Exposing Animal Research: From Lab Worker to Activist with Maddie Krasno

Jasmin Singer: We're super excited to chat with you, especially me, because I haven't gotten to chat with you before. And I know that you've been on the Animal Law Podcast.

Mariann Sullivan: I'm not sure that's entirely fair. I'm excited, too.

Jasmin Singer: OK, she's also excited.

I'm a little more excited, but Mariann is, you know, extremely excited.

Anyway, you have been on the Animal Law Podcast, and I know that you are one of those magical beings that kind of bridges the gap. And so we're excited to have you also here. There might be some people in our audience who haven't heard that interview. So if you don't mind, can you start out just by telling us a little bit about your story and how you ended up working in a lab that held animals?

Maddie Krasno: Yes, so, let's see here, my story. I would say like most kids, I grew up loving animals. And so eventually had arrived at college and was trying to decide what I wanted to do with my life.

I ended up taking a course that was called Animal Behavior, The Primates.

It basically taught you all about the different species. So from gorillas to chimps to prosimians, monkeys. I kind of became, well, reinvigorated by this passion because I had always looked up to Jane Goodall and had this desire to work in primate conservation.

And so, after taking this class, I was really kind of thinking hard about these things because I had initially been avoiding the sciences, I didn't think I was smart enough to take them, and when you want to work with animals, study animals, you have to take a bunch of science courses, like chemistry and physics, which... so.

Jasmin Singer: I'm with you. I was a theater major. Like, I think the best I could do is act like I had any idea what I was doing.

Maddie Krasno: Yes, yes, I mean, I was a little bit of a perfectionist, I wasn't used to like not doing very well in all my classes, so I was like, if I can't do really well, then I probably shouldn't do it at all, which is really not, I think, the right philosophy, but fortunately, I decided against that.

So like, during this course at one point, the professor had actually like, put up on the screen one of his former students working with Jane Goodall, and this just was sort of like, me realizing that the only person stopping me from following what really felt aligned with my goals and my interests was me.

The thing is, is that the professor who taught the course was also the director of one of the primate labs on campus. So I went to school at the University of Wisconsin Madison, and there are two primate labs there that are kind of under the same bubble, but basically like, it's Wisconsin National Primate Research Center as well as Harlow Primate Research center.

And the thing is, is that in that course there really wasn't a lot about actually like testing on animals. It really felt like a course that was sort of just talking about how amazing these animals are in the wild. So, you know, it sounds funny that I went from that to going to work in this lab, but I really felt, um, not prepared for what I was going to be facing.

And the reason that I chose to was because I had this idea that, like, well, if I'm gonna do this, you know, I'm gonna go be like Jane Goodall. If I can get experience right away working with primates, that's going to put me ahead. And, you know, there's, what, 1800 monkeys on campus? So why don't I do that?

So I applied to be a student caretaker, and I was hired and I worked there for two years basically caring for around 500 monkeys in the smaller lab, Harlow Primate Lab.

So that is sort of my journey to the lab itself.

Mariann Sullivan: And I guess we need to complete the story, even though it's a pretty tough story to tell, I know. I don't think you have to go into a lot of detail, as you would for an audience that, you know, is as naive as you were going in. I think our audience is a little bit more familiar with that. What happened to you was bad, but can you just tell us a little bit about the experiences you had there that really led to you not only feeling you had to leave, but changing your whole life and what you were gonna do with it?

Maddie Krasno: Yeah, as I said, you know, I really didn't have an understanding of what it would be like, not just for the animal... I mean, like, you hear about animal research, but you also are very much told, which I was told, you know, what's taking place is important, it's saving lives, human lives, you know, the animals are treated humanely.

So it's not that I necessarily like, believed it, but I also didn't not believe, like I just didn't know enough. And so it really quickly set in when I was there, sort of how depressing the environment was. I didn't work on the research side of things at all. I was a caretaker. My job was to do feeding and health checks and, and give medications, like medications they would need if they were sick, as opposed to like, giving them something that would make them sick. Preparing enrichment, and by enrichment I mean, you know, stuffing a plastic ball with popcorn and cereal, or handing out like, quarter slices of apple, these are some of the things that constituted enrichment, and it's not that these tasks were very complicated, but when you have 500 plus monkeys, it's time consuming.

So us students, we were part time. I did this for like 10 to 12 hours a week, for two years of college. And, I actually didn't leave in the sense that, like, I left because I had an issue with it. I left because my time was up. I was graduating. I stayed because I was still so terrified of authority and felt that I needed a letter of recommendation. That, like, everything I was kind of trying to set out to do wouldn't be possible without that. I also feared leaving the monkeys in someone else's hands.

And this is something that from talking with other people, especially on the animal care side in animal research labs, this seems to be a common experience for caregivers is that, there's guilt of being there. But there's also guilt of like, if I leave does someone who cares less take over for these animals? So it was really quite an uncomfortable situation, to say the least.

Mariann Sullivan: Can you just tell, I mean, not to go into it too deeply, because I don't want people to turn off the podcast because it's too upsetting to listen to. But I thought, I mean, one of your monkeys that I read about a little was Norm.

And I think just telling his story, touching on his story, gives people a taste of exactly what you were going through, and what these animals were going through.

Maddie Krasno: Yeah. Norm's story has really stood out to a lot of people. I mean, I've, whenever, someone has read my op ed, where I think is where a lot of people hear about him, they seem to remember him, and rightfully so. I mean, Norm was a very unique individual, they all are for their own reasons, but so these were rhesus monkeys that I worked with, and Norm was one of the larger males, and he lived alone in one of these barren cages, like many of them.

Some lived in somewhat social housing, they might have, like, another monkey with them, but generally it was either one or two per cage. And he was interesting because he actually sought out human interaction. And rhesis monkeys especially are not, like, they're known to be aggressive, especially in an environment like a research lab where, you know, they are wild animals, they do not like the situation they are in by any means. Your expectation is not to do a whole lot of bonding with these animals, that just doesn't happen. But Norm, actually really sort of wanted interaction with humans.

And so, when I was being trained, one of my co workers had actually shown me when we went into the room where Norm was, and, you know, there were probably, I don't know, 40 other monkeys in that room. And Norm, as soon as we came in, he put his arm up against the mesh of the cage and my coworker, who, like, had all of his garb on, so he has, like, gloves and, you know, face shield, like, we always had to be totally covered, but he is picking at Norm's arm, like basically grooming him through the mesh.

And then after that, he put his own arm, like his jacketed arm, up against the mesh, and Norm groomed him back. Or, you know, did what he could, in terms of grooming.

This was like, there's a whole mixture of feelings. It's kind of heartbreaking to think about, and it honestly when I think about him, my heart's broken because he was such a sort of like, I don't know, it was just nice to see him, you know, and whenever I would then go into that room, we would do the same thing. He would put his arm up, I would groom him, he'd groom me back.

Mariann Sullivan: And I, I think you mentioned that one day he was just gone. I mean, I, I assume that happened with a lot of them, but with Norm, you would really notice it, and you don't really know, or, or you did know what kind of research he had gone into?

Maddie Krasno: Yeah, so he was gone one day, and I should also say too, like, he was known as Norm among, like, the care staff. Like, most of the monkeys did not have names. He somehow did. He also had, like, letters and numbers, it would be, like, AX48 or something. But he had, like, become more individualized than they generally are.

It's really hard to individualize these animals when there's 500 plus of them and you can barely experience their personality. But yeah, one day he was gone, and when I asked about it, they told me that he was put into an alcohol study, where he would be basically allowed unlimited amounts of alcohol. So, he could just...

Mariann Sullivan: Well that's really important because we don't know whether alcohol is bad for people,

Maddie Krasno: Right.

Mariann Sullivan: We don't know a lot about

Maddie Krasno: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: It's hard to find people who would volunteer to like drink.

Maddie Krasno: My thoughts exactly.

Jasmin Singer: Wow. Well, and also I hear you that you went into this somewhat naively and thinking that the research would be doing good. And I think so many of us can relate to that on different levels. I mean, not in that scenario, but just so many good intentions. And then suddenly we're in a place where we're kind of realizing that this doesn't necessarily match our ethics.

But this type of research is, of course, pretty big business, isn't it?

Maddie Krasno: Oh yeah, it brings in, especially at Wisconsin, where research is like the backbone of the university, you know It's bringing in millions and millions of dollars and taxpayer dollars too. You know, a lot of these experiments, are NIH funded, so, you know, there's definitely reasons why it keeps going. Even despite, you know, the actual success of these experiments, or like, what they are coming out with, which is rarely anything.

Mariann Sullivan: I think it's so important to remember that we're paying for this. This is our project and we pay for it. And what would you say that you learned about human nature from this episode in your life? I found it interesting you talking about your other coworker, and other coworkers, not just one, who would interact with Norm, and then would also not have the trouble that you had with doing the rest of it. And it just, I mean, I think it's a microcosm of people and animals, what we pay attention to and what we don't.

Maddie Krasno: Yeah, what's interesting about the environment is, they are definitely not trying to encourage us to talk to each other about our feelings, if we're even having any feelings, let alone to talk to higher ups, because we know that like if we express issues that are too strong when it comes to how the animals are being treated, you get labeled an animal activist.

And I was not an animal activist at that point. I was not even vegan, vegetarian. I did end up going vegetarian during this experience, but I still didn't make the connection yet. I mean, I was very much like the animal lover who doesn't really understand what is going on in the world of animal exploitation.

So that being said, I don't necessarily know how each of my co workers were feeling.. I found out actually, not that long ago, a few years ago, that one of my coworkers was really struggling, and struggling in a similar way to me. And after seeing me speak out on social media, ended up reaching out and actually writing a blog post that is now up on social media.

It was originally published with Rise for Animals, but she describes like, how difficult it was for her to be working in the lab. And we overlapped, but we never knew that the other was feeling any of this, because you just know not to talk about it, unfortunately. Which, you know, we'll, I know we'll get to, but it's sort of, again, where this organization, Justify, that I've created comes into play, because we're trying to combat what is taking place in these labs, which is really suppressing our humanity in some ways.

Jasmin Singer: I guess this sort of sets the scene for what comes next, right?

Because what is justify?

Maddie Krasno: Yeah, so, Justify started out like this community mindset of trying to have this place for people who had worked in the animal research industry to have somewhere they could talk to individuals who wouldn't immediately judge them and understood kind of what it was like to be in that space.

It came about because me and the other two co founders had all worked in labs and when we started talking to each other, we really realized how helpful it was for each of us to have each other to talk through these experiences. Eventually, well, relatively recently, honestly, we decided that Justify was going to become a non profit organization.

And so now, we're really trying to build, to be this sort of entity that becomes more well known so that people who may already be in labs, or people who might be considering going in labs, they come across people like us, who have been in the industry, and are questioning it, are wanting to push us towards non animal methods, in terms of research. Just so there's basically this perspective out there that has historically not been highlighted.

These individuals all exist who have worked in the industry, but there hasn't been this sort of consolidated place where we can be having these conversations. And we really are the only organization that is made up of people from the industry who have had this experience and then are advocating to move away from animal research.

Jasmin Singer: Mm hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: I assume this is pretty delicate business for these people to contact you, for the conversations you have to have with them, because I assume that obviously if they're reaching out to you, they're troubled, but they're not all at the verge of leaving their jobs or leaving their careers, so they're in that, in between space.

So how do you handle this with both honesty and compassion and, obviously much needed privacy?

Maddie Krasno: Yeah, I should say like, because we are really just in the building phase, we've definitely been contacted by a number of individuals. Less of them at this time that I've like directly been in contact with are individuals who are still in the industry.

Most of them have been individuals who left a while ago, or have very recently left. There have been a couple who were, like, involved at the time that they contacted me, and actually are since not involved. You know, the thing about the conversations is, they can be really difficult, right?

I mean, I'm learning things about this industry that I didn't know. Because again, I worked with primates, and working with primates is also very different than working with mice. The way mice are treated, the way individuals, it is so normalized to just be sacrificing, and I say that in quotes, because that is the word the industry uses, but in reality, it's like, students are just taught okay, now go kill these mice, and the way that they are taught to kill these mice, it really blows my mind, and it also hurts my heart that these individuals who are telling me this, like, I can tell that there is a part of them that has been, you know, destroyed by this.

And this industry has normalized it so much that you feel like this outsider if you start to question it. Especially, like, from the inside. They like to say that there's all these pathways you can take if you're having issues, you know, go here, whatever. But in reality, it's in the best interest of this industry to keep status quo and keep this up. And so it ends up leaving people pretty sort of like, you know, I either got to further desensitize myself if I want to get from point A to point B, which like point A to point B could be like, I really want to be a doctor.

And along that route, I'm being told I need to do X, Y, Z. It might be three months, but those three months, you know...

And so I guess like, I'm learning so much about how interconnected this industry is in so many different fields, too, and why it's been so hard to move away from it for so long.

Jasmin Singer: Do you think that you and others suffer from PTSD?

Maddie Krasno: Oh yeah, absolutely. I was diagnosed with PTSD, and I know several of the others who have contacted or are involved with Justify one way or another have been diagnosed with PTSD. It seems to be very common, and I would guess that there's many who go undiagnosed, right?

Cause it's just like, it's not even viewed as trauma. Like, like, this work is not even viewed as inherently traumatic when it absolutely should be. You know, like, the job description itself, especially in animal care, you might think, what is the difference between this and, like, you know, like, a zoo, right?

Like, when it comes to animal care, it's just like this different level of trauma, but it's not, it is not obvious

Mariann Sullivan: You know another point that I think was made to us by somebody talking about veterinary education that occurred to me when you were talking about is that so many talented, intelligent people are weeded out of these sciences because they can't, they can't do this.

Maddie Krasno: Absolutely.

Mariann Sullivan: We're losing all of like these people who otherwise might be making incredible discoveries and doing extraordinary work because of the brutality that you have to participate in.

Maddie Krasno: Absolutely. To me it's such a huge issue that is very much connected to this broader issue of animal experimentation because we are selectively losing the most compassionate people because they're being told this is the way you have to do things.

Mariann Sullivan: I think that really starts in high school even. When you have to dissect, I mean, you know, how many people take a second year of advanced biology or whatever, or refuse to take it just because they don't want to do that.

Maddie Krasno: Yeah. I mean, it's very much taught. I mean, they even have courses in grad school that are literally meant to introduce students to animal research, like, to what these kind of basics of animal research to get them ready to be in an animal lab.

And so it's just so much more, like a part of academia and stuff and these other professions than I think broader society realizes.

Mariann Sullivan: So do you think one of the reasons it's so hard to get attention for these things and that it's so hidden, as you found out when you first went into it really very naively, not understanding what was happening is that... I mean, this is just a broader question about animals and society I think it that it, it's just too awful to think about because people actually really care about animals. Like people just don't want to think about this. They don't want to know it.

Maddie Krasno: I think that's part of it, and I do honestly think that there's still a lot of people who believe what the industry puts out there. The reality is, is animal experimentation has resulted in things that have, you know, radically changed human life, right?

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, it's ridiculous to contend that that's not true.

Maddie Krasno: Yeah, and so they do have that to point to. Now, does that mean we continue doing whatever we want with these animals? Does that justify it? No. But we have to be honest with ourselves that, like, it's not like going up against a circus, right? Where it's like, this is all about entertainment, this is all about money. They can't like say this is for some like greater good, right?

The language that the industry puts out is still so hard, I think, for people to think critically about, especially because they'll just be like, well, you know, like polio or whatever. They keep pointing to what has happened in the past.

Not that, that negates everything, but I think it's just people's gut reaction to animal research is, oh, I don't want animals hurt, but then very quickly they're also like, but what would we do instead? Which I think is interesting, because like, obviously, non animal methods are a great instead, but also, there shouldn't need to be an instead, if what we're doing is morally unacceptable.

Mariann Sullivan: Like, what would we do instead of slavery? Well, you know, we'll work it out.

I often wonder, like, if we were a totally different species and in the very beginning, and of course, there was a very strong anti vivisection movement like in the 19th century and whatever.

But if, at that point ,society had somehow said, no, we shouldn't do it this way, it's not like we wouldn't have science or we wouldn't have medical care. We would have gone in a different direction. Maybe we should think about what that direction would have been. And maybe there would be some interesting ideas there.

Jasmin Singer: It's just like farming when people say you're trying to shut down farms. Well, actually, I mean, I still want to eat. You know, I'm not taking people out of business. We just have to think differently.

Can you talk about animal methods bias?

Maddie Krasno: Yeah, so this was another, you know, and like to explain that, from my perspective, I am continuing to learn, throughout all of this, because again, my experience came from the care side of things, and so as I've kind of gotten deeper into this industry, I am learning, and one of the things that I have discovered, which now, oh, this makes a lot of sense, is that there is, like, true bias in publishing where publishers want to publish research that uses animals.

And I think it was, like, the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, their CoLab group, which I highly recommend people look into, but it's basically this collaboration of different organizations looking into how this bias takes place that is also helping to encourage animal research, like Publish or Perish.

So like, the Publish or Perish is you keep doing research and then you publish, you get money, so you keep doing research, and if you don't publish, then you're not gonna get money. And if you're not doing animal research, you might have an even harder time getting published.

So then that's why it's encouraging people who might not even want to be doing animal research to do animal research. This is just one of the many sort of like gears in the system that is keeping things going with this industry, even when it's not in our best interest. The industry is like to improve human health, right? And so, regardless of that, there's all of this that's keeping it going.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, so many situations like that.

Can you tell us a little bit about, I know we, we talked about this on the Animal Law Podcast, but things were still very much in the middle of things then. Can you tell us a little bit about the lawsuits?

I mean, not in the depth, obviously, that we went into at that time, but just so people are familiar with what happened here because it's so crazy.

Maddie Krasno: Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, I mean, again, part of this industry is like, the secrecy, the trying to sort of control the narrative, and so, after leaving the lab, I had decided I'm gonna start speaking out. This took some years, but when I started to speak out, this was usually through social media, and as I kind of mentioned before, it's helped to welcome individuals who have been in the industry to my life.

Like, they've reached out and said, like, you know, what you're saying has really resonated with me. It makes me feel less alone. And so, as I was doing this, I was also starting to call out my alma mater, UW Madison, on the continued use of animals in their labs. This did not go well with them. They started censoring me personally, and they admitted to this in the lawsuit, and then they also were using a blocked word list.

Mariann Sullivan: Like, these are just for your comments on social media posts, right?

Maddie Krasno: Yeah, yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: Talk about paranoid. And they have good reason to be paranoid, as you point out. They don't want people to be talking to each other. This proves it so clearly. I'm sorry, go

Maddie Krasno: Yeah,

No, you're good. I mean, it's they literally showed me that like, what I was doing, even though it felt like it was just me in that moment, was enough to get them to take action. And then I'm like, oh, I guess I should keep going.

So, like, this might actually be beneficial. So, when we discovered this whole blocked word list thing, what that meant is that it wasn't just me who was actually being censored technically, because the blocked word list, they were made up of words almost entirely related to animal research. And so anyone, like if it was one of you that went to Wisconsin's page and typed a comment that said primate, and primate was on the blocked word list, you would see your comment and Wisconsin would see your comment, but the public would never see it.

Jasmin Singer: Wow.

Mariann Sullivan: Just because it had the word primate in

Maddie Krasno: Right? Whatever the word

Mariann Sullivan: You could be saying, I love primates. and it would just automatically get deleted.

Maddie Krasno: I love, I love primate research, and it would have been hidden, because they, I mean, you have to imagine that that's how many people had issues with what was going on, and so they chose these words based on that, and so we added that to the lawsuit.

And after that, me and my friend Ryan, who was the one who was doing these FOIA requests to find out the blocked word lists, we started looking at other universities, just cause we were curious, and found out that other universities had blocked word lists made up of, you know, these animal research terms, and then we looked at the NIH.

And that was pretty mind blowing, because it's like, you know, I mentioned earlier, the NIH, they're the ones who fund most of the animal testing taking place. And for them to be censoring discussion about literally what they are doing with taxpayer money was pretty egregious. And so that led to the second lawsuit, me and my friend Ryan were plaintiffs on that, a similar free speech lawsuit, PETA also joined in, and with that lawsuit, you know, well, with both of these lawsuits, we were initially in lower courts ruled against, which was frustrating.

And then at the same time, it's like, with how powerful this industry is, it's like, is it that surprising? But what's surprising is like, the case seems so cut and dry, in terms of why are you allowed to do this when it's taxpayer dollars? You know, you are censoring.

Mariann Sullivan: And first amendment applies.

Maddie Krasno: Yeah.

So, both cases were appealed, and we ended up winning the NIH lawsuit. They reversed the decision. The court definitely, like, slapped NIH on the wrist, so to speak. I mean, what they were saying, they basically told them, like, you are being ridiculous.

This is beyond common sense, the way that you are currently monitoring discussion on your page when you are literally behind animal research. So, that was amazing. Very exciting. And, Wisconsin, We're still waiting.

Jasmin Singer: Wow.

Maddie Krasno: It is still, it's been very quiet on their end, so I don't know. I mean, we were thinking that once we got the NIH ruling that that would sort of help that decision come along from Wisconsin.

But I don't know it's been like five months now or something. .

Jasmin Singer: Wow.

Mariann Sullivan: Well, having worked at a court, I would say like, maybe it was all written and ready to go and then that ruling came out and they're like, oh.

Jasmin Singer: Oh, I like that. I like

Mariann Sullivan: rewrite this.

Jasmin Singer: I like that spin on it. What are the three R's and why are they failing?

Maddie Krasno: The three R's, um Three R's are interesting. Okay, so the three R's are reduce, refine and replace.

So, the three R's are interesting, again, as I come to learn about them, because what I'm hearing quite a bit is that they're almost sort of, in some way, and it might be mostly like this country, I should say, like, I think it depends on where we're talking about. Some countries are actually using the three R's in the ways they're supposed to.

Here in the United States, it seems like more of a propaganda y thing, where it's like, it sounds really good, we're putting this out there, like, if you have concern about how many animals are being used or whatever, like, don't worry, we have the three R's. We're only using them when we absolutely have to. That kind of thing.

And then I was actually told by someone who worked in the industry for decades that, like, the researchers on top don't even know what the three R's are. It doesn't even cross their mind. And so it seems like, again, something where, like, the public and people who are sort of, like, lower down in the lab environment, it helps them feel better about what's taking place.

That is what I've been hearing, which I just, find, you know, fascinating and also not surprising, because it's like, when you think about what happened with Norm, for example, like, it's like, really? Alcohol research? We're really doing that? You know, this might have been a decade ago, but they're still, they're still doing alcohol research on animals, which is, absolutely baffling to me.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, and a million other completely baffling

Maddie Krasno: Yeah. Mm hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: could not possibly be justified. I just read this article recently, I can't remember what it was, so that's not very helpful, but there's been some suggestion of the likelihood that the Trump administration will roll back some of the funding for animal research.

I don't have a lot of faith that anything good is going to come out of, you know, like, I don't think they really care about a lot of this stuff. Do you anticipate that that actually might happen?

Maddie Krasno: Yeah, I have been seeing some people say that too, like, if there's any area of, like, animal protection that might quote unquote benefit from the Trump administration, people are saying it would be animal research because of the taxpayer dollars and the fact that we truly do waste a lot of money with very little to show for it.

And so, while I can see that kind of being a thing, it's also hard to think, like, if he's super close with Elon Musk and, like, what Elon has done with these monkeys and Neuralink and stuff, you know, so it's like, I don't know. I don't see anything drastic happening.

Mariann Sullivan: We're at the point where there's a lot of talk, but there's a lot of lobbyists who have not yet come to bear with their opinions about what should really happen. So in a lot of different areas. Um, it's very hard to tell what actually is going to happen. But you know, I, I'm all for Silver Linings.

Maddie Krasno: I know. Yeah. I mean, it's like, it doesn't make me excited about what's taking place, at all, you know, but if people can see some of the waste of resources that's taking place, great. I mean, what I would really like to see and have people like, think deeply about is not just wasting money on animal research, but also this whole, research to like, further human health, right?

Well, what if we took some of this money and helped people actually have access to healthcare, health insurance, medication, things that already exist that they still cannot access, cannot afford? Like, why are we still doing this to these animals when funds could literally change human lives today? That to me is infuriating,

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, there's a lot of medicine we already know. And we know what to do when we're not doing it.

Maddie Krasno: And yeah, and

Mariann Sullivan: we should start

Maddie Krasno: people can't, yeah, like people can't afford it. So it's like, we could help you, but we're not. And, you know.

Mariann Sullivan: That's such a good point.

Jasmin Singer: Is there anything, Maddie, before we go that we haven't asked you that you wanted to make sure to chat about because this is all so fascinating, and I know we have to go soon, because we've kept you for a long time, but I just want to make sure we're dotting our I's here.

Maddie Krasno: yeah. I mean, I guess, the one thing I will just, like, circle back to is, Justify this organization that I co founded with a couple others who came from the industry as well, or had been a part of the industry. This organization, I think has the potential I believe, truly has the potential to bring some systemic change.

You know, I think that we have never really had a number of voices from the industry together in one place, where we are hearing, you know, story after story of what it's actually like to be in these labs. And that's a hard thing for the industry to come up against, as you can imagine, like, you know, what are they going to do, point to all of us and tell us we're all wrong, when they all operate in the same way?

So, I'm hopeful about what's happening. I am hopeful because I've had people, you know, like, one individual found me through my Washington Post feature, was questioning what was taking place during their PhD program, contacted me, and some just like find me other ways through social media posts, things like that.

One person was connected to me by a friend who found the organization. This person that I ended up talking to had worked in the industry for two decades. And I think these are a lot of individuals who would not necessarily

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Maddie Krasno: start talking in the first place, because if you don't have a place where you're going to be, like, not judged, and sort of, like, allowed to think critically about what was taking place, and the trauma you experienced, then you're likely to just sort of, you know, keep it inside.

I mean, that's what I was doing for a long time, until I read John Gluck's book, which is Voracious Science and Vulnerable Animals.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

And John has been on the podcast. Amazing interview. Yeah.

Maddie Krasno: Yeah. He's on our board.

Mariann Sullivan: Incredibly important work, yeah.

So how do you see Justify becoming able to become more public when it is almost inherently private?

Maddie Krasno: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a good question. We're still sorting out a lot of things in terms of like, how it is we're supporting workers. I mean right now a lot of what's been going on is just like one on one

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, of

Maddie Krasno: Um, but there are individuals who are ready and willing to speak. Whether it's just like speak out in general, to speak with reporters, even if it's anonymous or not.

I actually had one individual, who found me several years ago, I had made a post on Instagram that, you know, I understandably got under, I don't know, It made some animal rights activists really upset because I think we have this tendency to want to demonize individuals instead of look at like sort of the system that's taking place.

And so I had made a post that was talking about how Demonizing animal lab workers does not liberate animals. So this post, you know, got a lot of attention. And actually, this post happened to reach this individual who had worked in a primate lab, who ended up contacting me, said they had a lot to deal with, had been questioning a bunch of stuff.

Over the years we've been talking, just recently this individual joined me in giving a presentation to a Lewis and Clark law class about Justify and about, like, their experience. So this was the first time they publicly spoke about their experience.

And, I mean, I think that's a great example of just like helping to empower people to share their stories.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, It's a it's such a difficult issue. Pete Paxton was on recently talking about animal auctions, livestock auctions, and he was saying the same thing about, the need to not see these people as the villains, even though people are responsible for their own behavior, you know, there is you know, you can't just let people completely off the hook.

I mean, and now I'm talking I'm not trying to put words in Pete's mouth. I'm talking for myself. So there's that balance there. And you know, people are understandably angry when they hear these things at the same time.

Maddie Krasno: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: people can change. And our goal is to change them not to vilify them.

Maddie Krasno: Right?

Yeah. I mean, if we really don't believe that people can change and do better, then what is the point? You know? We can't rescue our way out of this problem, so if we don't believe that humans have the ability to do better, then, yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: I was also just, uh, it just popped into my head, we did an interview years ago, are you familiar with Karol Orzechowski's movie?

Maximum Tolerated Dose. Yeah, that was a long time ago. I mean, it was a movie. It wasn't a whole project the way you're doing, but it was kind of on the same theme. Like, there are people doing this work who...,

Maddie Krasno: I was actually just emailing them. Um, that, that movie is also one of the things that inspired Justify.

And they had, I had never spoken to them, and then they had reached out when they like, learned about Justify, and were like, here, you should check out this movie. And I was like, oh my gosh, I've seen this movie!

Like, this was one of the

Mariann Sullivan: The amazing movie.

Maddie Krasno: at the end, I was like, I want to reach out to people, like, I want people to talk to, but there like, wasn't anything? And that was like, you know, this was again, planting the seed of Justify. So it had a huge impact on me.

Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

That's so great. Yeah, what an incredible movie. And you're doing such incredible work. What's next for Justify and how can people find out more about it?

Maddie Krasno: Right now we're really like, just kind of building into, like, things that are not super interesting in some ways, like, working on website, working on social media. Really trying to get the word out there, because, you know, it just needs to be more of like a known name, and that helps people find us.

So, you know, I just appreciate people who are willing to like, share about the organization in general. I've actually got a live talk coming up January 13th, if anyone who's interested, they can check me out on there, reach out. But yeah, you can find us on really any of the social media platforms.

We are when we justify, so it's like @whenwejustify. And then, you can also find me, Madeline Krasno, on any of the platforms as well. Feel free to reach out. I am always looking for people who are wanting to help, just wanting to hear about what's going on.

Jasmin Singer: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for all that you're doing and for chatting with us today on Our Hen House. We so appreciate it.

And I know you're going to stick around for our bonus content segment with the Flock. But for now, I bid you adieu and I say thank you and please come back again.

Maddie Krasno: Thank you so much for having me.