The Hen Report: “The Only Mentally Stable People in the World” | Family Dynamics, Anti-Vegan Psychology, and Wildlife Wins

[00:00:10] Jasmin Singer: I wonder if we should say like, welcome to The Hen Report. This is The Hen report. Like I, I'm a little confused about what Our Hen House is vis-a-vis like what our podcasts are now that we have several a week.

[00:00:24] Mariann Sullivan: All right. I, I don't know. Yeah, you're right. Welcome to The Hen Report.

[00:00:28] Jasmin Singer: Welcome to The Hen Report. This is The Hen Report.

[00:00:31] Mariann Sullivan: I don't think we have to say, this is The Hen Report. If we say, welcome to The Hen Report.

[00:00:36] Jasmin Singer: That's true. This is Us.

[00:00:38] Mariann Sullivan: Are we recording this? 'cause it's idiotic.

[00:00:41] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, we're totally recording this.

[00:00:42] Mariann Sullivan: All right, let's move on.

[00:00:44] Jasmin Singer: Okay, so Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays, and the the long form interview on most Fridays and the Animal Law Podcast on the last Friday of the month, which means this Friday.

You'll talk about that in a little while. And we're on YouTube, so please subscribe and like wherever you listen. Thank you. And thank you to the podcast listener who wrote to me because I briefly mentioned last week that I was going to be taking a very quick trip to Vermont, and it was a very quick trip, to see my family.

My mom lives there and I surprised my niece and brother. It was my niece's 15th birthday and I, one of our podcast listeners wrote to me with suggestions on where to eat, which was so sweet.

[00:01:25] Mariann Sullivan: That's really nice.

[00:01:27] Jasmin Singer: I know, like, would you do that if you listened to a podcast

[00:01:31] Mariann Sullivan: Oh, I am not that nice. I mean, I think we've well established I'm not really that nice.

[00:01:36] Jasmin Singer: Well, it was very sweet and so the, I mean, the drive is super long. Even if you just go straight there, It's like, I don't know. It

[00:01:44] Mariann Sullivan: It's even longer if you stop at every vegan restaurant and every thrift store on the way.

[00:01:51] Jasmin Singer: and every garage sale. Don't forget

[00:01:54] Mariann Sullivan: Oh, God. Garage sales too. Like what do you do with all of this junk that you buy?

[00:01:59] Jasmin Singer: First of all, I never go to garage sales. This was just fun 'cause we were passing them. Second of all, we get rid of things for the things that we buy?

[00:02:07] Mariann Sullivan: All right.

[00:02:08] Jasmin Singer: Third of all, you know, I do have like a little bit of a side hustle type thing where I sell some stuff, at a local kind of.

[00:02:18] Mariann Sullivan: All right.

[00:02:19] Jasmin Singer: know,

[00:02:19] Mariann Sullivan: very complicated. Very complicated.

[00:02:22] Jasmin Singer: but it, you know, and Moore

[00:02:24] Mariann Sullivan: long as the stuff goes out though and doesn't just come in, it's fine.

[00:02:28] Jasmin Singer: Mostly it mostly

[00:02:30] Mariann Sullivan: Well, yeah, I mean occasionally I guess you find something you actually like, you.

[00:02:34] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. So, it's nice to have like a little vacation feeling, even if, if it's just like a, it was a three day trip. The, the bookend days were entirely driving, which was, you know, I will say the infrastructure for the EVs, the chargers, it felt pretty good

[00:02:52] Mariann Sullivan: Oh, that's exciting. 'cause I'm always nervous.

[00:02:56] Jasmin Singer: because

[00:02:56] Mariann Sullivan: I'm getting more nervous because, you know, like Trump wants to like take all of our EVs away.

[00:03:03] Jasmin Singer: My mom doesn't have an EV and she wants to get a new car. And I was like, get an electric car. And, and someone else who was there was like, you could get a plugin hybrid. And my mom was like, what's everything? What is that? You know? And so I'm sort of explaining to her, what's this and what's that and the other, and I guess it sort of reminds me of like when people go vegan or then someone in the room is like, or you could go like vegan until six or, you know, I, I don't know. Maybe it's not, maybe

[00:03:31] Mariann Sullivan: I think that, I think that's a good, good analogy. Yeah.

[00:03:34] Jasmin Singer: The person who said that was sort of like, why would you do that to yourself

[00:03:37] Mariann Sullivan: Well, they do have a point. I mean, your mother doesn't, I don't think she drives long distances. So it's not that big an issue if you don't drive long distances. But she lives in a cold place too, and they do not hold a great charge when it's cold out. I've certainly experienced that. And you know, I mean, I think one of the biggest problems, and I experience this more than you do, 'cause you're usually with your wife, I'm usually alone.

Some of the places where you have to charge, they're like deserted and there you are, like with this really nice car. I have a really nice car and, uh. Or I think it's a really nice car and all, all alone in the middle of nowhere with the wind howling in the winter because your car loses its charge.

Uh, there are reasons, I mean, we need better infrastructure. There are certainly reasons to do it. It is the right thing to do, I think, or as close to the right thing to do. Well, it's not as good as taking public transportation, but alright, I digress. It's the right thing to do, but it's not nothing, uh, you know, I, I think there are issues and the way the government is right now, I'm not sure they're gonna be resolved.

[00:04:40] Jasmin Singer: So yes, agreed with all of that, but I think that like, one point I just made that I wanna go back to is when, when someone. When their thought is, why would you do that to yourself? Like, why would you inconvenience yourself in that way? They're making it about the person as

[00:04:57] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah,

[00:04:57] Jasmin Singer: bigger reason.

And it reminds me of when people say like, why would you go

[00:05:01] Mariann Sullivan: yeah. Like it never occurs to them that you might be doing it 'cause you think it's the right thing to do. Yeah.

[00:05:07] Jasmin Singer: Exactly.

[00:05:08] Mariann Sullivan: People are assholes, you know?

[00:05:10] Jasmin Singer: think that like in the case of my mom, if she got a plugged a plugin hybrid, because she mostly drives locally, she'd probably almost always be just on

[00:05:19] Mariann Sullivan: I she, it would be totally fine. Yeah, it would be totally fine.

[00:05:24] Jasmin Singer: anyway, uh, so yeah, it was, there was a dynamic, like families when they get together, like bio families, there's a dynamic

[00:05:32] Mariann Sullivan: That's a nice, that's such a nice way of putting it.

[00:05:36] Jasmin Singer: like at one point we're like all at this Chinese restaurant, which by the way, I will say my whole family did order the, the vegan mock meat

[00:05:45] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, that's kind of amazing.

[00:05:47] Jasmin Singer: It is, it, it, it was a bit shocking. And my and my brother said to the waiter, like, if a meat eater came in here wanted an analog that tasted as close to the real thing as possible, what would they get?

And the waiter was like, you know, get the general SO'S mock chicken.

[00:06:04] Mariann Sullivan: ch, of course. Yeah. So the chicken is always the best.

[00:06:07] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Yeah. I think it was May Wah, uh,

[00:06:09] Mariann Sullivan: Oh yeah. Really the best.

[00:06:12] Jasmin Singer: But

[00:06:13] Mariann Sullivan: I have some May Wah drumsticks in my freezer. I'm so excited.

[00:06:16] Jasmin Singer: From the vegan grocery

[00:06:17] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

[00:06:18] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

May Wah is great. Anyway, so there was a dynamic, like my brother speaks very loudly, like very loudly. I don't think he realizes it. So then, you know, there's always that part of it. And then like, my mom's boyfriend is very sensitive to loud noises, and so he's like, can you take it down? And then, then he,

[00:06:38] Mariann Sullivan: Oh, that's hilarious.

[00:06:40] Jasmin Singer: and then my mom, my mom's

[00:06:42] Mariann Sullivan: My, my family, I have to say, my family is so easy.

[00:06:47] Jasmin Singer: There's like four people in the restaurant.

One of them happens to be my mom's ex-boyfriend,

[00:06:52] Mariann Sullivan: Oh my God.

[00:06:55] Jasmin Singer: so,

[00:06:56] Mariann Sullivan: That's hilarious.

[00:06:58] Jasmin Singer: yeah. Who my mom doesn't talk to anymore, but like, I know him. He's your dog's.

[00:07:04] Mariann Sullivan: I hate him by the way.

[00:07:06] Jasmin Singer: know you do. '

[00:07:07] Mariann Sullivan: cause he's the one who abandoned Lulu and I ended up with her.

[00:07:11] Jasmin Singer: Well, his mother, his mother had, and he didn't take Lulu, but Yes. Um, but anyway, it was all like, and so I look over at Moore and she's basically like in the mo, you know, like in the movie theater with her popcorn and like, she was just like so entertained by the whole thing and

[00:07:26] Mariann Sullivan: is totally the right attitude with the in-laws.

[00:07:31] Jasmin Singer: and I'm such like an Al-Anon, uh, you know, personality that I'm sitting there like, so embarrassed and mortified that my brother is speaking so loudly, but the, and that my

[00:07:41] Mariann Sullivan: I don't think that makes you alanon. I mean, it's your family. Like we grow up like having angst around our families.

[00:07:48] Jasmin Singer: the tension between that and like. My mom's partner who's like, can you take it down?

And then at one point he gets up to like go outside and says, it's 'cause his back hurts. But I know it's 'cause he's like with the dynamic and

[00:08:03] Mariann Sullivan: All right. Enough. Enough. Move on. Move on.

[00:08:05] Jasmin Singer: So, um, I did have a lovely time with my niece. She is so cool. So when we were driving through the north country of New York, which is like the top of the Adirondacks,

uh, which I had to Google by the way.

I wasn't like entirely sure what was the north country and. We, we were in Clinton County, New York, and I saw a little sign that was like, end dog tethering, and it was like this tiny little sign that someone like attached to like a, a

[00:08:34] Mariann Sullivan: That's great. Yeah.

[00:08:36] Jasmin Singer: like, whoa. And I quickly write it down because I'm like, I just wanna look into like, what's going on here, what this campaign is. And I found that there's actually been a lot of, press about this, this recent, very recently, like within the last couple weeks. Now I just wanna pause and say, obviously I know about dog tethering. It is not on my radar, like how much people fight it, how around it still is like that.

I guess I'm more focused on farmed animal issues or something, so I just don't, this was like an education. I know it's fucking horrible to like, you know, have it and

[00:09:14] Mariann Sullivan: dogs are tied out like they're all the time.

[00:09:17] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I, I

[00:09:19] Mariann Sullivan: insane. It's insane.

[00:09:20] Jasmin Singer: insane. It's insane.

[00:09:21] Mariann Sullivan: insane.

[00:09:22] Jasmin Singer: there has been this like grassroots push in Clinton County to ban long-term dog tethering and it has been shut down.

And just to be clear, not the law itself, but the chance to discuss the law has been shut down for the second time in less

[00:09:37] Mariann Sullivan: Unbelievable.

[00:09:38] Jasmin Singer: county legislature refused to allow a hearing despite what is overwhelming community support, and of course, it's overwhelming community support. It's like that tote bag that you love.

Like who would eat a lamb or who?

[00:09:50] Mariann Sullivan: I think it says, who the fuck would lead a

[00:09:52] Jasmin Singer: would eat

[00:09:53] Mariann Sullivan: Eat a Lamb?

[00:09:53] Jasmin Singer: fuck would be okay with tethering dogs? And this isn't just about chained dogs, even though that by itself should, should be more than enough reason. But they're like silencing the citizens who,

[00:10:05] Mariann Sullivan: I can see why, because what would, you know, like once you have to actually articulate this issue and bring attention to it with a hearing, like what are the arguments in favor of allowing people to tie their dogs out? I mean, there aren't any arguments other than I, I mean, it's probably like hunters or something, and there probably are a lot of hunters and or breeders or whatever, like, but it's not, there's not gonna have one good argument that's going to like.

People are not gonna go to this hearing and hear both sides and then say, oh, now I understand why they won't. And it's not banning dog tethering. I mean, you described it to me and it had a lot, whole list of qualifications of, you know, how long and how, how much you could

[00:10:47] Jasmin Singer: It's like welfare reform on crack. I mean, it's like prohibit tethering during extreme weather

[00:10:54] Mariann Sullivan: yeah.

[00:10:55] Jasmin Singer: set minimum

[00:10:57] Mariann Sullivan: set timestamp. Yeah. So.

[00:10:59] Jasmin Singer: like the

[00:11:00] Mariann Sullivan: Like how, what kind of, I wouldn't allow a hearing on that if I didn't wanna vote for it because like, you're gonna sound like a monster, which is what you are.

[00:11:09] Jasmin Singer: That's what you are.

Yeah. I mean, it, it's, uh, it,

[00:11:13] Mariann Sullivan: Fascinating. You ran into this big controversial issue just driving across, uh,

[00:11:19] Jasmin Singer: I

[00:11:19] Mariann Sullivan: York, New York State.

[00:11:21] Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

[00:11:22] Mariann Sullivan: these people. Like all these people out there, like doing all of this work, fighting for animals like we're, we are everywhere.

[00:11:30] Jasmin Singer: We are

[00:11:31] Mariann Sullivan: And, and this apparently is quite the fight. I read that article you sent about it. We can put that in the show notes.

[00:11:38] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. We'll

[00:11:38] Mariann Sullivan: It's, it's quite the fight. Like they've been fighting this for a long time. I mean, this is like, takes over your life doing this. And there they are. Good for them.

[00:11:47] Jasmin Singer: Totally. So I don't know how to transition into this, but I am, I'm sort of fascinated by this subject that you wanna bring

[00:11:56] Mariann Sullivan: Oh, uh, this is just, you know, you went all the way to, to Vermont. I watched tv, so we both had productive weeks.

[00:12:03] Jasmin Singer: until your power went out and then

[00:12:05] Mariann Sullivan: Right? By power went well, it's because of the fucking heat. Like, you know, here it is June and I am sick of summer. It was what, 95, 98 degrees yesterday. It was insanely hot.

[00:12:17] Jasmin Singer: so

[00:12:18] Mariann Sullivan: And of course that's when, that's when the power.

But anyway, that has nothing to do with anything. I watch TV and I, I watch a lot of YouTube.

[00:12:26] Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:27] Mariann Sullivan: And, um, one of the things I watch, and I forget to watch it, but I, I actually support this organization and I love what they do. And if you really wanna, like, you know, just watch good people doing good things, this is a great thing to watch.

It's called Mossy Earth. They do rewilding but their rewilding isn't just a matter of like, you know, letting the land go and letting animal, they, they rebuild like degraded ecosystems. And then, you know. They try different things and it's all around the world, and some of them are underwater.

The one I was watching about was underwater, and I'm not talking about that, but I do recommend watching them. But in this, in this video where they had actually rebuilt a coral reef or rebuilt the infrastructure on which the coral then was kind of willing to grow. So it was kind of a half fake, but half becoming a real coral reef.

And they were very excited about all the animals who had moved in. And there was one point where in this very frightening sequence, a Moray eel, um, appeared and they were like astounded and, and, uh, this moay, I don't know what moray eels are, but apparently they're very dangerous. And so they, they, they didn't know it was there and it came out and they were like, oh my God.

Oh my God. And then they saw the fish get eaten by the moray eel and the the host who I just love and is just a lovely man and he cares about the world and he cares about the animals and their habitat. He was just excited that he had seen or that was what he was conveying. And I think it was honest. He was excited to have seen this moment in nature where this eel ate the fish and I am not opposed, you know, like nature is nature and eels eat fish.

I know that, but. But like my reaction is at least a moment of saying, oh my God, poor fish. And there just wasn't any of that like, like it never entered his mind to think, oh, that must have been unpleasant for that fish who died this violent death. And like I say, I'm not trying to fix nature. I'm not saying we can, but it's just that, you know, I think that.

is it that, that people don't let themselves have those feelings or that just hardly anybody has them? I mean, if it had been a dog who had gotten eaten, I am sure he would've thought, oh my God. Uh, he would've been devastated. I. I, I really think is it that peop is it just 'cause it's a fish? That probably enters into it.

I feel like I doubt he's one of those bozos who thinks that fish don't feel anything. I don't know why I'm talking about it exactly, but it really struck me, it really struck me to feel, because it's kind of that difference between the environmentalists and the animal rights people, like in a nutshell.

[00:15:09] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, totally. I think it's fascinating to find these kind of cognitive dissonance examples that, for whatever reason, really strike us

[00:15:19] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

[00:15:20] Jasmin Singer: this,

[00:15:21] Mariann Sullivan: Like what is it about us that's, that's different and is there a way to like, you know, we, I think we're the animal rights movement is more and more finding ways to work with others who don't actually share this, uh, which I think is great because you have to work with others. But I think it's notable when it occurs to you that, all right, there's something different going on here in the way we see the world and the miracle of life and, and the miracle of, of conscious animals and the miracle and the horror of all this consciousness everywhere.

[00:15:55] Jasmin Singer: Right. So I mentioned that, you know, I was hanging out with my brother. My brother, I don't think has ever sent me an article about veganism that came onto his radar. He gets,

[00:16:06] Mariann Sullivan: Well, why would an article on veganism come onto his radar?

[00:16:09] Jasmin Singer: but he gets like these, uh, you know, digests and sometimes,

[00:16:14] Mariann Sullivan: Oh, okay.

[00:16:16] Jasmin Singer: sometimes an article for whatever reason, breaks through the noise.

And so he sent me an article from Veg Out and he was like, before I knew what the article was he was like, is that like a legitimate, you know, website? And I was like, yeah, yeah. Veg Out is super.

[00:16:31] Mariann Sullivan: Oh my God. My brother's sending me an article from Veg Out. This is so exciting. He's almost there.

[00:16:36] Jasmin Singer: yeah. But then the article is called Why Vegans Have Higher Rates of Depression, and As a Longtime Vegan, I've got some thoughts

[00:16:45] Mariann Sullivan: Well, I mean the full title, isn't it? I studied why vegans have higher rates of depression and discovered a hidden psychological pattern that's destroying careers and relationships for everyone. I think this guy is a psychologist or I.

[00:17:00] Jasmin Singer: I.

[00:17:00] Mariann Sullivan: Whether he is officially a psychologist. But yeah, so I looked at this article, yes, it's by this guy named Justin Brown.

It's a very recent article and in the first place, you know, there was that research, and I think we talked about it at the time that came out, that showed that vegans have higher rates of depression and anxiety, and I think we debunked it. At the time it was stupid. We didn't believe it was true, but He believed it was true, and maybe it is true. I don't know. I mean, I think that you could certainly make a case for it. I just, you like, the research didn't hold up as far as, I was concerned, and he, he actually came to the conclusion that it wasn't about veganism. That wasn't the reason. So that's interesting.

But then. basically what he found out made it possible to not worry so much about being vegan because what it's about is that there's a psychological cost of living by strict ethical codes. He's not against ethics, but if people, if their identity becomes too involved in their ethical code, it isn't good for people.

And so basically, therefore they should, you know, they should e ease up. Other examples he gives are Christians questioning their faith, but terrified to lose their community. I think that really happens. Um, democrats who disagreed with party positions but couldn't voice descent, like really, like, is that a major source of, depression?

Um. Or like attachment parenting, like people get so, so wedded to the theory of attachment parenting that they can't notice when it's not working. And this is what happens, he says, when any beautiful choice becomes a psychological prison. And, and you know, of course both of the examples he gives are people who were getting sick because of their strict adherence to veganism and she was experiencing digestive issues and brain fog, and she just couldn't bring herself because she was such a strict... like, fuck this shit.

This is so stupid. I mean, I thought the comments, the comments also were excellent. I don't have them in front of me right now. Like of course. I mean, none of this is true. Vegans aren't fanatics who are like trying. Veganism is a tool to help animals. It is not a religion that you can't, you don't deviate from it because there's no reason to deviate from it.

And, and eating animals causes harm. It's like giving up something that causes harm, and also it's not proven that vegans are more depressed. And also, if we are more depressed, obviously we should be more depressed because we've faced the truth about what is happening to these billions of creatures who are suffering horri.

This kind of coordinates with my last story, doesn't it? We're the ones who see, alright, it's not fun to get eaten by the Moray Eel. Alright, it's not fun to be living in a factory farm and having your throat slit. Like, like why wouldn't we be depressed?

[00:19:53] Jasmin Singer: He is basically pathologizing the choice to live ethically and, and saying the problem is that we're too identified with our values. Really? Like he's pathologizing people who have a moral baseline

[00:20:08] Mariann Sullivan: he is basically saying? He's saying like, if you want, like just eat some meat. That's what he is saying.

[00:20:13] Jasmin Singer: The solution is not to water down your ethics so that. You know, so that the ethics, the ethical choices don't hurt so much. And, and this idea, I.

don't, this idea that vegans are more depressed. Like should be talking about mental health in the vegan world. We, we should be making space for complexity and for struggle and,

[00:20:35] Mariann Sullivan: but

[00:20:35] Jasmin Singer: for

[00:20:36] Mariann Sullivan: he, he's claiming there's a mental health crisis among vegans, really, like I think we're the only mentally stable people in the world. I do.

[00:20:44] Jasmin Singer: It's a, your identity is rooted in justice and in refusing to participate in violence against others, it is not about ego, it is about solidarity, and that that is not a psychological trap. That's integrity and like, I'm very offended by

[00:21:03] Mariann Sullivan: No, I'm seriously offended by this because it, it's pretending to be so friendly. Like, if you wanna eat meat, just don't write for, for, or vegan magazines and tell us why it's okay.

[00:21:15] Jasmin Singer: was a little shocked that Veg out

[00:21:17] Mariann Sullivan: I know. I mean, I, I don't know who he is. Like maybe he,

[00:21:21] Jasmin Singer: I don't know either, but in any

[00:21:24] Mariann Sullivan: I don't know what he eats. He's a writer, entrepreneur, Singapore intersection, conscious living, personal growth amount and culture, blah, blah, blah. Fast changing world.

[00:21:33] Jasmin Singer: is, my guess is he wrote the article

[00:21:35] Mariann Sullivan: When he is not writing, he's off grid in his Land Rover. Oh, great. Destroying ecosystems left and right.

[00:21:42] Jasmin Singer: I've been on the other side of pitches like this before. I would very strongly suspect that he had no idea what Veg Out was. He just wrote the

[00:21:51] Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

[00:21:52] Jasmin Singer: tried to,

[00:21:53] Mariann Sullivan: All right, let's move on. 'cause I hate him. I don't wanna talk about him anymore.

[00:21:56] Jasmin Singer: There's a Faunalytics report that,

[00:21:58] Mariann Sullivan: I'm just gonna,

[00:21:59] Jasmin Singer: into

[00:22:00] Mariann Sullivan: yeah,

[00:22:00] Jasmin Singer: works and what doesn't when running vegan challenges

[00:22:03] Mariann Sullivan: I really like, I really liked this, this is talking about vegan challenges. I think everybody should like, well everybody who wants to do like maybe a new form of activism or if you're already do participating in vegan challenges. 'cause there's a lot of great information here. It's talking about things like Veganuary, you know, vegan challenges.

Where there for in some way, uh, there can be a lot of different ways people are, challenge to eat vegan for, let's say for 30 days or for a week, or for, I don't know, a meal. The data is that there's a retention rate to veganism, of between 10 and 28%. And, but by the way, I don't think I mentioned this in Faunalytics, and it's by Bjorn Johan, um, 10 to 28% retention.

They stay vegan or vegetarian. I think that's pretty, that's pretty high, because as this points out, and he thought it was pretty high too, as this points out, that's, you know, it's a, it's a range, but it also, doesn't really take into account how many people Like, eat less meat and you know, get on that route.

It can, like, people don't always change immediately, but how many people, it starts on the route to going vegan or just on the route to eating less meat. And I bet it's a lot more than that. And, some of the ways in which he says that, the challenge affects people is their self-conception.

This is like, you know, like your brother's thing basically telling the Chinese waiter that he's a meat eater. He, you know, he, he doesn't really eat this stuff, regularly. That's like his self-conception, he's conveying it like, if, if you're actually eating vegan for a while and making that decision, you start thinking of yourself as somebody who is or could be vegan.

The foot in the door, obviously, you know, trying it. trying anything is always the first step to doing it. Attitude change, social norms and meat disgust. Like, I like that. Like some people probably really do start thinking, oh, this is really gross. and so one, I, I think this is really reassuring, even meatless Mondays, I mean, Bjorn thinks, um, will make people eat less animals after the challenge period. Which, you know, I've always disparaged Meatless Mondays as too little, too late. But, I really am in favor of having Meat Mondays, well, not in favor, but a better compromise would be Meat Mondays, where you go vegan for the other six days and then the only time you eat meat is on Monday. but nobody's doing that. The thing I liked best about it is, is this thing he wrote on Blue Sky. This may even suggest that smaller community oriented vegan challenges have a huge role to play in shifting consumption habits because. One of the points that has made is this has to be a community. That one of the important things of doing it is to create this sense of community, not just asking an individual to do it totally on their own, but like the supporting thing.

But he thinks that small community oriented challenges might be even more effective than the nationwide pledges, like Veganuary, like in a school or a place of worship on a campus. Like, this is the kind of community-based activism that everybody can get involved in. You know, it's, it's not that big to mount this kind of a campaign.

I love it. I, I was very inspired by it.

[00:25:15] Jasmin Singer: I'm not sure I would've necessarily thought that that would've been your reaction to it.

[00:25:22] Mariann Sullivan: What did you think? I would say, damn this, this is stupid.

Why don't they all just go vegan?

[00:25:27] Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Something, something likethat maybe, but I, you know, I appreciate that they didn't oversell the results. And I also appreciate that small shifts matter. I think that can make

[00:25:41] Mariann Sullivan: Well, it's not really a small shift. I mean, alright, Meatless Monday is a small shift, but going vegan for like a month, like Veganuary does, I don't, I think that's a pretty big ask and still a lot of people do it. And then a lot of people stick. I mean, I, maybe my expectations were lower than yours, so you thought that everybody stayed vegan and I was impressed that 10 to 28% actually stay vegan or vegetarian who weren't before.

I think that, I mean, I just assumed that for most people, they do this for a month, then they go back and hopefully it, you know, it's a first step. But apparently for a lot of people it's, it's the final step as well. I liked it. I

[00:26:23] Jasmin Singer: Well, there has been a big step, a rare win for wildlife. Do you wanna talk about this,

[00:26:29] Mariann Sullivan: oki

[00:26:30] Jasmin Singer: proposed

[00:26:30] Mariann Sullivan: what? Why do I know the name? Okefenokee so well. Was it. Uh, known one in popular culture for some, but anyway, Okefenokee Swamp, which is in Georgia, is apparently an unbelievably valuable ecosystem. Loads and loads of animals who don't exist elsewhere, who are endangered. Uh,

[00:26:50] Jasmin Singer: Sandhill cranes, gopher tortoises, alligators, black bears, so many others as well, just to paint a picture here.

[00:26:59] Mariann Sullivan: I mean, I, I've just read about it before that this mine, that people wanted to put this mine in there, that, you know, they said, oh, it'll be fine. It won't cause any problems. And everybody else was saying, no, this is gonna be a disaster. And according to this article in the Atlanta Journal Constitution, historical land deal halts mine planned next to Georgia's Okefenokee Swamp.

And I just think, you know, I just thought I'd throw this story in there because it's a victory. It's a victory for every single animal who lives in at the Okefenokee Swamp and um, it's apparently this fund, you know, this is a huge campaign. There have been lawsuits, like loads of people have been involved.

This has been years and years of fighting this mine and the conservation fund, which is buying the land, the mining interests that own it are going to sell it, I guess. 'cause they know that the opposition is just too great and it just shows that, that sometimes you can win if you fight hard enough.

I just thought I'd throw that in there. Little good news.

[00:28:03] Jasmin Singer: I like the, powerful message that I think this sends, which is wild animals shouldn't have to negotiate for their right to exist. And as we know, neither do farmed animals. So, it's a good story. And is the Animal Law podcast that's coming out

[00:28:20] Mariann Sullivan: Oh, right, right, right. I wa

[00:28:22] Jasmin Singer: a good story?

[00:28:23] Mariann Sullivan: I wanted to talk about that. Great interview. It's a little different, than, than the usual interview. It's with, Raffael Fasel and John Adenitire. Both of whom have been on either the Animal Law Podcast or the Our Hen House podcast before. And they have written a new book, Animals and the Constitution Towards Sentience-Based Constitutionalism.

And like I said, this is a bit of a departure since usually on the, podcast we talk about a particular case. It's going on in the here and now. And this is a very broad overview of the relationship between animals and the law and, about, about. Let's take this out of moral theory and start talking about how we might get it into legal theory and there could not be a better time, I think, to talk about what constitutions are, what they do, what they mean, what they're supposed to do, what they sometimes fail to do, and how they really memorialize the society we wanna live in.

And how when it comes to animals, they don't do that at all. It's an interesting time to talk about making progressive change since we're afraid of losing our constitutional rights in so many ways. But I, in some ways, I think there's no better time to rethink what should be happening here. And this is a fascinating conversation.

Both of these guys know a lot, not just about the US Constitution, we're talking more generally, and they have examples from constitutions around the world, some of which are doing a better job vis-a-vis animals Than the American Constitution, but not a whole lot better. And uh, so I hope people listen to this.

Like I said, it's not the usual, but I think you'll really enjoy it.

[00:29:58] Jasmin Singer: Yeah, that's cool. I can't wait. I'm looking forward to that. Alright, I, we're just about out of time here. I wanna just encourage our listeners and viewers to leave a comment on YouTube or a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps us with discoverability, it's just like a tiny little thing that actually makes a big difference. And, make sure you like this episode on YouTube. Follow us and share us on all the socials. You can find us @ourhenhouse, and don't forget to tune into the Animal Law Podcast tomorrow. And that's it. We'll see you next time. Thanks so much.​