The Hen Report: “A bandaid fix on something rotten to the core” | Vegan Mac & Cheese, Swiss Fur Ban, Melanie Joy’s Fiction Debut

Our Hen House has four podcasts now. Uh, Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays. The Hen Report, this, comes out on Thursdays and the long form interview on most Fridays and the Animal Law Podcast on the last Friday of the month.

And we're on YouTube. So thank you to those of you who are watching us on YouTube. Please subscribe and like us on YouTube. Comment if you'd like.

[00:00:35] Mariann Sullivan: you hate us. no. If you hate us, you're probably not listening. But, uh,

[00:00:40] Jasmin Singer: true.

[00:00:41] Mariann Sullivan: please subscribe.

[00:00:42] Jasmin Singer: I'm excited about today because we're going to have a drop by from one of our, as we call it, a wingman, Melanie Joy.

[00:00:51] Mariann Sullivan: Wingman.

[00:00:52] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, wing woman, in this case. Melanie will be joining us shortly to talk about her new book, but it's not what you think it is. You know her for her Incredibly well-known and revelatory works, like Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs and Wear Cows, and this is a, a novel idea, shall we say.

So I'm excited about that. So let's get to it. You're feeling kind of wilted.

[00:01:19] Mariann Sullivan: I have, uh, Trump, Trump-itis. Yeah. The events of the day are, are really overwhelming me. And I, I don't know, I, I imagine there are other people who feel the same way. It's just gotten really, really a lot

[00:01:34] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Uh,

[00:01:35] Mariann Sullivan: scary.

I don't wanna dwell on bad things, but, uh, it's scary.

[00:01:39] Jasmin Singer: My best friend Erica, and I call it Tet, she made it up TET. I think I've said this before, which is Trump exacerbated trauma. And so just throughout the day we'll just text each each other Tet and yeah, there's a lot of TET-ing, uh, lately. You know what's so scary about what's going on in, oh, hello Eugene.

[00:01:58] Mariann Sullivan: Eugene is upset too. He, he, he came over

[00:02:01] Jasmin Singer: He's also gonna, if pe for people listening to this and not watching it, uh, if you hear some interruption with the mic, it's Eugene the cat.

[00:02:10] Mariann Sullivan: Eugene really loves this mic.

[00:02:11] Jasmin Singer: He's rubbing himself against it and not, he would be mortified if he knew that like millions of people are listening to him.

[00:02:18] Mariann Sullivan: he, he does not want one other human to ever see him.

[00:02:20] Jasmin Singer: No. I know. I know. So, oh, there he is, rubbing against the mic. Okay. And there's his cat butt. Okay. You saw it here first. Can you imagine what he would think if he knew we were looking at his butthole?

[00:02:34] Mariann Sullivan: whole thing like would horrify him so deeply.

[00:02:38] Jasmin Singer: So, speaking of horrifying things, deeply. The thing that's so horrifying about this, and like, I know I'm stating the obvious, but this is really scary. The, the, the division between truth and and lies in terms of what's being reported has gotten so vast that like, it, it's so alarming that

[00:03:01] Mariann Sullivan: I mean, that's been going on for a long time,

[00:03:03] Jasmin Singer: I know, but, but with.

[00:03:04] Mariann Sullivan: worse and worse instead

[00:03:05] Jasmin Singer: But with this in particular, with, with what's going on in LA and the way it's being reported and the military.

[00:03:13] Mariann Sullivan: As well.

[00:03:14] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, it's scary times out there and we're gonna talk about animals because it's also really scary times for animals and it's no reason for us to not talk about that.

[00:03:26] Mariann Sullivan: times for animals, and I think that we're either more used to or more sensitive to the idea of, of the frustration of a whole lot of people not believing the truth or not being aware of the truth or being in denial about the truth. 'cause that's what we live with all the time

And we know how hard it is to fix.

[00:03:47] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:03:47] Mariann Sullivan: I, you know, I think when this sort of thing goes on it, it just brings up all of that as well. I don't know. It's bad.

[00:03:54] Jasmin Singer: All right. Well, I, we have most, despite what we just said, we have mostly good news to report today.

[00:04:00] Mariann Sullivan: of deliberate.

[00:04:01] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. But this first one,

[00:04:03] Mariann Sullivan: the first story is not,

I just wanted to talk about this because, you know, obviously we're talking a lot about immigration and immigrants and the industry, I mean, as I've mentioned many times, the animal ag industry is, you know, kind of freaked out about all of this because they hire loads and loads and loads of undocumented people. They will be screwed if they have to stop that. ' cause they would have to start paying people, you know, a living wage, which they don't wanna have to do that. So, so they have these special visas in agriculture. Clearly this doesn't, I mean, even for plant-based agriculture, this doesn't fix everything for them.

But these H one A visas allow people who have seasonal needs in agriculture to bring people in under these special visas, which, you know, allow them to stay for a certain amount of time. Kind of reminds me of like indentured servants, you know, they, they're totally beholden to the people who employ them and they can't go anywhere else.

And, after they work a certain amount of time and they get paid whatever they get paid, then they go back to their home country. It's pretty bad. But the animal ag industry isn't even allowed to use that. 'cause they're, it's not seasonal, you know, they torture those animals. 24 7, 365. So there's nothing seasonal about it. So they're not eligible for H one A visas, and my theory, and I have recently seen this article that kind of bears it out, is that. You know, I think I've heard them mention it too, it's not like I made this up. They're gonna try to get H one A visas or something like them applicable to animal agriculture so they can bring these people in who will be totally beholden to them, who won't be able to go and get different jobs. Uh, and, you know, we'll work for whatever crap they wanna pay them and that will fix their problem.

[00:05:49] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:05:50] Mariann Sullivan: I just have no doubt that agriculture is not gonna get screwed by what's going on now. They

[00:05:56] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:05:56] Mariann Sullivan: In California, at least they are starting to do raids on farms. But I think that's just the first step in, like creating a crisis that they will then fix by maybe making the visas easier for plant-based agriculture and giving the visas to, um, animal based, quote unquote agriculture. And, you know, there's obviously a solution here. Which is that they could pay people a living wage and you know, higher than a living wage because it's horrible work. And that's how capitalism works,

[00:06:23] Jasmin Singer: It's unreal.

[00:06:24] Mariann Sullivan: harder and more brutal and bad, then you pay people more to do it, and then they will do it.

But that's not what they wanna do. They wanna find people who have absolutely no options.

[00:06:34] Jasmin Singer: This is what they think is like a bandaid fix on something that is rotten to the core, in so many ways. Like we're talking about the people without recourse, without safety, without dignity. Milking cows 365 days a year, and we're talking about the cows who are forced to produce milk around the clock and their lives and bodies are squeezed for profit.

[00:06:57] Mariann Sullivan: also, I mean, it's the psychological toll too, aside from the, physical toll. I was talking about this new movie coming out soon

[00:07:05] Jasmin Singer: Mm.

[00:07:05] Mariann Sullivan: not that soon, I don't know when it's coming out, on Rising Anxieties, Kenny Torella had written an article about it in Vox about the absolute mental trauma that people in animal ag, particularly slaughterhouse workers, he's talking about, undergo. But, you know, all of it is, is mentally exhausting. There's really high rates of alcoholism, of mental illness, of PTSD. There's this special kind of PTSD, which I forget the initials for, but it's the kind of PTSD that is suffered by people who cause, who cause physical harm.

[00:07:34] Jasmin Singer: Mm.

[00:07:35] Mariann Sullivan: Um, and this would, you know, common in soldiers, like it's, and all of these things happen to these people. They get paid crap and then they get sent home to their country and they're beholden to the people who they work for.

[00:07:48] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:07:49] Mariann Sullivan: Really like indentured servants,

[00:07:52] Jasmin Singer: Uh,

[00:07:52] Mariann Sullivan: after seven years of indentured servitude, which, you know, they had in the olden days, you get to leave

[00:07:59] Jasmin Singer: yeah.

[00:08:00] Mariann Sullivan: These people.

It's just like, it is their life.

[00:08:03] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:03] Mariann Sullivan: ever get out of it.

[00:08:05] Jasmin Singer: Unbelievable. All right, well, let's move to some good news. I wanna tell you, I wanna give you a,

[00:08:09] Mariann Sullivan: the rest of the

[00:08:10] Jasmin Singer: i, let me give you a visual. Yeah. All the rest.

[00:08:12] Mariann Sullivan: news,

[00:08:13] Jasmin Singer: I wanna start by painting a picture for you. So just picture me 25 years ago, you know, a college junior and I was in my little apartment in, in Brooklyn Heights, my little like apartment for college students and it had a microwave but no stove.

You could use the stove in the building, but I never would do that. I was a vegetarian at the time and all I ate was not only mac and cheese, but it was like this, this microwavable kind of mac and cheese. So I had, I, I mean it was so much waste like because it was in styrofoam and I had like piles and piles and piles of like craft macaroni and cheese and that's pretty much what I subsisted on.

[00:09:02] Mariann Sullivan: I don't think I ever had microwaveable mac and cheese. I used to get the little packages all the

[00:09:07] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, no, this was a moment.

[00:09:09] Mariann Sullivan: and,

[00:09:10] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, no, for sure, for sure. And, and we've, yeah, and we have the vegan version of what you're talking about.

[00:09:16] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

[00:09:17] Jasmin Singer: but now Kraft Heinz and Notco have teamed up to launch a vegan version of instant mac and cheese cups, which is what I am referring to here. It's just three and a half minutes in the microwave.

You got that nostalgic creamy bite, but this time it's vegan. Yeah. Totally terrible for the environment. So I'm, I'm Celebr.

[00:09:35] Mariann Sullivan: healthy, but I want it right now.

[00:09:37] Jasmin Singer: Well,

[00:09:37] Mariann Sullivan: Like right this minute. Is it for sale now? 'cause I wanna go to the store and get it.

[00:09:42] Jasmin Singer: Well, if you do get it, give me, give me the empty container. 'cause I'm gonna try and like create some weird subversive art project from it. Um, yeah.

[00:09:53] Mariann Sullivan: I'm not participating in inflicting that upon the world. They also talk about, in this article, which was in, on Plant-based News, they also talk about some other, new Kraft Heinz products, including jello, oat milk, chocolate pudding. Yeah. I'm in

[00:10:07] Jasmin Singer: Oh my God. Oh

[00:10:10] Mariann Sullivan: Let's see, what else? Are you laughing at

my cat?

[00:10:13] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I was,

[00:10:14] Mariann Sullivan: like it's, so he's, he, he is just really,

[00:10:18] Jasmin Singer: love him. Yeah, I know. So honestly, convenience.

[00:10:24] Mariann Sullivan: were more in here too, like, this is a partnership between Kraft Heinz, which is now the same company, and Notco.

[00:10:30] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:31] Mariann Sullivan: know, Notco is one of the most successful dairy, um, quote unquote dairy companies.

[00:10:38] Jasmin Singer: Like convenience foods like these are part of how we shift the culture and you know, it's. It's processed and it's corporate, but for busy people, for curious eaters, for, for people like me when I was 20. It's so great, you know? We'll, we'll work on the,

[00:10:56] Mariann Sullivan: The choices, there's original and white cheddar and there's gonna be a Chipotle. No, the Chipotle is going to be a mayonnaise. I want it all, basically,

[00:11:05] Jasmin Singer: You want to eat your feelings about Tet. Eat your Tet Feelings. Alright, well, let's talk about Switzerland.

[00:11:10] Mariann Sullivan: the really big news I have to

[00:11:12] Jasmin Singer: That. Yeah. No, everything from here is downhill.

[00:11:14] Mariann Sullivan: yeah.

[00:11:15] Jasmin Singer: So, well, except for Melanie. Uh, let's talk about Switzerland because it's become the first country in Europe to ban imports of cruelly produced fur.

But isn't it a little more complicated than that?

[00:11:27] Mariann Sullivan: Well, yeah, I mean there's been some criticism of this. I mean, not really criticism. I think this article is from, for Paws, the organization, and it's just saying it could be better. But it's really, really good. They're exempting, for some reason, fur from traps that are designed to kill instantly, which are Kona bear traps, which do not necessarily kill instantly.

So that's really unfortunate. You know, some lobby was probably in there, but basically, yeah, this is huge. The whole country imposing an import ban on almost all fur. And you know, it's just like the fur industry is down and it is a really great time for anybody to be kicking them. And, according to this article, worldwide fur production declined by 85% between 2013 and 2023.

So it is time to pull the plug.

[00:12:12] Jasmin Singer: Yeah,

[00:12:14] Mariann Sullivan: There are cities in the US that have banned, completely banned the sale of fur. This is the first country in Europe to do this, so

[00:12:21] Jasmin Singer: Okay. Well. I'm excited. It, it's a solid milestone, but I think that we could, we could do a little better Switzerland, but, uh, yeah. We'll, we'll celebrate it.

[00:12:32] Mariann Sullivan: you know, it's probably.

[00:12:34] Jasmin Singer: celebrate it. We'll celebrate it. Okay. Let's talk about something else to celebrate, because I'm super excited about this. A judge has blocked a gag order.

Tell us about it since you're the lawyer.

[00:12:44] Mariann Sullivan: outrageous, so outrageous. When you're all familiar with Zoe Rosenberg, I'm sure you've heard her on the podcast a couple of times. And, her trial is coming up, for rescuing chickens. And you know, she's facing a lot of time in prison though. They just dropped the theft charge. Uh, which is probably because they wanna be able to block certain evidence of the condition of the animals, which would be the defense to the theft charge. But they also are trying to gag her that, I mean, which is very, very unusual. It's not like the gag orders are standard in these cases, and the prosecution had

sought a gag order prohibiting her from publicly discussing her case ahead of a high profile felony trial. Uh, Have they heard about the first amendment? And the judge was kind of outraged, I think. He described the gag order as I think it was a he. Yeah. Kenneth, I assume it's a he, as overbroad and vague by any constitutional standard. also they've been talking about it, her critics have been talking about it. Uh, president of the California Poultry Federation described the rescue as a terrorist act, so apparently they're allowed to use language like terrorist act, and she's not allowed to talk about it at all. Just outrageous. So I'm glad that the court did the right thing here.

[00:13:59] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, we'll be following this closely, her trial starts in September.

[00:14:03] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

[00:14:04] Jasmin Singer: So last week or two weeks ago, I don't understand time anymore, we had a fantastic panel on grassroots activism and one of the guests we had was, sorry. Does your cat have something else to say? I'll, I'll, I'll wait, I'll

[00:14:20] Mariann Sullivan: with my cats today.

[00:14:21] Jasmin Singer: wait.

[00:14:21] Mariann Sullivan: Like they're very emotional today.

[00:14:24] Jasmin Singer: No, that's okay. We're, it's an animal rights podcast. They're animals. They deserve the right to talk. Go ahead. Okay, they're done.

[00:14:31] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah,

[00:14:32] Jasmin Singer: alright. So one of the people we had on was Carrie LeBlanc, and she talked about the Colorado Parks and Wildlife situation with elephants, and there's been an update on that.

Colorado Parks and Wildlife has just refused a permit for elephants to appear at the Renaissance festival near Larks Spur citing a state law that bars performing elephants under the guise of entertainment. So this decision follows pressure from advocacy groups like Animal Activist Legal Defense Project, arguing that traveling,

[00:15:04] Mariann Sullivan: Activist Legal Defense Project, I think were the lawyers there. But also I think Carrie mentioned that PETA

[00:15:09] Jasmin Singer: yes.

[00:15:10] Mariann Sullivan: and of course, Compassion Works International, which she represented, was involved. And I don't know, there might have been others too. I don't wanna like leave anybody out, but nice work everybody..

[00:15:19] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, and I, I did just do a quick search before we started recording to see. There are other statewide bans on wild animal acts. As of 2025, at least 12 states have barred elephants and often other wild species like big cats or bears and primates from traveling shows and circuses. There's cities and counties joining in over 150 municipalities across 37 states like San Francisco and Boulder and Missoula, et cetera, et cetera.

So there is a paradigm shift.

[00:15:47] Mariann Sullivan: about these. I it's really important because of what the animals go through, because of course their lives in these, like hokey traveling shows are awful. But it's so important because of what it says to the people who see them.

[00:16:00] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:01] Mariann Sullivan: time people see things like this, they get a message of what these animals are for, and they absorb that message. And this is just, I, I, I just was thinking that because there's this picture here of... this horrible picture of this poor little elephant with flowers around her head and all these people gawking and they're just thinking that this is the way the world is supposed to be.

And you know what? It's not.

[00:16:21] Jasmin Singer: Right. Well, Colorado's move, I think it's not just policy, it's part of this tectonic shift, I guess you could say. And, I think it's great. The message is very clear. Wild animals belong in nature or sanctuaries, not cages or props. So let's move on because uh, we have more good news, which is so great. Why don't you tell us about this one?

[00:16:44] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, this is from the uk from Animal Rising, and there have been a number of prosecutions amongst these types of campaigners. And, and some of them have not turned out well, but there were three Animal Rising campaigners who were recently tried, uh, for public nuisance after taking action in 2022. in a dairy focused campaign. You know, I think there was some like civil disobedience, or maybe it wasn't disobedience, whatever. They were all acquitted and they, you know, this has been going on for a long time. They've been under this pressure. They had to go to court and they had a trial and they were all acquitted.

So, yay.

[00:17:20] Jasmin Singer: That's so great. The law doesn't always, the law doesn't always side with industry.

[00:17:25] Mariann Sullivan: like public attitudes are like shift and all of a sudden, like people are a little bit more open to hearing

[00:17:32] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:33] Mariann Sullivan: that. That people are sticking up for the innocent or whatever.

[00:17:38] Jasmin Singer: Sometimes the law sides with conscience and not industry. So that is exciting.

[00:17:44] Mariann Sullivan: Thank

[00:17:45] Jasmin Singer: is exciting.

[00:17:46] Mariann Sullivan: a good bumper sticker.

[00:17:48] Jasmin Singer: Let's talk. No, it's a terrible bumper sticker. Let's talk about, uh, protein.

[00:17:53] Mariann Sullivan: Finally. I mean, not that I've been waiting to get to it, though I have been, but you know, this is our last article. This is an article that I thought people might find useful in the insane protein conversations that we are constantly dragged into still.

This is by our friend Marina Bolotnikova, who's been on the podcast and it's for Vox.

You're Being Lied to About Protein is the title. Yes. Protein builds muscle. No, you don't need as much as lifting influencers say. And she's talking specifically about, you know, athletes and lifting influencers or fit influencers. Of course the whole world tells you you need more protein than you do.

And I, I'm personally experiencing that a lot because there's a lot of talk about how as you get older you need more and more and more protein. And the other thing that's so frustrating about it is that the people who tell you this, and everybody still just believes that all the only source of protein is animal foods.

It's unbelievable how stupid people are. I

[00:18:52] Jasmin Singer: Yeah,

[00:18:53] Mariann Sullivan: never get over it.

[00:18:54] Jasmin Singer: I, um, I have to say too, that like protein is, is really having a moment, like I see it on TV constantly. Like, what are the, and, and not only that, but. Yeah, but it's also showing up. I got an ad this morning and after this conversation I'll get more ads because my phone is right here listening to me.

But I, I got an ad this morning for like, are you a perimenopausal woman? Than you need more protein. Especially, and

[00:19:23] Mariann Sullivan: like, does perimenopause now start at 35? Like, like, not that you're 35,

[00:19:27] Jasmin Singer: no, I'm,

[00:19:28] Mariann Sullivan: they just seem to be lowering the age that

[00:19:31] Jasmin Singer: don't, I will.

[00:19:32] Mariann Sullivan: about, about their, their,

[00:19:35] Jasmin Singer: Well, I mean, you know, I'm, I'm 45 and I would say they say it could go on for 10 years, so I don't know.

[00:19:44] Mariann Sullivan: longer. I think it's just the whole perimenopause thing is an attempt to medicalize womanhood.

[00:19:50] Jasmin Singer: However, it's also trying to normal, it's trying to normalize.

[00:19:53] Mariann Sullivan: I'm gonna get emails.

[00:19:54] Jasmin Singer: It's trying to normalize something as well, so like maybe the pendulum will find the right spot in the middle because no one has talked about menopause or perimenopause and in the last couple years that's been changing and I think that that's great. but regarding the protein part of it, I have always thought that, that it's way blown out of proportion how much people need to focus on protein 'cause we just don't look like a protein deprived country. But that being said, it is something I pay attention to because I, I lift weights. I lift weights, by the way, because I got really weak, like in the last year, I just started to hardly be able to open the door at like the, at the radio studio, you know, 'cause it's like air vacuum tight. So it's like you push it and I was like, did someone change these doors? And then I realized, no, it's me.

[00:20:43] Mariann Sullivan: Well, anyway, getting back to the article, there's a lot of detail in it. Like, she knows a lot about this because she is athletic herself and there's a recommendation that weightlifters aim for between 0.54 and 0.73 grams of protein per pound. And a lot of the advice out there is like one gram of protein per pound, which is probably completely ridiculous.

And she does go, go on that, um, One of the reasons it's hard to determine how much, this is particularly with the aging issue, but with other issues as well, that people's muscle loss might be more due to being sedentary than not getting enough protein. It's hard to separate those things out and we just shouldn't be worrying about it as much.

We should be worrying about it a bit. We should get a, a variety of foods, legumes, grains, nuts, vegetables throughout the day, and as you know, I, I have had issues with not getting enough protein. And the whole key to it is the variety. You can't just eat one type of plant-based food that has protein and expect to get all you, your amino acids.

Amino acids from plants are not quite as absorbable as from animals. I think. I don't quote me on that. But you know, there are a few issues. This article goes through them all and it's a great article to show to people who tell you. Like it just drives me crazy. Somebody said to me recently, the only source of protein I have is really eggs. Like

[00:22:09] Jasmin Singer: What.

[00:22:09] Mariann Sullivan: are you eating any other food? Because there's probably protein in all of it,

[00:22:13] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:22:14] Mariann Sullivan: but people really still believe that it's what we started. We started out talking about the fact that we are used to,

To knowing things and being really sure of them. And I was talking about what's happening to the animals, but it's true about this too that everybody else just seems to not know about.

And I think it's one of the things that makes us so scared right now, not to bring it back to the difficult, uh, what did you call it, Tet?

[00:22:37] Jasmin Singer: Tet. Yeah. Trump exacerbated trauma.

[00:22:41] Mariann Sullivan: Trump exacerbated trauma. Yeah.

[00:22:43] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I think that maybe it was at some point Trump era trauma, but whatever. Tet. Okay. Well, I want to continue with the good news because our, our wing man of the day is almost here, and Melanie Joy probably needs no introduction, certainly to those of you tuning in right now, but just in case, she is a psychologist specializing in relationships, communication, and social change.

The founder of the organization Beyond Carism and the author of many books, but, as I mentioned earlier, perhaps the one you know the best is the absolutely groundbreaking Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs and Wear Cows. And she's here to talk about her latest book, A Half-Hearted Death Wish. So I think she's gonna pop in in just a second.

And here she is. Welcome back to Our Hen House, Melanie.

[00:23:34] Dr Melanie Joy: Hi. It's so good to be here again and to see you again.

[00:23:38] Jasmin Singer: I I got to see you at AVA a few weeks

[00:23:41] Dr Melanie Joy: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:41] Mariann Sullivan: I haven't seen you in, I haven't seen you in person, and I can't even imagine how long, so it's lovely to see your face.

[00:23:48] Dr Melanie Joy: Definitely. You too. You haven't changed. I saw you I think over a decade ago. It was shortly after Why We Love Dogs first came out and we were running through the rain, um,

[00:23:56] Mariann Sullivan: Oh

[00:23:57] Jasmin Singer: New York City.

[00:23:58] Mariann Sullivan: yeah.

[00:23:58] Dr Melanie Joy: City.

[00:23:59] Mariann Sullivan: were in some, I guess it was a hotel where you were staying like in Midtown

[00:24:04] Dr Melanie Joy: That's right.

[00:24:04] Mariann Sullivan: Kitchen.

[00:24:05] Dr Melanie Joy: It was somewhere. It was, it was a hotel I was staying at. Yeah. And it feels like, as you know, you were just saying yesterday feels like a lifetime ago. That really feels like multiple lifetimes ago.

[00:24:14] Jasmin Singer: 100 percent.

[00:24:15] Mariann Sullivan: Though sometimes I find it, it works the other way that that seems like it just happened yesterday seriously. But I'm probably just trying to forget what's going on in the world. But yesterday, I can't. All this week, I, I have been confusing what day it was and I, you know, it's not like we had Monday off, but you know how that happens when, uh, there's just too much going on. That's my excuse anyway.

[00:24:37] Jasmin Singer: So,

[00:24:37] Dr Melanie Joy: the, the memory is getting all jumbled.

[00:24:39] Jasmin Singer: yeah. Well, I mean. This leads me to my first question before we get into your book.

My big question, this is actually why we invited you here. You live in Berlin. Can we move in with you?

[00:24:51] Dr Melanie Joy: Um, I, my God, I would be so happy when you and I were talking at Ava, we were talking about how we wish we lived closer. So here's a way to make that happen. Come

[00:25:01] Jasmin Singer: to happen because I.

would really enjoy like evening wine time with you, but I also need to get the

[00:25:07] Mariann Sullivan: I think, I think you would have to, you would have to adopt us though, Melanie. Like

[00:25:11] Jasmin Singer: you adopt us?

[00:25:12] Mariann Sullivan: Germany's

[00:25:13] Dr Melanie Joy: I'd have to, I'd have to sponsor you. Yeah, I'd have to foster you or something.

[00:25:17] Mariann Sullivan: Sounds great. Yeah,

[00:25:18] Jasmin Singer: Vicki can

[00:25:19] Mariann Sullivan: I'm gonna call you mom for the rest of this interview.

[00:25:21] Jasmin Singer: Don't do that. Don't do that. Okay. But yeah. All right. Let's talk about your book because it's so good and it's so different from anything that we've ever interviewed you about, and it's called A Half Hearted Death Wish, and I, I got to read it early on. So you have now birthed it, so mazeltov, congratulations. How does it feel to have this out in the world?

[00:25:43] Dr Melanie Joy: Thank you. It feels great. And thank you again for your support. We were talking while I was writing it. You were one of my inspirations for writing a book. Um, you know, you have had conversations with me to help me really think about the best use of my time and directions I could be going in, so I appreciate it so much. Um, and it feels really good. It actually felt really good writing it, which was a pleasant surprise for me because it's my eighth book and my first seven books were nonfiction and I was always a very, very unhappy writer. Um, I just, I. Writing nonfiction was something I never enjoyed doing and I used to dread doing, and I only did it because I would have an idea that I felt like needed to be written about, needed to be out there, and I felt like I was the one to do it.

And so I would do it out of obligation, and it was a pleasant surprise to discover that I actually don't hate writing. I just hate writing nonfiction.

[00:26:41] Mariann Sullivan: After seven books. it's an awkward time to discover that, but I'm glad you did. I hope there'll be many more fiction books coming out.

[00:26:48] Jasmin Singer: I can't even tell you how much that resonates with me. I like truly, I, I only wrote one fiction book and I loved every second of it. There was this whole inner world. Was that what the process was like for you? Just like, thinking about the characters throughout the day? Tell us a little bit about the process of writing and then we're gonna get into the actual plot and the actual book itself.

[00:27:12] Dr Melanie Joy: Yeah, sure. Well, first of all, I will say having read your fiction book, that it's great and I loved reading it. I loved the experience and I can't wait until that's birthed and out there in the world.

[00:27:23] Jasmin Singer: It's a very long gestation period.

[00:27:25] Dr Melanie Joy: yeah.

[00:27:25] Jasmin Singer: the, the, the kicks are off the charts.

[00:27:29] Dr Melanie Joy: I get it. And I know. It was interesting because I had always wanted to write a fiction book. I always wanted to write a novel. I was always a creative actually. And the expectation for me with my life, was that I was going to go into the arts somehow. I mean, my mother was an artist when she met my father.

My father was a professional musician. And, and that's where I excelled in school, you know, particularly music, but also in other forms of the arts. So the idea was like I was supposed to get a scholarship to go to music school.

[00:27:59] Jasmin Singer: Wow.

[00:28:00] Dr Melanie Joy: and if I didn't decide to do that or I didn't do that, I was gonna go into something, whether it was like dramatic arts or writing, you know, whatever.

So, but that didn't happen. That wasn't my path. I ended up going into academia and sort of got my creative fulfillment through writing my ideas down or writing and directing videos that we have. And I just told myself like, okay, this is like whatever, scratching the creative itch.

But it wasn't really, and then when I started when I decided to write fiction, finally to write the book, I was pleasantly surprised and I was very immersed in it and I was loving getting to know the characters. And I mean, it wasn't like I just sat down and like let the book write itself or something.

I mean, I did do plotting and you know, a lot of research before writing the book just to learn how to write a fiction book. But then when I finally was able to sit down and write, I was in flow, you know, for the first time in a very, very long time. And it wasn't all flow because writing is hard, you know?

But enough of it was that it felt very aligned and I was like, oh, it took me 58 years to figure out that this is like what makes my heart sing the way that it does. And that's not to say that I wasn't happy or haven't been happy running Beyond Carnism and doing the work that we do.

I think it's great and I'm incredibly privileged to live my dream. I, I know that. But it was a very fun and in enlightening process for me.

[00:29:25] Mariann Sullivan: You mentioned, Melanie, that your other books, I think you said you had an idea that you really wanted to come out and, you know, you know, with the work process and whatever, was this book also an idea that you wanted to come out, or was it just like the, the characters started to live in and live their own lives and you wrote it down?

[00:29:43] Dr Melanie Joy: Yeah, it's a really interesting question. So I knew that I wanted to write fiction, but I didn't feel justified in writing fiction. I didn't feel like I could give myself permission to do it, but I knew that I wanted to do it. And because of that, I never let myself really think about the idea of what I would write because I knew that as soon as I started kind of like noodling different topics for a book that suddenly I would get all, like, get in this creative spin and frenzy. And I didn't want that to happen 'cause I didn't wanna be like basically carrying this baby for so long. So I kind of forced it out of my mind and I didn't play around with it, but the minute that I realized this is the right thing for me to do, and, no, I wouldn't say the minute, the day, the day after I had a conversation with somebody and was like, okay, I'm gonna actually really consider doing this. I got on a plane to get home from somewhere I had been. I sat on the plane and I thought, okay, let me open my mind and think about this now.

And about an hour and a half later, I had just taken 10 pages of notes and basically the concept for the story and the whole arc just kind of like came out and it was a very weird thing. It just felt like it just kind of came out. And then from there I was structuring and, and things like that.

But a lot of the ideas, they just kind of came to me as I was filling in this outline that had come to my mind. It was almost like the characters were emerging as I was writing them.

[00:31:05] Jasmin Singer: I'm so happy for you. That is like the best feeling like it. And it also, what you're talking about speaks to the importance of, you know, activists and longtime activists and advocates just really nurturing our creative selves too. I mean like, I feel like that about Mariann. 'cause she had a career as a lawyer. And I, I see you as a very creative person and you know, and my wife also works in academia and is like probably the most creative person I know.

I think it's like, it's almost like our imperative to nurture that part of ourselves.

[00:31:42] Mariann Sullivan: Well, I mean, I just wanna add that. And I think you alluded to this as well, Melanie, there's creativity in almost every endeavor. It's different

[00:31:52] Dr Melanie Joy: Right.

[00:31:53] Mariann Sullivan: and

[00:31:54] Dr Melanie Joy: right.

[00:31:54] Mariann Sullivan: just artistic creativity, but every endeavor is much more enjoyable if you're bringing your creativity to it and you're allowed to do that and able to do it.

[00:32:02] Dr Melanie Joy: Yeah, that's true. And that's really, really well said. And it's really a matter of like finding out what kinds of creativity really help you kind of feel sustainable and get into your own, your own flow. And it's gonna look different for different types of people. But like, you know, to your point, Jasmin too, like we as activists and advocates, like we need to nurture ourselves.

Because it's not easy being awake to the fact that we live in the midst of a global atrocity, uhhuh. I mean, among other things. And also because creativity, I mean this, it plays... artists. Let's just look at artists. Artists in all shapes and forms have played an incredibly important role in bringing about social transformation throughout history.

You know, whether it's through music or through movies or through writing or other forms of, of creativity. and it does tend to be, I think a lot of people, especially activists, we don't always give ourselves permission to do what fuels us because there's so much that we need to do as activists and also just kind of keeping our lives together so we can do our activism.

[00:33:02] Jasmin Singer: Totally. Totally. So well said. Okay. A Half-hearted Death Wish, which I'm holding here, has been described as a psychological suspense novel with surreal twists and offbeat humor. And the novel it, it does blend these very heavy psychological themes with like moments of absurdity and a dark humor that really spoke to my soul.

So tell me about that balance and like how you see humor as a tool for dealing with, you know, layered or maybe painful topics.

[00:33:37] Dr Melanie Joy: Humor is just really, really important in, in my life anyway. And people have different relationships with humor, right? For some people, humor is not that important to them. For a lot of people, humor is an important tool and it can be a coping mechanism to cope with things that are difficult.

And it just, when we can see the humor in things that we can see the humor in, it helps us take ourselves and life a lot, uh, or at least a little less seriously. And it can help sort of like lighten heaviness as well. And it just makes our experience and our lives more enjoyable. And humor has always played a very important role in my life.

And this is also sort of a part of my personality, I guess you could say. That hasn't come forth as much in my work, in my writing. I mean, certainly in my in-person trainings, people can see it. But, but certainly not in the rest of my work so much. Um, so it was really nice to be able to bring it into the book.

And I, I wanted to write a book that was sort of in the, I don't know, I guess in the vein of, I don't know what the style you would call is. Like, life is beautiful or baby reindeer, you know, which are about topics that are serious and, and really deal with trauma. But to be able to weave together like not just lightness, but actual humor in order to make the experience like more, I don't know what I would say more palatable and actually make the experience enjoyable. I mean, I just think if you can laugh, that goes a long way.

[00:34:59] Jasmin Singer: totally. I, and you are a very funny, witty, like, it's like a smart humor as a person,

[00:35:05] Dr Melanie Joy: thank you.

[00:35:06] Jasmin Singer: that that really came through. Something that readers will learn almost right away in the book is that the protagonist, Emma Parkland, faces a mysterious and deadly condition called sudden onset suicidality. So how did you

develop this condition and and what does it symbolize in this story?

[00:35:28] Dr Melanie Joy: Well, yeah, so the story is about this psychologist who's in excellent mental health and she wakes up one day to discover that her will to live has completely vanished and it's been replaced by a burning desire to die. So she just basically becomes suicidal and she's like, has no idea where this came from.

And she's almost thinking of it as like some sort of weird psychological flu

[00:35:52] Mariann Sullivan: say,

[00:35:52] Dr Melanie Joy: and.

[00:35:53] Mariann Sullivan: hilarious so far.

[00:35:55] Jasmin Singer: It actually is. actually is, but go. Go on Melanie.

[00:35:59] Dr Melanie Joy: Hence the not funny part of it.

[00:36:00] Jasmin Singer: right?

[00:36:01] Dr Melanie Joy: Um,

[00:36:01] Jasmin Singer: funny.

[00:36:02] Dr Melanie Joy: She's, she's on this journey of discovery to try to figure out what's wrong with her because she knows as a psychologist especially that the unconscious has a way of, you know, getting its needs met. And if she's unconsciously and even consciously suicidal, then she's probably gonna, you know, eventually

kill herself whether she wants to or not. And she needs to, to figure out what's wrong with her before she kills herself and basically destroys the lives of, of everyone who depends on her, including her own life. And she does discover early on in the book that she has a condition called Sudden Onset Suicidality, or SOS, and it's like a bizarre, very rare condition that has a 94% fatality rate and no known cure.

And this condition is, it's made up. So all of the other psychological conditions that I describe in the book, and some of them are very strange, like Alice in Wonderland syndrome, right? And, they are real, they exist. But, but SOS I actually made up. And so Emma is on a search for the cause to what caused her SOS so that she can then hopefully find the cure.

[00:37:06] Jasmin Singer: Hmm. it's a very, very clever book. And I'm just curious, was any of it based on your life? I mean, I'm seeing a psychologist and a psychologist... tell us a little bit about that. Are there little echoes of Melanie in here?

[00:37:22] Dr Melanie Joy: Well, I mean, I think all works of fiction are, you know, at least partly autobiographical. So the short answer is yes. I had one person who read it and like finished it and then got on a call with me and was like, Hey Melanie, I just wanna ask you, uh, before I give you any feedback, are you okay?

[00:37:38] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah,

[00:37:39] Jasmin Singer: that's funny.

[00:37:39] Dr Melanie Joy: so. It was quite sweet. And so I'm not suicidal. Um, and Emma is, uh, definitely modeled after me. And, she's actually an, uh, an amalgam, is that the right word? She's modeled after me and my best friend who's a, a psychotherapist, um, the two of us. So, yeah, so some of it and some characters are characters from my life actually with different names.

And a lot of it is actually made up. Yeah, but I can say, I mean, one character, I can say Emma's brother Nick is my brother. Like, I didn't change anything about him except the age of his kids. But I don't say anything, you know, like he doesn't look bad in the book. So I can actually say that.

[00:38:17] Jasmin Singer: I love that. So I know that.

I was, I was reading some of the reviews, which are fantastic and I do wanna encourage

our listeners as well to go to Amazon and leave a review. Even if you're not buying it on Amazon, it, it's very helpful for the author if you do

[00:38:33] Dr Melanie Joy: Thank you for that. Thank you. It is.

[00:38:35] Jasmin Singer: mean, it's hugely helpful and I know that a lot of people really appreciated the dark humor and kind of the uh, you know, un unusual humor and a lot of people called it a transformative journey.

So what is the key takeaway that you hope that readers walk away with?

[00:38:54] Dr Melanie Joy: Well, first of all, I just hope people enjoy themselves reading it. I hope that people can sit down with the book and feel entertained and laugh and also learn something. I think that, you know, a good book is one that leaves the reader a little bit better off than they were before they picked it up, you know, whatever that means to them.

So I don't know if there's one key takeaway or multiple key takeaways, you know, for anybody. I just hope that people come through this journey and they've enjoyed themselves and they feel a little bit better off. Um, and I do weave, you know, psychological insights you can say throughout the book. I mean, Emma's a psychologist and she's seeing her clients throughout it.

So we've got these, you know, characters who are bringing their, their stories to her, and she's helping them unravel some of their problems, even as she's like unraveling herself.

[00:39:43] Jasmin Singer: I love the fact that this was a gift for you, Melanie, like as a writer to bring life to this book.

And now you're offering It as a gift to your readers too, that, you know, it's something we can enjoy. I just wanna talk about fiction briefly. How do you think fiction can help us develop empathy for others, including animals in, in ways that nonfiction maybe can't?

[00:40:09] Dr Melanie Joy: It is a great question. I mean, they've done studies and looked at, you know, people who are fiction readers versus people who don't read fiction that often, I guess people you know, who tend to read fiction, people who don't. And found that reading fiction does help people increase their empathy, their empathic capacity.

It invites like if, I think if you do, if you're skillful with your writing, you create a protagonist who's reliable, you know, who's relatable, who you can identify with, who you can trust, you trust, and you trust the author to take you on this journey of discovery. Because the protagonist's journey of discovery is also the reader's journey of discovery in many ways, and fiction enables us.

To maybe look at issues that we would normally not want to look at because we feel safe enough to do so. Like if you trust the author, you know you're safe with the author, they're not going to drop something on you that's gonna cause you to feel unsafe or traumatized. They're gonna kind of guide you through, bring you through the process of the book in a way that feels, you know, maybe at times challenging to your beliefs and to your experience, but never unsafe. And this gives you the opportunity to look at issues through the eyes of the protagonist. Not through your eyes, but through the eyes of the protagonist. A protagonist who you trust written by an author who you've come to trust, if that makes sense.

[00:41:31] Jasmin Singer: total sense.

I think that you're really pointing to the power of the arts in general. It's something that we've been passionate about here at Our Hen House since Our Hen House started just by interviewing artists of all kinds. And the people's defenses are down. They're like, oh, no one's, no one's, whatever, proselytizing at me or something.

They're, they're just on, they're on the journey. And then it starts to seep in. And yet to me, the elephant in the room, or I'll say the cow in the room is.

[00:41:59] Dr Melanie Joy: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:00] Jasmin Singer: what's up with vegan fiction? Like where, where are our characters? Where is there space for this in the publishing world? What are your thoughts on that?

[00:42:12] Dr Melanie Joy: Yeah. I mean, and that's something you and I have talked about, and I wouldn't call this book Vegan Fiction. And it is the novelization of my work, essentially, right? So it deals with themes that are present in my work, including one theme, which is how we relate to other animals.

Um, and when you look at the space, the fiction space, there are very few books in that space that have relatable vegan characters, for example, or themes that are, you know, engaged in any like really appreciable way with our relationship with other animals, in particular with our relationship with farmed animals.

And so I did wanna make sure to include these themes in my book, you know, and to weave the themes that, the issues that I talk about, you know, in my work into this book. And, and we need more, we need people in this space, you know, writing fiction, whether it's short stories, whether it's, you know, novels,

[00:43:06] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:07] Dr Melanie Joy: whatever, even creative blog posts.

[00:43:10] Mariann Sullivan: How do you write about vegan characters without condemning yourself to having only vegan readers? How do you work it in, in a way that's, the non-vegan reader does feel safe, but also feels a little challenged?

[00:43:22] Dr Melanie Joy: Well, I mean, I think that one way is just through having, you know, I, I would say a healthy or a skillful intention in the writing of the book, right? So I'll speak for myself. I did not write this book to be a quote unquote vegan book, and I wouldn't call it that. My goal of the book is not to change people's minds or change people's hearts.

My goal is to provide a creative experience for people to look at the world through the guise of characters that I've created and to take away from that whatever they will. And just to create characters whose dignity is clear and is honored, you know, and who aren't stereotypes or tropes. And to have conversations that, that are engaged with some of these issues without there being some sort of a hidden agenda. I think the problem is that when you've got a hidden agenda to use your creativity as a form of advocacy, which you can do, that's fine as long as you're clear about the agenda. But with this book, you know, I have a vegan character in it. Um, but it's one of many characters and one of many themes that are explored within this sort of broader meta theme of skillful ways of relating. It's not just how we relate to other animals or farmed animals, but how do we relate to ourselves?

How do we relate to each other? How do we relate as, you know, social groups. So, I don't know if I'm answering your question, but I think it's, you know, really keeping, I guess I would call it, you know, other centered writing or non narcissistic writing, like when you're writing and creating something you always have in mind, like every paragraph, every sentence.

I'm so aware that like people have such limited time and bandwidth, and if they're choosing to stop what they're doing to read something that I've written or listen to something that I have to say, I want that to provide value to them. I want it to help them to be a little better off than they were before they came to it.

And what that means is creating for their experience, not creating to influence their decisions, if that makes sense.

[00:45:20] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:45:21] Mariann Sullivan: No, it, it totally makes sense. It sounds very challenging, cause you know, we are who we are. But, it's a great goal and I, I'm really looking forward to seeing whether you pulled it off, Melanie.

[00:45:31] Jasmin Singer: But I have to say too, Melanie, that like what you are describing and, and what I'm hearing is that you're normalizing the vegan character. And,

[00:45:40] Dr Melanie Joy: Right.

[00:45:40] Jasmin Singer: had that, I'll talk about like TV And film, but we, we had that moment with like gay characters where if there was a gay character, it was about them being gay for a really long time and then

[00:45:51] Mariann Sullivan: And then they, they usually had to die at the end.

[00:45:54] Jasmin Singer: Well, lesbians

[00:45:55] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Lesbians had to die.

[00:45:57] Jasmin Singer: but sort of like at the end of the nineties, you know, I would say around that time, beginning of the aughts, I guess you call it, that it started to become like, oh, that character's just gay, but it's not about them being gay. And that is something we need with vegans and you're doing that.

Does this, does this resonate with you? Am I putting

[00:46:15] Dr Melanie Joy: A hundred percent. Yeah, you said it perfectly. Right? So it's that it's not, this is why I wouldn't say this is a vegan book, right? There are many different types of characters representing many different types of themes, and you know, each one has their own story, their own experience. Obviously they all have to fit together and, and come together in the end with their own journeys and their own stories.

But it's not using this character to kind of like carry the book. It's just, it's normalizing. It's like usually when you have a vegan character in, in a book, and I have a lot of characters in my book. I mean, not a lot. So that I, I'm actually intimidated by books that have too many characters 'cause my memory is not good enough to follow.

But I have an a, a number of characters in the book and it's just, it's not stereotyping, it's not having somebody's identity like, or somebody's, whatever, I would say ideology become their whole identity. It's a part of a whole, it's like this is a person who happens to be vegan and this is their experience.

[00:47:12] Jasmin Singer: By the way, I have a book recommendation for you. I finished it today, it's called Death Valley by Melissa Broder.

[00:47:19] Dr Melanie Joy: Okay, I am writing it down.

[00:47:20] Jasmin Singer: And it totally has like, it's dark humor and you won't get confused in it. It's not, by the way, for our listeners, it's, it really has nothing to do with veganism, but I think you'll like it from a psychological perspective.

Death Valley by Melissa Broder, are you gonna write more fiction in the future, Melanie?

[00:47:35] Dr Melanie Joy: Uh, the million dollar question. Um, so if I could just sort of snap my fingers and changed my life. I, I would love to just probably dedicate the next few years to writing novels. Um, and maybe more short stories, I don't know. But, that's not gonna happen yet. I wanna see how well A Half-hearted Death wish does.

You know, how widely circulated it gets, because I can only really justify writing if the writing reaches enough people. At the moment anyway. And I'm working on some other, projects right now I'm working on a documentary film project actually, so it's taking up some time.

My hope is to come back and to write another, at least one other novel.

[00:48:12] Jasmin Singer: gonna dangle that documentary thing right there and just like no follow up. Just is there anything you could say about it or no?

[00:48:19] Dr Melanie Joy: We're collecting footage for a sizzle reel, which is a reel that you take to, to streamers. Um, you know, and then we'll decide from there where we take things. But it's basically why we love dogs.

Uh, comes to documentary, why we, sorry, why we love dogs, eat pigs and wear cows.

[00:48:31] Mariann Sullivan: That's great.

Yeah. It would be bad if you limited it to just, why we love dogs. That's been done

[00:48:37] Dr Melanie Joy: I.

[00:48:38] Jasmin Singer: that's

[00:48:39] Mariann Sullivan: now. That's very, very exciting news.

[00:48:41] Jasmin Singer: We have to start to close up, but I just wanna acknowledge something you just said, which is, you wanna see how this does and how far it's circulated around, and I'm just so fascinated by that perspective because it's sort of like, Well, what is art and, and what is advocacy?

And where's the line between them? Like, I mean, if you greatly enjoyed writing this, is that good enough or does it need to be read widely? Like I don't think there is an answer to that.

[00:49:11] Dr Melanie Joy: There is an answer for me anyway. If I did do it again, and this didn't circulate well, I would have to do it on weekends and evenings because my salary is paid by our donors.

[00:49:20] Mariann Sullivan: yeah.

[00:49:21] Dr Melanie Joy: So if I use money, you know. Right? So, and that's really what it comes down to. And a lot of this was written in my, you know, sort of free time, um, but not all of it. And all the proceeds go to Beyond Carnism. And this is, sort of a part of what we offer. And I could take a sabbatical and write a novel, so that's possible too. So, so that's the only justification. It's a financial justification for doing it.

Uh, but yeah. But we'll, we'll see. Um.

[00:49:48] Jasmin Singer: makes sense. Alright, well, I, I mean, I'm glad that you're on at this time of year too, because people always want like a good beach read or just like summer read. This is actually perfect for that. The book is called A Half-Hearted Death Wish by Melanie Joy.

How can our readers find you online support your efforts, et cetera?

[00:50:07] Dr Melanie Joy: Thank you so much. The book is available everywhere that you can get books. And they can follow me on carnism.org or C-A-R-N-I-S-M.org or melaniejoy.org or both.

[00:50:19] Jasmin Singer: Amazing. Well, I hope that there's more fiction in the future, and I think this is gonna do really well and in

[00:50:25] Dr Melanie Joy: Yes. Thank you.

[00:50:26] Jasmin Singer: So thank you so much for joining us today on Our Hen House, and thanks to you for tuning in. Subscribe on your favorite pod catcher or on YouTube or both. And don't forget I said to leave a comment for Melanie's book on Amazon. Also, while you're commenting, you might as well leave a comment or a review for Our Hen House on Apple Podcasts or on YouTube or wherever you like to take in your media.

And that's it for us for this week. Thanks again, and thanks again to Melanie and thanks again to you and we'll see you next time.​