Sanctuary for Everybody with Sarah Salluzo and Jonina Turzi

We've heard wonderful things about you and about all that you do, especially the sanctuary. We want to hear about it. So let's just start with the basics about the sanctuary. Like, for people who don't know, which of course I'm seeing that a lot of people do already, but how big is it and where is it?

Tell us a little bit about your life.

[00:00:35] Jonina Turzi: Well, thank you. Thank you for having us. We are huge fans of Our Hen House. We are Lancaster Farm Sanctuary co founders. We are at Lancaster Farm Sanctuary in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. So, perhaps, Lancaster is famous or infamous, really for its animal ag intensive community here.

It's one of the most animal ag intensive regions in the country. We have the largest, quote, livestock auction on the East Coast. We're sort of notorious as a bad place for farmed animals. And so, when Sarah and I traveled to a farm sanctuary ourselves, we, being from Lancaster County, thought to ourselves, like, "wow, our home town needs this." Having been raised around the animal ag intensive community here, we really wanted to bring a sanctuary to this region.

And of course, maybe interestingly, some might know that the first ever animal rescued of a specific farm sanctuary was from right here in Lancaster County. Hilda was the sheep that Gene Bauer and his partner and some other activists had saved from Lancaster stockyards, which is actually just about a mile from where Sarah grew up.

[00:01:48] Sarah Salluzo: Yep, and that, as most of us know, launched the sanctuary movement. Jonina and I always joke that had there been a sanctuary in Lancaster already, we would have been happy to volunteer there, but oddly enough, there was no sanctuary here, so we decided to take this leap of faith and start a sanctuary.

So, I guess we're relatively on the smaller size, as far as sanctuaries go, with about, you know, 20 odd acres here. But we certainly do a ton of work both here at the sanctuary and in our community. So we stay very busy and very active. When we first started in 2017, we had about five acres, and we both were working full time and added that to the mix.

And then a few years in, we kind of stumbled across this larger property and took advantage of that. So now we have more space here, and it's just been amazing. We have lots of tours and events, and we have been amazed by the interest in our community. Pretty much everything we do has sold out.

So it's really been incredible.

[00:03:09] Mariann Sullivan: So who, who besides you, well, actually, I don't know whether you live there, but who besides you lives there, who are the animals? How many of everyone?

[00:03:17] Jonina Turzi: Yeah, we have your usual suspects. We are lucky to have been able to rescue some horses, full size horses, that had been used to pull farm equipment or buggies.

We have ponies as well, who had been used like for children to use. We have cows and sheep and goats. We have an alpaca resident. Ducks, turkeys, chickens, pigs. We have all your usual animals rescued from the food industry, primarily. We try to focus on rescuing animals from those industries.

[00:03:47] Sarah Salluzo: Yeah, and we have around a hundred residents here, many of them are birds. We certainly don't have the space for a hundred large, you know, mammals, but we're a pretty packed house, but we're really mindful, too, of the land, and we keep a buffer around our property for wildlife. We planted about 750 native trees when we first moved in here, too, so lots of birds, and we have milkweed and lots of native plants and so we're kind of doing that whole thing too, trying to preserve. Yeah, preserve the land a bit as well.

Yeah, sanctuary for everybody, hopefully. Yeah.

[00:04:33] Jasmin Singer: Mariann did an interview with The Vegan Land Movement and are you familiar or did you hear that?

[00:04:40] Jonina Turzi: Yes, I did.

[00:04:41] Jasmin Singer: Okay, because it's kind of inspired us in like great big giant ways And it's I mean, I love that you're incorporating that too into what you're doing. I mean, it just makes me feel like if we're all fucked, then at least some of the wildlife have a place to exist.

Maybe not all. I'm being an optimist. But it's something that is like a tangible, actual way to create change that lasts beyond our lives. And that's just so inspiring. I want to hear more about that. But before we get into that, I know that Lancaster County is a hub of animal agriculture, as you mentioned, and you're also home to the largest livestock auction on the East Coast, which is really horrific.

And I, even though it's horrific, I want to hear about what that means, like who gets sold there and how does that work? And how do you interact with that?

[00:05:35] Sarah Salluzo: Yeah, so this place has been here in this community for a long time. I think pretty much everybody knows about it. Sanctuaries and rescues come from states away to come to this place.

I will say that even though it's just down the road, we don't go very often. It has become increasingly difficult to liberate anybody from the auction. And, even though it's so important to bear witness, it also can be really soul destroying to be honest. There was an organization that has done some documenting of the conditions there and made it known what they were doing. And so in response, now there's kind of these mini ag gag laws, you know, at the auction house that you're not allowed to have a camera out, no pictures, no videos. They've put up walls and barricades to kind of hide things away from view.

That said, we'll go a couple times a year and try to rescue anybody that might be downed, or like left behind in a hallway, or a room. But also we often go around holidays just to document and raise awareness. Sometimes if we don't go personally, we'll have a couple of friends that will go, and we'll stay on standby if they see anybody that we may be able to get out of there, and then we'll get over there and get them out.

It is a massive place. Everybody that is being sold from this place is, there are signs up in the auction arena and it says on every sales slip, for slaughter use only. So it's mandated that whoever is being sold from there is to go to slaughter. And it is really hard to wrap your head around looking at thousands of animals crammed into these pens and, as my one friend says, it's the last stop, you know? Yeah, it's, it's hellacious, but it is so important for people to see what's happening there.

The thing that is so surreal is, like, many of your listeners and everyone on this call would go and be so horrified, and yet they're are also bleachers there, and there is a snack bar, and people bring their kids, and they watch the animals being sold, almost like it's entertainment. It's just really hard to, to get your head around what's happening there.

But we have managed to save several lives from that auction. and that is one of many auctions in Lancaster. I mean, there are live animal auctions around here. There are two places that have them every week. So, it is very common. But, yeah, we have had some really amazing success stories too of, of liberating animals from that place.

They've all needed hospitalization and really needed extensive, extensive medical care. And I will say, which many people probably don't realize, is, I think, except for one baby that we rescued, any female that we have rescued from the auction has been pregnant because they are impregnated before they are sold off so that they weigh more because they're often sold by the pound.

So, just things that people, I don't think the average person just doesn't realize or think about.

[00:09:18] Mariann Sullivan: You know, it sounds, I mean, completely horrifying. Absolutely. But it also kind of sounds like old school, like when I think of like Smithfield or whatever, they're not sending any, you know, it's all integrated.

It's all like these huge, huge, huge, huge factory farms, and they go straight to slaughter. And this almost seems like it's, it's the horror... is it because there's a lot of dairy, or small dairy farms, and so there it's not as integrated a system as it is in so much of animal ag?

[00:09:47] Jonina Turzi: Yes, I think. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Lancaster's agribusinesses and culture, but truly there's...

[00:09:54] Mariann Sullivan: Not at all.

[00:09:56] Jonina Turzi: Okay, so you're exactly right. This is a throwback form of farming, which is still very strong here. Lancaster really has both a modernized industrial animal agribusiness booming. There's factory farms all around us, slaughter trucks on the road, you know, slaughter bound trucks every day, but then there's also still such a prevalent and visible, you know, small scale family owned. We have the Amish community is here in great numbers.

And so you'll literally see horse drawn farm equipment. And we rescued a horse, like I said, from that type of abuse. And there could even be horse drawn carriages in the parking lot at this auction that we're talking about. So you still have that sort of antique or, you know, mom and pop, old version of the animal abuse as well.

[00:10:47] Sarah Salluzo: The thing is, you know, and that I'm so glad you asked that because we are so deep in the myth of the humane, regenerative agriculture around here. Small scale, like you said, family farm. And people do not realize that that is where those animals are ending up.

And then they are going on to slaughter. So it is the goats, the spent goats from a ideallic looking, you know...

[00:11:17] Mariann Sullivan: Hipster goat farm.

[00:11:19] Sarah Salluzo: Exactly and that is where all of those animals end up and that is why we love documenting and showing that so that people understand.

[00:11:29] Mariann Sullivan: And I mean, it's like as horrible as it is, it's a lot more possible for you to actually see it, even though it's become harder to get in.

I mean, getting into a Smithfield facility is, I mean, that, they just keep that completely hidden from the public as much as they can. So, it's a fascinating place to be, to be doing the work that you're doing. Let's go back a step and get some personal stories. Sarah, like, how did this all start for you?

[00:11:53] Sarah Salluzo: I mean, as far as activism or?

[00:11:55] Mariann Sullivan: Well, the whole thing, you know, the whole animal thing, like, why are you weird? Uh, why are you vegan? Like, why do you have a sanctuary? The whole trajectory.

[00:12:06] Sarah Salluzo: Yeah, it's been quite the trajectory since I was a young kid and being, you know, weird back then.

Really what happened when I was much younger, in like, middle school, was I saw some slaughterhouse footage and that really did it for me. I...

[00:12:24] Jasmin Singer: How did you see it? I'm sorry to interrupt, but I want to know. Especially, I don't know how old you were, but like, when I was in middle school, there was no internet, so you'd really have to go out of your way.

[00:12:34] Sarah Salluzo: There was no internet, and I've always had this, and more so, like, fun, but I've always been interested in horror films, and so I don't know if you knew of, like, it was called Faces of Death, and it was a movie...

[00:12:47] Jasmin Singer: Oh yeah, Faces of Death! No, I'm kidding, I have no idea.

[00:12:49] Sarah Salluzo: Oh, okay. I mean, it was kind of, you know, it's kind of a well known thing, and you could rent these movies, but they were actually documentary style films, and they were really brutal. I didn't really know what I was getting myself into, and I was at a party, a middle school party, with a bunch of friends, you know, watching this film we shouldn't have been watching, and slaughterhouse footage featured really heavily in it, and...

[00:13:19] Mariann Sullivan: oh, that, you know, that's a whole new story. I have never heard that one before.

[00:13:23] Jasmin Singer: Agreed.

[00:13:23] Mariann Sullivan: Like, uh, when I was in middle school, I went to a party and we watched slaughter footage and my life changed.

[00:13:32] Sarah Salluzo: Yeah, it's true.

[00:13:33] Mariann Sullivan: Sorry, go on, because I've asked a lot of people this question.

[00:13:35] Jasmin Singer: You went to some really fun parties.

[00:13:40] Sarah Salluzo: Yeah, but it was, uh, it really disturbed me. And like you said, this was before internet, before any way to connect to any community or make any sense of any of this. And I actually remember seeing, I had a subscription to Rolling Stone, and PETA was in the back, you know, and you could write to them, and they would mail materials to your house, and getting all these pamphlets and stuff from them, and kind of going on this deep dive.

And I was vegetarian back then. I didn't know anything about veganism. I didn't know that was a thing. And it's been a meandering journey ever since then, but only going vegan more recently, like 10, yeah, I'd say like 10 years ago or so. And that was right when we got together and we were kind of like off to the races, you know, as soon as we met.

We had only been together a few years and we decided to start this sanctuary, but it really feels now kind of like this is how it was all meant to work out for the two of us. So here we are, you know, you can plan your life and then it just takes a total different exit. So, yeah.

[00:14:52] Jasmin Singer: Wow.

[00:14:54] Mariann Sullivan: How about you, Jonina?

[00:14:56] Jonina Turzi: Um, how did I get weird? So I'm from Lancaster, you know, my dad's neighbor when I was growing up, my backyard butted up against a dairy. So it was almost like hidden in plain sight for me that I was surrounded by animal cruelty, but I just didn't see it or understand it either. I sort of just gravitated, and I've heard other guests of yours say this, I just didn't actually like eating animals.

It was something natural for me. I didn't have an ethic around that, until I did. And it was meeting Sarah and watching slaughterhouse footage that things really clicked for me. That's that footage I just couldn't face by myself for some reason. I'm embarrassed now to say, looking back. I wish I would have, but you showed me some footage, and it changed my life, and that's one of the ways I'm weird.

[00:15:43] Sarah Salluzo: It's interesting, though, because Jonina's mom is vegan, and Jonina has talked about how that actually might have like worked against her because she didn't want to, you know, do what her mom was...

[00:15:58] Mariann Sullivan: Exactly. Yeah.

[00:16:00] Jonina Turzi: As a teenager. Now I'm like, Mom, I'm so sorry. Yeah.

[00:16:03] Jasmin Singer: So just to throw things on their head for just a second, you just said that's one of the ways I'm weird.

What's a totally random way that both of you are weird that does not have to have anything to do with this interview?

[00:16:18] Jonina Turzi: Oh, gosh, there's so many. I love like patterns. Like I love thinking about, for example, I don't know if you've ever heard of the Enneagram. I feel like you would love this.

[00:16:28] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, totally.

[00:16:29] Jonina Turzi: I love to break the whole universe into patterns and understand like a theory that unites everything and like all these different ways of seeing the world that like are interconnected and I love patterns.

[00:16:40] Jasmin Singer: Okay, there's this YouTuber that I'm gonna find out the name of like at some point. I'll tell Vicki and she'll tell you.

But there's this YouTuber who like his entire channel is charts and patterns and it's amazing. I learned about the world's religions through it and you're like, I'm an atheist Jew who knows like nothing about anything in this world. And I basically have a doctorate now from this half hour. Anyway, I digress, but go ahead.

Okay. Um, I love you, A. B, continue.

[00:17:08] Jonina Turzi: Yeah, yeah, that's it.

[00:17:10] Jasmin Singer: What about you, Sarah?

[00:17:12] Sarah Salluzo: I mean there are so many ways, but I guess one thing I think about a lot that maybe is more perplexing to other people, but it is my love of horror. Horror films and horror culture and how that intersects actually with veganism.

I know so many people that are into horror stuff that are also vegan, and they're just like the nicest, best people, but I think it's hard for other people to make sense of how those things actually go together. But I love all that stuff, like horror conventions, going to the drive in, you know, the whole thing.

So, yeah, Jonina puts up with, like, all my horror knickknacks and stuff around the house. So it's just...

[00:17:50] Jasmin Singer: You sound so much like Vicki.

[00:17:53] Sarah Salluzo: Yeah, I think that's part of the thing. We, we get along so good.

[00:17:56] Mariann Sullivan: You two are totally weird. It's true.

[00:17:59] Jasmin Singer: I love it. But actually, aside from the weirdness, tell us a little bit about what you were doing for a living before doing this.

[00:18:06] Mariann Sullivan: Actually, Jonina, you still, you still work outside of the sanctuary, right?

[00:18:10] Jonina Turzi: I do. Yeah. I'm a physical therapist, a special type of physical therapist, like a manual PT. So I practice sort of like osteopathic hands on techniques to help people with pain. I love that work so much. And people often say, you know, can you use that with the animals?

Are there any similarities? And it overlaps perfectly, it's actually the same. I always say like anyone with a spine, it's the same techniques, you know, it's the structure, the anatomy that we share with these land animals is identical. So I love being able to use my PT skills to help them recover and, and heal.

[00:18:46] Sarah Salluzo: Yeah, it's been so cool to see, cause who knew, you know, when you pursued your physical therapy degree, you know, that you would be doing this, but it has really come in handy. Yeah. And I worked as a mental health therapist before doing this work, and I worked in inpatient drug and alcohol rehab.

And I loved that. So my caseload was co occurring substance abuse and mental health. So, I miss that. I loved that. But I am here now full time. You know, we talk all the time about how that work has influenced what we're doing, especially our activism because it's all about behavior change, right?

And what works and what inspires people. And so yeah, it's just really lended itself to doing animal activism.

[00:19:44] Mariann Sullivan: That's actually that brings up like I think a question that has been swirling around the past couple of years a lot about behavior change about people who say that going after individuals like trying to change the behavior of individuals, which is really what sanctuaries do, I think. I mean, it's bigger than just talking to one person, but it is not the way to go. We have to go for institutional change. You know, there's billions of people in the world. We can't go one by one. Can you talk a little bit about, like, the role of individual change in this whole process and how sanctuaries play into that?

[00:20:17] Sarah Salluzo: Yeah, for sure. We know that you talk about the importance of the multi pronged approach to this and that is really how we see this too. And the thing is, in general with behavior change, you can't tell people what to do. I mean, they will just immediately dig their heels in. And, so one of the things is just creating a space and creating an opening for people to feel welcome, feel curious, to learn new information.

It's exactly the same with substance abuse recovery. I mean, it's using those same skills. And so, of course it is both things. Why can't we do both things? You know, it's like you don't have to pick one or the other. That kind of binary black and white either or thinking is a big, big problem, I think, in so many social justice movements, but especially in the animal rights movements.

So, sanctuaries are so crucial. I mean, we are providing care to the actual victims of animal agriculture and exploitation. So, there's that. But then the thing that is so beautiful about sanctuaries is we're welcoming people to come here. They're not being forced to come here, so it's this kind of warm market already.

Many of them, we always ask if people are vegan, if they've ever been to a sanctuary before. Many of our visitors are neither, right? They've never been to a sanctuary, they're not vegan, they come here because they're curious, they like animals, and that's like the perfect, I mean, we want everyone to come here, but really that's like the perfect visitor.

And they come here, their guard's relaxed, they're around friendly community members, they're meeting animals and hearing their stories, they get to ask questions in a way where they feel safe, and of course we're also peppering in information, the animal's backstories, information about agriculture standards and things like that.

And I feel like that is just like, it's such a great recipe to let people kind of come to their own conclusions and they may not change there and then. But who's going to come here and meet, you know, one of our pigs, Tiffany, and hear her story, and how she was rescued from a factory farm and then go home and eat a pork hot dog and not at least think about that and be influenced by that. So, yeah, it's, it's so strange how we argue about this stuff, like it has to be one way or another. And Jonina and I always say, of course, it's like people arguing, saying their way isn't right, my way is, and now you should give us your money.

I mean, I think that's like what's, you know, at the root of it all, so.

[00:23:22] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I think, I mean, to some extent, but also, I just think there's been a lot of discussion against, as more and more environmentalists become interested in, you know, food production and realize it's a complete and utter disaster environmentally.

I think that there's a very strong impulse there to think about institutional changes and these big picture changes, which is great, but those are people who, you know, we all know, like there's something weird that keeps people from wanting to be vegan, like, it's really strong. And they actually talk against the idea of personal change, as opposed to institutional change, just so that they don't have to stop eating meat.

I really think that that's an influence. It's such a huge thing for so many people. And I actually think for some reason, for most of us, it wasn't that big. I mean, it might have been big, but it wasn't that big. Like, we just did it for whatever reason. But, I'm sure people come and sometimes do go home and eat a pork hot dog, but you're a step in that change.

And, you know, maybe they eat less. This whole idea that we have to turn everybody vegan right off the bat can like, just cause us to feel like failures all the time. And I just don't think that's fair. Every time you influence anybody, you're accomplishing something, and sanctuaries influence people more than anything.

Any other thoughts on your theories of change? How we're going to pull this off? How are we turning the whole world vegan within the next 10 years?

[00:24:44] Jonina Turzi: Well, something that I've learned from you, Sarah, so jump in and say it better than me anytime, but that again, that openness, that, um, the open window that may or may not be there. We're spending... sometimes I, and maybe others like me, spend my time arguing with people who are actively against the behavior change we need.

And if we do spend more time towards the neutral middle, or towards people who are already contemplating change, again, like those coming to a sanctuary for a tour, and we just share information in a safe and respectful way, there's available interaction there, interface. Those are people already ready for the information, and I love to just argue with people on the far end, and I just live for rising anxieties, and I just, you know, that was something I had to unlearn to be more effective.

I learned that from you.

[00:25:32] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Well, this, that seems like a nice transition into what I was going to ask, which is, I'm curious if the two of you being a queer couple impacts your work? I don't know if you know this, but I'm also queer, just kidding, of course you know that, because I basically introduce myself that way in every room I go into. But tell me about your relationship to your relationship and how that impacts your worldview and the way that you go about running the sanctuary and running your lives.

[00:26:04] Sarah Salluzo: Yeah, I mean of course it impacts everything about our perspective, and our thinking, and functioning, and sometimes it's like, I can't even make sense of teasing that out, because it's so deeply a part of who I am, and how I think about things, and how I see things, and I'm sure the same is true for you.

I will say with the sanctuary, you know, it's been a blessing and a curse. The one really wonderful thing has been, you know, when we started this sanctuary, we started it for so many reasons, but I will say that creating a community space for humans was not one of them. So I wasn't really thinking about how this would impact volunteers or caregivers that we have here.

And so, you know, one example, not too long ago, we had a new volunteer, and this has happened many times, this is just the most recent example, this volunteer came for the first time, and she is an older lesbian from rural Pennsylvania. We have a long driveway, and she was kind of pulling back to the sanctuary, and she said, "I just have to tell you, then I saw the rainbow flag on the barn, and I felt so good, and I felt safe." And she said to me, "I thought, this is a gay place!" And uh, I just thought that was so, so awesome, which is why it's there, of course, and you know, we talked about that as an older, lesbian in rural Pennsylvania, you know, you're carrying around this feeling of being on guard, this expectation that you're not going to be welcome or that you're not going to fit in.

And there's, yeah, there's an anxiety just about showing up somewhere to volunteer. That's why we have that flag there. And so it is so awesome. We have so many queer caregivers here. We have lots of queer volunteers. It's been a great way for people to connect to like minded people in the community and make friends. Everybody, like, hangs out together outside of being here, and none of that is what we had planned. You know, when we started this sanctuary, it just kind of happened that way. And it is just so wonderful. On the flip side, of course, the vegan community is obviously just as bigoted as any other.

[00:28:42] Jasmin Singer: They are still humans, unfortunately.

[00:28:44] Sarah Salluzo: Right. We have been just really saddened and I mean hurt, quite frankly, by how we have been received, if we put up anything, that even... we've, honestly, I don't know if this is the right thing to say, but we have been kind of pushed to a place of just not even showing ourselves together on social media, because we don't want to deal with the comments.

We don't want to have to manage all of that. And, we do still sometimes, but the way people respond to us is, you know, it's the endless comments about, "how dare you make this about you? This should be about the animals. You're not centering the animals." And then, you know, the whole thing about shoving our sexuality in everybody's face and why, you know, that whole thing.

[00:29:42] Jonina Turzi: And we're talking about just like a photo of us holding like a new resident together.

[00:29:46] Sarah Salluzo: Right, right, right, right. Yeah.

[00:29:48] Jasmin Singer: So sorry, that's so shitty.

[00:29:51] Sarah Salluzo: It's so shitty. And yet we see, constantly, in the sanctuary world, you know, heterosexual couples posting pictures together, or, "Look, we just had a baby," or, "look at us, we're getting married," or any of that kind of stuff.

And I will literally read down through the comments, and you don't see one single comment about them not centering the animals, about them shoving, you know, their sexuality in people's faces. And it's just, it is what it is. So, but it does suck. And we also, it was like two months ago in Lancaster, there was going to be a Drag Queen Story Hour thing, and there was a bomb threat, and they had to close the event down, and it was actually really cool that all these businesses in Lancaster posted this graphic, and it said, hate has no home here, and they put really encouraging, like, wonderful messages up, and so we followed suit, and we put something up, and we lost hundreds of dollars of monthly support, we lost hundreds of followers, because we were speaking out about people being threatened, you know, with murder and death for being queer, and it's just, it's just disappointing that that's, like, so much of the vegan, animal rights movement.

[00:31:11] Jonina Turzi: Some. Some in this movement, of course.

[00:31:13] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Well, yeah.

It's made up of humans. Yep. Right. Yeah.

[00:31:18] Jasmin Singer: I just want to quickly say that your flag story reminded me that Mariann and I were recently driving back from the Utica area, which is where we interviewed Matt Perry, not that Matt Perry, but the Matt Perry who runs like a rewilding area.

He's vegan and we were caravanning and Mariann was behind me and we had highways off, as we liked to do, and I pulled over, it was like a random ass town. And I saw a rainbow flag and I was like, we're going there. I didn't even know what it was. Like, and Mariann is like, what are we doing? She parks, we go in and it's like a rock shop.

It has like rocks. Do you remember this Mariann? The guy kept talking.

[00:31:57] Mariann Sullivan: I remember it well. It was unbearable.

[00:31:59] Jasmin Singer: You finally just left. You were like

[00:32:01] Mariann Sullivan: Stupid store where they sell rocks. The guy wasn't even gay. And we're in this stupid store where they sell rocks for like 20 minutes.

[00:32:07] Jasmin Singer: But anyway, okay, I totally digress.

But, yeah, I love the fact that you're out there. I'm sure...

[00:32:14] Mariann Sullivan: it was nice that he had the flag. But yeah,

[00:32:16] Jasmin Singer: I'm sure you're more of a safe place then you even realize, because that person who mentioned that to you is probably one of so many who never mentioned it to you, or who didn't even maybe even take it in.

[00:32:28] Mariann Sullivan: Well, it's a, it's a problem with social media, too. I mean, sometimes you just get the worst of people's nature just comes out and it would be nice to be able to avoid it, but of course you can't because you run a sanctuary. But the other thing I was wondering about with running a sanctuary, can you just talk about, like, there's so many sanctuaries now, there's probably a lot more even than when you started, what is the funding situation?

Where, like, how are sanctuaries funded by and large? And what are some of the challenges? And I know a lot of people in this movement, I don't know whether anybody here, and certainly not me, kind of dreams of doing this one day. And, I'm sure that funding is one of the things that is one of the toughest pieces, even harder than taking care of pigs.

[00:33:07] Jonina Turzi: Well, absolutely. So fundraising for us is very much through social media. So we can't just say, Oh, it's so toxic, get off there. I mean, we are basically, we are 100 percent grassroots, small donor funded. So people that find us on social media, or if we do an interview somewhere, so thank you, and they hear about us, will send small donations.

It tends to be, we wish it was more so regular, like monthly donations are the best. I'm sure you've heard that from other sanctuaries, so you can count on a certain amount of support each month, but unfortunately there's been a drop in that in the last few years from when we started seven plus years ago.

[00:33:48] Sarah Salluzo: This past year, particularly.

[00:33:50] Jonina Turzi: This past year, I'd say for the past two or three years, we've seen a steady drop just in general. And it used to be that we could say, well, at least if there's a new rescue, you can really count on that excitement and enthusiasm for a new animal coming in. And just in this past year, we won't even meet our fundraising goal in those cases, which was unheard of a few years ago. So it is really challenging.

[00:34:12] Sarah Salluzo: And we're not alone in that, you know, we're hearing that from so many sanctuaries.

[00:34:18] Mariann Sullivan: We, I mean, obviously we deal with funding issues too, and I know there's just been a lot of shifting, especially amongst the bigger donors and the grantors and whatever in what they're interested in.

And, I think there's, you know, a failure to recognize how important sanctuaries are. Actually, uh, I, a few years ago, especially with the whole effective altruism thing, there was this big thing about sanctuaries. Sanctuary is a total waste of money. And I think that's softened a lot, but not completely.

That sanctuaries aren't creating change. They're just, you know, it's important to take care of a few animals. But let's face it, we have billions to worry about. But I feel like that has changed. But the sanctuaries kind of have to make a little bit more of an argument of the things that they actually are really doing.

You're not just taking care of animals. You're reaching people.

[00:35:06] Sarah Salluzo: Yeah, absolutely. And we, like we said, you know, and obviously all sanctuaries differ from each other with us, we do a lot of tours and events. We made a mini documentary. We'll talk at libraries and community centers. The documentary we've shown in movie theaters and have people come in and we'll do a Q& A.

One of our founding board members is a really well known vegan cardiologist here in Lancaster, and we would have him come and speak. So we do all kinds of stuff like that. We've done vegan cooking demos. We, for several years ran a big veg fest here in Lancaster. We have a kids pen pal program where the animals write to these little kids and they write back and it's the cutest thing ever.

And so we're so busy because we're not, we're like a little organization. It's like us and some volunteers. But You know, there is so much that we do, and we try really hard to, you know, reach people in a myriad of ways. But that said, I do think, too, what is this liberation movement about at all?

As Jonina says, there is no liberation if there is no sanctuary, and I'm sure a lot of people say that.

[00:36:24] Jonina Turzi: Yeah, I didn't make that up.

[00:36:25] Sarah Salluzo: But I think that's so true. But it is, not getting easier, and I think that is across the board. We are lucky that we never had any giant donors, because I know some funders have funded a lot of sanctuaries, you know, and then they've pulled funding, and they're in trouble now.

So, yeah, it's almost a blessing that we never relied on that, and we've always cobbled this together from small donors.

[00:36:54] Mariann Sullivan: You are so right, like so many organizations have a big donor, and such, I mean, it's people's money, and they can give it where they want, but, you know, at least wind it down or something. Sometimes funders just pull the money and don't even notice what they're doing to, to a sanctuary.

I mean, succession and, and it's not like, you know, if we go out of business, we go to business. If you go to business, all those animals like, need to be taken care of. So it's not, I mean, really planning for succession and for continued funding is really crucial, isn't it?

[00:37:29] Sarah Salluzo: Yeah. Every day, it's like a hustle to figure things out, so, We do, Lancaster has, interestingly, one of the biggest single giving days in the U. S. It's called the Extra Give. It's a community wide giving day, but everybody can participate. It's November 22nd this year, so please follow us on social media and check in that day we have tons of matching donors, throughout the day, so everything's doubled or tripled.

But that one day, it's a lot of small donations from community members, mostly Lancastrians.

[00:38:09] Jasmin Singer: What is your social? You said to follow you on social. Tell us what it is.

[00:38:13] Sarah Salluzo: Yeah, we're, on Instagram and Facebook, at Lancaster Farm Sanctuary. And we do also have a Patreon account, which Jonina runs and has fun with.

I have no idea what she's doing over there. So that's a great way to support us, you know, 10 a month or something like that, and get kind of behind the scenes content, but yeah. But that one big giving day also really helps us.

[00:38:41] Jasmin Singer: That's great. That's really great. Well, there's so many more questions we want to ask you, but we do want to have time for the Q& A with the flock.

Let me just check in with you as sort of the last question here. I, I used to ask people what gives you hope, but I realize in thinking about it that there is a big flaw in that question because sometimes people don't have hope and they have something else. Uh, and I haven't totally molded the question the way I want to ask it yet, but I guess I want to throw it to you anyway, like, if it is hope that you have, then what gives it to you?

If it's not exactly hope, then what is it that propels you forward?

[00:39:23] Jonina Turzi: Yeah, well, another thing I've learned from Sarah, from your background with mental health, is that sometimes, in order for people to change, they need to feel pain, they need to feel discomfort. And I've seen that with my clients, of course, you know, people come for therapy because they have a problem and they want help.

What's been frustrating as an activist is that sometimes, again, we're speaking to people who may not be ready for that, may not be seeking change, but really this is, this is a complex answer, but there's so many things going wrong and so many crises are converging. I really appreciate how you guys bring up the climate crisis and so many other issues converging, that the animals are at the heart of it all.

I mean, I don't know how much longer we can continue to have pain and symptoms from all these other crises and issues. They're spiraling. We are in trouble, humanity is in trouble, and we will not solve any, I don't see a single problem that we can solve effectively without addressing the animal issue. So it's, I don't know if that's hopefulness, but it's certainly how I keep going is that we cannot, we will not be able to continue to avoid them much longer, so we're here for it.

[00:40:35] Jasmin Singer: Wow. That is so beautifully said. And a perfect note to end on, and we couldn't agree with you more, and we're so grateful to both of you, Sarah and Jonina, for all you're doing at Lancaster Farm Sanctuary, and we will link to your sanctuary and your social in our show notes. Please hang on the line so we can do some Q& A magic, but thank you both so much for joining us today on Our Hen House, and for being a Flock member. We are honored.

[00:41:01] Jonina Turzi: Thank you. We love you guys.

[00:41:02] Sarah Salluzo: Thank you.

[00:41:02] Jasmin Singer: We love you too.