Greener by Default with Katie Cantrell & Ilana Braverman

[00:00:03] Jamin Singer: Very excited to chat with you. And Katie, I should say to you, welcome back to Our Hen House, because as we were chatting about before, you've certainly been on throughout the years here and there, and for those who missed your interview a couple of years ago, or just want to catch up, let's start with you, Katie.

Can you tell us about the concept behind the Greener by Default program? Like the mission and the thinking behind your approach?

[00:00:28] Katie Cantrell: Sure. So we actually started as a program of the Better Food Foundation. They have an initiative called Default Veg. And so the core concept is really simple. It's basically flipping the norm. So instead of having meat as the default, and people have to specially opt in to plant based options, which usually only Vegetarians and vegans think to do or bother to do, plant based is the default, and people have the choice to opt into meat and dairy.

And so Greener by Default started as a program of the Better Food Foundation to work with corporations and other professional institutions, and we have now spun off into an independent non profit.

[00:01:04] Jamin Singer: Wow. That's amazing. So I'm curious, like, Ilana, your role, and Katie, your role, and how you two work together.

[00:01:11] Katie Cantrell: At Greener by Default, we are both co founders, we started this together, and I am the CEO and Ilana is the COO. So we work really perfectly together. We have very complimentary skill sets.

[00:01:26] Jamin Singer: I have to say, because I would be remiss in not mentioning someone else who is making an appearance right now, I can hear your cat purring, and I'm here for it. So like, who's the cat? Let's get the introductions out of the way. Who's the kitty?

[00:01:40] Katie Cantrell: Her name is Kuba and she joins every one of my calls.

She's a very good coworker.

[00:01:45] Jamin Singer: Fantastic. So where, and where are you both located, by the way?

[00:01:49] Katie Cantrell: I'm in Portland, Oregon.

[00:01:50] Ilana Braverman: And I'm in Chicago, Illinois.

[00:01:52] Jamin Singer: Cool. Amazing. So what are your target areas? Schools? Companies? Like tell me a little bit more about your target areas.

[00:02:01] Ilana Braverman: So we have a couple of different target areas. One is hospitals and healthcare. So after the big win with the New York City Health and Hospital System serving plant based meals by default at all of their 11 public hospitals, which we were able to help them with, we have expanded that area.

So we're working with hospitals all over the country to pilot a similar concept. And then we also work with universities, corporate dining environments, as well as large conferences and events to implement plant based defaults.

[00:02:30] Jamin Singer: That's a lot to cover and so exciting and refreshing and different. We want to catch up on all the progress that has been made in the time since you started, but I particularly want to focus on what's going on in New York City, which has become a poster child for this movement in so many ways. Can you give us an overview of the progress that's been going on in New York City, since clearly if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere.

[00:02:58] Katie Cantrell: Yes, so we started working with New York City. We began with a pilot for patient lunches in their 11 public hospitals with a plant based default. So they have two chef specials every day and those used to be meat based and then for the pilot they made them plant based and then if patients don't want either of the chef specials they have other options to choose from which include meat.

The pilot was extremely successful. About 60 percent of eligible patients were choosing one of those plant based meals. The people who chose them were happy with it. And it was so successful that they decided to permanently implement for lunches and dinners. And now they're working on expanding to breakfast as well.

Now it's just a permanent program across all New York City health and hospitals. And they estimate that it's going to transition about 850, 000 meals a year from meat based to plant based. And they're actually saving about half a million dollars in the process.

[00:03:47] Ilana Braverman: And they've cut their food related carbon emissions by about a third as well.

[00:03:51] Jamin Singer: Wow, that's incredible.

Tell me about the feedback that you're getting from the administrators and the people who you're working with on this.

[00:04:00] Katie Cantrell: It's all been very positive. There was an amazing amount of support at all levels from New York City Health and Hospitals, and they really were so amazing in crafting the program very thoughtfully. So their culinary director came up with recipes that were culturally appropriate. So he really drew from the different demographics of their patient populations and looking at what type of meals would be familiar and comforting to them since that's really what people are looking for when they're in the hospital.

Their head dietician was very supportive. We have a video with one of the CEOs of the hospitals who also really recognized how important this is for the community as a whole in terms of social justice and public health. They did these really wonderful roadshows where they did taste tests for all of the nurses and the food service staff.

And so there was really a very concerted effort to bring everyone in as part of the program and really to get everyone excited about it and understand how beneficial and important it is. And I think largely in part thanks to that, we've really seen only positive feedback. There hasn't been any pushback.

[00:05:04] Jamin Singer: Amazing. I love that. So, something that occurs to a lot of people who learn about this type of initiative, and certainly something I thought of immediately off the bat, particularly for patients whose illnesses are connected to diet, is there any kind of education that accompanies the meals?

[00:05:22] Katie Cantrell: Yeah, so in New York City, they have a really incredible lifestyle medicine program. And so for patients who are hospitalized in acute care, they are getting cards with information about the food and it has recipes so that they can make those meals at home. And as well, they're really pushing for doctors and dieticians and again, everyone on staff to understand food as medicine. And then also for long term care, they have these amazing lifestyle medicine clinics where patients with diabetes and heart disease and these other chronic health problems get more long term engagement and support to make dietary and lifestyle changes as part of their treatment plan.

[00:06:05] Jamin Singer: So I know that it helps to have like a vegan or more or less of a vegan mayor, which New York City does with Eric Adams, but aside from leadership from the top, which there isn't often, sadly, what are the things about a particular city or whatever that makes you think this is a good place to put your efforts?

How are you determining where to focus?

[00:06:29] Katie Cantrell: So we're very opportunistic right now. We're focusing wherever there's interest and buy in. Because we're a small team, so we have a pretty limited staff. And we've really found that our time is best used on the actual implementation. So we don't want to spend a year battling with people who are ideologically opposed to this program when there are places where we can really spend all of our time just making it happen.

And so one of the key steps to that is actually having internal allies. And this is an area where folks listening might be able to help out because we don't get anywhere with cold calling. Institutions of all types are really busy. They have a lot on their plates. And, you know, especially for hospitals coming out of the pandemic, for other types of institutions, there's often been staffing shortages in food service.

So, they're usually not just doing this out of the goodness of their hearts saying, hey, let's add one more thing to our already crowded list. So it really takes someone on the inside to push this and say, you know what, we have all these carbon reduction goals. We have these DEI goals. We say that employee health or patient health is a priority for us.

So this would be an excellent program to really walk the talk and show that we're prioritizing this. And so, especially for hospitals, we've been really fortunate to have a lot of doctors and nurses reach out to us, often who are part of the ACLM or the lifestyle medicine movement, who really believe in food as medicine.

And they've heard about New York City and they say, I really want to bring this to my hospital or to my healthcare organization. So that's usually how it starts. And then they work to set up a meeting with leadership, with decision makers. When we pitch the program, we share our case studies. And then once leadership sees the benefits, often it goes from there and then we can speak with the dining directors and figure out all the logistics to actually make it happen.

[00:08:17] Jamin Singer: So if someone's listening to this and they want to help, I know that we have a fair amount of nurses for, you know, I want to say for some reason, but anecdotally speaking, I think that the nurses that I know who are vegan see a very direct correlation and are just inherently empathic people. So it makes sense to me, but besides people in the medical field who would want to get involved, like what other institutions maybe would a listener be involved with that would make a good entry way for work with you?

[00:08:48] Ilana Braverman: So outside of healthcare, I would say if you work for any company, we could work with your corporate dining hall. If you work at a university or are involved with the university, we can also do a pilot there.

And then if you have the control to organize an event, you can also you know, switch the RSVP. Or change the way that you're serving food even for just one large event, which can really make a big impact.

[00:09:13] Jamin Singer: So if someone contacted you, what would the next steps be? Like, walk me a little through what the pilot program would entail.

[00:09:20] Katie Cantrell: It's different depending on the type of institution. So if we're doing a dining hall pilot, you know, in a hospital or university or a corporation, that's a more in depth process. So it usually involves several rounds of meetings with different stakeholders.

And then we always advocate for piloting these methods. It's usually too big of an ask for them to just blindly commit to it when it is a pretty big change. And so that can be pretty scary. And so we help them test it. And we look at different metrics that are important to them to really show that it works before they commit to doing it permanently.

So we're looking at diner satisfaction. We're looking at carbon reduction. We're looking at cost savings. And so they can test it and say, Hey, we achieved all these great results, people were happy with it, so then they feel safe going forward. So, it's a somewhat lengthy discussion process usually to figure out who all needs to be involved, who are the decision makers who can greenlight the pilot, and then getting the logistics figured out.

It's easier for events, and also for smaller companies that don't have a corporate dining facility, but they do have catered events or meetings, then we have one pagers with different tips. So, for instance, if food is served buffet style, there's certain really easy things that you can do, like making sure plant based food is in the main buffet line.

Oftentimes there will be like a separate buffet just for the vegetarians, which it's funny because there's different strategies if you're tailoring your recommendations to vegetarians and vegans versus if you're tailoring them to omnivores.

And our focus is really on encouraging flexitarianism and making it easier and more appealing for omnivores to choose veg options. And so if you want omnivores to eat the food, it needs to be incorporated into the main line and not be at a separate station or a separate line. So like for buffets, we recommend serving plant based in the main line.

Having the plant based options first, having meat and dairy at the end with smaller serving containers, smaller serving utensils, and those types of nudges just naturally encourage people to fill up their plates with plant based options and the meat and dairy become more of an add on on the side rather than the main focus.

So we have different types of tips like that for different food service environments. And as Ilana mentioned, you know, for events, if people are RSVPing, changing the language on the RSVP form to implement a plant based default is a really easy and effective step that people can take.

[00:11:37] Jamin Singer: Aside from that, what other specific messages play the best when you're doing this kind of a shift?

[00:11:45] Katie Cantrell: Messaging is actually one of the trickier areas. It's a very fine line. We've actually seen a lot of success just doing stealth implementations where you don't really message it at all. A lot of these strategies work based on human psychology and the way that we interact with the food service environment.

And actually, a lot of choice architecture strategies are used by companies to maximize profits. So like, on restaurant menus, one of the things is that people are more likely to choose the first item in a section. And so, most of the time at restaurants, they will make that item the one with the largest profit margin.

They're not telling you that that's why they're listing that one first. And so, we're working to use those same approaches to encourage people to choose the healthier, more sustainable options, and those strategies just kind of work inherently. But if you tell people that you're doing that, then sometimes you get pushback from people who are opposed to plant based for ideological reasons, or they have negative stereotypes about vegan food, or they think that their employer shouldn't be telling them how to eat.

So it gets tricky, but the flip side of it is that, if you do the changes in a stealth way and don't tell people about it, and then they learn about it later, then you risk that they feel manipulated, they feel that there's been a lack of transparency. And so, one of the things that we've been working on is really fine tuning that to figure out how can we message this in a way that makes people feel included and encourages a sense of trust, but doesn't scare them away or feel like, oh my God, now there's suddenly all this vegan food and they're taking my meat away.

[00:13:21] Ilana Braverman: And some specific messages that we would promote if a client wants to go the messaging route are to emphasize the abundance and inclusivity of the meal. So saying, We're providing a wider variety of foods to meet everyone's needs and really emphasizing that this is more inclusive for everybody, for your friends, for your colleagues who you're working with. Or to get down to the specifics of the actual people you're working with.

So you could say x percent of your employees are trying to make this change to eat more plant based foods. And so if you're able to get that level of data, you can also promote the fact and the dynamic norm that this is what everybody around you is trying to do. And that can also help bring people into making those better choices.

[00:14:04] Jamin Singer: So, what about party politics? Is this related to how you're choosing where you're going to focus? Is it mostly a blue state project or are you seeing successes everywhere?

[00:14:16] Katie Cantrell: I would say most of the interest we've had has been from blue states. Again, we're working opportunistically with institutions that have made carbon reduction commitments, usually that's a big motivator for them to work with us, where there are people internally who are allies, who are often themselves vegetarian or vegan, although not always.

Those two things tend to be more likely in blue states, but we are working with some institutions in more conservative parts of blue states or in some red states. And it's really important to us to build up case studies in a wide variety of locations and with different demographics because these strategies do work everywhere.

It can be more challenging in really meat and potatoes types of places, but there are ways that we can make this work anywhere. And so right now, we're focusing our efforts on where it will have the most impact, which is places where it's readily received and we don't have to deal with pushback.

But we are also looking to show that these strategies can be successful anywhere.

[00:15:15] Ilana Braverman: I'll just add to that, something really interesting is with the New York City pilot for hospitals, there are specific recipes that worked really well there. And so we're trying to find out, as we pilot this at different hospitals, are those the same recipes that do well, or do we have to kind of adapt to different patient populations?

And we're finding out that different meals do better in different places. So as we expand the variety of areas that we're able to test this in, we'll be able to give more specific recommendations based on the size of the city, or where in the country different techniques or recipes will work better.

[00:15:47] Jamin Singer: Do you know what recipes are working better in New York City? I'm just curious.

Pizza?! Bagels?!

[00:15:52] Katie Cantrell: I know that sancocho is one of their most popular dishes, and that's one that again the chef crafted. They have a large Puerto Rican population and other Latin American population. And so again, those dishes that are really familiar to patients and comforting.

[00:16:08] Jamin Singer: So Katie, the last time you were here this project was called Default Veg. Why the name change?

[00:16:15] Katie Cantrell: Default Veg is still a program of the Better Food Foundation and I joined to bring Default Veg to corporate audiences and I knew that the existing branding wasn't really a good fit. for a corporate audience. It was more edgy, more towards millennials, Gen Zers, college students.

And so I started by doing some market research and talking with corporate sustainability directors and corporate dining directors to see. Initially, I thought just I would change the colors and the images and things like that. But to a person, every single one of them said that the name Default Veg was too radical sounding.

Just having veg in the name was too scary. I spoke with a former sustainability director for a major tech company, and he said I wouldn't even open an email. That came from Default Veg, and so, I said, okay, clearly we need to change the name. And so, we worked to find a name that was basically as innocuous sounding as possible.

That's very neutral, very non threatening, very kind of greenwashy and corporate, but that works. It sounds reputable, it doesn't sound like some type of radical, activist-y type organization. And we work really hard to brand ourselves as very objective, we're very scientific, we're just helping operationalize these strategies that are rooted in behavioral science.

That's how we settled on Greener by Default.

[00:17:34] Jamin Singer: Well, I like it. It has a ring to it.

Even if it is, like what you said, corporate sounding, I think that's kind of the point. Because you don't want people thinking that there's a bunch of like patchouli smelling hippie vegans behind it, even if it's true. Which I'm not saying because I can't smell you because we're on a video call.

But going back to messaging for a second, Ilana, I have a question for you. You mentioned abundance and all of that. I know that so much of your messaging is health and particularly environmental, are animal rights messages totally ineffective for this type of project?

[00:18:09] Ilana Braverman: I know you asked me, but, Katie, do you want to take that one?

[00:18:13] Katie Cantrell: Sure. I'm not sure that they're totally ineffective, but they are very polarizing, and that does tend to make it seem more political. You asked earlier about triggering the culture wars, and I think certainly animal rights just has this connotation of being very controversial and divisive, and something that even people who love animals or people who are maybe on the more liberal side, they just think like, Oh, this is something that could be really controversial.

I don't want to get involved in that. I don't want to risk my career or my reputation by being seen as pushing a radical agenda. We've had so much success focusing on sustainability and inclusivity and health that we've decided to really just focus on the messages that have the easiest path to success.

Unfortunately, animals aren't part of that, but it does allow us to really have the biggest impact. And so we are saving animals through our work.

[00:19:06] Jamin Singer: Totally. I am all for whatever works, no matter what is motivating the person behind the curtain.

You also promote inclusivity as a reason to adopt this program. In our increasingly multi ethnic world, does this go a long way to allowing food service providers to feed everyone the same thing?

[00:19:28] Ilana Braverman: Yeah, there are a couple of different points there. First, there are many religions that prohibit eating certain animal products or eating certain animal products with others, and so it eliminates that issue. There's also 30 to 50 million Americans that are lactose intolerant, and so if we are not making dairy the default, we're getting rid of that issue.

And then, so many people choose to avoid animal products for a variety of ethical reasons, or have allergies to certain animal products like eggs or shellfish or, as I said, dairy. And so by making the plant based meal the default, especially in catered settings, it just eliminates a lot of issues actually for the food service providers that, you know, everyone can eat this plant based dish and so we don't have to provide all of these extra meals.

In that sense, it definitely helps. When we're looking at an entire dining hall and we're saying, make it predominantly plant based, it's also the fact that most of the diners can now eat all of those meals. Also, though, I want to say, on the other side, that one potential fallback from this is that someone will say, okay, we need to make sure the plant based meal is, you know, vegan and soy free and nut free and gluten free, and then they'll just create this one meal.

And so we also have a separate part of this strategy saying, make the plant based meal the default, make it more inclusive for everybody. However, since you're going to be offering multiple plant based options, make sure that some of them have gluten and some of them have soy and some of them have nuts so that they're really delicious and flavorful and we're not saying that like it should be void of all potential allergens.

[00:21:00] Jamin Singer: Oh my god, I'm so over people equating gluten free with vegan.

[00:21:05] Ilana Braverman: Yeah.

[00:21:05] Jamin Singer: Like, when you go to a new restaurant or something and you ask if the such and such as vegan and they say, Oh no, but it's gluten free! My eyeballs hurt from the amount of times I have rolled them. I digress. Anyway, okay, well that's good to know.

And I know you mentioned before the type of support you provide. So, is the type of support you provide, like help with recipes and suppliers and messaging, is that tailored specifically to the specific place? Or do you have, so to speak, a default setting?

[00:21:36] Ilana Braverman: Yeah, that's a great question. So depending on the client, if they're doing a pilot, we're always going to be there to manage the pilot, get the data, help them with messaging, things like that. And then if they say they'd like help with recipes, we have specific partners that we'll reach out to, like Forward Food, the Humane Society has a wonderful recipe database. Specifically for hospitals, the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine has their Universal Meals Program. And so we can point people in the right direction, or we can help them with working with a culinarian to create recipes.

In terms of suppliers, if someone needs a specific product for what they're trying to serve, we can help them find that. But we've actually found that 9 times out of 10, the places we're working with have all their suppliers set up, they know what type of food they want to be serving, so it's really just about finding the recipe that works for them, and then we can help them from there if there's anything else they need.

[00:22:28] Jamin Singer: That's great. I have a question for you, Katie. So we recently saw a story about a university in the UK that voted to go all vegan in the cafeterias, and then they got a lot of pushback, apparently from people who hadn't bothered to vote.

And the headlines were that they were forcing everyone to go vegan. Does this reinforce the idea that default programs are a better idea?

[00:22:53] Katie Cantrell: I mean, I think there is a little bit more leeway in Europe. They are a little bit farther along in terms of their openness to plant based food, but certainly in the U. S., we see that there is much less pushback when you do a default rather than fully veg. Because people just don't like having choice taken away from them.

They don't like being told what to do. So unfortunately I've worked with a number of different universities and corporations that implemented Meatless Mondays and then had to cancel the program because there was so much pushback. People just don't like having choice taken away. And so that really is the beauty of defaults, that most people are flexitarian.

So they're not going to go out of their way to request a veg option, but when it's delicious, when it's easy, when that's what the people around them are eating, they're happy to choose it. And so defaults encourage those people, but there is, I'd say, maybe about a third of people are the hardcore meat lovers, and they are going to bitterly complain if they don't have their meat, and you know, there is also a very small percentage of people who are... medically can't digest fiber or they're allergic to legumes and nuts and soy.

You know, there are a small percentage of people who, for medical or dietary reasons, can't eat plant based foods. And so defaults truly are the most inclusive for everyone because they meet everyone's needs. And so you don't get that pushback.

[00:24:09] Jamin Singer: I have had this come up in various other scenarios when interviewing people. Like, for example, I remember interviewing, I think, Tabitha Brown about what she was preparing for her family. And it was a situation where at one particular moment in time, she was preparing dinner and she would make all of it vegan.

But it was kind of like, take what you want. There were people in her family, if I'm remembering this correctly, that would have non vegan things that they would prepare on the side, but everyone was kind of eating the same base, or maybe most of the time they were also eating everything the same.

So I'm just curious your thought... Ilana, I see you nodding here. So is this something that has come up for you like on a personal basis or with people you know?

[00:24:54] Ilana Braverman: Yeah, I love that approach. I would say that I don't have that scenario most times in social events. It's mostly the opposite, where the default is mostly animal based meals, and then I bring something separately. But I love that idea of, especially if you're hosting, making everything predominantly plant based, and then if somebody wants to bring something else, that's seen as the addition or the side.

And, I was nodding because that's really how it's working with the conferences that we're working with. You know, it's great that the whole buffet line can be completely vegan, and then if somebody wants to add meat or dairy to their meal, depending on the conference setup, there's a separate station, or they can ask a waiter to bring them a small portion of meat to add to their meal, but just that idea of normalizing that plant based can be the main entree, the main buffet, what everybody can eat, and then if folks want to add something to that, that some people take and others don't, that's exactly what we're trying to promote in terms of a culture shift.

[00:25:53] Jamin Singer: I love that. That's so great. And it's the beginning of a new year at the time we're recording this. So as a non profit, tell me a little bit of what you're able to about your sort of goals for moving forward, whether it's 2024 that we're talking about, or maybe some like pie in the sky dreams that you want for your organization.

[00:26:12] Katie Cantrell: We are really excited. Last year, we transitioned about a million meals from meat based to plant based, and we are looking to more than double that number this year. We're really focused on working with institutions, especially in healthcare. I think that's where we're really going to see very large shifts. Often we'll start with a pilot at a single hospital, but we're working with several different health care organizations that operate 30- 40 different hospitals and long term care facilities. We're also talking with a few more national companies, healthcare companies, insurers, things like that.

We're really trying to make the biggest impact we can as quickly as we can. We know that the situation is very dire, both for animals and for the climate. And we don't have any time to waste. So, we are customizing it as much as necessary, but also trying to scale very quickly.

[00:26:58] Jamin Singer: Very cool. And for those of our listeners who would like to get involved, how can they do so?

[00:27:03] Katie Cantrell: They can visit our website, it's www.greenerbydefault.org, and we have an email sign up there, you can get in touch with us if you are part of a certain institution that you would like to bring this to. Very soon we will also have a materials page available, so, if you work for a company that maybe does catered meetings once a month for 20 people or you're part of a group that hosts events, you probably don't need to work with us intensively, but we will have materials available so that you can just take them and use them. If your event uses an RSVP form, we have the materials you need to make a plant based default for the RSVP. Or if it's buffet style, or plated meals, whatever the food service environment, we'll have different strategies that people can take and run with.

[00:27:48] Ilana Braverman: Also, if you know of any place that is defaulting to plant based meals, please let us know because we'd love to promote the work they're doing. And also, if you take our materials and implement them successfully, we'd love to hear about it.

[00:28:01] Katie Cantrell: If I could add one more thing too, I want to encourage people to think bigger. So something that we see, it's kind of funny, sometimes I'll talk to a vegan who works for a big company and they'll say, Oh, we don't need this. We already have a vegan option. You know, as vegans, we're so excited if we just have something to eat that isn't, like, a hummus wrap that we sometimes don't think that it could be better, but it's a paradigm shift, both for omnivores and for vegans to realize that most foods could be vegan, instead of us just having our one single option, we could have most of the food be plant based, and omnivores can eat and enjoy that food, and so it really is a paradigm shift to realize that we can push for more, and that can be done in a way that's inclusive and isn't going to make people upset.

Sometimes, vegans are hesitant to bring this out, and we actually talk to a lot of people who are kind of almost like closeted at work with their veganism, like they're embarrassed to talk about it, they think it's too radical. So, that's another benefit of the way that we present this is it's very professional.

It's really focused on inclusivity and sustainability. And so hopefully that will be more comfortable for people to introduce without feeling like they're going to be seen as the radical vegan.

[00:29:10] Ilana Braverman: It's the cool thing to do.

[00:29:12] Jamin Singer: Yes it is!

I'm so inspired! I love that this is a way for people to get involved with changing the world for animals because so many people who come to Our Hen House are listening specifically for any tips on what they can do and what they can implement. And the fact that you have this, like, vegan machine behind what you're doing, but you can actually use people's resources, use people's connections, is friggin brilliant. I'm so excited about all of it. I have some personal probing questions for both of you, so I hope you'll stick on for just a moment for our bonus content, but I just want to thank both of you so much for joining us today on Our Hen House and for all that you're doing with Greener by Default.

[00:29:58] Ilana Braverman: Thank you so much for having us.