Defending Animals with Kendra Coulter

[00:00:05] Jasmin Singer: We are so excited to chat with you. There's so much that we want to talk to you about, but to start, can you provide a brief overview of your book, Defending Animals, for those who might not be familiar with it?

[00:00:18] Kendra Coulter: Yes, it's a journey across the landscapes of animal protection. So it's taking people into communities, courtrooms, boardrooms, a broad diversity of spaces where people are at work defending different sorts of animals and using a broad cross section of strategies. So we meet people on the front lines, hear from them directly, meet some memorable animals, of course. And what I hope is that wherever listeners and readers are on their educational and career journeys that they find food for thought, food for action, and ideally hope and inspiration so they too can join this larger movement to defend animals and create a humane future.

[00:00:56] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. And I used to be so much more involved in this, I mean, not personally involved, but aware of what was going on years ago. So it was really great to read the book and kind of catch up with what's going on. I mean, I think one of the questions that always kept reoccurring was who should be responsible for these animals, who should be responsible for enforcing laws, for caring about them? Like, is it government, is it charity?

Can you just tell us some of the challenges that make it so hard to identify what entity, regardless of whether it's public or private, like, who's responsible for all of these animals out there who don't have a home, or who are in a home that they need to be taken out of?

[00:01:32] Kendra Coulter: When it comes to investigations and to suspected illegal cruelty, there is a patchwork and in many ways a patchwork of patchworks. So a broad cross section of different organizations depending on where you are, what kind of animals you're talking about, even things like what day of the week and what time of day it is, it can vary.

There's really a labyrinth that people need to call. There's only one country in the world with a national animal cruelty or animal care hotline, and that's the Netherlands. So in the Netherlands, there's a three digit number you phone and you're reaching the animal care line and they're going to be able to dispatch or answer questions or provide services or deploy professionals or deploy the animal ambulance, which they have in the Netherlands, for what you need.

Over on this side of the ocean and countries like mine, countries like the United States, most every other country in the world, well intentioned citizens who have seen something, suspect, heard something that concerns them, perhaps smelled something, because sometimes the way we identify things like hoarding, or deceased animals are through our noses, they often have to navigate this labyrinth of who to call, and it can be very challenging. But when they are successful and able to get through or are directed to the right person, again, a range of different organizations are going to be responding.

So in some places, it's SPCA, so a Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals or Humane Society. That's common in most of the Commonwealth countries, most parts of Canada, across Australia, New Zealand, across the United Kingdom. It's going to be charity responding, of course, the only kind of crime investigated by charities.

In a few places, and in particular in the United States, you are going to have a public sector or governmental agency responding, but it's really going to vary. So it could be police, most often just a general policing force that may not have had any training about animals, animal welfare, the animal crimes, et cetera, or it could be animal care and control officers.

So, Animal Care and Control Officer is not a synonym for Animal Protection Officer or Animal Cruelty Investigator, but there are some Animal Care and Control Officers who are tasked not only with collecting strays or, you know, dealing with raccoons or those sorts of things, but also with investigating crimes.

So, it's a really complicated terrain. There are pros and cons. That's one of the things I really grapple with, in the book. Should this be a public sector responsibility where governments are responsible and if yes, which government agency or body? Or should it be dedicated animal advocates in nonprofits, even though they often have lower pay?

It's predominantly women. It can be really dangerous. They may be working alone, not have training or sufficient equipment or two way radios. Some of the most fundamentals that they would need for safety. So it's, unfortunately, there's no tidy answer. And I don't think there's a one size fits all model. So instead in the book, I try to invite readers to understand some of these complexities so that they can perhaps shape the best possible policy where they live, depending on their particulars.

[00:04:21] Mariann Sullivan: It just seems like there are areas of this that it's really important for law, real law enforcement to be involved, you know, where there's crimes. And sometimes animal cruelty is associated with other crimes.

There's a lot of danger there. You need real professionals, but caring for the animals seems like something that the police are never going to do that. They're never going to do the right job of getting the animal out of there, maybe doing the necropsy that needs to be done in order to like, there's just, there do seem to be two roles that it's hard to believe is ever going to be covered by one entity. Though I guess if you're in the Netherlands, things are better than they are here.

[00:04:52] Kendra Coulter: Well, and that's why I explore some of the partnerships that have been formed. So in a few places, Edmonton and Calgary, cities in Canada, New York City has a partnership. El Paso has an interesting combination of organizations in Texas. Often that's what groups are doing, is saying, we have our particular areas of strength, and yet, you know, cops are going to be well protected with bulletproof vests if they're walking into a really volatile and dangerous situation, but they don't have pet food banks or litter banks or supplies.

And I introduced what I call the animal harm spectrum. Which is that you can picture the landscape of what investigators are gonna find on the front lines, from really heinous, really violent, alarming crimes, violence against animals, dog fighting, things like that. Abuse against people taking place simultaneously.

Really alarming stuff. On the other side of the animal harm spectrum, you can have people who are not purposefully hurting their animals and, and deliberately wanna provide good care, but may lack resources, may be struggling and need support for themselves. And then in the middle are all these complicated cases. Now, thankfully, those really serious and violent crimes are still in the minority, but when they are found, they absolutely need the attention of professionals for the safety of the people on the front lines doing the work, but also precisely what you say, Mariann, because of what they're finding.

So they are often finding other kinds of crimes, people being abused simultaneously, children, women, older folks, the human animal violence link, right? It's not only that animal abuse is a red flag of future crimes, it's that often when animals are at risk, people are at risk and vice versa.

So we want to be really taking those sorts of cases seriously for the well being of everyone in the family.

[00:06:32] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, it's complicated.

[00:06:33] Jasmin Singer: I was curious when you were talking about the animal control officer earlier. I would love to know a little bit more about the job of an animal control officer.

[00:06:44] Kendra Coulter: Well animal care and control officers are usually municipally funded. Local governments, county, city, sort of small region and originally it was animal control. It was collecting strays. And it's evolved somewhat over time. So folks in, in that industry have made the argument that we need to be doing more.

There needs to be a care dimension of what we're doing. So they may have sheltering facilities. It's a broad cross section and some are enforcing either just a local code. So that could be things like number of animals you could have or certain restrictions of that nature.

It's going to depend a lot on the jurisdiction. Some local governments will have standards of care. So a very, very minimum floor that needs to be met. So they may be able to enforce those sorts of laws, whether they're empowered to enforce regional, you know, state laws or provincial laws really, really varies.

It's more often a different agency that's been empowered to investigate. The legal system is a patchwork. I mean, I did some field work in the Southern United States. I won't say where it is, but it's a city. And there were something like 30 different law enforcement agencies working on different pieces of enforcement in that same region.

So how you coordinate, how you open lines of communication, is immensely challenging. So in some instances, a community's animal services or animal care and control is really sort of a one stop shop. Anything to do with animals, they're who you call and they're going to do their best. In some instances, they may be the wrong person to call and they're going to direct you to a law enforcement agency depending on what they hear.

So I know it's a little bit frustrating to hear because it's like, can't you just tell us what the answer is, Kendra? And the answer is no, because it really is. It's a tapestry. It's a patchwork that varies a lot, but there were some patterns across the different organizations.

Most folks are in this work because they care about animals. They don't see it necessarily as a stepping stone onto some other kind of law enforcement. If people are on the front lines of animal protection, they are very constrained and limited in terms of what they can do, when they can access properties, when they can seize animals.

There are a lot of restrictions on them, and that can be frustrating, especially for animal advocates who are watching and thinking, how can this be possible? How come they're not doing anything? They probably aren't legally able to. Most of them are very well intentioned. Some of it's very difficult.

They're seeing the worst in our society, both, you know, violence against animals, neglect, people in crisis for various sorts of reasons, and they're doing their best, often with very limited resources. Animal protection, wherever it operates, is obviously systematically understaffed and under resourced.

[00:09:10] Mariann Sullivan: What kind of a personality does it take? I mean, it's such unbelievably hard work, and it must be so frustrating because as you say, a lot of times people are maybe not justifiably, but understandably angry about how little they can accomplish, and they probably feel the same way. I mean, and here they are, living kind of horrible lives. Do they spend most of their time out on the field dealing with these very troubling situations and what kind of a person does it take to do this?

[00:09:34] Kendra Coulter: A dedicated person, an immense amount of resilience. You know, I've seen a fraction of what the frontline officers have seen. They've been very generous bringing me along with them to job shadow, interviewing focus groups. I got a lot of their voices and I've seen, you know, as I say, a fraction of what they've seen.

And I still protect, you know, my loved ones from what I'm learning because it's so disturbing and so devastating. They are seeing the worst in our society and have to build coping mechanisms. Most of them focus on the animals and what they can do. That's a really common coping strategy. You know, they reflect the diversity of society, in many ways. There's disproportionately women involved in this kind of work, especially when it's nonprofits and charities, which- lower paid, fewer protections, fewer benefits in comparison to say a male dominated policing service, for example. Some of them are doing this work with donated vehicles, you know, they've got the Kia dealership on the side of their car and they're driving up to investigate suspected animal cruelty.

They may or may not even have two way radios. It really depends on where they're located, but the nonprofits are doing their best, but that's where you see even more difficult work. They're often going in cold. They don't have access to law enforcement databases, so they don't know someone's wanted for murder at this property that I'm driving up to by myself with my can of mace, and that's all I have as my personal protection equipment.

So, I share a lot of their stories and their voices, which I hope will speak to readers about the challenges they feel. They often skip vacation because they're like, I'm the only one. If I'm not here, no one's doing it.

Or they take a weekend and they're stressed the entire time, wondering about the cases that are piling up and the animals who might need help. So they're carrying a really significant burden. And what I think is really crucial in this space of investigating illegal cruelty is for animal advocates to recognize that frontline workers and their well being is directly connected to animals' well being.

So if we have more frontline investigators who are properly resourced, properly supported, getting the mental health supports they need because of the work that they're doing, that will help animals. They'll be more efficiently able to get where they're going, they'll have more reasonable caseloads, they'll be able to be more thorough, and initial investigations are crucial for that preliminary evidence gathering that's so important in serious cases that might end up in the criminal justice system.

So, we can become frustrated. And of course, like every workforce, there's a diversity of folks with different areas of strength and commitment, but by and large, they are doing their best.

[00:12:00] Jasmin Singer: Speaking of doing their best, can you tell us a little bit more about how you deal with the deeply painful stuff that you write about in a way that you feel is doing your best to manage it because I honestly can't imagine that. And relatedly, I'd love to know a little bit more about the research process that you undertook while writing this book.

[00:12:22] Mariann Sullivan: I'm just going to add, Kendra, it was tough to read this book. I don't know what it would have been like to write it. There's a lot of stuff in there that's tough.

[00:12:29] Kendra Coulter: There is. Yeah. I tried to maintain immense amount of hope and possibility. I left out a lot of the graphic because I know it's difficult and I want people to be invited and I want people to learn and read. So, you know, we start with companion animals before moving into some of the more complicated and controversial animal issues.

But at the same time, I know we all really care about the animals and so it's difficult. I've been studying animal protection work since 2015. And so the research process is multifaceted. It includes job shadowing with people. I really like, when I can, being in the field with them to see what's going on in real time. Interviews, focus groups, COVID put a little dent on so many things in life, including the research plan.

So, you know, some of these people, we were having phone calls or follow up interviews over zoom and those sorts of things that was really key to bring the voices from the front line to a larger audience. So my voice is there, but I also want to amplify other people's voices, including debates and different perspectives.

So that's combined with financial analysis, policy analysis, legal analysis to round out the picture so that it's more of a portrait of what's going on. And it was a true honor and privilege to write the book. Uh, it, I submitted it actually on International Women's Day, 2022, and I thought that was very important.

And of course, we're in Black History Month, and so I want to recognize that and the many Black folks on the front lines of animal protection and the incredible work they have always done and are still doing. But in terms of being a writer, it's a great joy, other than being with happy animals, writing is the greatest joy of my life.

So even with the difficult material, I focused on what difference can this make? If this is reaching a broader audience, if this is reaching people across different age groups and demographics and different communities, and it's going to give them some ideas for a possibility and inspiration for what they could be doing in their communities, that's going to make the difference.

So the chapter about prosecutions and investigations, we talk about the Puppy Doe case from a few years ago in Massachusetts. It's very difficult, and that was the hardest chapter to write overall, and, you know, we have many rescued dogs in my families, and one of them is named Sunny, she's the first photo that readers see inside the book.

She was taken from a very abusive, volatile home. She was starved and beaten and deprived of water for the first years of her life, and she really inspired me in her story. In many ways, her body healed more quickly than her spirit and her mind. So she trusted us, an immense amount of trust.

I think anyone who's been around abused animals understands that they are physically and very psychologically damaged, but they also have this extraordinary ability to trust and forgive, especially those of us who earn it. So Sunny was wrapped around my feet as I wrote that chapter and in many ways she would look at me in living proof of the compassion and solidarity that are at the heart of animal protection.

It's a bit touching to talk about her. She actually died the week the book came out.

I had come home from the last book launch, and within hours she was gone and, and in a way it was as though the deeper purpose of her life had been reached. You know, she had known love and joy, but she had also inspired me to do this deep dive into animal protection work, and so, you know, she will always be the soul of Defending Animals. And she lives in it, and she lives in all of us, who are working for a more humane world.

[00:15:43] Mariann Sullivan: I'm so sorry. That's a really painful story. I'm opening up my book so I can, oh yeah, she's a beautiful, beautiful girl. One of the things I was opening up the book for, I mean, I wanted to see her, but I was curious too, whether she was a pit bull, which she isn't, she's like a shepherd mix I guess, or a shepherd.

I didn't remember from the book and I just, you know, I, I feel like there's a lot to be said for the idea that, sticking with the subject of dogs, and I know the book covers far more than dogs, but for the moment, a lot of people, including me, I mean, it just seems looking at the dog situation it's very, very substantially a pit bull situation.

Having seen it, and certainly not that everybody's a pit bull, but that, you know, you go onto any shelter website these days and there are all these beautiful, beautiful dogs up for adoption and 90 percent of them, you know, probably aren't going to get looked at by a lot of people because they're pit bulls.

Is the pit bull issue a really big part of the dog issue?

[00:16:38] Kendra Coulter: It is, and it is in particular in certain regions. The problem you've identified is pervasive, Mariann, absolutely. That they are disproportionately in shelters and face so much stigma.

With those adorable seal faces!

[00:16:51] Mariann Sullivan: I just fall for every single one of them.

[00:16:53] Kendra Coulter: Yes, absolutely. But they're more likely to be legally banned and to carry around this baggage that has nothing to do with who they are as individuals. So, you know, work that groups are doing to champion the bully breeds and recognize that they, unto themselves, are not a problem or are any more dangerous.

I mean, you look at things like bite statistics and they're not at the top. Breeds that people wouldn't suspect are, instead, but they are the ones who are most often used in animal fighting. There's some discussion of animal fighting and the immense challenge that it is, because it's this immense exploitation of dogs' love and so infused with toxic masculinity and crimes taking place simultaneously.

I mean, the undercover investigators that I've spoken with and the other policing agencies that have done this kind of work say you never find a dog fight without other kinds of crimes going on. So you've got firearms trafficking, you've got human trafficking, you've got drugs.

It's extremely dangerous. It's extremely secretive, fights can change location seven times and only the people who are going will know about it. And the ring gets erected, the dogs fight, and the ring gets taken down and disappears. So it's extremely challenging.

It's increasingly on the radars of law enforcement and in this instance, I think it's pretty clear that we need the most well protected, well trained law enforcement professionals to be grappling with the challenges of animal fighting because of what's going on simultaneously, and the dangers. I mean, there's some pretty horrific stories about nonprofits that have tried to investigate suspected animal cruelty in their areas and what's happened to the people themselves.

It is a very disturbing terrain, but I think what's crucial is that we just all continue to challenge the stereotypes about pit bulls. And the people who can and who find the right match and have the time and opportunity in their life open their hearts and their homes to those dogs who deserve so much better.

[00:18:39] Jasmin Singer: It is really hard to reach audiences. I mean, I think we know that doing Our Hen House, I know that as like a writer and a media person. Who is the audience for this book and, what impact do you hope to have by sharing it with them?

[00:18:58] Kendra Coulter: No restrictions on the audience. In fact, I think it's open to people of all political persuasions, all different backgrounds. It was written as a powerful demonstration of solidarity with animals, but also in solidarity with people on the front lines who are doing the difficult work.

And, I mean, truthfully, it was written because a literary agent contacted me and said, do you want to bring animal issues to a larger audience? And I said, Hell yes! Of course I do, because that's how we make a difference is the more people learn and care, the more change happens. So it's intended to be inclusive, open, inviting, and accessible in its style. It relies on heavy research, and there are some debates, and legal theory, and some of those big jargon words in it, but they're always explained in a way that is accessible to people, so that you can give this as a Christmas gift, you can give this as a birthday gift, you can pick this up and give this to your niece or nephew or your neighbor or whoever. It's intended to really reach a broad audience, and that people will find something in it that speaks to them, if not all animals. That they'll be able to see, looking across the animal protection landscape, at that diversity of work that's being done, some things will resonate with them, whether they're interested in their wild animal neighbors or endangered species, farmed animals, companion animals, horses. I really was encouraged by the MIT Press, and by the fact that all animals need protection to cover that breadth.

So, readers are going to move across the landscape, and hopefully be moved by some, a lot, or maybe even all of what they read.

[00:20:32] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I noticed the structure of the book, which I thought made a lot of sense myself that as you mentioned, you start off with companion animals, a lot of dog stories, and you move on to wild animals and you kind of save farmed animals until the end, which is kind of like the trajectory of every animal rights activist. Like of the route at which one starts to care. Was that a strategy of hoping to bring in some people who had sort of a more general interest, who care about their dog, and care about some of the political issues there? I don't mean to act like you were just trying to fool them into getting to the farm animal chapters, but kind of introduce them to the issues and then hold the more difficult issues to the end.

Is that how you thought of doing it? Or did you express it better than I did?

[00:21:16] Kendra Coulter: No, absolutely. I think that's precisely that. Most people access love for animals through an animal they meet who's in their family. Let's explore that. And those animals need better protection as well. There's lots of work and they raise big questions about the role of the public sector and the role of nonprofits, bigger questions about the legal system.

I talk a lot about working downstream, or upstream. So downstream after harm has already taken place. We're getting better at treating victims with care and dignity. But can we also increasingly work upstream to try to stop victims from being pushed into the water in the 1st place? And that looks different depending on the kind of animal, the community, but there is work being done, whether it is companion animals or farmed animals.

So I wanted to grapple in a thoughtful way with companion animal and then what I repeatedly call illegal cruelty, the examples of animal cruelty that socially have been defined as illegal, and keep those victims front of mind. I mean, every animal matters.

So, of course we care about the massive numbers, but we care about those massive numbers because they're all individuals. And they all think and feel and care and want to give and receive love. So, it invites readers to look more deeply, even at companion animal enforcement. I think a lot of people are like, I want something done.

And it's like, okay, what are we going to do? Who's going to do it? How are we going to pay them? How's it actually going to happen? And so it paints a better picture in that respect. But then moving on to say, you know, Animals is in fact a large group with all sorts of individuals and species, all of whom want to live.

All of whom want to feel joy and freedom from fear. And so we can move across the different landscapes exploring animals in our neighborhoods. People often feel very strongly if they see injured baby birds, for example. What to do about that, who's gonna help. People feel really passionately about the extraordinary and most beautiful animals on the planet, right? The elephants and, you know, the mountain gorillas and the giraffes, these extraordinary species, sometimes down to a few hundred, or in the case of rhinos, sometimes down to a handful of them.

So they warrant our attention too. And I explore some of the questions around conservation, especially for folks who are not in the global South. Which is how do we act in solidarity with the people on the front lines and the organizations doing that work in ways that are thoughtful and respectful of the people who live around those animals, often in great poverty.

So another example of human and animal well being being directly connected. And then, of course, when you grapple with things like captive animals, horses are very complicated. Horses are ostensibly a loved species, but their lives are much more complicated in practice. And then, of course. The chapter is called The Elephant in the Room is a Chicken and here we are on Our Hen House. And it's a really wonderful chapter talking about farmed animals, and with sanctuaries talking about economic strategies.

When we move into the realm of farmed animals, that's really where developments in the business world and what I call the business of animal protection are really most salient. How are we creating, never mind reforms, but replacements for violence against animals in the economy?

Women, Black folks, all kinds of people creating these businesses that are fundamentally changing the world. At this moment, writing this book and being able to talk about alternative proteins, lab grown meat and dairy. I mean, the potential that this technology has to fundamentally save the world from climate catastrophe and change it for animals is what keeps me hopeful, is what drives me every single day. I mean, it's an extraordinary moment where terror coexists alongside possibility, but in spaces like that, we can find a significant amount of hope.

[00:24:55] Jasmin Singer: Your work definitely touches on a lot of despair, but I like the fact that you're pivoting it to talk about hope. And speaking of that kind of dichotomy between despair and hope, your work often explores the intersectionality of various different social justice issues. So how does this concept play a role in Defending Animals?

And do you see the interconnectedness of various forms of oppression playing out in the way that you have put this book together? Tell me more about that.

[00:25:29] Kendra Coulter: Yes, absolutely. Crucial dimension, Jasmin. And, you know, you are an expert of this who's written wonderful things, which I hope everyone is reading and has read.

[00:25:37] Jasmin Singer: Thank you. That's very kind.

[00:25:38] Kendra Coulter: Human and animal well being is connected and that's a central theme of the book, that often to support and uplift animals, yes, they require our attention and our care, but sometimes it's actually about uplifting people, supporting people.

So I'm gonna open the book by saying people are the problems and the solutions. So we can see the species difference, which is that, yes, this is about our species. But then let's talk in a thoughtful way about, which members of our species? Which organizations and economic interests in our species? Who has a choice about where they work and doesn't have a choice about where they work.

Virtually every animal issue is fundamentally connected to a human social justice issue. So whether it's questions about racial justice in the criminal justice system, or whether it's looking in the African continent at largely Black folks who are literally putting their lives on the line, and many of whom are dying to protect some of the world's most endangered species, supporting them, equipping them with safety protections. Creating good, what I call good, humane jobs for people, working class people, poor people, people of all sorts of diverse backgrounds, protecting animals, defending animals.

That is central. That is absolutely central to the animal protection landscape and to creating a new future. So, I don't think the book is about despair. I do think it grapples with some difficult material, but I think it's ultimately about possibility. I practice what I call a stubborn commitment to hope. And that is what keeps me going.

[00:27:04] Jasmin Singer: I love that so much. Thank you.

[00:27:06] Kendra Coulter: There is no option for those of us who care about animals to quit. And, you know, Amanda Arrington from Humane Society of the United States has a beautiful quote in the book about this where she's like, it's not an option. I will have days where I take a break, where I pause, where I look after myself, but quitting is not an option. If we foreground the animals, we have to keep working. So there is a beautiful quote on the front of the book from the person who's done more for animals than anybody else on the planet, Dr. Jane Goodall. She sent that from Amazon. So I mean the rainforest, Amazon, not the Amazon warehouse, although you can order your book from Amazon if you would like.

It's available wherever books are sold. She's 89 years old and she's in the Amazon rainforest. And she profoundly is committed to the stubbornness of hope. Her story is extraordinary, but there are so many other animal defenders who are featured in this book who illustrate the possibilities, the hope, the real potential that everyone looking back has seen major changes.

And of course, there are many problems, certainly some setbacks, that we're grappling with. But it is a stubborn commitment to hope that is what will create a more just, humane, and sustainable future

[00:28:16] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I think that Jasmin and I have always said that hope is a strategy and people sometimes take that wrong as if all you have to do is hope and, you know, you don't have to actually do things. Of course, that's not what we mean. But sometimes people think of hope as like an emotion, which I guess it is, but sometimes you don't feel that emotion. Sometimes it's just gone, but you still keep going. You still kind of just pretend you have hope, or you know you act as if you have hope even during those dark times and you keep doing stuff.

And in that way, I think of it as a strategic effort.

[00:28:47] Kendra Coulter: Well, I want to tell you about something that I did when I was an undergraduate student. I created a hope file, a literal file, into which I would put hopeful stories. I'd click them or I'd print them or whatever so I had this collection of things that I could look at when I needed to and I think that kind of strategy is absolutely crucial.

Hope needs a plan. Hope needs multiple plans In fact, but it is the engine. It is the fertilizer for our soil in so many ways. And, you know, I often espouse solidarity along with hope. So to me, the reason that solidarity as a concept is so powerful and mobilizing is because it's rooted in empathy.

Justifying, recognizing, legitimizing the experiences of others, and solidarity is support despite differences. So animals don't need to be like us or us like them. I mean, yes, they are in lots of ways, but that's not necessary. Similarly, other people don't need to be like me for me to empathize and understand that they and their lives matter.

So, our struggles are different, but I support you in yours. So that's why I find the concept of solidarity so, impactful and mobilizing in an animal space. You know, it's a feeling, but it's also a thought and it's a decidedly political commitment. It's something we feel, but it can't remain internalized.

It requires us to act.

[00:30:01] Mariann Sullivan: You know, you mentioned your hope file and I love that idea. Can you share a couple of stories? I mean, we've been talking about the book and the theories and the ideas, but can you just tell us a few more stories? They don't have to be hopeful, but I wouldn't mind it if they were.

[00:30:16] Kendra Coulter: Stories from the front lines? Things that are particularly noteworthy?

[00:30:20] Mariann Sullivan: Stories about an animal. You went out on those calls, you saw what was going on. And there's a lot of stories in the book, which I think makes it very powerful. Can you just share one or two of them?

[00:30:30] Kendra Coulter: Yeah, I think some of the stories coming out of Unbridled Thoroughbred Foundation, the Unbridled Horse Sanctuary in the state of New York, are absolutely remarkable. These are horses who are being rescued from the slaughter pipeline. Susan Kayne is doing absolutely remarkable work with these individuals and there's one with a female horse, a mare who was rescued from a like a feedlot in Texas, bound for a slaughter plant in Mexico, most likely.

And she had a, I think, a one week old foal with her, a one week old baby. And horses can of course live comfortably together in groups and form herds and be social and empathetic creatures, but in those feedlots where they're overcrowded and deprived of food, it's obviously a very unpleasant and dire circumstance. But this mare who was, I think, you know, 7201, the tag on her said, plastic tag. You know, an individual reduced to a tag. She managed to survive along with this baby, and Susan Kayne managed to gather enough funds from animal supporters, horse lovers, who want to not just love the horses in their own lives, but love horses. Period. And understand that all horses deserve good lives.

Manage raise enough money, first to outbid meat buyers, who my understanding is sometimes at those auctions will artificially increase the price when they know they're bidding against a non profit that's motivated. So there's that, but she managed to outbid, and bring this little mare and foal to her sanctuary in New York, and they named the mare Ginger.

And so for anyone who's read Black Beauty, you might have images of Black's friend Ginger, who suffered a very difficult fate at the hands of cruel humans. And I think Black Beauty really reveals that powerful and timeless lesson, which is that animals are so, simply it's, it's luck good or bad where they end up and who they end up with.

And it shouldn't be up to luck. Luck is not enough. Animals deserve more. So this Ginger and her little baby, who they named Sweet Pea, came off the trailer into their new home. Ginger continued to be extremely suspicious of people. Understandably, understandably, given how our species had treated her, the baby knew less fear.

And I, you know, I think babies of all species are just, they err towards trust or curiosity and joy. You know, that innocence that they have. And over the first month, Ginger couldn't even nurse because she was so deprived of food and her body stopped producing milk for her baby. So they kept the baby alive with formula, but over a month or two, Ginger's body recovered and she slowly started to trust.

So people would just sit with her, they would bring her food, they would watch. Sweet Pea was very interested in people and learned to trust quite quickly, but Ginger took a little while. So it was a couple of months before that little plastic tag, that 7201, was able to be removed from her because she didn't want people to touch her and they respected that.

I think those tags mean so much, whether they've come from cow's ears or pig's ears or horses. What they have in common is that that individual, their whole being, all, everything that they wanted to be, all of their relationships, their own personality, their own opinions and preferences, because we know animals have a lot to say, and a lot of views on things, reduced to that.

But then people on the front lines get rid of those tags, and they bring back the individual, and they allow that individual to become whoever he or she is intended or wants to be.

[00:33:51] Mariann Sullivan: No, it's beautifully said.

[00:33:52] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, thank you so much for that. We're always interested in like what makes people tick, and like where they find their hope. I'm also interested in your personal experiences or maybe connections that motivated you to delve into this subject of animal rights and defense. Can you tell us more about that?

[00:34:16] Kendra Coulter: I think like a lot of kids, I had the initial love for animals, so I became a vegetarian at age three when, at my daycare, they brought out a chicken carcass, and my little brain realized that chicken is chickens. And I guess I came home and I was inconsolable. And that happened again when they brought out fish because I'm seeing the individual.

And so I was able to, you know, sustain that and expand my dietary commitments to animals. The more I learned about dairy and eggs and these sorts of industries as I aged. And I think that love was always there. And I think that, you know, I was reading Koko's Kitten about Koko, the gorilla at the Gorilla Foundation in California, who used sign language.

And at university, I wanted to study animals, but at that time you could do that for the sciences and only the sciences. And I think there's a place for science, but that's not how I view the world. I was more of a social scientist and more of an art scholar and I was too early, a little too early.

But since then, you know, over the last 20 years, there have been all these extraordinary advances in universities, where you can now study animals through history through sociology through criminology. Read animal biographies, and it's such an honor to be here now and able to contribute to this world and to be part of this.

And along those lines, if I may share some extraordinary news from my own university, Huron University College at Western University in London, Ontario, Canada. So just in southern Ontario, two hours from Toronto for folks who are familiar with Ontario, not too far from Buffalo or Detroit. About two hours from both of those as well.

So, London, Ontario Huron University College. We are now home to the world's first major in animal ethics and sustainability leadership. So for the first time in history, students can do an entire degree focused on animal and environmental issues, along with the management and organizational skills that will open doors to all sorts of careers, whether they want to go into the business world or become entrepreneurs, whether they want to go into the public sector and become research analysts or policy makers, whether they want to be in nonprofit, creating their own organizations. I have a number of students who want to form animal sanctuaries.

And of course, that absolutely warms my heart, in terms of some of the downstream work that we're doing to protect farmed animals from short, intense lives of misery and premature deaths. Or whether they want to work upstream again, in that business world, in the political world, in the legal world, where we're, for the first time, able to offer this extraordinary opportunity. I cannot wait to welcome more students to our program.

It's at Huron West @Western.C/AESL. AESL, we're calling it for short, Animal Ethics and Sustainability Leadership. To me, I see these as complimentary projects. The work that I do in writing books, in writing media articles, in the classroom, this is all fundamentally about the animals and how we improve and save their lives.

That is what I believe is the purpose of my life, is to improve and save animals' lives.

[00:37:17] Mariann Sullivan: You know, I read a little bit about this program and it sounds amazing and I mean, it shouldn't be so amazing, but it is because I'm not sure what other programs that are sort of similar to this exist. But the thing that seems amazing about this one is that it links animal ethics and sustainability, which, as we all know, for some reason, there has just been so much hostility among the environment... not, you know, it's started to ease in the past 5, 10 years, but, so much hostility among the environmental movement to facing up to the issues. A, of what animal agriculture and some other things are doing to the environment, but B, that the animals matter in some fundamental way.

Did you get pushback regarding this concept? Is there more enthusiasm for, I don't even want to say linking these two topics because it's more that you are acknowledging the link that obviously exists between these two topics. I mean, of course they're linked. They're almost the same thing. So what was the attitude of the university?

[00:38:16] Kendra Coulter: Incredible support. When I first spoke to the president about this, he, within minutes, was like, Yes, I want to to know in 20 years that we were at the forefront of this. Now one of his daughters is a vegan. So that certainly helps.

[00:38:28] Mariann Sullivan: I know. It always helps, doesn't it? That happens so often.

[00:38:32] Kendra Coulter: It's been remarkable talking to my colleagues. It's a really multidisciplinary program. So there's some courses on animals and nature and literature. There's philosophy of animal ethics. I teach an animals in law and policy course, I teach a business course called Animal Welfare and Sustainability Leadership, and then there's all of these other courses that students can interweave the degree path that works best for them in terms of their career goals.

Because it's not only about animal ethics and sustainability, which we very much see as connected, it's also about that leadership piece.

And that we want students to be able to hit the ground running, to be creating, to be innovating, to be building, to be building those bridges. And that's a central theme of the book, too, right?

There's this need for connections, building bridges. People may not always agree. There's a little bit of debate and difference within the animal world. Did you know that?

Uh, you know, the immense amounts of disagreement, and it's, you know, not painting any movement or the animal protection landscape with any one brush, but rather looking at some of those differences and then trying to transcend them and trying to find the best possible paths forward for the animals.

So it's an absolutely extraordinary time. I'm overjoyed about this program. I can't wait to welcome students from around the world. You know, we have a deliberately small university, purposely small classes. It's a community of care. It's an extraordinary place to work. And now the impact and experience is just going to be augmented that much more.

And I got a little emotional thinking about the impact that these graduates are going to have. It makes me feel, you know, deep hope for the future.

[00:40:02] Mariann Sullivan: Oh, it sounds like the subject area of the courses can come from any area. It's a very wide variety, but you've mentioned a couple of times is your major focus here going to be not a business major, but a management kind of, like, is that one of the major focuses? Like training people to actually do stuff in the real world?

[00:40:20] Kendra Coulter: Yes, we're going to delve into the theory, the debates, the conceptual realm. That's crucial. I mean, that's what the university is for. You've got this time where you can really get into some of the big questions. You can really drill down and explore. But then we do want people to be able to hit the ground running and go out and find careers, create careers.

So, there's a mandatory electives list. Students have a lot of choice, but you do have to take some courses in management and leadership so that we can really build those skills and be career ready. That's absolutely crucial.

[00:40:53] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, no, that seems unbelievably crucial, you know, not to get into the whole question of academia these days, but sometimes it's not that practical, just saying, and a lot needs to be done here.

We talked before about the audience for your book, but I just think you've kind of written one of the fundamental texts for this.

It all seems to be coming together.

[00:41:15] Kendra Coulter: Thank you. I appreciate that. There's one other animal book related piece of news if I might share.

[00:41:20] Jasmin Singer: Yes, please.

[00:41:22] Kendra Coulter: So my first novel is being published by Simon and Schuster.

[00:41:28] Jasmin Singer: Ooh, congratulations!

[00:41:30] Kendra Coulter: Thank you so much, Jasmin, it is called The Tortoise's Tale. It is the autobiographical memoir of a giant tortoise. And her extraordinary and expansive life, and it will be out next year with Simon and Schuster. And I see it as another complementary piece of this, which is how can we write? How can we speak? How can we share ideas? How can we think? How can we feel in ways that cultivate solidarity and compassion. I'm absolutely elated to now be a novelist, and to grapple with the realm of how we tell stories.

And I spoke earlier about Black Beauty, and the power of inviting readers into animals' worlds. So the tortoise is hilarious, incisive, poignant, her story is absolutely marvelous, and I hope that your readers will all watch for it in the fall of next year.

[00:42:22] Jasmin Singer: Well, you have to come back when it's out cause that's like my favorite thing in the world is just like using the creative arts in any way to advocate for animals. And I actually wrote my first fiction book that my agent is submitting next week. And I've been, it's been in the works for two years.

[00:42:42] Mariann Sullivan: Unfortunately, it's not about a tortoise.

[00:42:44] Jasmin Singer: It's not about a tortoise, but that's good.

That would be so weird. What if I was like, it's about a tortoise... but it's YA. So it's about a teenage tortoise. No, I'm kidding. It's not, but in any case, I am so excited for you.

[00:42:57] Kendra Coulter: I'm excited for you!

[00:42:59] Jasmin Singer: Thank you. I have, well, fingers crossed, you know, it's a long process. But I definitely want you to come back when that's out and I cannot wait.

Is there an audio book in the works for it?

[00:43:10] Kendra Coulter: I hope so.

Then the question, you know when you're kind of fantasizing, and you're like, Which famous vegan woman do I want to narrate? Do I want Alicia Silverstone? Do I want Emily Deschanel? Do I want Jessica Chastain? It's hilarious.

The folks at Simon & Schuster have been incredible. My editor, her compassion reaches around the world.

She's so moved by the story and I'm in such great hands and I'm just absolutely loving this journey into the fiction realm and hoping for the absolute best for you, Jasmin, because you're a wonderful writer. The realm of YA is incredible. It's tough being a kid at the best of times and it's certainly tough being a kid now.

So I know that your book, hopefully someone will be smart enough to buy it.

[00:43:52] Jasmin Singer: That's so sweet. I hope they listen to this all of them.

Oh, gosh, Mariann, we have so many questions. I'm not asking this 1 because I know you want to ask it because it's your favorite question to ask people. So why don't you ask that question?

[00:44:05] Mariann Sullivan: Well, I mean, you've sort of covered this, but I guess I wouldn't mind hearing, because I, I do always like to hear about people's theory of change. What is the nugget of what it is that you think needs to be done in order to get us from here to where we need to go?

[00:44:20] Kendra Coulter: This is a tough question. In some ways there are so many answers.

[00:44:24] Mariann Sullivan: Well, there's so many problems and maybe they all have disparate solutions, but I really do like to try to come up with the one, because it's so hard. It, it really is so hard. We're dealing with so many obstacles,

[00:44:36] Kendra Coulter: Yeah, and I think that's where a stubborn commitment to hope is crucial. I think that's where principles of solidarity are essential. I'm hesitant to narrow because I do fundamentally believe that we're each positioned differently in our own contexts and able to exercise our agency and make the change that makes the most sense for us.

So I'm often saying to students that, you know, there are going to be opportunities, you take them, but sometimes there are no opportunities and you have to make them. So I think that we're in a time very much of innovation where, whether people are inclined towards legal advocacy, whether they're rescuing individual animals, driving turtles or pit bulls or other animals across to safety, whether they are entrepreneurially inclined and can come up with some, some new business that's going to replace some harmful product, all of those pieces to me contribute.

And so rather than narrowing, I expand and instead simply encourage and invite people to self reflexively engage in the work that makes the most sense for them, but also to recognize that that work can change over time. That what works best for you at 25 might be very different when you're 40, when your life circumstances change or in a different community or all those sorts of things while, you know, being humble, but at the same time, and this is really crucial for women and, you know, non binary folks who are listening is to be confident.

Use your voice to speak up to take the microphone, and to try to find those opportunities for possibility, but not get pushed over and not get pushed around because the hate is real. There's a lot of toxicity, it's alarming a lot of the things that we're seeing that people are doing to other people, never mind animals and the planet.

So we need to be supporting each other, in all ways that are possible and you know, maintaining that commitment to solidarity and collaboration.

[00:46:24] Jasmin Singer: So beautifully said. There are so many more questions that I could ask you. I wanna know, most importantly right now, because I know one of the things you're so excited about is the university. Tell us just a little bit more about what some of the courses are going to be.

[00:46:43] Kendra Coulter: It's beautifully multidisciplinary, so it ensures that students get both depth and breadth, that broad cross section. So, the four required courses are Animals and Law and Policy, Animal Welfare and Sustainability Leadership, animal ethics, and nature and technology. So those are the heartbeat. Those are the core around which the degree exists.

And then students are building. They're building foundational knowledge. So whether it's an entrepreneurial thinking or in reconciliation and indigenous justice. Or environmental stewardship, there are some options there. Then there's a nice cross section of options in terms of sustainability and animal depth.

So are you delving into energy? Are you delving into global agriculture? Are you looking at animals and empire? Fantastic course that our history department has developed. Are you looking at the politics of the environment? So it's really customizable in terms of the students thinking, I think I want to pursue these paths or this path.

And then there's that cluster, that oh so important cluster, of organizational success, organizational and leadership success, where students are taking courses and things like equity, diversity and inclusion in organizations or organizational governance, starting a business or small enterprise in terms of some of the more, you know, really practical courses.

It's intended to ensure that all students are going to emerge with the knowledge as well as the skills while allowing them some flexibility. So I really see it as opening doors, you know, whether it's to the green economy, whether it's to ecotourism, conservation, animal protection and law enforcement, animal law and advocacy, undoubtedly entrepreneurship.

We have a lot of young people with ideas in terms of how do you create this business? How do you learn from remarkable entrepreneurs? And, you know, that's actually an interesting bit of a connection. So, some of your listeners and you may be familiar with the delicious Nuts for Cheese.

Available, I think, in Whole Foods around the United States, and in a few different places. So, the CEO and founder, Margaret Koons, is a graduate of Huron University College, my university. So Nuts for Cheese is here.

[00:48:50] Mariann Sullivan: Didn't we meet her at a veg fest, like 10 years ago, a veg fest in Canada?

[00:48:56] Jasmin Singer: I don't understand your memory, Mariann. I really don't.

[00:48:59] Mariann Sullivan: We did. It was called Duts for Cheese. It was delicious.

[00:49:02] Jasmin Singer: You leave your car door open and forget to close it, and then you remember that piece of information.

[00:49:08] Mariann Sullivan: Well, you know, it's more useful information than my car door.

[00:49:11] Jasmin Singer: Well, that's exciting, and now I'm hungry. We have so many more questions. We want to save some of them for the bonus content as well as let our darling flock ask you a few questions, but just to kind of wrap up here, would you say that's what you're going to be focusing on next is the university and your next book, like what are you most excited about right now?

[00:49:31] Kendra Coulter: All of it. I'm excited about the novel. I'm excited about the Tortoise's Tale undoubtedly and its impact. I'm excited about this program and what it will mean for young people. Diverse leaders with heart. That's a priority of our institution, is cultivating leaders with heart. So these are leaders with heart for people, animals, and the environment.

I'm working on new non fiction. I'm delving into the world of horses, even in more depth. This is a remarkable time, and I want to do it all. We have so much potential. We have so much possibility to save animals. So I'm thrilled about all of these developments. And absolutely thrilled to be here with you today.

[00:50:04] Jasmin Singer: Well, so are we! You're so inspiring! How can people find you and follow you online?

[00:50:11] Kendra Coulter: If anyone is still kicking around like me on X slash Twitter, I'm @DrKendraCoulter. So my last name is spelled like Ann Coulter's, but Ann Coulter and I have nothing in common. So don't get us mixed up. Dr. Kendra Coulter. I'm on Instagram gifted.Horse. And the university program, HuronatWestern.ca/AESL.

[00:50:35] Jasmin Singer: All right. Amazing. Kendra, thank you so much for sharing all of your incredible insights and work with us on our hen house today. We're going to keep you around for a few minutes, but we so, so appreciate you joining us today.

[00:50:48] Kendra Coulter: It is my absolute pleasure.