The Hen Report: “Learning what’s really going on is a way not to give up” – Fighting for Animals in Challenging Times

[00:00:10] Jasmin Singer: And this week we're here with a Hen Report. Every activist needs to know the news and we're here to deliver it. They wanna know what's happening to animals and how that fits into the rest of the world, and we try to keep you up with at least some of what's happening with animals and with animal activism and, Mariann, I know this is something that is very, very close to your heart.

[00:00:33] Mariann Sullivan: I'm kind of a news junkie, so I just assume everybody else is too, which isn't to say that we could possibly cover all the news, but you know, we try to like come up with stuff that other people are reporting on and reliable outfits are reporting on and let people know about it. 'Cause it's really hard to follow it all.

It's not like there's one place where you can collect all the news about. It's not really, you know, I, I was thinking before, I'm not sure our beat is animal rights. Our beat is animal activism. Both what animal activists are doing. We wanna report on that. And also what are the stories out in the world that people who wanna do animal activism, people who just wanna talk about animals to other people, which is animal activism, after all a form of it, should be up on, so that they can horrify everybody. And there's plenty. There's just plenty of that.

[00:01:22] Jasmin Singer: So you said you are a, oh wait. Let me actually say that we are going to have someone drop in during our Hen Report today, which is a little unusual for our Hen Reports, but she might just drop in in the middle of us talking, which I think is awesome. We're just gonna go with it. But just know we might have a visitor.

[00:01:44] Mariann Sullivan: We're not gonna say who it is?

[00:01:46] Jasmin Singer: Oh, yeah. Now I'm worried that people are gonna think it's Tiny Chef and they'll inevitably be disappointed.

[00:01:52] Mariann Sullivan: Oh, poor Kathy. She's important too!

[00:01:55] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. No, it's, Kathy Stevens from Catskill Animal Sanctuary, who has definitely been on the show in the past. She has some big news on a personal level that she's gonna be sharing. But also I think we're just gonna be chatting.

Alright, so you were talking to me recently. You mentioned you are a news junkie. Don't I know it? You were talking about the dis.

[00:02:15] Mariann Sullivan: I do sometimes go on total news fasts. I did that like at the beginning of the administration, for I don't know, probably six weeks, two months, and then I had the flu in there too. I just watch no news whatsoever, but

[00:02:27] Jasmin Singer: I know now it's all news all the time. You know, when I'm, when I'm working at, at the radio station, like we ha we always have the, the TV on, on mute. Like, put on M-S-N-B-C on mute. I feel like that's you right now. I can imagine you with multiple TVs all around you.

[00:02:42] Mariann Sullivan: Well, it's, not like I watch real news. I watch like pundits and, have to switch off among them because, 'cause like I get annoyed

[00:02:49] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, well you're, you,

[00:02:51] Mariann Sullivan: yeah.

[00:02:51] Jasmin Singer: get annoyed fast. But I, you were talking to me about how there's a disturbing parallel between the way the immigration and customs enforcement op ICE operates and the meat industry.

[00:03:03] Mariann Sullivan: Well, this kind of occurred to me when I was thinking of doing this because every week talk about stuff and it's in the context of this, the crisis going on around us that, you know, some people would say, I think, how can we think about animals? I mean, not our audience, but when, when all this is going on, animals always have to wait. And it just feels like it's all one piece to me in so many ways. And of course, we can't betray the animals because you never know. Maybe this will be a time of, of like extraordinary change. Sometimes crises leads to change and we have to be there to fight for the animals. But also like I imagine we're all kind of worried about other things going on in the world, which, you know, is insane. And I, you know, I don't wanna start reporting on that, but it did, it did occur to me like this story with the, with ICE agents and, and shipping these people and this horrible video from people being shipped to this gulag in, in El Salvador. And, you know, they're being bent over like it was just so, well,

[00:04:02] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:04:02] Mariann Sullivan: They're treating them like animals.

[00:04:04] Jasmin Singer: In both. Yeah, in both systems. But there, there are those who believe in what they're doing and you know, other people are in it for the money or the, or the power, I guess.

[00:04:14] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I mean, I think that there are, you, you gotta figure that all these ice agents and all the people who work in the meat industry aren't monsters. Maybe they are, I don't know. They, they look like monsters when we look at them, but, you know, people are people and they do things for different reason.

And some people probably truly believe, you know, like the, like people in in the meat industry, they think they're feeding the world. They say it all the time. I'm sure they think it, they don't recognize that people could eat other things and so they think it's worth it even though it's hard. And I'm sure there are ice agents like that too, who just think these are terrible, terrible human beings.

Even though of course they haven't, they haven't had any due process and we don't actually know which ones are terrible and which ones are not, and or anything else about them. I mean obviously as you pointed out, there's a lot of corruption here. People are corrupted, you know, there's money to be made. I. Easy to corrupt the people working in the meat industry because they're desperate. But I think for most people it's kind of a combination

[00:05:11] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:05:12] Mariann Sullivan: people, people believe what they wanna believe and you know, when they can make money at something, whether they, either because they're desperate or because the money's good or whatever, they will believe it's a good thing to do.

There are probably a few of them in, in both that are kind of in it, at least partly for the sadism.

But you know,

[00:05:27] Jasmin Singer: Well, there's another commonality. They're all about breaking up families, whether it's slaughtering animals or the work that ICE is doing. So.

[00:05:40] Mariann Sullivan: And the other thing that I think is true of both systems is that the brutality has to be done by the people on the ground, the people who are making the least money of all of them. And it's the people in charge, whether it's the politicians on the, um, the deportation side or the, or the meat industry executives who just can pretend it's all for the best and we have to do this and, and not, not feel at all responsible for the cruelty.

I actually think, you know, we're, we're doing a great job, so always the really hardest burden of, of the ugliness and the guilt and the need to assuage the guilt falls on the workers.

[00:06:23] Jasmin Singer: Uh, well, part of what.

[00:06:26] Mariann Sullivan: there's, you know, everything I say, I feel like I'm leaving out the nuance on the other side. This is a really hard topic to talk about, but like having talked about it, I think it, it feels even stronger.

[00:06:37] Jasmin Singer: And part of what makes this moment so terrifying, this moment in the news cycle, this moment in the administration, this moment in the world, this moment in democracy, democracy's demise, is that it's not just what's, what's happening. But it's how easy it is for people to look away and, and I think that that is something we're certainly used to as animal activists.

The suffering is sometimes right in front of us, lit, literally sometimes. Or maybe it's on the news or in our neighborhoods or I, I don't know. For some people it might be in the mirror, yet people are so quick to turn away and not, not out of malice necessarily, but out of habit, right, or comfort or fear.

[00:07:21] Mariann Sullivan: that we're, I, I think that we're very, very vulnerable too. To the despair that is caused by that reality that we know so much about what's going on. And we try to tell people, and even people we love look away and, and you know, that it takes a lot to keep going in the face of that and to see people do that.

And, and so when something else happens like this that rings those same bells of people just looking away from suffering, we know better than others that, uh, yeah, that's what people do.

[00:07:55] Jasmin Singer: Well, I think that for animal activists, that's what makes our fear sharper

[00:08:02] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah,

[00:08:02] Jasmin Singer: Be because we know how good people are at at ignoring pain that isn't theirs and, and we know how easily it could just become background noise.

[00:08:14] Mariann Sullivan: We also know that there are heroes and we have to find them. We have to keep looking for them. We have to find them. People are doing the right thing. And you know, in this story there is as well.

[00:08:24] Jasmin Singer: So something that,

[00:08:26] Mariann Sullivan: get, I mean, I, I feel myself tempted to get into like, talking about all the details of, of what's going on in immigration and, you know, we wanna, stick to the animals. But I do wanna like reiterate something I

[00:08:38] Jasmin Singer: yeah.

[00:08:38] Mariann Sullivan: last week. Was it last week or the week before

[00:08:41] Jasmin Singer: Uh.

[00:08:42] Mariann Sullivan: I was very excited that one of our listeners wrote back to us. It was like when I said that we have to start explaining to people that, if they believe in God, and they believe in an all powerful and ever living God and they believe that Hell exists, which you know, are things that a lot of people believe in, then they're clearly going to hell.

[00:09:00] Jasmin Singer: my God, we're doing it again.

[00:09:02] Mariann Sullivan: I say this, you like,

[00:09:03] Jasmin Singer: I don't know because it scares me.

[00:09:06] Mariann Sullivan: Because I'm not saying people are going to hell 'cause I don't believe in that. But if you believe in that, how do you avoid the conclusion

[00:09:13] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:13] Mariann Sullivan: mean, assuming that, you know, you know, some people don't know that animals, you know, are real or have, have actual lives.

Fewer and fewer and fewer people can get away with believing that. And some people don't know what we do to them, but

[00:09:30] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:09:30] Mariann Sullivan: you know. They're lying dead on your plate, so you gotta know something bad happened to them. I don't see any way to avoid that conclusion in any way. A longtime beloved listener wrote in, I, I don't have permission to say who it was, so I won't, um, and said she had had a conversation with a number of clergy people who she knows who she's

[00:09:48] Jasmin Singer: I won't, I won't say her name either, but when you go to the beach, you get this condition, you get very. There's, there's sand all over. You continue.

[00:10:01] Mariann Sullivan: That was so pathetic.

[00:10:04] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I know it was, someone laughed.

[00:10:07] Mariann Sullivan: anyway, uh. And she didn't, she wouldn't say that she had like a totally satisfying conversation. She said they were still very good at deflecting it, but it just made me so happy to think that that conversation was, had as a result of, uh, as a result of something I said, or at least partially as a result of something I said on the podcast.

And it made me think more about the fact, you know, I was brought up in the church, in Catholicism and sin, I think sin is a better. Is a better word for meat eating, especially if we're talking about it in the context of religion. 'cause I think most of us think of, or at least I do think of harm in kind of in utilitarian terms.

And I think people let themselves off the hook in utilitarian terms saying, well, what I do doesn't matter, you know, like there are literally billions of animals being killed in factory farms. And I, the tiny bit I contributed doesn't do any harm. But if you think of it as sin, it's different. That's not the only calculation you make determining whether you're, committing a sin. A sin is, is, is a sin. It's wrong. it doesn't matter how you count the harm, the harm is to yourself

and I guess for people who believe to your relationship with God. so yeah, it's important to think about what harm it causes, but there's harm regardless.

And it's about what's right and what's wrong.

[00:11:30] Jasmin Singer: I think that some people, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I grew up as a reformed Jew, we didn't really use the word sin despite it being

[00:11:38] Mariann Sullivan: it a lot

[00:11:39] Jasmin Singer: Yes, I.

[00:11:40] Mariann Sullivan: I mean, I didn't grow up in like a really harsh Catholic environment. It was relatively benign, but you know, sin was, sin was definitely a factor.

[00:11:46] Jasmin Singer: So what? So I believe that some people talk about sin as what separates you from God. And when you participate in violence, especially violence, that's unnecessary. I don't know what violence wouldn't be, but, uh.

[00:12:01] Mariann Sullivan: self-defense, I mean this.

[00:12:02] Jasmin Singer: Sure. So that separation grows. And even, even if you don't see it, even if the system makes it easy not to see it.

So it's not necessarily about, I don't know, tallying up harm to justify a habit. It's about kind of recognizing that you're part of this whole system that is based on sin.

[00:12:25] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. The, the analogy I always make, and I know I've said this before, but you know what the hell, it's to watching child pornography.

[00:12:32] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:33] Mariann Sullivan: like if you watch child pornography, you are probably not expanding the amount of child pornography that's being produced. Like it's a huge, huge industry and by you just watching it, especially even if you don't even pay for it, you know it's not gonna make difference to the amount of harm done. But it's a sin.

[00:12:52] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:55] Mariann Sullivan: who wouldn't say it's a sin?

[00:12:57] Jasmin Singer: Well, I think that a real sin is this article

[00:13:02] Mariann Sullivan: to draw the analogy, eating meat is the same.

[00:13:05] Jasmin Singer: and, and so is writing about meat in the way that the New York Times did this past week. I am disgusted.

[00:13:14] Mariann Sullivan: This is the worst, the worst article I've ever

[00:13:16] Jasmin Singer: I am utterly disgusted.

[00:13:19] Mariann Sullivan: about it

[00:13:20] Jasmin Singer: You get to share our paint. This is called Meat is Back on Plates.

[00:13:25] Mariann Sullivan: on? Like who paid for this article?

[00:13:27] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, so the New York Times published this piece declaring that meat is back on plates and in politics, but honestly, what's.

What's striking about the article, other than the fact that the New York Times is unbelievably inconsistent, isn't that catchy headline it's what's missing because the article reads like it's a celebration of meat's, cultural comeback. It's it, it's packed with these anecdotes about tallow frosted wedding cakes and TikTok carnivores.

But in glorifying this resurgence it it hardly even engages with any of the consequences to what they say is this return, which I don't agree with at all.

[00:14:09] Mariann Sullivan: don't talk at all about like industry did some things that might have influenced this, uh, return.

[00:14:16] Jasmin Singer: yeah.

[00:14:17] Mariann Sullivan: there was some propaganda that that came out. I mean, it is true. I, I don't think it's a lie. You know, we all know like plant-based products are not doing as well as we had hoped they would.

And, and we all know that there's a lot of meat conversation in the, especially in the whole MAGA world, and like, they're all gonna die. Well, I guess we're

[00:14:36] Jasmin Singer: I, I like that. I like,

[00:14:38] Mariann Sullivan: But, uh, they don't,

[00:14:40] Jasmin Singer: but some of us.

[00:14:41] Mariann Sullivan: it just happened.

[00:14:43] Jasmin Singer: Right to, to write about a $104 billion meat industry without talking about who gets hurt and without talking about how, and without talking about like what you just said, the players involved in this boom is, is really just telling half the story. And that's not journalism, that's marketing.

And so this should have had a marketing disclaimer at the top of it.

[00:15:10] Mariann Sullivan: should have had to pay for it,

[00:15:11] Jasmin Singer: They probably did. Yeah. I am so tired of shitty reporting. I really am. Well, anyway, this was a terrible article. Let's switch gears. I was so excited to join you last week in, in Ithaca at Cornell, where you teach animal law because a, I just have fun with you when we're on a little mini road trip and b. Ithaca is so fun. But c, the one Crystal Heath, who we're fairly obsessed with, she spoke at your class about bird flu, and she's a veterinarian who the industry absolutely hates and loathes, which she incorporates into her talk. And, uh, she was amazing. The, your students were amazing. They stayed after for a while to ask questions.

[00:16:02] Mariann Sullivan: to stay. Yeah, no, they were really engaged. I mean she even mentioned that they were just, you know, 'cause you go to classrooms, and a lot of times students are like typing away or whatever, and they were just riveted by her talk. She was great.

[00:16:15] Jasmin Singer: Yes, she was.

[00:16:16] Mariann Sullivan: and they were so, you know, like even like they're really interested in the topic and still so much of this news is news to them, you know, only about bird flu and, and an antibiotics and all of the horrors. The class was specifically on externalities, so not almost all of my classes are about the harm to the animals, but this class is on all of the other harms that the meat industry does, which of course could be an entire course on itself. But you know, I can only fit in so much and I have to focus on the animals.

But they were great and the information was shocking, and Crystal was amazing.

[00:16:51] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, she was, and one of the things that she mentioned was that some of her footage was going to be, like her undercover footage was going to be used in 60 minutes, which now since your class it aired, it aired this past Sunday, I think. And so there's this segment on bird flu that 60 Minutes did, and I'm, we're gonna of course link to it in the show notes.

I have to really strongly recommend that you watch this 15 minute segment. If you're listening, I also sent it around to a few people. Uh, it it's really unreal. I mean, it, it is, it's too real. And so therefore it's unreal. The scientists who they were talking to are completely terrified.

One of the scientists said, I know I'm going to sound alarmist, but this could wipe out humanity.

[00:17:39] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, of course it could. It's a virus. Like have we learned nothing?

[00:17:43] Jasmin Singer: Have we learned nothing?

[00:17:45] Mariann Sullivan: And, you know, the bird flu. I mean, right now the bird flu that we've seen in, in the US has, um, it's spread through millions of birds and it's spread through dairy cows and plenty of other animals have gotten it, though I don't think any of them has had the massive spread because probably hasn't, infected animals who are kept so closely confined in other species, but cats can get it. And humans have gotten it. Not very many, and they haven't gotten that sick except for one guy who died and he had pre-existing conditions. What does that sound like? But in past times, bird flu, just a variation of this one. And, you know, viruses have variations. Have we learned nothing? Has been 50% lethal among humans.

So if this virus were to translate into something, you know, 'cause it's breeding everywhere. It's reproducing everywhere. And if it were to become something like the, that former widely spread, uh, type of bird flu that was, it was mostly in Asia. It would kill half of the people who got it.

[00:18:49] Jasmin Singer: Oh, we have a guest. Hang on one sec.

This is Kathy! We have a guest. We told our, our listeners that this is a different episode, that we were gonna have a, a drop by visitor. And here you are, the one and only Kathy Stevens. It's so good to see your face.

[00:19:03] Kathy Stevens: Yippy skippy!. Likewise. Likewise, you guys.

[00:19:07] Jasmin Singer: So what is happening? You have a big announcement, a big life change in your

[00:19:11] Kathy Stevens: A big life change after 25 years growing this organization. I am stepping down.

[00:19:20] Jasmin Singer: Wow. Wow.

[00:19:21] Kathy Stevens: Yeah.

[00:19:23] Mariann Sullivan: I wanna know the plans for you and the plans for Catskill.

[00:19:26] Jasmin Singer: Can I just say that that's an era. Like if there ever were such a thing. Kathy, I'm, this is gonna take me a minute, but yes, like Mariann said, what happens now? I mean, how do things move forward? I don't understand. I'm So confused. So,

[00:19:39] Kathy Stevens: don't be confused. So this has been many, many, many months in the making. Um, it's actually in my mind, been years in the making. And in fact, we have probably had this conversation before the three of us, or certainly Jasmin you and I. I never wanted to be somebody who worked until I had a foot in the grave.

You know, I am deeply passionate about this work and believe in it with all my heart, and I want to support the next generation of people. But from a selfish perspective. There are other things I care about too, and in this fraught, stressful world, I wanna do those things while I still can do those things.

That that's number one. Number two, sort of more magnanimously. I'm gonna be 67 in July.

[00:20:36] Jasmin Singer: Happy birthday you look, you look at least 10, 15 years younger than that, by

[00:20:41] Kathy Stevens: Well, I'm not. Thank you. and I believe that there's a certain point where, where founders in particular have to recognize that it's time for somebody younger. I can't stand technology. I can't stand it. I cannot wait to throw away all these devices. I am not good, particularly at absorbing the rapid pace of change and the implications for running a nonprofit, you know, particularly around messaging and fundraising.

So it's time the organization needs somebody younger and.

[00:21:22] Mariann Sullivan: Well, I, I totally hear you about leaving before it's too late to do anything new, so I really wanna know what the new is.

[00:21:29] Kathy Stevens: Oh my goodness. So look, my partner, David and I are very physically active and we've always put things, I've always put him second. This organization has been my first for a quarter century, so I look forward to putting him first. And my relationships first, but we are huge outdoor lovers. So we are going to travel, we are going to do more kayaking and biking and dog walking and exploring and, and I've always been extremely close with my sister and my nieces and nephews, and the next generation is starting to come.

There's a baby and there's one on the way, and there's been a marriage. And so I wanna ex experience these little people and be in their lives in a way that I wasn't in the lives of my nieces and nephew in their earliest years because this work was completely all consuming.

[00:22:31] Jasmin Singer: You said that selfishly speaking, but Kathy, can we just like pause and, and interrogate that moment for just a second?

[00:22:38] Kathy Stevens: Yeah.

[00:22:39] Jasmin Singer: it isn't selfish at all. I mean, you, you must really know this, like you are an animal and you're taking care of your own animal rights and, and you're leaving before you have a chance to get burnt out. I think that that's heroic.

[00:22:53] Mariann Sullivan: What is next for Catskill?

[00:22:55] Kathy Stevens: Look right now, the organization is very, we have an extraordinary team. We are going to post for an ed. It's taken us a while to, get the job description tight in the way we wanted it to be and to ask those questions. Who in this dramatically different era. What does that new Ed need to look, look like? And so we're gonna be posting the job description probably this week. Um, taking our time. I'm not running away. I've given June 30th as my final date, but I will certainly, be available to handhold, to mentor, to support, to help onboard in whatever ways that I can.

So. You know, that's what's next is finding that right person.

[00:23:45] Mariann Sullivan: There might be somebody listening right now out there who, who is saying, that's the job I

[00:23:50] Kathy Stevens: Ooh, ooh. Would that be the coolest? Ooh.

[00:23:55] Jasmin Singer: That would be pretty great. I love that. So.

[00:23:57] Mariann Sullivan: So Where would people find out about you, when you do like, finalize the job posting,

[00:24:02] Kathy Stevens: Where it's gonna be all over the place. You know, there'll be a posting on the website. There'll be a posting on LinkedIn that we'll share it on the vegan job boards. It'll be around, we'll share it on Indeed. So it'll be all over the place. And I'm gonna be reaching out, to all kinds of people, sharing it and asking for ideas.

[00:24:23] Mariann Sullivan: you know so much and you have so much, you know, so much about the industry. You know so much about animals, you know, so much about sanctuary work. like, I hate to think of that all just like disappearing. Do you have plans to, write a book, another book? Uh, do you have plans to share your knowledge?

And, we were told though, I'm not sure that was even something that you wanted to talk about today. Is that right?

[00:24:50] Kathy Stevens: Well, I do. I have been invited by my publisher to write another book.

[00:24:56] Mariann Sullivan: Excellent.

[00:24:57] Kathy Stevens: Now, I don't know, you know what you guys, I'm sure you can relate to this, this, because you guys both go 900 miles an hour, right? You're involved in so many different things. I need to do nothing for a bit. Just open up that space and I don't even know what that looks like for a bit in order to figure out what comes next.

[00:25:20] Mariann Sullivan: you have to take a

[00:25:21] Kathy Stevens: You have to take a moment. But I have also been Mariann, I have also been, and I'm really contemplating this been invited to do a college speaking tour. So, um,

[00:25:34] Mariann Sullivan: that idea.

[00:25:35] Kathy Stevens: You know, I got a couple irons in the fire, but I don't want any right now. I, I wrote any, I'll

[00:25:40] Mariann Sullivan: no, I, I know I'm not being

[00:25:41] Kathy Stevens: No, I'll tell you, I'll never, but what's at what I do know, I will never leave this world.

it's in my DNA. I live it, breathe it, think it, dream it. Right? So I will never leave this world. I just am. I am ready. And honestly, I. CAS is ready. I'm saying this on behalf of CAS, for me to step aside. So it's exciting. It's gonna be bittersweet. I'm gonna sob and sob and sob, but it's, it's the right time.

[00:26:18] Jasmin Singer: So Kathy, I don't mean to talk about something so ugly, but the administration right now, like. I don't know what it would be like to retire at, at a moment when all of this is happening in the world. And it might be exactly the perfect time and it might be fraught, so tell me a little bit about what your thoughts are relating to the Trump administration and you know, specifically as it relates to your time retiring and the Trump administration's kind of way that they're dealing with animals.

[00:26:51] Kathy Stevens: Well, it's very interesting. It's too, too early to know really what they're gonna do. But I sort of have three buckets of concern and two of them are connected. The first concern is around the farm bill. the second concern, and I'm gonna, I'll elaborate on all of these. The second one is around the intensity of this anti-regulatory environment.

And there's an intersection between those two things. And then the third is that I read somewhere, that some in this, in the animal rights space have a concern that it will be more difficult for animal rights concerns to get airtime because of all the noise and the chaos and the way that Trump is so good at creating noise and chaos that the things he doesn't want to have airtime don't get airtime.

So the farm bill. It is this giant omnibus bill that covers kind of everything related to agricultural policy, but also nutrition policy.

It's a 400 plus billion dollars. in expenditures for every chunk of time that the bill is passed. it hasn't passed, in the last two cycles. It was supposed to be passed a couple years ago. It wasn't. So it got pushed to the next year with an extension. It was supposed to pass last year and it wasn't.

It got pushed to this year with an extension. It is now supposed to be voted on in the House and Senate in the fall. It covers everything from subsidies and crop insurance to it's what funds our, SNAP benefits. About 75% of that $400 billion every five years goes to cover, food stamps.

But my concern about it is this, there are mandated programs, non-discretionary programs like crop insurance for example, and like the SNAP program. But then there are discretionary things. And this is where my concerns about the Farm Bill intersect with my concerns about deregulation.

The Eats Act if your listeners are familiar with the Eats,

[00:29:17] Mariann Sullivan: we, we talk about the EAT Act pretty much every week, though they don't call it the EAT Act anymore. They have a new name

[00:29:22] Kathy Stevens: okay. Correct? Correct. It's no longer the Eats Act and it's now been buried in the Farm Bill.

[00:29:27] Mariann Sullivan: We're obsessed with it.

[00:29:28] Kathy Stevens: Okay. And my concern is that because it's not garnering the attention from the mainstream media, like it was at some point that it's gonna slip through and that the years of slow progress on things like Prop 12 out of California, banning gestation crates, et cetera, that those things could disappear if the focus is not in the way that it has been. And I don't see that it is, that the focus is there in the way that it has been. So that's my concern, like, Prop 12 is gonna go away under this administration.

A second related concern is about all the anti-regulatory nonsense. And this new woman, I can't remember her name,

The one who's the head of the meat institute.

[00:30:26] Mariann Sullivan: the meat institute.

I'm sorry, I don't know who that is,

[00:30:28] Kathy Stevens: Okay. That's okay. So.

[00:30:30] Mariann Sullivan: it

[00:30:30] Kathy Stevens: So whoever it is, two huge lobbying groups for the meat industries several years ago, merged and became the Meat Institute, and now the Meat Institute is lobbying quietly for the most outrageous things that would be horrifying for humans and horrifying for animals. Making factory farms and slaughterhouses exempt from the Clean Water Act.

Increasing line speed in at

[00:30:58] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm. Right.

[00:30:59] Kathy Stevens: and.

[00:31:00] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:31:00] Mariann Sullivan: Oh, they're, they're already doing that.

[00:31:02] Kathy Stevens: they already, they did that. Right? And then at one point he wanted to remove all limits. Right. And that was rebuffed.

[00:31:10] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, they have a new push, or at least a new commitment to making meat processing speeds faster and making that permanent. And they're calling it like a win for efficiency, I

[00:31:23] Kathy Stevens: They're calling it a win. Yes, they are. And so I am terrified about the combination of those two things and then the of the, the Farm Bill and what's gonna be snuck into the Farm Bill and this anti-regulatory environment that I think could have such horrifying implications for farm animals.

[00:31:43] Jasmin Singer: Unbelievable. I mean, the, the administration is, and everyone is talking about how there's no direct link between these faster speeds and injuries and it's just, it's such bullshit and it's like, you know, also the slaughterhouse workers, like, like you said, they're all telling a different story.

[00:32:00] Kathy Stevens: Well, remember, remember how many covid deaths and outbreaks, outbreaks and deaths were linked to slaughterhouses?

[00:32:09] Jasmin Singer: Yeah,

[00:32:10] Mariann Sullivan: Absolutely.

[00:32:10] Kathy Stevens: So, you know,

[00:32:12] Mariann Sullivan: It's hard. I mean, the Biden administration was a complete disaster for animals. I'm not gonna deny it, and it's hard to believe that it's gonna get worse, but it is.

[00:32:19] Kathy Stevens: You know, I often quote you, Jasmin when you say hope is a strategy and I am finding it harder to hold on to hope, and I just, that feels horrible. But name a cause that we care about that isn't under threat.

[00:32:37] Jasmin Singer: yeah.

[00:32:38] Mariann Sullivan: Well, the way I think about hope now is that it kind of doesn't matter. Like what else are you gonna do with your life?

[00:32:44] Jasmin Singer: So you're making.

[00:32:46] Mariann Sullivan: go along? Are you just gonna be that person Like, if you don't have hope, you don't have hope, but you still gotta, fight. I.

[00:32:52] Jasmin Singer: So you are basically saying remove the conversation about hope because it's, it's becoming irrelevant. Mariann,

[00:32:59] Mariann Sullivan: you're, if you're saying, well, if I don't have hope, then I don't have to do this. That's not true. You have to do it in order to be you. Like in order to live, like, uh, that Mary Oliver quote, your one wild and precious

[00:33:11] Jasmin Singer: right.

[00:33:12] Mariann Sullivan: gonna spend it like doing what?

[00:33:14] Kathy Stevens: Yeah, and I, you know, I have moments when I think, okay, you know what, yes. The Supreme Court recently did a decent thing temporarily, right?

[00:33:24] Mariann Sullivan: Absolutely, we don't know what's gonna

[00:33:26] Kathy Stevens: We don't know what's gonna be happening and could this become another 1960s?

You know, could there be that many people in the streets? And, you know, so I don't know. but I think you're right. Whether or not we are hopeful is irrelevant. I would just like, personally to feel more hopeful,

[00:33:48] Mariann Sullivan: I, I

[00:33:49] Kathy Stevens: more consistently hopeful,

[00:33:51] Mariann Sullivan: it.

[00:33:51] Kathy Stevens: but to Right. But to fight like hell and to fight smarter and to fight more strategically is more important than it's ever been.

[00:34:00] Mariann Sullivan: Absolutely. And I know you're going to be back in that fight but first you're going to take a good long break and get your brain back

[00:34:07] Kathy Stevens: summer.

[00:34:07] Mariann Sullivan: Get your, get your peace back in. But I, I would never suspect you as one to give up. So thank you so much, Kathy for sharing it all with us.

[00:34:16] Kathy Stevens: Oh, it has been an absolute privilege as always. And Mariann, I know you can't make it to the retirement party. Jasmin, I hope you can make it, but I know you guys are busy women.

[00:34:27] Jasmin Singer: Oh, well if I can't, then we will have to celebrate another time and we can raise a glass to hope or despair. I don't care. But regardless, we'll all be here anyway. So, I mean, until, until bird flu gets the vegans too, then we'll be gone.

[00:34:46] Kathy Stevens: Oh my goodness.

[00:34:47] Jasmin Singer: Well, thank you so much, Kathy. We love you. We wish you all of the very best and definitely keep us posted on that job offering. And we'll post it when it, pops

[00:34:58] Kathy Stevens: Thanks guys. Keep on keeping on. Love you both.

[00:35:00] Jasmin Singer: Love you. Thank you.

[00:35:02] Mariann Sullivan: Love to everybody there, including the animals!

Bye.

[00:35:05] Jasmin Singer: Well, that was fun to have our first just random visitor, you know, it would be funny except for probably I would hate this idea, but also I think it would be funny if Vicki randomly chose people to drop in on us during the Hen Report and, and we didn't know, and they just show up at some point.

[00:35:23] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Maybe not.

[00:35:24] Jasmin Singer: Okay. All right. So let

[00:35:27] Mariann Sullivan: I don't like,

[00:35:28] Jasmin Singer: Really,

[00:35:29] Mariann Sullivan: that?

[00:35:30] Jasmin Singer: I didn't, I.

[00:35:31] Mariann Sullivan: I. think we need to, we, we need to be

[00:35:34] Jasmin Singer: I didn't, I really, I had no idea. Alright. Well we,

[00:35:37] Mariann Sullivan: we were kind of in the middle of a story when

[00:35:39] Jasmin Singer: let's, let's, let's jump back in.

[00:35:41] Mariann Sullivan: the middle. We would, we had talked about bird flu.

We had talked about my class. We had talked about 60 Minutes, but we had not talked about the fact that the dairy industry in the area that we are living in is exploding beyond imagination, and nobody is talking about bird flu, and we're all gonna die.

[00:36:01] Jasmin Singer: Well, okay. Yeah.

[00:36:03] Mariann Sullivan: die anyway,

[00:36:04] Jasmin Singer: I mean,

[00:36:04] Mariann Sullivan: it's so annoying that the vegans can die just as easily as the non-vegan.

So there's, they're like, they're expanding dairy. I mean,

the government, of course, it's our, is using our tax money to get all of these huge dairy outfits and they, they're processing plants. So there's this huge, a $1.2 billion Chobani plant, is going to be built in Rome, which is in New York. And then they're already building a Fair Life, like disgusting Fair Life, which has had like the worst animal rights investigations you can imagine. Um, are building a, a plant in Webster, which is right down the road from Rochester. Like seriously, right.

[00:36:41] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, like 10 minutes.

[00:36:42] Mariann Sullivan: Also the government is paying for that.

And they paid money to a nearby county to, to prepare the site for development for Chobani. They, they've got this, jobs program. Yeah. These are, and these aren't, these are not gonna be dairies. These are

[00:36:56] Jasmin Singer: No.

[00:36:57] Mariann Sullivan: plants. But what the plan is, is to, it's to expand New York state's dairy industry, which is already like too big and too scary and too horrible.

And I hate driving around and passing one of these hideous outfits. And I'm just so pissed off about it.

[00:37:10] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. I mean the headlines are,

[00:37:13] Mariann Sullivan: Nobody's talking about bird

[00:37:14] Jasmin Singer: right. The.

[00:37:14] Mariann Sullivan: unbelievable.

[00:37:15] Jasmin Singer: unbelievable. Have we now learned anything? The, the headlines are painting this picture of economic growth and job creation, but it's completely missing the cost to, let's just for a second, remove the animals from the discussion because everyone's so good at doing that.

Anyway, let's remove the environment too. No one's talking about the cost of public health either. And, and

[00:37:38] Mariann Sullivan: go back to the

[00:37:39] Jasmin Singer: now let's bring in the environment.

[00:37:41] Mariann Sullivan: Like the

[00:37:42] Jasmin Singer: They're cows.

[00:37:42] Mariann Sullivan: the environment, the worst possible thing for the environment.

[00:37:45] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I mean it Bird flu

[00:37:48] Mariann Sullivan: My

[00:37:48] Jasmin Singer: it.

[00:37:49] Mariann Sullivan: money. I'm so pissed off.

[00:37:50] Jasmin Singer: know. Me too, me too.

[00:37:52] Mariann Sullivan: people, people

[00:37:52] Jasmin Singer: This the cross. The cross species. The cross species transmission should be raising more alarm bells than it is, especially in Western New York, where

[00:38:02] Mariann Sullivan: mean, like there's no secret anymore. The cows catch bird flu really easily and, and just watch the 60 Minutes. piece. It'll,

[00:38:09] Jasmin Singer: just watch the 60 minutes.

[00:38:11] Mariann Sullivan: of this yet, it'll scare the socks off

[00:38:12] Jasmin Singer: Uh, but you know what, like I, I know that Kathy was, and you were just talking about hope, blah, blah, blah. But I, I have to say Crystal Heath, the woman gives me hope.

[00:38:24] Mariann Sullivan: Well, she's a fighter,

[00:38:26] Jasmin Singer: She, but she's, she's not just one woman, like she is one woman, but she's, she is really impacting so many others, you know, including those in the veterinary profession, including those who are, you know, um, major stakeholders and

[00:38:43] Mariann Sullivan: she's a real leader.

[00:38:44] Jasmin Singer: yeah, she Exactly.

[00:38:45] Mariann Sullivan: put together like coalitions and, brought together the people in the veterinary profession. Few and far between as they are, who deeply care about these issues.

[00:38:54] Jasmin Singer: Deeply,

[00:38:55] Mariann Sullivan: the more there are, the more there are,

[00:38:58] Jasmin Singer: yeah.

[00:38:58] Mariann Sullivan: space for people and suddenly they figure out that they actually care.

[00:39:02] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Oh my gosh. All right. I'm completely lost on our notes here. I'm looking back at it. Oh, there it is. Okay. I see it. Uh, yeah, the Politico story.

[00:39:12] Mariann Sullivan: so I thought I would mention it. USDA's $1 billion bird flu plan uses money intended for schools and food banks. So as I mentioned, this is from Politico. And so they've put together this 1 billion plan for fighting bird flu and the way they're paying for it.

'cause you know, like, we wanna cut taxes on all the rich people and we wanna cut everything and we have no money. So they came up with something to raid. And that's like, there's this program, and it's not even that much money, but it's to help schools and food banks buy food, fresh food from local farmers.

And so kids might have like real food to eat in schools and food banks would have real food to distribute to people. And so that's how they're gonna fight bird flu in the whole country. is the, this is

the program that

[00:39:57] Jasmin Singer: such as,

[00:39:58] Mariann Sullivan: with to, uh, to, to finance that,

[00:40:00] Jasmin Singer: such as reactive. Just being reactive Is what they're doing.

[00:40:04] Mariann Sullivan: And there had been a billion dollars in funding to that local program, that was done under the Biden administration. So I guess it's not that small. It is a fair amount of money, but you know, it's a big country and it's a great idea like getting, food from local farms. I don't know what, it probably also includes like animal based food.

I don't know whether it does, but obviously it would include a lot of fruits and vegetables. God forbid we should give that to kids. Better we should cure bird flu so we can have more eggs and chicken. Um,

[00:40:33] Jasmin Singer: right, let's, let's, let's move on to this.

[00:40:36] Mariann Sullivan: like, I put all these bad stories together.

[00:40:38] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Let's move on to this Sentient Media story.

[00:40:42] Mariann Sullivan: Federal inspectors found antibiotics in beef, quote, raised with antibiotics. They took no action. I mean, that the headline kind of tells it all. This is another story from the wonderful, wonderful Sentient Media. What would we do without them? What would we know? We would know nothing. This is involves, you know, some minor meat companies known as JBS, Cargill, and Tyson. They have been sampling the meat, that is labeled antibiotic free.

This is beef or raised without antibiotics and found that in a significant percentage, I think it's 20% of the samples. There was antibiotics actually in the meat. I mean, even if they're raised, even if they're given antibiotics, the antibiotics don't actually necessarily show up in the meat. So it's probably a much higher, they're probably giving, antibiotics to all of them.

The letters that uncovered this were obtained by Farm Forward. So, kudos to them. And according to this guy, Kiev Nachman, he's not concerned about immediate health impacts. Actually consuming antibiotic residue doesn't cause illness. According to them. you know, it's the worry that antibiotic resistance will

[00:41:46] Jasmin Singer: Ugh.

[00:41:47] Mariann Sullivan: and then will have greater terms.

And I think that's, that's obviously true. I don't know whether it. Consuming them causes no harm whatsoever. It doesn't seem like taking random antibiotics is good for you. But the thing is, is that people are freaked out when they find out that there's antibiotics in the meat. They think that's what it's all about unless you inform them that it has more to do with giving the germs and opportunity to develop into antibiotic resistant bacteria.

'cause germ are very, very, very, very smart and they're constantly cha, well not smart, but they're constantly changing to adjust and, and to overcome whatever things are put in their way. So you know, the real risk is that they will develop antibiotic resistant bacteria, which of course, you know, is a huge, huge problem growing bigger. But I think just telling people that there's antibiotics in the meat is actually the thing that really freaks them out. Like telling 'em the whole story of how antibiotic resistant bacteria develops is too hard for people to understand. It confuses them, telling 'em that there's antibiotics in the meat grosses people out.

I have seen that happen. I'm pretty sure that's true.

[00:42:49] Jasmin Singer: I mean the, it's the, the mis,

[00:42:52] Mariann Sullivan: they charge more money for this too. They charge more money for quote unquote antibiotic free meat.

[00:42:58] Jasmin Singer: The mislabeling is so deceptive, but I think what makes me so angry when I read about this kind of thing is how much it undermines the, as you said, like the public health efforts to combat these antibiotic resistance, like I don't know, this is the World Health Organization says that this is a crisis.

It's like one of the top, it's the top, the top, one of the top global health threats. And the USDA is relying on self-reported documentation without third party testing. What?

[00:43:31] Mariann Sullivan: People used to die like of strep throat or used to get very, very, very sick. Like all sorts of things that are caused by bacteria. And now we just think, Oh you just take antibiotics and it'll be gone. Which is true, but you know, if the antibiotics can't beat it, we're all gonna die.

[00:43:47] Jasmin Singer: Oh my God.

[00:43:48] Mariann Sullivan: gonna

[00:43:48] Jasmin Singer: I was just thinking that like, this is intense. This is an intense episode. Remember when we used to be indefatigably positive?

[00:43:56] Mariann Sullivan: Well, I, I don't know whether we're not being positive, like learning, like if we were negative, we wouldn't bother to learn any of this. We would just turn our eyes away and give up. I think not giving up is a way to be positive.

Learning what's really going on is a way to not give up in the hopes that you can use this information in some way.

[00:44:17] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, well

[00:44:19] Mariann Sullivan: Do you think nobody's gonna wanna listen?

[00:44:21] Jasmin Singer: Probably

[00:44:22] Mariann Sullivan: This is too depressing except for that one person out there and we're doing this for you. So I hope you appreciate it.

[00:44:28] Jasmin Singer: The one who gets sand all over herself when she's at the beach. That one?

[00:44:32] Mariann Sullivan: That one.

[00:44:33] Jasmin Singer: Okay.

[00:44:33] Mariann Sullivan: exactly.

[00:44:34] Jasmin Singer: you. We know that if there's one download this week, it's you. Alright. There's more, more, more shitty news.

[00:44:42] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I know that. Alright,

[00:44:44] Jasmin Singer: do have good news later. We do have.

[00:44:46] Mariann Sullivan: this one really quickly, but I

[00:44:48] Jasmin Singer: Wait, wait, wait. Talk about it, like talk about it in Pig Latin or something so that we don't understand it.

[00:44:54] Mariann Sullivan: away.

[00:44:54] Jasmin Singer: Okay.

[00:44:55] Mariann Sullivan: Trump opens a huge marine protected zone to commercial fishing. This is in The Times, and yet this is, uh, the president said the move was aimed at making the United States the world's dominant seafood leader.

Yeah, that sounds like the president dominant is like a word that he obviously loves, and so there... why everything is up to the president. I thought we had like, you know, branches of government, but apparently we just elect a king every four years. I don't know. But anyway, he said on Thursday he was allowing commercial fishing in one of the world's largest ocean reserves, introducing industrial operations for the first time in more than a decade to a vast area of the Pacific dotted with coral a, is it, do you say that atols? And populated by endangered sea turtles and whales. And this is the Pacific Islands Heritage Marine National Monument. uh, this is like 500,000 square miles

So we're talking about a big area and apparently it has been protected from commercial fishing. And, you know, there's a lot of people, some of them, you know, are local, many of whom I'm sure are not, who wanna fish there and who want to come and kill all the fish and do commercial fishing.

I mean, you know, people are allowed to do local fishing now. So that's depressing. All right, I'm gonna move on now,

[00:46:05] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I don't,

[00:46:06] Mariann Sullivan: I promise. 'cause I, I really like this, this next

[00:46:09] Jasmin Singer: okay, but you better hurry. The one listener, is thinking about turning it off.

[00:46:15] Mariann Sullivan: New documentary follows quote, incredible 87-year-old vegan ultra runner Paul Youd. This is from Plant-based News. I, you know, I just love a story about an old vegan who, who apparently, they're doing this documentary about him because what he's trying to do is to complete 100 ultra marathons before his 100th birthday. I mean, God, love this guy. Oh, I say that all the time, don't I? That's my new expression. God love him. Um,

[00:46:47] Jasmin Singer: So that he doesn't go to hell.

[00:46:49] Mariann Sullivan: and the, it's gonna be called more like Paul, and it's directed by Damien Sciberras. I think it's a short film, but I'm ex I am excited about seeing this. I wanna see this 'cause I bet this guy really a pip. He has to average approximately six ultra marathon. I don't even know how long an ultra marathon is six ultra marathons per year to meet his target of a hundred because, you know, he doesn't have that many. He's 87. He doesn't have that many years left before, before this happens. God, I hope he makes it. that story made me happy.

[00:47:19] Jasmin Singer: Well, and he is not just, this is,

[00:47:21] Mariann Sullivan: me feel like

[00:47:22] Jasmin Singer: but I also wanna say it's not just about personal achievement because he's fundraising for animal rights organizations like Viva, and he emphasizes respect over compassion when he's discussing our relationship with animals. And I really love that.

[00:47:38] Mariann Sullivan: that.

[00:47:38] Jasmin Singer: We were talking in the last couple weeks just about the word compassion.

I think when maybe when Colleen Patrick-Goudreau was on. and I was saying how I feel like the word compassion has gotten really watered down over the last, you know, 10, 15, 20 years.

[00:47:53] Mariann Sullivan: I, I think respect is a really good substitute.

[00:47:56] Jasmin Singer: R-E-S-B-E-C-T. Yeah, me too.

[00:48:00] Mariann Sullivan: He, the quote from him is, I wanna do as much as I can for the animals. I love him.

[00:48:05] Jasmin Singer: Let's get him on the podcast.

[00:48:06] Mariann Sullivan: As I've ever been. I'm as fit as I've ever been, and I'm living my best. I want to keep going as long as I can.

[00:48:12] Jasmin Singer: Should get him on the podcast in between miles maybe. Alright, let's talk about this, uh, a recent Faunalytics study that came out. It.

[00:48:22] Mariann Sullivan: wanted to mention this 'cause I think this could be really useful for people. The economic impacts of a plant-based transition, exploring two growth scenarios. And I, you know, Faunalytics is doing some astounding work. I really love what they're doing. And I mean this, you know, they don't oversell it.

This doesn't like, this can't predict the future, it can't, you know, model everything. But they did do this pretty serious study of what would happen if we went more plant-based, one in which we went a little bit more plant-based, and one in which we went a lot more plant-based. And in both situations it would be good, there would be more jobs.

That was one consideration. Obviously that would be a lot higher, I guess, you know, plant-based agriculture, I mean, I don't really know why, but plant-based agriculture must require more jobs. And they're much better jobs. But, it also said in the smaller of our two growth scenarios, the industries affected by a plant-based shift would contribute at 0.3% more to GDP And et cetera, et cetera. The larger transition to giving up animal agriculture, not giving it up, but, you know, transitioning to some extent, would be enormous and, and would contribute 4% more to GDP, 2% more to total tax revenue, and 4% more to total labor income. Now, I know I'm, these are dry statistics and everything.

I just think that if this is something that you are out there advocating for, you need to look at this report because it has a lot of great information here and on topics that we're not usually all that well equipped to make a good argument. And the fact that there would be these enormous economic benefits, I just think is something that people don't think of.

And, You know, that's something that a lot of people can hear. I'm just reading from the summary. There's a whole report, so there's really a lot of ammunition here for people who are interested in making those kinds of arguments and learning more about them.

[00:50:14] Jasmin Singer: Well,

finally, Mariann. I hope that our listeners stayed with us. Why don't you talk about this, because it, this was a little hard to find, but we found an Instagram post that we'll link to.

[00:50:25] Mariann Sullivan: Senator Schiff no dairy work. I didn't know he was doing no dairy work, though he is vegan, so I found this piece on, on Instagram from Free From Harm. And he's on the ad committee. And apparently Senator Marshall, who's also on the ad committee, introduced this whole milk for Healthy Kids act like that they would replace, they don't wanna use skim milk anymore, probably 'cause of some like bullshit, uh, RFK thing, I don't know. And everybody was really excited and were gushing over this and talking about how great the dairy industry and proposing ways to increase dairy consumption. And Senator Schiff spoke up and he didn't oppose moving from skim milk to whole milk. He just said, well, Yeah, then let, let's add soy milk too. And I think that is a great idea and I hope he can make this happen.

[00:51:10] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Cool.

[00:51:11] Mariann Sullivan: you know, why not? Why not give kids the option? That's all he is arguing for.

[00:51:15] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:51:16] Mariann Sullivan: we know, we know why not. But,

[00:51:18] Jasmin Singer: Well,

[00:51:18] Mariann Sullivan: good for him.

[00:51:19] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, and, and from a good political story to a ridiculous one, Spain just made headlines for allowing vegan children to eat vegan food in school canteens. Not providing vegan food, allowing it. In 2025. Is that, I mean, do I have that right? Is there something I'm missing?

[00:51:40] Mariann Sullivan: IF when I first saw that story, I thought, oh wow, you know, like, we're such losers here. Everybody is better at us than everything. And then I saw what it was about, what it was actually about. This is by Jordi Casamitjana, on Vegan FTA, and I just, I mean, I guess it's good they're allowed.

I mean, they're also, it includes a guarantee that vegans can eat vegan food, either because schools offer vegan options or because they're allowed to bring it from home. Like really, like they had to like pass a new policy, a new regulation to allow kids to bring food from home?

[00:52:18] Jasmin Singer: It's, this is, I don't know. I think

[00:52:20] Mariann Sullivan: not like sit down and force them to eat dead animals.

[00:52:23] Jasmin Singer: thing is oddly congratulatory. I,

[00:52:26] Mariann Sullivan: that's, I guess that's a plus. I don't know.

[00:52:29] Jasmin Singer: I mean, come on. This is ridiculous.

[00:52:32] Mariann Sullivan: better than it was.

[00:52:33] Jasmin Singer: Fine. It's a, it's a tiny step.

[00:52:35] Mariann Sullivan: I think that we are just so pathetic. And by we I mean humans. I mean also

actually, I always think that.

[00:52:43] Jasmin Singer: Well, this should have happened decades ago. But you do love this next, this next story, you said you cried.

[00:52:49] Mariann Sullivan: This story. I saw it and, you know, I just thought, well, I better read it. and it's very short and I read it and I cried.

It's about the elephants, you might've heard of this. The elephants form alert circle during earthquake at San Diego Zoo Safari Park. It's watching the video that really got to me.

I mean, that's the whole story. There was that earthquake. It, it wasn't huge, but it definitely wasn't nothing in San Diego and these elephants who were in the San Diego Zoo's Safari Park, which is kind of an open enclosure. It had like, maybe, I think around three adults and, and two younger ones. And then I watched the video and these elephants that like, it just. It's just so heartbreaking. Like not heartbreaking, but, there they are. And they, they formed this circle and they put the babies. So they're the young in the middle to protect. I mean, I'm not sure they knew exactly what the harm was, but they knew something was wrong. It's just so beautiful to watch. But the thing that I really wanted to talk about it, it's not in the article itself, but in the social media post, it talked about, like that they were using their instinct, and I just think it's so interesting how differently we use instinct.

Or think about instinct or I, and maybe I'm wrong, maybe don't, people don't think like this, but like if somebody wrote a, a, a story and said this mother instinctively grabbed her child to protect him from whatever, the earthquake, uh, or anything else, we would not think that she was brainless. We would think that, you know, it was both an impulse that caused her to think how to do the right thing. But I feel like when it comes to animals, a lot of people use instinct in this way of like, that they weren't thinking at all. Like, just some kind of like nameless force, like caused them to do this without any like consciousness.

I don't know whether people think that or not, but I think the use of that word, when they use the word instinct, really implies that.

[00:54:41] Jasmin Singer: When you told me this, when we were preparing to record. You blew my mind. This opened up my brain. Like I, I had to go revisit the billions of times people have used the word instinct as it relates to animals in the 45 and a half years that I've been alive and get angry at every single time. Like, you're totally right.

It's, it's like, you know what

[00:55:08] Mariann Sullivan: that that is,

[00:55:09] Jasmin Singer: I,

[00:55:10] Mariann Sullivan: how people

[00:55:11] Jasmin Singer: It reminds me of when the vet was at your house and like giving a shot or something to your dog who was upset, and then the vet said, oh, don't worry about it. She, the vet tech said, don't worry about it. She the, like, animals feel pain differently or something.

[00:55:30] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

[00:55:31] Jasmin Singer: It's, I don't know why it reminds me of that.

[00:55:33] Mariann Sullivan: because it's, we, we tell ourselves whatever we wanna think about animals like that.

makes us feel better about what we do to them.

[00:55:41] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:55:41] Mariann Sullivan: mean, there wasn't anything wrong in what she was doing, but that could, that's the argument that excuses a million different

[00:55:47] Jasmin Singer: Instincts.

[00:55:48] Mariann Sullivan: posed on

[00:55:49] Jasmin Singer: I mean, you know what, like, I remember, this is so weird that this is coming back to me. I remember let's say 25 years ago, maybe a little more than that, I was dating a guy for a long time. I was, I was not. I, whatever. I dated men then and I remember we had this conversation about men and monogamy and he said that like it is an instinct of men to like go get laid all the time outside of your relationship.

I just remember he said that, of course I became a lesbian, so the jokes on him, but that

[00:56:28] Mariann Sullivan: Sure he is still laughing.

[00:56:29] Jasmin Singer: Probably, uh, but I guess the point is that like we could use the word instinct. For anything that would be convenient or dismissive.

[00:56:41] Mariann Sullivan: But the way we use it with animals is different. It's like, like if it's instinct, they're just like machines. It's like they're programmed to do that.

[00:56:49] Jasmin Singer: Right.

[00:56:50] Mariann Sullivan: and they don't have to think it through. Like we do have instincts. I think it is, you know, instinctive of people to have sex, that's for sure.

But that's not the only thing that goes into your decision to have sex.

[00:57:00] Jasmin Singer: Right.

[00:57:01] Mariann Sullivan: that you want, that your body is pushing you to do that. Like,

[00:57:04] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:05] Mariann Sullivan: other, you do have decision making capability and so do animals. I mean, you know, they knew there was danger, they knew what they had to do, and how much that was driven by something innate and how much it was driven by their brains.

It's like, you know, the same thing with humans. Exactly the same thing with humans. Like, anyway.

[00:57:25] Jasmin Singer: Alright,

[00:57:26] Mariann Sullivan: on.

[00:57:27] Jasmin Singer: let's move on. So Ridglan Farms, which.

[00:57:30] Mariann Sullivan: Get this article. I, I am really confused by this. We'll have to find out more.

[00:57:33] Jasmin Singer: The one that I'm we're about to talk about.

[00:57:36] Mariann Sullivan: the Ridglan

[00:57:36] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. So it's a Wisconsin beagle breeding facility for labs, and as I understand it, it's suing the nonprofit Dane4Dogs over protests and social media posts that expose alleged animal abuse.

[00:57:53] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, and of course I, I did an Animal Law Podcast, interview about this whole case. And it involved, this criminal prosecution against Direct Action Everywhere activists who had gone in and found out the horrific conditions of these beagles who were held in Ridglan Farms. And at the last minute, after two years of prep, and, you know, it takes a lot to prepare for a defense to a criminal prosecution, at the last minute, the DA dropped the charges at the behest of Ridglan Farms who made this bullshit nonsense statement that they were afraid of being, like, attacked or something. They just didn't want it to be publicized. And Dane4Dogs was also involved in the undercover work. I'm not sure exactly who did what, so that happened, and the case was just dismissed in 2024, as this article points out. And then a special prosecutor was appointed just this past February to investigate Ridglan Farms for alleged animal cruelty, illegal animal cruelty.

So the totally, the activists have totally turned the tables. They were being prosecuted for breaking in and allegedly stealing animals. And that got dropped. And then they got a special prosecutor appointed, which was really great, by the court to investigate whether there was animal cruelty going on.

So Ridglan Farms obviously is pissed off, and now they are suing dain for dogs, they're not suing Direct Action Everywhere as far as I know. And some of their employees testified at the evidentiary hearing saying that, that they misrepresented what really happened and they, I guess that they made false statements,

[00:59:31] Jasmin Singer: God,

[00:59:32] Mariann Sullivan: it just means like, I think they're walking right into a disaster.

Like this is just an opportunity to get, bring even more attention to what was really going on at Ridglan Farms. And I don't think there's a whole lot of doubt about what was really going on.

[00:59:46] Jasmin Singer: no.

[00:59:46] Mariann Sullivan: don't know what, I don't know why they would be doing this,

[00:59:49] Jasmin Singer: Well, it looks so,

[00:59:50] Mariann Sullivan: forward to hearing the next steps.

[00:59:52] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, it's like, the lawsuit it's less like a defensive business, and it's more like an attempt to silence criticism, and that always backfires. So,

[01:00:03] Mariann Sullivan: it doesn't always

[01:00:03] Jasmin Singer: all right. It doesn't always backfire.

[01:00:05] Mariann Sullivan: here.

[01:00:06] Jasmin Singer: Let's hope it backfires. So speaking of animal activism, this is, you know, this makes me think a little bit about Yeah.

This is a, feels related to that recent podcast interview we did with some folks with the Animal Policy Alliance from the Humane League. When they were talking about foie gras, because this is foie gras related.

[01:00:30] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. And it's just an interesting approach. It reminds me kind of like anybody who as old as I am and goes back as far the, some of the techniques used by the SHAC campaign. So there's this pizza parlor, it's in Chicago they don't serve foie gras, but they do business with Omni Hotels.

I'm not sure exactly what business I'm, I'm assuming that they're on some kind of list of places you can order takeout from at Omni Hotels, but I could be totally making that up. So, but some kind of business with them. Omni Hotel serves foie gras and so these activists did a campaign of a protesting at the pizza parlor, in which case the owner of the pizza parlor immediately got on the hotel with Omni Hotels and said, this is terrible for me, and get me off that list.

And then invited everybody in for vegan pizza, which I guess they serve vegan pizza. You know, I, I don't know how I feel about this, but I do understand the technique because if these activists tried to protest against the actual perpetrator Omni Hotels, they probably would end up in some, you know, free speech zone three blocks away and then get arrested or whatever.

You know, it's like hard to do a protest and there's not a lot of activists and obviously they could make a big, big splash in front of this pizza parlor at the same time. You know, it's a little uncomfortable, but it seems like it worked out really well. So interesting. What do you think?

[01:01:51] Jasmin Singer: I think that there's a lot of value in some of those more old sort of grassroots efforts that...

[01:01:59] Mariann Sullivan: I don't object to it being grassroots or anything. It's just like doing a protest against, you know, somebody who's just doing business with the actual perpetrator.

[01:02:07] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[01:02:08] Mariann Sullivan: And that's not related to foie gra at all, as far as I can figure out.

[01:02:12] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:13] Mariann Sullivan: Anyway,

[01:02:14] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[01:02:15] Mariann Sullivan: people would be interested to

[01:02:16] Jasmin Singer: I, I, every time you, you say Omni Hotel, I'm brought back to the nineties when I would watch Oprah after school every day at four o'clock. I mean, I was in both high school and college in the nineties, and at the very end, she would say the Omni Hotel! And that's all I keep thinking about

[01:02:36] Mariann Sullivan: why I don't know that?

[01:02:37] Jasmin Singer: because you have a life.

[01:02:39] Mariann Sullivan: I, never watched Oprah.

[01:02:40] Jasmin Singer: I, I I saw like every episode

[01:02:43] Mariann Sullivan: then like, mean of course I've seen like clips from Oprah, but I never sat down and watched a show. I don't really like chat shows anyway,

[01:02:50] Jasmin Singer: that ironic.

[01:02:51] Mariann Sullivan: do. We'll have a bunch more things to do

[01:02:53] Jasmin Singer: Okay. Yeah. You, you have,

[01:02:55] Mariann Sullivan: good.

I

[01:02:56] Jasmin Singer: have, yeah. They, they have been like, your house has started to cave in on one side because they,

[01:03:03] Mariann Sullivan: have a problem with

[01:03:04] Jasmin Singer: you do. You do and, and people send us books all the time.

[01:03:09] Mariann Sullivan: Well, sometimes and sometimes I just feel bad 'cause you know, I'm not. I don't read that fast. I don't read that much. Like sometimes I read them, sometimes I just wish other people would know about them so they could read them. So that's what I'm gonna do. Actually, the first book I wanna talk about is a book I have read, and we recently had Jim Mason on the podcast.

And, uh, he is of course one of the greatest animal activists there is. He wrote a book, um, a long time ago called An Unnatural Order, which was one of the my seminal books that really changed the way I saw, I thought about animals and our relationship to them. And it goes way back in prehistory to talk about how we went so awry in our, um, relationship to animals. And so recently he wrote this new book, it's very short, so it's much less of a commitment than An Unnatural Order, which is not a huge book, but this is very short. It's uh, I think a hundred pages and it's called Madness, the Deep Driver of Our Climate Crisis, Lessons from My Family Farm. And it's wonderful. I think he self-published it. I wish it was going to get more attention than it is. I want everybody who's listening to pay attention to it. 'cause he kind of interweaves these stories I'm talking about, about prehistory and how we ended up like, just going so wrong in how we relate to animals and not understanding animals.

And, he interweaves that with, with stories of him growing up. He grew up on a farm in Missouri, mostly in the forties. Talking about obviously, you know, his childhood extended or his young adulthood is extended into the fifties. And also like it starts out with a story which I'd heard before of a tr traumatic event that happened to him when he saw some pigs being, um, slaughtered and he had to be taken away to his relative's house for several days 'cause he was so deeply traumatized.

But I hadn't realized then that he actually became very used to, uh, you know, the farm culture and dealing with animals and stuff that he does not feel great about now. But he tells these stories that really bring back, like, this wasn't that long ago. I mean, you know, obviously he's still alive.

And, um, it was pre factory farming and, you know, it was really in the fifties, that the factory farming took hold and when it took hold, it took hold really fast. And then of course, he became very involved later in life. You know, he had some, had a tragic loss and, and I that probably influenced him in, in moving to becoming an activist.

And it's great. I highly recommend it. and

[01:05:43] Jasmin Singer: the name again.

[01:05:44] Mariann Sullivan: Madness: The Deep Driver of Our Climate Crisis, Lessons From My Family Farm

[01:05:50] Jasmin Singer: Okay, great. We will link to it in the show notes as well.

[01:05:54] Mariann Sullivan: All right. I have a few other books that I haven't read I should read, but you know, you can only do so much. This is a fascinating book. It's called Creature Needs I'll just read from the back. It's a polyvocal call, which means that there are a lot of different voices, um, contributors to it about animal extinction that harnesses the power of literature and scientific research to stir our hearts toward action and change a collection of new literary works paired with excerpts from recent scientific articles that inspired and informed them. And it really is a fascinating way to do it. They have each, each author, some of them are poets, some of them are authors, like just different, different kind of creative work. I guess they were given, a scientific report on a specific species of animal that is in trouble. And they wrote a creative piece, related to that animal and to the, peril that that faces them.

And it's really a lovely book. It's from the University of Minnesota Press and, this is one that I, you know, I'm really gonna try to put aside to read myself 'cause you can read it in short pieces.

Um, Subhuman is a book, by Emma Hawkinson. the subtitle is A 21st Century Ethic on Animals Collective Liberation and Us All. The back of Cover says, when we accept oppression of some, we feed the oppression of others and we make space for domination driven by false ideas of inferiority and lesser worth. When we discount the inherent preciousness of animals who think and feel we erase precious parts of ourselves. When we consider living beings as livestock, it's no wonder we pillage the unthinking yet irreplaceable living earth. I understand this was, um, Emma is a, a lecturer and writer. She's written for The Guardian, Forbes, et cetera, et cetera. And it's, from what I understand, this book started out as her pandemic project and, you know, I totally wasted the pandemic. She wrote this book. It looks really, it looks

[01:07:47] Jasmin Singer: Wow. A lot of people's pandemic project was to make sourdough bread.

[01:07:52] Mariann Sullivan: right, or drink wine.

[01:07:54] Jasmin Singer: Yeah,

[01:07:55] Mariann Sullivan: that that was me.

[01:07:56] Jasmin Singer: no.

[01:07:58] Mariann Sullivan: our friend, Gretchen Primax sent us this book of poetry by Nicole Brown, um, To Those Who Were Our First Gods, which actually that is really a superb title and very much goes back to Jim Mason's, um, theories about how we felt about animals before we were who we are now. And they were, uh, like. they, recognized that they were like us, but they were so much better than us at so many things.

[01:08:26] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:26] Mariann Sullivan: um, so To Those Who Were Our First Gods really brings that home. It's a book of poetry.

So if you are a fan of poetry, I'm sure anything that Gretchen recommended is going to be terrific To Those Who Were Our First Gods by Nicole Brown.

And she didn't know I was going to do this, but the final book is one of the best books that you can own about, um, about why you should go vegan, how you should go vegan, and it's the book. I imagine most of you are already vegan, but if you're not, this is the book to buy your friends and relatives. It's the Veg News Guide to Being a Fabulous Vegan.

[01:08:59] Jasmin Singer: What?!

[01:09:00] Mariann Sullivan: Look Good, Feel Good, and Do Good in 30 Days by Jasmin Singer and Veg News Magazine. This is,

[01:09:06] Jasmin Singer: why are.

[01:09:06] Mariann Sullivan: Book is so good. It really is. It manages to, you know, it has a Veg News style, so it's bright and breezy and it's got great colors and it's written in Jasmin's signature style of being bright and breezy and, um, and funny and it has lots about food.

It has a few recipes. She didn't write the recipes. Don't worry. And, um, But a lot of stuff about food and, you know, all the techniques of going vegan and somehow it manages to weave in what's happening to animals. So you can kind of trick people. It's for the people in your life who are flirting with it, who are thinking about it. It is the best book of its kind and I'm not just saying that.

[01:09:45] Jasmin Singer: Wow. Thank you.

[01:09:46] Mariann Sullivan: Those are my reviews for the day.

[01:09:48] Jasmin Singer: so nice,

[01:09:49] Mariann Sullivan: that. I enjoyed like going through all those

[01:09:51] Jasmin Singer: I think.

[01:09:52] Mariann Sullivan: I feel like I accomplished a lot and you know, I didn't actually have to read them.

[01:09:56] Jasmin Singer: Well, good job,

[01:09:58] Mariann Sullivan: reading, but you, but, you know, um,

[01:10:01] Jasmin Singer: you're Yeah,

[01:10:02] Mariann Sullivan: such, so much time in a day.

[01:10:03] Jasmin Singer: I get it. I really do. And that's why, you know, I listen to books constantly. I mean, I try and do like five a month that I listen to, but I'm always editing, you know, for my other work. And so my, I can't, I really can't sit there.

[01:10:21] Mariann Sullivan: like if I am going to sit down and read, wanna get away from the animal stuff.

[01:10:25] Jasmin Singer: Right. I get it. I get it.

[01:10:27] Mariann Sullivan: it.

[01:10:28] Jasmin Singer: . Well that was our Hen Report and I'm glad that you stuck with us. Uh, thank you, Sandy, for sticking with us. There, I said her name. We're just really grateful.

[01:10:39] Mariann Sullivan: I never would've guessed. I.

[01:10:40] Jasmin Singer: Well, yeah. And Mariann, I know you have rising anxieties this week as well, so that's exciting.

[01:10:46] Mariann Sullivan: you know, we do have plans about reordering the podcast a bit, but for now, yeah, rising anxiety is gonna follow this. And you know, it's the usual bullshit

[01:10:56] Jasmin Singer: The usual bullshit from the industry with one Mariann Sullivan right after this.