Sanctuaries as Classrooms: Revolutionizing Humane Education with Danielle Hanosh

[00:00:15] Jasmin Singer: Oh, I did it. Welcome back to Our Hen House. Danielle, you were on a few years ago and we're super excited that you're joining us today because we love everything you're doing, and you get to be our first YouTube guest.

[00:00:29] Danielle Hanosh: I'm so excited. I'm honored. Thank you for having me back. I didn't get the pink glasses memo, so I apologize about

[00:00:36] Jasmin Singer: Oh, we're gonna have to talk to Vicki about that. Danielle is the co-founder and executive director of LEAP and is also the co-founder of Blackberry Creek Farm Animal Sanctuary in Northern California. And because that doesn't keep her busy, she also serves on the Board of the Wildlife Conservation NGO, Women for Wolves.

As a lesbian, I am a woman for a wolf. I just wanted to go on the record saying that. So. Amazing. Ooh, I love it. So with a, a teaching credential, MA in education, a decade of experience as a public school teacher and 10 years experience running a nonprofit farm animal sanctuary, she's so excited to be using her background to ensure that children and teenagers across the country have access to hands-on humane education and leadership development.

I know you do a lot of other things too, Danielle. You're a ghost writer, you're a storyteller, and you're the author of several children's books about animals. So my first question for you is, what don't you do? And I do want an answer to that.

[00:01:42] Danielle Hanosh: Well.

[00:01:43] Mariann Sullivan: My first question is, I wanna know the names of the books you've ghost written, but I guess that's the kind of thing you're not supposed to say.

[00:01:48] Jasmin Singer: No, I.

[00:01:49] Danielle Hanosh: So I ghost write blogs for companies. My former husband is a web designer and he kept me on, which I'm very grateful for 'cause it gives me extra income to run the sanctuary. And so I just write for the companies he markets for. But as far as the books that I've published, those are not anonymous.

I've done three. So one is about disabled animals. It's a whimsical, kind of fun fictional story about Judy, our cross beaked Hen, and it's called The Very Ugly Chicken,

about a little girl who decides to leave four H and start her own sanctuary when she starts rescuing disabled animals.

So, I have What Are Llamas For, which was inspired by a little boy that actually visited my sanctuary and asked what llamas were for. And so we talk about how animals are actually not for us at all, but they are for their own purposes. And

[00:02:38] Jasmin Singer: it.

[00:02:39] Danielle Hanosh: because I deal with a lot of loss at the sanctuary, as you guys can imagine with, with the animals we rescue, kind of death is ever present. And I've also become very aware that so many people deal with pet loss, you know, people that have reached out to me. And so, my board member actually illustrated this one and it's called The Other Side.

I have a copy of it right here. So it's for adults as well, but

[00:03:00] Jasmin Singer: Beautiful.

[00:03:01] Danielle Hanosh: about your pet going over the Rainbow Bridge and just kind of how

[00:03:04] Jasmin Singer: Wow,

[00:03:04] Danielle Hanosh: with that. So thanks for asking. Those are my books.

[00:03:07] Jasmin Singer: That's beautiful. But I still wanna answer to my question. What don't you do?

[00:03:11] Danielle Hanosh: Oh, I don't do enough. well, I'm getting better. I, I don't do enough things for myself as far as free time goes. I've really been working this last year on balancing work and, personal life a little bit better. I'm getting better at that,

[00:03:24] Jasmin Singer: Okay.

[00:03:25] Danielle Hanosh: tends to be,

[00:03:26] Mariann Sullivan: considering

[00:03:27] Danielle Hanosh: thank you.

[00:03:28] Mariann Sullivan: in the past two years. I mean, I think we spoke to you around, maybe it was three years ago

[00:03:32] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:03:33] Mariann Sullivan: you have done really a lot. So if you're managing to find some, some work-life balance

[00:03:38] Danielle Hanosh: I'm trying. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:03:41] Mariann Sullivan: interviewed you LEAP was actually pretty much just getting started.

There were just a few sanctuaries that were participating and, some people may have missed that interview or maybe don't remember it, can you just kind of start with, reiterating what LEAP is and,

[00:03:54] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah.

[00:03:55] Mariann Sullivan: we can get into what's happened since then.

[00:03:56] Danielle Hanosh: Sure. Absolutely. So LEAP stands for Leaders for Ethics Animals and the Planet. is its own nonprofit that is run essentially right now at sanctuaries across the country. We are now launching in Canada this fall as well, so I'm super excited to share that you guys are the first to hear. Uh, we

[00:04:15] Jasmin Singer: Ooh.

[00:04:16] Danielle Hanosh: put that on social media yet, but we're interviewing sanctuaries to be partners.

And so essentially it's a humane education program. We started with high school, now we have middle school as well, so it runs sixth through 12th grade. It's a mix of both classroom curriculum and hands-on workshops, working with animals, learning about of course, the farmed animals and the farmed animal care and welfare aspect, but also they learn about wildlife conservation, climate change, our food system and how those are all interconnected.

[00:04:45] Jasmin Singer: And just so that I'm clear, I remember talking to you about how there was an interesting mix of students coming into the program, but they were definitely not all animal rights activists. Is that still the case?

[00:04:58] Danielle Hanosh: Yes. Very much still the case. We tend to brand ourselves at Blackberry Creek as a sanctuary for non-vegan because we want those people to come learn, right?

Like, um, most people were not born vegan. I certainly wasn't. We of course welcome the animal rights activist kids and we love that they have a venue to meet other like-minded young people. That's really important. As you guys know from being in this community. It can be ostracizing at times, especially for a high school kid.

[00:05:23] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

[00:05:23] Danielle Hanosh: I. but we welcome everyone. We really want to give those students who are in traditional agriculture programs like four H and FFA, the opportunity for something different. If they want to become a vet, if they just want experience working with animals, there's not a lot of other alternatives for them, so we welcome those students. You know, anybody who wants to learn about the interconnectedness of everything that we teach. And it's been really cool to have a lot of different kinds of students get to know each other.

[00:05:51] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I wanna really talk about four H and how LEAP differs from it, but kind of to set the scene. I think if you didn't grow up in a rural community, I only know about four H because of people talking about it in the animal rights venue. I don't know that much about it. I know it's a big deal, but can you just kind of describe it, how big it is, how it works, and, I mean, what I've always heard, which I assume it's true, like one of its main purposes, is to kind of enculturate kids into seeing animals the way animal ag wants them to. And I guess while you're at it, you might as well talk about FFA too, because I don't really know the difference.

[00:06:25] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah,

[00:06:26] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

[00:06:26] Danielle Hanosh: There's some differences. They were both started a long time ago, and if you go online in our strategic plan, we have a little bit of more detailed background on each of them. They're not all bad as far as what they teach. Like especially four H, has a lot of other areas they're branching out into from leadership development to stem. They're really encouraging young girls to go into science, math, and technology.

There's gardening, you know, there's all these good things about it. And especially with FFA four H as well, they were FFA as future Farmers of America. So it was literally. You know, started in the early 19 hundreds as a, way to teach students how to become farmers and get into agriculture, both animal and non-animal. And that's how the program started.

Again, FFA does have some other programs where you don't have to slaughter your animal at the end. But the culture, there's a lot of pressure, not only from the teachers but from other students. You are definitely seen as odd if you are someone who wants to, you know, rehome your animals at the end of the program rather than auction them and compete. In a sense, I think it's a leadership program, but there's a very misguided part of it that we don't need to teach anymore, which is how to become an animal agriculturalist.

[00:07:42] Mariann Sullivan: both FFA and four H have the program where they raise an animal and

[00:07:46] Danielle Hanosh: Yes.

[00:07:46] Mariann Sullivan: expected to show it and bring it to slaughter.

[00:07:49] Danielle Hanosh: Correct. Yes.

[00:07:50] Mariann Sullivan: I didn't realize they were both... and I think you made such a great point that we always have to remember that we don't hate farmers.

[00:07:57] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah, exactly.

[00:07:59] Mariann Sullivan: farmers grow our food and we

[00:08:00] Danielle Hanosh: Yes,

[00:08:01] Mariann Sullivan: as much as anybody.

We're

[00:08:02] Danielle Hanosh: yes.

[00:08:03] Jasmin Singer: yeah.

[00:08:04] Danielle Hanosh: Right,

[00:08:04] Mariann Sullivan: easy to slip into that.

There are so many people in the animal ag industry who are eager to portray us like that. I mean, it's not farming that's the problem.

[00:08:12] Danielle Hanosh: right.

[00:08:12] Mariann Sullivan: ag.

[00:08:13] Danielle Hanosh: Exactly.

[00:08:14] Jasmin Singer: jump into something you just said though. You were talking about how like they don't all do bad work or, they don't have like, bad intentions. Certainly. And it just, it just made me think that that is the case for so many animal related things that kids are exposed to, like zoos for, for example, or, horseback riding.

I think that there's. obviously so many people who just love their horses and, and yet there's just, I don't know if it's like a philosophical difference that is the core of the difference, but I'd love if you could speak to that. But also, Danielle, if you could tell us like are these kids damaged at all or are we just projecting our like vegan ethos onto them that like, you can't go through that and come out unscathed?

Is that true? I.

[00:09:05] Danielle Hanosh: I, I don't think there's a clear answer to that, but let me explain, you know, my experience with those kids, I think as far as the ethical piece that you are talking about, you know, the horseback riding the zoos, like, I mean, I grew up as a kid that liked, I, I wasn't like an equestrian, but I liked to ride horses and I liked to go to the zoo.

Like I have always loved animals. I loved Marine World when I was a kid, which in northern California was like kind of a SeaWorld slash zoo. I mean, I wanted to be like an elephant trainer when I was five, right? So I think in a sense you get kids sometimes that join FFA and four H that really do love animals. And as far as coming out unscathed. think that there's two different sets of, of kids. I think for the most part they become desensitized. And that's what I've seen the most often. I think for the most part, they really do believe that they love their animals that they send to slaughter. And I think in the beginning, especially the kids that grow up in that world, especially where their parents have been in FFA and four H and it's kind of a family tradition. The kids cry. When they're young, the first time they do this, the second time they do it, they don't usually want to let go of their animal. But, the culture kind of pushes, it's the circle of life and you're feeding people and you're giving back to your community. And so in that way, they typically become desensitized to what actually is happening to their animal. Now, not all students come out of it that way, and we have had several students leave FFA and four H and, you know, not want to participate and have actually gone vegetarian or vegan after what they've seen and then joined LEAP, which is great.

There used to not be another alternative for those students. So I think a lot more kids would choose an alternative if that was an option. Because I certainly don't think that whole process of desensitizing them is good for their psyche or their emotional wellbeing. Mm-hmm.

[00:11:02] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I've told this story before, but I'm sorry to interrupt, Mariann. I just remember taking my niece to a sanctuary when she was four and she's not vegan and she was petting a Turkey, and it's possible I told you this story when I interviewed you last, but she said. Your feathers are soft. We don't eat you.

We only eat turkeys with hard feathers. Or like, I saw her brain trying to make sense of it, and then the sanctuary person who was there was like brilliant with her. I, I, of course, was like, I, I, you know, I melted and then the person there took over and Yeah. But anyway. Mariann, I interrupted you. I'm sorry.

[00:11:47] Mariann Sullivan: no, that's all right. I think that's a really good story. I just, the struggle, I mean, it makes you almost feel like what animal agriculture and eating meat does to uS is so profound.

[00:11:58] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah.

[00:11:59] Mariann Sullivan: at that early age,

[00:12:00] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah.

[00:12:01] Mariann Sullivan: together these huge issues about life and death and, and love and,

[00:12:05] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah.

[00:12:06] Mariann Sullivan: and, and it's turning us in a bad direction. so LEAP, how's it different and what do the kids get out of LEAP that they might also be getting out of four H but in a different way.

[00:12:18] Danielle Hanosh: Sure. So, you know, some of the things that we have in common that we do think are great in four H and FFA is the leadership component. Kids learn about public speaking. They learn about animal care, right? These kids do typically take very wonderful care of their animals. besides the fact that they aren't usually allowed to let them out of a small pen, you know, they don't have enrichment, or much of it. I think the leadership component and the animal care component are something that we take very seriously, it's just in a very different setting. We have a variety of, of different things we do in the program. So the sixth through eighth graders, that's a afterschool program, but it's a two hour, twice a month. So every other week, afterschool meeting, the kids get to know each other.

I. And they learn about those things. They learn about how to be leaders in their community. They learn about ethics in general. One thing that all the students do from sixth to 12th grade is they, throughout the year create their own personal code of ethics where they have to explore these issues, right?

Like, how do we feel about zoos? How do we feel about horseback riding? How do we feel about eating animals? We present them the information that most of us didn't have growing up about alternatives to those things and why we, as you know, the LEAP teachers don't choose to participate in those things, and kind of give them then another opportunity to work with animals.

If you love horses, you can work with them in a sanctuary or a rescue setting. We also really connect it to the bigger issues. So the classroom curriculum part talks a lot about the intersection of human and animal rights. And, for the students, I think it really gives them, we hope, a very well-rounded idea of what goes on here. Whereas in FFA, they may be typically focused on solely on animal care and like learning the body parts, learning the cuts of meat, learning how to, dock tails and crop ears and do all those things. At a sanctuary we're talking about the other issues. So the health issues, for example, that large pigs face when they're saved from slaughter, you know, pigs are, typically killed at six months old, as you both know. So what happens when your pig is five and weighs 600 pounds and needs, you know, a hoof treatment? How do you do that? and why are they so big?

And we talk about the role that humans have played in that. You know, I could go on with examples, but I think in general, LEAP is a program for kids to get the information and explore these issues at a younger age because most of us didn't have the opportunity to do that. And I think many of us would've made different life choices early on. And like you guys were saying, we're trying to not have it be so normalized. We talk about animal testing, we talk about animal law and how animals don't have rights like humans do, and what does that mean for roadside zoos and for entertainment venues and for laboratory animals. So we go pretty deep, especially with the year two high school students, into the animal legal realm. And that's been really eyeopening for many of them.

[00:15:06] Mariann Sullivan: is it a two year program? Is that.

[00:15:09] Danielle Hanosh: school program is two years.

I'd love to do more, but it seems like logistically the sanctuaries are so busy themselves. It's hard for them to host more than two years of kids and then the middle school program.

[00:15:18] Mariann Sullivan: curious about the logistics.

[00:15:20] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah, yeah,

[00:15:21] Mariann Sullivan: there's a lot of lessons, but there's also animal care,

[00:15:23] Danielle Hanosh: yeah.

[00:15:24] Mariann Sullivan: place at the sanctuaries. Are there things that take place elsewhere or online or just like, what would be the process of, you know, a kid who joined up? Like

[00:15:31] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah.

[00:15:32] Mariann Sullivan: be like?

[00:15:33] Danielle Hanosh: The typical traditional year long program is, let's say they choose the first Saturday of the month. So all of the kids commit to coming during that time from September through May.

So it runs through the school year. It's usually a five hour day. So they have an hour and a half classroom lesson time when they get there.

But we provide all the curriculum where we really try to cover a lot of different topics. So. Intro is of course just ethics in general.

Then we cover farmed animal welfare. We cover the legal rights of animals, climate change and eco anxiety, and how they can help with ocean conservation.

[00:16:06] Mariann Sullivan: who, who's giving the lessons?

[00:16:08] Danielle Hanosh: I designed the high school curriculum and then we push it out to the sanctuaries and the sanctuaries each choose a teacher. So typically if they have a humane educator on staff, it's that person. Sometimes it's a volunteer that commits to run LEAP for the year, but it just depends.

[00:16:22] Mariann Sullivan: For people out there who are thinking of volunteer opportunities who might be teachers, this would be a great

[00:16:28] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah.

[00:16:28] Mariann Sullivan: opportunity at shelters who don't have that kind of staff.

[00:16:31] Danielle Hanosh: It would be great because that's the biggest obstacle we've run into so far is staffing at the sanctuaries. Of course, like I just said, you know, we have the classroom time and then that's about an hour and a half, and then the kids have a vegan lunch. So we do some fun cooking activities with them, vegan baking activities as well. So they have a lunch together. And then the afternoon is spent in the hands-on workshops. And so it might be the chicken care workshop where they're do learning how to do health checks and learning how to pick up chickens safely. It might be a pollinator garden workshop where they're learning the importance of pollinators and rewilding the land in order to have more biodiversity. The sanctuaries get to choose which workshops they want to implement based on which kinds of animals they have at their

[00:17:11] Mariann Sullivan: take

[00:17:11] Danielle Hanosh: particular location. Yeah.

[00:17:13] Mariann Sullivan: do

[00:17:14] Danielle Hanosh: lot of adults have said that.

[00:17:15] Mariann Sullivan: ed?

[00:17:15] Danielle Hanosh: I know. I feel like we need to expand in into adult ed. Um, yeah, it is, it's really fun. A lot of adults have said, I really wish this was around, which makes us feel like hopefully we're doing something right. But, the staffing, is difficult because as you guys know, sanctuaries are nonprofits.

They're strapped for funds, they're strapped for staff.

[00:17:31] Mariann Sullivan: Of

[00:17:31] Danielle Hanosh: Their staff are wearing, you know, 25 hats already. So if there's anyone out there who is, you know, we, we do require that the LEAP head teacher be an ethical vegan because we want them to be aligned with what they're teaching.

[00:17:43] Mariann Sullivan: think there are too many non-vegan listening. Danielle, we're pretty

[00:17:47] Danielle Hanosh: Well, great. Um, yeah, I mean, you can c you know, a lot of the volunteers at sanctuaries aren't necessarily all vegan, but

[00:17:53] Mariann Sullivan: Right.

[00:17:54] Danielle Hanosh: who's teaching the curriculum just to really fully understand it makes sense.

[00:17:57] Mariann Sullivan: on board.

[00:17:58] Danielle Hanosh: But yeah, I mean, we have such a need for staffing to help a lot of the sanctuaries that are short staffed.

[00:18:04] Mariann Sullivan: think it's a great volunteer opportunity. I mean, if somebody happens to live near, you

[00:18:08] Danielle Hanosh: Yes.

[00:18:09] Mariann Sullivan: not, not that traveling 'cause it's extensive enough to be a real, challenge and

[00:18:14] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah,

[00:18:15] Mariann Sullivan: But,

[00:18:15] Danielle Hanosh: it is.

[00:18:16] Mariann Sullivan: it's not forever and it's not every day and,

[00:18:18] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah, it's once a month essentially.

[00:18:20] Mariann Sullivan: yeah,

[00:18:20] Danielle Hanosh: the kids, the kids are also required to do volunteer hours every month helping animals or the environment. So some of them choose to do those at the sanctuary. You know, they volunteer at the sanctuary for four hours a month. we've had all kinds of projects.

We've had kids start programs where they go read to dogs and cats in shelters. We've had plant-based food drives for local food banks around the holidays that kids have organized. we've had like river cleanup days where they go pick up trash and try to protect the native wildlife in their area.

So they get really creative and that's the fun leadership piece is they get to start building their own projects that they care about throughout the program.

[00:18:55] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, that's great.

[00:18:56] Jasmin Singer: So like,

[00:18:57] Mariann Sullivan: out of it other than this great experience? I'm sorry, Jasmin, did you have,

[00:19:00] Jasmin Singer: go ahead.

[00:19:01] Mariann Sullivan: finish this thought 'cause I know there's a scholarship incentive,

[00:19:05] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah.

[00:19:06] Mariann Sullivan: like for four H or FFA, they get school credit, don't they? Have you managed to pull that

[00:19:10] Danielle Hanosh: Um, that depends. So some four H and FFA programs, especially I think FFA more so than I know about around my area are run through a school. So they can take like animal science as their biology type, you know, fulfillment for those units. But if FFA or four H is run as an afterschool club or an offsite club, they do not get school credit for that. So, obviously we're not contracted through high school, so we don't have the ability to give credit, nor do I think the program that would be.

[00:19:41] Mariann Sullivan: huge, uh, endeavor to get that all over the country in different schools. ' cause

[00:19:46] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah.

[00:19:47] Mariann Sullivan: requirements can be really, really tough to meet.

[00:19:49] Danielle Hanosh: They can, and I mean, we do align our lessons with the standards. So I was a teacher in California, so we use the common core standards here, most of the country does. So our lessons are aligned, but going once a month for five hours would not be enough to fulfill an entire high school curriculum. So the scholarship program's actually changing next year. We've been. kind of experimenting with what we wanna do with that. And so how it's working right now and, and we've done for the first two years nationwide, is the students have the option to participate in a competitive research project at the end of the year. We have a theme every year, so this year is on ethical dilemmas and they present this research project that they work on independently. Then our board reviews those and we use rubrics and we score them. And you know, the top 10 or so kids, depending on how much scholarship money we have, get a scholarship.

[00:20:40] Mariann Sullivan: Okay.

[00:20:41] Danielle Hanosh: Originally, the thought behind it was that many FFAs and four H students are earning money selling their animals. And so sometimes parents are resistant to let them leave those programs because they're earning money for an internship or college or work experience or whatever they're gonna go do next. And so next year, in the fall of 25, we're changing that up a little bit. And the money that we would have put towards scholarships is now going to go to help these students that complete the second year of the high school program get into internships and fellowships with like-minded organizations that they choose. So for example, places like A LDF, places like World Wildlife Foundation, places like Mercy for Animals. New Roots Institute has a great fellowship for kids to continue in food system leadership. And so a lot of those programs have some kind of cost with them. You know, they're their internship where they're not paid and it actually costs money for the kids to do it. Or you know, they have to fly somewhere to do a hands-on summer internship. So we would be contributing to that for those kids that successfully complete.

[00:21:45] Mariann Sullivan: great.

[00:21:45] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah, it's like we're, we're hoping it's a way to keep those kids not only involved with LEAP, like they can also come back and be, we have a youth advisory council so they can join that when they graduate. But we wanna focus on their interests, you know, if they're interested in getting into veterinary medicine, how can we help further that rather than just handing them a check. So we're gonna hopefully provide money with more mentorship.

[00:22:07] Jasmin Singer: I wanna focus on the sanctuaries for a minute because we've been talking a lot about the, the students and the kids. Obviously you know the sanctuaries that you've been dealing with, especially at the beginning, and you know that they're doing a great job, but you're expanding beyond places that you might be personally familiar with.

So how do you find them and, and how do you make sure that your requirements are being met?

[00:22:33] Danielle Hanosh: That's a great question, and one we spent a lot of time

[00:22:36] Mariann Sullivan: I

[00:22:36] Danielle Hanosh: kind of hashing out in our early board meetings and as we've expanded, so we do have sanctuary guidelines as far as, you know, like I said, the lead teacher needs to be an ethical vegan. We have safety things in place that they need to complete for us.

So, just like if you're working in a classroom with students, they have to be fingerprinted. The lead teacher, they have to go like a background check, essentially. They have to take a online CPR class that we pay for, but the lead teacher needs to be certified in that. They take a sexual harassment training, so they have to kind of hit all these safety marks originally before we even accept them into the program. They also have to have general liability insurance. That's the safety piece. The fidelity to curriculum piece is a little bit more challenging to measure. And so we do vet all the sanctuaries pretty thoroughly before we, you know, either invite them into the program or if they apply before we accept them, we try to do a site visit.

If it's not me because it's too far away, it is usually someone that's a volunteer for LEAP or that's one of our board members that lives in a different area that will try to go onsite during the year and see how they're teaching it, see how it's being run. We also have surveys that the students and parents fill out where we hope to get some information about how they feel things are going and what's being taught and how welcome they feel and things like that. Of course, we vet the sanctuaries ourselves as far as, you know, doing research on if they are in fact a vegan sanctuary. They're not serving animals at fundraisers and things like that, which of course, you know, occasionally has happened.

[00:24:08] Mariann Sullivan: does happen.

[00:24:09] Danielle Hanosh: yeah, luckily we haven't encountered it yet, but I have one just up here near me who a crab feed every year, and they're a animal sanctuary.

And so, you know, we, pay attention, we do our homework on them, and if there is ever an issue, maybe they post a photo of a family member horseback riding or, or something like that. You know, we do address it with them to make sure that it is in alignment with what we are asking, and as you guys know, there's so many ethical dilemmas.

It's a great opportunity to talk about those.

[00:24:39] Mariann Sullivan: Absolutely are, are they ever nervous about bringing in a lot of kids who, you know, are not animal rights activists? I mean, I know every sanctuary has employees who are not vegan. I

[00:24:47] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:48] Mariann Sullivan: because the, there just aren't enough vegans out

[00:24:51] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:52] Mariann Sullivan: who, who know enough about, how to handle pigs to, um, fill all the slots.

[00:24:57] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah.

[00:24:58] Mariann Sullivan: uh, but are they nervous about bringing in this component of, you know, kids who, you know. Are not vegan. Don't intend to go vegan. Like that's not really why they're there.

[00:25:07] Danielle Hanosh: You know, I think they're thrilled. I haven't actually encountered that at all. I've had some sanctuaries nervous about hosting kids, period. 'cause they've never taught before. And they're like, ah, you know, 20 middle schoolers like this is overwhelming. Um.

[00:25:21] Mariann Sullivan: of kids myself, so

[00:25:22] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah, it's, it's more been that, and I, I don't think, we haven't had any incidents with Kids are choosing to do this program. So whether or not they're vegan, they're typically animal lovers who are interested in learning more, interested in broadening their horizon. And the parents do fill out a, a safety waiver at the beginning that also has a little preview and a contract saying that they're okay with us talking to their kids about factory farming and about animal agriculture, and of course it's age appropriate.

What we're showing to sixth graders is very different than what we're talking about with the 12th graders. but I think they know what they're getting into and I think that most of them are really open to that. And that's been really neat to see. So.

[00:26:03] Mariann Sullivan: there are a lot of really strong friendships that come out of this because adolescents are just starving for, you know, finding new friends and getting close to new people and, you know, to, to be a person who cares about animals a lot at that age, you know, at any age is kind of, can be alienating.

[00:26:20] Danielle Hanosh: Yes, absolutely. It's hard to find your people.

[00:26:24] Mariann Sullivan: find their people.

[00:26:25] Danielle Hanosh: It is, and for adults as well. I think even volunteers at the sanctuaries have found, community in that. We have several sanctuaries where they've gone through the program. The kids are graduating from LEAP this year, and some of them are graduating from high school. At Unity Farm Sanctuary in Massachusetts has just been like a phenomenal place for kids for LEAP. They're highly motivated to do, you know, above and beyond. They just took their LEAP students to Harvard to go to an animal law conference. and they have such strong friendships that have come out of there. It's really neat to see. They actually hired two of the young women who are a junior and a senior to work at the sanctuary and have part-time jobs there.

So it's really been fulfilling for us as you know, the founders of LEAP and kind of the board to see what the sanctuaries are doing with it. It's incredible and we are so grateful for them.

[00:27:12] Jasmin Singer: Hmm. That's so nice to, I mean, it just sounds like there are so many different aspects of this that are fulfilling to so many different people. Tell us a little bit about how the program has changed you.

[00:27:27] Danielle Hanosh: Well, I think, you know, running a sanctuary, I love, I'm like the kind of person that could spend all day with the animals at the sanctuary. So I love the animal care piece and I loved teaching as well when I was in the classroom, but I always felt a pull towards, I. moving away from teaching academia and into teaching kids what I was passionate about, which is being outside with the animals and learning how to help. so I think in a way it's really broadened my horizon about how many animals we can impact. You guys know if you start a sanctuary, you can rescue a finite number of animals and provide them with lifelong care. And yes, they can be amazing ambassadors, and our animals certainly are, to reach people. But I think seeing how LEAP has had a ripple effect, and I think that's been the thing that has really stuck with me is I'm always struggling. You know, I'm doing all these things like you guys said, and it's like, how can I make the biggest difference? I think we've found that path with LEAP, I hope. it's still fairly small.

We have 18 sanctuaries participating. We have over 30 who are interested in joining next year, which is incredible. But it's also funding, right? We are providing stipends for all these kids to have lunches. We're providing t-shirts. We're providing the curriculum for free. And so, you know, the more we can get funded to do this, the more kids can join.

[00:28:46] Jasmin Singer: But

[00:28:46] Danielle Hanosh: really the bigger ripple effect it will have in their communities. That's what I've really taken away from it.

[00:28:51] Mariann Sullivan: A lot of what you just said really reminded me of, I don't think this rhetoric is really out there that much anymore, but the effective altruism movement, which controls a lot of funding in

[00:29:02] Danielle Hanosh: Yes.

[00:29:02] Mariann Sullivan: and you know, does unbelievably, I mean, has brought so much money into the movement,

[00:29:06] Danielle Hanosh: Yes.

[00:29:07] Mariann Sullivan: period where they were just totally down on sanctuaries.

Like

[00:29:10] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah.

[00:29:11] Mariann Sullivan: as if all the sanctuaries did was save the animals who were there, which is not nothing, but they were saying, no, you need, a bigger purpose. I think sanctuaries have always had that,

[00:29:20] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah.

[00:29:21] Mariann Sullivan: this program really allows sanctuaries to show for possible funders who care about impact as funders should,

[00:29:29] Danielle Hanosh: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:29] Mariann Sullivan: like a sanctuary, can have an enormous amount of impact.

I mean, the just that. Personal connection. I mean, this is how a lot of people learn and change.

[00:29:39] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah. Yeah. You can't, reach everybody without that personal impact. Like, yes, the graphic videos reach some people, right? And that that's a certain audience and that's important, but also the more gentle approach of meeting the animals and learning about it in that way is also really important.

We see that a lot. You know, I was talking earlier about sanctuaries that are having trouble with funding staff. It is still a big problem in the animal funding world, is that people have stopped funding sanctuaries. So many of the sanctuaries that used to have more robust education programs have had to cut back their education, ironically, because

[00:30:13] Mariann Sullivan: crazy.

[00:30:14] Danielle Hanosh: have animals to feed and to provide ve.

[00:30:16] Mariann Sullivan: You can't cut back

[00:30:18] Danielle Hanosh: You

[00:30:18] Mariann Sullivan: animal care. I

[00:30:19] Danielle Hanosh: You can't. No. Especially as they get older, my guys, you know, I'm not actively rescuing anymore. I have 56 animals and they are all getting older and they are staying here until they pass. And I am focused on providing them with an incredible life and care. But yes, unfortunately, even a lot of the big sanctuaries, they've lost funding because of those funders moving away. So they've had to really cut back on the education programs because everything they have has to go to maintaining their existing animal care. Which is frustrating for them because

[00:30:49] Mariann Sullivan: to hear.

[00:30:49] Danielle Hanosh: yeah, they really know that education's the way to go, is one reason, you know, we, we make LEAP free for the sanctuaries.

They have to provide the teacher. Hopefully they can get volunteers to do that, but, you know, we don't wanna be charging people for, for curriculum or materials.

[00:31:05] Mariann Sullivan: had mentioned that people who are interested and find this a really intriguing volunteer opportunity can pursue those teaching opportunities. Are there other ways that people can help?

[00:31:13] Danielle Hanosh: There's a few ways. So I think the teaching opportunities are great, and I wanna preface that by saying, even if you're not a teacher, if you don't wanna be up in front of the kids, like. They need people to help make the lunches every month, right. To go pick up the groceries, to work on some of the materials.

They kids do enrichment activities with the animals. So the volunteer opportunities are there for people that don't wanna teach. I'll say that. Funding is of course, huge. Right now we do have, primarily, most of our funding is from foundations and grants, which has been amazing for getting us started. if individual donors want to contribute, that's incredibly helpful because essentially the more money we have, the more sanctuaries we're able to onboard and the more kids we're able to reach. Like I said, we do cover the cost for each sanctuary so people can donate on the website. We have big day giving coming up, which is this Thursday, but you can still donate through that link on our website. That's a local giving day here. And then of course, just people spreading the word about LEAP, like what, what you guys are doing as far as interviewing me, I think it's really important that we get the word out there to people who do care about not only farmed animal welfare and veganism, but also just caring about kids getting outside, kids, learning about nature, kids caring about animals, realizing how ecosystems work and realizing the benefit that we as humans can have on all different kinds of species. And we talk a lot, you know, with the kids about, they come in with these preconceived notions about, you know, grass fed beef is better. And then we talk about, well, let's talk about, you know, what that does to the climate and the forest and the endangered species, and not to mention the cows that are still slaughtered. So I think just spreading that awareness. If you know kids, have them apply. And sharing what we're doing. Hopefully We get a lot of people on board to support in that way. Word of mouth, recruiting students and getting more sanctuaries involved.

[00:33:00] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. When you think about how hard it is when you're a kid just to learn the stuff that people are trying to teach you,

[00:33:06] Danielle Hanosh: Yeah.

[00:33:07] Mariann Sullivan: here trying to teach them stuff that everybody else is trying to hide from them.

[00:33:11] Danielle Hanosh: Yes,

[00:33:12] Mariann Sullivan: I mean, that's, it's really, which is what I mean, you mentioned that before Jasmin, how long it took to become aware of what was really

[00:33:19] Danielle Hanosh: yes.

[00:33:19] Mariann Sullivan: mean, what, how old was I when I realized that, cows had to have babies in order to, to

[00:33:24] Danielle Hanosh: Oh yeah,

[00:33:24] Mariann Sullivan: give

[00:33:25] Danielle Hanosh: in my late twenties for sure. Like, But I will say as far as the middle and high schoolers, they're at a great age for that because they are wanting to question authority. Just naturally all of us do at that age. They want to see if what people are telling them is really what's happening and what's being hidden from them. And they're very passionate, I'd say, especially the younger students. They are so passionate about what's fair and what's not fair, I think exposing them to like the truth about the dairy industry in an age appropriate way. It's a great age to learn about that. So they're very open. I get really excited to see kids who are like, oh my gosh, I'm never drinking milk again.

[00:34:00] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. That is amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining us again. I I hope that it's not as long until we talk to you next as it was this time. But tell our listeners how they can follow you online so that they can support your efforts.

[00:34:16] Danielle Hanosh: Thank you guys so much for having me. It's wonderful to be back. So we have social media accounts. We also have a website. So the website is leapforanimals.org. Then our social media handle on, Instagram is LEAP with the number four animals, and you can find us at LEAP for animals on Facebook as well.

Starting this fall, we hope to have a student led TikTok where they are out creating videos and showing what they're learning at the sanctuaries with the animals. So stay tuned for that.

[00:34:46] Jasmin Singer: Amazing. Thank you so much Danielle, and thank you to everyone who is listening We really appreciate you and thanks so much for caring about changing the world for animals.