Keeping Families Together: Housing Justice for People and Their Pets with Christine Kim

Jasmin Singer: So excited. There's so much to discuss here. And Mariann and I have been super, super excited about this conversation. I mean, I don't know anyone else doing this work. And in my experience, in my opinion, that's when it's best for us to step in, right? Like when there's no one else doing this work.

Certainly this is where you came in, Christine, and you're making such a big difference. So I want to start with something that seems like a very obvious question, but I think it will help set the foundation for our chat today. Why do some people experiencing homelessness have pets?

Christine Kim: Thanks for asking the question. It might seem obvious to you and me, but I think it's a really common one. The simple short answer is that people experiencing homelessness have pets for the same reason that you and I have pets. These are beloved members of their families and not just you know, quote pets, but they're often considered their closest companions, the beings that are there for them when really they feel as though they have nothing or no one else. So that becomes a really important relationship for people to hold on to in these times of hardship when they're experiencing housing insecurity, and have lost everything.

That's really when they need their animal companions the most, but there's a little bit more of a complicated answer to this as well in that like there needs to be some dispelling of this myth that people experiencing homelessness are these other people or like a special class of people, when really housing insecurity impacts so much of us. And I think it's an issue that really is close to a lot of us whether we know it or not. So there's a lot of information out on, you know, on the interwebs and floating around out there about how many, many Americans are actually like just a couple of paychecks away from experiencing homelessness themselves. That is, I think, anecdotally very true for a lot of us. But also, even if it's not us ourselves that are close to experiencing homelessness or have experienced homelessness, it impacts the people around us. So if it's not you, it's your friend, it's your family member or somebody they know. So I just, you know, want to bring home the fact that, uh, housing insecurity, homelessness is actually much closer to us than we may realize.

And you and I have companion animals whom we love and consider part of our family, our friends and family also have this relationship. And so, putting ourselves in the shoes of people experiencing homelessness with pets, that's something that is very close to home, actually.

Mariann Sullivan: Of course, people have all sorts of, you know, pets of all different species, but it occurs to me that for people experiencing homelessness or housing insecurity or any kind of insecurity, I would imagine we're mostly talking about dogs, because other kinds of animals would be much harder to manage.

Is that right?

Christine Kim: That's also a great question. So when you look at the research, largely, yes, For the couple of studies that are out there, by and large, we are talking about dogs as companions, but that does not discount the fact that there are also numerous people with cats that are experiencing homelessness.

And then when you talk to providers that are directly providing the animal care or the housing services, you hear stories about all kinds of animals, actually birds, pocket pets, basically the span of all kinds of animals that we keep in our homes and that we love and consider a part of our families.

Jasmin Singer: What would you say are some of the major obstacles for people who are trying to hold onto their companion animals?

Christine Kim: Yeah, well, I would say the big one is that there's a lack of pet inclusive housing that is affordable in all communities, but especially places like New York City and Los Angeles and some of the major metropolitan areas where there are just large numbers of people and also large numbers of homelessness.

But also those services that connect people to housing, that actually put people on a path of ending their homelessness are not pet inclusive either. So when people are seeking interim housing, emergency shelter, other types of services, even medical services, behavioral health services, drug treatment programs, they're not taking into account.

The fact that they have these animal family members that are really hard for them to part with. And, if in some cases they're not able to bring their animals with them, they're not just going to relinquish them, and so that means that they're forgoing services altogether.

Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

Christine Kim: On the other hand, there are people who will choose to rehome their animals or feel that they have to give their animals up to the shelter in order to seek out services that are going to help them, and that is also a really difficult choice for them to have to make, and it's one that we don't feel that anyone should have to make, especially when there are programs that are innovative and are figuring out how to do this and a blueprint for actually keeping people and their animals together is emerging.

We don't feel like this is a decision that has to be hoisted upon everyone when they're already experiencing so much trauma.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, it really, I mean, it's so tragic to think that people might be forced to give up their animals because of a temporary situation that, that they need help temporarily, or they need some kind of supportive services temporarily, and they're going to be okay, but the animal's gone by then. and they're never going to get them back.

It's so sad. You know, obviously, there are many, many different reasons that people experience homelessness, but one important one, and I think one that particularly intersects with the kind of work you do is domestic violence. Can you talk about a little bit about how domestic violence intersects with people's relationships with their pets, both in, I think, in keeping them in homes where they probably should leave, and in then seeking services?

Christine Kim: Yeah, this is actually a really well documented phenomenon. It is well researched and identified that people who are experiencing family violence, or other types of interpersonal violence, who have pets in their home or in those relationships, fear for the safety and the lives of their companion animals.

And if they are seeking out services to leave that abusive situation, but they're not able to take their pets with them, they often choose to stay in that abusive situation that is dangerous for everyone because they don't want to just leave their animal companion behind with their abuser. There are also situations where families leave the abusive situation, but then end up going back to either check on their animals, or to try to retrieve their animals, and that is a dangerous situation for everyone involved as well.

And so there is a movement within domestic violence services to do more to recognize that human animal bond and to create safer spaces for people to bring their animals with them at the get go, or to at the very least have supportive partnerships where people can temporarily board or foster their animals while they're in shelter.

Jasmin Singer: Do companion animals get in the way of people accessing shelter or services that might otherwise be available.

Christine Kim: Yes, although I would reframe that a little bit, I would say that it's not the companion animal, it's the no pets allowed barrier. So it is standard practice for homeless services to have the no pets allowed rule in place. And it's just such a part of the culture, it's a part of the way that they operate, that it's not even questioned for a second.

That's like, why do we even have this? Because when you really start to think about it, it becomes very arbitrary. I always go back to the origin story of My Dog is My Home where I was working in supportive housing for like some of the most innovative cutting edge programs in the country. And it was removing all the barriers for people experiencing homelessness to receive the services that they needed. So, generally speaking, also standard practice in homeless services there's a sobriety rule, you have to show that you're working or trying to find work. You can't bring your partner, you can't bring your possessions, etc, etc.

The list goes on and on about like all the things that you can't do. And so in these cutting edge programs they're like, let's remove all the stuff just so people can like get the help that they need. However, if they have a pet, that continues to be a barrier. And that was so, so arbitrary to me.

And it continues to be an arbitrary thing. So when I talk about that story and I frame it in the context of like, hey, this is just another part of the best practices and homeless services, right? We want to give people help, not create barriers and stop them from accessing the things that they need. And so let's include pets in that because we know that this continues to be a roadblock for people to receive the help they need.

Mariann Sullivan: I can imagine though, I mean, obviously shelters, or other kinds of service places, have legitimate issues. I mean, you're talking about arbitrary rules, like, absolutely no pets, but once you start actually doing things properly, it's not like then it's easy. I can imagine there are a lot of legitimate issues with people bringing animals in.

Like what are they and how do you, at My Dog Is My Home, suggest that they deal with it. Like things like aggression and people not cleaning up. You know, you can imagine a lot of different problems.

Christine Kim: I think that's a totally fair question, Mariann. And I think I'm also approaching this from like a place of compassion for the people who work in homeless services. I think it's super easy to point my finger at them and be like, you people better start accepting pets. But the reality is that they are overwhelmed.

They are working on a stretched budget, much like many nonprofits, right? They're doing so much with so little and they feel very pressed for everything, pressed for time, pressed for money, their caseloads are enormous. And then I think even on a good day, a shelter environment, a large shelter environment can be sort of unpredictable.

And so adding another layer of unpredictability with animals that they're not trained to deal with can feel very scary. It's a legitimate point for pause to be like, well, okay, let's figure out how to do this. I think where I run into problems is when there's sort of like a, absolutely not, we're not entertaining this.

But I think it's totally fair for an organization to to recognize a barrier and try to think creatively about how they meet the need and what resources they need to put in place to plan for meeting that need. I think, you know, some of the big questions that organizations have, the ones that come up over and over again, I think what they really boil down to is liability.

And so, shelter organizations, particularly ones with a large shared spaces, we call them congregate shelter environments, where you have lots of people, sometimes hundreds of people sleeping in a shared space, it's just like an open floor with bunk beds or cots that are rolled out next to each other, and how you safely accommodate people with animals, particularly dogs in that space that is already sort of loud and chaotic. So really, they're afraid that a dog is going to bite somebody. But all of those are the other things that you mentioned, Mariann, are definitely questions as well. Like nuisance behaviors.

What if a dog barks constantly, at the annoyance of all the people who share that space? What if the human handler doesn't pick up after their animal? What if there's property damage? Those things come up over and over again as well.

And that's really what My Dog is My home is here for, it's to help them plan and prepare for these things. So a lot can be mitigated with good policies. And so we help organizations develop those policies and those practices to make sure that everyone can stay safe and that all of the problematic things that may come up are as rare as possible.

Jasmin Singer: You started to allude to this, but tell us a little bit more about the difference between shelters that accommodate companion animals and those that have co sheltering facilities.

Christine Kim: Thanks for bringing that up. I throw around the term co sheltering so often that I forget that it's not common vocabulary for just everyone. Co sheltering, by our definition is sheltering people and pets together at the same facility as opposed to having like a co located facility where the person is in one space and the animal is somewhere else, whether that be a kennel or like an offsite boarding facility somewhere else.

There are shelters around the country, that have been co sheltering people and pets together at the same facility where people and pets can stay together and some of them have been doing it for quite a while and have like a great track record of a decade or more of keeping people and pets together.

So we're working with those organizations to sort of glean their best practices so that we can create sort of playbooks for everybody else. Like they've done it for 10 plus years. You can do it too, and this is how they accomplished that.

Mariann Sullivan: And some places actually have a separate kennel facility?

Christine Kim: Yes, it's not my favorite model, but I think, you know, anything to get the ball rolling is good. In places that have a longer history of co sheltering, like in Los Angeles, for example, this was sort of the early phase of co-sheltering or early models. There's one place in particular, like a large provider in the Hollywood area that started out with it was a standalone kennel.

It was almost like a prefabricated little kennel that was forklifted and brought and then dropped in the staff parking lot in the basement. And the people could go upstairs and access the bunks and, you know, get their meals and all that. And then they would kennel their animals in this separate space that was still on site, but separate.

And, I think that was groundbreaking at the time, but we we love the direction that they've moved in now after so many years. You know, after a while, they just realized that like, hey, it was better for everyone for the animals and their health and for the people and their health, to keep people and their pets together in the way that they were used to.

So now it's just like dogs sleeping in their beds in people's beds. So the sort of least restrictive environment model, is something that is practiced today and it's come a long way. It's evolved quite a bit to get to this point. And what we're seeing is that it works beautifully. It actually works beautifully.

And all of those liability concerns about people being bitten by dogs and things like that, that just doesn't happen with regularity to the point where they feel like they need to keep people and the animals separate.

Mariann Sullivan: I'm just kind of wondering, though, just one additional question about facilities that aren't there yet, that might not even have a separate shelter. I'm just wondering, do foster care networks ever have a role here so that, you know, it's kind of a beginning step.

You could develop a foster care network that would take animals temporarily while people can't take care of them.

Christine Kim: Yeah. And we're seeing that much more often these days and I love those programs. I think they are providing a tremendous service to the community. Um, the animal welfare organizations that step forward and the rescue groups that step forward to provide the service are doing a great job.

But I always push back a little bit, right? Like, I think that that is great. But, we know that the long term goal is to reunite people in their pets and foster networks only have so much that they can give actually, and the situation of homelessness is so precarious and unpredictable that it's hard to know exactly how long an animal will be in foster care.

And what we find in some situations, and not in some, in many situations, actually, is that the length of stay in an interim housing facility is actually so much longer than anyone expected because there's a lack of pet friendly affordable housing, they cannot move in a timely way that the foster network cannot just like continuously hold that animal indefinitely.

And so it doesn't always lead to reunification. Also, foster care and boarding is such a resource intensive service. Um, the cost of keeping an animal in boarding or the cost of having that animal in someone else's home is actually far greater than keeping the person and their pet together and just supporting them in the same space.

Mariann Sullivan: I can imagine too that also it consumes foster care resources that could be going to animals who don't have anybody, and which are always desperately needed. So, even from just from an animal policy point of view, it's best to keep animals with the person who, who really loves them.

Christine Kim: Yes, exactly. I think just from a resource allocation standpoint, it is much more efficient to keep, you know, if that animal has a family and a person that really loves them, that is right to keep them together.

Mariann Sullivan: plenty of animals who need that, that available foster home.

Christine Kim: Yep, exactly.

Jasmin Singer: And the people too, because, and this is probably, I would guess, a topic that you enjoy, what would you say are some of the advantages for people experiencing homelessness in having these companion animals. Obviously, they can be an obstacle in some ways, but in what ways can they help humans get through things?

Christine Kim: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. I mean, the, the benefits are numerous in the same way that they benefit you and me, just having that close contact with the animals that we love. There have been studies that show that it really helps with their mental health. It provides them a sense of motivation, um, and that like, hey, they're going through a really hard time, um, but their animal needs them.

Their dog, for example, needs to be walked, needs to be fed. It gives them a sense of purpose and a schedule that is so helpful during these difficult times. I'm sure many of us can actually relate to that. But also just want to reiterate again that the experience of homelessness is really traumatic in and of itself, regardless of what came before or what will come after.

Homelessness itself is traumatic. And that is when you need support the most. So keeping your loved ones close to you, that provide that constant companionship and a sense of hope, like that is critically important.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. I read somewhere recently, this is probably obvious to everybody, but just humans as primates or as the type of primate we are, we, we have a fundamental innate need to care for someone. Like it's probably what created survival for our species, that we care. And, so I can imagine, when your situation is very dire, the fact that you're caring for somebody else, it just helps you, psychologically, just get through it. I mean, assuming you are in a position or organizations help you be in a position that you're actually able to do that, it's such an enormous accomplishment that you have managed to get your dog through this with you.

I would imagine it would change everything. You had mentioned before, briefly, but I'd like to revisit it. Can you talk a little bit about some of the issues with rental housing? Particularly at the lower end of the price scale or public housing, and pets and how that is affecting people.

Christine Kim: Yes, this is a huge issue. What we're seeing In research is that accessible housing is not available for everyone in an equitable way. So your higher end luxury housing is much more likely to be inclusive or pet friendly, whereas on the lower end, um, If you are lucky enough to find a pet friendly unit, there are all kinds of fees associated with that.

Additional pet rents and security deposits and all kinds of stuff. And so what we're seeing are the lower income folks who are largely, you know, it's largely made up of black and brown folks, essentially you know, that's what we're talking about. They do not have the same accessibility to pet inclusive and pet friendly housing.

So we're also looking at the question of like, who is allowed to have a companion animal with them, even when they are in rental housing.

Jasmin Singer: How are municipalities addressing this? Like, in particular, I understand that DC has taken a progressive stance here.

Christine Kim: Yes, there are some great movements around the country to take a look at pet inclusive rental housing, but also interim housing as well. So looking at people who are actively currently experiencing homelessness and how they can access shelter resources and other types of services. D. C. Is a great example.

Colorado actually just had a hearing on making pets inclusion mandatory in any state funded affordable housing developments, which would be huge. Then Los Angeles, and the state of California, has a lot going on for it, but Los Angeles County had a similar thing pass a couple of years ago where any low income, affordable housing developments in Los Angeles County must be inclusive of pets, which was a huge win and a model for really all kinds of legislation that came after it for different areas across the U. S.

And then in New York State there's a bill that was introduced not very long ago by Senator Monica Martinez, about co sheltering people and pets together. So it would essentially create a fund to be administered by the state of New York, giving out grants to providers of emergency shelter and domestic violence shelters to pay for any pet related costs of keeping people and pets together in interim housing, which just the introduction of the bill itself is a huge win, but we're hopeful to see it move past all the various stages of legislation.

Mariann Sullivan: So you're seeing things happening, I guess, at the state and the local level. I won't even ask about federal because, let's face it, the federal government is not something we want to talk about at the moment. But I do kind of want, like, do you think local is, local regulations, state regulations are the more profitable area to focus on?

And I kind of wonder, this is probably me being very Pollyanna ish, but in these days of political paralysis in so many ways, these might be issues that you could actually get bipartisan support for.

One of the few areas.

Christine Kim: Yes. Actually, I agree. I agree. So, I feel like animals can be a great unifier. And especially if we're talking about, I mean, homelessness does tend to be a bit of a divisive topic when you're into politicians, but if you're talking about veteran homelessness and animals, I feel like that is a great bridge builder.

And in fact, we did try this on the federal level not terribly long ago, but we've sort of set that aside for now, and I agree. I do think the local and state level is probably where the efforts are best spent these days. But on the federal level, there was a bill that was introduced. It was called the Providing for Unhoused People with Pets Act, the PUPP Act. And we hope that in the future, this is something that can be revived. But it was a similar bill to what I just described on the New York State level, but it would create a fund that would be administered by Department of Agriculture and Department of Housing and Urban Development jointly, to various providers across the country that provide emergency shelter or permanent supportive housing and would pay for all those pet related costs.

And even though it was sort of an expansive bill in that way, there was bipartisan support for it, because the messaging and the talking points were really around veteran homelessness and how veterans really need their companion animals. And that was something that everyone could get behind, no matter what side of the aisle you're on.

Jasmin Singer: I'm afraid to ask the next question just because this is something that really gets me like, you know, there's just those hot button issues. And this is one of mine. How does the breed of your dog enter into the equation in both finding housing and finding shelter?

Christine Kim: Ooh, yeah, that's good. So, this is something that's coming up quite a bit in the discussion, like the, the vocabulary, actually, the way we talk about this issue is changing as well. So there's the term pet friendly, and then there's the term pet inclusive. And pet friendly, I think that's one that we're all familiar with and we use it as a catch all to mean like, oh, your pets are welcome here, but actually it's much more nuanced than that and what we're finding just like with the research on who has access to what kind of housing and are you allowed to bring your pet with you?

And how much does it cost? We're also finding that the types of dogs that are allowed it's not equitably distributed across the board here. And so when you're talking about again, sort of the luxury developments, people with lots of money that can pay for just about anything, they have much more free reign over, you know, what kinds of dogs they have.

What kinds of amenities they have, where they're allowed to go, folks who are looking at lower cost rentals or affordable rentals don't have that same luxury. And so the distinction in the language is, pet friendly means that there can be still, still barriers put up, even though animals are welcome, it's still like some animals are welcome.

And you may still have to pay some fees and there're just a bunch of check boxes that you need to tick off. Pet inclusive means that it's much more expansive, so it's a truer representation of like pets welcome. So the breed of the animal doesn't matter quite so much. The fees don't matter quite as much.

This language has developed because there is a recognition that not all animals, not all people across the income scale are treated the same.

Mariann Sullivan: Do you think that, I mean, I assume we're talking largely about pitbulls here, but how much do you feel that it is people authentically having issues with pitbulls who, you know, are big dogs who I guess have caused problems in some areas, but pitbulls kind of standing in for racial discrimination.

Christine Kim: A 100%. Yeah. There's a lot of work on this too, in that basically large dogs with big heads, you know, there's just a difference in the way that they are perceived. And it's also who's handling that dog, of course. So again, your more affluent folks who are white are perceived very differently when they have a large dog with a big head versus folks who are lower income, who may be black or brown that have a large dog.

The perception is just different. And I think there's a lot of room for bias.

Mariann Sullivan: Yes. good way to hide bias too.

Jasmin Singer: What do people do about vet care? Like, is it ever available? I mean, I know this is obviously an issue for a lot of people, not just those experiencing homelessness. I had an emergency with my cat a couple weeks ago. He's fine now. He ate some yarn. He had to have emergency surgery. It was very scary.

He's fine now. He's sort of pleased with himself, but that's another story. He said it was delicious. And I mean, like Moore and I, my wife and I, it's a good thing we both make an income is all I'm saying, because I can't imagine what people in lower income brackets or no income would have done in that situation.

It really hurt our bank account and we both make an income. So what about in this situation?

Christine Kim: Yeah, access to care, access to veterinary care is a big problem, across all different income levels. And for people experiencing homelessness, it can be a really challenging situation if your animal requires care, even the most basic care like vaccines and preventative care. Actually, what we're really pleased with in the animal welfare world is this shift towards more community based programming, and low cost clinics and things like that.

So that has been a huge shift in animal welfare where previously, there were all kinds of Judgments. Uh, I guess I shouldn't say the word previously. So this is still a battle that, sort of the animal welfare community has to fight. But I think we're seeing a shift in the discussion here, a shift in the mindset that just because a person needs to access low cost care, that doesn't mean that they're not a good animal caregiver or that they should, you know, be forced to relinquish the animal, or they should be subject to all kinds of like home checks and other measures that are put in place to ensure that the animal is appropriately being cared for, it just means that a person needs a little extra support and needs access to that care to keep their animal with them.

So, that is something that the animal welfare world is sort of discussing right now and how to provide more of those services. And that is a huge support to, you know, the homelessness and homeless advocacy community and to homeless services providers that are trying to keep people and their pets together in facilities because again, they do want to do it safely when they do make that shift to pet friendly and pet inclusive.

They want to make sure that animals are also getting their vaccines, they highly encourage spay neuter, you know, all of that stuff and they want to have resources on hand for when there are emergencies and emergency vet cases. But of course, that's hard to provide. It's hard to connect with animal welfare organizations if they don't have these community based programs that provide low cost care.

Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: Can we talk a little bit about public perceptions of people who have animals who are experiencing homelessness? I would assume that sometimes people just assume that if they see somebody panhandling who has animals, that the animals might be being used as a prop. And you know, I can imagine that actually could happen, and that would create hostility towards the idea of people being allowed to keep animals.

And there might also be a perception that people who are experiencing homelessness just can't care for their pets, and they shouldn't be allowed to have them. And on the other hand, I can imagine that if handled correctly, this could create more sympathy for people who are experiencing homelessness, if they're seen caring for the pets.

I'm just, I'm not sure exactly what the question is here. I'm just wondering, we've talked about the attitudes of people who are working in this area, but what about the general public? Do you think there's mixed feelings about this?

Christine Kim: It's all the above very and I think you hit a lot of different perspectives that the public has. I've heard on many occasions that people experiencing homelessness don't get a lot of interaction from the public unless they have their animal with them and people will stop by much more likely to interact with them when they have their animal present with them.

It's also interesting that sometimes they feel that people care more about the animal than them. But on the positive side, they do feel like, hey, I'm building relationships, you know, in the same way for you and me, like animals can be that social lubricant

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, it sounds very similar to

Christine Kim: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: people who aren't experiencing homelessness.

Christine Kim: Right. Yeah. So, so there's that piece.

But of course, there's also the judgment piece that is not so positive. There are also numerous, numerous stories about people who have had their animals stolen from them because people from the public that, you know, how dare that homeless person, have a pet. Like that's abuse. That's neglect.

Like they don't have the right to have an animal. People get accosted for having animals. And there's just an immediate snap judgment that if they cannot care for themselves materially, then they should not be caring for an animal. But what we know from so many years of operating and then also it's not an area that has gone unresearched.

There is actually research that looks at the bond between people and their animals and also the body condition and health of the animals of people experiencing homelessness. And that by and large, we're talking about healthy animals that are really well loved and very much bonded to their people. If anything, just speaking on the health side of the animals belonging to people experiencing homelessness, they were a little overweight. That's all. From probably getting too much love and treats.

Mariann Sullivan: And they, you know, like for people who, who are experiencing homelessness, who have no place to leave their dog all day, the dog ends up being with them all day. I would imagine most dogs would consider that pretty ideal.

Christine Kim: Yes. In fact, there's a great story by a researcher named Leslie Irvine. She is probably the foremost researcher in this field. Um, she's done a lot to establish, like, what that relationship between people experiencing homelessness and their pets actually means to them. And her origin story and the way she picked up this topic as a research area and an area of interest for her is that she had that exact reaction where she was driving down the street.

She saw a man panhandling with his dog in the median and she thought, poor dog, let me pull over and offer to buy this dog off of this person. And the man was like, my dog is with me, very happy, very healthy, and I love my dog. Where's your dog, lady? At home in a crate? And in fact, when she thought about it, she's like, yes, my dog, my dog is at home in the crate.

And so people, you know, I think the lack of a physical home doesn't really mean that much for the dog themselves. They're really just looking for that love and companionship and the devotion of their human handler, which they get in abundance.

Jasmin Singer: So, okay, how do I ask this? Homelessness, or I guess I would say some temporary forms of homelessness can, of course, be the result of mass emergencies as well as individual circumstances. And you've brought up Los Angeles a few times. I understand that Los Angeles did a pretty good job with animal issues during the recent fires.

Christine Kim: Yes, I would say so, all things considered. I think it wasn't without its problems and it wasn't without a lot of advocacy from certain players. You're right. I mean, people who lose their homes because of a natural disaster or some other emergency are also experiencing homelessness.

They lost their homes. And a lot of folks have pets. And so those emergency shelters that pop up due to disaster response that are run by places like the American Red Cross or sometimes churches chip in right to open their doors and open their facilities to shelter people temporarily. Those are also They're treated differently in a sense, but they're also in a way, homeless shelters.

They're temporary accommodations for people to sleep in because they've lost their homes. And they also need to be included in this discussion about pet inclusion and like what people do with their animals and the barriers that people face because of the no pets allowed rule. So, in Los Angeles in particular, I wanna shout out Pasadena Humane.

Which did a wonderful job advocating for pet inclusion in emergency shelter. So I think when things were first getting started, you know, it was sort of business as usual, Pasadena Humane was taking in a huge number of animals from people who had lost their homes in that area. And then they were like, Hey, We can't continue to do this. We can't operate like this.

But also I think it's common knowledge that people need their animals like we want to keep them together during this crisis situation. And so with a lot of advocacy and support American Red Cross did make all of their shelters pet friendly in response to that, but it did take some time and it took some effort.

Mariann Sullivan: Hasn't there been some reform in this area after Katrina? I mean, I thought there was federal legislation that at least had certain requirements, on emergency preparedness, vis a vis pets, because Katrina was such a, uh, unbelievable disaster in that area. Are there some rules that they're working with and they're just not quite good enough?

Christine Kim: think the answer is yes, you're talking about the Pets Act, which was huge, and it's wonderful that that exists and that there's official language on the books and federal law that says that, you know, municipalities and governments have to really plan for the transportation and and placement of animals.

But it is, from my understanding, broad and sort of left up to the individual parties to decide how they operationalize that and sometimes it's operationalized and sometimes it isn't. And there isn't a lot of recourse or enforcement that happens. So, unfortunately, that's sort of the state of affairs as I understand it.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. I mean, it happens. I mean, I'm not saying this area it's as bad as in some other areas, but it happens so often that, that feel good laws can get passed in animal protection, but actually implementing policy is a longterm constant job that sometimes doesn't get done as well in animal areas. It doesn't get done in in human areas as well, but even more so. So I yeah I'm a little disheartened to hear that that hasn't been more effective than it has though I'm sure things are better than they were before Katrina.

Christine Kim: I think the fact that there was such public outcry that it really created a public discourse around animals and was was the gain.

Jasmin Singer: And speaking of New Orleans and Los Angeles, another area of increasing homelessness is migration and of course, climate based migration. So what are some of the international issues for people forced to leave their homes with their animals?

Christine Kim: Oh, yes, so we actually cover this topic quite a bit, in our annual conferences, one of which is coming up at the end of the month. But with the sort of influx of asylum seekers from, South and Central America crossing the border into border towns in the United States, and then also being bussed and transported around the United States.

We have actually seen migrants and asylum seekers with companion animals also, in the mix here. Because, you know, just like us, they have companion animals that they consider to be a part of their families, no matter what part of the world they came from, that relationship is pretty universal.

And so there's one case in particular that I want to talk about. There was a woman who, and her family that had come from Venezuela. They crossed the Darien Gap on foot, which is one of the most dangerous kind of migration pathways in the world. And they had their dog with them when they crossed the border.

They came all this way, they crossed the border. And, at the border, they were told that they could not bring their dog. Can you imagine having gone through all of that with your dog in your son's like your 13 year old son's backpack traveling traversing on foot for thousands of miles through the jungle and whatnot. And thank goodness there was a kind hearted border patrol agent that did take the dog.

And then somehow the dog ended up in the hands of a rescue that worked specifically on this issue in a border town in El Paso, they worked to reunite migrant families with their animals that they were separated from at the border. And so this family actually ended up being bused by Governor Greg Abbott from Texas to New York City and her dog was claimed here by this rescue organization and there's a video of them reuniting at the airport and it's just the most beautiful thing because you know all of the things that I've talked about all of the themes about how people need their animals- They've gone through crisis, right?

Like that's all just on full display that they're just so excited and relieved and the outpouring of emotion to be reunited with their animal and during this difficult time. It's very beautiful to watch. So I encourage everyone to go find that video. You can find it on our YouTube page, which you can find on our website, but you can also find references to it on our Instagram page our handle is @mydogismyhomeofficial.

And I also encourage you all to come hear more stories like this at our conference that's coming up.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, we were saving that question for the end But now that you've mentioned it, tell us about the conference.

Christine Kim: Yes. So every year we have an online conference. This year it's March 25th through the 27th of 2025, and it's completely virtual, so no travel required, but it's three days that are dedicated to exploring the practices of keeping people and their pets together through homelessness. And we bring a wide audience together.

So there are folks in animal advocacy that work frontline in animal shelters, folks who come from, you know, rescue groups. And then there are also the homeless services folks and the human services folks. So we have sort of the same representation across the human side. We have homeless advocates, people who work frontline at homeless shelters, et cetera, et cetera.

People who have all kinds of roles in all different kinds of organizations. So I encourage you all to come. I think there's something for everyone. But we also have a very heavy emphasis on storytelling because we do feel like the key to change is not really presenting all of the research and presenting sort of even the best practices.

It's really shining a light on the human experience, and getting people to understand that there are real impacts to kind of keeping people and their pets together or not. And what does it mean for these families when they are allowed to stay together and how does that impact their journey through homelessness and ending their homelessness.

So we get to hear from folks with lived experience and treat them like the experts that they are over their own lives and their experience and what is needed to change the system that we have.

Jasmin Singer: There's no tactful way of bringing this up, so I'll just say that, I think you're offering a discount for Our Hen House listeners, is that right?

Christine Kim: Yes, that is correct. So anyone who is listening, we welcome you to join us. There's a discount of $65 off of our ticket. So it brings the price down to $75. And the code is hen house 2025. And you can register right there on our website. Just go to mydogismyhome.org/2025-conference. And you'll see the registration button right there, and I hope you all can join us.

Jasmin Singer: That's, that's very generous of you. And, by the way, for our listeners and our flock who's here, maybe you know this already and maybe you don't, but if you don't, I'm about to make you very happy because one thing we love about you, Christine, is that you're vegan. So what's your experience here as it relates to other companion animal advocacy groups?

Like, are there more vegans than I think running the show at these places? Or is it still like a really weird cognitive dissonance situation?

Christine Kim: Well, at My Dog is My Home in particular, there are loads of vegans running the show. So, I'm vegan. Actually, I go way back with Jasmin. When I first became vegan, um, I was a college animal activist. I watched, Peaceable Kingdom for the first time. And I went from being vegetarian to being vegan and Jasmin was there at the screening and she offered to help me, mentor me and like coach me through the transition and I think I owe a lot to Jasmin.

I think I'm still vegan today because

Jasmin Singer: Oh my gosh. Thank

Christine Kim: Oh,

Jasmin Singer: That's so sweet. I wasn't even sure if you remembered.

Christine Kim: Oh, my God. Are you kidding? I wasn't sure you remembered.

Jasmin Singer: Thank you. Of course. That was like 20 years more than that was like 20 years ago,

Christine Kim: Yeah. But she told me what kale is. She took me to Lifetime Supermarket in the West Village. It was wonderful. Good times. But yeah, loads of vegans at my dog is my home. Um, in fact, many of our, our, founding board vegans, people who work in homeless services, but also have a heart for animals. And I think for our team in particular, we just see the through line between all of all beings all marginalized populations, you know, like we just need to do better for everyone, right?

So that's, that's us as an organization. But, speaking about other organizations across the board, I do think that there's, um, I think things are changing. I think things are changing. I think there's still a little bit of that cognitive dissonance, but, you know, compared to where we were 10 years ago when I first started and was making all these relationships with animal welfare and companion animal organizations, you know, people don't raise their eyebrows at me anymore when I say that I'm vegan or that we have a plant based policy and I'm not paying for this lunch unless you're eating vegan, right? So, like, now they're like, oh, okay, I'll make it, I'll get it.

Jasmin Singer: That's good. That's

Christine Kim: conversation is shifting, yeah.

Jasmin Singer: I mean, I know that we can, all of us here or all of us listening can point to so many different areas of our life where it's like, but why aren't they vegan? Or like they're a climate activist. Why aren't they vegan? They, you know, they care so deeply about X, Y, Z cause.

Why aren't they vegan? But I mean, there's something about the line people draw with animals that it's particularly you know, mind boggling to me. So I'm happy to hear that things might be shifting in that way. And I'm just so thrilled about all of the work that you guys are doing.

So I want you to make sure to reiterate your website and social media, but before you do, what can people do who would like to volunteer in their own community or and support your efforts?

Christine Kim: Oh, well, you know, at My Dog Is My Home, we love volunteers. In fact, we were an all volunteer run organization up until pretty recently. So we're always looking for people with skills and time to donate and contribute to the cause. But if you are looking for a more hands on opportunity in your community, I think starting with your, local animal welfare organization.

So if that's your open admission shelter or a humane society in your area, I think, jumping onto whatever kind of community programming that they have is a wonderful place to begin, and starting that conversation with folks, that are of that mindset that they need to provide accessible support services to community members. Starting a conversation with them about how they support their local homeless services organizations as well and keeping people and pets together through housing crisis.

Jasmin Singer: I love it. Thank you. And reiterate your own website and your socials as well for our listeners.

Christine Kim: Yes, you can visit our website at mydogismyhome. org, follow us on social media at mydogismyhomeofficial, that's our Instagram handle. And again, I hope to see you at our conference coming up this March, and the conference code for anyone that's listening is henhouse2025.

Jasmin Singer: Thank you so much, Christine. I know you're gonna, you're gonna hang out and do a Q and A with our flock, but I just want to say you're fucking fantastic. And, um, this has been so inspiring and so moving. And honestly, I just had my eyelashes done and I'm not supposed to get them wet and I kept like tearing up.

So that's the only thing I'm mad about. But other than that, I'm absolutely thrilled that you are our guest today.

Christine Kim: Oh, thank you. It's been really wonderful. Thank you for having this conversation with me.