Fur is Dead!: How Local Advocates Are Ending Fur Sales Across America with Kara Holmquist, Max Broad, and Conor Lamkin

[00:00:11] Jasmin Singer: We are so excited about this and we have so many questions and there's three of you. So for the, I think maybe for, well, maybe not the first time, but one of the first times in Our Hen House history, the number of guests outnumbers the hosts. So that's kind of fun. So I'm a little intimidated, but in a good way, which is how I like to live my life.

So, Kara, I wanna start with you. I think that the best place to start is at the end. So short version, and then we're gonna get into some details. Briefly, what has been achieved, so far, anyway, in Massachusetts?

[00:00:45] Kara Holmquist: So we have eight local ordinances in Massachusetts. A group called Fur Free Massachusetts, a woman named Liza decided that this is an important issue and started the group Fur Free Massachusetts and took on her hometown. And that was in 2021. After that happened, the movement really grew and advocates across the state saw what she did, had the resources from her, from us to take the initiative and work on something in their own city or town.

And we've been really fortunate to have eight successful measures passed and the ones that have passed in city councils have been unanimous. And the ones that have passed in our old school, old New England town meeting have been, really, by wide margins. So it's been a very positive momentum effort.

[00:01:33] Mariann Sullivan: It is really, really exciting. I'm actually not sure of the division of labor here. You mentioned Fur Free Mass, which I guess started out local and is now a statewide organization and you had local people on the ground, I think, in all of these places, which seems crucial to me. And you are from MSPCA, and then there's the Animal Policy Alliance.

Can you just kind of like, that's a lot of different players. Can you just kind of break down what everybody was doing?

[00:01:57] Kara Holmquist: It really works well. I'm such a big coalition person and so I've been at the M-S-P-C-A forever and we're, you know, a large state group. We were founded in 1868 and we have animal shelters and animal hospitals and our advocacy department and work on a wide variety of issues on the state level and locally and Fur Free Massachusetts is the fairly new group that really is just focusing on fur. I find that so helpful as somebody that deals with a large number of issues to have those groups that have that singular focus that can just really stay on that issue. And we have a big membership. We have relationships with lawmakers across the state and have worked on other local ordinances, on other issues.

So I think we can be a really valuable resource and, and a group that can connect people. And then we're so excited, I'm so excited, to be a part of the Animal Policy Alliance because the resources that are available to us and advocates, it's just really helpful, working with them to make sure that we have the best language, which is so important.

We've all had a piece to play and going back to what you said about advocates on the local level, absolutely. Each of these measures have had that key person or people who live in that community, which is so important to drive these efforts forward.

[00:03:12] Jasmin Singer: Kara, we wanna stick with you for just a few more minutes. I doubt there's anyone listening who hasn't experienced in fighting, or to put it more kindly, I'll say, differences in perspective among animal protection organizations. So how did you avoid this? Or if it was unavoidable how did you handle it?

[00:03:33] Kara Holmquist: I think we've been really lucky with not having too much of that and not on this issue and not in the local ordinances. I think everybody has really gotten along and if there are differences, put them aside and have learned from each other. For example, some of the ordinances, I worked on some pet shop bans in cities and towns, and then that sort of paved the way for the fur ban, I think in four of the towns.

So, so advocates had worked through the process with the pet shop ban and then it was primed for, you know, the next animal protection issue. So there's a lot of people involved, but I feel that we've all look at learning from each other and while connecting and figuring out, we just wanna know how can we make the most progress and move forward.

[00:04:23] Mariann Sullivan: Having been doing this for a while, do you think this is perhaps a sign of maturity in the animal protection movement?

[00:04:30] Kara Holmquist: I hope so. I feel like I've always tried to really just put my head down and do the work. There's times where it can be a little bit challenging, but I think in the local measures too, I feel maybe there's less ownership of things and bringing together, you know, folks who have not done anything even like this before, really newbies, like people who are just like, Hey, I saw this happen in the next town over and I wanna do this.

I don't have any policy experience, but I care a lot about animals. I know that this is a really cruel practice and I wanna make a difference. So we're having a lot of people who are really new and just going at it, you know, without any sort of awareness that there might be different groups or different perspectives or different things going on.

[00:05:07] Jasmin Singer: I know we have other guests too, just bear with us here, Kara, were all the bills the same or did they vary from municipality to municipality?

[00:05:16] Kara Holmquist: They're pretty much the same. We've learned some lessons along the way, but they're pretty similar. There's three that have a provision for online sales, but mostly they're similar in that they prevent the sale of fur, and have some exemptions for used fur products, some exemptions for religious purposes. And, you know, we do have a bill now on the state level too. So of course these are great to have in our, communities, but there is, you know, a hope to build that momentum so that legislation on the state level will advance.

[00:05:52] Mariann Sullivan: So they do include fur, trim? I mean, it's all fur.

[00:05:54] Kara Holmquist: Yes, yes. And most of the communities have had some sale of fur, but it has been mostly, mostly trim gloves, pompoms, key chains, that kind of fur products.

[00:06:04] Mariann Sullivan: So crucial because so many people think that, oh, well fur trim is just, like in so many different areas, it's just a byproduct. But nothing's just a byproduct. It's all money in the pocket of the people doing this. So that's such a crucial piece of it. And online sales, how does that work?

I mean, I guess you just say it and then people understand they're not supposed to do it. It would be hard to catch them, wouldn't it?

[00:06:26] Kara Holmquist: It is, it, it is hard to enforce that provision and we are working on that. I think there's a lot of awareness happening with these local ordinances too. So I do think it's part of the overall trend of, you know, designers and shops not participating in this cruel trade. So there's a lot of discouraging people, promoting alternative products or alternative fashion, which I know Max is gonna talk about.

But I think it's an awareness about the cruelty and, you know, obviously somebody could try to get around the online sales, but we're hoping that learning more about why this is prohibited will be helpful too.

[00:07:02] Jasmin Singer: And Kara, what was the opposition?

[00:07:05] Kara Holmquist: So it's, uh, you know, sometimes it's, oh, well, there's not enough fur sales, why are you doing this? And then sometimes it's, there's too much fur sales, this is going to hurt our, our merchants. And then there's sometimes been, we just don't wanna add another bylaw. One of the towns that has a bylaw now did have some opposition from a fur trade group.

Had some hunting groups and some agricultural groups weigh in and threaten to challenge the bylaw. And so one lesson we learned from that is, sort of strategically how much to promote these things before they're passed, especially outside of the city or town, you know, to try to prevent from making potential opposition aware.

[00:07:49] Mariann Sullivan: I That is really interesting because I am really surprised you only had industry opposition in one town. I mean, I guess it helps too that these were not huge. These aren't big cities, so maybe they don't seem that important to them. But still, that is really heartening that you didn't have more institutional opposition.

[00:08:07] Kara Holmquist: Yeah, and Cambridge is a pretty big city,

[00:08:09] Mariann Sullivan: That's true!

[00:08:10] Kara Holmquist: You know, and, and you know, hopefully there'll be more, we're have several feelers out and are working with advocates who, you know, want to be the next city or town. So hopefully they'll just continue to grow and really do wanna credit Fur Free Massachusetts for really starting this movement.

I'm so happy to have them as a partner working on these.

[00:08:28] Mariann Sullivan: I just have one more question before we move to DC. How did the legislators react? I mean, like, did it require a lot of persuasion when you went in there? First off, were they open to it or was it like, you know, 'cause a lot of legislators react in a very hostile way to these things. Or sometimes they're friendly in the beginning and then they realize, they don't know what they're talking about and there's a lot of opposition and they turn.

[00:08:51] Kara Holmquist: Yeah, so it's really interesting. In Massachusetts we have city councils and we also have this really crazy town meeting process where either every, you know,

[00:08:58] Mariann Sullivan: that. Yeah.

[00:08:59] Kara Holmquist: everybody in the town gets to vote or you know, your representatives that there's like 200 or 300 people that get to vote. So it really, the approach is very different and the strategy is very different. City councils are a little bit more manageable 'cause you're dealing with 11 or or 13 folks. But for in Attleborough, for example, we knew the mayor because he had been a state representative who was very friendly on animal issues. So we were like, Hey, you know, let's approach him while he's still there to see if we can do something in Attleboro.

And that was the pet shop ban. But that really, I think, helped pave the way for the fur band because we had knew the process and the advocates were familiar. The town meetings are a little bit harder because you are trying to get to either 200 or 300 people or everybody who can vote. It's hard to target.

And so the messaging gets a little bit, and the strategy gets a little bit more complicated. But we have a great city counselor, he's actually vice mayor, in Cambridge and he's done a bunch of different animal measures. And so we reached out to him. He's always been very supportive, but it took a little while 'cause he was strategically waiting for the right time.

He was interested in the issue, but there was a lot of other things going on, so it took a little bit longer, but when the timing was right, it worked. But overall, legislators have been pretty, pretty receptive. They wanna be a humane community. We try to praise them for being a humane community. And they take pride in that.

[00:10:19] Jasmin Singer: Well that's good. That's hopeful to hear. Hopefully Max, you also have some hopeful words of wisdom here. I wanna turn to you, your outcome so far has not been successful, for a, a variety of reasons, many of which are unique to DC and you're working with an entirely different legislative situation, just one jurisdiction and also one that is different in many ways from any place else.

So, I know this is a big question, and I don't wanna get lost in the weeds here, but can you briefly tell us about the non-democratic nature of DC legislation?

[00:10:57] Max Broad: Yeah, absolutely. So, in DC we are not a state. If you come to DC you'll see taxation without representation on our license plates, because sure enough, we don't have the same democratic rights that every other state and city has within the 50 United States of America. And so it's extremely undemocratic that Congress has veto authority over DC laws.

And, you know, this has impacted us directly with our efforts to ban fur in dc which were held up because of this.

[00:11:28] Jasmin Singer: Wow.

[00:11:29] Mariann Sullivan: And I wanna get to that too. But let's get the good part of the story first 'cause you ran an amazing campaign. And am I right that your first step, and Kara I think you alluded to this being frequently very important as well, your first step was to identify the right legislator to champion the bill?

[00:11:48] Max Broad: Right. So, you know, essentially what we did was we put together a candidate questionnaire. Since we're a lobbying group instead of a traditional charity, we're allowed to engage in elections in ways that charities, typical charities are not able to. And so what we did was we put together a candidate questionnaires, assembled some of our top policy interests for animal protection on one questionnaire, send it out to all the candidates running in the elections.

And we got one surprise answer back actually from the former mayor of DC. And this is really a heartwarming story because not only was he interested in our issues in our organization, which had just come into being in 2020, but also he was particularly drawn to the fur issue because his late wife had been not only a big animal advocate, but because of her relationship with PETA, who had worked with her tireless to become a real champion for fur. And so you know, her pet issue, so to speak, was to ban fur, and he wanted to introduce the bill on her behalf, which was just really sweet. And, you know, one thing we had been paying attention to was the efforts in New York City to ban fur, which had ultimately not gone through, at least not yet.

And a big part of that was a fur industry mobilizing the Black and Hasidic Jewish communities that had traditional ties to, cultural ties to fur. And so, you know, it really stood out that not only was a council member who's Black willing to be the voice for this, he comes from DC's community that's predominantly Black, and that really neutralized any race-based opposition to the bill.

[00:13:26] Mariann Sullivan: Oh, that was very powerful. I, I hadn't realized that part of the story. Finding the right person really makes a difference.

[00:13:32] Max Broad: Yes.

[00:13:33] Jasmin Singer: if you come to my house, you will see multiple pins on my wife's coats and bags saying, make DC a state 'cause she is from DC and it's a big pet peeve of hers.

Okay, Max, what's it? Your bill provide?

[00:13:50] Max Broad: Yeah, so the bill was essentially to, much as Kara laid out, ban fur sales in the district, you know, we did a landscape analysis and found that what we were right in the sweet spot. You know, Kara talks about how there's either too much or too little fur being sold. We had just a handful of stores that still sell fur in dc so.

Enough to say there's need for a bill, but not so much that we would risk any loss of jobs. There are no Furriers left in DC you know? No, no. Stores that exclusively sell fur.

[00:14:19] Mariann Sullivan: Was it pretty much exactly the same as the ones in Massachusetts, did it include fair trim? Were there exceptions?

[00:14:27] Max Broad: Yes. Yeah, it was the same. There were two ex exceptions, essentially to religious uses or nonprofit and scientific uses, which is important 'cause we have like the Smithsonian institutions here.

But you know, we were able to work with the fantastic lawyers at both the Animal Policy Alliance and Humane Society of the United States, Humane World now.

[00:14:48] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I can never remember that new name.

[00:14:49] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, same. Yeah, I can't. Well, and speaking of them, when did the Animal Policy Alliance enter the picture and what kind of support did they offer?

[00:14:59] Max Broad: Animal Policy Alliance came in, I guess a couple years after we had first had conversations about the bill and, you know, they've been instrumental in doing legislative analysis, advocacy support just in terms of, you know, what tools we can use to advocate and then also looking for funders to help support campaigns like this.

[00:15:18] Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

[00:15:18] Mariann Sullivan: So I understand that you focused a lot and sought the support of the quote unquote sustainable fashion community. I'm not even sure exactly what that is. Can you tell us about who you were talking to and what some of the ups and downs were with that relationship?

[00:15:34] Max Broad: Yeah. You know, I, when the bill was introduced, it had 10 of 13 DC council members supporting it, so it was looking really strong. And I thought one of our key allies would be the sustainable fashion community. And so when I started reaching out to folks in that community, I was hearing a lot of crickets.

Right. Not a lot of strong response. And, so as I built relationships with stakeholders who are passionate about sustainable fashion, what I learned is that they have some reservations about these approaches, and this includes one of the chief tenants of sustainable fashion is moving away from plastics, great.

But where that came into conflict was the concern that less fur would mean more plastic. And this whole notion that fur is natural, I'm giving the quotes, which it's very much not. But you know, what I found was just arguing with folks about whether or not fur is natural or whether or not moving away from fur would mean more plastics, it wasn't successful.

You know, debating wasn't changing anybody's minds. And so I had to find other strategies to get through to folks and find ways to get people engaged on this issue.

[00:16:41] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I mean, it just seems surprising if people, you know, think of themselves as sustainable fashion advocates, that they don't know more about the horrific environmental implications of fur production. And also it's not like if you don't wear fur from animals, you are required to wear faux fur. You can wear anything you want. It's not like it has to be substituted for. So, were you shocked that they didn't know a little bit more about what some of the environmental consequences of fur production are, it just seems like they're as naive as anybody else and falling for industry talking points.

[00:17:15] Max Broad: That definitely felt like the case and they just seemed hyper-focused on being anti plastic, which, you know, is good, but felt a little myopic to me when we're talking about protecting animals and should animals be raised for luxury fashion. And so, you know, that's where we decided to put on a sustainable fashion show and, you know, just show, instead of debating whether or not fur is sustainable or not, let's just show what sustainable fashion looks like.

And, you know, we had three amazing designers, one who did art fashion, one who did totally secondhand fashion, and cause the sustainable fashion show was themed around metamorphosis and not just the metamorphosis of caterpillar to butterfly, but also the fashion industry into something more sustainable and humane.

[00:18:00] Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

[00:18:01] Max Broad: Her line was, the sustainable fashion line, from dress to manifest was all outfits that were demonstrating the metamorphosis of caterpillar to butterfly. Very cool. And then the, the keynote design Hendrix designs, used milkweed floss. And this is a special material that is, a lot of people don't know but milkweed is the only plant that monarch butterflies can use to lay their eggs.

[00:18:30] Mariann Sullivan: I did know that, but I sure didn't know you could wear it.

[00:18:33] Max Broad: Yeah, so it's cool. So you can, you can actually harvest fibers from the pod of the milkweed plant and you can harvest the fibers after the monarchs have migrated onwards.

[00:18:43] Mariann Sullivan: Wow.

[00:18:43] Max Broad: And when you harvest the fibers and use 'em in fashion, they're more heat resistant than down. So we were able to really demonstrate what sustainable and truly regenerative agriculture could look like at this fashion show.

[00:18:56] Jasmin Singer: Amazing.

[00:18:57] Mariann Sullivan: That sounds, did it make a big splash? Did,

[00:19:00] Max Broad: It was a hit. It was so great to see the sustainable fashion community come out in solidarity. I think it really won a lot of hearts and minds. And we were able to really promote our intersectional vision as an organization by featuring BIPOC designers local to the area. It was amazing.

The models were every different race, gender, body type, generation, even ability status. We structured the stage so that it could accommodate one of the models who was in a wheelchair. And so, you know, it was just like such a hit.

[00:19:31] Jasmin Singer: I emceed a gala here last fall for the Goodwill here in Rochester. And the theme was upcycle and it was all Goodwill materials being upcycled. And they brought in a lot of the kids in the community, both college and high school. And these kids had so much fun, you know, turning ties into dresses and things like that.

And it just sounds so much like what you just said. And the reason I bring this up is because these kids were into it. Like it was their ethos and it honestly gave me hope, and not a lot does these days. So I love it when you say that you had a fashion show. It makes me think of like, instead of flyering in Union Square with the, you know, farmed animal cruelty brochures, as I've done thousands of times, give someone a vegan cupcake.

It's kind of like the fur version of this. Let's show you what it could look like, and I love that. So after all of this success, Max, what happened?

[00:20:29] Max Broad: Hopefully we will hear from Kara about some of the wonderful success stories that they've had 'cause those are really inspiring. But we have not had a wonderful success story. We got hit with a sledgehammer, and essentially what happened is I got a phone call a few days after the November, 2024 election, from the council member who was responsible for moving the bill forward, saying that they were going to stop with the bill.

And essentially the concern was in a heavily democratic DC, they felt that we didn't wanna have a target on our back with any controversial bills as a new Republican government came into Congress and came into, you know, the federal government. As mentioned, you know, with DC not having statehood, we're a little bit more vulnerable.

So, you know, the merits of whether that's a valiant argument or not aside, it was a real hit. You know, this is something I was very personally invested in. I'm still really upset about it. You know, it's, it really hit home. You know.

[00:21:25] Mariann Sullivan: Forgive me for not being more knowledgeable about how DC functions, but does Congress have to, like, give permission to DC to pass a law or do they just think they would know about it and it would be frowned upon?

[00:21:39] Max Broad: The short answer is Congress has veto authority, right? So. If Congress doesn't do anything, the law goes into effect. If Congress says no, then the law gets repealed.

[00:21:50] Mariann Sullivan: I'm not sure, I think in general that Democrats are a lot better than Republicans on animal issues. That's certainly a grotesque exaggeration of the actual situation. But it sounds like for you in this situation, it did sound very partisan.

[00:22:05] Max Broad: Yeah. And it's not specifically about animal issues 'cause because you're right, there are issues that Democrats are not good on. There are issues that Republicans are good on when it comes to animal protection, but in this case, you know, republicans tend to be rather rabid in terms of meddling with DC interests.

And our elected leaders thought that it would be good to shy away from drawing any attention, which, you know, had real implications for our work.

[00:22:31] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. No, I mean, I kind of see their point of view. That's very, very upsetting though. Did anything good come out of the effort or are there gonna be next steps?

[00:22:39] Max Broad: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, we did a lot of public influence and just a big shout out to all my friends and fellow activists who collected hundreds of signatures supporting petitions and just raising awareness. What we're gonna do is we're gonna try and pass fur bills in surrounding jurisdictions, much as what Kara and the Fur Free Massachusetts folks have done as well.

[00:23:02] Mariann Sullivan: Cool.

[00:23:03] Jasmin Singer: Let's go to you, Conor. So we heard from Max and Kara about the help that they received from the Animal Policy Alliance. Can you talk a little bit more broadly about the kinds of things that the A PA can do for local groups who wanna get involved in policymaking?

[00:23:20] Conor Lamkin: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm part of the research team on The Humane League's public policy team, and that's just me and Hannah Truxell, who was on the first episode of this series. So from the research perspective, we can help draft legislation, do legislative analysis, do legal analysis, create fact sheets for public outreach and education, or one pagers for lobbyists. We can also mobilize The Humane League supporters, you know, send out action alerts on behalf of Animal Policy Alliance members. And we also, beyond just the research team and kind of mobilizing, we also provide grant opportunities, when funding permits, to all of our Animal Policy Alliance members. And I think the most invaluable thing that the Animal Policy Alliance brings to all of its members is just the ability to network and collaborate with one another. We have monthly meetings where anyone who's a member can attend. We talk about successes, lessons learned, and there's so much that you can learn from a successful campaign. But there's also so much you can learn from an unsuccessful campaign and the obstacles that each member goes through. And while jurisdictions differ, you know, there's things that translate and so we help provide that guidance. But I think that networking and ability to collaborate and speak and communicate with one another is just the best part of the Animal Policy Alliance.

[00:24:45] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, that makes total sense. And fortunately anybody hearing Max's story will think, well, that's not gonna happen to us because he's dealing with a very singular kind of problem. I know a lot probably depends on what jurisdiction you're in, even though people can learn from each other, there are limitations and a lot depends on which issue you're going after I, I'm sure the attitudes and the opposition are different on them, but specifically, what's your feeling about state versus county versus local as the best place to go?

I think Massachusetts is just such a great example of showing local initiatives, really building that momentum. You know, you hear some stories of people, their first campaigns, they're really successful. I was just listening to the foie gras episode that just came out, with Natalie saying, you know, in three weeks of her first pet shop bill, it was introduced and it was passed, and then the next one took three years. So, you know, it differs. But I do see the benefit and Massachusetts being such a great example of being able to kind of create a ripple effect. You know, one county or locality passes a bill and then maybe the neighboring one does as well, and then that ripple effect, it just continues to kind of snowball and you can point to, it's persuasive to other city council members and then to eventually state legislators to see this is what constituents want. You see it building. Let's do it at the state level. So I think there's different tactics, but I do see the benefit of starting locally and building from there.

Yeah. And I, I think it's just so crucial informing legislators that they're not out on this huge limb when they support animal protection legislation. I mean, they just hear the word PETA and they think everybody will think I'm crazy. And they have to really be taught that most people agree with this, and those are the people who vote for them.

I, I bet Kara that the town hall meeting or the town meetings. Town meetings, yeah. Sorry. I'm so used to listening to the news and listening to town hall meetings. I got confused. Are really useful in making it clear that though not everybody's on the same side, not everybody's against you either. And I think a lot of legislators think that it's just a bunch of crazy activists.

[00:26:58] Kara Holmquist: I think after they've gone through this with advocates on an animal protection issue, they really, you know, we try with all the resources that we have available through us and other groups, you know, really try to present a very logical argument with all the data as,

[00:27:13] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

[00:27:13] Kara Holmquist: you know, talking about the environmental, talking about the public health, really making a good case. And, you know, just talking about the momentum on this issue. We've been, you know, really fortunate that they've been very receptive and seem to take everybody seriously. And we've had, as I mentioned, advocates from- Brookline. There was, a kid, and he was in ninth grade. He took this on.

We've had, you know, we've had really young people and more experienced people, but we've had the whole range and everybody's been really well received.

[00:27:47] Mariann Sullivan: So, Conor, you mentioned Hannah Truxell was here last week, and one of the things that she mentioned that you do at the APA is provide legal advice in crafting bills and many of the people who are doing this kind of work are, I'm sure not lawyers. Cause you know, it wouldn't be just lawyers who care about animals and they don't necessarily have easy access to lawyers who are specifically experienced in passing local legislation.

I know better than anybody else that lawyers are very specialized and just 'cause you have a lawyer on your side doesn't mean they know anything. I know this is one of the areas that the APA is designed to address, but even for you guys, this must be really hard. You're working at a national level, and I mean, not on federal stuff, but all over the country and all sorts of different jurisdictions. I would assume there's a lot of challenges in figuring out all the varied and I'm sure Byzantine requirements for legislation in different jurisdictions. Am I right? And, maybe not so much in this issue. Uh, I don't know. But am I right about that? And how do you manage that? Do you have a huge staff of lawyers?

[00:28:48] Conor Lamkin: You're absolutely right. First off, we don't have a huge staff of lawyers. Our research team is just Hannah and I at the moment, so there's just two of us here on the research team. We both have our law degrees. We both focused in animal law, so it's just us two. But I think that's another great resource that we provide.

Being the research team of the Animal Policy Alliance is a lot of these groups, yeah, might not have that experience, but also might not have that time. And we are only devoted to our Animal Policy Alliance members. We do some coalition work with other national organizations, but The Humane League, we do not run our own policy campaigns.

So we are able to dedicate the time to, you know, if Max comes to us asking to help in drafting a bill in DC, I can dedicate as much time as I need to to learning about DC's legislative process, jurisdictional, doing power mapping, legislative landscape analysis, political analysis, and it's just, I'm dedicated to that and that's all I'm working on.

Maybe a couple other issues for other APA members at the same time, but we are here working for our Animal Policy Alliance members and that's what we provide.

[00:30:00] Jasmin Singer: Conor, were there any particular considerations regarding fur, either positive or negative, that you don't run into in other subject areas, particularly food related ones?

[00:30:13] Conor Lamkin: Yeah. I think, you know, we're dealing with a luxury fashion product or just, you know, clothing, things like that a lot of the time. So there are the exceptions that we've written in for used fur, used products. That's something that obviously you don't really see in any other farmed animal issues. But, it's similar in writing exceptions for cultural and religious purposes. There are certain things within animal agriculture where that does come into play, especially when we're talking about perhaps a live slaughter ban, things like that. Live markets. So it's similar in that you need to kind of work with the communities, have those conversations, bring a multitude of stakeholders to the table to discuss how the bill should be crafted and to take in all considerations of communities that will actually be affected.

[00:31:07] Jasmin Singer: Mm.

[00:31:07] Conor Lamkin: So it's very similar in that sense, but there are a few differences with it not being a food product rather than, you know, a clothing product.

[00:31:15] Mariann Sullivan: I understand that the case studies will be made available to those who are undertaking future efforts. Can you just tell us a little bit about that? What they'll look like and how they'll be helpful?

[00:31:24] Conor Lamkin: Yeah, absolutely. So we have authored a case study for fur sales bans and we interviewed, Hannah and I on the research team, interviewed Kara. We also interviewed a couple other advocates, Nirva Patel, who is the executive director at Harvard's Animal Law and Policy Program. And we also interviewed Liza from Fur Free Massachusetts as well. So we wanted to create kind of like lessons learned, obstacles from these successes, to pass on to other advocates. It'll cover everything from the introduction and drafting the legislation to enforcement, implementation, and what's next. It's really kind of a deep dive into, and this one covers eight different so it's a long one, but there's so much that we've learned. And honestly, interviewing Kara, she wasn't an Animal Policy Alliance member before that interview, and we met with her, we did the interview. Hannah and I got off the call. We both looked at each other and we're like, we have got to get them in the Animal Policy Alliance. And I think maybe within a couple weeks you were a part of it.

You know, you filled out the application and now a valuable member of our alliance. So it's pretty incredible what these interviews can do that we're learning from other advocates and what we can pass on to future advocates for their own campaigns.

[00:32:52] Jasmin Singer: That's so inspiring. It looks like there is now an effort to obtain a statewide ban. Are you involved in that as well? And do you see that as an important trajectory? Like going from a series of local successes to a statewide law?

[00:33:10] Conor Lamkin: Absolutely. I mean, we defer to our APA members on their own campaigns, their communities, they know them best. So if you know Kara working on the state one, if we can mobilize our supporters, if we can create fact sheets or resources, anything that the Massachusetts groups need, we are happy to help. And yes, this trajectory of building that momentum to a state level ban is so important. And I'll also plug that this year Animal Welfare Institute has reintroduced the Mink Virus Act at the federal level. That's been introduced before, it hasn't moved. We're not certain it's gonna move this session with the current makeup of Congress, but we're also looking at banning mink farming at the federal level.

So these local initiatives that can lead to state bans

[00:33:58] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

can

[00:33:59] Conor Lamkin: help build to a federal ban.

[00:34:01] Mariann Sullivan: Wow.

[00:34:01] Conor Lamkin: We're excited about engaging APA members and the Humane League supporters, not only in their state and localities, but potentially on a federal ban as well.

[00:34:12] Mariann Sullivan: I mean, as dysfunctional as congress may be, it's gotta affect legislators when they see things happening at the local or state level you know, make them aware that this is an issue that people might care about, that probably won't get them into too much hot water with the powers that be. Like it's, you know, I think legislators think of this as a dangerous issue and it's actually probably a really safe issue in a lot of ways.

[00:34:38] Conor Lamkin: Absolutely. I think we're seeing real time right now too, the economic collapse of this industry. We don't have a ton of data out there because the industry's pretty unregulated from federal agencies, specifically the USDA, but we do have numbers that show a 50% decline in mink fur farms since 2017, and we're seeing, I think it's 68% decline in the mink fur trade value in the us.

So we're just seeing the collapse of this industry. So it's perfect timing to be bringing these campaigns.

[00:35:13] Mariann Sullivan: It might explain a little bit of what Kara was saying too, about how they didn't, except in a few instances they didn't really show up. ' Cause it's expensive to show up. I mean, they have to pay these people nobody's volunteering to do work with for the fur industry like they are on the animal side.

[00:35:27] Jasmin Singer: Mariann, how does it feel for you to hear all of this? Thinking back to your early days as an animal activist in the nineties, going every week to those fur protests, it's changed a lot.

[00:35:39] Mariann Sullivan: This is the, uh, Mariann you're really old part of the interview. Yeah. No, things have changed a lot. They really have.

That is how I got started. It was a fur store right down the street from me in New York City, and every week I would go to the protest. There were like five of us.

[00:35:54] Jasmin Singer: It's not a Mariann, you're really old moment. It's a, like, we don't get to really notice this type of trajectory that often. I remember doing those circus protests, those giant ones, and then they,

[00:36:07] Mariann Sullivan: Now they're not there

[00:36:08] Jasmin Singer: they're not there anymore. And so I'm, I'm trying to give you like a little sprinkle of hope.

[00:36:13] Mariann Sullivan: I agree. I was among the people on 34th Street among all the circus fans when they would march the elephants across to Madison Square Garden and it just doesn't seem that long ago. Now it's all gone so while you think we're not getting anywhere. All you have to do is listen to this interview and you'll know actually we're not getting everything we want, but we are getting some things.

But speaking of that, I think one of you alluded to this, but I'd like to go into it a little bit more. So this question is really for any of you who have thoughts to offer, as we all know, animals are suffering everywhere in about a gazillion different ways. Most of it is no worse than what's happening to animals on fur farms.

And if you're doing vegan advocacy, you can kind of approach all of that from a big picture analysis. We're just gonna cut it all out. But when you're doing policy work, it's would hard be hard to get a law passed saying everybody has to be vegan in every way from now on, you have to pick and choose your issues.

So why fur?

[00:37:08] Max Broad: Yeah, in terms of the question of why fur like, well, one, you know, we had somebody who was interested in it, but two is that, as Connor mentions, there's a real trajectory on ending this industry and liberating the animals who are currently suffering by the millions at the hands of vanity fashion brands.

So, you know, fur policy can play a real role in expediting that process.

[00:37:31] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. It's really important to find an industry that is struggling. And one thing I, I think is powerful about fur as well. I last week we spoke about foie gras also like hugely important, but most people don't know what foie gras is and have never eaten it, at least in The States. Fur, people really know what it is.

They know it's bad or some of them do and they can learn that as well. You know, people are learning. People might think foie gras, well, you know, that doesn't have anything to do with me. But, fur most people have worn it. So I

[00:38:01] Max Broad: And you're right, Mariann. You know most people, what's nice, unlike food issues, most people don't wear fur. And so it's easy for them to get on board. They don't have to be defensive about it. They're just like, yeah, why would anybody buy that? That's outlandish.

[00:38:15] Jasmin Singer: By the way, Max, I feel like our little hopeful moment a few minutes ago was also a virtual hug for you.

[00:38:22] Max Broad: Thank you.

[00:38:23] Jasmin Singer: that it's been challenging, but I just really think that even the challenge that you were describing before is part of a bigger success story that is already happening. So. Yeah.

[00:38:35] Max Broad: Jasmin. Thanks. Yeah. You know, I was in a hole for a couple months. I gotta be honest. But, you know, I'm back and I'm ready to fight and like, this is not over, you know? This is not over.

[00:38:45] Mariann Sullivan: And I, I mean, you cannot ignore the fact that just in doing the advocacy, you have accomplished a lot. You didn't accomplish everything you wanted to, but you've taken steps there. I mean, if we don't think like that, we'll all just have to go home.

'Cause I mean, that's the not everything succeeds easily in this world.

[00:39:04] Max Broad: No, you're right. You're right. Policy is unpredictable. And like elections too, you know, it's a binary, but there are outcomes besides who wins the election or whether the policy passes in terms of education, in terms of inserting the topic into the public agenda.

And it means a lot.

[00:39:21] Jasmin Singer: Kara, I wanna go to you. I would love to know your answer to why fur, but in addition to that, in your experience advocating for this issue, how much have you found that people know about what animals raised for fur actually go through? Like, do they just know it's bad or do they, kind of need to be educated and how do you do that?

[00:39:43] Kara Holmquist: I think people have a general sense that it's bad. You know, in the State House or in town halls, I think it's been helpful to bring some of the other aspects of it where people might not be aware of- the wastewater issues, the tanning process, and the chemicals. Liza's first effort was right after Covid or dur, it was really still during Covid. So being able to talk about how that was being mutated in farmed animals I think really helped and, and brought a whole new argument to that. So I do think there's a sense that it's bad, but sort of rounding it out with all those other reasons too. I think some of those are newer to people, and I think that that really has helped.

[00:40:32] Jasmin Singer: We need some kind of a campaign linking microplastics to fur. I think just whatever we can do in that realm.

[00:40:41] Mariann Sullivan: Well all can, I mean, but do you think that, I'm trying to make myself feel better. I think, but that people just need a little protection from just admitting that they actually care about the animals. So they have to have this other issue just to like shore themselves up and not look sentimental.

'Cause why, why are the animals not a good enough reason? I mean, if people really know what these animals are going through, and most people actually really care about animals. I mean, not everybody, that's for sure. But a lot of people really do like, one of the main problems I think that we have is that it's hard to show people what is happening to these animals 'cause it's so bad they refuse to look at it or they can't bear to look at it. And yet

[00:41:22] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:23] Mariann Sullivan: it does seem like whenever you add another issue, an environmental issue or something, it sort of legitimizes it for people, tell me I'm right and that they actually care.

[00:41:33] Conor Lamkin: No, absolutely. I think, you know, that only bolsters your argument if you can bring in, you know, the environmental issue, the public health issue. But I will share a story that I learned in conducting these interviews for this case study. Nirva, who I mentioned earlier, one of the advocates

[00:41:49] Mariann Sullivan: I should add that she has been on the podcast,

[00:41:51] Conor Lamkin: amazing.

[00:41:52] Mariann Sullivan: she started at Harvard, and she talked a lot about her Jainism, but she also talked about her efforts on this campaign.

[00:41:58] Conor Lamkin: Awesome. Yeah, she's incredible. And learning from her, she knew that there could maybe be a way to resonate with dog lovers because sometimes when you look at the images of these fur bearing animals in these tiny cages, they look like little puppies or they may look like something you would see on a puppy mill. So something that she did was getting vaccination records from her local town and getting the information of who has a dog that's been vaccinated, and sending outreach to those people to really kind of get the dog lovers on this side and be like, look what's happening to these animals in these conditions, living on these fur farms, you need to support a ban on fur sales.

And I just thought that was, you know, so creative and a, that's something I love about policy work is we do get to flex our creativity a bit, which is really fun.

[00:42:50] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I think I mentioned when we were doing the foie gras episode, that, I'm fuzzy on the details, but many, many years ago when there were many campaigns against Hudson Valley Foie Gras, there was an organization that specifically started focusing on the treatment of the farm workers because it was just really hard to get people to care that much about the birds.

So I think that that's really cool what you just said. And Conor, when it comes to fur bans, obviously people can just go elsewhere to get fur if they want to. So why is it never the less valuable?

[00:43:28] Conor Lamkin: Well, because you're creating frameworks in local governments that allow for more animal protection laws to be passed. You know, you never know what one flyer or fact sheet can do for someone in the public who gets it. You know, if you're doing outreach to an individual person, that can spark a new advocate in our movement who then wants to create policy change themselves.

So while it may seem like just one small issue, it's such a building block to really build up the framework of the legal system and the jurisdiction. And to build up what you can build upon for more and future animal protection measures that are a lot more impactful. You know, unfortunately, it's the game we play in policy and through the legislative process that we have to sometimes move very slowly, a lot slower than I think any of us want to. But that's just the nature of it. So it's building blocks and you never know what advocate you're gonna spark to join our movement and make real meaningful change.

[00:44:31] Mariann Sullivan: One of the big bugaboos of the animal rights movement, as everybody knows, has always been the fear. Not just that it moves slowly, but that one issue campaigns or welfare campaigns will be a dead end, that people will think, oh, everything's fixed now. And so there are people who have, you know, said, we shouldn't do that.

You know, we should just fight for vegan advocacy. But that has turned out to be more difficult than we had originally anticipated. Do you get that kind of argument? Are people still saying that? And is it getting in the way of finding people who will advocate for this?

Because, you know, these are usually the diehard animal advocates, who feel very strongly and might be worried that, oh, if you ban fur, then

[00:45:12] Jasmin Singer: Can I take objection to the diehard animal advocates part though because I, I am a diehard animal advocate.

[00:45:20] Mariann Sullivan: that these

[00:45:20] Jasmin Singer: I,

[00:45:20] Mariann Sullivan: die hard animal

[00:45:21] Jasmin Singer: okay. Okay.

[00:45:22] Mariann Sullivan: they, if they believe that they are die hard animal advocates.

[00:45:26] Jasmin Singer: I see. Okay. Thank you for clarifying. We may continue with the episode now.

[00:45:30] Mariann Sullivan: all die hard.

[00:45:31] Jasmin Singer: Okay.

[00:45:32] Mariann Sullivan: I don't even know what, where did that expression even come from? Die

[00:45:34] Jasmin Singer: Probably the movie, I don't know.

[00:45:37] Conor Lamkin: Yeah, I think, you know, there's always that kind of division of are you a welfarist or an abolitionist? And I do think everyone in this movement is an abolitionist. We all want animal liberation. You know? That's what, and

[00:45:53] Mariann Sullivan: I'm not an abolitionist.

[00:45:54] Conor Lamkin: Yeah, absolutely. We all want animal liberation for all animals, non-human and human alike.

And so that division is just, I think, more of the strategy of how do we get there? You know? Yes, it would be great to just launch a ban on factory farming at the federal level, but that's not gonna fly. You know, we are trying to get these lower hanging fruit, I guess you could call it, to really build that momentum.

But like I mentioned before, that's just the nature of working within the legislature and it's unfortunate, but that's what we have to do and that's what we are working towards. Total abolition and liberation, you know, so.

[00:46:37] Mariann Sullivan: think that putting it that way is so important. Just clarifying that we all have the same goals.

[00:46:41] Conor Lamkin: Yep.

[00:46:42] Mariann Sullivan: people are taking different paths to try to get there.

[00:46:45] Conor Lamkin: Yep.

[00:46:46] Jasmin Singer: So, so if people are listening to this right now and they've been looking for a way to get involved with a new campaign to change the world for animals, what advice would you have for them either specifically getting involved with your work or in their own communities? I'd love to hear from whoever wants to take that.

[00:47:04] Kara Holmquist: I've been so impressed and have gotten to know so many great people in communities that I didn't know before. As I mentioned, a ninth grader, like Nirva, like so many people. And folks, some of them had no experience doing anything with a policy level, but just decided to take it on.

And I feel like the questions sometimes I get, or the asks are like, can the MSPCA do something about this? Why isn't, you know, and I'm just, you know. I am not gonna be as effective going into a town meeting or a city hall or city council meeting as I'm there to help provide background, get other people from that community there. But they wanna hear from their community members. And I think I just always try to emphasize how much of an impact one individual can have who decides to take something like this on. It's just really want to empower people to take these on and have the assistance from us, the Humane League, Humane World for Animals has helped in Massachusetts too, to tap into all of those resources. But the really having that person in that community is so valuable. And then strategizing and finding the, the right city counselor or the right town meeting member or the people who kind of know the government a little bit or have a position or something that is the animal person, you know, and will help walk people through that to figure out what will work best and then strategize around- how do we wanna get this through? What's worked in other issues? And you know, I always do keep in mind, as I mentioned before, sort of, you know, how close to the vest do we wanna keep something? And does that make sense given the type of government that it's in and sort of just all that kind of strategy.

But I just, I hope people feel empowered to take these on because it's so possible. And we've just seen amazing things from advocates in Massachusetts and I'm just so grateful for them.

[00:48:56] Jasmin Singer: I love that. And how can people find out more about your work, Kara?

[00:49:01] Kara Holmquist: For the MSPCA, mspca.org/advocacy there is a hyperlink on there that says local legislation. And under there we have a bunch of advocate spotlights on this issue and different issues. So we've really tried to capture what works and what hasn't worked and provide a bunch of models for different issues.

'Cause we've done, you know, the traveling wild animal acts, the pet shop ban, there's a lot of people doing restrictions on anticoagulant rodenticides now and things. So, so we try to capture what has worked in these different scenarios. So I think that's a really good resource. And again, Fur Free MA. Is the Fur Free Massachusetts group too, so either Liza or me, we'd be happy to talk to anybody who's interested in starting one in Massachusetts, or we're happy to share more on what has worked in Massachusetts that could be applicable to other places.

[00:49:52] Jasmin Singer: Love it. Amazing. Max, turning to you, same two questions. What advice would you have for someone who wants to get involved? And then tell us how we can stay on top of your efforts.

[00:50:02] Max Broad: Well, you know, as Margaret Mead said, uh, never doubt that a small group of concerned citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. So, you know, speak up, get active in the political process. If there's something that you're passionate about as an individual, just look at what happened in Massachusetts where all these people in all these different cities stood up and they spoke up for banning fur, and they made it a reality.

And even if it doesn't succeed, you know, you're still doing great advocacy,

So, yeah. Get active. Right?

[00:50:31] Jasmin Singer: Such

[00:50:31] Max Broad: Um,

[00:50:32] Jasmin Singer: too.

[00:50:33] Max Broad: powerful. And it's true.

So as far as DC Voters for Animals, check us out DCvfa.com. You can see us on Instagram, Facebook, blue Sky, LinkedIn. You know, we're working on campaigns now, also on dealing with the harmful effects of anticoagulant rodenticide, and then also looking at more climate friendly food procurement in DC. How we can shift to more plant forward and planet forward dining.

[00:51:01] Jasmin Singer: I love it. I love that way of putting it too. And Conor, same two questions for you. Advice for people who wanna get involved and any places we can stalk you online. That didn't sound right. Let's put that more nicely. How can we continue to be inspired by your work in the interwebs?

[00:51:19] Conor Lamkin: I mean, I again echo everything Kara and Max said about one person can make a huge difference and you know, can really spark change in their own community. But also there are a lot of people in other states, other areas who have worked on this who may be more experts, so to speak, in the topic or the issue area or just the process.

But we're out here and we wanna help you. So reach out, see if you've got a local group in your community, in your state that you can work with, or reach out to a national organization that might be able to assist. You can make a difference and you can do this work. And if you want to, you know, stay at home and take actions on legislative or potentially corporate campaigns, please go to thehumaneleague.org.

We've got our Fast Action Network. You can do that from your home. You don't have to, you know, go out and do anything. It's super great. And also check out theanimalpolicyalliance.org. If you're part of a group that maybe hasn't done farmed animal policy work or policy work, but you're interested, fill out our contact form.

We'd love to talk to you and see how we can get you started. Or if you're just a passionate advocate who wants to maybe start their own group, please contact us and we can maybe help you get started.

[00:52:36] Jasmin Singer: Love it. Yeah, so great. Max Broad, Kara Holmquist and Conor Lampkin, thank you all so much for all that you're doing to change the world for animals. It's just truly inspiring. I'm inspired by all of you and grateful that you are so generous with your resources and your time today.

And we hope that you'll stick on for our flock bonus content and stay in touch with us. Keep us posted on your future efforts. Thank you.

[00:53:03] Conor Lamkin: Thank you.

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