In the Room Where it Happens: How Robert Grillo Confronts Animal Agriculture’s Power Brokers

[00:00:03] Jasmin Singer: I am so excited that you are here, and I wanna tell our listeners a little bit about you. Robert Grillo is, to say the least, an influential activist and an author and a speaker who is dedicated to transforming our food system to a plant-based model. Through his leadership of the grassroots organization Free From Harm, which you've probably heard of. As a fearless advocate, he strategically organizes actions and events targeting key decision makers whose policies impact billions of animals, consumers, and the planet's future.

That's a lot of responsibility. Robert, how are you feeling? Like, do your shoulders hurt from all that weight on them?

[00:00:46] RobertGrillo: Well, I get up at three in the morning every morning and watch TV for two hours. No, I'm kidding. Um, I do have some sleepless nights, but for the most part, I mean, I really enjoy what I do and it's nerve [00:01:00] wracking sometimes, but, that's how we grow, right? I mean, when we push ourselves a little bit further beyond what our comfort zone is and, and try to explore what we could become. And so that's kind of for me, what this process is about. And for a lot of other people that join us, I think.

[00:01:17] Mariann Sullivan: I think that you push yourselves, everybody with Free From Harm, further than most of us do in a really, really fearless way. I know you've been at this for a while and I'm not sure that it's always right to start every interview at the beginning of someone's story, but I think that does fit for you because I think it would help us a lot to hear about your evolution as an activist, starting like back when you began and how you have evolved into the kind of activism that you do now.

[00:01:43] RobertGrillo: Yeah, I'll give you the Reader's Digest version. So in 2009, I guess I decided that I was done with doing my freelance work. I was working at ad agencies around Chicago, you know, three months here, six months there, [00:02:00] two weeks. Anybody who's worked in the ad, like ad agencies or branding agencies, you know how crazy it is.

It's just a crazy environment and I just got, I was done with it and I became vegan. I was really interested in trying to find ways that I could contribute to the cause and I decided, well, I could take some of that marketing and creative stuff that I learned and create a web presence and a social media presence and try to give to the cause that way, create a presence online.

And in the beginning it was kind of funny because I think, you know, now that I look back on it, I think we kind of by default look at activism as just outreach and education.

it's all about outreach and education, and we just need to reach enough people and do enough outreach and then somehow, some way we're gonna reach a tipping point. It's just gonna happen.

We don't know how, we don't know when, [00:03:00] but it was almost like groping in the dark when I look back on it now. And I think what I've learned, like since that time through the years was just how much more there is to activism.

And I learned that because I started participating in other movements. Doing the work that other social movements were doing and learning how they organize people and actions, and I just learned a ton from that and realized that there was a lot more to what we needed to do.

[00:03:33] Mariann Sullivan: You've really shifted from trying to persuade individuals, as you pointed out, education and outreach to trying to persuade policy makers. Can you just explain, I mean, the answer may seem obvious because it was just so frustrating and it was like kind of being in the dark about where the outcomes were, but what led you to this belief that there was a way to persuade policy makers to make change when individuals were not pushing for it in large numbers.

[00:03:59] RobertGrillo: Well, [00:04:00] I think, if we really look at how other social movements build momentum and make progress, it's hard not to see that they have to use a variety of tactics and they have to create kind of a moral crisis and an energy and a momentum that inspires people. 'cause if you don't inspire people, you can't do it.

And what that led us to realize was that our movement compared to other social movements, one thing that was really striking to me is how professional we are. I mean, we're so professionalized and we don't really have much of a grassroots side. We don't really speak to average people and the concerns that they have.

And I thought this is something that really needs to be addressed because certain sources, like Gallup polls were telling us that people that make 40,000 a year or less income are twice as likely to be vegetarian and be sympathetic to this cause. [00:05:00] Which really, these were kind of like shocking things 'cause we're taught the exact opposite. And it turns out that a lot of studies and my own real world experience has taught otherwise that people who have suffered injustices and hardship are much more likely to be empathic, I think.

[00:05:16] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I totally agree with that. I also think that, you know, not across the board, but I think anyone who has found themselves in a situation in their life where they've been like walking up the down staircase, it's easier to get that person to go vegan, I think, because it's like, well, in my case, you're already different so what's the difference?

Uh, and I think people do kind of like to fit in. It feels like a human instinct. I mean, I'm just giving you my take here. I would love to know what your take is in terms of your theory of change, and I'm sure there's a lot of variation, but as the general matter, what is your theory of change and what are the goals [00:06:00] of your actions?

Who are the targets for you and what is your theory for how your protests can lead to change?

[00:06:07] RobertGrillo: So I think the theory of change is based, well, I'll tell you a story that was a wake up call for me. I think that's the best way to explain how I arrived at this. And you know, we're still learning. It's like activism is a craft, right? So we're constantly evolving and hopefully refining what we know and practice.

You know, I haven't arrived. I'm just in the process like everyone else. But there was kind of a pivotal moment that really struck me a couple years ago when we went to a Farm Bill hearing, and there were three of us that were going to speak out at this Farm Bill hearing in Congress.

And we didn't know exactly what to expect because we had never done this before. When we got into the building, we found that there were hundreds of people in line. Most of these people were lobbyists or industry insiders. There were only [00:07:00] 60 chairs in the room, it turns out. And we made a calculation that there's no way we're gonna get in because the line's not moving.

And we looked in the room and all the seats have like reserved signs on 'em. This is supposed to be a public hearing, and there's no seats for the public. So we just decided we're gonna get in. And the door person, the gatekeeper, was like, distracted for a second, and five of us slipped in.

Two of them were gonna do video, and three of them were gonna speak out. What struck me there was that we were the only five activists of any kind, whether animal protection, environmental, food justice. That was really a sad moment for me, but also like a pivotal moment that here we are in one of the most consequential hearings on the future of our food system, that will decide the next five to seven years of where the funding is gonna go and none of us are in the room.

[00:08:00] Like, we're there, but where is everyone else? Why aren't they trying to bust the doors down here to make sure that the top decision makers and the people in the industry on the other side of this room are hearing what we want and what we're demanding? At that moment, I was like, how can we expect to fundamentally change and influence the system if we're missing an action and we're not in the room? We're filling a void, in a way. We need to be focused on being in the spaces of power with the most powerful decision makers in our food system. That's the theory of change, essentially.

[00:08:38] Mariann Sullivan: You seem like such a, a mild mannered person, Robert, but these are anything but mild mattered protests. I mean, they're very confrontational. They must take an enormous amount of courage. I mean, 'cause I don't see how you could do this without being frightened.

For people who haven't seen your videos, can you just describe a typical action? I [00:09:00] mean, you talked about getting into that particular venue, but what about the way that you've evolved and what a typical action would look like now? And also just tell us what it feels like to be there.

[00:09:12] RobertGrillo: Well, we try to infuse humor in the activism 'cause humor can be a really powerful activism strategy. Mockery, mocking those in power can really change the public perception of how, you know, credible these people are as far as power holders. And so this is atypical, but I'm gonna tell you this anyway because most of the work we're trying to do right now is to try to focus on cutting subsidies for animal ag and getting the message out that this industry doesn't even deserve to be subsidized. It's a private industry worth $260 billion, there's plenty of other things that actually need subsidies and funding, but this is not it. And a lot of people agree with that across the political spectrum. But what we did yesterday was kind of funny [00:10:00] because there's a group called Animal Ag Alliance.

You've probably heard of them. Um, in my opinion, they're a bunch of professional spin doctors, PR professionals that put a positive spin on animal agriculture and attack anybody who dares question or criticize the industry.

So we decided to go to their DC policy summit yesterday not me, but our folks in DC And it was really funny because the activists are like, Hey, you guys are always telling us we need to come to you for the information on farming. And that farmers need to tell their story and the public needs to go to them, not these extreme groups and stuff. So here we are, we're here to get information directly from the source.

Calling their bluff, right? And so we like to do actions where there is humor, we want to infuse humor in our movement 'cause we need it.

' We're often accused of being a humorless movement, but we're not. I mean, it's a serious subject, but we can find [00:11:00] ways to get people more engaged with the subject that way, I think.

[00:11:04] Jasmin Singer: I wanna break down some of your principles, and I'd love it if you could give us some concrete examples of how they play out in your work. So first activism is a craft. What do you mean by that?

[00:11:17] RobertGrillo: I think it's like anything else that we really apply ourselves to try to improve upon. I like to use the craft word because a lot of people think that we just arrive and all of a sudden we're just like experts on something. And certainly that's not true.

And don't judge yourself so harshly, just go out there and try it. And it might not work out exactly how you wanted it to. You might not have said things exactly the way you wanted to say it, but hey, that's what video editing is for. The video will look great. We'll make sure that the editing is good.

So just do it. Try it.

[00:11:53] Mariann Sullivan: When you do these confrontational activities, how much of it is for the people in the room [00:12:00] and how much of it is for the video and what is your social media strategy to use that video?

[00:12:06] RobertGrillo: Well, I would say it's a lot about the video. Have you heard of media jacking?

[00:12:11] Mariann Sullivan: No.

[00:12:12] RobertGrillo: It's what some activism groups, like Code Pink, call... instead of expecting the media to come to your events, you go to where they're covering something and you can get right in front of them.

That's what media jacking is. And so we look for opportunities where there's a good likelihood that the media will be there covering the event already. But like yesterday we knew that wasn't gonna be the case at the Animal Agriculture Alliance thing. We did think that there was good content here to be had, that we could get on social media.

The video's really key because we get a lot of people saying they were inspired. They wanna get more involved. When they see everyday people accessing powerful congress people or industry leaders, food industry [00:13:00] leaders, it's kind of shocking to them to see that and they're like, wow, maybe I can do that too.

They're not so immune to us as we think.

[00:13:09] Mariann Sullivan: It is startling how successful your activities are in getting close to people in power, and there is something. Inspirational in that. And even if the videos are one of the main focuses, I can't imagine it doesn't have impact on the people there.

I mean, you mentioned the Animal Ag Alliance and also obviously there's governmental focuses too. And your third principle of the principles you laid out that we were gonna go through was focusing on big picture, high level food systems change.

A lot of activists think that, well, we should start with smaller, more doable things like octopus farming or, you know, and, and no shade on that.

I'm not against that at all, but that's not your focus at all. Can you give us just a few concrete examples of the kind of things that you focus on?

[00:13:57] RobertGrillo: Yeah, sure. So by the way, the [00:14:00] low hanging fruit and small wins can be had with the big targets just as much as they could be with the small ones. So I, I like to mention that because they're not mutually exclusive. It's not like we have to choose low hanging fruit, like, a smaller like octopus farming type scenario versus taking on the chicken and egg industry or something.

There's wins, there's small milestones and wins within that larger target just as much. And so there's lots of things we can do in that space as well. But since bird flu has really been in the news cycle and is a huge concern and growing all the time. We've really seized upon that as something to leverage.

It's a weakness that this industry cannot get on top of. And we feel that the longer this plays out, the worse it gets for them. And we've had proof from them, you know, spokespeople, industry spokespeople themselves. [00:15:00] For example, just two weeks ago, I'm listening to one of these boring, two and a half hour Senate hearings with animal ag lobbyists.

And the Congress people, it's a love fest. Okay? They love each other. They can't say enough about how wonderful the other is. And it's all corrupt. So anyway, I'm listening and like half falling asleep and suddenly my jaw dropped because the leading spokesperson from the turkey industry says, paraphrasing, if we don't find a solution to this bird flu problem, there will be no future poultry and egg industry. And I stopped and I thought, wow. They are telling us just how vulnerable their industry is to one single problem of many problems that they have right now. And we're not leveraging that to our advantage. We should be yelling from the hills that this is [00:16:00] happening. We need to have a role in amplifying this problem so that the public realizes that they're not what they think they are. And we have a very important role to play in shifting the narrative. And we're starting to see senators and congresspeople actually use our language to describe subsidies, for example.

Senator Slotkin said farmers and ranchers don't want welfare checks, they want to compete fairly. Contrast that to what the other senators and USDA says the Farm Bill is. They call it a safety net. Doesn't that sound nice? A safety net. It's a multi-billion dollar funding package to bail out primarily animal agriculture.

And now we have senators actually calling it welfare, socialized agriculture. That's astounding. They're starting to use the perspective and the language that we pushed out [00:17:00] there and we don't even have that many people doing it.

[00:17:02] Mariann Sullivan: Even though what she's saying is that, oh, these farmers, they don't want that, which is kind of in defense of the industry. The point is, is that they're starting to see it as, or characterize it to people as welfare rather than, well even subsidies is a very benign word.

And what was the word that you just used that they call it? Oh, safety net. I mean, that's a totally benign word is if it's just all of our responsibility to save this industry. Just the fact that they're starting to call it welfare is a step in the right direction.

[00:17:31] RobertGrillo: Yes, it really is. And to hear industry people say that bird flu could just tank them. There is no solution, but vaccines that are a bandaid, they have no real solution. The government doesn't have one and the industry doesn't have it. And we don't know how this is gonna play out, but we play an important role in building anxiety and moral crisis to show the public that we need a big change.

[00:17:58] Mariann Sullivan: I mean, I know that the way you do that [00:18:00] is by showing up in small numbers and really making a ruckus. Do you think that, that actually is a step towards influencing policymakers?

[00:18:08] RobertGrillo: I do feel like they're hearing us and even when they don't appear to hear us or, you know, they kind of pretend not to. The fact that their language has changed is a sign that we are having the impact we want. When I say we, I mean collectively, I don't know who else is doing this kind of work.

I know there's groups on the inside influencing, we're on the outside game. Collectively we're having an impact on the narrative shift, which is a huge important component to, the change we wanna see.

[00:18:40] Mariann Sullivan: One of the questions I had wanted to ask you, and I think you kind of answered it, was the relationship that you have between other animal groups and as you said, some policy people who are working on the inside, and I was kind of wondering whether you got pushback because of your very aggressive, kind of confrontational, and I'm sure the industry loathes [00:19:00] you.

I wonder if other animal groups, is it a good cop, bad cop situation that they appreciate it, or is it that they think that you're taking the wrong kind of tack? Or does it vary from group to group? Do you feel like there's a either stated or unstated kind of movement wide strategy going on here that everybody's playing a separate role and you're doing a very outside kind of, um, work?

[00:19:23] RobertGrillo: Well, there's a lot of talk about movement ecology, I guess. Every movement has like the different sides and different facets to it. And I think ours is similar in that way. And it's funny to me in a way that when it comes to doing, and this is what I meant earlier- by default, we think that activism is about outreach and education. We just need to do enough of it. The more we do, the more people we reach. And yet, as soon as we start doing really difficult work, like targeting the governor of New York or the senators working [00:20:00] on the Farm Bill, as soon as we start doing that kind of work, all of a sudden there's a, a tremendous amount of scrutiny on how we should do this. Of course, there's a lot at stake, so part of it is justified, but rather than sit back and debate really what is the best way to approach this, we should actually be taking action. We should be testing it out and learning from other social movements to see how they're doing it too, and creating tension and conflict. Creating what Martin Luther King would call a moral crisis needs to happen to wake people up. It can be destructive, but it can also be very constructive if it's used right. And I think we range from doing disruptive action, but then also having very productive conversations with power holders. And sometimes there is no easy path to get to that [00:21:00] constructive conversation.

You have to get their attention and impress upon them that you're serious and you mean business. And then all of a sudden they kind of bring you in and decide to take you seriously and have a real conversation. Ultimately, that's what we want. We want a seat at the negotiation table.

We wanna be taken seriously that a plant-based future is a real viable goal as a society. You know, we have a lot of productive conversations with, with people. And so when people say, oh, you shouldn't be so confrontational. Well, sometimes that's necessary, but not always.

And, you know, look at more of our videos and you'll see that we're actually having interesting and productive conversations with people.

[00:21:44] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, absolutely. Many of your video, I mean, even if they're not productive, a lot of your conversations with people that I've been looking at, are then kind of avoiding your questions or obfuscating the issue, and it's interesting to see that too. That people really start out thinking that they're on [00:22:00] the side of the angels because everybody loves agriculture. And then they suddenly realize in the middle of the conversation that you're asking them real questions about what happens. And they sort of just like, uh, fade from view. I wanna get on into the useful conversations, but I just wanna stick on the confrontational part a little bit.

I just wonder like, I mean, because it's pretty confrontational. I mean, you have people going into these like, crowded meetings full of industry people and government people and standing up with signs and yelling until they're thrown out. And, that's hard to do. I'm just wondering, like, who is it who does this? I assume that not all of them are fearless. How do people overcome kind of natural human hesitation to do this kind of work?

[00:22:39] RobertGrillo: Well, yeah, I think that's a great question. I think that it's different for everybody and we've worked with a lot of first timers, which, I mean, this is the first time they've attempted this. And we don't push people into it. We want people to challenge themselves and explore what their next level [00:23:00] could be in terms of activism, but we also want to make sure they feel prepared and confident going into it. And we do a lot of role playing and training because we believe, like, not that we're anywhere like the Civil Rights Movement or anything that great, but one of the things they did so well was training their activists and preparing them for going out into the world and being in front of powerful people and such.

So we put a lot of emphasis on that and we work with people to prepare them. And like I said, a lot of 'em are first timers and it's so rewarding to come out of this situation, to overcome those fears and anxieties about being intimidated in front of powerful people and actually being able to say what needs to be said.

It's an incredibly rewarding experience and I think a lot of people come [00:24:00] out of it, the first timers and say, okay, what's the next one? I'm psyched now. This is fun. This is really impactful.

[00:24:07] Mariann Sullivan: Do people ever get arrested?

[00:24:09] RobertGrillo: We've had only a couple of arrests. It's so much the exception, than the norm.

So out of 60 actions there were only two arrests. One of them was planned. We did civil disobedience at a senate hearing. We knew there was a 50 50 chance of getting arrested for disorderly conduct.

[00:24:26] Mariann Sullivan: Can, you go into a little bit more detail on that? What was the senate hearing and what did you do?

[00:24:31] RobertGrillo: During an official hearing, once the gavel goes down, if you interrupt the hearing, then you could be asked to leave. Or if the capitol police really wanna be jerks, they can put handcuffs on you and make a big show of it and search you. They search you all over, they take you to the sergeant of arms station and detain you for a couple of hours while they're writing up their reports and then they let you off on a $35 fine.

So all the anti-war protesters that got arrested, most of [00:25:00] them went through this whole process too. So it's a minor inconvenience, to be honest, to be arrested for disorderly conduct. But we knew there was a 50 50 chance of that. Other times the capitol police will say, just leave. You gotta leave, or they'll drag you out.

But if you talk before the gavel goes down. That's the best time because all the Congress people are coming into the hearing room and shaking hands...

[00:25:25] Mariann Sullivan: What was the hearing on?

[00:25:26] RobertGrillo: The hearing was on the Farm Bill. The

[00:25:28] Mariann Sullivan: Okay.

[00:25:29] RobertGrillo: House Farm Bill. What we learned is that if you do it at the beginning where everybody's like, there's a meet and greet period, like right before the hearing starts and the gavel goes down, everybody's in the room and then you can get people's attention there.

[00:25:41] Mariann Sullivan: So you're in the gallery.

[00:25:43] RobertGrillo: In the hearing room.

[00:25:44] Mariann Sullivan: Oh, right. It's a hearing. It's a hearing. Alright, so it's a relatively small room.

[00:25:49] RobertGrillo: This one was but some of 'em are larger, depending on the hearing. This one was only like 60 chairs for the public.

[00:25:57] Mariann Sullivan: And, what did you do?

[00:25:58] RobertGrillo: Well, we spoke [00:26:00] out of turn. We had three of us and we told them that, you know, we can't continue to support an industry that's worth $260 billion, that it doesn't deserve our subsidies. We don't wanna spend another penny on them. We don't wanna support this industry.

There's a lot more that we'd like to see happen, but at the very least, we don't wanna subsidize it. And we need a transition, an urgent transition to a plant-based food system. It's gotta start happening now. And so that was kind of the message then.

[00:26:29] Jasmin Singer: So one thing that I found interesting when we were reading about you before the interview is that you mentioned that one of your core principles is to be welcoming to allies, even if goals don't perfectly align. Now, I was thinking about it and I realized that I think it's more often other groups that don't wanna align with animal activists than the other way around.

Do you find that as well, and if so, what do you suggest we do about it?[00:27:00]

[00:27:00] RobertGrillo: Well, I think our framing is slightly different, which is more inclusive because we're not necessarily talking about veganism or animal activism. We're talking about food system change and the need to transition. We always emphasize the word transition 'cause you know, people immediately think, oh my God, we're gonna convert to a animal free, plant-based food system tomorrow?

No, of course not. So we always emphasize the word transition, and most people that we present this to have a very positive response to it. They're still consuming animal products, but they see the logic in transitioning because of all the right reasons, like avoiding pandemics, you know, being more sustainable and the animal ethics issues.

So without even mentioning like that, we're like compartmentalized as animal rights activists, we're for food system change that benefits animals, human health [00:28:00] and the planet. It's all encompassing.

[00:28:03] Mariann Sullivan: So another one of the principles that you talk about is, and you kind of alluded to this before, but talking about the need to define both long and short-term goals. And one of the reasons is to have, I mean, obviously our long-term goals are all the same, but they're really long, or they're... they're really big.

And, it is really good to have short-term goals, which I think is one of the reasons why people focus on, you know, more discreet types of animal agriculture. But you don't do that. Can you tell us, I mean, why you think it's so important, but actually define some of the goals that you can talk about in a specific campaign, that keep activists going and perhaps even accomplish something for animals?

[00:28:44] RobertGrillo: Yeah. So, you know, if we see even like a minor reduction in subsidies, or if there's opposition starting that we've heard from Congress people that they wanna shift [00:29:00] subsidies and want to give more subsidies to plant crops. They call 'em specialty crops, actually. It's just like vegetables and fruit and nuts and seeds and legumes.

There's already a lot of talk of that. And when we see signs of that changing and that the top decision makers are talking about this even more, we see that as we're on the right track, we're having the right impact.

When we look at the most important metrics for evaluating whether you're on the right track, and this is from Mark and Paul Angler the authors who wrote the book This is An Uprising and are just, you know, leading figures in social change. The most important metrics are, number one, is your popular support growing or shrinking? Are you finding that people are responsive to the message or not liking it? And the second thing is, are you increasing your internal [00:30:00] capacity? Are there more people signing up? Are there more people interested? Are you getting more media coverage? Are you building momentum internally?

So when you're a small organization, you might not have the ability to do professional polling and stuff like that to really gauge exactly how well you're doing. But I go more intuition. Are we on the right track? Meaning are we seeing signs of change from the powerful and the policies they're talking about?

And are we seeing more people getting involved? I think we're seeing those things for sure.

[00:30:36] Mariann Sullivan: That's great to hear.

[00:30:37] Jasmin Singer: We are in a time of enormous change. I think we can all agree on that and we don't know how things are going to shift, even though I took Mariann to a psychic, she did not clear that up for us. We don't know how things will shift for good or for ill.

[00:30:53] Mariann Sullivan: But my life is gonna be great.

[00:30:54] Jasmin Singer: it's gonna be fabulous. But autocracy and climate change, ai, there's a lot, [00:31:00] there's a lot going on.

I mean, I could go on and on time. The times feel really scary to a lot of us, but they can also present opportunities. This is something Mariann and I talk about a lot with each other. Are you afraid that animals will once again be left out of the equation of change? And how do we make sure that doesn't happen?

[00:31:21] RobertGrillo: Yeah, I think that's certainly, you know, a big concern. I don't know. I mean, I think that the way that we try to ensure that it doesn't happen is that we present our problem and solution message as, you know, the industry and the way it uses and abuses animals and all of the other problems and threats that it poses, are part of a bigger problem.

They're definitely a big part of it. And threats to human health and the planet are another big part of it. And [00:32:00] the solution is the transition that we need. So we never leave them out of the equation, we always make sure that they are factored prominently in our language. I hope that answers the question,

[00:32:14] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I think so. And it, but it's funny because ...are you gonna be at the AVA conference, by the way?

[00:32:20] RobertGrillo: Not planning on it.

[00:32:22] Jasmin Singer: Okay, so I will be at the AVA Summit, and I'm not no fly, but I'm low fly. I haven't flown in six years. I'm flying there, and I'm staying with my best friend in LA for like two days before the summit. And I had to order something to go to her house. And like, long story short, I could not find a plastic free version of it.

And I also don't shop on Amazon. I could not find it not on Amazon. So I, I text her and I say, I cannot believe I am flying in a plane to go to your house to [00:33:00] use this plastic material that I got on Amazon. I was, you know, like I'm holding myself accountable, sort of, but like, I also feel like a horrible human being.

And she goes, well, I think there are bigger things going on. And, you know, she was being light and funny. And I was like, are there though? Like, I mean, obviously there are in a way, right? Like, it's like the world is a shit show right now. I mean, I won't even get started 'cause I won't stop. But I have been thinking about this moment ever since it happened.

Like it sort of is everything. It sort of does all come back to personal action, I think. I don't know what's your take on that? You don't have to absolve me by the way. I'm being very hard on myself.

[00:33:42] RobertGrillo: I think that there's, yeah, there's a place for personal transformation in every movement. And, there's something called, like the Anglers talk about creating alternative communities. And I guess that's what mutual aid is, when mutual Aid comes about to provide services [00:34:00] that that community needs as part of the movement, as part of the momentum that the movement needs.

And then the personal transformation part being that there's those who see that as their strength and that as their way of being able to contribute. And then there's those who say that they need to focus on system change, and that requires a whole different set of strategies. So it looks to me like every movement has these components, but I think ours is sorely lacking on the system change side.

And that's why we haven't made that much progress. But we have plenty of people that seem to be willing to do personal change and personal transformation work, but we don't really have much emphasis on... like I said, being in that congressional hearing and having no other activists around was really a wake up call to me. And it made me realize that we don't have a presence in some of the most important spaces, where big [00:35:00] decisions are being made.

[00:35:01] Jasmin Singer: I interviewed David Wallace Wells, not for Our Hen House, for my work at WXXI, the NPR station here. And I interviewed him about his new book at the time, the Uninhabitable Earth.

[00:35:13] RobertGrillo: Uh,

[00:35:14] Jasmin Singer: You know, that was his big thing, that we need to be reaching the highest stakeholders, the legislators, policy change.

I tend to think he was saying that they are mutually exclusive. He might not like me categorizing it that way, but I tend to think he thought -change if you want, that's all fine and good, but what we really need is this. And I mean, I appreciate about you that you're saying like they can actually coexist.

Right?

[00:35:42] RobertGrillo: I would, yes, in fact they do. I think that if we look at other social movements, we find the same. I mean, we're not unique in how we have these different models of change, theories of change, some people working on personal transformation, doing outreach, doing cubes of truth, [00:36:00] doing whatever it is, talking to people on the street. And then others, you know, trying to get corporations and public officials to change.

We've decided that our strength is confronting powerful people and it also helps highlight the need to use our rights to preserve our democracy. So it plays this kind of dual role that, yes, it's all about the cause and we're doing this for the animals and the planet, but we also need to preserve our rights as activists because they're also under attack and as well as our democracy.

[00:36:36] Mariann Sullivan: I really love that point of view. I mean, you mentioned that one situation. Are you generally the only animal advocates in the room? Do you do things where there might be representatives from more, I mean, I don't know whether I should use the word mainstream, but like Humane World for Animals, or one of the big organizations. Do you sometimes do things that they are present at as well and you're just playing a different role?

They're not. There's nobody there. You're the only ones. It's crazy.

[00:36:59] RobertGrillo: And, [00:37:00] and I think their theory of change and their, their practice is playing this kind of inside game approach where you play by the rules, you use influence, you use lobbying, you use the tools of the inside, you know, the reformist type thinking, to try to influence those officials that way.

And hey, that's certainly something, I'm not dissing that. If we look at, um, Bill Moyer's seven stages of a social movement, he says that the grassroots side of the movement is needed in the initial stages to create the momentum, to be the catalyst for the spark for the change that's needed.

And then the reformists, the inside gain people are needed when we have that public support and we need to codify this change into law and legislation. We need their skills to do that part of it. Big time at that point. So not that [00:38:00] there's a linear path to change, but his seven stages kind of emphasizes this.

[00:38:05] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. I mean, and those groups do perform that function, like on companion animal issues, issues where there really is this strong public swell of support, but on the issues that you're working on, we're really still at the level of having to just get anybody's attention to this issue.

And I guess that's what you're trying to do. All of this stuff I've seen has targeted federal lawmakers, and you've talked about, you know, going to the top. Given that the federal government is completely paralyzed and pathetic at the moment, have you thought of different approaches?

Are there state level approaches that people are making with this kind of work?

[00:38:38] RobertGrillo: I am sure there are, however, the funding is from the federal government when it comes to the food system, and that's something you realize right away. It's why when you go to Congress, you see, oh my gosh, there's every interest group imaginable. It's the most colorful, vibrant expression of demo... I mean, I guess some of it's [00:39:00] democratic, some of it's really corrupt. But you see all these different groups like, with all these different interests and some of 'em are noble causes, right? But everybody's there because they know that's like where the big decisions and funding decisions are made.

But the other set of targets we have are the leadership of corporations that are really influential too.

We focused on the CEO of Marriott, which is the largest hotel chain in the world. On Fairlife, you may have seen some of our, our work on Fairlife, and we actually confronted the CEO of Fairlife at an international dairy forum in Texas.

It was purely chance that our activists were in the right place at the right time, and he comes strolling out of the bathroom and, uh, Leah was just right there at the right time and she did it. It was just perfect. It was serendipity.

[00:39:53] Mariann Sullivan: Do you ever get press coverage with these videos? 'cause they're so good and they're so vibrant and [00:40:00] they'd be great for like TV or video or whatever, but does anybody pick them up?

[00:40:06] RobertGrillo: Not a lot. I mean, some of the indie media, and we could do a lot better, in terms of being assertive about media coverage. We do need to develop that. We need someone

[00:40:17] Mariann Sullivan: You're doing lot. That wasn't meant as a criticism. I was just, 'cause you're already doing it an unbelievable amount, but I was just curious because they do make for great video. These like lovely young people. These charming young people with their signs and their earnestness against, like these idiots who don't know what they're talking about.

It makes for great tv.

[00:40:38] RobertGrillo: Yeah. I think so too. I'm glad you think so. And, I don't take it as criticism at all. I think it's just something that you know, we need to continually try to build media interest and network with the media as much as we can.

[00:40:50] Jasmin Singer: There's a Fair life that just opened like really close to where we live in here in Western New York.

[00:40:57] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. A Fairlife processing facility. [00:41:00] So now all of the dairy farms in Western New York are expected to really ramp up production to satisfy the needs of this Fairlife production facility. It's horrifying.

[00:41:10] RobertGrillo: Is that the one near Rochester?

[00:41:12] Mariann Sullivan: Yes. We're... jasmin and I both live in Rochester. I.

[00:41:16] RobertGrillo: Okay. Because Governor Hochul, we learned that she was at the ribbon cutting and she, she said that she was the daughter of an Irish dairy farmer and how proud she is to have this in her state.

[00:41:26] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:41:27] RobertGrillo: We really wanted to be there to disrupt that ribbon cutting event, but we learned about it too late.

[00:41:33] Jasmin Singer: So listen, we've kept you for a really long time, but just a couple more questions for you before we go to our q and a with our flock. One thing that I struggle with when I hear things about the industry or from public officials is wondering what they actually believe.

You know, like what they believe in their hearts. Do they believe their lies? I mean, do they believe that what they're doing is in fact good? Is it all about [00:42:00] personal gain? Do they have different relationships with truth than we do? Do you think about this? Do you have a theory?

[00:42:07] RobertGrillo: For sure. I definitely think about that all the time. And you know that Animal Ag Alliance experience that I just told you about? That indicated to me that here you have the pros, the best people doing PR for the animal ag industry, their conference, right? All executives, you know, well dressed, fancy hotel, they are so protective and they have so much to hide.

And the fact that they chased these activists down and were so alarmed that they would even come and try to talk to them, that tells me that they are aware they are doing something wrong and they're trying to put a positive spin on [00:43:00] it.

[00:43:00] Mariann Sullivan: I do a segment on the podcast every week, and it's called Rising Anxieties. And some people think that what I'm talking about is how much our anxieties are rising because of what's happening. But really what I'm trying to do is highlight things that are written by the industry. And I look at the Animal Ag Alliance website, blog, meeting place.org every week to look at their blogs.

And my point is, is that they are the only p We know what's happening and they know what's happening, and they are incredibly anxious that it will come out. That anything that we do, they have to completely disparage, that they have to completely characterize us as liars. Any kind of information coming out, they're terrified of it because they know that if people woke up to what's happening to animals, it would freak them out.

And it's just people's willingness not to see that is their ally. It's 'cause they have no argument and they're [00:44:00] terrified.

[00:44:00] RobertGrillo: I see that a lot too. And, I think you can read their body language and like when we confronted lobbyists, animal ag lobbyists in Congress at a couple of hearings, they were extremely uncomfortable. I don't know if you saw any of the footage from that, but they basically scattered, they didn't wanna deal with

[00:44:18] Mariann Sullivan: I'm not at all surprised. Yeah.

[00:44:20] RobertGrillo: Um, 'cause they're asking for our tax dollars to bail out their industry. They're already highly profitable. How you have the audacity to come into this body that are our elected officials, those that are supposed to be representing us and tie up their time to try to get funding for your industry.

And yeah, they just scatter.

[00:44:44] Jasmin Singer: One more question for you, Robert. This is more of a psychology question, but we were kind of talking about it before when we were talking about walking up the down staircase.

It's more, more psychology. I like to find out people's opinion, their position on it. How do you account for the fact [00:45:00] that many people who would never harm an animal actively ignore what's happening in animal agriculture and continue to participate, whether as consumers or regulators or whatever? And I just wanna add to that, that I was covering a city hall protest, related to companion animals, related to the city shelter, and it was very crowded. I mean, there were very passionate people there. I'm sure this doesn't surprise you at all, but when I hear you talking about how few people were showing up for farmed animal related issues, and then I think about like, you know, pushing my way through the crowd with my little microphone for the companion animal issues.

It is heartbreaking. So what do you think? Why? Figure it out for us! Let us know. What's the reason?

[00:45:51] RobertGrillo: I wish I could say, I think you kind of alluded I think earlier to the fact that, you know, we're social animals and that we follow the [00:46:00] herd and we rarely stand out for what's right. And when someone does, it makes a big splash. And sometimes people are inspired by that. And that's what we hope that activism does for society, is that the ones that are willing to kind of stand up and speak out against something that is so much easier just to go with the flow and to be socially accepted.

It's so much easier to take that route that I think people really respect it when someone decides to take that different route and risk everything, their reputation, their friends, their family. To do that takes a lot of courage and people respect that. So, I don't know. I wish I had the answer.

[00:46:47] Mariann Sullivan: We ask that question to everyone, and so far no one knows why.

[00:46:52] Jasmin Singer: Well, I don't know. I think that he did offer an answer.

[00:46:55] Mariann Sullivan: No, I, I, no, I absolutely. And that is a really good answer, and I think that's the [00:47:00] right answer. And it, you know, it has to do with being human or whatever, but it's somehow none of the, maybe I shouldn't say, no one has the answer. No one has an answer that is sufficiently satisfying. That really explains.

[00:47:12] Jasmin Singer: There is no answer that is sufficiently satisfying because the answer that is sufficiently satisfying is someone saying, oh my God, you're totally right. I'm gonna go vegan. You know, like,

[00:47:21] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

[00:47:22] RobertGrillo: Yeah. To me it's almost like asking like, what is the meaning of life? Why are we here? There's 1,000,001 answers and ways to answer that, and then there's no satisfying explanation, you know?

[00:47:36] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, totally. Well, Robert, I know you're gonna hang on for our flock bonus content, and I just want you to know that I really appreciate all that you're doing. Can you tell our listeners where they can find you online and support your efforts?

[00:47:52] RobertGrillo: Yes. Um, don't go to our website. It's a mess. That's my first piece of advice. A lot of people find our website by doing searches for [00:48:00] things and go directly to a page, which is fine. But if you go to our homepage, it's like you won't find anything. It needs a completely re redoing. So we recommend that people go to our social channels. Free From Harm on Instagram or Facebook, or YouTube.

And sign up on our mailing list. There you have to go to our website for freefromharm.org to sign up.

[00:48:19] Jasmin Singer: All right. We'll just go to the website real quick, like just super quickly, type in your email, and then skedaddle. Robert, thank you so much. Yeah get of there!

[00:48:28] RobertGrillo: Thank you. Thank you so much!

[00:48:31] Jasmin Singer: For those of you who are tuning in right now, thanks for being with us here on YouTube. And make sure that if you're not, if you're listening to this, just know we're on YouTube now.

So subscribe on YouTube or on your favorite pod catcher. And thank you so much to our listeners. To become a Flock member and to be here live as our flock members are today, because this was part of our Flock Friday. Please help support us and that way you can have access to our bonus content. Don't you wanna know what Robert's about to say?

'Cause it's gonna be pretty revelatory, I think. Go to ourhenhouse.org/support and thanks so much for joining us and changing the world for animals.