The Hen Report: “It’s the only thing that makes any sense” – A conversation about animals, truth, and hope

Jasmin Singer: and this week is our Hen Report, which means there's no guest, just us. And Mariann, I'm so happy that you're here because if you weren't, it would be just me and...

Mariann Sullivan: That would be a very minimal session, I have to admit. No guests, no me.

Jasmin Singer: No,

Mariann Sullivan: You'd do great though.

Jasmin Singer: Oh, thanks. I would start singing or something slightly off key.

Mariann Sullivan: No, you did the top of the show last week all by yourself 'cause I was sick and you did great. We got compliments about it.

Jasmin Singer: Well that's very kind. How are you feeling?

Mariann Sullivan: You know, I feel better than I did, but astoundingly, even though I'm well more than a week in, uh, I don't feel great.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I know you have a bad cough, but our listeners will be spared from that because Vicki will edit out your horrendous coughing.

Mariann Sullivan: Vicki should just walk around with me everywhere and, uh, edit me. Oh, somebody should do that. Life would be so much better. I would be so much smarter.

I feel I uncomfortable complaining because, let's face it as, as problems go, having the flu is not as big a problem as most people have. But at the same time, you know...

Jasmin Singer: It was bad. It was really bad. You had it.

Mariann Sullivan: I haven't had something like that in a very long time.

Jasmin Singer: No, it was terrible. It was very concerning, but

Mariann Sullivan: It does remind you. I mean, I feel so Pollyanna-ish saying this sort of thing, but

Jasmin Singer: I thought you said polyamorous. I was like, that's

Mariann Sullivan: That would, that would really be a stretch right now. Holy shit.

Jasmin Singer: A whole different podcast.

Mariann Sullivan: Anyway, just if you know anybody in your life who's sick, and let's face it, for most people, it's not something that's gonna go away in a week to 10 days. For many people that have things so much worse than this. And it is so easy to forget how bad it is to be sick. So, so be kind to somebody in my memory.

Jasmin Singer: Oh my God.

Mariann Sullivan: Don't make me laugh.

Jasmin Singer: Well, it has been quite a week. You know, I was going through a animal emergency,

Mariann Sullivan: I know compared to Stanley, I wasn't even sick at all. Stanley was the real victim of the week.

Jasmin Singer: Stanley is one of my two kitty cats and he ate, he decided to be a cat, you know, that's what they do. And, and he got into some yarn and he ate three and a half feet of it and it was a giant emergency and he had to have emergency surgery in the middle of the night. And he's fine now, he's in recovery, but it

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, it was touch and go.

I mean, this was not just like, okay, we cut him open, we got the yarn out, and now he's fine.

Jasmin Singer: No, it, he, he had a bad reaction. I don't even totally understand what happened, but he had to stay in the hospital and he had a low heart rate and low blood pressure, and he is young. And it was, honestly, I'm not gonna get into details about some of this other stuff, but I was at two different animal emergency rooms over the last week, and one of them, I saw things and I heard things that I just wish I could erase from my mind. Like people in the depths of despair and animals in horrible emergencies and just...

Mariann Sullivan: Also the, that was the one you were at that was basically wasn't a fancy pants hospital. It was the one here in Rochester. It was not fancy pants. It was.

Uh, it's in a rough neighborhood with people who didn't have a lot of means, and yet everything costs more than you can even begin to imagine.

Jasmin Singer: It was something I would like to forget quickly, but, animals are just such an important part of so many people's lives across the board, whether you're a person experiencing houselessness or you're, like Upper Crust professor who I saw a couple of those in the room. One, one whose dog was high on pot and it was actually funny 'cause the dog is fine.

Like, but the guy was like, we don't have pot in the house. And the tech was like, well you should maybe contact your, you know, teenage son. And it, it kept unfolding

Mariann Sullivan: I shouldn't laugh.

Jasmin Singer: It was like a sitcom. I mean, only 'cause the dog was fine. Like the vet was like, he'll probably get the munchies later.

I know all this because all the conversations happened right in front of me because it was a very small facility with like no privacy. So, the conversations that are usually private, were very much not private. So, anyway, moving on, Stanley is home. He has...

Mariann Sullivan: he, has a cute little surgery suit.

Jasmin Singer: He's stabilized. Yeah. Well, he hated the cone

Mariann Sullivan: saw one of those

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

A friend of mine who's a a vet was like, get him a surgery suit, which is basically a onesie, instead.

Mariann Sullivan: And you don't have to wear a cone if you're wearing a surgery suit?

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. 'cause it,

Mariann Sullivan: it keeps you from...

Jasmin Singer: His incision is on his tummy, so he can't get his tummy.

Yeah. It's just,

Mariann Sullivan: Never heard of that. That's a really good idea. He looks adorable.

Jasmin Singer: God. Like the cute, do you think I could always have him in a onesie '

Mariann Sullivan: cause he's, he is a little chunky. There's no denying

it. He's just built like that. He's not really that. He is, he is

like I, I, I'm not

Jasmin Singer: He has

Mariann Sullivan: than he should be. He is just big. Yeah, he is. he's a sturdy, sturdy little cat.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Okay. Well, let's talk about your article because it finally came out and I've been excited to chat about it. This was in the Cornell Law Review, and this is called Desperate Times and Desperate Measures: When is Rescuing Animals Necessary? Tell us about this.

Mariann Sullivan: Well, it's kind of like a huge big deal in my life. I'm not gonna deny it. I wish I was in a little perkier mood to be able to talk about it 'cause I've been waiting and waiting for it to come out. 'Cause you know, I, I was invited to write an article for the Cornell Law Review, which is, it's kind of a big deal in your law world.

The whole issue is in memory of Sherry Colb, the wonderful Sherry Colb who died a couple years ago and taught at Cornell and. So I decided to write about just one of my favorite topics going on in animal law. And that is what happens when undercover investigators go into facilities and rescue animals who would otherwise die, and how can that be against the law?

How can that be theft if the animals were going to die anyway? And you know, I've always focused on this, as have other people, uh, of this defense in the law, a necessity defense, which isn't clearly in the law in every state. So of course it's more complicated than one imagines it's going to be. But the basic principle is, is that if you do something that is necessary in order to avoid a greater harm than whatever you've done, even if it would've been illegal anyway, is no longer illegal. It's a defense. It's like, it's just like self-defense only it's broader. It's not just a matter of defending yourself against somebody shooting you or harming you.

It's doing something else that is necessary to prevent this greater harm than is committed by the fact that what you're doing would be a crime, like stealing an animal. Only, it's not stealing an animal because you're doing it to save the animal's life. This is a defense in the law and it seems to fit so clearly within what, you know, direct action everywhere and other rescuers do,

Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: And yet, It means in order to figure out whether it really applies, what you have to do is commit what would otherwise be a crime, wait until you're prosecuted, take the risk of going to prison, and try it out that way. It's a really hard way to test the law, but that's what some of these rescuers are doing, and I loved writing it.

Well, I hated writing it because it's writing, but I loved writing it because the topic is so interesting and I'm really excited that it's out there.

Jasmin Singer: It is really good. I've read it a couple times and it's very accessible to the non-lawyer. It's really fascinating too. I hope that this circulates around. I really do. And as always, the content that you produce that is animal law related is somehow presented in a, like I said, a very accessible way, and your new Animal Law Podcast is no exception to that.

So that also came up this week. Wow. You really know how to stay home sick, don't you?

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, well, I don't know how I managed to do that interview, and I, I'm sure, I'm sure it sounded like an idiot for part of it, but Vicki, it was Vicki. Vicki made it all happen. She rescheduled the interview. She put it all together. She got the whole episode together on absolutely short notice, and I loved the interview.

Well, I loved my guest, Edie Bowles, of Advocates for Animals, which is a UK based public law firm, obviously representing animal interests, and public interest law firm. It was just a terrific interview. I just wish I, I hope I didn't sound like a total idiot, but you know, when you're sick you can't even remember what you did. Anyway, what it's about is this case, which you may have heard of, which happened in the Uk and it was brought by the Humane League, the UK division of the Humane League, having to do with chicken breeding. And, you know, the Franken chickens, these enormously oversized chickens that are bred for meat all around the world.

But there's a regulation in the uk, which seems to prohibit doing things to animals' genetics that will harm them. But of course, as in all animal law, it's not just a matter of there being a law, it's a matter of the law getting enforced. And even though it doesn't look like they won this case, I mean, nothing directly happened as a result of them taking this case.

And, the way the court wrote the decision made it pretty clear that the way they're breeding chickens in the UK is illegal. I mean, it's hard to imagine how, if you know anything about the actual facts and of course they can do some follow up litigation in the uk and that's one of the things we talked about.

What are the next steps to try to see that this very principled decision on the part of the court actually might go into play and, you know, if they change things in England, this isn't the whole UK, it's in England. But of course it would, you know, then be applied throughout and then it might be applied throughout the world because once you have a precedent like that, you can really work with it. Anyway, fascinating, fascinating case. I loved her. I love the interview.

I hated me.

Jasmin Singer: Well we will link to all of this on our show notes, of course. So you pointed me to this article that came out very recently and it, it was in the Cognitive Research Journal and

Mariann Sullivan: I wasn't actually reading that journal. I did come across this on social media.

I thought it was really an interesting point for animal advocates, even though it wasn't directly about that.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. It's about the illusory... am I saying that word right? Illusory truth effect, which is, you know, more or less, a psychological phenomenon where people are more likely to believe information that they have heard repeatedly, even if it's false. And that happens because repetition makes information easier to process mentally.

And apparently our brains tend to associate fluency with truth. And so this is how people unconsciously use repetition as a shortcut to determine truthfulness.

Mariann Sullivan: Scary right? I mean, it explain a lot

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: everybody believes things that aren't true. And I'm sure including us though we're usually right about

Jasmin Singer: I mean, IU.

Mariann Sullivan: but it like, it expl like humans are so deeply flawed.

Jasmin Singer: I know I've told this story before without getting into like what it was, as a reporter, I was covering a protest, it wasn't animal related. Half of the people who were for it were on this side of the pavement, like a blacktop. And the people who were against it were on the other side.

And I was interviewing folks on one side and I said, why do you care so much about this? And they said, because we care about the children. Then I crossed the pavement and I interviewed them and I said, why do you care about this so much? And they said, because we care about the children. And I was thinking, we're screwed.

I mean, if everyone is concerned about the children and that's the basic concern and there's no opening for conversation here, then what's gonna happen? And from a vegan animal rights

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I, yeah, I think that's like one of the big problems is that it's not that people are motivated to do bad things, they're just wrong. And one of the reasons they're wrong about things is because apparently if you hear something 20 times, you're 20 times more. Well, maybe. Maybe it doesn't translate that exactly, but you're much, much more likely to believe it than if you hear it once.

No matter how much more sensible the once is, if you hear it a lot, you think it's true.

Jasmin Singer: Right. Like humans

Mariann Sullivan: It is. It is a point to be made to activists though, and our belief that we shouldn't pound away at people saying what we think and what we believe because you know, we'll piss them off. Apparently, yeah, pound away at it.

Say it every day. Drive them crazy.

Jasmin Singer: I mean, right. 'cause repetition can work for the animal rights movement, the same psychological effect, reinforcing those false beliefs can be used to harness the vegan truth. The you know, the, the meat and dairy industry literally banks on the illusory

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, they spend a lot of money saying it over and over and over,

Jasmin Singer: Happy cows make better milk. Like they, they have repeatedly

Mariann Sullivan: Repeatedly.

Jasmin Singer: labels.

Mariann Sullivan: Repeatedly, repeatedly

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Cage free grass fed. You made bullshit like. That's what it is, right? Humane bullshit. and the more someone hears that or sees it on the billboard, the more they believe it. And so how can we make that work in our favor? I think that we just have to be consistent in our activism and that, that to

Mariann Sullivan: Relentless.

Jasmin Singer: Relentless.

Mariann Sullivan: Even when people don't wanna hear it, we have to tell 'em anyway.

I'm

Jasmin Singer: good at being relentless or so I've heard.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. But you're not good at telling people what they don't want to hear.

Jasmin Singer: Oh my god, you know. Okay, so I'm in this play and it opens on March 14th. If you're in the Rochester area, come see it. You can find links to the tickets on my link tree on my Instagram. Jasminsingerauthor.

Mariann Sullivan: Feel like we got off on a tangent here.

Jasmin Singer: No, I'm back. Okay. So my character, her name is Phyllis and she is a 45-year-old lesbian, as am I.

And yet Phyllis is much more confrontational than I am, but is like deeply rooted in her feminism and her belief system. And she like in a lot of ways were similar. She's stuck in 2007, which is when the play was

Mariann Sullivan: Well that happens to characters in

Jasmin Singer: yeah, so

Mariann Sullivan: of get a little stuck in their ways.

Jasmin Singer: Right. Like there are a few things where I'm like, Ooh, why does she think that?

And it's because she didn't yet realize that, for example, a burlesque show can actually be incredibly feminist, not anti-feminist as she thinks. That's just one example. But, I wish I could be more like her and I pull that from my characters whenever I can. I pull that, like I want to have fewer fucks to give.

I want to be able to speak my mind. And so anyway, we have to eat in the play. The actors. It's me and three other actors. And this one kid, he's not a kid, he's a young man who's in the show, said something about the Blintz, we have to eat blin.

Mariann Sullivan: Yum.

Jasmin Singer: And and he said.

Mariann Sullivan: I've ever had a vegan blintz. I now have a new goal in life.

Jasmin Singer: Perfect. I'm glad that I can add to your fulfillment on this planet.

So he was like, could they be regular? And the director was like, what? Could they be regular, like not vegan, regular. And like I, I let things go constantly. I mean, we all do in order to exist in the world, right? We all let this kind of shit go or we

Mariann Sullivan: Though, apparently we shouldn't. We should just be repeating over and over and over but yes, of course we do. We do need to survive in the real world.

Jasmin Singer: This for some reason, I think it has to do with the fact that there had been all these microaggressions that I talked about on the podcast in the last few weeks, like people making kind of these weird vegan comments here and there. There was something about this comment, which wasn't that bad. It was just stupid, but like it really pissed me off. And so I said something like, it's not a matter of regular or not, and I've been vegan for longer than you've been alive, honey, or something like that. Which is funny because there's actually a line in the play where I'm called Honey and I say, did you just call me honey? And then I turn to this kid and I said that to him.

And then someone, another actor said, we weren't trying to be offensive to you. And again, I looked like the idiot here and I kind, I just overreacted really, but

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, from their point of view, and it's always their point of view that, they just think that veganism is what you want for you.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: They, they cannot process or won't process the idea that you think it's wrong. And, it goes beyond like your personal preference. So they're just thinking like, well, why would she possibly be mad?

He's not saying she has to eat the dairy ones. Uh,

They can't even understand why that would bother you.

Jasmin Singer: So I pulled him aside later and I was like, listen, I wanted to apologize for kind of going off the rails there for a second. I've just, uh, and he goes, no, it's fine. I just don't like the taste of vegan or gluten-free food. And I said I could

Mariann Sullivan: That's broad.

Jasmin Singer: I said I could care less about gluten-free.

I only care about food not having a mother. And I'm sorry that I was a little curt, but I've been watching bad videos all day. 'cause I for some reason had seen a bunch of videos. I realized I didn't clarify. He probably just thought I was watching like bad YouTube videos. No, not porn. He probably thought I was watching like, unpopular YouTube influencers making poorly lit videos when I meant I was watching animal cruelty.

I dunno why I didn't say that. I dunno why

Mariann Sullivan: All right. I So you didn't like, it's fine. Like none of us ever say every single thing we wish we had said.

Jasmin Singer: But it's just, I don't know. Do you think it's related to the illusory truth effect? Do you feel like this is an example of that, that like vegan food is irregular and everything

Mariann Sullivan: I get, I mean, I think kind of in the sense that everything is probably related to it. People always say that vegan food is bad, so he just thinks that vegan food is bad. There's that and the idea that he thinks he doesn't eat vegan food. I mean, unlike gluten-free food, which is specifically, that's something that's specifically changed in order to be gluten-free.

Like you wouldn't call an orange, a gluten-free orange, it's just like a special food that people think doesn't taste as good. But to say that you never eat vegan food is ridiculous.

Jasmin Singer: Know, it's funny, I'm drinking a seltzer right now and it's just like a regular can of seltzer that I got at the grocery store and it's, there's three labels on the side. Gluten-free. Lactose-free. Vegan. Well, thanks. I'm glad

Mariann Sullivan: God. Yeah.

Jasmin Singer: that this is gluten-free and vegan.

Just make sure he doesn't drink that

Yeah, I won't, I'll make sure he doesn't have this seltzer. Oh, and by the way, I was in a text thread with one of the actors like a couple days later, and we were talking about how we're similar and different from our characters and she asked, who is more feminist, me or Phyllis, my character?

Jasmin Singer: And I was answering in a couple different ways and I said, it depends on your view of feminism and this and that. And all I wanted to say was, I consider food a feminist issue and that's why I don't eat food from the reproductive capacities of female animals or exploited male animals.

And, and I see all of that as a feminist issue obviously, but I just didn't feel like saying it. And I

Mariann Sullivan: Now that would've been a good one. I think that one would've been better than the first one.

I guess you just have to choose your

Jasmin Singer: Maybe I'll, maybe I'll do it.

Mariann Sullivan: Well just remember that article that said that the more you say it, the more they believe it and they don't even know it's happening. And even if they hate you, they'll suddenly turn vegan and they won't even know it was your fault.

Jasmin Singer: That's true.

Mariann Sullivan: Like magic.

Jasmin Singer: Exactly. All right, so maybe I'll follow up with her. I will let you know. Okay. If I do. Alright, so let's move on. Maybe this would convince them to go vegan because everyone respects a Michelin star restaurant.

Mariann Sullivan: Nice intro. You know, I feel kind of ridiculous reporting on this this week because all of the news that we hear about and even the news that we report about is so dire, and I just feel like, well. This is the kind of news that we used to get excited about, but the world is too dark nowadays.

But who cares? I mean, yay. This is so cool that this vegan restaurant won a Michelin star in a UK first, unfortunately not in a US first. Unfortunately not in a Rochester, New York, Western New York first, but, but yay. Uh, it's called Plates and it's the first vegan restaurant to be awarded a star in the uk.

And I've never been to a Michelin Star restaurant, but I assume that means it's damn good.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. I mean, the night's still young, right?

Mariann Sullivan: Well, I don't think it's that young and neither am I, boy, I've never felt older. This would be worth like, well, it wouldn't be worth getting on a plane for, because let's face it, that's like the kiss of death these days.

But, uh,

I mean it's, so, really, it's the kind of story that we've always loved and I just don't wanna lose our ability to, to be excited by all the amazing vegan food and how it keeps getting better and better.

Jasmin Singer: And if this

Mariann Sullivan: it's just about impossible to get, um, a reservation, but you know,

Jasmin Singer: Well, if this restaurant serves fake meat, then maybe some meat eaters will go finally understanding that it is in fact better for them than animal derived meat. Because, you know, for the longest time there's just been a really bad wrap on fake meat, and I think it's starting to change . The, uh, the New York Times came out with an article called, is Fake Meat Better for You than Real

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I was gonna add something before we moved on

Jasmin Singer: Oh,

Mariann Sullivan: Stars. I was just going to mention that we haven't yet been to 11 Madison Park.

Jasmin Singer: Well, we went to the place above

Mariann Sullivan: We went to the place above it, which was good, but we haven't yet been to the restaurant, so, so, we don't have to go to London and I think that has three stars.

Jasmin Singer: Okay. Well,

Mariann Sullivan: just don't have that kind of money.

Jasmin Singer: No, it's like the fanciest restaurant in New York City. It just happens to be fully vegan. I did enjoy going to the bar above

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, the bar above it was nice. it was nice.

Jasmin Singer: I didn't like

Mariann Sullivan: It was crowded. I, I don't mean that it was full of people. I mean, the chairs were a little too small. It just felt a little like, like you were crammed in there. The service was like silly.

Jasmin Singer: Like everyone gets their own personal

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Like If you move somebody dives to like, make sure your coat is in the right place, or like, if you walk down the hall, there are 12 people guiding you where the ladies room is.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Well, I,

Mariann Sullivan: but it was lovely. And yeah, the drinks were good. The, Hor d uvs were,

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, we had a gift certificate and it, my friends gave me a gift certificate for that place, for my birthday, and they knew we were going to the city and they contacted you to say, would you be okay going here with Jazz when you go to the city? And so you had to go and pay. I went and I spent my gift certificate.

so, um, thanks.

Mariann Sullivan: Well, I got to eat too.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I know, but you wouldn't have chosen to go to a place like that.

Mariann Sullivan: I like to go someplace fancy once in a

Jasmin Singer: have some really nice outfits and I was thinking, like, I don't ever dress up anymore. I have this

Mariann Sullivan: I know. is that because we moved to Rochester, which is not a dressy place, I

have to say? Or is it because, is it a post pandemic thing?

I feel like people don't dress as much as they used to.

Jasmin Singer: I don't know, but like, I have this gorgeous coat that Moore made me a few, like several years. I mean, it's like Elizabethan and, I got it tailored recently to fit me now, and it's magnificent. And I was like, I can't

Mariann Sullivan: where the hell would you

Jasmin Singer: No, I, I can't. I have no idea. I think I

Mariann Sullivan: There are nice restaurants in Rochester. There just aren't really any really fancy restaurants that are vegan

Jasmin Singer: but I feel like I should just wear it to like the seven 11 and walk around.

Mariann Sullivan: You'll, you'll get held up or something.

Jasmin Singer: That's true.

Mariann Sullivan: too fancy.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. I don't know what to do with it. Alright.

Mariann Sullivan: even like there are people, like if we go to the symphony, they have a lovely symphony here with a very old, beautiful symphony hall.

You can go to the ballet. Like there are always a few people who dress up, which I think is sweet. Most people wear jeans and then there are a few people who like make the effort,

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Like old dandy.

Mariann Sullivan: But I would feel, I would feel kind of dopey though.

Jasmin Singer: And also I'm like, why do I have this tight thing on?

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. No. Especially if you're gonna sit and listen

Jasmin Singer: where are my overalls? Like why did I dress up?

Mariann Sullivan: Well, yeah, you've become one of them, haven't you?

Jasmin Singer: Oh my God, absolutely. Listen, I am leaning in to my recliner slash practical middle-aged

Mariann Sullivan: People, the recliner issue is serious. I think.

Please everybody write to Jasmin and say, get outta that recliner, because she never moves out of it. She's the Archie Bunker of

Jasmin Singer: I will wait until Moore comes downstairs to get me like a a gluten-free vegan, lactose-free seltzer from the refrigerator because I can't get up. And it's partly because you have to close it yourself with your legs. Like there's not a button

and

Mariann Sullivan: Oh my God. The

Jasmin Singer: You need like ab strength to do it.

And I

Mariann Sullivan: The brutality.

Jasmin Singer: ab strength, but

Mariann Sullivan: No, it's a serious problem, and there are usually like four dogs sitting in there with you.

Jasmin Singer: Oh, on me, absolutely. No, they love it too. They love it too. And there's a heated blanket, like I have a heated blanket on it, so there's heated

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, this is, this is sad.

Jasmin Singer: stays on for eight hours. Then I have like a dog blanket over that. Right? So it's always warm and cushy. Ugh. It's just lovely. Let's move on because I'm getting embarrassed.

So, as I was starting to say before, the New York Times has this article about fake meat, and I don't usually say fake meat. I usually say vegan meat, but the headline says, is fake meat better for you than real meat? I also don't say real meat. I say animal derived meat. It was a pretty generous article.

I mean, it wasn't perfect, but it certainly came out on the side of. Yes, it's better for you. Fake meat is better for you. It's, it's even better for you still if you like, make your diet, plant rich, plant forward. But, this doctor that they interviewed for the story said that fake meat products can be a helpful stepping stone to a more plant forward diet.

And we know that, but it's nice to see it in the New York Times, especially when this shit is usually ignored.

Mariann Sullivan: Well, it's nice to see it. I agree. But don't you think it's a little late in the day now that they have done their level best to put out all of these like totally industry, sponsored bullshit about, how it's ultra processed and that means it's gonna kill you and it's terrible for you. And it's awful.

And it's like they've just done their best to destroy these companies. And now they're like, oh, here's what we do and don't know. Well, you always knew this, like, it's it's better for you than meat.

It's not a health food by and large. And it even goes into the whole ultra processed question, that ultraprocessed kind of doesn't mean anything

Whatever ultraprocessed means, like which they defined and all of a sudden was in this like unbelievably important place in the lexicon Like there are ultra processed foods that are bad for you. It doesn't mean anything.

Well, I guess it means something. It's a place to start. If a food is ultra processed, maybe you wanna take a closer look at it or something, but it doesn't mean it's bad for you.

Jasmin Singer: Right.

Mariann Sullivan: Like I just think it's annoying that. After all of this time when there have been all of these bad articles and all of this bad news and nothing to counter it and Beyond Meat and Impossible have been suffering so much because of it then that they're like, oh yeah, well, you know, it's, it's really not that bad for you.

It's fine.

Jasmin Singer: You know what that reminds me of?

Mariann Sullivan: Annoying.

Jasmin Singer: That reminds me of when I came out, when I was 19, I came out as bi, and then in my twenties realized I was a lesbian, which is not to erase bisexuality.

Like there were certain people in my family, I won't say who, but there were certain people in my family who were very unaccepting.

And I was an impressionable sensitive teenager. It was really hard and really awful. And now those people in my family like go to pride parades wearing rainbow.

And it's like, yeah, I'm 45. I can handle whatever now. But it's sort of the same thing, like when you say a a day late in a dollar short, like it's, you know,

I could have

Mariann Sullivan: Well, I think this is even worse 'cause it's not, I mean, your family members were wrong, but they were just wrong. The New York Times and other media outlets should have known better.

They were just following the party line.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. By the way, I saw on the Today Show, I feel like I put down the Today Show a lot on the podcast, but that's 'cause Moore,

Mariann Sullivan: I feel like you talk about it every single week because you're, you're 90.

Jasmin Singer: It's just like on, it's part of the morning kind of noise. And there was a story about foods to help people who have type two diabetes.

And so I, you know, I kind of started paying attention and the first thing was avocados. And I was like, yes, this is gonna be like vegan friendly. And then all of the next things were animal products. And I was like, are you, are you

Mariann Sullivan: it's unbelievable. It really is.

Jasmin Singer: yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: like, how do they not know that those foods are bad for people with diabetes?

How do they not know that?

Jasmin Singer: It's really unethical. I mean, it really is. but something that's incredibly ethical is

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, we're getting a segue. I can feel it coming.

Jasmin Singer: is that Dunkin Donuts, which is actually called Dunkin now, there's no donuts. It's just Dunkin has dropped its surcharge on non-dairy milks. And what my question is, is can we retroactively implement that? Go back to 2020, the height of the pandemic where our big exciting thing that we did

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, and it was,

Jasmin Singer: was, cause we were in a pod, was drive down the street to the drive through, Dunkin Donuts and get like an almond milk latte.

'Cause I think they only had almond milk at the time. And it was like the most exciting part of our day, our week, whatever. We got some other friends into that too. Uh, but I want to have all of those surcharges back. I would be able to like go to that restaurant in New York City, the 11 Madison, with all of the surcharges.

It is another one Mariann, where it's like a day late and a dollar short.

Mariann Sullivan: Well, it's so weird. Like all of a sudden it just happened. Like they all just fell and, and dropped the surcharge when we've been asking them to do that for like years and years and years, and it's great news. But I, yeah, I mean, it's not too late because obviously it's better that now than never.

It just, I just wonder what it is that that happened that they all just said, oh, okay. Like we hadn't been asking for 15 years.

Duncan, of course, is a big one because American food is disgusting, and that's like our big coffee cellar. But

Jasmin Singer: Well, but when Starbucks did it, it's sort of like at that point everyone kind of has to do

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, that must be It

Jasmin Singer: Because otherwise it's like you are going to legit lose service.

Mariann Sullivan: have, um, vegan donuts yet

Jasmin Singer: Not yet, but the night's still young.

Mariann Sullivan: Your favorite expression.

Jasmin Singer: Really, I was thinking of getting it tattooed, but you know what? Saying, I actually really wanna get tattooed. I am not kidding. You know that Taylor Swift song? The famous one that the line is like, it's me. I'm the problem, it's me. I wanna get tattooed. It's them, they're the problem. It's them.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I like it.

Jasmin Singer: I was thinking of getting it just like on the top of my thigh facing

Mariann Sullivan: it's you? You're the problem. It's you. That would be a little hostile, I guess.

Jasmin Singer: Well, I wanna just get it so that I can see it like I like the top of my thigh or something. I don't know. That's, what I was... when I was a kid, my mom used to say to me, 'cause I would be complaining

Mariann Sullivan: Really '

Jasmin Singer: cause I'm I'm me and.

Mariann Sullivan: that's hard to believe.

Jasmin Singer: And she would say everyone's off step, but you, that was like the saying, she would say to me and I was like, yeah, I know.

Like, and flash forward decades later and I'm like, yeah, she was right. Everyone's off step but me. Alright. We have to move to the uk, but since we're not gonna fly there, we'll just take a sailboat or something because, I have my poodle, my little rescue poodle, Murray on my lap right now. Did you see?

He's here.

Mariann Sullivan: I do. Hi Murray.

Jasmin Singer: Hi auntie. And, he wants to go because dog treats from lab grown meat are now hitting the UK market. He's so excited.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I mean that's the story really. It's on NPR and that's not happening. Is it happening here? Like, I'm not aware of, of

Jasmin Singer: No, all I know is about the cat. You know, the cat mouse meat that's been promised to us for a really long time, and every now and then it bubbles up in the news. But my cats have still not part took,

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. It hasn't hit the,

Jasmin Singer: they, they're too busy

eating

Mariann Sullivan: um, this product is not a mouse. It's chick bites.

And they're cells taken from chicken eggs. Also, it's a mix with plant-based. but yeah, I, I would love this stuff to become available here. The company is Meatly, so maybe, you know, they'll go international.

Jasmin Singer: So they're made out of cells from chicken eggs?

Mariann Sullivan: Well, that's what the article says.

Why not? Dogs would like that.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I guess I wonder if there's any kind of a bird flu like tie in there just because eggs are so verboten right now.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I, I don't think the situation is as bad in the UK as it is here, but, I don't know how, I mean, that's obviously if people are gonna eat eggs, that would be the way to do it. Things are going from bad to worse, but fortunately because there'll be less money spent at the USDA, on keeping an eye on what's going on, we won't know about it.

So it'll be fine. As long as we don't know about it,

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: nobody gets hurt. Right. All right. One article, I'm not going to go into the details of this article, but it's a great article. It's on Nautilus. It's by our friend Brandon Keim, who was on the podcast not too long ago. Absolutely magnificent interview if you, if you missed it.

And he wrote this great article. It's pretty long read The Unnatural History of Bird Flu. The subtitle, and this is basically the point he's making. H five n one is a human creation. You know this, this story that this like is something that happened in wild birds and we just got unlucky because all of these chickens, that is really a completely fake shorthand story of what happened here. And so, you know, he's talking about how unbelievably bad this is, how unbelievably bad it could be.

That basically if we sat down to design a way to kill everybody with the flu, we probably would've done exactly this.

Jasmin Singer: Well, I mean, this just seems like the right moment for everyone to start using vegan eggs. Like I just don't understand why that's not the obvious next step here. I, I have another Today Show story.

Mariann Sullivan: I, I find the discourse on it to be unbelievable in the first place. They're kind of beginning to actually mention bird flu as opposed to just that eggs are really expensive for reasons that, you know, are mysterious, they occasionally mention it, but it is as if Like, no matter who it is, it's as if not having eggs in your life is tantamount to death. Like, what could we possibly, what are we gonna do? Oh my God. Oh, you can't afford eggs. Oh my God. Somebody made the huge point the other day that they're up to $8 a dozen. Like, that's so cheap anyway. Like it's a lot of food for $8.

Jasmin Singer: Well, not only that, but like I was overhearing a conversation about the cost and they were like, inflation wise, it actually, the number that it is now sort of makes sense. But anyway, I digress. it seems so obvious. I mean, I'm flummoxed. I'm truly gobsmacked.

Mariann Sullivan: By what?

Jasmin Singer: By the fact that like people aren't like, oh, okay, so I can't eat eggs.

So like I'll get some vegan eggs

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. or I won't eat it. Like have people always acted as if eggs were like the basic food stuff that you cannot live without?

Jasmin Singer: I did when I was vegetarian. That

Mariann Sullivan: gu, I guess, I guess.

Jasmin Singer: But let me tell you that another Today Show story, they were doing a story on like places that are temporarily or purportedly temporarily, you know, increasing prices on some of their baked items because of the eggs. And they, highlighted, like a small business in Harlem and this woman's known for this particular type of cake she makes, and she uses like 27 yolks in It,

Mariann Sullivan: Oh my God.

Like just the yolks?

Jasmin Singer: Just the yolks and she's trying to hold out and not increase the prices she's showing, like baking all

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, because this is so important to the welfare of New Yorkers,

like they should get a cake that has 37 yolks

Jasmin Singer: I'm literally like, yeah, we've, figured this out lady. Like we know how to bake a goddamn, like even my brother, my meat eating brother who lives in Kansas knows that vegan baked goods are amazing.

Mariann Sullivan: I know. Even my sister, who as you know, can be pretty brain dead, like even she said, well, yeah, the, vegan desserts, you definitely have that all sewn up.

Jasmin Singer: So like, why aren't we doing the Just Egg or whatever, you know, I'm, I can hear some of you like next level vegans who are listening to this saying or a flax egg or apple sauce or whatever. I don't care, but like.

Mariann Sullivan: whatever.

Jasmin Singer: It just the Just Egg just seems like

Mariann Sullivan: idea that this is like this, this unbelievably necessary food and, and the crisis of the C, have they looked around at actual crises?

Jasmin Singer: I know,

Although,

Mariann Sullivan: them. Eggs being expensive. More expensive than they used to be. It ain't one of them.

Jasmin Singer: But also that's not the story.

Like the, there is a desperate, horrible story in there, but we're all focusing on that. And so we're missing the forest for the trees. We're missing the cruelty for the, for the cost. Let's talk about Kenny Torella's story in Vox. This is like the weekly Kenny Terella update.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, well, I, you know, I just threw this in there because I just thought it was such a typical response. So Nevada is doing this, but other states are as well. So their response to, egg shortages, quote unquote shortages, is to suspend, you know, they, they recently put in new cage free standards, and so they're gonna suspend them.

That's where we're going. Going back to battery cages, that's the solution.

That is the solution to bird flu.

Jasmin Singer: The Vegconomist agrees

Mariann Sullivan: What would we do without Kenny Terella on? Honestly, like his reporting is outstanding.

These, these stories just wouldn't get reported if it wasn't for Vox.

Jasmin Singer: I know Yeah. No, there are a, a handful of people who are just changing the game when it comes to media. Sentient Media is doing such a bang up job too. But Vegconomist too has some really great stories that come out.

And this one is about Just Egg being America's most reliable egg, of course, I agree with that. This is exciting because Just Egg, according to this article has grown five times faster in this past month compared to last year.

Mariann Sullivan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I just hope that people will try it because if you try Just Egg, you're gonna like it. I mean, if you like eggs, like it tastes just like eggs, I'm

pretty sure.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: I guess there is like a, you know, the hope that, now that the price is probably better for Just Egg, or at least equivalent that if people try it, they will realize that oh yeah, we don't actually have to eat eggs.

I, I heard that story 'cause this story of course has been going on for months and months and months and months. But on NPRA while back, I think I told you about it, that, there was one reporter on who was vegan and another reporter on who was talking about the egg shortage. And he was talking, well, you should try, you Just Egg, it's good.

And what is it made out of? Mung beans. And he laughed like it was the funniest thing he had ever heard. Like, it was just hilarious that they had mung beans in them.

Jasmin Singer: Oh my

Mariann Sullivan: You know, God. forbid you should try it.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: But it would be kind of exciting, an exciting moment for Just Egg if this really like put them in a new category of, success because people try it.

I mean, people try it. I think they'll like it.

Jasmin Singer: You know what's so cute? PETA posted to their Instagram stories, a Just Egg coupon for a dollar off. And I shared the story and I got a message like from my mom that was like, thank you so much for posting that coupon. I just printed it out 'cause I buy this all the time. It was like, okay, well PETA's campaign worked on

Mariann Sullivan: She's so thrifty.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Alright, let's

Mariann Sullivan: She's also vegan.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, exactly.

Mariann Sullivan: it was not really activism,

Jasmin Singer: No, but at least,

Mariann Sullivan: But you saved your mom a dollar.

Jasmin Singer: saved my mom a dollar. And she's a flock member, so there you go.

I loved this that, just switching gears here to fish, our sea life friends. There's this new study that came out saying that wild fish can recognize different divers.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Don't you wish you, have you ever Dove. Have you ever diven what is the word? I can't.

Jasmin Singer: Divine. I am divine. Thank

Mariann Sullivan: I haven't either. And I guess, you know that ain't gonna happen now, but you never know. You never know. The night is not still young as far as I'm concerned, but still things could happen.

Jasmin Singer: I'm not, it would make me feel really claustrophobic. I

Mariann Sullivan: But I like, don't you think this is the coolest thing, like divers go to the same areas and, individual fish recognize them after a while and they've actually figured out, they use particular visual cues to tell one from another. I think it's the coolest. I love this study.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, it's really

Mariann Sullivan: And you know, it's not like, because the article starts off by saying, many animal species have been shown to discriminate between individual humans in captive settings. I mean, in a captive setting, the animals are so incentivized to figure out what's going on in their environment. Here it's just they're being like, friendly.

Hey, how you doing today?

Jasmin Singer: What's up, Jonathan? All right. So there's another animal related study that came out, but this one's, sad. I mean, it's cool in a way, but it's really sad, which is about how lab mice give first aid to their unconscious buddies.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. I don't know. It starts off by talking about this scientist who has anesthetized a lot of mice and then realize that they're cage mates or whatever were trying to revive them.

Like, what does this tell you about mice and what does this tell you about scientists?

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, exactly. I know that we have rising anxieties to get to still, which I know it was very missed last week, so I'm glad that you have it back, but I, I wanna like not end on that note. So let's talk. I don't know, how's the crisis of fascism going? I'm just kidding. What can we say that's positive?

Is there anything you're looking forward to?

Mariann Sullivan: Well, I mean, this isn't about the crisis of fascism, though. I don't think I'm looking forward to that. I feel like we're in the midst of it. I mean, we can't even, we cannot start talking about real news. I mean, not that what we talk about isn't real, but you know, it's specifically focused on our topic area.

And I sometimes do wonder whether, like, are we just fiddling while Rome burns? Like, with what's going on in the world, like just ignoring it. I don't want people to think that, well, I am ignoring it to the extent I'm able to, I'm just not able to very much. But yeah, we're living in times of unbelievable crisis and holding onto the animals at that moment. Is it fiddling while Rome burns, or is it the only thing to hold onto? I mean, I, sometimes I feel like, maybe I'm being ridiculous, but I just think it's the only thing. If people don't wake up to animals and to the real world and to the wild world and to the world as it actually is, instead of the way it is in people's crazy fucking heads, we're not gonna be able to pull this off. And it's the only thing that people agree on. I mean, not that everybody agrees, but that really, really a lot of people agree on. It's the only thing that can wake us up and I can't say I think it's going to, but it's what I hold on to.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I hold onto that too, and it does embolden me when I hear, you know, the folks who we get to interview each week. It does give me purpose and focus and even when I'm angry or even when I'm feeling alienated at rehearsal or whatever, I like feel the Our Hen House community, I feel the broader animal protection community.

I feel the passion that we all have.

Mariann Sullivan: I just feel the fact that we're right,

That there is some kind of hope in the world.

I mean, there's something about it that's like a religion, and I don't mean that. I mean I think, you know, religions are religions. It's not a religion, it's based in facts. But there is something about it that weaves the world together in a way that makes sense. Um, which is one of the things that, you know, religions do for people, only it's reality. It's looking around and really trying to see the reality of animals' lives and our lives and how they all fit together. It's the only thing that makes anything, make sense.

Jasmin Singer: And that is beautiful. I mean, that was beautifully said and it is also just a beautiful thing to hold onto. And so I think with that, we should get to rising anxieties because it is what people look forward to the most.

Mariann Sullivan: I, already recorded it and I have to say, I hope I made sense 'cause I'm not making all that much sense these days. So if I don't, be forgiving.

Jasmin Singer: Extend some grace to our darling Mariann. Here's rising anxieties.