The Hen Report: “Steamed Tofu and Broccoli” | Religion, Politics & Vegan Travel

[00:00:08] Mariann Sullivan: Which we privately call Henry.

[00:00:10] Jasmin Singer: This is our Henry Port. Henry Port. It is, it's hilarious. It's, if I'm a little loopy, it's because

[00:00:17] Mariann Sullivan: You are a little little loopy.

[00:00:19] Jasmin Singer: I'm three hours behind you now. Finally.

[00:00:22] Mariann Sullivan: Like, you just went there like two days ago. Do you complain to the people in Los Angeles that you have jet lag and to the people in New York that it's because of the time difference. So, and that is your excuse for everybody.

[00:00:33] Jasmin Singer: Uhhuh. I do. What's wrong with that? No. What's your excuse?

[00:00:39] Mariann Sullivan: And anyway, even if you were on LA time, which you can't have totally transitioned, it'd be like eight o'clock in the morning. It's fine.

[00:00:46] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, no, I know. It's totally, it's fine. It's,

[00:00:49] Mariann Sullivan: Are, there's no doubt about it. You're, you're a little out of it. The traveling is hard.

[00:00:53] Jasmin Singer: I am staying with my best friend, who lives out here, and then tonight I'm moving to the hotel. So, she's still [00:01:00] sleeping, which means I have only been talking to myself in my head today so far.

[00:01:06] Mariann Sullivan: So how is LA?

[00:01:07] Jasmin Singer: La you know, I lived here for a few years.

And I moved during the beginning of the pandemic, and it's so funny, I lived in New York City for, you know, nearly 20 years, and anytime I go back to New York City or LA I'm immediately like, nothing changed. Like, I'm immediately like, oh yeah, I'm here now. I'm, I'm, I'm like,

[00:01:28] Mariann Sullivan: But in New York, like everything changes all the time. Like the store is a different store and it's kind of so when. when you pass something and it's still the same thing.

[00:01:37] Jasmin Singer: When I'm watching like a show that takes place in New York, I'm like, um, I know that, I know what subway station they're at. Even if you don't see it in the background. And,

[00:01:47] Mariann Sullivan: Especially in New York you're a pedestrian a lot, so you really do kind of absorb the street scene.

[00:01:52] Jasmin Singer: yeah, yeah,

[00:01:53] Mariann Sullivan: like within one second of, of something coming on that's filmed in New York, I know it was filmed in, in New York.[00:02:00]

[00:02:00] Jasmin Singer: yeah, me too.

[00:02:00] Mariann Sullivan: How,

[00:02:01] Jasmin Singer: It's just. It's just like in your bones. I mean,

[00:02:05] Mariann Sullivan: like, cities definitely have just different looks, and I don't know why.

[00:02:09] Jasmin Singer: So in my short time in LA I lived in three different places. Hollywood, Koreatown, and then West Hollywood. And West Hollywood being its own city, not a neighborhood. Uh, for people who don't know.

[00:02:21] Mariann Sullivan: like, now we're getting into that whole LA thing, which nobody understands.

[00:02:25] Jasmin Singer: So the whole time I lived here, I passed the Hollywood Forever Cemetery, like a billion times.

It's like an iconic cemetery that has a lot of, you know, old glam Hollywood stars buried there. And they also do a lot of events, like free movies, there's a lawn area and they play it outside. Yeah. And I've never been there, but, so I went because I wanted to see Judy Garland's grave, or, you know, uh, what do you call it, mausoleum. And it was really powerful. And there were peacocks in the cemetery. Like I kept hearing these birds, [00:03:00] like making bird noises. And I'm like, what kind of bird is that? And then I see the,

[00:03:04] Mariann Sullivan: a very distinctive noise,

[00:03:05] Jasmin Singer: yeah. And so I, they were screaming and like I, so there were these giant peacocks. They're gorgeous. I thought that was so cool.

[00:03:16] Mariann Sullivan: I think, I think it's well established that peacocks are

[00:03:20] Jasmin Singer: Indeed. Yeah, it is. So, as soon as I landed here, Vicki was texting me 'cause we had an Our Hen House thing that we were dealing with, and she was like, if it was me, I would go right to Shojin, which is a vegan sushi place that used to have two locations and now has one. And I was thinking, is the foodie town of LA lost on me since I just like what I like? 'Cause you know where I ate that evening.

I ate at Cafe Gratitude, which is not exciting for a lot of people and it's not particularly exciting for me, except I love the food there. It's just like, you know, a wholesome grounding, like, you know,

[00:03:56] Mariann Sullivan: that you're not a foodie, it's just that your preferences are different, but you

[00:03:59] Jasmin Singer: [00:04:00] do you know what, you know what it reminded me of when you and I drove across the country the first time we were eating very, you know, wholesome at the time.

[00:04:10] Mariann Sullivan: Obstemiously.

[00:04:12] Jasmin Singer: Steamed tofu and broccoli and we brought our own tahini and our own nutritional yeast. 'cause we're those vegans. And I remember telling people that and they thought we were completely bananas.

[00:04:22] Mariann Sullivan: We

[00:04:23] Jasmin Singer: That and, and you know what though? Like I could see that perspective. However, we really enjoyed it.

And so it's like,

[00:04:30] Mariann Sullivan: Remember that restaurant we went to?

[00:04:32] Jasmin Singer: yes.

[00:04:32] Mariann Sullivan: I think the name of the town was Shamrock. I don't actually know the state.

[00:04:36] Jasmin Singer: In the Midwest, in the middle.

[00:04:38] Mariann Sullivan: no, it was in, it was in the, I mean,

[00:04:40] Jasmin Singer: Oh, the West.

[00:04:41] Mariann Sullivan: or something, or

[00:04:43] Jasmin Singer: Oh.

[00:04:44] Mariann Sullivan: or

[00:04:45] Jasmin Singer: Or it was Alabama, Alaska. Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado. Kinetic.

[00:04:49] Mariann Sullivan: Alaska.

I

[00:04:50] Jasmin Singer: Okay. Got it.

[00:04:52] Mariann Sullivan: and there was a one Chinese restaurant in town and we went in

[00:04:56] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:57] Mariann Sullivan: tofu. They were so [00:05:00] excited.

[00:05:00] Jasmin Singer: Yeah,

[00:05:01] Mariann Sullivan: had ever sold... they said specifically, all anybody wants here is beef.

[00:05:05] Jasmin Singer: And it was also, the tofu line was at the bottom of the menu in like six point font, like you can re

[00:05:11] Mariann Sullivan: tofu for their own

[00:05:13] Jasmin Singer: for their self for themselves.

[00:05:15] Mariann Sullivan: ordered it.

[00:05:15] Jasmin Singer: Right, right. So I did eat there and then the, oh, I didn't even tell you this. This was so exciting. One thing I don't feel we have enough of in Rochester or any really is vegan soft serve.

And there's a place, there are fully vegan ice cream places in Rochester, but I went to one that I used to go to all the time called mag pies and they have vegan soft serve. And I went yesterday and it was so. Good. Yeah. Although I did hear, I did hear that Voula's, which is a vegetarian place in Rochester is opening like a second location that's just gonna be ice cream and soft serve, and they're planning on having vegan soft serve.

So maybe we'll have vegan soft serve in the near future.

[00:05:57] Mariann Sullivan: But they're

[00:05:57] Jasmin Singer: Oh, what?

[00:05:58] Mariann Sullivan: restaurant too. It's like a [00:06:00] Greek vegan well, vegetarian, but they do everything vegan.

[00:06:03] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Oh, yeah, by the way, I wanted to tell you, Moore and I get the, I might have mentioned this before, we get this cookie mix from Tops Grocery store, which is just like, you know, your average run of the mill grocery store, nothing fancy, and they sell Dolly Parton cookie mix.

And so we've gotten it before because it's vegan, like the ingredients on it are vegan. They say add butter and whatever. And we obviously add vegan, but we've only had chocolate chip cookies from it. And I like making cookies from a mix. But I mentioned to you, I was like, oh, Mariann couldn't have this 'cause you don't eat chocolate.

And so Moore was excited to tell me yesterday that she went to Tops and she got Dolly Parton brand sugar cookie mix so that we could give it to you.

[00:06:45] Mariann Sullivan: was very sweet.

Very sweet, get it?

[00:06:48] Jasmin Singer: Probably, yeah, it was funny. So I'm here for Ava, which is the Animal and Vegan Advocacy Conference, and it hasn't started yet, but, tonight I start staying at the hotel and [00:07:00] programming starts tomorrow.

And, you know, I have to say, like I've gotten some messages from folks, including listeners, which was very sweet. I'm really excited about seeing our listeners and Vicki made a list for me based on the speaker's list of people who have been on Our Hen House and it's like 99% of the speakers.

And I'm a little overwhelmed. I'm a little, I'm feeling kind of...

[00:07:23] Mariann Sullivan: It'll be fine. You always get like that.

[00:07:25] Jasmin Singer: But don't get mad at me. I'm feeling a little introverted

[00:07:27] Mariann Sullivan: Oh yeah, I get mad at you all the time... ​

[00:07:29] Jasmin Singer: I know that you're an actual introvert and I just play one on TV or on YouTube, but I have an introverted side and I get really over.

[00:07:39] Mariann Sullivan: that I am a full-time introvert and you, like most people go in and out of kind of different moods.

[00:07:46] Jasmin Singer: well, I'm in the mood, so it's not like I'm not looking forward to it, but I get kind of overwhelmed by it, so I don't know. Do you wish you were here?

[00:07:54] Mariann Sullivan: You know, yes and no. There are things that I would love to be there for, but the thought of like flying [00:08:00] across the country like that is not my bag. and, and

[00:08:03] Jasmin Singer: my God,

[00:08:04] Mariann Sullivan: I'm sure like if I was there, I would be totally stressed out because that's my way. you know, I kind of was looking at the schedule and stuff and I was like, oh, I wanna see that.

Oh, I wanna see that.

[00:08:13] Jasmin Singer: I'll try and go to the things you sent me that you wanna see so I can report back. But I have to tell you, you reminded me of this. I haven't flown in years. When I flew, I got a meal. Obviously, I chose the vegan meal and it was the most revolting vial, disgusting thing. I, the woman next to me was like, is that good?

And I was like, and I just couldn't lie. And I was like, no, it was a bad.

[00:08:36] Mariann Sullivan: all of veganism just because the, I usually find that the vegan meal is, not bad.

[00:08:41] Jasmin Singer: No. Agreed.

[00:08:42] Mariann Sullivan: I guess I haven't flown in a long time, so I don't know. But I'm surprised you got a meal at all.

[00:08:47] Jasmin Singer: I was too. I was too, but I did. So I will report back next week on Ava. Next time we record I will be back and I also have my mic.

[00:08:57] Mariann Sullivan: being in la. I must admit LA [00:09:00] is the weirdest city.

[00:09:01] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:09:02] Mariann Sullivan: it doesn't have anything that I think I like. It's very car oriented. I don't really like being in cars. I get a little car sick. There's loads of traffic. I hate being in traffic. It's complete sprawl, which I highly disapprove of and don't like. And yet I love LA. What is that?

[00:09:20] Jasmin Singer: I have to tell you, that LA to me is like multiple cities. And in the years that I lived here, I didn't even see all of them. So where I'm staying right now is right by Larchmont. And Larchmont is, is like the last like, small town feel city in LA I mean, it's, it's a neighborhood. Oh.

[00:09:39] Mariann Sullivan: at

[00:09:40] Jasmin Singer: the first night I was here, we strolled, you know, up Larchmont and Erica's like, oh, there's, this place is full.

There was a new fully vegan donut place. Erin McKenna's Bakery is there. Fully vegan. There's, you know, places like Salt and Straw, which is an ice cream place that has vegan stuff. Gratitude is there. There's all these cute little [00:10:00] shops.

[00:10:00] Mariann Sullivan: Alright, now I'm jealous.

[00:10:01] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, no, and like the other thing is, I mean, I said you could just live here and never go to another neighborhood and you would be fine.

All of those things you said are is true, but it really is. I love it. And you know, it's funny 'cause they say that like, you're either New York or you're LA and I'm both.

[00:10:18] Mariann Sullivan: That's ridiculous. I love both of them.

And I, I just, I know why I love New York, but I have no idea why I love LA. It doesn't seem to have any of the things I love, but I, I always find it exciting to be there there's loads of things to discover

[00:10:32] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:33] Mariann Sullivan: It's just, I don't know.

It's kind of quintessentially American, isn't it?

[00:10:37] Jasmin Singer: I think LA has a lot of what you love, to be honest. It has like, it has. A lot of activism. In fact, since I've been here, the Today Show, which Moore was watching, was reporting on the protests at the LA Zoo, which is,

[00:10:51] Mariann Sullivan: Prote. Oh, cool.

[00:10:53] Jasmin Singer: it made that a Today show. Isn't that great?

[00:10:56] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

[00:10:57] Jasmin Singer: it's amazing.

Super cool [00:11:00] coverage there. But anyway, I will, I will let you know. I'll report back so.

[00:11:05] Mariann Sullivan: We'll hear more about LA next week

[00:11:07] Jasmin Singer: Oh, I was going to say, do you have anything to say? But I just remembered we both went away together last weekend. We went to see the.

[00:11:16] Mariann Sullivan: Yes, it was part of my Christmas gift. We went to the Harriet Tubman house, which is just down the road in Auburn, New York, which is so much bigger and nicer than I remembered it. It's really a nice town and it's kind of like, well, I mean big for the Finger Lakes. Yeah, it was great.

It was really great.

I mean Harriet Tubman is such an u nbelievable hero. Like beyond

like, you know, I guess most of what I know about her is from the movie, which I think is, you know, mostly correct. And, I learned more about her from this. There was a very elaborate tour with a lot of information. To tell you the truth, the tour was great, and the guy who did it was great. And it was really, there's not a lot left of the buildings

[00:11:56] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:11:57] Mariann Sullivan: know, there were a number of buildings on the farmstead where she used to [00:12:00] live and there's not a lot left, but still you got that atmosphere and they have a lovely little museum set up.

[00:12:05] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:06] Mariann Sullivan: it, it's really, I even felt like maybe it's from watching the movie or just reading about her, I even felt like it wasn't even enough. Like, her courage was just insane.

[00:12:18] Jasmin Singer: know it.

[00:12:20] Mariann Sullivan: to like, she kept going back and getting more people like she was, it's not like she got in her Volkswagen and just put, put on the GPS and drove down there. Even that would be very brave considering that she could have, have been arrested at any moment.

[00:12:34] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:35] Mariann Sullivan: she was like driving horses in back roads. Like how did she even find what she was, I don't even understand it, how courageous she was. And she was this tiny little woman

[00:12:45] Jasmin Singer: I know like four 11, I think. Uh, I feel like I read that. Yeah.

[00:12:50] Mariann Sullivan: cra like, she's such a hero.

[00:12:53] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. And, you know, we obviously we live near the Susan B. Anthony house and we've been there and Frederick [00:13:00] Douglas and so we've been able to sort of entrench ourselves in their history a little bit through going on tours there.

[00:13:06] Mariann Sullivan: has

[00:13:06] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:13:07] Mariann Sullivan: of history from that era, which is really, it's really something I love about it.

[00:13:12] Jasmin Singer: Right. And, um, Auburn is not far from Seneca Falls as well, which we've been to, and just has, you know, the women's history museum and just obviously super, super historical for women's history and women's lib and the suffragettes were very active in western New York.

And it's, it's exciting, you know, um, and it.

[00:13:35] Mariann Sullivan: I find it very moving and I

[00:13:37] Jasmin Singer: Me too.

[00:13:37] Mariann Sullivan: experience, very moving and being in the house. That was one of the houses that she lived in. It was just this old little frame house,

[00:13:45] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:45] Mariann Sullivan: And, you know, she never got much of any money. You know, she finally got part of a pension after years of people fighting for it.

And, You know, she didn't have a lot, but she was just one. I think one of the greatest heroes of this [00:14:00] country.

[00:14:00] Jasmin Singer: Do you feel like, you know, obviously I want to be able to liken all of this to animal rights and maybe we won't be alive when animal liberation is realized. But do you feel like it's different now because of climate change being such an emergency? So like, whereas when Harriet Tubman was around, that wasn't, you know, obviously that was not in the zeitgeist, and so her fight was able to be just about that fight and hopefully there would be a future in which.

You know, slavery would be abolished or in which women had the right to vote and all of that. That future was potentially ahead, but now we're fighting for animal rights while also confronting climate disaster.

[00:14:45] Mariann Sullivan: that's a very complicated and fraught question.

[00:14:49] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:50] Mariann Sullivan: that as hard as it was, I mean, sure it was very hard for them, like before the Civil War and you know, like in the early part of the 18 hundreds to envision [00:15:00] a world changed where there was racial equality. I mean, it's still a little hard to imagine.

[00:15:05] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:15:06] Mariann Sullivan: but, you could imagine it was possible. Now we don't even know what we're getting into. But, you know, actually I have a bunch of things I thought we might talk about today that, that relate to climate change and the relationship between animal agriculture and climate change.

[00:15:19] Jasmin Singer: Before you jump into that, I wanna just reiterate why people are staring at us right now. If you are in fact staring at us right now, it's because we're in like week two, two and a half ish of our new format here. So we're on YouTube and so hi to everyone watching this on YouTube

[00:15:35] Mariann Sullivan: I think the people Who are staring at us probably know why they're staring at us,

[00:15:40] Jasmin Singer: Oh, good point, good point. But we also have divided our podcast up into three different podcasts. So rising anxieties is Tuesdays. The Henry Port, or as we like to call it, the Henry Port, are on Thursdays. And our long form interviews are on Fridays. And so [00:16:00] that's why you have so many episodes of Our Hen House now. I would be really curious what people think about it. So, you know.

[00:16:06] Mariann Sullivan: Well, I,

[00:16:06] Jasmin Singer: us and let us know.

[00:16:07] Mariann Sullivan: not a lot, but it was all positive, so I hope everybody agrees and our interview coming up tomorrow is excellent you know, I, hope that people listen in time, especially if you have started an organization or dream of starting an organization. Because it's with Sebastian Joy, who, he's well known as the founder of ProVeg International or one of the founders.

but now he's working on a new organization, it's called Kickstarting for Good. And it is actually designed to help people who are starting not for profits of all different types. I mean, you know, for transforming the food world.

[00:16:42] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:43] Mariann Sullivan: and, you could, if you have any ideas in that direction, sign on.

You have to do it right away. Their deadline is really soon, and you know, the program is amazing. It involves two trips to Berlin just for that it's worth starting an organization.

[00:16:58] Jasmin Singer: it's a great [00:17:00] interview. By the way, if people are going to give us feedback, there's something else I would like your feedback on. We've sort of been batting back and forth about the length of the interviews because all of the things that I'm reading say that 20 to 30 minutes is kind of the sweet spot for people to listen to podcasts. Our interviews, though, they sometimes go really long.

Yeah, let's talk, let's start to talk about the news a bit. I don't know if you've noticed this. Yeah, I was gonna say

[00:17:27] Mariann Sullivan: of hearing about the Pope. By

[00:17:29] Jasmin Singer: totally. Yeah.

[00:17:30] Mariann Sullivan: I watched one video and now my entire YouTube feed is completely full of priests talking about Catholicism. It's kind of. Boy, they're, they're on the algorithm. I have to

[00:17:40] Jasmin Singer: Yeah,

[00:17:41] Mariann Sullivan: to tell you anyway.

Anyway. But you know, the Pope. It is kind of exciting. He seems like an interesting guy.

but it started me thinking, you know, and I have talked about this before, so forgive me if you have heard me talk about it before, but it, it made me think about how religion in general and Catholicism specifically. Oh, should I [00:18:00] saying that three times fast?

[00:18:01] Jasmin Singer: Catholicism, specifically Catholic. Go ahead.

[00:18:04] Mariann Sullivan: It, you know, just, just falls apart when it comes to animals. It's unbelievable. And so it reminded me that I have looked at the catechism before and the catechism, you know, we learned catechism when we were in grade school, but that was simplified. There is like this thing called the catechism, which kind of like explains to Catholics all the things that they're, you know, it kind of like expands on the commandments to make them a little bit more understandable and explain more about what you're supposed to do and what you're not supposed to do. Then there's this whole section on animals, you'll be surprised to hear. And I just wanted to read some,

[00:18:40] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, go ahead.

[00:18:41] Mariann Sullivan: Some of which, you know, I agree with and most of which I don't, but, it's not for me, you know? 'cause I am not really a believer. I didn't have like the bad experiences with Catholicism that some people had. I just stopped thinking it was true. Some of it, you know, is just like Catholic stuff and some of it. I think [00:19:00] from a Catholic point of view, if you are Catholic, and this is something I say all the time, you know you're gonna go to hell if you keep eating animals. All right, I'm just gonna read a little. Animals are God's creatures.

Starts off good. He surrounds them with his providential care. Also sounds good. He's not doing a great job, I have to say. By their mere existence, they bless him and give him glory. Okay. Thus, men owe them kindness. By men, of course, they mean men and women.

[00:19:25] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:26] Mariann Sullivan: recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals. Now, I bet you've heard of Francis of Assisi, but I bet you haven't heard

[00:19:35] Jasmin Singer: Sure.

[00:19:36] Mariann Sullivan: of St Philip Neri, and I'm just gonna go into him because I was baptized in the Church of St. Philip Neri

[00:19:42] Jasmin Singer: Wow.

[00:19:43] Mariann Sullivan: About him. And apparently he was, like, I looked him up and they said he was a vegetarian.

I bet he was vegan. He was like really, really into animals. He loved them and did all sorts of kind things to animals. I just think that's, I'm so proud to have been baptized at the Church of St. Philip Neri in the Bronx. Alright. [00:20:00] God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image. That would be humans.

Hence, it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. Well, no. Okay. They may be domesticated, blah, blah, blah. Medical and scientific experimentation is a morally acceptable practice, if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives. So far, uh, you know, okay.

It's better than nothing. Alright, this is the part- it is contrary to human dignity. And when they say something's contrary to human dignity, that means they think it's sinful

To cause a nimals to suffer or die needlessly.

[00:20:38] Jasmin Singer: Wow. Say that again.

[00:20:42] Mariann Sullivan: it is contrary to human dignity, to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly.

[00:20:48] Jasmin Singer: Wow.

[00:20:51] Mariann Sullivan: And probably, you know, when this was written or when they thought about it, they thought maybe you had to eat animals. And maybe they're thinking now that some [00:21:00] people have to, they're gonna starve to death if they don't eat animals. But you know, for the rest of us. You're going to hell.

[00:21:06] Jasmin Singer: You crack me up with

[00:21:10] Mariann Sullivan: It is to spend money on them that should, as a priority, go to the relief of human misery. Like what does that mean? Like, isn't it unworthy to spend money on anything that should go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals. One should not direct to them the affection due only to persons like, okay, what?

Whatever, whatever. Who cares? It is contrary to human dignity, to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. That means even if you believe that we have to eat animals, you would have to eat the absolute minimum that you have to eat. I mean, of course you don't have to eat any of them,

and you know, it pretty much it would cover eggs and dairy and everything, because that causes them to suffer and die.

And like, so like I told you, you go to hell. This is it. Like, how can [00:22:00] this be?! I'm sorry, go ahead.

[00:22:02] Jasmin Singer: I can wait.

[00:22:03] Mariann Sullivan: No, I just, it just makes me nuts, you know? How can this be that this is the teaching of the Catholic church and they run around eating meat all the time. It's insane.

[00:22:12] Jasmin Singer: I saw a sticker the other day that said, Nope, I didn't say that. God,

[00:22:18] Mariann Sullivan: Oh, yeah. That's a good sticker.

[00:22:20] Jasmin Singer: yeah.

[00:22:21] Mariann Sullivan: but

[00:22:22] Jasmin Singer: made me think of you.

[00:22:22] Mariann Sullivan: this, well, at least Catholics believed that, apparently, that God said this because it's in the catechism.

[00:22:28] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:22:29] Mariann Sullivan: Everybody's ignoring it. You know, you, I, I think people...you know, there was scene, I think it was with a Buddhist

um, but from, you know, Christpiracy, which covered a lot of different religions and how they fall down on the job when it comes to animals. Who was talking about, you know, how under Buddhism,

It's basically wrong to cause animals to suffer or die. I'm totally paraphrasing and then explained why he ate meat. Because he didn't do [00:23:00] it. He didn't kill them. Like, seriously, you think that kind of thinking is gonna keep you outta hell? Come on.

[00:23:07] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Well, where do we go from here? Do you wanna talk about this Vox story?

[00:23:13] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. All right. I'll move on. You know, the whole pope thing just like gave me an opportunity to talk about my favorite topic

[00:23:18] Jasmin Singer: No, I'm glad.

[00:23:20] Mariann Sullivan: but now we'll move on to like the real world.

[00:23:22] Jasmin Singer: Okay,

[00:23:23] Mariann Sullivan: this is a great article by of course Kenny Torella who writes great articles all the time, and you've probably heard of a number of these things, but I love that he put them all together.

And the name of the article is Every President is Friendly to the Meat Industry, which that's sure the truth, but Trump is taking it to another level. In its first 100 days, the Trump administration has moved to roll back food safety measures, endanger slaughterhouse workers and more, yeah, it's, it's bad.

It's bad. he's basically made a list of the six most consequential actions that the Trump administration has taken to favor the meat [00:24:00] industry. As I mentioned, you'll have heard of some of them. Speeding up slaughter lines at meat processing plants.

Even Kenny Torella, can't call them slaughterhouses? They were insanely fast before. And of course this is horrible for the animals. Absolutely horrible for the animals because more of them slip through without being properly made unconscious.

[00:24:17] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:18] Mariann Sullivan: it's horrible for the workers too. I mean, people just really suffer for a lot of injuries in this industry, and speeding up the lines is guaranteed to make that worse.

[00:24:26] Jasmin Singer: the faster slaughter lines, it's not only more animals who are suffering with, with less oversight, but it, it's more workers and those are obviously often immigrants. Really dangerous conditions.

[00:24:37] Mariann Sullivan: Frequently

the industry loves having illegal immigrants who are beholden to them. Um, rolling back food safety measures.

[00:24:44] Mariann Sullivan: This has to do with the salmonella rules specifically. At the end of the Biden administration, the USDA proposed but never actually finalized a rule that would require poultry companies to limit salmonella levels and, you know. Trump [00:25:00] administration just got rid of that. 'cause that's silly.

Gutting the USDA's Animal Welfare Research Department. I did not know, and I bet you did not know that the USDA had an animal welfare research department.

[00:25:10] Jasmin Singer: I didn't.

[00:25:11] Mariann Sullivan: I don't know why, since they never seemed to be able to put any provisions for animal welfare into effect. But I guess just in case. They were allowed to use their findings about, you know, they, they were researching mutilations and injuries, castration, things like that. How much pain they were experiencing. in case they were ever able to actually put any rules into effect. Now the department basically doesn't exist anymore, allowing the world's largest and perhaps most corrupt meat company to trade on the New York Stock Exchange.

This is a JBS, the world's largest meat company from Brazil. They had been trying to get on the stock exchange for a long time, and the SEC had been diddling around, well, that's over. Increasing poultry industry bailouts for bird flu. This we have talked about ad nauseum, of [00:26:00] course. But more than half of the nearly $2 billion the US has spent on this outbreak has gone to cover poultry companies' losses.

[00:26:07] Jasmin Singer: Mm.

[00:26:07] Mariann Sullivan: Aside from all the money they spend on, uh, you know, helping them kill them all. Banning words and phrase, I had not heard of this one, banning words and phrases about agricultural pollution. I knew that they were policing language around climate change, but this is specifically related to animal ag. This leaked USDA memo revealed that the agricultural research service, which is their in-house scientific research department, can no longer use, there are 110 words and phrases, but some of the samples that Kenny puts here are water pollution, air pollution, soil pollution, groundwater pollution, and climate change. Yeah. 'cause you wouldn't want 'em to use those words in talking about research into agriculture. There's loads more here. As usual, I can only barely cover what is said in one of these stories and there's lots more. So definitely check it out. We'll put [00:27:00] the link in the show notes.

[00:27:01] Jasmin Singer: Well, speaking of the president, let's talk about narcissism because I, you have a, so much of this comes down to power. Who has it and who doesn't? So tell us about this story.

[00:27:13] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, actually I had been thinking kind of independently about, you know, as I'm always thinking. Like the whole question of why do people who care about animals behave so, so badly when it comes to eating them or ignoring what's happening to them.

[00:27:30] Jasmin Singer: That's the question.

[00:27:31] Mariann Sullivan: I'd also just been kind of thinking of the whole thing about narcissism that I kind of think of it as, and I don't, I, I have no psych. This is all thoughts inside my head, not research that I've done or anything that I'm educated about, but you know, we tend to think of narcissists as like the president. People who are narcissists, like dangerous narcissists. And there's loads and loads of stuff written online about narcissism.

It's a big thing, but I actually think that it's kind of just part of human [00:28:00] nature to be narcissistic, and when people are under threat, they get very, you know, self-involved and don't think about what's happening to others. And that's like a form of narcissism. Then I saw this article and I really like keyed into this kind of thought pattern I was having. It's about climate change, A Global Narcissistic Collapse, a Metaphorical Lens on Humanity's Ecological Crisis, and it's in the Anthropocene Review and it's by Stephanie Roast and others. And it's a long article. And it's really talking about how, very keyed into that, that narcissism is a personality trait, but that, you know, a lot of people who are narcissists can feel empathy and actually that for people who, who are narcissistic in any way,

which, you know, in my opinion is virtually, as I was just saying, is virtually everybody, if the threat is big enough, there are better ways to approach them. And so it's talking about climate activism. But I just thought it was also, which, you know, is important to all of us, I think, but [00:29:00] I thought it was also very relevant to animal activism and, A answering that question of why are people able to ignore this? and I think it's to some extent because narcissism is actually just a common, very, very common human trait.

[00:29:17] Jasmin Singer: Well and beyond that, like even when the public cares and even when the science is there, people, I don't know, policies tend to favor industries. You know, especially big meat. I don't think policies are on the side of the people. I think that policies are inherently on the side of industry, whatever industry you're talking about.

[00:29:38] Mariann Sullivan: totally agree, but I was talking more, to some extent more about just how to address people's block in, you know, trying to change those policies. 'cause as hard as it is to imagine those policies need to be changed. I just pulled this one quote, since narcissism is linked to fragile self-identity, policies, and I [00:30:00] think activism as well, I would add should emphasize messaging that does not trigger defensive responses. This means shifting climate narratives, and I would also add animal narratives, from blame and guilt toward empowerment, interconnectedness, and the benefits of adaptation.

[00:30:16] Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

[00:30:17] Mariann Sullivan: know exactly how to do that, but it really did kind of like, like I think blame is really, really not a good way to reach people, and I think it's really not a good way to reach people when they're being narcissistic because it, you know, it narcissism when people fall into a narcissistic place, you know, some people live there like the president, but not everybody lives there. But they might get there under trauma or whatever, or fear. They will not listen to blame, because they wanna think they're better than everybody

[00:30:47] Jasmin Singer: Well, I think this is,

[00:30:48] Mariann Sullivan: psychological trick that people play.

[00:30:51] Jasmin Singer: it is concerning though, because you know, having narcissists in my family of origin, there's nothing that can be done [00:31:00] in my opinion with narcissists and like this is difficult to navigate around.

[00:31:05] Mariann Sullivan: my point, and this is my point, not this article's point more, is that there are people who are narcissists. Like, you know, it's, it's embedded. They're just like that. But almost everybody has some. And, and I think that thinking of narcissism as part of the reason that people refuse to think about what they're doing to animals, even though they kind of care about animals.

And even though, you know, they wanna be good people, but they get into a place where they get very, very self-centered, but not all the time. They can be reached. It's not like, you know, the narcissists in your family who like there's no way getting around of, I think a lot of people's narcissism, like this kind of social narcissism,

[00:31:44] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:45] Mariann Sullivan: thing, like thinking America is better than all the other countries

[00:31:48] Jasmin Singer: my God.

[00:31:49] Mariann Sullivan: any kind of exceptionalism and any kind of like, just whatever it is, you know,

[00:31:55] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:55] Mariann Sullivan: are better than animals. It's a form of narcissism.

[00:31:59] Jasmin Singer: It's a really [00:32:00] good point.

[00:32:00] Mariann Sullivan: but it's not like these people are like, these kind of narcissists that they talk about online or whatever, that you have to be frightened. It is just a, a thing that can, people can kind of go in and out of, I don't know.

I feel like I'm babbling,

[00:32:13] Jasmin Singer: It makes sense. It's fascinating. But let's move on to, an article from Sentient Media. It talks about how Protein Pact hosted a panel at DC Climate Week. And on the surface I would say this sounds promising- Industry Leaders Discussing Sustainability, but let's unpack it.

[00:32:31] Mariann Sullivan: No, it's not, it's not, it's bad.

[00:32:33] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I figured.

[00:32:34] Mariann Sullivan: of fits like I have this whole climate theme. This kind of fits in it as something I've been thinking about a lot. And this is not a hugely important thing for people to know because it's just one incident. This is by Seth Milstein, who does great work at Sentient. How a meat industry PR group is trying to pass itself off is climate friendly.

We just have to remember that the industry is really, really good at this. And this is just a, [00:33:00] you know, I think it was probably a very well intentioned, initiative, in d DC Climate Week, and there were all these different events where people were learning about the climate and this Protein Pact, which is a PR initiative for the livestock industry, managed to work their way in.

And just talk about how, you know, it's not that you have to, to give up meat. They're mostly talking about, you know, buying, credits, to offset their emissions and, you know, just the usual bullshit. But they actually managed to work their way into this program! And that's exactly what they're trying to do. They're trying to position themselves as leaders and anti climate change. And, and that's why it's so important that people have to be paying attention, that you can't just let this stuff wash over you and think that it's gonna be okay.

[00:33:44] Jasmin Singer: Yeah,

[00:33:45] Mariann Sullivan: and so I really appreciated this article is pointing out the kind of thing that they do.

[00:33:50] Jasmin Singer: This is a classic case of greenwashing, I think. And, and by the way, Pact is short for people, animals, and climate of tomorrow. And it's just like a pr [00:34:00] stunt.

[00:34:00] Mariann Sullivan: PR for the industry.

[00:34:01] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. So, Hmm. Fun times.

[00:34:05] Mariann Sullivan: Everybody has to be on top of it with their activism and point these things out.

There was one thing I wanted to add because there was kind of a theme here, and this is if you're listening to the podcast, like as soon as it comes out. And if you're not, why not? But there's this online program on May 20th at 2 PM Eastern, and it's presented by Project Drawdown and it, the, it's a number of speakers talking on The Climate Crisis on Our Plates, Rethinking Food and Farming. Seems to have some really good speakers, including Matthew Hayek. And I just thought I'd mention that since we were on this, that probably would have some useful information there.

[00:34:44] Jasmin Singer: And when you're done, you could turn on the tv, you could turn on Apple tv. In fact, if you get that. There's, I have to tell you, I didn't look at this ahead of time. I just opened it, but it looks like there's a documentary about [00:35:00] human animal bonds.

[00:35:01] Mariann Sullivan: Well, it's not a documentary, it's a show.

[00:35:03] Jasmin Singer: Okay.

[00:35:04] Mariann Sullivan: it's a series. Neither of us have Apple tv, so neither of us have seen it.

[00:35:09] Jasmin Singer: No, I have Apple tea. I have Apple tv,

[00:35:10] Mariann Sullivan: Oh, you you do?

[00:35:11] Jasmin Singer: but I didn't know about this. I have it.

[00:35:14] Mariann Sullivan: Then I have to come over to your house and watch it.

[00:35:16] Jasmin Singer: How else would I watch The Morning Show?

[00:35:19] Mariann Sullivan: Oh, right. Yeah. But the reason that I wanted to mention it is that there was one episode, this is the episode I really wanna see, that featured Ziggy's Refuge, which is this farm animal refuge in North Carolina,

[00:35:31] Jasmin Singer: Wow, I have to watch that.

[00:35:33] Mariann Sullivan: and they're super excited about it.

So I assume it was really good. So I just wanted to mention it 'cause I knew people would like watching that

[00:35:39] Jasmin Singer: Oh, I totally wanna watch. You know, maybe I'll watch it before next week and I could tell you about it. That'll be fun.

[00:35:46] Mariann Sullivan: Well, or you could invite me over and I could watch it with you.

[00:35:49] Jasmin Singer: yeah, sure. Come on over.

[00:35:52] Mariann Sullivan: Oh, you're in Los Angeles. I forgot.

[00:35:54] Jasmin Singer: Come on over. There's room at the inn.

[00:35:58] Mariann Sullivan: All right, [00:36:00] so we do just have a couple of more announcements. One is subscribe on YouTube. Subscribe on YouTube. Subscribe on YouTube. Uh, ' cause we really need you to subscribe on YouTube. Alright. But other than that, we have this upcoming panel discussion, and it's gonna be one of our episodes, but we're also gonna invite our squawk squad. Which is people who donate, at $25 a month and up to be the live audience and ask questions. I'm super excited about it because it's called Roots and Rising, connecting Grassroots Voices. And it's going to be, you know, an episode and we're really going to try to get down to brass tacks on what anyone can do to change the world for animals. You don't have to work for an animal organization. And I know all of you out there are exactly those people who wanna do that. I mean, some of you probably work for organizations, but even if you don't, there's so much you could do and that is what life is about, isn't it?

So, so I can't wait for that. It's going to air on June 6th. The recording itself will be on Sunday afternoon, June [00:37:00] 1st, if you are in the Squawk Squad and you would like to join us,

[00:37:02] Jasmin Singer: And just to clarify, there's like different tiers of flock members. So when we do,

[00:37:07] Mariann Sullivan: I don't really understand it.

[00:37:08] Jasmin Singer: When we do our Flock Fridays event, that's for, you're flock members if you donate $10 or more a month.

Thank you so much for those of you who are in the flock, and then you get to different tiers above that. So, don't cry tears because you can join us if you want to become part of the Squawk Squad, which Mariann loves to say. So, oh, and by the way, I'm not sure if Mariann mentioned this or not, but subscribe on YouTube.

Alright, we'll catch our next episode tomorrow, Friday, which is our interview with Sebastian Joy, which we mentioned. And until next time, thanks for joining us and changing the world for animals.

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