Juicy Marbles with Vladimir Mićković

[00:00:05] Mariann Sullivan: I did my best in pronouncing your name, but I'm sure I got it wrong. Cause you were just telling me how to pronounce your name, and you said it twice, that's the real way you pronounce it, and then you said it the second way, the way Americans pronounce it, and they sounded exactly the same to me, so, uh, I assume I got it wrong, but I did my best.

All right.

[00:00:21] Vladimir Mićković: It was good.

[00:00:22] Mariann Sullivan: I'm super excited about this interview. As I mentioned, I hope you're as funny in person as you are in your writing, because your writing is very well done. It's very amusing. We have lots to talk about, but I've kind of wanted to start, you know, we're going to talk about veganism, and obviously going to talk about Juicy Marbles, which is the company that you are a co founder of, and a lot about your theories of change and all of that.

But I wanted to start out just talking a little bit about Slovenia, because I don't know much about Slovenia. Just kind of set the scene, like what should I know about it? What is the food like, obviously? What is the country like?

[00:00:55] Vladimir Mićković: Well, I will start by saying that it's way more laid back than the U. S., which our PR team keeps reminding me because it seems, I mean, I, I wasn't aware of it until we started regularly working with them that we have a national holiday constantly So we have a lot of work... they're like no wonder you get nothing done.

[00:01:19] Mariann Sullivan: I like it already.

[00:01:21] Vladimir Mićković: Yeah, it's, a small country.

The capital is close to the mountains and the seaside equally. So there's like an hour drive to whatever kind of natural scene one desires. You know, from the city center of Ljubljana, it takes like 10 minutes to get to the village side. So, yeah. It's very, very tiny and, you know, life kind of follows suit.

It's, you know, despite people who are not from the capital city seeing Ljubljana as this crazy hustle and bustle metropolitan, to my wife, who is from New York, and me having seen New York, I know it's nothing of the sort. So No, it's a, it's a beautiful, beautiful place to live. And I do enjoy the tempo and being somewhat isolated from the brutal tempo of current society.

So.

[00:02:13] Mariann Sullivan: It sounds delightful.

[00:02:14] Vladimir Mićković: Yeah, that's our little country. It's, it's, it's delightful and green. Yeah.

[00:02:18] Mariann Sullivan: The one thing I do know about it, I mean I really don't know a lot about it, so this really is probably the one thing I know about it, is that you use, I think used to have a vegan president, isn't that right?

[00:02:29] Vladimir Mićković: I don't know if he was vegan, you know, I think he turned vegetarian, which at the time was very radical, especially in the Balkans. Anybody who even remotely, even decreases meat here is already considered radical. And in the nineties, you know, it was even more so. It was a period where he got into spiritualism and, you know, Eastern philosophy.

So he was a very, very interesting character. Unfortunately, I was too young to comprehend, but like reading certain things of that period, I find them quite interesting, but I don't really know much more than that, but I don't think he was fully vegan.

[00:03:09] Mariann Sullivan: That's really interesting. As I said, I didn't realize it was that long ago, but he did sound like a really interesting guy. So what about you? You're in the Balkans, you're indicating that not eating meat is considered unusual, at least.

What's your vegan story?

[00:03:23] Vladimir Mićković: My vegan story is I am not vegan. I've had periods where I eat less or more animal products. Right now I would say I'm in a 90/10 split.

It was a very selfish progression for me. And I was, I guess, fully vegan for about a year. It didn't start for any altruistic reasoning, to be quite frank.

So I never really got into it through any kind of ideological stance. It was just like trying to eat many different ways and I found that eating predominantly plant based I've felt the best. And then also, you know as you research, as one does, you also start seeing the ethical aspects, the environmental aspects, which I absolutely found very compelling. I don't know if it's a much of an interesting story. What are your thoughts?

[00:04:18] Mariann Sullivan: I mean, I thought you were vegan, so that's why I asked you, because I thought it was interesting, but also, we'll get into this a little bit, but from your writing, it seemed like you would almost prefer that vegan was a term that was applied to food rather than to people, and I was reading that thinking that you were vegan, and you kind of would like everybody to be vegan, but that the best way to do that is not to tell them that they should be vegan, but just call the food vegan and you know, not make it so much of an identity.

[00:04:47] Vladimir Mićković: Yeah. No, I mean, I agree with that. I think I do wish, first of all, let's just put it this way. I think veganism is on the right side of things. So I think if I were to objectively look at what is the moral choice, I absolutely agree with the values of veganism. So I think there is this idea of a perfect world. And I think there is a unperfect way to get to that situation. So I've always kind of been thinking, you know, in terms of also how that informs communication of plant based brands, where is this nuance that will have the most impact in the short to midterm? Because I feel like if we look at the last 10 years, This 0-1 switch from, you know, you got to turn vegan else you are wrong or whatever was that's how people interpret it.

I felt did more damage to the movement than it's useful, but that's of course arguable. I think also at the same time there was this very commercial introduction to veganism, so it's hard to say was this bad or good, but let's say right now the sentiment is not the best. So I was just thinking, okay, so I do wish that this was a vegan world.

I wish that we would get there as fast as possible. And I think a lot of things that make it hard for people, I would say, is culture and convenience. Right? I'm going from myself, you know, I think that's why I am not fully vegan. You know, it's selfish, it's completely selfish, but I, the restaurant scene is predominantly carnivore, and then you, you know, these restaurants, they do have vegan options, but it's reluctant options.

It's, okay, let's satisfy the trend. So they'll do a dish that's very uncreative and they'll just remove the meat.

[00:06:45] Mariann Sullivan: Been there, done that. Right. Or they'lll do a dish that's designed to have cheese in it, and they'll remove the cheese, and the cheese was there to provide all the flavor. So you're left with a dish that has no flavor whatsoever. Yeah.

[00:06:59] Vladimir Mićković: Exactly, so that's the cultural restaurant scene. And then there's, you know, depending where you live, more or less offerings, and it's gonna take time for convenience to make it easy. Like here in Slovenia, I can tell you the plant based meat options are awful.

We really don't have a lot of good substitutes, the good brands haven't yet made it here. What we have is what the retailers have jumped on the opportunity when Impossible and Beyond came to the scene. I feel like there was this hype and then everybody was jumping on the bandwagon.

[00:07:34] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, same here.

[00:07:35] Vladimir Mićković: Yeah, so people scrambled to open any kind of, plant, you know, to throw out any kind of plant based alternative.

And it was complete disregard for quality, you know, coagulated starch with yellow coloring, call it cheddar, you know, nothing matters.

[00:07:52] Mariann Sullivan: But you, your first, I mean, maybe not your first business venture, but you had a vegan restaurant, right? You opened a vegan restaurant, is that right?

[00:08:00] Vladimir Mićković: I did.

[00:08:01] Mariann Sullivan: So tell us a little bit about that, why you decided to do that, and were you able to break this mold of like, uh, just call it vegan, because it's vegan, but not worry that much about whether it's good?

[00:08:13] Vladimir Mićković: Yeah, I would say that was a successful experiment. So the idea behind the restaurant was how to make it appealing to everybody, not just vegans. So I, at the time, was just frequenting in anything that was vegan. I was very curious in the diet, any vegan restaurant that opened, I went to, but I was ultimately, usually disappointed as it wasn't opened by people who were interested in the culinary arts, but just people who were activists.

So yeah, I mean, I was saddened by that. And at the time I still was running a design agency and identity agency. And I just was kind of disillusioned by that work. I didn't like just this cycling through clients. So I really wanted to work with food and I really enjoyed plant based cooking.

So that was kind of the initial driver. And then after a year of living in a van, traveling with my wife through the States and tasting all kinds of restaurants and, you know, experiencing all sorts of hospitality, I just developed a thesis, that was, okay, people are willing to eat anything basically, as long as it's really good.

And it's not presented to them as an identity. So it's not like you are here, you are becoming this or that. So we didn't, we never mentioned veganism in the restaurant. The tagline was home for semi responsible hedonists, which was kind of the semi, was a nod to you know, the human imperfection, to the 10%, to not necessarily telling the people you need to immediately live up to the highest standards, which I always thought would make it easier for people.

And, you know, if we think about, would we be happy if people ate 50 percent plant based within the next 10 years, that would be an amazing result, right? That's from, you know, a sliver percentage to a half, right? So I feel like that's kind of what's been informing how we approach these things is let's think of the next decade of progress and what that can be. So, we opened the place, uh, the home for semi responsible hedonists, and we worked with chefs who were, trained in Michelin star restaurants, but we developed dishes that were more approachable. It wasn't like high cuisine. It was basically I don't know how to call it, like homey cooking, but slightly elevated.

And we had this algorithm for dishes that was, you know, for every chewy thing, there had to be a crispy thing. For every salty thing, there had to be a sweet contrast. So we were really developing these dishes like artworks and they had to penetrate layers of prejudice people had towards plant based food.

And lucky for us, we were located in this area where there were a lot of businesses around, like banks and insurance companies, and just people who definitely did not dabble in plant based, but they had nowhere to eat in that neighborhood.

[00:11:16] Mariann Sullivan: Well that was an excellent choice.

[00:11:18] Vladimir Mićković: Yeah, that was lucky.

It was not particularly endowed with many restaurants. There were a few, but you know, you get sick of stuff. So you want to cycle. So, you know, people started giving us chance here and there, you know? We were also blasting them with leaflets at some point, but anyway. The momentum started growing really quickly, and I remember people daily, and I really do mean daily, sharing the sentiment, thank you for not shoving veganism down my throat.

I just want to eat this kind of food without entering a place that's where I feel like I am one of them, you know. This is the, you know, I believe that the brand of is what people believe. You know, so there are as many brands as there are beliefs about something. So this is what people see veganism as, whether we like it or not, and it's not a pretty picture in many regards.

So. I do like the idea of bringing it closer to people, but it's like, it takes steps for most people. It's difficult. So,

[00:12:19] Mariann Sullivan: I, I do think that, for most people, and this isn't the way it is for most vegans, I think, who came to it through philosophy and through activism or whatever, but for most people, finding out that the food is delicious is actually the necessary first step.

Not everybody then goes on to think more about the issues and to get serious more about it, but some of them do. But that first step has got to be like, I can eat this food.

If you can't convince them of that, they're not going to even, they're never going to get to that second step of thinking about it, of what we're doing to animals.

[00:12:53] Vladimir Mićković: Yeah, I think there has to be a certain threshold where it just, I think in like 15 to 20 years, it will happen that it will be cooler not to eat meat than it is right now.

[00:13:06] Mariann Sullivan: Well, I hope it's faster than that.

[00:13:08] Vladimir Mićković: Yeah, of course, but I, yeah, it's, it's weird predicting these things, you know, like how long it's going to take.

But, you know, whatever it is, at some point there's going to be a tipping point, there's going to be enough people. And this initial ideological response is going to wean off. And there will be much more options and many more offerings in restaurants. And it's just gonna, it's gonna be a tipping point where also people are gonna feel better when they experiment with food.

So, and like you said, People are going to arrive at it in many different ways. And my assumption is that not everybody or like most people won't go all the way, but they will significantly decrease meat. And also I think, you know, if we look at the chart of meat in the past 20 years, the cost of meat has been climbing steeply.

So again, you know, there will be selfish economical reasons driving this as well I think. And bit by bit, people will be more open to decreasing the meat intake, which I think is completely also unnaturally high. Since we've introduced commercial fridges, it's just gone through the roof.

And it went from this special occasion, you know, celebration slash Sunday food to every single meal has some kind of meat in it. And it's just, I think we went too far. Even if we remove all the ideology and we just look at nutrition and food and where you get protein , it's just like we're really relying too hard.

[00:14:46] Mariann Sullivan: Oh, totally.

Totally. There's just so much wrong with everything to do with the meat industry, that if people just started paying any kind of attention, it would become so obvious that this is a disaster. And, you know, even if you don't care at all about animals, it's just a disaster for people. So, the whole goal is just to get people to open their eyes a little bit and I think good food, you know, is definitely one of the, there's so many different pieces to changing people's attitudes, but good food is a hugely crucial piece.

[00:15:16] Vladimir Mićković: One of the things that we're trying to also shine a light on that, as you said, if you remove ethics and treatment of animals, and even if we remove the environmental impact of animal agriculture, there is this thing that's really not talked about, and it's that currently this food system is not serving even humans.

Because 80 percent of the food that we grow from earth, we feed the livestock in exchange for 17 or 18 percent of worldwide calories. While there's 2 billion people who don't have food security, of which 800 million are malnourished. So we already grow enough foods to feed all living people, all humans, and we give it to livestock so we in the West can engorge on more meat and in the mean, we're destroying the environment.

And, you know, to produce this insane quantity of meat, it's done in the most egregious possible way. So. There's this humanitarian aspect that's not even discussed. And sometimes I feel like maybe we need to talk about that. Maybe we're going to at least acknowledge our kind more than we do animal kind.

[00:16:31] Mariann Sullivan: I totally agree with you that of the huge harms caused by animal agriculture, I mean the health harms, the environmental harms, the unbelievably brutal harms to the animal, the unbelievable inefficiency of it is something that is just overlooked, and it's hugely important.

And the meat industry is constantly talking about how they're feeding the world. They're not feeding the world, they're feeding the West.

[00:16:53] Vladimir Mićković: It's true. Yeah, that's just a narrative feeding the world and these industries like dairy, meat, oil are these huge legacy industries that are so interwoven with politics that there is no movement. But it's crumbling now because it was a race to the bottom with margins and it's unsustainable.

So every food safety regulation that comes in makes meat more expensive. This is why people are saying that fast food is now not cheap anymore. It's because the reality is catching up. It cannot be that cheap. I was on the restaurant side of things and I'm, you know, when food went more expensive on the one side, of course, I'm sad because it costs more.

But on the other hand, I really felt like, finally, because the food industry has been designed as a race to the bottom and the margins are awful, which always results in people working in bad conditions and, you know, it gets even worse for, for, the animal population. So it's just so much wrong with this food system.

And I feel like what we're lacking is a broader objective discussion about solutions that will slowly get us to a better position. Everything has become a zero one game. You know, you're either on this side or you're on that side in every single issue. And you know, we've lost, if we've ever had, I'm too young to know, was there ever dialogue in this society, but it feels like there is none, and we've kind of pitted against each other instead of having kind of common goals.

[00:18:33] Mariann Sullivan: I do think it's gotten worse. I, I mean, I'm not sure it was ever great, but I do think it's gotten worse, the black or white kind of thinking. Particularly about food. All right. We've talked a lot about generalities, but I think it's time to talk about Juicy Marbles. Since that's what we want to hear about and that's what you want to talk about.

So just tell us what is Juicy Marbles? And we'll get into what the products are, but tell me how it started and tell me where it is.

[00:18:57] Vladimir Mićković: First of all, I'd just like to push back on the notion that that's what I would like to talk about. I really enjoy talking about these other things as well.

[00:19:04] Mariann Sullivan: I assumed you wanted to talk about it.

[00:19:06] Vladimir Mićković: No, I mean. Juicy Marbles is an extension of these other things that we talked about, it's finding ways to give that tiny little contribution. You know, we're not saving the world, we're just doing our little thing, which we think is a slight improvement on the previous thing. So all of the things that we talked broadly and from the philosophical side is what drives people like me and my co founders to even embark on these crazy projects, like making, you know, ribs out of, out of plants.

[00:19:42] Mariann Sullivan: Ribs where you can, uh, actually eat the bones.

[00:19:45] Vladimir Mićković: Yes, you can. Although, you know, uh, they're not that good. They're not bad, but they're, they're not very tasty.

[00:19:53] Mariann Sullivan: The ribs are good. The ribs are good, just the bones aren't that good.

[00:19:56] Vladimir Mićković: Yeah, no, people, I mean, we said they're edible because we have once, literally only once, managed to prepare them well. One of our colleagues deep fried them and spiced them and they were like a crispy snack and that was enough for me to completely base the initial communication of bones around the concept of them being edible, which then people were very cordially and kindly saying, yeah, you know, the ribs were great, but the bones I've tried them, I didn't find a way to make them nice. But they are edible.

[00:20:31] Mariann Sullivan: Well, if you deep fry anything and, and, spice it, it's pretty good.

[00:20:36] Vladimir Mićković: Exactly. I haven't managed to replicate that experience, though. I tried it at home.

[00:20:41] Mariann Sullivan: I wanted you to get around to telling us about the good stuff that Juicy Marbles makes, not just how the bones aren't very good. Probably most people listening are not familiar with your products, so even though I know that's not the only reason you're here, and I acknowledge that.

I mean, people do want to hear about the products, so tell us, like, what is it that you make?

[00:20:59] Vladimir Mićković: So we make plant based whole cuts. That's as simple as that. So we noticed that plant based meats are revolving around fast food items, like hot dogs, burgers, and so forth. And being home chefs and people who enjoy cooking diversely, hosting, and so forth, we wanted to create meats that kind of fit into that lifestyle of feeding friends and family and making a different meal every day. And, you know, usually you work with staples. And, you know, meat is a staple. So people buy a whole slab of meat, and make all sorts of things like stews and salads and, just straight up meat with some potatoes, whatever.

So our premise was let's make plant based meats that enable home chefs all the versatility and creativity that's associated with whole cuts. And let's make these meats as nutritious as possible and as clean label as possible. So we manage now, we're, we're just about to launch new ribs, we've been gathering feedback.

So like just a quick glance of the portfolio. We started with the filet. With like a marbled filet. It's like a filet mignon is considered a premium cut of meat. So, you know, given that our production was feeble and small in the beginning, we needed to come with a higher margin product and it was kind of showcasing what we can do.

So it was the world's first marbled quote unquote steak. And then we followed up with a whole log, which was basically the fillet, but pre cut. So it was just like a tube, which was meant as a bargain buy where you just cut it into any way you want and make any kind of dish you want. And then we started one year ago, we developed ribs with bones, as you said, edible bones, and we started selling them in limited batches to people online. And we really wanted to hear what people think before we go full on publicly out with it, and there was this underlying message that was never directly spoken, but it was in between the lines, and it was kind of that people really want plant based meats to live up to the nutritional expectation of food as well as just imitating the sensory aspects, right?

So, you know, plant based meats in general have gotten this reputation like, Sure, sure, sure. You can mimic the texture and all that, but you don't have all the micronutrients or, you know, you have all these weird ingredients. So that was kind of the focus of our R& D team was to just remove methylcellulose and carrageenan, which were two ingredients that were not very popular in the clean eating community.

Scientifically speaking, these ingredients aren't really harmful, especially in the ridiculously small dosages that were used. But, you know, the public opinion is what it is. So there's no reason to go against it. And it was also in our interest to remove anything that sounds weird or scary, so we did that.

[00:24:05] Mariann Sullivan: Even though people eat weird and scary ingredients all the time, I think the meat industry has been quite successful in kind of targeting plant based meats as, you know, when you eat them here, these ingredients are weird and, and possibly harmful.

[00:24:20] Vladimir Mićković: Yeah. They take supplements, which are encapsulated in methyl cellose, nobody thinks about that.

It doesn't matter. I feel like plant based needs to deliver a higher standard. You know, I feel like that's what we have to deliver. We can, since we are making the meat, we are, you know, quote unquote, building the product.

We can do whatever we want. So why not up the nutrition? Why not put all the micronutrients that people associate with meat, and just ensure that this is a wholesome thing to eat that you can, without any feeling of, oh, this is a guilty pleasure, include it into your diet. And that's what we're trying to do.

So, what we've learned over the past years is that that really does matter to people a lot. And also, as we said, you know, I feel like plant based in general has to live up to a high standard. I noticed this thing, people will fuck up meat and they'll blame themselves.

They'll be like, ah, I left it on the pan for too long and it turned out dry or I didn't thaw it long enough. It was me. It was me, but then they'll try one plant based burger and maybe they'll pick the wrong brand and it will not be that good or something and it'll be I knew it! I knew this is all shit, you know. The scrutiny is on a higher level and we can understand the rational side of it however we want, but people are not going to question themselves to that extent to say like, Oh, do I have some cognitive dissonance here?

You know, it's like, it's not going to work like that. So we really need to deliver on a standard that is just out there. So that's what we've been kind of working on. And I'm very proud of the work the team did. The baby ribs, which is what the new ribs will be called, have the cleanest label out there, full of micronutrients that people associate with meat, that help with, you know, muscle synthesis, and cognition, and metabolism, whatever, all of these good things that our bodies do.

So I'm very proud of this new direction, and that we took a stance that it's not just the sensory aspect, but it's also that we're going to deliver the most nutritious, as nutritious as possible products. So that's kind of what we do.

That's where we're at right now.

[00:26:34] Mariann Sullivan: So they're available. Well, I know we have listeners that aren't in the United States and are and about, but most of our listeners are in the United States. Like, they're available here by mail, right? They're not in stores yet.

[00:26:48] Vladimir Mićković: Currently only via our website, which I hope in 2025 will change, but once you get into retailers, you really need to have a steady supply. So if they say give me two more pallets next week, you need to be able to deliver, else you pay really, really high fines. Yeah, so we're waiting for that threshold.

[00:27:09] Mariann Sullivan: I mean, you have trouble keeping up with the supply, right? I mean, which I guess is a good problem to have, like you have more orders sometimes than you can fulfill, but you're still struggling with scaling, is that right?

[00:27:21] Vladimir Mićković: Scale is hard. Scale is very, very hard. I'm not sure there's any company, especially, there's no plug and play technology for whole cuts. You know, with burgers, I feel like you kind of use the same existing platforms that meat already has or hot dogs, you know, it's not very different making a plant based hot dog than it is making a animal based hot dog.

While for whole cuts, we, we have to develop our own production method. And also, we noticed when we started producing a little more, you know, as soon as you press the pedal a little bit, quality can become dodgy. So you have to be very careful in balancing scale and quality. And I feel like we could scale faster, but on the long term, we would damage not only our reputation, but the entire category's reputation, right?

So, it hurts in the short term and it's moving way slower than we would want, but at the same time, that's not the point. I think the point is to deliver the best possible product. And I'm very happy that the demand is higher than the supply. And it, it will continue to be like that for a while.

And that's kind of comfortable in its own way, but it's very uncomfortable because at the same time, there is this prejudice of plant based meat being very expensive, and we obviously fall into that category. It's not very cheap, but that's just the economy of scale, and people are often not very understanding towards that, and it hurts in the short term because it feels like we're perpetuating the stereotype of elite vegan food or whatever.

But it's really just we're a small company and we wanna maintain a level of quality that will not either hurt our reputation or generally the reputation of the category which has been hurt. So we've got to balance these things. So yeah, scale, scale is not easy. Scale is very, very hard.

[00:29:24] Mariann Sullivan: Well, I looked on the website. I haven't tried the product yet, which is my fault.

[00:29:28] Vladimir Mićković: I'll send some over.

[00:29:29] Mariann Sullivan: I'm looking forward to trying it. Oh, very nice. Is it, are you including all of the listeners or just me? Only kidding.

[00:29:37] Vladimir Mićković: Give me a list!

[00:29:41] Mariann Sullivan: But I am looking forward to trying it. I looked on the website and it's not like there was nothing available. It's just not every single. So, you know, you have several different products, and not all of them were available at the same time. So it is available, it is expensive, but you get a lot.

I mean, it's not like you just get a tiny amount, but I totally understand. I mean, I, you know, starting out is very hard. I'm sure you're not making a mint on it. It's just that until you scale, it's really hard to cover all of your costs, and so, I hope people who can afford to do try it.

And, I'm gonna try it, and I'll talk about it, I'll report back, but I'm pretty sure it's good. I don't know why, I just have a lot of confidence in it. It may be just that you're a good salesperson.

[00:30:21] Vladimir Mićković: I'll tell you it's just food. You know, some people like it, some people don't. And it's also what we try to communicate. With every food, you'll have that. And it's also, I would never say it's exactly like meat. That's one of the things that we also try to kind of remove ourselves from, I don't think you need to make a one for one replica of meat, though, you know, it's weird because we do take inspiration from it, but I would say more from these like sensory pillars, like, you know, umami, tender texture, this and that crust, all of that, but it's, it's like saying pork is the same as beef, you know, it's not.

Nor is chicken the same as pork or whatever. So, yeah, and meat from soy or peas is just not the same as any of those, and there is a difference. And I feel like as soon as you make the direct comparison and say this is exactly like meat, people will have this expectation. So even if something is good, but it doesn't match the expectation, it's going to fall short in their eyes.

But it's hard to avoid the comparison.

[00:31:24] Mariann Sullivan: But even if you don't make the comparison, they'll make the comparison. I mean, how many times have I or everybody listening, prepared something delicious, given it to people, and they will say, oh, it's good, but it's not exactly like, uh, whatever it is.

Like, who cares? You just said it was good. That's the point. And it kind of, I mean, it's both good, and it kind of rings that bell. You know, it doesn't maybe taste exactly the same, but it satisfies the same urge that whatever meat product or egg product or whatever it is you're trying to replicate does. But yeah, it's not exactly the same. That's, who cares?

[00:31:59] Vladimir Mićković: Who cares. We had a line of products also with the restaurant. We made our own deli meats and different kinds of meats, and cheeses and feta and all. We, we were fermenting anything that could be fermented. And we had this, we were thinking of going before, you know, COVID completely destroyed us, we had this ambition of going to the retailers. So we had a test at one of the retailers. And I remember that moment was so funny. Like they were eating and you can clearly see the gusto. I mean, we did a good product. It was like a pastrami like thing. And it was very meaty, not like meat, but just, it had that, that flavor, full experience, crispy crust.

It was just good. I believe it was objectively good though. There is no such thing, but you know. And these guys are like really munching on it, and you're seeing glee on their face. And he's like, man, this is, this is really good. You know, it's not for me. Like, what just happened?

[00:32:57] Mariann Sullivan: Oh my God.

[00:32:58] Vladimir Mićković: I remember that moment very vividly because that was the moment where I realized, Oh my God, that's how big of a role identity plays in food.

It's just uncomfortably big. And this person was enjoying a product and proceeded to say, not for me. Which is just such a weird concept, but to him eating this would mean that he is a different type of person for some reason. So this is what we're working with, right? So it's weird out there. It really is right now.

[00:33:30] Mariann Sullivan: I mean, Something we've talked about a lot, like, I, I mean, I love the Good Food Institute, which, you know, is the not for profit in the U. S., well, they do international work, voting. And, you know, and they say it's all about taste and affordability and availability. I mean, those things are absolutely crucial.

They're absolutely necessary. But I don't think it's all about that. I mean, as you say, I mean, identity, I think, is a really good way of putting that other thing that it's really about. I mean, especially for men, though certainly not only for men, the association with masculinity is important, isn't it?

[00:34:03] Vladimir Mićković: Yeah, it's hard to measure it. Also the social rituals and I mean, all of these things are hard to measure. So usually companies and non profits and these organizations who do statistical analysis, it's already kind of biased towards certain answers because nobody's going to say or even is aware that it's identity.

So you can't even pose a question that perhaps reveals it, or maybe, maybe you can in a really savvy way, but I'm not a fan usually of these statistics. Uh, although, you know, price and affordability and, availability and convenience and all of these things will have a huge impact. And I think identity, you know, in some cases is going to follow convenience, because that's kind of the story that we tell ourselves.

It's something that cannot be rationally hacked through and unlocked. So, culture changes slowly. That's why we have the approach that we have. That's why we don't promote veganism, though we do agree with it, right? Because a lot of people need this step by step.

So I feel like it's very good that there's companies who promote veganism. There's very good that there's organizations, but I think there needs to be a contrast of different voices because there's different receptors of those voices. And if all of us just promote veganism, it's not going to work on the mass scale.

So I believe there need to be different voices and people will come at their tempo to different levels of plant based eating, whatever it is.

[00:35:35] Mariann Sullivan: I mean, even though I'm all about promoting veganism, I mean, like, I'm very into promoting veganism, but I don't see any reason, I hope everybody doesn't get mad at me, why companies should be promoting veganism. Because they're not trying to reach vegans, they're trying to reach people who say things like, that's not for me.

Like, you have to get past that idea that food is for somebody. Like, vegan food is for vegans. Like, that's what people think. People think, they see the word vegan on a package, and they're like, oh, Well, that might be good, but I'm not vegan, so I wouldn't buy that. Like, so for companies that are trying to sell things and trying to sell things to people who definitely aren't vegan, don't think of themselves as vegan, don't think of themselves as wanting to be vegan even, why promote veganism?

I mean, that's not going to work. I don't think any of the companies that are successful or sort of successful are doing that. So I totally agree with you. I don't agree with you that it's okay not to be vegan ever, but that's me.

[00:36:32] Vladimir Mićković: I don't have that stance though. I really don't.

[00:36:34] Mariann Sullivan: You get a little emotional about it.

[00:36:36] Vladimir Mićković: Yeah, it's just about impact for me. I hope we get to a better state percentage wise as soon as possible. And that's kind of it. I hope that I'm a realist in that regard. It's really hard to navigate, but, you know, looking back, it's hard for people to go zero one.

Though there was a moment, remember like 10 years ago? It was like, oh, we're like 10, 15 years away from a vegan society. There was this moment of...

[00:37:04] Mariann Sullivan: I don't remember that.

[00:37:06] Vladimir Mićković: no? Oh, I, I, Oh, I think that was the communication of the early plant based CEOs, but maybe that was just a fundraising tactic.

[00:37:16] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, probably.

[00:37:17] Vladimir Mićković: Definitely it's cultural change that's on a magnitude that it's unimaginable, you know, the food culture we have has been developing for thousands of years into what it is now. It's not going to unravel in 10, 15 years. It's going to take a little time. I still think it would be better that it was faster. So what is the way to have a faster effect, but that isn't necessarily drooped in ideology because people don't like it?

So then what do we do? I know a lot of people are gonna definitely not like Juicy Marbles after hearing my stances, but it's where we are.

I hope there's enough nuanced people out there, but yeah...

[00:37:58] Mariann Sullivan: I mean, well, I can't speak for everybody, but I don't think most even vegan activists think of the job of the companies as to promote veganism. They think of the job of the companies to make really delicious food. And, um, that's the most important thing because that is a key element.

And not, I mean, I just feel very strongly, we don't all have the same role. This is a complex, as you point out, we've been doing this for thousands of years. We're not going to unravel it with one technique. There's not one way forward.

[00:38:27] Vladimir Mićković: Yeah, have you noticed online, I mean, maybe we get this feeling because the most extreme voices seem to have captured the online discourse, but it really makes you feel like people are very polarized but in person, it doesn't seem that way.

So I just wonder if like the weirdest people go online and then, cause I noticed this um, Arnold Schwarzenegger said, it is like a quote, if anybody tells you that you need meat to be strong, tell them they're wrong, or something like that. Maybe I'm misquoting, but that's the sentiment. And then underneath, like, just an army of people, like, he's not even vegan, he's a hypocrite. And I'm like, man, the guy is sending a good message, you know?

[00:39:05] Mariann Sullivan: Jesus! Vlad, don't read the comments. Don't read the comments. Like, haven't you learned that?

[00:39:11] Vladimir Mićković: Rookie mistake. Rookie mistake.

I know, I know. I mean, you know, having run our social media for a long time,I perhaps have drank the Kool Aid a bit too much. It's really toxic.

[00:39:26] Mariann Sullivan: If you embed yourself, in it I mean, most of us you know, aren't on it as much, but I guess it's part of your job to be on it more. I mean, a lot of people have stepped back from it, but it's poison. You know, if you have your view of the world from reading the comments on social media, yeah, you just lose your mind.

But you know, what are you going to do? But you can't assume that's the world. And people behave poorly, even nicer people behave badly on social media.

[00:39:51] Vladimir Mićković: It's like road rage.

[00:39:52] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, it totally is like road rage. I mean, it really is because there's a distance. You know, when you're in your car, there's a distance from those other people. And the same when you're online.

[00:40:02] Vladimir Mićković: You're safe. You can be as profane as you want. It's crazy out there. Yeah. Well, sometimes it's hard to discern. I feel like, you know, you have this bias towards the most recent information that you encounter and I would lie if I would say that everything you read that's kind of negative or paints a negative picture about humanity hurts a little bit.

You know, it just, it takes a jab. Of course you can unravel and rationalize and say, Oh, this is not it. But it just, it always hurts at least a little bit, when you see that aspect of humanity. And yeah, I mean, you have to, as you said, be careful and not spend too much time reading that section.

That's why working in the restaurant was really nice because you just interact with people live and you see that they're way more chill than it seems. People are way more chill and way more susceptible. I was just moving. That's why I'm here in this. little corner, because still don't have internet well connected.

And, I was moved by somebody you would least expect to have vegan tendencies, like just the most Balkan person ever who just, if you look at that person, it's like meat incarnated, like if a lion was a person. And then he asked me at some point during the moving, he said, so what do you do? And I said, you're gonna laugh at me, but, you know, I, I have a company that makes steaks out of plants.

And he was like, what are you talking about laughing at you? I eat this shit all the time. Half a year, I have to fast because of my religion. I'm an expert in this shit. And then he started telling me about all the recipes that he does with vegan meats. I'm like, okay, you know, there's way more chill people out there than one might imagine.

And even in corners and cultures that you would least expect, there's just people are chill. People are generally very chill.

[00:41:54] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, no, but everything we've invented as a way to communicate has made it harder and harder. But just to take a sec, does Slovenia have a large, I mean, that's Orthodox Christianity, right? That has that vegan, half the year you have to fast, which means eat vegan.

Does Slovenia have a large Orthodox Christian population?

[00:42:11] Vladimir Mićković: Well, I mean, Slovenia used to be part of Yugos...

[00:42:13] Mariann Sullivan: yeah, Yugoslavia. I remember Yugoslavia because I'm a hell of a lot

older than you are.

I mean, I don't remember it personally, but you know, I remember when it existed.

[00:42:22] Vladimir Mićković: I was three when Slovenia and all the countries seceded from Yugoslavia. So I don't really have a good memory or like I have zero memory of Yugoslavia. I just feel the nostalgia that is seeped into every texture of every building and everything here. But generally I have no idea. But there is a hefty amount of mixed cultures here which are, you know, Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, and it's all, it's very, I don't know percentages, but there's, there is that, certainly.

[00:42:52] Mariann Sullivan: Okay, so when it was all Yugoslavia, the ethnic groups mixed more, so when you separated the countries, they didn't really split according to ethnic group. There's a lot of overlap.

[00:43:04] Vladimir Mićković: Lot of overlap. Slovenia was the most homogenous country, but a lot of people have fled because basically Slovenia just got like 10 days of war because of that very reason of, of being culturally homogenous. And then Serbia, at the time was just like, all right, you can go, but Croatia and Serbia and Bosnia proceeded to have war for the entire decade.

And it was very, very brutal. So people were fleeing to Slovenia for a better life, so you can, you can kind of see we had that diversity now because of that, which is nice. It's really good for people to be exposed, I think, to different cultures. It just makes everybody way, way, way nicer.

[00:43:42] Mariann Sullivan: Well, I mean, not to say anything nice about my country, which nobody ever says anything nice about, with some reasons, but we do have a mix of cultures. That is one thing we've got.

[00:43:52] Vladimir Mićković: Yeah. It's, it's complicated there, isn't it, right now?

[00:43:57] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, yeah, to say the least. Yeah, we're not getting into, to American politics. No way. No way. But actually, I do need to let you go soon, but I wanted to go back to something that does relate to that, because you mentioned this trip you took across the US, I guess with your wife. Can you just tell me a little bit more about it?

Like, United States does have good food. It's just sometimes hard to find it. But we really do have a variety of food cultures if you look, and it sounded like you might have experienced some of that. Is that right?

[00:44:29] Vladimir Mićković: Yes, so we rented a van here and traveled the Balkans for one month and then were like, okay, this is great. We need our own van. So we, we ordered a van on eBay in Oregon. And she came from New York and I flew from Slovenia. We just met up there and immediately started living in the van.

And so we toured, within the year we toured all the West coast and all the Southern states. So yeah, we got to experience a lot of different foods. In the end, we started avoiding bigger metropolitan areas and were more interested in smaller towns and smaller communities, uh, I, I really love that experience.

So you get to experience all of these different ways of living, which was just, I don't know, it's great. You know, it, it really, really makes you think about stuff.

[00:45:17] Mariann Sullivan: I sort of did a similar trip like that. I was vegan at the time. So, you would think it would have made it hard, but it honestly wasn't. I mean, especially in the South. I mean, the South has such a great food culture. And they're really, really into vegetables. You know, they, they know how to cook and it was fascinating, and not just because of the food. I mean, I agree with you, you go to small towns and it's so easy to miss them all, you can drive across the country just on the interstate and never see anything, but getting off, getting onto those back roads, it, it's really, it's a different world.

[00:45:49] Vladimir Mićković: Yeah. I mean, there were towns that were like, people were telling us crazy shit. Like, like they had like town hostage by bandits 10 years ago, and like, just the wildest possible stories you can imagine. So I, I, it's just.

America I really like culinary wise, but I think the cultural aspect was much more interesting of the trip, because I love listening to different people's lives and just letting them talk and see what they're about, and that's the most interesting part.

I mean, food is great almost anywhere, you know, like, And America is very, very diverse culturally, so I feel like it really has a lot of good food.

So,

[00:46:25] Mariann Sullivan: Well, I've actually got somebody to say something nice about the United States, so that's unusual. Not that I ever say anything nice about it either, but sometimes it does wear down on you, like how everybody hates you.

Um,

[00:46:37] Vladimir Mićković: No, it's great. Um,

I, no, no, no, no, no, no. There's so much good culture and so much good music. You know, coming from Europe, you do come with this notion of, oh, America this, America that. But people are great. People have treated us so nice and, you know, we would be stuck in a ditch.

And 11 in the evening and a car passes by and we don't even honk or stop them. They just came back five minutes later and they were like, Hey, we noticed you folks might be in trouble. You know, like it's just so much, there's so much niceness on the trip that you, at the moment, it makes you just want to cry because people really generally are nice. So I feel like traveling like that, it just shows you the aspect of humanity that maybe doesn't come off on online. You know, it doesn't get through.

[00:47:24] Mariann Sullivan: It definitely doesn't come off in reading the comments on social media.

[00:47:27] Vladimir Mićković: Yeah. So, you know, people get to be a little nihilistic and cynical because of that, but if you go out there and you experience a culture like that, you see that people are generally super nice, super nice.

So like, I have nothing bad to say about the States, you know, in that regard, in regards of people. There's other things, of course, you can be critical of any, yeah, no, yeah, you can be critical about any country's politics, it's just, that's the easy, easy, route, right, so, I feel like it's much harder to look at the positive things, and that's what I hope that we also do, is like, focus on the positives, and hope to unite people. I'm very interested. I'm a slut for unity, you know, I, I really hope that we see the commonality and stop fighting about anything, you know, and food included. Food has also become like a cultural battlefield, not just politics.

And I think we should just be chill.

[00:48:24] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, our food system is so unbelievably bizarre and troubled. It's just hard to talk about it in a way that does create unity, but, you know, I think that's, maybe the food is what creates the unity about, uh, you know, making good food. I mean, that is a huge, huge piece of this puzzle, of getting out of this nightmare that we've created of our world.

Alright, just tell people where they can find Juicy Marbles, how they can order it, and where they can find you online, and they can go on and make nasty comments and make you even sadder.

[00:48:54] Vladimir Mićković: Yes. Well, Juicy Marbles has obviously an Instagram and Facebook. We have a website, juicymarbles. com, for people in the States, that's the easiest way to try our product, and for people in Europe.

[00:49:07] Mariann Sullivan: Where is it available other than in the States? Just in Europe?

[00:49:11] Vladimir Mićković: Yeah, we're very small, so even this is quite a stretch.

But yeah, so definitely UK, we're, I think, most present in retail there. Switzerland, Germany, all of these countries, I don't even know, you know, like, there's a list on our website. You know, I can't list all of the countries, but you know, Europeans have us already in retail.

And I hope US will also follow suit next year, but for now online, check us out.

[00:49:38] Mariann Sullivan: Okay, well, thanks so much for for telling us about it and telling us all this other stuff, uh, a lot going on.

[00:49:44] Vladimir Mićković: Thank you. Thank you very much for listening to me.