Building the Field: Inside the Animal Law Practice Association with Cheryl Leahy

This is a new im- impetus from the Brooks Institute for Animal Law and Policy, and i- it's, it's going to train more and more lawyers who care about animals to start working for them, and finding their way to do that, maybe starting a new practice, maybe adding some animal law topics to the practice they're already in, maybe some other ideas as well.

And we need as many lawyers as we can get because it's my opinion that, I wouldn't say this if I didn't believe it, that lawyers are doing more than anybody right now to, uh, advance the cause. I, I, I think it's pretty important. So, uh, this is gonna help them, and it's just starting out. We have a few topics.

They're going to have 10 billion from what I can tell from their website, so it's exciting. And we're gonna talk about what they're doing so far and what the plans are.

Just a quick reminder about the Our Hen House podcast, Rising Anxieties Tuesdays, Hen Report Thursdays, long-form interview, this, uh, including this one, um, on Fridays.

Bonus for flock members comes out on Mondays. And we're a podcast, we're on YouTube. Please subscribe and hit like wherever you listen. And now, welcome, Cheryl.

Cheryl Leahy: Thank you. It's great to be back on, and unusual for me not talking about undercover investigations as I usually do.

Mariann Sullivan: Right. That, a whole new topic. Now you're talking about absolutely everything.

Cheryl Leahy: Right, right, the whole universe

Mariann Sullivan: Alright, let's start. I mean, I've, I've already, like, overwhelmed people and myself, so let's start with the elevator speech. What is the Animal Law Practice Association, and who is it for?

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah. So the Animal Law Practice Association, or ALPA we call it, is a program at the Brooks Institute for Animal Rights Law and Policy, which I'm sure many of your listeners are familiar with. Um, the ALPA program is focused on the practice of animal law, and it is basically looking at the question of how can we take the field from a few hundred lawyers that we have now?

What if we could make it a few thousand or tens of thousands? And how would-- how can we do that with high quality and mentorship and the written practical resources needed to take people from being interested in this work, but not really knowing how to get started or how to take it on, um, and get them to feel very confident in their skills, um, and do it well.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, and if this works, it could change everything. Alright, let's just get a, a, a brief description of the different aspects of the, um, of the association. First, tell us about the library. I mean, you alluded to it, but, but give us a little bit more on the library of written resources, and then we'll g- actually get into real specifics later on.

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah. So, so there's two basic parts of the anatomy of the program, right? One, as you just said, is the written resource library. So we are looking at topics that are very important to animal law, and I am very intentional with the definition of animal law being very broad, right? Not only laws that were intended or drafted or conceptualized to help animals, but laws that can impact animals.

So that really broadens the list of things, um, and I think reflects the creativity of the people who practice in this field and have over the years. So the written resource library is, again, practical resources take you kind of A to Z on a given topic through what do you need to know, what are the things...

You know, what is the law, what is the key cases, but also what do people practicing in this area have to say about it? What do they want you to know if you're coming into this newly or you want to be thinking maybe this is an area that generally you understand, but you have not looked at how to protect animal interests, how to think about the animal in this context.

Uh, so for example, we just did FOIA, which I'm sure we'll get into a little bit more, and we went all the way from, you know, preparing to file your FOIA requests all the way through to appeals and fee motions and everything. Um, we do like to really reflect, and it's very important to me that we have sort of the wisdom and the expertise reflected of the existing practitioners in the materials that we have.

But we'll also have things like checklists, templates, you know, sample case materials, filings, et cetera, really trying to equip people to do, um, this work.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I have only glimpsed at the FOIA section, uh, not with the eye of somebody who's actually gonna go out and file, file, file anything, but, you know, just to find out. It's, it's unbelievably detailed. I mean, it would be incredibly helpful. Um, and so the other... And we'll get into more of that later, but the other aspect, you said there were two, and the other is the community aspect, is that right?

Cheryl Leahy: Correct. So the idea is we have a ton of people already practicing animal law in some capacity. I mean, it's interesting when you think you, you kind of guess how many people are out there practicing animal law, you might think it's 100 or 200. My estimate right now is it's about 600 in the United States that are practicing animal law, um, significantly, if not full-time.

Um, so we're looking at building the networks first with that, that sort of practice experience represented, the mentorship that comes into that, the potential co-counsel, the cross-referral opportunities, um, you know, all of the kind of cross-pollination of ideas that can come with that. But then as we build, we wanna bring people in from non-animal law fields.

There are so many people out there who are interested in animal law. And what's so interesting to me, the more that I looked into this too, and talked with people, is that we started hearing the same concerns, questions, interest areas, regardless of whether the person had been practicing animal law for forty years, or were just getting into it now, right?

Whether they were experienced lawyers or not, right? They have the same kinds of interests, the same kinds of questions. We also started hearing from, like, law firms about what their associates wanna do for pro bono, saying animal law is very popular, even maybe the top area of interest. We heard from, um, you know, the, the state and local and the, the ABA TIPS Animal Law Committee that there's just so much interest in this area.

Most of those state and local bar associations or bar association sections or committees that focus on animal law do not include people who are practicing animal law, right? So they're just passionate about the issue. They wanna put their time in. I mean, lawyers are very busy. The fact that they're putting their time into volunteering to do this work or just wanting to learn more about it, I think really says a lot for how much interest there is.

So my opinion and the way we kind of look at this is there's a lot already out there. There's a lot of interest, there's a lot of talent and skill, and the things that lawyers already are doing in their-- whatever their practice discipline is, could be applied to animals in a way that is not really being, you know, kind of the opportunity is not being grasped at this time.

So we wanna be able to help that.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. You had mentioned before, like, that, that because of the work that's already been done by animal lawyers, there's, there's just been enormous amount of creativity, probably because people were forced to be creative ' cause the law is so unfriendly to animals, so you have to find ways in. But really, there, there are very few areas of the law that you cannot find some connection that would, that would, uh, benefit animals.

Um, so, so there are many, many, uh, not only people who might wanna help animals, but opportunities, no matter where their practice area is, that they might be able to do. Now, who is eligible to join? And I guess this is a good moment to just tell people how they can join.

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah. So you can go to the Animal Law Practice Association website, which is on the Brooks Institute page. Actually, if you just Google Animal Law Practice Association, it shows up. And it is free to join. Everything about being a member is free, all the resources, the networking support. Um, we will be building out a forum very soon.

We'll be just kind of continuing to build. We want to be kind of a central... We have a very non-competitive mindset. We're not trying to duplicate efforts. We're not trying to compete with anybody. We want to kind of platform what's going on. We want to be sort of that central hub for people. So all of that is, is available to you.

And yes, you just have to be a US licensed attorney who is either practicing animal law or interested in doing it in some capacity in a way that advances the interests of animals. So when you go to the-- probably the most work to get started is just filling out the application, which is the reason we are somewhat detailed in the application is because it's going to then be reflected on your profile page for other people to look at, and it will say, "Hey, I'm open to being contacted. I'm open to being a mentor," or, "I'm looking for a mentor. These are the areas of law that I practice. These are the types of cases that I've worked on. This is what I'm interested in." So it's up to you how detailed you want to be, but it's sort of like, here you go. Um, this is, this is who I am and who I'm looking to talk to.

Um, but baseline, want to help animals, and you're a lawyer that's licensed somewhere in the US.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, and I love it's... The point that you emphasize a lot in the material is this is not competitive. You're not trying to compete with any other organizations. You're trying to provide information for whoever is out there, uh, who, who wants to use it. But we haven't gotten to the most important question yet, and I think this is the question that drives a lot of, of what you're doing here. Can you make a living?

Cheryl Leahy: Every single person...

Mariann Sullivan: As your grandmother used to say," but can you make a living?"

Cheryl Leahy: Right. right. Is this a real job? Like, every single person I talk to, so I talk to many, many people, you know, from the inception of the program to now, about what we could do to be helpful. You know, I'm al- we're always sort of open to feedback. You know, what are the ideas that are going on?

Why aren't there, you know, more people practicing in this area? What are the barriers? 100% of the people said, "There aren't enough jobs. How do you make money doing this? What is, what is the formula that works," right? And I think we have to recognize, again, if we look at animal law, the-- define it broadly, that there are a lot of people already doing it.

Nobody has to do this from whole cloth. You can, right? There's still enough opportunity to be creative, but 100%, unequivocally, the answer is yes, you can make a living practicing animal law. Um, so this practice models module that we are in the very end editing stages of now ha- was meant to be a very detailed assessment of how does one, you know, actually make money, and what are the business models that, um, can kind of marry the meaningful work for animals with a sustainable and sometimes even lucrative law career.

I think there's a big myth that people have that animal law is practiced only in pro bono context or only as nonprofit or sort of s- you know, solo or boutique animal law firms. That's not true. There's animal law being practiced in every single type of legal setting, in every role you can think of, and at every income level, at every risk appetite, at every level of kind of, you know, all the way from formulaic to very novel and creative, right?

It, it comes down to you have to know yourself, and you have to know what kind of your bottom lines are, and we give you a lot of guidance in how you kind of go through that process.

Mariann Sullivan: And you're not just talking about somebody who wants to go out and start their own firm. I mean, you can be in big law and want to stay in big law and make the big bucks, and you can, you can take your pro bono cases. But I think the point that you make so strongly is, no matter what size your firm is, there are paying, potentially paying animal law cases that people need lawyers for that you, uh, can expand your practice, y- you know, without, like, learning an entirely new area of law.

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah, and I, and I will even go further than that. I'll say let's take... And if we think about this as a pie chart, right, you would say there are cases that sort of your private, what I would call a community or general public demand, right? That's a big, uh, wedge of the pie. Um, you have your impact litigation that's usually done by nonprofits, but also hand-in-hand with private attorneys.

I mean, that's how impact litigation is done. And you have, like you say, pro bono. You have some people working inside big law firms making, you know, big law money doing animal law, not pro bono, right? But let's look just for a moment at that wedge of public demand, let's call it. It is very clear, um, based on talking with the people who live this, this is their lived reality, right?

That there is way more demand than can be filled, um, in that particular area. So everybody that we talked to who was a small or solo animal law office, um, and, you know, let's park the question of we're not just talking about that, but for this particular wedge Everybody said they get abou- about a thousand inquiries a year.

Now, there are not, there's not even one of those in every state, right? But a thous- let's assume for the sake of just conservative estimate that there's about a thousand inquiries that would come in in each state, um, every year. They're only... Those lawyers are only able to take a tiny handful of that.

It's, you know, a couple percent that they can even take on. And by the way, just as a little asterisk here from a business model point of view, they all said, "If you're gonna do that, you have to charge for your consultations because it's a huge percentage of your time." Um, and you are really providing value, and you're really adding something, um, you know, to those inquiries because a lot of those people would not realize that the law is not really gonna help them.

It's not gonna be an ROI. But a lot of people do wanna go forward and pay to be able to... for the principle of it, right? They, you know, they're upset about what's happened, and it is a real, you know, problem and injustice. So what we know is, let's say there's fifty thousand cases. Let's say nearly all of them are not being handled.

They don't even get to an attorney, um, let alone go through the process of, of a full-blown engagement. Now, um, we also know for those types of cases, there's about three, uh, matter types that come in the door that, that roughly speaking comprise about eighty percent of the inquiries. So that would be, uh, dog bites, pet custody, and vet malpractice, and what I'll call like similar torts and contract issues.

So three, three things. Those areas, they are certainly specialized areas, but they are not impossible to learn. They're not that hard to learn. We are, we are in the editing stage of our dog bite stuff, and we're gonna be doing vet malpractice next and, you know, we're gonna... We're fr- front-loading some of these high-demand areas as we've learned this.

But there's also a finite list of the remainder of types of matters that come in, maybe some service dog stuff, maybe some landlord-tenant stuff, right? So it is not that hard to start incorporating these types of matters into either a f- a full-time animal law practice or a practice that's doing other things and wants to take on animal law cases.

So I mean, a family law practice that wants to take on pet custody, right? You know,

Mariann Sullivan: I'm thinking particularly of, of a landlord-tenant firm, which I don't know, maybe it's not the same everywhere, but in New York City, that, that is a really specialized field. You know, L and T lawyers, that's what they do. But it's really helpful for, for them to, rather than an animal law firm bringing in l- landlord-tenant, which in a place like that might be hard, l- for landlord-tenant firms to bring in animal law cases, that's really powerful.

Cheryl Leahy: And what I would really love to be able to do, the value I'd really love to see ALPA providing, is educating those attorneys who are already really good at what they do about how to take the animal's interest into account, how to practice in a way that is looking at, you know, sort of improving the lot of animals, um, through this type of practice.

It's so much more efficient to take somebody who, you know, already has the legal skills, they already know how to be a lawyer, they're already sort of set up to do that, um, and say to them, "You care about animals." I mean, you know, I don't think we have a values mismatch in our society and our world, right?

And not to get, like, philosophical here, but, like, most people care about animals, right? It's like 97% of the population around the world, no matter how you do it, right? So I, I think our barriers are not related to values. They're related to just norms and practices and the sort of mundane things that we have to star- start lowering the barriers of entry for.

But the, the one real takeaway point is that there is way more demand in terms of these public sort of, you know, matters that come than is being met. Um, so that's a huge area of opportunity.

Mariann Sullivan: I wanted to say one more thing too, just cause people might not be aware, but when you were talking about dog bite cases, I would imagine a lot of the ones that you're talking about people m- might wanna take, that people don't even know this whole part of the dog bite issue exists, are the dangerous dog hearings. It's not so much like whose, y- homeowner's insurance is gonna have to pay for the bite, it's more what's gonna happen to the dog?

Cheryl Leahy: Well, let me tell you, I knew nothing about dog bite law before I started doing this particular research. I talked to a lot of people who are really the experts on this and did a lot of research, and I have now, I am now radicalized on this topic, right? Because I don't think the law for dogs is fair to the dogs.

I think that dogs end up... I mean, they end up getting sort of thrown under the bus. They become kind of, you know, a vehicle for people, you know, increasing the amount of dollar, uh, recovery on there. But I will say... So yeah, so the sort of basics is you have the dangerous dog and similar, like vicious dog, nuisance dog hearings and determinations.

There's a lot of opportunity for animal lawyers to come in, especially at the initial hearing level because there are some... We're hearing, for example, Los Angeles, you'll get a ticket, like some... Let's say you have a dog, your dog bites somebody. You'll get a ticket from animal control, and it will say, um, "Your dog has been determined to be dangerous. Uh, you, you don't need an, a lawyer, but you can come and appeal that." Well, it's not actually an appeal. It's just the initial hearing, but there're being-

Mariann Sullivan: And determined by whom?

Cheryl Leahy: Right. Right. I mean, the level of just the constitutional issues that arise, the fact that people have no idea that they should get an attorney, right?

And some of the basic evidence things that... I mean, I could tell you stories, you know, another time about just how bad this ends up working out. And the reality is, when an attorney takes on a dangerous dog matter for the first time, they are going to be depressed at the end of it, right? They're gonna be blindsided by how negative the room is, right?

It feels like mob justice a little bit. Everybody wants to go after the dog, and we can help equip people to really understand how to get around that and how to do this well. Now, the nice thing is, about the dog bite landscape, is that most dog bites do not end up in dangerous dog hearings, but when they do, the likelihood that that's something either draco- draconian restrictions on the dog, right?

Like these, you know, cages and they can't walk by the other person's house, and there's, you know, all these fences and stuff like that, or death, right? That become as part of it

Mariann Sullivan: people have to get liability insurance that doesn't exist

Cheryl Leahy: Okay, I love that. Okay, love... That's a wonderful segue because my biggest takeaway from this is that everybody who cares about dogs, everybody who is part of the landscape in some way, that would be personal injury plaintiffs' attorneys, defense attorneys for the insurance companies, people who are in it for the animals, you know, specifically, right?

If you, if... Dog owners, advocacy organizations, right? Anybody who is a stakeholder in the dog issue or the dog bite issue should be getting do- should be understanding and educating people about dog bite liability insurance, which is a standalone policy that is able, that is, covers animals regardless of breed, and it will cover a dog that has been determined to be dangerous.

So what we have to look at with the civil situation, so we, we contrast the dangerous dog cases, which are directly implicating the, you know, outcome for the dog, but are a smaller number, with a huge number of civil dog bite matters, which are usually handled, as you say, by the homeowners' insurance attorneys versus a, a, a personal injury attorney on the plaintiff's side.

Um, but there are opportunities for private animal lawyers to come in as well. Uh, but what happens is we have seen in the last, like, 15 years, something like a 200-something percent increase in the number of these cases and the dollar amounts of these cases. So there is a real system that knows exactly how to get money out of these, um, insurance companies.

And so then the insurance company might settle, it might not even go to a legal matter, right? But the insurance company might settle this, and then they, they don't cover the person. They might even take their entire homeowners insurance away, but they certainly are not, almost certainly, are not gonna cover the dog.

So now that dog owner, at the end of the day, has to decide, you know, are they gonna be risking financial ruin,

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah

Cheryl Leahy: um, or are they gonna get rid of their animal? And then what happens to their animal when they're getting rid of a do- a dog that has a bite history, right? So, um, the, the answer to all of that, it's a win-win for everybody in this picture, is this specialized liability insurance, which most people know nothing about.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. I, I didn't know anything about it. I'm, I'm, I'm not sure the last time I talked about this it actually even existed. That's really good news, actually. Um, all right. We, we have already gone off on five tangents, um, so I wanna talk about one of the topics that you've actually already focused on, and it was one that you mentioned.

And the materials here are... i, I glanced at them and they're unbelievable, and that's the, the FOIA, Freedom of Information Act, and state public records laws, mini

FOIAs. Um, and they're... This is now live. Anybody who wants to can join, uh, and, and, and get all of these materials. Tell us what, what they'll find.

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah. So I mentioned it's meant to be kind of like a A to Z, here's the, all the way from before you file all the way through the process, and we, we incorporated every exemption, every, you know, piece of how do you do administrative appeals, how do you, you know, do a fee motion, et cetera. So it, it's meant to be, I don't expect people are just gonna sit down and read it like a book.

I expect them to look at it more what they need, right?

Mariann Sullivan: reading.

Cheryl Leahy: Yes, yes. Although I would love it if you did, and then you can tell me all your, what you think about it. But, um, you know, a few things really stood out for me with FOIA. Um, unlike some other areas that, that we are covering and that we will be covering, um, it's a fairly easy on-ramp, right?

It's not that hard to learn. A lot of us who are in the animal law field are generally in sort of related fields, feel like we have some skill just from doing this in our day-to-day lives, right? Filing these, you know, uh, requests and kinda doing the administrative appeal process stuff. But it, you, you can, with very little investment, you can learn the basics of FOIA, and then you can get really interesting.

It can get really complex, and you can get really strategic about it after it. One thing that I, I thought was fascinating was your Animal Law podcast episode about Project of the People, um, which I think there's, that's super interesting what they're doing, which is essentially exposing the kind of collaboration between the industry and the government agencies.

Um, I think there's, there's probably a lot more opportunity to do that, but that's a great example of kind of master class FOIA work.

Another thing that I think is a really nice thing about FOIA, which is somewhat unusual, is that the law is so well-worn about fee recovery that it can really provide a nice entry point or a portion of a practice where people can start getting good at this and start being able to fairly reliably make money on these cases.

Um, but, you know, I think what's so interesting, if you look at the way FOIA has been used by the animal protection movement, you see two big things coming out of it, right? One is the animal protection movement is excellent at this. The skills that the animal protection movement has been forced to develop, right?

Because of the industry, uh, really not wanting the agencies to let you see what's going on, um, has, has really advanced FOIA law. And, uh, there are some agencies that most of their, uh, requests coming, are coming from animal protection organizations. Um, and then the other piece of it to me is, as a result of that, you see all of this industry influence in how FOIA requests are handled by the agencies.

So you'll see, like, the kinds of, of bases for denying things, the kinds of training that the agencies are giving their FOIA officers is actually just being taught directly by these industry groups. Um, so that's-- I think there's some challenge opportunities there, but it's also, to me, just very enlightening.

I think it says a lot about the impact of the movement, um, and the, kind of the efforts that have been made and what can be built on from there. Regardless of whether you think of yourself as sort of an activist attorney or not, right? Like, there's just so much there.

Mariann Sullivan: Well, who would your clients be?

Cheryl Leahy: Uh, nonprofits, journalists, um, individual activists.

I mean, one thing, I think there's a lot of opportunity in journalism. Um, I've, I've talked with... I had a great conversation, um, with Denise at Sentient Media about all of the FOIA work, so that's their attorney there, um, about all of the, you know, reporters that they work with, and they have all these big networks of people, and you know, the-- I think there's a lot of value that collaborations between lawyers and journalists can provide, especially investigative journalists.

I also think that's low-hanging fruit for more collaboration between lawyers and investigative journalists on things like litigation, because I don't think a lot of relationships are being developed there that could. So that may be like sort of an entry point to doing so.

Mariann Sullivan: That is, uh, that is really a great incentive. Um, all right. So in addition to FOIA, you have an unbelievably long list of prospective topics. Who is sh- are you sitting down and doing all of this, Sheryl? Like, who's, who's putting all of this together? It's like, it's like like you could go to law school for 10 years to figure out everything that's in here!

everything that's we're, We have a lovely help, right? So we are actually, Brooks Institute is wonderful, is, is investing the kind of resources and thought into this that I think is really great. Uh, so I am the director of the program. We also have a full-time attorney who is helping with this research. His name is John.

Cheryl Leahy: He's wonderful, too. We have a, a great advisory committee who comes in and looks at stuff and sort of guides us on things. And then we have some pro bono help, and we have some contractor and student help. So we're really putting a lot... It doesn't... I, I'll just say, e- everything I just said, when you go look at the website and you're like, "Oh, there's only a couple of, of, uh, things already published," I'll say always we have thousands more documents sitting around in folders that, that are not at the point of being polished.

So always feel free to use us like a law librarian, right? Like, "Hey, do you have anything on this?"

Mariann Sullivan: Okay

Cheryl Leahy: people can definitely reach out, you know, reach out to us and say, "I'm interested in this topic. Who should I talk to? Who should I meet?" Right? So there's, as we're building, there, you know, you're not gonna see immediately, you know, this huge kind of, you know, library of content, but we will be getting there, and we always have more than we have.

Mariann Sullivan: And you know, uh, I mean, the, the best thing for any lawyer of course is to, is to get the, the, the, the document that somebody's already filed and, not like anybody writes anything from from the beginning, so to having available other, other, um, documents in, in similar cases that you can tweak is just like the most valuable thing ever.

Cheryl Leahy: I 100% agree with that, and I'm really trying to make sure that in our library we do reflect it, like we have actual briefs that are filed and things like that. But I also really want to make sure to encourage people if they are doing interesting work or they know of interesting work that's being done, that it should be reflected.

I mean, one thing that I felt, you know, over the last, whatever, 20 years, is that there was so much cool things happening, you know, on the animal law... we j- we talked about the creativity and in- innovation in this field, and I always felt like I almost learned about some of this stuff just by accident, right?

Mariann Sullivan: Or possibly by listening to the Animal Law Podcast.

Cheryl Leahy: Of course. Of course, right? I put a lot of effort into this. Yeah

Mariann Sullivan: I mean, actually the reason I said that is 'cause I felt exactly the same way. There's all this stuff going on and, and who, who knows... You know, you don't even know about it. It's not like there's, there's a, a local newspaper that covers animal law.

Cheryl Leahy: Right. And I think a lot of, you know, we're a little bit orphans as animal lawyers, both in the animal protection movement and in the field of law, right? Nobody really knows to, what to make of it, which actually has a nice side effect, which is that I think the animal law community is one of the nicest, most supportive communities out there, right?

'Cause we on, we like to talk shop with each other. We're really happy to be helpful to each other, right? So I'm hoping that ALPA can be a real place for that. Um, but I do think the kinds of the level of substance and the level of why does this matter, what kind of strategy did this reflect, often does get lost, right?

So I, I... It's important to me to reflect the kinds of work that's been done, what's worked, what hasn't worked, what can be built upon. Hey, you know, tell, come tell me, like, I've always wondered why animal law hasn't tried this, right? You know, let's look into that more. And I think being able-- So we're directly inviting people to share their own work with us or to let us know about the work of other people, um, to make sure that that's all reflected.

I mean, just also a little plug for Brooks Institute, you know, we have the Digest and, and that I think is meant to be a pretty comprehensive way of catching what's going on. So absolutely, you know, subscribe to the Digest if you're not subscribed. But the idea of let's in- integrate the work that's being done into these topics so that they're actionable.

It's all about practice. I really don't wanna feel like we're just writing another textbook, right? So being able to, to say, "Hey, did you know so-and-so is doing this? Uh, maybe we could try it over in this context. Maybe we should talk to this other attorney who knows nothing about animal law, but is really good at this other field, and we could work together on that."

I think that's kind of where the magic happens. I think that's where we're gonna see not just the growth and expansion of the practice of animal law, but we're gonna see respect going across different fields of animal law and relationships being built, built that are gonna start, you know, building these formulas that are replicable.

Mariann Sullivan: I love that. And so important for people who are either doing solo or maybe they're the only person in their firm. Like,

Cheryl Leahy: Mm-hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: know, talking about cases is like how they get done. I

is

you get new ideas. So the fact that this forum kind of exists, this informal forum. I mean, you also have a formal forum as well as an informal forum,

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah. Well, I will say something about that isolation point you made. So I, I mentioned when I talked to-- everybody that I talked to wanted to know how do you make money doing animal law. The other huge thing that came up was feeling isolated. And it, it's surprising because, um, you know, a lot of these people are in communities that you'd expect them not to particularly feel isolated.

Some of them are. Some of them are like, "I'm the only person in my state who cares about this", right? Or like, "I started this thing just to get people together to talk about this because I don't have anybody to talk about it-- with it." But it's so interesting because there are hundreds of us out there who may have that same feeling of isolation.

Um, and then the third thing that came up over and over and over again was, "I wanna make sure that the work is high quality. I don't want the dabbler problem." And that, as I mentioned, you know, there was a lot of similarity across people regardless of skill level, regardless of experience, regardless of level of, of experience in animal law versus other types of law, they all care about that, right?

They all-- either they are worried they're gonna screw it up or they're worried somebody else is gonna screw up something that they understand and know about. So everybody wants to help each other. Um, the number of people who've said to me, "Man, I wish I, I had somebody really committed that I could just mentor and teach all these things I learned the hard way", um, you know, it's out there.

So you know, the-- it's almost like, you know, I-- in the beginning, I was sort of saying, you know those, those pictures where they just combine a whole bunch of faces and then you end up with like sort of this pleasant looking face at the end that's sort of generic looking. It's-- that's what's going on here.

It's we have these key features that are just showing up. Everybody's individual, everybody has their own story, right? And their own priorities and individual sc- characteristics and stuff, but they all agree on these few basic things, which I think we can really build from

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. I mean, I think there's a real fear of, of what you call dabblers, or just people's fear of getting things wrong, 'cause there aren't that many cases litigated, so each one b- becomes an important precedent. You know,

Cheryl Leahy: Mm-hmm

Mariann Sullivan: like, if, if a precedent is made in a landlord-tenant case in another kind of situation, there are 10 billion cases on, on that topic.

But, but there aren't that many of ours, so each case is ... Each decision in each case can, can really have an impact, so it is really important to get things right and, and to be communicating. You know, the, the next thing I wanna talk about, and, and I wanna spend some time on it, but this is your next practice area, and it's not actually a practice area. Um, it's, it's about the whole, uh, topic of, of practice areas, the whole field perhaps. And, and, like, c- letting people ... It's an overview of, of rather than the substantive law, you're talking about the kinds of work that people can do, and that's going to be your next published, uh, piece, right?

Cheryl Leahy: That's, that's in final editing stage now, and I learned a ton in doing this process. It was important to me to represent not just the sort of extant field, but also what the work that has been done shows us about additional possibilities and opportunities, right? So, you know, there's still, like I said, tons of room for creativity, but there's also tons of room for people who are gonna be deep and narrow on certain things.

Um, so yeah, one thing that, you know, it, it's gonna end up being kind of long and unwieldy, sort of like law yeah, but I think you can choose the things that are, that are important and interesting to you. Um, there are ways to approach how to make money, the question of how to make money doing animal law, or what is the practice models that support animal law, by s- first looking at what areas of law are people making money in anywhere, and how, and what does it take to do that, right?

So I said one way of doing this would be taking on the sort of public demand case areas which, you know, you know the few topics you need to wr- to learn, and that's sort of a finite list. Another area of doing this would be s- be to say, where are the cases where, you know, there are significant attorney's fee recovery?

Where are people making a lot of money? Large class actions, lar- you know, like, there's... Like, we list a number of things, False Claims Act, SEC stuff, uh, whistleblower law in general. Antitrust law has a huge interesting, you know, connection and history with this, and just continues to grow. Um, there is a way, if you are the kind of person who has the commitment and s- somewhat sort of an intrepid nature here, of bringing those areas into animal law, I mean, it could be the thing that starts a whole nother subfield within animal law, and you can end up having the kind of, you know, career satisfaction, the level of intellectual depth, the level of, you know, kind of innovative work, and you can make quite a bit of money.

So that's one way to do it, is to become highly specialized. So we have a whole section in that that talks about the laws that you can get recovery, whether attorney's fee recovery, um, or, like, enhanced damages and stuff. And some of that is the big federal statutes I just mentioned. Some of it is, you know, tort law in certain states, right?

Like, the, the fact that animals can touch everything is helpful here, because maybe we just switch the inquiry and start with, what are laws out there that are working,

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah,

Cheryl Leahy: are sustainable?

Mariann Sullivan: Recovery for lawyers. I mean, that, that, that's, uh, that's so important. I know nothing about it, having always had a job with, you know, the government, what would I know about making money? It was fascinating, and I do lo- I mean, though it wasn't the focus, the only focus, but I too- I just have always thought the False Claims Act has so much potential, especially, like, in research and the amount of, of government funding that goes into unbelievably bullshit research, and unbelievably bullshit everything.

Like, o- on so many different levels, I, I just would love to see s- like, people really seriously... I mean, I know there have been a number of False Claims Act cases, but for so- I mean, and that's serious money if you win.

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah. I mean, I don't, I don't mean to belabor the point, but I feel like false claims is, is a good illustration of kind of this, this phenomenon, right? Or this potential here. So most people who are bringing false claims act cases are doing so for healthcare fraud, right? There are people who are professional relators.

Um, there's extremely detailed law on this, right? They kind of know what they're doing. The law as written on the page applies to what we're doing, and like you said, there's been a good handful of cases that have, have interesting outcomes. Like, you know, I loved working on false claims act cases. A lot of what it became was convincing people who knew this area of law that this application of it was legitimate, right?

And then once you build those relationships, you can go back to them again and, you know, build more relationships around it, right? So I think you can see that kind of, okay, well, it's working in this area. There's no reason, you know, kind of on the face of the statute, that it should be limited to healthcare or that, you know, just empirically speaking,

Mariann Sullivan: You cheat

the government in any way whatsoever,

like,

Cheryl Leahy: right?

Mariann Sullivan: it's not subject relevant

Cheryl Leahy: So it's just a question of doing the work to build sort of brick by brick the way of doing that

Mariann Sullivan: And you borrow standing from the government. It's,

kind

of miraculous.

Cheryl Leahy: You get to stand in the shoes of the government. Yeah, I mean, there's all these really interesting things, very old, I mean, Latin terms and all that stuff. But I think th- th- it is not the only example of this kind of thing.

I mean, you could say the same thing about RICO. You know, there's other things out there where you could do that. Now, I, th- I will say, and this is related to this, but I just wanna make sure to emphasize this because if there was one flashing neon sign thing that came out of the research that I did on...

And that we all, you know, worked on with a lot of, of, uh, feedback and kind of direction and, and help. It is the third-party litigation funding issue, and it, it popped into my mind when you said, "Well, you know, I, I've worked for the government. I don't, I don't really have s- a lot of familiarity with how the money change, you know, kind of works in this."

And I think that's...

Mariann Sullivan: I have none. Please go into it. You know

Cheryl Leahy: And I think that's the case with, you know, those of us like me who are nonprofits are most our background, right? So, um, there are huge private equity, you know, funds out there that will invest in litigation. Um, most people know that that exists, but we put a lot of kind of depth into it because I think this is something that has huge potential.

Now, again, go back to the pie chart. There's a relatively narrow slice of cases that are money cases, right? Cases where for the m- for, you know, top line, you actually can make significant money or recovery on these cases. For those cases however, I think third-party litigation funding, which is the, the generalized term for these investors, has huge potential.

So it's about $15 billion right now is invested in litigation in the United States, mostly on the plaintiff side. I

Mariann Sullivan: are just investors who wanna make money and see that there's a lawsuit, and they can provide the funds to bring the lawsuit, and then they get, they get something back.

Cheryl Leahy: And you don't have to pay it back unless you recover. And it comes almost in all cases, it comes out of the client's portion. So let's say you have a class action, you're still gonna get your attorney's fees. It's gonna come out of the client's portion of the recovery. Now, just to be clear, right, these people are in it to make money, like you said.

But to me,

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah

Cheryl Leahy: if you were... I mean, my opinion on this is, and I'm sure others can differ, if you're in a law firm, the, the cost-benefit analysis looks something like this. This case is gonna cost, let's say, $3 million. Does, does the firm put that up so then they get the entire recovery on the back end? If you are in a, a small solo environment or a nonprofit environment, the, the question of whether you can put up that $3 million isn't even on the table, right?

So it doesn't become an issue of, well, we could have gotten the whole recovery, right? 'Cause they're gonna get, whatever, 4X or 3X their investment if you do recover. It becomes a question of, we can't bring this case unless we've raised all this money. So now it's just play money, right? It's just something that you can bring in.

There's no downside. And what I've learned from talking with people, you know, kind of on both sides of this is that it's often cultural, right? So the, the, uh, boards of nonprofits are like, "Do we really wanna bring an investor in?" But for litigation, I don't really see much of a downside. If it's the right case, and this could be the thing that actually gets it up and off the ground, there is...

You don't pay them back unless that money comes in, right? So how are you, um, you know, how are you sort of seeing a major downside to that? Now, I will, I will say two important things, 'cause again, this is like my neon sign thing. Like, if I might... You know, if I had, like, elevator pitch with, with just everybody who's involved in animal law, right?

I want them to know that this exists. So yes, it's money cases. There are some case- some funds, smaller funds, that are, um, also looking at im- impact, like public interest impact. So you can, you can sometimes balance it out that way. It's not as aggressive.

Mariann Sullivan: get paid?

Cheryl Leahy: There's, there's still an investment. It's still a what they call non-recourse.

Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: It's just not as,

Cheryl Leahy: It's not as

Mariann Sullivan: if your interest is solely the money

Cheryl Leahy: Correct. And the, and the terms are less unbalanced, right?

Mariann Sullivan: Okay.

Cheryl Leahy: So the other thing is-

Mariann Sullivan: Are they c- I'm sorry.

Cheryl Leahy: I think, I'm sorry.

Mariann Sullivan: just so

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: Money.

Cheryl Leahy: funny. Me too.

Mariann Sullivan: Are, are they, like, are, are investment firms that are doing that, are they, are they cause motivated or are they just this is just another way to make money for them and they happen to, like, be willing to the, fund this kind? Or do they actually have a, uh, have an interest in the cause?

Cheryl Leahy: Most, most of the money is fully money, you know, just, just an investment. For the funds that are, that have that public interest component as part, as one of the factors they consider, they are sometimes living inside a larger fund. So it's a dedicated amount of money that is, is meant to go with these sort of, let's say, public interest type cases or impact litigation type cases.

Mariann Sullivan: It's an interesting investment for people, I mean, not like us, who have loads of money and who are looking to put forward animals, y- you know, who care about animals or whatever other cause it is, but care about animals and are looking for interesting ways. And, and law, I think, is one of the most interesting ways to be funding lawsuits.

It's, it's

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah. Th-

Mariann Sullivan: can be enormous

Cheryl Leahy: There are smaller ones out there who are more mission-minded, but the vast majority of that money, that 15 billion, is coming through these private equity funds. Now, having done quite a bit of fundraising over the years, the... my initial thought was, well, is it... Does... Is it... The reality of getting, like, a large donor is a lot of relationship building.

There's a lot of time that it takes to sort of sit down and find the match and all that kind of stuff. So it takes time. You have to be introduced. There's, you know, there's a whole process to go into fundraising, which seems like a big uphill battle. When it comes to these third-party litigation funders, th- it's not like that at all.

They will talk to you tomorrow, right? Like, if you... You're just gonna send them your little write-up. They're gonna ask for more information if they want it, and then they're gonna do a lot of analysis

Mariann Sullivan: Mm-hmm.

Cheryl Leahy: of your case. They're gonna benchmark your case compared to other cases. They're gonna find a, a range that they think you're gonna recover.

They're gonna come back to you and say, "Here are your weaknesses." You know, even if they don't go forward with the investment, they're gonna tell you, like, with pretty, you know, clear analysis what it was that was the problem. So it's very different in terms of how, you know, the, the actual kind of financial, um, incentives and the, the process itself is very different than raising philanthropic funding.

And very useful. Mm-hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: like, if they tell you everything that's wrong with your case,

Cheryl Leahy: Exactly.

Mariann Sullivan: information.

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah, I

Mariann Sullivan: if

Cheryl Leahy: live in a bubble a little bit, right? Like, we all wanna do these big cases where

Mariann Sullivan: Right.

Cheryl Leahy: you know, there's these sort of Hail Mary cases, and then they can kind of bring us to Earth too.

Mariann Sullivan: Right. Yeah. Or if they're enthusiastic about it, that must be quite a shot in the arm, like, 'cause

they're actually not in it for the animals, they're just in it for the money. That's a really good sign.

Cheryl Leahy: Right. Right. And I will say one more thing, and this is a little nuanced, but again, for the Animal Law Podcast audience, I think this is useful to know. Even if you are not a big firm that's gonna be trying to make tons and tons of money, right, on their cases, like y- you know, your typical solo is not gonna be handling like a large class action by themselves, right, for example.

You can still have eligibility for these kinds of funders, um, because some of them will do something called bundling, where even though, um... I, you know, I mentioned before it doesn't come out of the attorney's fees portion of the case. There's ethics issues there. In this bundling setup, they kind of get around it.

So like let's say you have a bunch of small cases, but they, but they add up, and they add up to the thresh- the low threshold of what these funds will, will invest in. You can say, "I have... hey, I have 20 cases that I expect each of them to bring in, you know, $100,000", or whatever. They w- can pay you upfront. You can estimate your whole attorney's fee amount for those 20 cases, and they will evaluate them as a bundle and pay those attorney's fees.

So, so that's, you know, kind

Mariann Sullivan: Wow

Cheryl Leahy: for smaller, you know, uh, solos, small firms, and smaller types of cases. So I just think it's something... We go into a lot of depth about it. I don't need to keep going on and on, but I do. Once I get started, I really like this topic. Um, but we do try to get you up to speed in our materials, um, to see if there's, you know, if it's something worth, you know, the given reader evaluating.

Mariann Sullivan: needs to know this, whether they do it

or not. They need to know what choices they have and what choices they should make. And, uh, I mean, as you s- obviously, if you're solo, that makes it harder, but the decision is yours. But even if you're at a firm, if it's something within your subject area and, um, you're, you're not going to the firm asking, "Can you do this pro bono opportunity?"

You're going to the firm saying, saying, "There's this case here, and this is the way we can fund it." I mean, that's a lot more attractive to most firms.

Cheryl Leahy: I think co-counsel is a huge through line in general in this practice models question, but certainly if you come, you know, if you're a smaller outlet and you need to go co-counsel with a larger firm and you come with your own funding, I mean, that makes a huge difference. Um, I, I just think in general, bottom line on this to me is there's already $15 billion being invested in general.

Animal law is really not taking advantage of that. There might be a tiny, tiny percent of, percentage of that that's going to animal related cases, but I think with some education we can start taking more advantage of it.

Mariann Sullivan: Do you think this would work even at large firms? I

Cheryl Leahy: Oh, yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: that... Yeah

Cheryl Leahy: I mean, y- you have to realize this is how a lot of litigation is being funded now,

Mariann Sullivan: I,

Cheryl Leahy: So

Mariann Sullivan: I feel very stupid. Um, as usual, I know

Cheryl Leahy: it was very eye-opening to me.

Mariann Sullivan: Follow the money. Just

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah

Mariann Sullivan: forget that. All right, so what about pro bono? I mean, I, I assume you're not against it, you're just saying there's lots of other opportunities. What kind of pro bono cases are firms likely to be willing to take on?

Cheryl Leahy: Well, so pro bono obviously is a huge engine of animal law. I mean, there's a ton of people out there doing pro bono at every level and size. Um, and, you know, of course, it's highly, highly, um, valuable. One thing that I think is kinda cool that I hadn't thought of until recently, I-- there's, there's a lawyer who's a member who said to me, "I wanna just start taking on animal law cases, but I'm not confident enough yet to charge people."

So she's doing them pro bono, and then she came back, and she said, "Hey, I just settled, like, three of my five cases. Now I'm gonna start charging people."

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, seriously.

Cheryl Leahy: Fun. Um, but yeah. I mean, the larger firms obviously can, can really be kind of strategically powerful. Like, i-in, in the broader picture, right, you can really kind of use, um, larger firms' pro bono work in a strategic way.

For example, I think in the FOIA context, my experience has been if you're having trouble, you know, getting your documents, putting it on a letterhead of a huge firm, which is certainly something they may be willing to do,

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah

Cheryl Leahy: you forward in a way that, you know, can-- I mean, also highly specialized work. I mean, things like trademark, like those sorts of things.

Like, that can be really excellent at a, at a major firm. The area that tends to be a little harder is litigation, especially when they're actually, you know, attorneys of record on the litigation, um, for conflict reasons and a lot of it for positional conflict reasons. But there is so much else out there.

I mean, you know, like in-house counsel type work and, um, you know, look at ADP. They have hundreds of clients where they're doing-

Mariann Sullivan: Animal Defense Partnership

Cheryl Leahy: All the best clients. Right. Right, and that's-- they're providing a ton of pro bono work. Hundreds of clients, and they're fairly narrow. I mean, they're doing basically in-house counsel work, right?

And they're fairly narrow, and they have way more demand, um, than you might have guessed. So it is out there, and it is also a nice way, I think, to build relationships and for people to sort of try out animal law when they may not know exactly where they wanna jump in.

Mariann Sullivan: Uh, and you also talk a little bit about government jobs, academia. I don't think we have, we have time to go into all that unless there's something in particular you wanna talk about. But I just wanna make sure that people understand there, there are... Like, you really run the, the gamut of all the possible opportunities you might wanna be able to do. Um, uh, but one thing that you mentioned that I don't know what they are, and you said they were really important, so I'm gonna ask you what they are. What are legal incubators?

Cheryl Leahy: Okay, so it-- so there's about sixty legal incubators in United States. We do not have one for animal law. Um, and I just sort of threw it in there to just spark an idea. You know, I think, you know, of, of, of maybe somebody should put one like this together. But basically, it's what you might expect when hearing the word incubator.

It's like a business incubator. It gives training resources, um, especially to an underserved area, to allow lawyers to get the kind of, you know, management, mentorship, um, you know, office space even if there's a variety of them. The ABA has a guide on them. Um, and it gets you up and off the ground. So the, the traditional incubator is gonna be like basically legal aid.

Um, and you're gonna, you're gonna be given the, the cases, and you're gonna be given, you know, probably office space and management and some of the operational support to just learn the law that way, take on cases, figure out how to be a lawyer. Um, and I just sort of, you know, was very intrigued when I learned about the existence of incubators and wondered, why haven't we really tried this, um, in animal law?

What would it look like? I mean, there's a lot of, a variety among them. Um, knowing that there are some really different cultural mindsets, um, to come into animal law and some really different specific skills to come into animal law, you could imagine designing an incubator to address and anticipate those things so people don't either just sit on the sidelines scared to start or start and get, you know, burned out or feel like they're not, you know, able to sustain themselves.

So I, I put that in there to hopefully spark thinking about it.

Mariann Sullivan: Well, it sparked my interest even though I didn't know what it was.

Cheryl Leahy: 60.

Mariann Sullivan: Sorry?

Cheryl Leahy: I said 60. There's already 60 out there, right? So

Mariann Sullivan: We need one.

We definitely do, now that I've heard of it. You know, one thing that's weird about animal law, like we always talk about it as a practice area, but let's face it, it's not exactly a practice area.

It like encompasses every possible practice area. So, so your area of specialty in your legal work, assuming, you have a specialty, and virtually every- I mean, even the smallest firms, even the solos have some specialties because there's only so much you can do 'cause there's a lot of law, and no matter what you're doing, if you're gonna be good at things, you have to specialize. So another thing that you talked about was having a large dedicated animal law firm. Like, how would that work? Like, like that would cover every possible specialty. Would... Are we having a different department for each of those things? How does that work?

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah, I mean, th- that one's a little controversial. That was also meant to be somewhat, you know, kind of evocative. Um, I, I expect it to be a situation where, uh, the way that I picture it working is there's a lot of people who were basically solos who took on a variety of these types of cases, and then get together and are able to, you know, toss ideas around, like have that, you know, once-a-week meeting where they sit around and they go through their docket and figure it out.

Because a lot of these people who are practicing just don't have that, right? They don't have that kind of opportunity. Now, would they be able to cover absolutely everything? No. I think this would make more sense for the kinds of things that are predictable. I mentioned that kind of finite list. By contrast, what I think ALPA would love, if, if this could happen, if, if we could be a part of this, is mainstreaming animal law to the point where it is reflected, there is an animal law specialist at every firm, right?

There's, you know, animal law sections are everywhere across the country, right? It's a thing that people think about. Um, that I think, you know, would really balance out. Like, if you have highly specialized work, like you say, it's not-- you can't learn every single area of law that touches on animal law. Um, you can have people, and theoretically, you could have some value by, you know, kind of combining people who are really specialists on nine areas, right?

I mean, that's probably about the list of your general public demand. But you also need people out there in every area of law who know, and every law firm, where there's somebody who knows, " Hey, an animal issue came up. How do you address it?"

Mariann Sullivan: Like even boutique law firms that are really, really focused on one area and do not have a lot of lawyers, there'll be an animal case. I

Cheryl Leahy: Mm-hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: You don't have to say, "Well, I can't work on animal law because I'm at this, this law firm that focuses specifically on this one statute."

Cheryl Leahy: Right

Mariann Sullivan: virtually any place you are, you can do animal law, as long as you don't have to con- con- think of it as something you're doing full time.

I mean, everybody should listen, sh- everybody who's interested in animal law should be thinking about how they can incorporate it into their practice, even if they're not gonna totally change their practice.

Cheryl Leahy: 100%. So I mean, we talked about the, the process that it would take to do a full-time animal law practice. We talked about the process that it would take to get really specialized in something that, you know, is more sort of groundbreaking or new. But I think the thing that is staring all of us in the face, and that is the easiest entry point and maybe sort of the quietly, you know, biggest, um, opportunity that w- that we can actually achieve is many, many more people start putting, infusing it into their day-to-day law practice, right?

The concept of hybrid kept com- kept coming up as we were doing this practice models work too. So hybrid, the, the most obvious version of that would be some animal cases and some non-animal cases.

Mariann Sullivan: For most people who don't wanna change their whole life.

Cheryl Leahy: And there's no reason not to just start doing that, right? I mean, there's, there's so many opportunities to do it, and really the, the valuable thing is all of these attorneys who are out there practicing has some sort of expertise that can be applied to animals, right?

So if you can find that intersection point, that's the most important, I think, place to get started and even to have a sustainable practice over time, even if that's 20% of your practice area. Um, you know, that, that doesn't mean that there won't be all these other pieces of the, of the field out there, but I think that's the piece that absolutely, you know, has a ton of value to add

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. No, that could be enormous, and a lot of it is just educating people. Like, they don't realize that animal law is not just cruelty law prosecutions. Like,

Cheryl Leahy: Right. Right

Mariann Sullivan: that their antitrust practice actually, they could actually get a big case or something that, uh, or, or their RICO practice, that there are opportunities there, and that they will, they, they could be profitable as well.

I mean, they could start by taking pro bono cases perhaps, like, uh, your friend did, uh, and, and not charging and, and kind of learn the, the ropes about how this relates to animals. And but then there's, there's a whole world out there of legal cases that we, that should be brought.

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, some of it is you can co-counsel, you can build those relationships. I feel like some of it is just sort of the small c conservative culture of law, right? Like, if they don't feel like, if they feel like it's too novel or they, you know, don't have a, a long experienced librarian doing it, they're not sure if it'll work.

But sometimes you just look at what's already been done, right? And you say, "Oh, it has worked." Or you work with somebody who is a little more, has greater risk appetite, and, "Oh, this, this works, now we can use it as a rep- replicable model for, for the future.

Mariann Sullivan: And well, that's kinda where ALPA comes in, isn't it? To

create those connections.

Cheryl Leahy: I wanna be able to, to make the right conversations happen and give them the resources to say, "Oh, this is doable.

This is not that hard to learn." Or if it is that hard to learn, what do I do about it, right? I, you

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah

Cheryl Leahy: certain areas of the law, like Endangered Species Act, I've heard now from multiple people like, please do not let anyone try this for the first time by themselves. Right? So co-counseling is big, and, you know, a lot of people who are out there doing this work very under-resourced in the nonprofit sector is like, we need good co-counsel.

We need good local counsel. Like, that's really hard. You

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Cheryl Leahy: need to have the networks that are deep enough

Mariann Sullivan: are in the country, there might be, uh, there- I mean, certainly endangered species. Like, I mean, no matter where you are, there'll be animal law cases that are

being brought by people from other places that, you know, have a nationwide presence, but they need somebody in your area.

Cheryl Leahy: Well, yeah, and I think, you know, one thing that only recently I became aware of is that another cultural distinction is that animal lawyers are used to just pro hac-ing all over the place and, you know, consulting on things that are not in their state, and that's unusual for your typical practitioner. So those are the kinds of things...

Mariann Sullivan: And can be dangerous

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah. I mean, you need-- I mean, look at like, you know, investigations work back in the day, like in the South. The first time I ever did a North Carolina case, it felt like I w- had to be like vouched for every step of the way. Like, I needed a local attorney to be able to say all the right things and tell them it was okay and th- we-- I was a friend and all that stuff, right?

I mean, there's, there's really important cultural differences, you know.

Mariann Sullivan: I mean, like going into a, a, a courthouse when you don't know anybody, that is, it's not the way to do it. It, it's a very... I mean, no matter where you are, but especially in, you know, small or mid-sized places, the, the atmosphere... No, that's not true. It's, it's true everywhere. It's just very clubby atmosphere, and who you know is as important as what you know. As is so, as my mother used to say, and she was so right

Cheryl Leahy: Well, I think that's the thing, right? We can all be specialists in our own way, and then it's just about finding that right formula. It may not be clear to that typical, you know, attorney. Let's say your, I don't know, your prototypical s- North Carolina attorney may not have any idea what the, what the value of their skills could be for animals, but they may really wanna help animals.

Mariann Sullivan: Absolutely. I mean, having those local connections is, is absolutely crucial. It's very... Th- it, and this is how you create them. This is, this is really... The, the potential is enormous. Don't screw it up, Cheryl.

Cheryl Leahy: I'm gonna try my best, but I definitely invite people to, to come in and, you know, be a part of this, give me their stuff, like that they want to be showcased. Give me their questions and problems and challenges and all sorts of things. So I think

Mariann Sullivan: That is really important when you're starting something because you don't anticipate everything.

Cheryl Leahy: Right. Right. And, and you know, I did not realize certain things would just come up so repeatedly, right? And I mentioned we're, we're kind of in a bubble. I, I, uh, as we were talking before we started recording, I said I just googled around, like what is, what do people think about animal law? Um, and I actually found this really...

' Cause I wanted to just get outside the bubble, like what is the perception of animal law. And I, and I actually did that because I think there are some unspoken or less spoken fears here, right? So not everything that we're talking about here is just smooth sailing, and there's no- nobody has any concerns, right?

It's, I think people are worried about, um, being perceived as unserious,

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah

Cheryl Leahy: That there's a certain amount of status loss that would come from admitting how much you care about the animal issues.

Um, and you know, those are real fears. I think the reality is, like I said, animal, animal protection in general is a weird thing because most people don't realize how much they are aligned with everybody else's values.

They all think that they're the different one, right? Um, but you know, I, I did wanna know, like okay, so what is animal law, the perception of animal law out in the world, and I actually was able to find a Reddit thread. It's from Canada, but it's, I think it applies here, and uh, I wanna read you like a couple of the, of the responses here.

Mariann Sullivan: it's exciting

Cheryl Leahy: Um, super interesting actually. So, uh, the, just the question was just, what is the general perception of animal law? And uh, some of them, "It's a very small field. I'll be surprised if you could find enough work to support a full-time practice in it." Um, "It's not really a practice area. It's something relevant to a number of different areas of law, so I think of it as more of a marketing angle."

Um, "It's very niche work. I don't think anybody views it poorly. It's important law, it's just that there's so little of it that there's no profit incentive for anybody to specialize or for the government to assign resources." Um, this person says, "I took Animals and the Law in law school. Very interesting course, but it was incredibly clear that it was niche, and little to no people actually fully practice in animal law.

That being said, I think it pops up in other areas, and it's, quote, 'illegitimate in the sense that it's, isn't its own practice area, and the term will elicit eye rolls for that reason.'"

Mariann Sullivan: Most of those were, were fairly legitimate. The last one was a little nasty. Um, I, I think it's, it's, I think people think it's very small and, and you're proving that it, that it's really not. I mean, but I think that's a common perception. Uh, and, and I do think it, it's not exactly a practice. I mean, it's somewhere...

It's like children's law. It's not like a... It's a, it's a global focus on, on a certain, uh, kind of e- entity and the, the law relating to that. Like, you can call that a practice area, but I don't think it's what most people think of as a practice area 'cause that, they're focused on a body of law. It's a

Cheryl Leahy: Right

Mariann Sullivan: this narrow area of body of law, and it's not like that.

But, uh, I think that, that those comments are, are, um... They were not nasty. They were just naive about how much work there could be.

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah, I, that's exactly right. I think that the fears about, oh, well, people are gonna think that you're silly or that you're not

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, no,

Cheryl Leahy: serious or... I don't think that's right at all. I think it's a, it's literally a matter of education. It's a matter of showing the work that can be done, of tapping into the traditions, you know, in the law elsewhere, and of just kind of, um, you know, dispelling those real practical, factual myths.

I don't think there is a values misalignment at all.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I, I think there's... I mean, the potential, an enormous amount of potential has already been filled, I think, considering where it was 10, 20 years ago and where

it is now, but the, the additional potential is enormous, and now, now people are gonna be making money. That's even more exciting.

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: Uh, did, so there, was there anything about, oh, upcoming forum.

You said you had an upcoming forum that, that you

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah, so, so as we're building this out, um, so we were wanting to wait until we had five full-blown, um, topics in the resource library before we really shifted to a, a big outreach push. So

Mariann Sullivan: we mention what the other ones are? I'm not sure we did.

Cheryl Leahy: So right now we have estate planning for animals up on there. We have false advertising. We have FOIA and public records that you, that you mentioned, and then we're about to publish the practice models content, and then shortly after that, we'll-- it will be dog bites.

So once we have all five of those up, um, we will shift to much bigger efforts to bring more members in, in- within animal law and sort of outside of it, um, and to do other outreach stuff. And one of those things will be that forum where we really kind of, uh, serve the community, right? I don't know if that's outreach or, like, in-reach.

I don't know. But, uh, it's like that will be a place to showcase your work as well. I mean, we, we already have a, an events calendar, so if you wanted to post something that you have coming up, you know, that's something you can do. A lot of animal law committees will say, "We have these great webinars, but nobody-- we don't know how to get people's attention to them."

Like, put it on the events calendar, right? So it's more of that, and we wanna have conversations going. We wanna have little educational materials that will turn into CLEs, that will turn into eventually in-person things. So we really wanna have people use this and take advantage of it being there. Um, the other thing I'll say, as we do more of that outreach, I invite people now and increasingly in the future to put their names on a potential speakers list.

And I don't necessarily mean just to speak to our own animal law community, but we will do the work to go out into non-animal law legal spaces and say, "We think you should have a speaker that represents the animal angle on this particular topic, and we think it should be this person, this person, this person," right?

So I-- If you wanna be on that list, if you know anybody who should be on that list, just tell me the topics. That way, as we can get out into the world and let people know, "Hey, this area of the bar, you guys should know about this."

Mariann Sullivan: And you know, they'll do it too because they're like, "Oh, that sounds cool." You know,

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah

Mariann Sullivan: that animal law is fun. They don't realize it's c- un- un- unbelievably traumatizing and, and hideous, but

Cheryl Leahy: Right, right

Mariann Sullivan: They think it's cute.

Cheryl Leahy: Right, right. No, thing, the, the facts can be horrifying. Um, but also, I mean, I don't know...

Mariann Sullivan: one of your first practice tips, I'm sorry I interrupted you, but I noticed was like mental, a mental health break.

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah, yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: Take care of yourself. It's so true. But anyway, continue with what you were saying.

what you were saying

Cheryl Leahy: I think it comes down to knowing yourself, right? The kind of stress... So all of this, you know, we talk about cultural differences across different fields of law. One of the ones here is I think you have to have this entrepreneurial mindset, right? I mean, some of the things we've talked about, including this, the Reddit thread, right, is there's this perception that it's like there's no clear path, right?

People say to me, "If I were to do a different area of law, I would know exactly what classes to take, exactly what internships to do, right, exactly what jobs to get, and then it would just sort of go from there." Like, you have to have this more entrepreneurial, like, yes, you can take what's already been done and draw from it, but you really have to know yourself, right?

So for me personally, I'd have a really hard time talking to hundreds of people, you know, across the course of a year and not being able to take on most of their matters. Um, but other people would have a really hard time, you know, watching undercover investigation footage, right? I, I prefer the kind, the stuff that, you know, isn't people crying on the phone.

Like, you know, some people are really good at that, and the people who do that and do it well, you know, they are just so committed to keep going and to, you know, to really do the work and what needs to be done and kind of the, the tenacity that that takes. You know, if, if that's you, yeah, like jump into that.

If that's not you, there are other things you can be doing that are not so frontline

Mariann Sullivan: many different things you can be doing.

Cheryl Leahy: So that, that's hopefully what we're, we're helping people understand in this because we don't want people to say there's no place for me.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. No, I, I totally agree. There is a place for everybody. And, and as I said, the, your, your piece, which people, if they, if they join the, um, the, the program, they, will be available to them, goes into a lot more than we were able to today. One thing I ... Before I, I let you go, what about law students? Not, um, not...

Is there gonna be a place for them?

Cheryl Leahy: We are not right now including law students because we feel like there's a lot of resources for them.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Cheryl Leahy: What tends to happen, I think, is there's a lot of excitement in law school, and then you see a lot of drop-off once people are in their careers. So we're hoping to pick up on that and help people, especially experienced people too

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. you know, maybe there could be some cross-pollination too between

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah, yeah. And oh, there's al-

Mariann Sullivan: Fund chapters and, and, uh, local lawyers and whatever

Cheryl Leahy: Yeah, and I mean, of course the types of speaking events that we'll be doing and all that stuff I'm sure will hopefully include students. Also, always opportunities for students to do, you know, pro bono work for us or, you know, we could do internships, things like that. So that's always an opportunity too, and we've got some excellent students, um, doing some work on this.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, that's great.

Cheryl Leahy: Really creative stuff that, you know, I'm very impressed by. So that's crucial too, so always opportunities there.

Mariann Sullivan: I'm sure that loads of people will be joining and, um, checking things out and learning more than we were able to share today, even though we shared a lot. So, um, thanks so much, Cheryl, for, for being here and telling us about it.

Cheryl Leahy: Thank you, and thank you for joining. I'm really, uh, excited to have you.

Mariann Sullivan: I'm excited. I'm not, I'm not litigating anything though. Just wanna make that clear.

Cheryl Leahy: That's okay. We just, we want your wisdom, so.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, well. All right, for whatever that's worth. All right. Well, that was a very nice way to end. Um, and I hope you're still here. Thank you so much for joining us today, and I think this was, like, a really, a really exciting episode. So, um, remember to subscribe, like, comment on your favorite podcatcher, on YouTube, and catch our next episode of Rising Anxieties. That's on Tuesday, and we'll see you next time.