Plantega with Nil Zacharias

[00:00:05] Mariann Sullivan: I am so excited to have you. I have to say, I heard about this new thing, Plantega, and I read something about it and I was like, wow, that's such a great idea. And then, you know, it took me a while and then I looked into it. I was like, it's Nil! Nil is doing this.

Oh my god, we have to talk to him. So I am so excited about this idea. It's kind of like a whole new concept. So I think we should start off with the elevator speech. Can you just explain to people what it is that Plantega is and does?

[00:00:33] Nil Zacharias: Let's start at the highest level. I think what we're trying to do is to make vegan or plant based food easier to access everywhere, and that was sort of the initial core mission or vision we had. How we set about doing it is as you said, it's a little different from what anyone has done before.

Basically one way you can look at us and say that we are a fast food chain, except we don't own and operate a single kitchen. So we're not one in that sense. What we essentially do is we provide New York City's bodegas or corner stores a turnkey solution that enables them to sell Plantega's 100 percent plant based menu, which features all kinds of bodega classics that you would typically find in a corner store in New York City, like the bacon, egg and cheese or the chopped cheese, except ours is obviously 100 percent vegan.

And so we essentially empower them to sell these menu items. We set them up with all the training they need. We supply the products to them. We put signage inside the stores. And the end result is you can walk into 64 of our locations, that's the number we are right now in New York City, and you will see Plantega's menu that sits alongside the regular menu that the bodega has.

Plus we can be found on all major delivery apps. So if you're on Uber Eats, DoorDash or Grubhub, you can search for Plantega. Depending on where you are in New York City, multiple Plantega locations will show up for you, where you can order directly for delivery at home or wherever you are.

[00:01:59] Mariann Sullivan: I mean, I want to move back to New York. Like, what a great idea. Before we go any further, I always thought the bodega was specifically a New York City term. Is that right? And can you kind of define or describe what a bodega is?

[00:02:13] Nil Zacharias: Yeah, it's a very quintessentially New York phenomena and the origin of the term really comes from Puerto Rican and Dominican immigrants into New York City where the term bodega really refers to a storeroom or a wine cellar. But in New York City, it's come to mean a corner store that essentially carries an eclectic mix of items that you would need on a daily basis.

As anyone who's visited New York City or lives in New York City knows that the city's dense and populated and most people don't own cars. And so, it's really useful to have a little corner store down the block that you can run to to grab a quick drink or toilet paper or a toothbrush or in many cases breakfast, lunch or dinner or late night snack.

So the bodega fulfills this unique purpose that is very New York City, and you can't really find something like that outside of New York. And by recent estimates, there's about 13, 000 of them across New York City.

And nearly half of them have a grill and a deli counter, and they make fresh sandwiches on those grills.

Bodegas in some neighborhoods tend to outnumber grocery stores as well. So, they're a very essential part of the city, and depending on which neighborhood you are in, they perform a very crucial function.

[00:03:26] Mariann Sullivan: I mean, I wasn't that far from a supermarket, but I did at least half of my food shopping down the corner. And I should explain to everybody, the bodega is not some cute little name that we occasionally, that's what they're called. I mean, that's what everybody calls them. It's like, is there a bodega around here or whatever? It's, such a New York feature. And they're mostly independently owned, right?

[00:03:46] Nil Zacharias: Yeah, all of them are independently owned, immigrant owned businesses. They've gone through waves of change, too. So, as I mentioned earlier, it's originally Puerto Rican immigrants and Dominican immigrants, but over the years, most of them have sold their businesses to a majority of bodegas now are owned by Yemeni Americans, that run them.

Some of them are Korean owned and some are still Puerto Rican and Dominican owned but the vast majority that you come across tend to be owned by, kind of a recent wave of Yemeni American immigrants who've kind of taken over these stores.

[00:04:18] Mariann Sullivan: It's all so New York. I love it.

Tell us a bit about how it occurred to you that the bodega was a gap in the vegan food supply and you thought that you could fill it. Like, did it just dawn on you?

[00:04:31] Nil Zacharias: That's a good question. I mean, I've been vegan myself now for, it'll be 14 years this July, and I have been involved, sort of professionally, in this space, I would say, for the last decade, so the last 10 years, in various forms. I mean, I think the first few years of my work in this space was really focused on informing people because I held the belief that if everyone knew what I knew, people would change and we could bring about a change in our food system and

[00:05:00] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

[00:05:00] Nil Zacharias: I chuckle too when I think about it, because it is a bit of a naive view, right? So.

[00:05:05] Mariann Sullivan: Well, it turned out to be naive. I mean, thinking about it, I can see why we thought that. I mean, you know, it was like, Oh my God, I just have to tell everybody!

[00:05:12] Nil Zacharias: Yeah, and, you know, not to completely diminish the importance of information and education.

[00:05:18] Mariann Sullivan: No, it's a piece of the puzzle.

[00:05:20] Nil Zacharias: Yeah, it is an important piece of the puzzle. I wouldn't be here doing what I do today if I hadn't learned what I did learn, so there is some value to it, at least from my perspective, I can say there's value.

But I did that for a few years, through, initially a media business that I had, and then I wrote a book, I have a podcast that's currently on hiatus, but I still do. I think information is powerful and I think engaging people with stories and inspiring them still has its value. But I think over the years, I started to grow a little frustrated as I learned more about the intricacies of the food system that it's not all on end consumers and our choices.

Yes, we do bear a lot of responsibility, especially in the Western world, especially if we can afford to make food choices that are more sustainable, more healthy, more compassionate. But the problem is that the system that we have tends to favor what is essentially factory farm products.

And the more I learned about the food industry, I realized that we needed to start to make some systemic changes. Now, I know that sounds like a pretty broad mission to set out on, and by no means am I saying that I'm fixing the food system. But I got inspired by this idea that whatever I did next, I had to make it more tangible, make it involve actually changing the way people consume food, offer them new options.

And so that was at the back of my mind in the year 2020. For some context, this is in the middle of the pandemic. I was living in LA at that time. I'd actually moved out of New York in 2018 and was living in LA. in the midst of the pandemic, and I had read an article about how restaurants in New York City were shutting down because of COVID, but bodegas were deemed essential businesses.

And having spent most of my adult life in New York City, I've lived here now for around 20 years with a few years here and there outside of the city. I knew that's the last place you could go to find plant based food, at least since I've been eating plant based. I had given up the idea of eating a bodega sandwich again.

[00:07:18] Mariann Sullivan: Even when I would go, it would be like just to pick up packaged foods or, you know, like, like they sell loads and loads of different kinds of foods, but I wouldn't be at the deli counter ever, cause there would be nothing there to order. Yeah.

[00:07:30] Nil Zacharias: Yeah, if you were desperate, maybe you would go and ask them for a, I don't know if they have hummus or falafel or maybe a salad, but it depends on the bodega too. Most don't even offer those options. So that was the sort of the, the seed of the idea and, context is important. It was a time when, you know, people were talking a lot about food access and injustices, not just in our food system, but generally in society, in the summer of 2020.

And, I had been very involved in the plant based food industry and seen it's sort of rapid rise in the last five to ten years from something that people would dismiss to suddenly became the place where everyone wanted to pour in millions and this was going to be the future. That's still debatable whether it is completely the future, but we can talk about that. And I thought, well, this could be an interesting idea to launch in the midst of the pandemic. So we initially just launched as a pilot project. It wasn't meant to be something long term. It was a test. It I described it as an experiment and kind of a marketing ploy to get some plant based food companies involved.

And I reached out to a few that I knew, founders of a few plant based food manufacturers and I said, I've got this crazy idea, what if we can launch plant based products in the place you'd least expect to find it in the midst of this pandemic, especially in areas where you typically would not find a lot of vegan options. Would you be able to support us and provide us some free products?

So it really started off very small, and we launched in three stores, and, you know, the rest, I suppose, is history three years later.

[00:09:01] Mariann Sullivan: Well, we have to hear about all that history. I'm not sure that those three stores that you chose are the same ones you choose now, but how do you choose? Like, what do you look for in a bodega that would be a likely candidate for a Plantega menu? You mentioned that there are 13, 000, which really kind of blows my mind, but they vary dramatically from really being holes in the wall to being very elaborate stores.

So what's the sweet spot? What kind of bodega are you looking for?

[00:09:26] Nil Zacharias: Yeah, I mean, that's definitely evolved over time. I think in the beginning, to be completely honest, we were going with any one we could find.

[00:09:33] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I imagine. Yeah.

[00:09:35] Nil Zacharias: And I, frankly, the first time, I'll never forget this, it was November 2020. I'd moved back to New York and was ready to launch this thing.

And, we got a delivery of our first shipment of products that we were going to supply to one of our bodegas and. I felt a sense of panic come over me that this was never going to work. And I, I just saw the kind of, you know, people walking in, you know, really in a rush ordering their bodega sandwiches.

You know, everyone had masks on. This was in the middle of COVID.

[00:10:01] Mariann Sullivan: Seriously. I don't know how you'd sell anything in November of 2020.

[00:10:05] Nil Zacharias: And you know, the initial idea was a little different from what we do now. We initially were going to install, we did install, these branded refrigerators that had Plantega all over them that sold retail products. We would stock them with retail products, and we had a very small menu of four items, and the idea was that if I could get people to try the sandwiches and they like the sandwiches, perhaps they'd want to buy some of the plant based cheese and the burgers and take it home.

[00:10:33] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

[00:10:33] Nil Zacharias: And that was the initial idea. And when we were installing these fridges, I was like, this is not going to work, people aren't even looking at us sideways.

And it was a lot of learning, I suppose, for the first year. I think the first 12 stores we got were the hardest 12 we've ever gotten. We had to really work hard to find them. And ever since, we've doubled the number of stores we've launched every year. So, what we look for now is really, you know, we want, as you said, you know, there's so many bodegas.

They aren't all created equal. What we look for is, first and foremost, location. We have to find a store that's in a neighborhood that we don't have too many other stores in. We want to make sure it's in a busy area. It's either next to a crowded commercial area or hospital or some hub with a subway stop next to it that we know it regularly gets foot traffic.

And foot traffic initially was a lot more important to us than it is now because now we're also in delivery apps. But for the first two years, we were only sold in store, so foot traffic was all we cared about. So we would strategically pick stores that were in really, the most popular locations in those neighborhoods.

Ideally next to a commercial hub. We would also query the stores about their sandwich sales. Like, how much do they sell per month? Are they hitting a certain threshold that we think would be helpful for us to add plant based sandwiches to? Because some stores, they have a deli counter and they have a grill, but they don't do great business.

And it could be for reasons like They don't have great cooks or the consistency is bad. So we wanted to make sure we had stores that, firstly, great location, great cooks, good management, and most importantly, bought into this idea that they could sell a plant based menu and make more money. And that they were committed to this idea because we have to train them, we have to ensure that when they're making our sandwiches they are following our rules. And that's a lot to expect of bodegas that have been used to following their rules forever, right? In a city like New York City that change is the only constant, bodegas have stood the test of time, and it's partly because they kind of do things their own way, and they don't really like you coming in and telling them how to do things.

And so, we have to find the right stores that were willing to partner with us, really, and who saw the value of providing these options. And the reason they saw the value is because their customers were asking for it. And here's the bright spot in all of this is that what we unanimously heard from bodegas that we talked to was that people are asking for more options.

And it's usually their existing customers who come in and eat meat on most days. Just wanted more variety in their options and they'd heard about vegan or plant based products and were curious about them. And so, obviously to make it work for us, we had to come up with an entire model and pricing and everything so that they would stand to make money doing this and I think that's really proven to be, once we've dialed in those important factors, I think we figured out the magic equation.

[00:13:28] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. I mean, there's so many moving parts here. One thing that you mentioned that I wanted to get back to is like your rules. I was assuming when I heard about this that, you know, a lot of vegans are very fussy about things being cooked on separate grills, et cetera. I'm not one of them.

Like I kind of don't care, but a lot of people do. And that would be a lot to ask of a store. Where do you draw that line and where do you tell them to draw that line?

[00:13:51] Nil Zacharias: Yeah, from our perspective, you know, we are very aware of that. Most of our team are vegans ourselves, and opinions vary on how much we care about that. I myself don't care so much. I go to restaurants all the time that are not plant based, and I can't go in the kitchen and figure out what they're doing there.

So I live with it.

I'm

[00:14:08] Mariann Sullivan: the same way. But, for people who have different lines, you know, it's fine. I don't object to that. I don't think there's one particular place, but we do differ a lot.

[00:14:17] Nil Zacharias: I agree. And, we do our best. So what we've tried to do is we give the stores and the cooks training on firstly, how to store our menu items, how to prepare our menu items. And we instruct them that when they're cooking this on the grill to firstly use a separate section of the grill, ideally clean grill before they begin cooking the plant based options.

And it's not a perfect solution because in a busy time in a bodega, you're probably going to have multiple things being cooked on the same flat grill. And it's a pretty big grill where you can separate things,

[00:14:47] Mariann Sullivan: but it's not going to be perfect.

[00:14:49] Nil Zacharias: it's not going to be perfect. And, you know, that's a question we get often. And our response is our mission is to make this food available and accessible for everyone.

And we want more and more people to embrace eating plant based foods and vegan options. And yeah, it's not a perfect solution for someone who's super strict about cross contamination, but we obviously do our best and we train our stores to make sure that they follow what guidance we give them.

So, yeah.

[00:15:15] Mariann Sullivan: That seems like a very sensible line to draw. Can you tell us, you started telling us a little bit about your menu, but I know it's evolved a lot since. It sounds insane. Like, if I was in New York, oh my God, I would be eating this all the time. Like it just sounds so good.

Can you just give us an idea of what's on the menu and do all the stores have the full menu or how does that work? Are you still doing the refrigerator thing where people buy the product or are they just buying the sandwiches? How does it all work?

[00:15:42] Nil Zacharias: Yeah, so very quickly, we realized that people in bodegas don't really shop the way people shop at grocery stores. Mostly people are in a rush and grabbing a quick snack or a drink. They aren't going there to buy, you know, frozen burgers and refrigerator cheeses. And so we very quickly ditched the whole refrigerator idea after the three month pilot.

But what we did notice is that people were really, really into the sandwiches. They really enjoyed the sandwiches. And we had only four of them when we started off. And what we did in the beginning was try to emulate the sandwiches that you typically find in a bodega. And so this is for someone who's, you know, not from New York City.

I think it's important to set some context. You know, we talked a little bit about bodegas, but I think it's important to understand these stores are an essential part of the city as much as The subway system or the parks of the city or skyscrapers. They're iconic, right? They, as I said, in some neighborhoods, there are more bodegas than grocery stores.

And the thing that many of them share is that they have a deli counter and a grill behind the deli counter and a bodega cook that's whipping up something that I think is increasingly, I've started to believe is the ultimate culinary symbol of New York City. And that is the bodega sandwich. And the reason I say it's the ultimate symbol is because it is so quintessentially New York.

It's such an amalgamation of the different cultures and influences that have given rise to bodegas in the first place. But more importantly, these sandwiches, they all share some common traits. They're quick to prepare, they're easy to consume on the go. And they're satisfying enough that they can fuel your day.

And for a city like New York that is unrelentless in terms of its pace, the bodega sandwich I think matches the rhythm of the city because it moves with that same relentless pace. And I think our goal was, you know, there's this untold story behind this culinary sort of cultural aspect of New York City that maybe we could tap into.

So instead of convincing people you've got to eat vegan and plant based, maybe we could try to create an option within the environment someone's coming to eat food daily and offer them something that is slightly better. That is transparent in terms of the ingredients that we use, but looks and tastes exactly like what their used to.

So, you know, our sandwiches include some of the iconic New York City bodega sandwiches like the bacon egg and cheese, the sausage egg and cheese. We do a sandwich called a chopped cheese that is the legend goes was invented in a bodega, but essentially it's kind of like a Philly cheesesteak but it takes a burger patty and chops it up with onions and peppers and you melt cheese on top of it and it's kind of a big sloppy mess.

We do a plant based version of that, obviously. Over the years, obviously we've evolved our menu. The menu that you find in store is still, kind of minimal and simple. We only have 14 items on the menu. It features some of these favorites. It has some creations that we made up ourselves like the spicy breakfast burrito, that you typically wouldn't find in a bodega. It's almost like a California inspired burrito, but it's actually one of our top sellers and our top five items. We find a lot of meat eaters really like that because it really is complex in flavor.

It firstly affordable and it also packs a punch, and so you don't feel hungry after eating it. But you also, if you're a meat eater, you don't feel that terrible, sleepy feeling that you need to take a nap. And so we've expanded. Now we have chicken on the menu, we have a variety of meats and cheeses, and we partner with various brands to incorporate them onto our menu.

So it's expanded. In store, we have 14 items, but if you look at our delivery menu, we have 60 plus items, and that's always evolving.

[00:19:19] Mariann Sullivan: Wow. So, who's been buying it? Like, do you know? Like, are they vegan? Are they vegan curious? Are they flexitarian? Are they just meat eaters who made a mistake? I don't know. Like, like, who is it who's been buying them? They sound so good.

You would double your business if I moved back to New York.

[00:19:40] Nil Zacharias: It's a mix, you know, and for context, we're in 64 locations in all five boroughs. So we really kind of blanket the city in terms of our reach.

[00:19:49] Mariann Sullivan: I was going to ask you that, so you're all, I mean obviously 65 out of 13, 000 is just a beginning, but you're everywhere in the city, I didn't realize that, I thought maybe you were just in Manhattan and Brooklyn.

[00:19:59] Nil Zacharias: No, no, we're everywhere, and some of our top locations, the top five, are also all over the place. So we've got a store in Washington Heights, that's one of our top locations. Jamaica Queens is one of our top stores, and then Chelsea, Manhattan. So, you know, it's, and then Bushwick, Brooklyn. So in each neighborhood, I don't think we reach the same demographic.

The only commonality is we tend to skew younger in the demographic, in terms of people who are buying our food. We get a mix of people. Obviously, it's not just vegans or vegetarians. We found that majority of the people who are trying our food are curious about plant based and like to eat it sometimes of the week, if not all the time.

Some of them always went to their local bodega and bought a sandwich. And I'm now seeing our menu and maybe because our signage is attractive and we have great looking posters and, we are very transparent in terms of the ingredients used in our sandwiches. We've found a lot of people who walk up to the deli counter will gravitate towards our menu because they like the sound of it.

Even if they're not curious at all about plant based eating, it just looks exciting. This is an important lesson we've learned. You know, when we first launched, we thought we needed to educate the consumer. We needed to talk to them about the health benefits, the environmental benefits, and we were handing out flyers.

And then we kind of had a realization that the only way we could convince people to eat this food is to make the food really delicious and to make them want to crave it. Because the more I've learned, and I'm on this continuous journey of learning why people don't do the right thing.

And telling them, as we said, doesn't always work. So how can you engineer the environment in which they're consuming food to help them make or nudge them to make the better choice? I think that's this sort of endless journey of learning I've been on. And I've found that when it comes to food choices, most people are really irrational.

They don't really think much. It's very feelings based. And so if you can make them feel excited and fun and make the food look delicious, they're more likely to make that choice. Our choice just happens to be the right one, and it happens to be the plant-based one. So a lot of thought really goes into where we place our signage in the stores.

How we even market our brand, how we celebrate the people who are making the food in these stores, because they're all independent stores themselves, but also the diversity of people that are consuming the food. Because the last thing we want is for people to think that, you know, we're trying to bring plant-based food into underserved communities, and that is our sole purpose.

Not at all. Bodegas are for everyone, and we want people to embrace it as something exciting and aspirational, and it's a kind of cuisine that we think we are. We, we get to celebrate through our brand. And so that's a big part of our, if you look at our Instagram and you look at all the content we create, it's, it's all about fun, inviting, exciting, more importantly, we want people to try the food because once they try it, we know they'll be convinced that this is something that's worth trying again.

[00:22:48] Mariann Sullivan: No, if you just get them to try the food. And, actually the list of neighborhoods that you mentioned shows that you're appealing to everybody. Those go, you know, from extremely expensive, exclusive neighborhoods to very middle class, lower middle class neighborhoods. Like you're covering the waterfront here.

One of the things I wanted to check in with you about is, there's too many moving parts for us to completely cover your business model here. And you invented it, which is just really impressive. But one of them is where you get the food from, you're using brand name vegan foods, if you're still doing that.

You started out with that, and my understanding is that you're still doing that. Can you tell us how those relationships are. If there are any particular brands you want to, you want to mention, and how they are enjoying or appreciating this distribution chain?

[00:23:32] Nil Zacharias: Yeah, so, I mean, if you look at Plantega, we kind of have three components, really, and three key stakeholders that we serve. One is the stores itself. We obviously are providing them the solution that enables them to prepare and sell plant based foods, something that they couldn't do before. Or they tried to, but they couldn't do it in this comprehensive way that we have now enabled them to do.

[00:23:55] Mariann Sullivan: And it's working for them.

[00:23:57] Nil Zacharias: Exactly. Most importantly, it's making them money. And just to be brutally honest about it, they wouldn't do it if it didn't make them money.

[00:24:03] Mariann Sullivan: Right. No, they're not. Yeah, they're not in it for a cause. They run a store. Yeah.

[00:24:07] Nil Zacharias: Exactly. And you know, of course, once it starts working, they're very happy to tout the fact that it is better for people and it's great for animals and it's great for the planet. I've seen it happen. I've seen the store owners themselves, talk about it because they know that they stand to benefit from the sales of these items.

And then they start to see the bigger benefit that they're providing to their community.

[00:24:27] Mariann Sullivan: That's cool.

[00:24:28] Nil Zacharias: So we serve the bodegas, right? So we are kind of like that easy button to carry a plant based menu and our brand lives out of their existing stores. So it is a partnership. And to enable that, we've got this to, Plantega is really sort of the catalyst of the engine that makes it all run.

So the second stakeholder is the distributor, which is essentially a local distributor right outside of New York City called Ace Natural, where we warehouse all the products and we deliver the products to the stores from. When we started off, we used to do that ourselves, and quickly realized that that was going to be increasingly harder as we got into most stores.

In fact, the first few stores, I made the deliveries myself. But obviously that's not sustainable. So we partnered with a local distributor. Also, we do enough volume now that we are a sizable partner for them. And then the last component, but I think the one that's always been very important for us is the brands or the manufacturers.

Since we started off, this was only possible because the plant based food industry has evolved to the point that you even have products that could help us recreate a bacon, egg, and cheese or a sausage, egg, and cheese. Say five years ago, that wouldn't even be possible because the products didn't exist.

So we are very much, able to capitalize on what the hard work that some of these companies have put in and we partner with them to sort of create a win win scenario for them as well. So, the brands that work with us, to be on the menu they actually pay us a participation fee to be on the menu.

Of course, they stand to make sales as part of being part of the program. Plus they benefit from getting into distribution in New York City because we have an exclusive distributor. So for the brand's perspective, you know, we are, especially for an emerging brand that is trying to get people to try their products, Plantega becomes a great platform for them to launch their products into multiple locations in one of the most important cities in the country. And so not only are we putting their products on our menu, we put their brand logos on our menu, we put them on our posters, we create content in collaboration with the brands.

But then we also do sampling events outside bodegas, as well as at other locations where we showcase the specific products of the brands, and we try to get user feedback on it. So if you look at our Instagram, you'll see a lot of videos of people trying our sandwiches for the first time.

[00:26:42] Mariann Sullivan: It's really fun. It really is. Because we all know like that non vegans, they just have no idea how good the food is.

They're so astounded.

[00:26:51] Nil Zacharias: Yeah, and, you know, we've created a kind of a, it's almost like we offer a sort of a field marketing solution for them because all these companies are struggling to get going and to grow. And what they want is really for people to try their food and see the possibilities.

And in fact, a lot of the brands that we now work with are not big brands that you can find in grocery stores. There's some exceptions. So we work with Abbott's. They can be found in grocery stores, but our bacon, for example, that's made from red seaweed is a company called Omaro that you can't find anywhere, as far as I know, except at Plantega.

And then we work with Daring Chicken for our chicken, and they can be found in grocery stores. But we also carry Wayfair cheese. We have a cheese company called Vertage that's launching in retail soon that's featured in all our sliced cheeses. And we use zero egg for our egg, again, a product that cannot be found in grocery stores.

And the reason for that is, like, initially we started off, we worked with Beyond Meat and a few of the bigger names.

[00:27:47] Mariann Sullivan: The big ones. Yeah.

[00:27:49] Nil Zacharias: But, you know, over time we realized that firstly, what we are doing is really beneficial for companies that are also at that early stage of growth, where they're looking to create an authentic partnership that's culturally relevant and that showcases their food in a unique way.

You know, Beyond & Impossible have done great, but they're already on to bigger and better things. They're in fast food chains, and they're looking for mass distribution. So we're a good fit for someone who's just starting to launch. And then more importantly, you know, we found our new burger partner a year ago, called Karana. Their products again are not available in retail or in grocery stores yet. Their burgers are made from jackfruit and pea protein and increasingly we're finding our menu starting to shift in the direction where our products are not just mimicking meat, dairy, and eggs, but are also offering the added benefits of actually something that's plant based.

So it's clean ingredients, it's recognizable ingredients, it's something that people can eat and feel good about, and we want to make sure that our menu, by no means are we claiming we're a health food, but we are definitely a lot healthier than the food we're sold next to. And as companies start to evolve and get better at producing more nutritious products we want to be able to carry them, without compromising on taste, of course, because taste is the most important thing.

[00:29:04] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, no, always, but yeah, the accusations that vegan food is, the industry is either saying it's either rabbit food or ultra processed poison. And you know, like, as if the food that you normally get at the bodega is health food. So mimicking that, but making it just, you know, of course it's always just a little bit healthier.

Usually a lot healthier because it doesn't have all the saturated fat. And you're, it sounds like you're finding an even better spot. Well, that's very exciting. I love that concept. This really, this idea needs to be everywhere, Nil. You need to like have an empire.

You've started in New York and as we all know, if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere because that's what the song says. But how do you get this out of New York City, or have you just not thought that far? I mean, I really want this to be everywhere, but there aren't bodegas everywhere, but is there some kind of equivalent?

[00:29:54] Nil Zacharias: Yeah, so we've been, obviously, for the first three years of existence, we've been around for three years now. And for the first year, we were just figuring things out and struggling, struggling to convince bodegas, delivering the food ourselves. The second year we got a little better and word started to get around, especially amongst bodega owners, that there was this thing called Plantega that was bringing in additional revenue, that was bringing in new customers, that was bringing in customers that were coming in to try the Plantega menu, but then they would buy a drink and snacks.

And we were very hands-on, and we still are very hands-on. We, we send people to the stores. We interact with them on a regular basis. We replace the signage if the signage gets damaged. This is New York City, so crazy things happen. We put these a-frames outside the stores with big Plantega signs, people tend to steal them, so, you know, it's, uh, One of them was slashed with a knife once, you know, it's just, anything's possible.

We have stores in all kinds of neighborhoods, so we are prepared for everything. So, what's happened to us in the last few years is that since I think 2023 was the year we really set out to create an ambitious goal for ourselves that we were going to double from 32 locations into 64 locations and we achieved that goal.

Now we're in, I would say, pretty much, all neighborhoods in New York City, but if you look at the footprint that we have on delivery apps, we do cover a majority of the city. And I think what we've learned is that the future for us isn't just about expanding into more bodegas in New York City.

I think we probably will hover around 60 to 80, in the next few years in New York City. The goal in New York is to continue to optimize sales in each store so that we reach more and more people. So build our brand, build brand awareness, and, you know, become one of the most recognizable plant based brands in New York City.

That's really our mission. And, you know, the vegan community has been amazing. We hold events for them and we invite our friends and family. And followers, because if it wasn't for them, we wouldn't even have gotten on the map. That's the beauty of the power of community, is that they are amplifiers of your message.

And then that message reaches out to the 70, 80, 90 percent of other people who maybe want to eat plant based, but will never call themselves vegan. And I think our goal is to continue to have this very strong foundation in New York. But what happens beyond that? I think we've inadvertently stumbled on, or organically, I would say stumbled on, an idea that's hopefully bigger than what we're doing in New York.

Because we've created this very lean, kind of plant based concept in a box that we can quickly deploy into any kitchen and more importantly, it features a type of sandwich and food that is quintessentially New York and perhaps has some value outside of New York City. So our big idea is, can we take the idea of quick, convenient, bodega style sandwiches, and create a brand around it, which we have called Plantega?

And can we take that idea outside of New York City? And the first area we're actually looking at, Mariann, current discussions about is to see if we can partner with a institutional food service provider that runs cafeterias and college campuses outside of New York, and see if we can launch the Plantega concept there.

So our goal is in the next year or so to be able to run a pilot that's focused on a campus setting, because that demographic is exactly who we want to reach. And can we popularize the idea of bodega style sandwiches across the country? Except ours happens to be plant based, right? And no one's ever done that.

New York style pizza is popular all over the country. Bagels are popular all over the country, except they're not as good as the ones from New York.

[00:33:38] Mariann Sullivan: Right. Yeah, but you have to say that don't you? Like

That goes along with being from New York City. You have to say that when you say the word bagel.

[00:33:47] Nil Zacharias: And trust me, I've lived in LA and I looked for it.

I looked for bagels. I couldn't find them.

[00:33:51] Mariann Sullivan: And not every bagel in New York City is even good, but there are no good bagels outside of New York City as far as I can ascertain.

[00:33:58] Nil Zacharias: No, I couldn't find them at all. So one is college campuses, and the other idea is to potentially see if we can franchise the concept, but that's probably down the road. It's not something in the immediate future for us.

[00:34:09] Mariann Sullivan: All right, university, Rochester has a university, you know, like if you want a pilot program, I think that's a perfect place to try it out. I think universities make so much sense because, they want to be feeding their kids like healthier foods, not total junk, but you know, people that age, they can afford to eat indulgent food.

And your food, it kind of hits that sweet spot between indulgent and pretty healthy. So yeah, that seems like a great, great, you have really great ideas. And I can't wait to hear what is going to happen with this. I think you are on to something really, really brilliant. And can we talk a little bit, you mentioned at the beginning that you've kind of not really been following the food world as a whole, which you used to be the person who knew more about it than anybody.

But can we talk a little bit about, what's going on in the vegan world at large? Some of the new foods, the new companies.

[00:35:00] Nil Zacharias: Yeah, I mean, it's been a tough couple of years, I would say, in the food industry, if you're a plant based company. We kind of reached our peak in 2019, 2020 when Beyond Meat IPO ed and plant based burgers were like touted to be the next big thing.

And every investor with money wanted to pour money into the space. And as a result of it, a lot of new companies were launched, and not many new ideas actually.

[00:35:27] Mariann Sullivan: And not many great ones, a few really good ones, but most of them, you know, just either replicating what was already there or not even as good as what was already there.

[00:35:35] Nil Zacharias: Yeah. And so I think what we've seen in the last few years is as the industry has witnessed a bit of a, I wouldn't say a slowdown. I think it's more of a natural correction because it went through a bit of a hype phase, and now a few of those companies have had to shut down in the last couple of years.

There's been a bit of a right sizing of the market. And I think what you're seeing is that in each category of products, whether it's burgers or plant based chicken, or. plant based milk, or plant based cheeses, there are a few leaders that are emerging. And it's either companies that have had the best product or have done the best job of growing their companies in a very financially responsible way that are continuing to stay in business. And there's been a lot of turmoil in that space. I think it's a phase and I think we're going to emerge out of this phase much stronger. And I think you've also got to contextualize that we've not been in a great economic environment.

So it's not just the plant based food industry that's suffering. Any company that's relying on venture capital funding to survive and grow is facing the grim reality that you have to run a good business and not people are just going to give you money for the sake of growing while you burn their money in the process.

[00:36:44] Mariann Sullivan: It reminds me so much of the early days of the internet when so many companies, like it was just, this was going to be the big thing. And of course it was the big thing, but nobody knew that then. And all of these companies started up and they were all starting these new websites and sales and whatever.

And most of them just completely folded except for, you know, maybe Amazon and they did well.

[00:37:06] Nil Zacharias: Yeah, you're right. I used to, prior to focusing on food, I spent some time in the tech world. And so I'm very well aware of like, when the second wave of the internet came about where the iPhone was released and everyone was making apps for everything. I compare the plant based boom very similar to what was happening in, say, 20, 2009 and 10, where everything had to be an app and everyone thought everything needs to be a new app and you needed 10 social media apps.

And in the end, now you have three or four that people still use and the rest are long forgotten.

You know, also you've got to keep in mind what we're trying to do, right? We're trying to change the entire food system and we're learning it's much harder than we thought it was going to be.

We thought it was going to be pretty simple,

[00:37:46] Mariann Sullivan: And there are forces aligned against us, very, very, very powerful ones.

[00:37:50] Nil Zacharias: 100 percent. And, you know, we see that on a micro level at the bodegas where, you know, they carry the cheapest meat, dairy and eggs that are sold for, in some cases, half the price of our sandwiches because they are subsidized by the government and they're mass produced, while our companies are doing their best to keep that pricing low, but at the same time they've got to make money and they aren't given any government subsidies.

So the odds are definitely stacked against us, but I do think that the last couple of years I think the companies that emerge out of it will emerge with better products, with stronger businesses. And I think we're in this for the long haul. You've also got to understand consumer behavior.

And I think maybe that's where we, this is my take on it. I'm not sure everyone supports this idea, but I think where we got some of it wrong was we assume that if you could just create a meat like product that mimicked meat and just made it look, taste exactly like that, people would embrace this new thing and not ask questions of it, not question the nutrition, not question the ingredients.

And I think some, not all of the backlash is warranted. I think people, if you're going to market a product to be healthy, you better be able to back that up with some solid science, and otherwise, don't call it healthy, right? Just say it like it is. It's more sustainable. It's better for animals.

So I do think that there's a lot of people who were keen to try these products and were excited about it very quickly then turned against it, especially meat eaters who were curious about it. So there's been a bit of a pushback against the so called processed meats in the plant based space, but I think what's also emerging is products that are able to perform like meat, that have cleaner ingredient labels, like Abbott's, one of our brand partners, is a great example of that.

They've been around for a few years, they make ground beef, chicken, all plant based, as well as chorizo. Their ingredient list is pretty simple, but they still taste great and every meat eater I've fed that to has said that they love it. So there is a middle ground that can be found. You can still, if we know people are gravitating towards trying plant based because their primary driver is health, then we've got to be able to create more products that are delivering on that promise.

But, of course, it still has to taste great, and, you still have to be able to market it to consumers in a unique way. And I think, you know, what we're doing is trying to figure out what are those ways we can reach consumers and, get them to embrace the idea of this kind of food without having them to think too much about it.

I think, yeah, I think we overthink because we are, you know, we think about food a lot, and we obsess about changing the food system and ending factory farming and saving this planet, hopefully. But most people don't. You know, most people, their meals are that time for comfort. I mean, their lives are stressful enough.

And when they sit down to eat, the last thing they want is to be able to have to think too much. And I think that's the beauty of working in the food system, like I do now, is that we get to solve that problem. We get To make them crave one of our sandwiches that they, they want to eat again and again, without having to think too much about it.

But, if you dig deeper, you'll realize that there's a bigger mission to what we're doing and why we're doing this.

[00:41:01] Mariann Sullivan: And I think it might be also if it's sort of vaguely out there that this is also good for the planet or whatever, people are not going to think about that heavily, but it might, you know, tip the scales a little bit. I'll try that. You know, people kind of think of vegan as good, I think. Like, they just don't think about it a lot the way we do.

[00:41:19] Nil Zacharias: Yeah.

You're so right about that. In fact, when we, in the early days of Plantaga when we were trying to figure out what our brand voice was and I was trying to do this exercise for us to figure out who we wanted to be as a company and how do we want to show up in the world? And I think the way I described it was that when people encounter Plantega, they should see the food, they should feel joy. They should feel excited and welcome. It should look aspirational. Like we showcase people who are eating it that look like they're having a good time and enjoying themselves. And that should be the first thing you think about. But as you try our food and maybe you like it, maybe you come back again, and you dig deeper, you realize there's depth to our personality.

You, you find out that, you know, oh, underneath this laughter and fun and bright colors and great looking sandwiches, there's a much deeper mission to everything we do.

[00:42:10] Mariann Sullivan: can feel good about myself.

[00:42:11] Nil Zacharias: Exactly, and we find that the reason they'll try us is because it's fun and exciting and looks craveable and like they really get excited about trying the sandwiches, but the reason they stick with us is because they start to see the deeper mission, and I think You know, as much as I dissed information and convincing people, I think I'm still doing that, right?

Maybe my medium has changed slightly. Maybe I lead with the food now versus lead with statistics.

[00:42:34] Mariann Sullivan: Well, that makes total sense. You can't just like dump all this horrifying information on people and expect them to listen to you.

[00:42:40] Nil Zacharias: Yeah, and not to say, you know, plant based food is obviously vegan restaurants have existed and several amazing ones have existed for a long time. What makes us different is we're not another vegan restaurant. We're trying to change the food out of existing kitchens and operations that would have been slower to change and it probably would have taken 10 15 years to change.

We're just helping them accelerate that change.

[00:43:03] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. The people owning a bodega probably have a lot on their mind. They're not going to like totally innovate their menu without somebody helping them do it. So exactly. I mean, yeah the restaurants have existed for a long time, and thank God, and they're fabulous, but people have to go to them.

You're really going to the people.

[00:43:20] Nil Zacharias: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's kind of almost, you know, doing what we really like to do, which is, create amazing menu items and, kind of run the engine behind the scenes to bring this food everywhere. But we leverage the strengths of these independent locations. We leverage the strengths of the distributor that does what they do really well.

And then of course we leverage the strengths of our brands and our food manufacturers who are creating these amazing products that we showcase on our menu. And it's kind of a, in a way, it's a beautiful collaborative experience. Like we are all mutually benefiting from each other and we're creating something unique.

But the end result for a consumer or for a person who's looking to make a food choice is they now have a menu that has our amazing items in it. And what goes behind the scenes is, is if they want to know, they can find out, but they don't really need to. All they need to know is they can walk to one of their local bodegas and indulge in a sandwich that they love without compromising on taste, but also having these positive benefits on their health, on the planet, and animals, whatever might be driving them.

[00:44:25] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, we think of it as the argument comes first, but really the food comes first, and that's what you're doing. And then the arguments can, for some people they'll listen to them and change in bigger ways. Not everybody, but some people. And that's how that works.

So I'm so excited about it, Nil, as you might be able to tell.

[00:44:42] Nil Zacharias: I'm so happy to hear that because, you know, I can tell you I've gone through waves of being involved in the food industry, on the food space, thinking about bringing about change and been frustrated for a longest time. You know, I feel I couldn't really measure what impact I was having with any of the work I'd done for the last several years.

And the difference now I find with Plantega is that, I mean, yeah, there is some measurable impact I can point to. I can tell you how many, you know, 25 percent of the sales in most of our bodegas that have our menu come from our menu. So we're making about 20 to 25 percent of their overall sales. And on the weekends, we're making about 60 percent of the sales.

So we're displacing meat. And we're more expensive.

[00:45:22] Mariann Sullivan: Because you're not subsidized.

[00:45:24] Nil Zacharias: Exactly.

[00:45:25] Mariann Sullivan: It's, insane.

[00:45:26] Nil Zacharias: we're making that tangible impact, and yes, we can measure some of that, but for me, the moment I knew I was doing the right thing is I was in one of our bodegas, I think we had a sampling event coming up and we were just prepping some stuff in the kitchen, and I looked at this guy walk in, this was in Washington Heights, this guy walks in to the bodega, looks at the cook, and And just nods.

And the cook starts making something on the grill. And I was like, what are you making? And he's like, Oh, he comes here every day and he gets the vegan chopped cheese. And that was a moment I felt, oh, okay, so we're just, we're just another option now that's become that guy's regular. He walks in every morning and orders it.

And that's happening across the city. And just to imagine

[00:46:08] Mariann Sullivan: it's like a bar, right? Like, you know, like your local bar, like you go in and they know who you are, and they know what you want. That's what a bodega is like, and now they know that you're the guy who wants vegan.

[00:46:18] Nil Zacharias: Yeah, exactly. And that's also a unique part about bodegas in a city like New York, which is like criticized for being anonymous and kind of aloof. Bodegas are these small communal spaces where, you know, you could have a Wall Street broker in line with a construction worker, both standing in line to get a bodega sandwich or bacon, egg and cheese or something.

And it's, yeah, you know, you've really become a New Yorker when your bodega guy recognizes you.

[00:46:45] Mariann Sullivan: Well, it's very exciting. I can't wait to hear more about like your successes, which I'm sure are going to be piling on. I guess I have to let you go now, but I do want to talk to you a little bit more about the big picture and maybe we can follow up on that in the bonus section because I know you do, even though you've been obsessed with this, you do have your finger really on the pulse of the vegan world.

So thank you so much for joining us, Nil, and thank you for doing this. It's not every week I get to talk to somebody who's, I mean, every week I get to talk to somebody who's doing something amazing but this is really happening.

[00:47:19] Nil Zacharias: Well, Thank you so much.