Defending Animal Protection Laws: Legislative Strategies Against Big Ag Pushback

Jasmin Singer: We're both wearing orange today, which is kind of weird. I don't feel like we ever wear orange actually, ever.

Mariann Sullivan: I have very few orange things.

Jasmin Singer: I'm, I, I just quickly put this on 'cause I got cherries on the white, the white shirt. Well, thank you. I am wearing a white shirt and I ate cherries, so that was dumb. But, uh, the rest of this interview will be the opposite of dumb because we have a really exciting interview today. Um, before we get to that and introduce our guests, just a reminder that Our Hen House has now been split up into multiple podcasts throughout the week.

So Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays, and the long form interview, that's this, on most Fridays and the Animal Law Podcast on the last Friday of the month. If you quiz me about that, I will fail. So don't, uh, and bonus content for Flock members comes out on Monday. So we are,

Mariann Sullivan: They're all on the same feed.

Jasmin Singer: Yes,

Mariann Sullivan: If that's too confusing, just subscribe to the feed and you'll get them.

Jasmin Singer: That's how I learn.

Mariann Sullivan: You don't have to listen to them on those

Jasmin Singer: I actually walk into my wife's office and see her watching and I'm like, oh, I guess that's the day this came out. That's how I know.

Mariann Sullivan: are you

Jasmin Singer: so

Mariann Sullivan: on the podcast than you actually are

Jasmin Singer: a hundred percent. You know, I also have, if, if you are, uh, confused you can sign up for the feed or you could just walk into Moore's office and see what she's watching that day. Okay? Anyway, we're a podcast and we're on YouTube. Please subscribe and like wherever you listen, even though this is what we've been talking about thus far, I promise it'll get better. And, uh, don't forget, we're gonna have a booth at TAFA in New Orleans this weekend, August 1st to the third. So stop by and say hi to Vicki.

There's a really cute like thing, circle thing you can hold up over your face and it has like a fake microphone pointing to you. And it says, change the world for animals, Our Hen House. And you could take a photo with it. Uh, and if you tag us in that, then I'll give you a high five. I just made that up. We should have had something better than a high five. Alright,

Mariann Sullivan: really not a great

Jasmin Singer: Mariann, why don't you take it from here and help me out.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. All right. So we're this, I love these episodes. I've loved every single one of them. We have done them in coordination with the Animal Policy Alliance, which is a program of the Humane League. And they're all, we've heard about all sorts of things going on in different states on the legislative level, and, um, I'm gonna introduce our guests because today, today's is really, really important. 'Cause it's not just about getting something done at the legislature, it's about preventing them from getting something done at the legislature. And what could be more important than that? Because they, and you know who I'm talking about, generally are trying to do bad things. All right. Bob Baker is one of our guests. He serves as Executive Director of the Missouri Alliance for Animal Legislation. He's bringing nearly 50 years of animal welfare expertise to the role. As a former national investigator for the ASPCA Humane Farming Association and Chief Investigator for the Humane Society of the United States. Bob has conducted animal cruelty investigations and advocacy work across 42 states. His extensive legislative experience has yielded significant victories for both companion and agricultural animals, most notably spearheading the 2011 Canine Cruelty Prevention Act that successfully shut down over 1200 puppy mills in Missouri. Welcome to Our Hen House, Bob.

Bob Baker: Oh, thank you very much. I'm glad to be here and, and join all, all you other fellow animal lovers.

Jasmin Singer: I have a quick question for Bob before we introduce the other two guests. Have you ever been to the City Museum in St. Louis?

Bob Baker: Yes, yes. It's been a while, but yes, absolutely.

Jasmin Singer: pretty epic, right? It's my favorite museum in the world. It's

Bob Baker: Oh yeah. I like to take my nephews and nieces there.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I like to take my me there. It's really fun. Alright.

Joshua Levin.

Mariann Sullivan: I've never been to St.

Jasmin Singer: It has like slides and like ladders. Yeah. The fact that it's legal is bananas to me. Joshua Levin is the Legislative and Advocacy Manager for Connecticut Votes for Animals. And his role involves policy research and strategic planning and coalition building, lobbying with state and local officials, and facilitating education outreach initiatives that aim to increase the understanding of and participation in the state legislative process.

Joshua, welcome to Our Hen House.

Joshua Levin: Thank you so much. I am very excited to be here and to dig into what we gotta talk about.

Jasmin Singer: All right. I feel like I need a question for you too. So, have you been to Blood Root in Connecticut?

I

Joshua Levin: not,

Jasmin Singer: Do you know what it is?

Joshua Levin: I do not. Tell me about it.

Mariann Sullivan: my God,

Jasmin Singer: Hannah, do you know what it is? I'm just, I'm just curious. Okay. It's, um, it, it's the oldest, uh, vegetarian restaurant in the country and it's, uh, a lesbian owned, like feminist, uh, amazing experience. It, I think it might be vegan now. It, it, it started off vegetarian and it's vegan now. And you go in and they have the, there's like kind of older women who work there and you go and they have like an old receipt pad and, uh, you give them your name and then they say you can seat yourself.

And when you're done, bring your dishes back. We don't serve you.

Joshua Levin: I

Jasmin Singer: And there's cats, there's,

Mariann Sullivan: old school. It's so great.

Jasmin Singer: We're not here to serve you.

Mariann Sullivan: it's right on the water, but it's in Bridgeport. So the water is a little bit industrialized.

Jasmin Singer: And it's, uh,

Mariann Sullivan: it's

Jasmin Singer: there's a, yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: you know, a kind of a worn out little city.

Jasmin Singer: And there's a cat cafe Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: great

Jasmin Singer: good. Yeah. So, uh,

Mariann Sullivan: you,

Jasmin Singer: so

Mariann Sullivan: there's a window and you go up there to get your food because, because they don't serve you.

Jasmin Singer: You have to go, Joshua. In fact, I demand that you go.

Mariann Sullivan: You all have to go.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Okay. Exactly.

Joshua Levin: Had me at vegan, so I'll, I'll be sure to check it out.

Jasmin Singer: It's just, it's iconic, honestly. It's like walking into history.

Joshua Levin: Mm-hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: is. And it's very cute. It's like got all this old pictures on the wall and whatever. It's adorable. I, we have to go. I'm now I wanna go there.

Alright,

Jasmin Singer: Let's do it.

Mariann Sullivan: Hannah Truxell, who has been on the podcast before for another Animal Policy Alliance interview, and so really knows the ropes. She is the Senior Policy Council with The Humane League, and there she leads a team of researchers who focus on providing support to the Animal Policy Alliance. And she and her team focus on state, federal, and local policy research, drafting model legislation and legislative and campaign strategy.

So welcome back, Hannah.

Hannah Truxell: Thanks so much for having me. Glad to be

Jasmin Singer: H Hannah, where are you? Where do you live?

Hannah Truxell: I'm based in Louisville, Kentucky,

Jasmin Singer: Okay. I have nothing. have no questions.

Mariann Sullivan: that you're, you're, that you're there because you, you pronounce it

Jasmin Singer: Louisville?

Mariann Sullivan: rest

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: are, can't do. Like, I, I can try to pronounce it, but I, I, I, lo ville

Jasmin Singer: Share. Share an interesting, share an interesting fact about Louisville for us

Hannah Truxell: Oh, you're about to stump me. Um,

Jasmin Singer: Your favorite. Your favorite thing to do after a long day of work when you're going out.

Hannah Truxell: my favorite, oh,

Let's talk about a vegan restaurant. How

Jasmin Singer: okay. Let's do it. What?

Mariann Sullivan: favorite thing to do.

Hannah Truxell: My favorite is, um, half Peach Vegan Cafe and Bakery here in Louisville, and they make the most delicious, um, biscoff cookie cheesecake. So like the airplane cookies that you

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Hannah Truxell: make it into a cheesecake and it is amazing.

Jasmin Singer: Wow.

Hannah Truxell: it's it's the food of absolute dreams.

Jasmin Singer: I have not been there now I wanna go there, but I love when I'm on a plane, which is, no, I, I hate when I'm on a plane, but I love when I'm on the plane and they give me the biscotti. I get so excited. Uh, they're really good. Alright, so now that we've, you know, covered the important issues such as

Bob Baker: Hmm,

Jasmin Singer: Museum, blood root,

Mariann Sullivan: about here.

Jasmin Singer: yeah.

Uh, so Bob, let's start with you. Before we get into talking about specific bills, can you tell us about the Missouri, or Missouri, if you're my stepfather, uh, Alliance for Animal Legislation and how it came to be?

Bob Baker: Sure. And, and I, I call it Missouri too 'cause I grew up here, but, um. Yeah, it, it started in, uh, 1990 and it was really in reaction to the fact that Missouri has very few laws protecting animals and uh, the thing that was driving it the most was the upsurge in puppy mills, these large commercial dog breeding, uh, facilities.

So, um, that's what really galvanized everybody to come together and form an alliance and start doing legislative work at the state legislature or, you know, a lot of the national groups at that time, things have changed, but at the time the national groups had just focused mostly on federal legislation and, uh, so there was really a need for us and we made some great progress over the years.

I mean, it would take me a half hour to tell you all the things that we got passed. It really changed the entire, uh, environment for animals in the state. And uh, you know, and even on farm animals. Believe it or not, when we were found that you could not prosecute anybody for mistreating birds or chickens or ducks or anything like that, that was just prohibited.

Um, so we got those things changed. We got, it was impossible also at that time to charge everyone with neglecting their animals, uh, because it was considered, it's their animals. They have the right to do with them whatever they want. Um, so we changed that law and they even got some felony abuse provisions put into our statutes.

We banned cock fighting. Believe it or not, up until 1998, cock fighting was legal. Um, so we just really have made a, a tremendous difference. And, um, but it's an uphill battle. We're a big ag state and, uh, so we spend most of our time fighting to keep what we have, which is very frustrating. But I tell our supporters, it's actually rather encouraging.

That our laws have made such a difference that the ag groups are fighting us so much. We have had made some progress in, um, you know, even advancing those things. And we will continue to do so.

Jasmin Singer: I just googled whether, uh, cock fighting was legal in Puerto Rico because I, I, and it's not anymore, which I, I just learned that because I remember going to Puerto Rico a few years ago and being greeted by a big cock fighting ring right outside the airport. So anyway, I digress. But that's, that's amazing work that you're doing.

Mariann, sorry, I interrupted you.

Mariann Sullivan: No, that's all right. I mean, I go back doing this long enough that I, I remember when cock fighting was, was legal in a number of states. It was a huge fight, huge fight. So glad to hear that you were part of that fight. It's actually pretty hard anywhere, not just in big Ag states, but anywhere to get sympathy for farmed animals from, from the public.

And I assume that you have to get sympathy from the public in order. I mean, that's one of the challenges of doing legislative work. Like it has to be popular. Do you think it's worse in Missouri because it's a big ag state and anyway, regardless of whether it's worse, how, how do you do it?

How do you get sympathy for these issues?

Bob Baker: Well, I think it's worse in the sense that our legislature is controlled by our rural legislators. Even though we have big municipalities like St. Louis and Kansas City, Springfield, Columbia, big college town, the rural legislators control our legislature. So that's what makes it so tough and what we normally do on, we try to keep dogs and cat issues separate from farm animals.

And we always maintained ourselves that we're animal welfare, we're not animal rights. Otherwise, they don't listen to you at all.

Mariann Sullivan: right.

Bob Baker: And, um, so the other thing that helps us is we, when farm animals, we do a lot of work behind the scenes. We find out who the legislators are that are amendable to farm animals.

And I usually go up there. I mean, it's so important no matter how bad you think some of these guys are, you know, I, I do meet with them and I want 'em to make sure that their battles are never personal. I try to befriend them all. And, uh, and, and that really makes a difference. 'cause a lot of times some of these big ag guys, if they really like you and respect you, they'll, they'll give a little on, on some things.

And the other thing that we do is we try to stay behind the scenes. In other words, on some of these farm bills, I do not publicly testify, but I will seek out those legislators, especially in the Senate where they have it really controlled by filibustering and get them to step up to the plate and, and do the fight.

So we try to keep up. Although I have to laugh about that. The one year we were filibuster, I got a bunch of legislators to filibuster a really bad animal bill, and it went on all day. Went into the night and at 3:30 in the morning, who calls me and my cell phone? The governor. And he wants to know what it would take for me to stand down.

And I thought I was being so behind the scenes on this, but I think some know, you know, but he was very cordial about it. And we did work out something, but I guess they just appreciate that I'm not taking a public stance, criticizing, you know, the farm industry. I'm working behind the scenes, and I think they appreciate that.

And the other key thing is just to find one Republican. Uh, in our Senate, Republicans have no problem filibustering. If one Republican stands up and fights a bill vehemently, it usually kills the bill. Where if it's a Democrat, they'll make it late. Eight or nine Democrats stand up and stand up for hours.

I mean, we went for days, a day and a half, almost 36 hours one time. And, um, and I've been successful in, in finding, you know, a few senators that are, are animal friendly. And so that helps. But it's a lot of work and, um, you know, but

Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

Bob Baker: been able to make progress and, and we're gonna keep at it.

Jasmin Singer: Well, I know that you're already giving great advice on how to sort of reach over to, uh, people with different perspectives and make it work. And I admit that this is not my forte personally.

Mariann Sullivan: Me

Jasmin Singer: am in, I'm really in awe of people who can do that. And coalitions have obviously been very important to your success.

So how has coalition building worked for you?

Bob Baker: Oh, it's very well, and, and one of the things I forgot to mention is that really helps us on the farm animals is the small farmers. In fact, there is an organization in our state called the Missouri Rural Crisis Center, and there are similar organizations in most ag states, and these are the ones that represent the small farmers.

We obviously don't agree on every issue, but they're very much against CAFOs, and that's what most of our legislative work is about, going after CAFOs. And they've been very helpful, especially when you get small family farmers to come up and testify and give some really heartwarming stories about how the CAFOs put their business, you know, put their farm out of business.

Uh, one woman got up, she was in her eighties and the farm had been in her family for many, many generations, and the smell and the stink from a CAFO just two miles away from there just ruined everything for them, and they sold the farm and, and they've lost everything. And, you know, you can get some of these small farmers.

It, it, it does really make, make a big difference.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah that makes an incredible difference. And I, you know, it's one of the challenges that so many people in the animal movement have had trouble with. Making these compromises with people who disagree on, you know, the fundamental issues, but agree on, you know, that's how you get things done. I mean, I think that, I think that's the special talent that legislators and people who work legislatively bring to this.

Alright, let's turn to Joshua to introduce him and, and the overall picture about Connecticut Votes for Animals. And then I, we we're gonna return to you, Bob, to discuss the specifics because I know you have had some remarkable defensive successes. Um, but first, Joshua, tell us about Connecticut Votes for Animals.

Is it, is it a similar organization? Where is it coming from? What is it? Uh, how long has it been around and what kind of work does it do?

Joshua Levin: It is a similar organization. Connecticut Votes for Animals has been around for almost two decades now. Uh, we are a 501c4 nonprofit organization where we perform legislative advocacy at the state capitol. Um, we are championing pro animal welfare policy um, you know, we've been very versatile in, in what our legislative priorities are.

We focus on companion animals, wildlife and farm animals. This past year for the 2025 legislative session, we were very diverse in those priorities. One of our main priorities was to get a statewide ban on second generation anticoagulant, rodenticides, or SJARs, which are used to control the rodent population, but they are counterproductive to their intended purpose because they're killing a lot of the birds of prey, foxes, even even dogs and cats, those animals that regularly control these populations.

Um, so we were trying to get that banned along with neonicotinoids, which are very dangerous insecticide that are

Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

Joshua Levin: threatening, you know, our, our pollinators, which we heavily rely upon. And then, uh, we were also looking to expand Desmond's Law. Uh, Desmond's Law was enacted in 2016 in Connecticut, and it provides animals who are involved in animal cruelty cases, um, advocates at, in, within the courtroom.

So basically giving them a voice in, in the courtrooms. Um, we're looking to expand that because right now it's just dogs and cats and we want to expand the definition of animal, you know, that that can be covered by these animal advocates to a, a, a much, you know, broader range of animals.

Mariann Sullivan: If I can just interrupt you for a second,

Joshua Levin: please

Mariann Sullivan: I damn it, I can't remember her name, but there was a professor at, at Yukon, um, I, I think law school, uh, who worked on that subject a lot. And we, she was on the Animal Law Podcast talking about that whole campaign regarding Desmond's Law, if people are interested in, in going deeper into that.

All right. Continue, sorry.

Joshua Levin: Love that now. And then you can also check out Desmond's Army too. They're, they're a state run volunteer advocate organization. They do some great work. They're actually just releasing in a 100 plus page animal cruelty policy brief about the, the increase in animal cruelty charges in the state of Connecticut went up like 35% over this past year.

So something we're, you know, keeping our eyes on and, and looking to make some, make some impactful legislative changes too. Uh, the, the last just few policy priorities that we have or, or have for 2025 and moving into 2026 were, um, defeating any rabbit farming expansion, which is, you know, the, the kind of topic of today, which is why I'm here.

And then also, uh, preventing a bear hunt in Connecticut. Those were our legislative priorities.

Jasmin Singer: And I'm glad you brought up the rabbit bill because we, yes. We wanted to chat about that. Uh, as a, as a grassroots organization, a lot of what you do involves educating people about how to get involved in the legislative process. So can you, can you tell us a bit about some of those efforts?

Joshua Levin: Of course. So we do a lot of webinars and we also hold in-person events. And prior to the 2025 session, we held our advocacy 1 0 1 webinar where we talked about, you know, the, the state legislative process, um, how to navigate the Connecticut General Assembly website, how important it is to get involved, how it's more than just your vote, you know, how, how submitting public testimony, speaking to your elected officials are even, even more important and more impactful than just casting your vote every, every year, two year, four years. And then also we go to, we're trying to inspire the younger generation. So in May I was at a high school in New Haven and I was providing them with an understanding of some of the animal welfare topics that are going on at the Capitol, our, our priorities, and then also slicing in there how to get involved. If a lot of our high school students don't feel like they're able to get involved because they're not a voting age yet. And so again, I was just trying to reinforce that narrative that it is, it is way more than just your, your voice and in fact, or excuse me, your vote. And in fact your voice when you are that young, speaking to your elected officials, can hold a lot of weight because you know they want to, they want to hear from you as well when, when you're that young and, and, you know, getting involved at that age is, is so, um. You know, uh, doesn't happen quite often, you know, so, so it, it definitely is very impactful.

And, um, then also just teaching about, you know, ways to engage. And we hold public testimony workshops and we're gonna be holding a, a lobbying day coming up. And so the public testimony workshop is just providing them with a general understanding of the, the, the few basic components to public testimony. Um, when it's written, it's a little bit more longer, and when you're presenting in Connecticut, it has to be three minutes at, at its maximum. So kind of just providing them with a general understanding of what that looks like, uh, the, the five major components to testimony, and then providing them with, uh, time to write their own and then present that and get them familiar with that whole presenting piece as well.

Jasmin Singer: Cool.

Mariann Sullivan: So where are the kids on, on animal issues? I mean, this is something I'm not as in touch with as I should be or as I would wanna be. I think you're totally right that having like a 14-year-old testify has gotta be very powerful. Like, much more powerful than an adult that's really gonna have an impact on anything.

Joshua Levin: Mm-hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: you say that there's a lot of engagement? I mean, I know your, your experience has been very specific, but, uh, but enthusiasm, engagement, like, do kids know about factory farming or, or other animal issues? Are they, are they, are they motivated?

Joshua Levin: I would say the engagement level isn't what it can be just because they're not, they're not too familiar with the process. You know, in, in our education we don't really teach about civic engagement. Right. And so, so they kind of lack that understanding of where to go and how to pursue it. But the enthusiasm and the desire to get involved is definitely there.

And that's the whole reason that that's CVA was reached out to, they were like, you know, we, our, our students really want to understand what is happening at the capitol in terms of animal welfare. You know, please can, can you come and just provide us with, you know, what, what CVA is working on? And we're, we're, we're happy to, to jump on that and, and help get them engaged.

'cause they want to know, they definitely wanna know.

Mariann Sullivan: that's good.

Joshua Levin: Yeah.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, it is really fascinating, uh, the way all of this keeps sort of shifting a bit. Um, I wanna go back to Bob, but Hannah, keep doing what you're doing 'cause you're doing a great job at it and I promise we're gonna get to you in in just a moment. Uh, I wanna get some Missouri specific. So, Bob, tell us about drones and why this is, this is such an important issue and, and also a little bit about your legislative work on this, if you don't mind.

Bob Baker: Sure. Absolutely. If I, if I may just say, uh, a follow up to what preceded me is we, we do visit high schools and I give lots of talks as many kids as possible, but the really scary thing that's happening in Missouri is that every year they come up with bills, and they did it again this year to, um, mandate agricultural training in every high school in the country, even in our municipal areas.

And it's just another attempt to indoctrinate. It's not educating, it's to indoctrinate because guess who's who in the bills, who would, uh, develop the, uh, subject matter is the Missouri Farm Bureau, and that's another big concern of ours that we fight every year. Um, but anyway, to get back to drones, um, this has been a big issue.

Um, the ag industry is just deathly scared of, of drones. They think it's going to expose and, and verify, uh, what everybody says about them, especially with, uh, and not so much that you're gonna see the care of the animals, although the feedlots are very much opposed to it also where you would see the animals.

But, um, the big thing is the, the spillage from their lagoon systems and, and the waste running away from them and contaminating the streams and, and things like that. So they, this is a big, big issue for them to, to pass the, this, this, um, legislation. And we had a little break for a while because, uh, bill passed in Texas, and I was hoping Conor could explain this more, but maybe, uh, Hannah could step in.

Because the ag people in Texas challenged it and it was upheld, but then the ag people took it to an appeals court and they overturned it being upheld. And so then all of a sudden it's taken a new life. They didn't overturn all of it from what I could gather, but I do notice now that the drone bills come back up, they have made modifications to try to meet and make sure it's constitutional.

So they're coming back a lot more energized now that they think that they have a, a venue, uh, of going forward. And this year they went all out. They had a lot, they approached it from every angle they had. The angle one was just ban drones altogether over private property without the property owner's permission.

Even law enforcement was prohibited from doing it without warrants, which actually really helped us in the long run. Um, then if they couldn't get that through, they had a bill that said that, um, no drone could be manufactured or can, uh, contain any critical components that are made in China. Claiming this was a national defense issue.

Um, and then they came back and said, well, if you're gonna use drones, you have to have liability insurance. I mean, it was just one thing a after another. And then they said you couldn't, uh, fly over hazardous and areas. And you know, it just went on and on. But fortunately, um, our contract lobbyists represent a lot of law enforcement agencies, so we got massive representation from law enforcement across the state, really, really fighting this.

And I was just so pleased. And a lot of 'em were rural sheriffs that really made the big difference. In addition, which really surprised me 'cause we hadn't reached out to them and hadn't thought too much about it, but the fire departments across the state were very much opposed. They said, I didn't realize how valuable drones were to fire departments.

They said it helps them identify hotspots. Uh, in fires, it helps 'em to make sure that there's no, uh, children or people left behind in the, uh, buildings. Um, it helps 'em direct their hoses and in wildfires it helps 'em determine the perimeter of the, of the thing and what to take on. So that really helped.

And then surprisingly, a lot of ambulance associations and search and rescue groups came out and said, oh my gosh, this is so valuable for us.

Mariann Sullivan: course.

Bob Baker: And some gave examples of young children that they had found that had gone missing. Uh, nursing homes testified and talked about how they, uh, got searched and rescue groups to use it to find some people with mental disability and dementia that walked off.

And, um, it was so overwhelming that the bills, no one on the committee ever and these were all ag committees, no one on the committee ever asked for a vote on, on any of these bills, and I was just shocked. And, and really surprised. So we didn't have to get involved other than again, working behind the scenes, you know, and, uh, getting groups, you know, on this thing.

And one of the things they need, some of 'em at first, just to point out to people that are dealing with the issue. When they came back with, okay, you can use drones, but they can't be made in China or have components from China. I thought, well, there isn't a big deal about that. But I found out he talked with SHARK, I don't know if any of you're familiar with SHARK, they use a lot of drones in animal welfare issues. And I talked to other people in animal welfare, but then I also talked to law enforcement and they said, oh my God, that would cripple us. Even police agencies said the best drones ever are made in China. And uh, and anything comparable is gonna cost us four times what we're paying now for them.

And even then paying for more expensive drones, they're still not as good right now as there are in China.

Mariann Sullivan: From what you're saying, it sounds like they have to either, is this a First Amendment issue or what? They have to either ban them all, regardless of how they're being used. They can't just, they can't just ban the ones that are being used over factory farms. Is that, I mean, I assume that, that if they could do that, they would probably be able to get that through from what you're saying.

Bob Baker: That's a really good question. And, and again, maybe Hannah can jump in here, because at one time the only went after ag facilities, but there was a concern, and I don't know what it, I mean, there was a constitutional concern about carving out an exception for one industry. And so they sort of withdrew from that.

So now they say the one bill did say agricultural property or any private property. So I guess to get away from that carving out, but certainly the driving force is big ag and um, and in fact they did.

Mariann Sullivan: other things you're talking about, who would be against any of that? Like going after like, uh, uh, fires or whatever. Everybody would be, it's only, it's gotta be only ag that doesn't want anybody to see their, their, their enormous piles of shit.

Bob Baker: Absolutely. But, it sort of hides their real cause by putting other things in. And because also the constitutional issue, they, they, they have done that and uh, so, you know, they keep coming up and so it's gonna be interesting what they come back with next year to, to address some of these concerns from law enforcement and fire.

The other thing, because of that lawsuit in Texas, they modified the outright ban to make exceptions. And one of the exceptions that was really important was anyone that's federally certified and is doing it in the course of their business. So again, I reached out to Shark, I reached out to different, uh, humane organizations that used drones and they said they all are federally certified and certainly would be considered as doing it in part of their business.

And I know I ran that by Conor and she thought that was a really good out for us. But we'd rather kill the bill altogether than worry about, you know, matching the loophole because it definitely would affect, you know, a small farmer who wants to use a drone to show spillage coming down from a CAFO near him, or just any individuals that's doing this on the so and so.

It would hurt them, but at least it wouldn't have a major impact on the animal welfare organizations that are, that are using them.

Jasmin Singer: Hmm. Okay. Well, um, I have many more questions about that, but, uh, in order to keep us somewhat on track here, another issue that I know has seen increasingly successful measures in some other states is the prohibition on cultivated meat. And, uh, less draconian, but still problematic, the mandated labeling of cultivated meat as lab created.

So what has happened so far in Missouri?

Bob Baker: It's another big fight. Uh, and you're right, some of the bills this year didn't call for an outright ban, but they did have to require labeling. One of the labeling measures had to be stated, lab created and things like this. And, um, so it was very worrisome. Um, but I think, and I'm not sure why I'm still trying to figure this out.

The ag industry, they had hearings on these bills and the ag industry was not very supportive of them. And I think they're concerned about some constitutional issues on the way the, the wording was. So, I, I'm really, I wish I could help you more. They seemed to lose enthusiasm for it and, and at, and it wasn't right away.

At first, they were very supportive. So I don't know what causes. One of the arguments that I found really, really effective, working behind the scenes with legislators is convincing them, and there's a lot of articles to support this, that China and the United States right now are in a big fight, uh, in creating cultivated meat.

Not just ai, but this cultivated meat. And so we worked hard and we got a lot of information from Paul Shapiro. I wish I could remember what group he's with now. Used to be with HSUS, but, um, that, and so we started spreading that around that China was eventually, if, if we ban cultivated meat, and some states have, I think Florida has, that China's going to take control and finally they're gonna control the world food supply and we're gonna be begging China for food.

And that scared the heebiegeebiesour of a lot of, even every big AG guys, you think, no, no, we can't let that happen.

Mariann Sullivan: Especially since there have been certain points in the past. I don't know whether this is still going on, but there's certain interests in, in Big Ag they were very open to the idea of moving into this technology and, uh, you know, the people, not the people who were raising the animals, they're stuck with the animals, but other people, they just wanna make money.

And if there was money in this, they, so maybe that's still going on from what you're saying. It sounds like it might still be going on, that, that they're not going to oppose it because, you know, China is in competition and because they still think that there's potential here for, for big money. So that is definitely, I think, a toehold in, in trying to fight this legislation, which seems to be supported largely by the ones who actually own the animals and their stock. Uh, there's nothing they can do to, to trans, well, I guess they could, the big, the big players, Tyson has put their foot in the water or whatever with cultivated meat, but the really big players. They're really stuck with, with the, the hideous, horrifying model that they've got now. Anyway,

I just had to offer an opinion on that.

Hannah Truxell: Well, no, it's totally fair. Um, 'cause one of the things that I learned recently is that, um, both Cargill and JBS or JB Swift have invested, have invested, you know, substantial amounts of money in cultivated meat. Um, so, you know, they may see the writing on the wall too.

Mariann Sullivan: So many interesting forces competing here.

Bob Baker: We also raised the constitutional issue of banning one segment of an industry against the other. We used a lot of examples, the two of just how ridiculous this is. We reminded them that, you know, the, a lot of people fought the railroads when they came along. Uh, cars replaced horses and just, uh, just used a myriad of, of circumstances where technology put other people out of business.

But it helped the economy overall, and I think that made 'em look a little foolish too. But I don't think it's very long shot.

Mariann Sullivan: So Hannah, clearly, especially with issues like this that, you know, involve a lot of knowledge of a lot of different forces coming together in different ways. I, I imagine the Animal Policy Alliance can have a big role with, uh helping people sort all of this information out.

Tell us a little bit about what you consider the role of the Animal Policy Alliance in, in working with groups, particularly as it relates to defensive campaigns like these.

Hannah Truxell: Sure. One of the primary reasons that we created the Animal Policy Alliance is because we know that, um, for a lot of grassroots organizations, there's, there's a will and there's a power to be able to make change or defend against these industries, but there's also a lack of time and resources and we hope to be able to provide support in order to fill those gaps. So in the instance of the Missouri Drone legislation, my colleague Conor Lampkin, who's the assistant Policy counsel, dove right in on the, uh, litigation that Bob mentioned in Texas over the similar law that was passed there. And with her research, she was able to identify, you know, constitutional issues and digest the opinion of the court and then be able to take that information and further distill it down for Bob to be able to use it in his behind the scenes lobbying. So we hope to be able to provide that sort of, uh, expertise and research capability of going deeper on these issues to provide resources and tools to defeat these bad laws.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, this is so unbelievably important. When you think of the forces that Bob has been up against, like the most well-funded companies, like they have unlimited resources and you're just hopefully being able to level the playing field a little bit to, to do some of that, you know, groundwork that is involved in going to legislators and they, you know, the legislators probably know nothing.

That's gen generally

Hannah Truxell: Yes, it is..

Mariann Sullivan: How things go. You have to give them all of this information and, and the competition between, as remarkable as your group is Bob, uh, with the resources you have as opposed to the resources of the people you're up against is just unbelievable. So yeah, that seems like at least you have one thing on your side is that you're right about everything. That always helps, but it doesn't help that much.

Bob Baker: But the other thing that that's important to help is the APA and other groups, because we can't know every issue. Obviously we face so many issues. I'm just hitting the highlights. And it's so important to be able to reach out to Connor or Hannah at APA and give us some talking points and and guidance, so we really appreciate that.

Hannah Truxell: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: It

Hannah Truxell: And

Mariann Sullivan: absolutely vital work.

Hannah Truxell: yeah. One thing I'll add to that is when we saw this, um, trend of these cultivated meat bans, uh, we had a lot of APA members who were like, how do we respond to them? Um, we also know, as Bob has alluded to, that animal groups unfortunately, aren't the best defenses against those laws because they're just not taken seriously by legislators. And, uh, one of the things that we did was partner with, um, another organization that focuses on these types of laws and worked to put together a toolkit with talking points and arguments that groups can use behind the scenes. So we hope to equip them with these tools that they wouldn't be able to get elsewhere.

Mariann Sullivan: That is. So, yeah, the more I talk about this with you, the more real I realize how, how needed it is. Because another thing that we're always stuck with is the fact, and this happens to everybody, not just work people working legislatively, but we're always told that, well, we don't know. Have you ever been to a farm?

Have you ever been to. Of course I haven't. Like why would I, why would I have worked in a farm? Like that doesn't make any, but we're not experienced in it because we're against it. And they act like because, because they do it, they're the professionals. They're the ones who know everything.

I mean, uh, that's thrown up against every animal advocate constantly, I think all the time that we don't know what's really going on. Well, you know. Uh, the more we know, the more horrified we are. So, yeah, that's incredibly valuable. Alright, let's get to rabbits because, uh, as I, I think Joshua and I were talking about before we started recording, like, who doesn't love a rabbit?

Uh, but you know, we think of rabbits as pets. We think of rabbits as in our yard. But you know, they're rabbits are also used in many ways, and one of the ways they're used is in Connecticut. And Connecticut is not like, not like Missouri, which I'm gonna say Missouri because I think it's a pretentious for anybody who's not from Missouri to say it Missouri. We don't think of Connecticut as being a big ag state, but of course there are factory farms everywhere. There is animal agriculture everywhere. And so it's part of the work that that you're doing too. And the campaign that we wanna talk to you about is this successful defeat of this bill was known as HB 5 1 3 4, I think. Can you explain what that legislation would have provided?

Joshua Levin: Of course. So the vehicle for 2025 House Bill 5 1 3 4. The purpose of it was to create a path for rabbits to be processed in Connecticut for consumption. And it was going to allow each producer, uh, which is just each farm, um, to be able to keep up to 1000 rabbits each year for the purpose of food production. Proponents of this bill, which are primarily rural legislators that have, you know, big, big farm interests in, in their districts. Uh, the proponents state that the current supply of rabbit meat does not meet the demand, and there is very little evidence to support that, that claim. On the contrary, you know, there, there is very little outcry for increase in rabbit meat on our shelves. Um, even, you know, back a few years ago, Whole Foods tried to put rabbit meat on their shelves, and within just a few weeks to a month it was removed because of the public backlash that they received. And so we see here a, a major societal shift away from viewing rabbits as meat and more as our companion animals.

They are the third most common household pet behind cats and dogs. And so there is this, this shift going on here. And so in 2025, CVA as as we have done it in the past, primarily relies upon our grassroots legislative advocacy. We have a 10,000 plus member base and they are very active. They want to get involved, and so we rely heavily upon them. And in 2025, not unlike 2023 and 2022, when the vehicle for rabbit farming expansion got out of committee. or rather had a public hearing, they made their voices known. In 2025 when the public hearing occurred. There were seven pieces of testimony submitted in support of this bill. But when you go through and look at it, there were actually two of them were actually opposed.

They just clicked support by accident. So we had five pieces of testimony supporting rabbit farming expansion, and we had 568 submitted in opposition. So it just really goes to show you that like the public does not want rabbit meat on their shelves. They don't want that at all. And in 2024, two hundred and forty six pieces were submitted in opposition, nine in support. In 2022, you had 319 in opposition and three in support.

And so you can really see that time and time again year after year. The public does not want this, and they make their voices known.

Jasmin Singer: Hmm. So how did you find out about it in the first place and and why did you decide to take it on? And also, third question, excuse my French, but who would eat a fucking rabbit? Continue.

Joshua Levin: That the third question is the most valid question there. Uh, we, we've been around for a while and so, so we, we monitor the state legislative process and, you know, are tracking legislation that affects animal welfare in the state and knew that this was a big one that has come up for, you know, at, at least through 2020 in, in my research.

But I know that it has been, you know, a topic that has come up before that. And so we, as you know, a pro animal welfare organization decided this is something that we need to take a stance on and has been routinely one of our legislative priorities during the each legislative session.

Mariann Sullivan: Uh, I know you worked with the Animal Policy Alliance, obviously, that you're here together talking about it. So tell me what they, this is a very different issue than the issues that Bob is talking about. I mean, you're not up against like the big behemoths. And we talked a little bit about how Animal Policy Alliance was able to help in those issues.

How about in this issue? Was research and evidence important to your campaign?

Joshua Levin: Absolutely. And, and The Humane League provided us with such a wonderful policy brief. It was a 23 plus page, uh, research on what a good legislative strategy would be. Some messaging options, bill history and voting records for, you know, legislators, whether they voted in support or opposition to this.

And then in depth research on the many key talking points that we then used as the basis for our campaign, and that really did help it. It helped transform our campaign strategy and our messaging strategy for 2025 compared to previous years. In previous years, we focused on an emotional messaging approach, and we relied heavily upon the fact that rabbits are the third most common household pet. And because we are animal lovers, we just kind of assumed that everybody else would hear that and, and just, you know, understand that, you know, our, our side is, you know, the, the winning side is, is the, the ethical side. Uh, but that's not the case. There are vested interests in this, monetary interests. And so The Humane League provided us with a lot of research and, good talking points, persuasive talking points that we were able to then use.

And so for 2025, we continued to emphasize the co the close relations between humans and rabbits. But then we also talked about how previous attempts to expand rabbit meat protection has led to significant public backlash. And we cited Whole Foods attempts. And then we also talked about how the public perception of rabbits has already begun to shift. We have Petco and PetSmart that no longer sell rabbits, and they now offer rescue rabbits for adoption. And then we talked about how the cosmetic industry has already been moving away from animal testing, including on rabbits. So we, we see this, you know, broad reaching shift, paradigm shift about rabbits, and it would just be a huge step backwards for our Connecticut legislature to pass such a, you know, draconian bill. Um, we also talked about the high prevalence of disease in rabbit slaughterhouses, and, um. Rebecca Bernardo, who is the president of Every Bunny Counts, which is a Connecticut based nonprofit and is also a member of CVA, helped publicize the high prevalence of disease in these slaughterhouses.

And that's because rabbits are not considered, are, are not defined as livestock under the USDA's definition of livestock. And so they are then not provided the very minimal protections that other livestock animals are under the Humane Methods of Slaughter Act. And so because of that, they suffer really cramped and inhumane confinement, where the cages that they lived in are these wire mesh cages that are no bigger than a, than, you know, an eight by 11 sheet of paper, which makes them not be able to stretch their limbs and leads to spinal deformities and, and broken bones and painful sores. And are also very social creatures.

And so when they're put into these inhumane cramped cages, they suffer severe psychological distress. And then the brutal slaughtering practices that then they suffer from because they are not protected by the USDA's definition of livestock, where their bones are broken in order to be shackled in, in a, you know, efficient way for these slaughtering houses.

And then they're fully conscious sometimes when they're decapitated. So it's just, it's, it's horrible and it just wouldn't make sense for Connecticut to do such a thing to, to pass such a law when the public has routinely said that they don't want this, you know, and they, they've made their voices heard. So that's really how The Humane League has helped.

Mariann Sullivan: It is kind of, uh, I mean bravo, and this is not a criticism, it may sound like. It's a worry that so many of the arguments of, of why we shouldn't allow rabbit slaughter, and I think that it's the same with horse slaughter arguments end up being, well, they're not like those other animals.

And presumably your organization is also gonna wanna do bills regarding those other animals. And I guess, I guess that's how legislative work goes. You just work with the arguments that you've got for this particular bill. Ha Hannah, you're nodding your head. Is that, uh, I mean, 'cause obviously The Humane League is worried about 'em all.

I mean, as you are as well, Joshua. So, so is that how it goes? You just use those arguments when they're good?

Joshua Levin: Yes, certainly. I mean. We want to protect all of our animals, but you, you gotta start somewhere, right? And, and typically something, uh, a rule that I abide by is it typically takes about three years to get, you know, your initiative, your legislative initiative passed. The first year you speak, and they don't hear you. The second year you speak and they listen. And then the third year you speak and they do something. And obviously that's not the rule of thumb for everything, but you

Jasmin Singer: I love it.

Joshua Levin: that's kind of how that works.

Mariann Sullivan: Well, it's good to have a a, a long timeline, a realistic timeline.

Joshua Levin: to be, yeah, you have to be, and, and on a, on a defensive campaign like this, it's a little bit different. Um, we aren't trying to get a law passed that like, you know, is a ban on SJARs, for instance. We're just trying to ensure that legislation doesn't get passed to begin with. So it definitely is a little bit different, but the, that rule is still there, that, you know, they're not gonna always listen to you. But once you get the public involved, time and time again, your voice does start to carry more weight.

Jasmin Singer: How does the grassroots legislative advocacy work in, in Connecticut? Like is it, is it very hands-on with meeting with legislators? And I, I, wanna ask if they're receptive, but it sounds like from what you just said, maybe they're not receptive at first.

Joshua Levin: So. Two, two components to our grassroots advocacy. We rely on our member base a lot, and so we submit social media alerts, email alerts, blasts about, you know, upcoming public hearings, upcoming committee votes, upcoming floor votes, and we are very, very lucky that our member base is involved. And so they are very efficient and very productive in, in using their voice and, and, you know, being heard. On the other hand, we are, we have contracted lobbyists that we then go, you know, and, and, and speak at the capitol with. And we have our, uh, representatives that throughout the years have been very helpful in ensuring that, uh, this bill doesn't get called, that, that certain caucuses don't use this bill as kind of the, the quid pro quo leverage situation where, you know, if, if you raise this bill, we'll we'll raise this bill for you.

Um, we've, we've had legislators that have been very helpful in, in ensuring that this bill does not get used in those certain situations. Um, and then we also have, Connecticut has an animal advocacy caucus, and so we've worked very closely with the animal advocacy caucus chairs to, to also help, you know, champion a successful defense of this bill.

Mariann Sullivan: You know, Connecticut, it, I mean, it's not a huge farming state, but obviously as we said before, there are factory farms there 'cause there are factory farms everywhere. You've done, I mean obviously farm animals are one of your, the issues that your organization is working on, but I feel like in the past, not as much as some, as wildlife and companion animal issues, which makes sense. Do you anticipate this becoming more of a thing and do you think there's this advantage to the fact that Connecticut does not think of itself as an ag state the way Missouri does? And um, and, and so it might be a little bit more reputationally attractive for Connecticut to crack down on some of the, I'm sure there are huge poultry farms and whatever.

It's an out there question, but.

Joshua Levin: No, no, it's, it's a good thinking, critical thinking question. Connecticut is not known as, as a farming state. And if we pass, you know, there's, uh, an argument there that if we pass such legislation that our reputation will start to shift, right?

And that, that is a big talking point that The Humane League provided us. And so we were then able to talk to our legislators, like, why, why would we want to, know, you know, dampen the name like the, the Connecticut brand by passing such a law? When on the other hand we have really, really good, really positive pro animal welfare coming out.

It, it's just, it's such double think to on one hand want to, uh, to, to actually successfully pass legislation in 2025 that made certain animals that are used in testing, uh, and mandatory to be put up for adoption once their testing is, is, is, is complete. And so we have, you know, a second lease on life for certain animals that we're providing.

And then on the other hand, we're subjugating rabbits to horribly inhumane methods of slaughter. It just doesn't make sense. And so certainly a, a very good talking point to use with legislators.

Mariann Sullivan: Bob, uh, you know, we, you, you've worked on so many issues and we can't cover 'em all in depth, but one thing I really wanna get to is this fire code issue because I mean, explain to me the reasons why factory farms are so opposed to, to having sprinklers. Like what the hell? Are they that expensive?

Like is it purely money? And this just seems like an issue that you really could get the public on your side. Having sprinklers in buildings where animals are living and where there are pretty regularly fires, right?

Bob Baker: Yeah. According to the uh, Animal Welfare Institute, I think it was last year, it was like 3.4 million, uh, farm animals were killed in, in fires and, and these things. And that was a real disappointment for us 'cause we thought we had it beat, um, and uh, they snuck it into a big omnibus bill in the last week of the session.

Uh, it didn't do away with all fire. 'cause that was our, what well let to go back up to see what you know, started this whole issue is the National Fire Protection Association for the first time ever made the recommendation for fire sprinklers in agriculture buildings. Before they just recommended other normal fire codes, but this year they went a, a step further and so it galvanized a lot of states' uh, ag groups to go in and fight that.

And some states were very successful. So, when the bill was introduced in Missouri, they, it said that they could have no fire codes, restrictions, nothing whatsoever. They thought they'd just start, you know, and so we were able to oppose that. Uh, we got it amended in the Ag Committee in the house, and it was only banning sprinkler systems.

So we certainly would not still support it, but it was least sigh of relief that it wouldn't to away with all other fire codes.

Mariann Sullivan: Wow.

Bob Baker: But in the Senate, they said, oh, um, well it didn't even go through a, a committee hearing, which makes us suspect, even constitutionally, if it was valid. But they added it on as amendment to another bill in the Senate and then it went back to the house and passed.

And what the amended bill said was they lessen it from not just, uh, banning fire sprinklers, but it says no fire code can force someone to make structural changes to the buildings. So it was even worse than just saying that they couldn't even have, you know. And you know, it's one of those big disappointments for us.

We thought we had it beat the sponsor of the bill in the house was going along with their compromise. But this one senator got it amended onto the bill, no one caught it. And, um, so it, it did pass, unfortunately. But, um,

Mariann Sullivan: it just, I mean, it's just money, right? Like there's no other reason?

Bob Baker: Right.

Mariann Sullivan: It's

Bob Baker: No, no, no, no.

Mariann Sullivan: for. I mean, they're not that expensive.

Bob Baker: Yeah, it's why, I guess, you know, they made this big argument in the fire sprinkler systems and I, you know, I couldn't really say, but I, I don't understand why they're so even concerned about all these other fire code and, uh, 'cause they, they were really pushing for no regulations whatsoever on, on them.

And, uh, and it's so unclear about insurance companies. We got different, you know, wording of that because we'd heard that the, uh, ag oftentimes subsidized people who lost their animals in fires and, uh, so, you know, they really don't have any incentive other than these fire codes to provide, you know, precautions.

And it's the same thing with when I was working with Humane Farming Association. It was during a years where we had a terrible drought in the Midwest and they were not taking any preventive measures to stop these animals from dying in the heat, uh, the excessive heat. They were still being overcrowded and, and yet USDA was coming in and, and paying them.

Now, I will say this, in Oklahoma, they did go after two big farmers, and I don't remember all the particulars, but they, uh, intentionally let their animals die in the heat. And it was the only case that I know where, uh, they were actually prosecuted for a fraud. But most of 'em

Mariann Sullivan: The same thing with bird flu as well. They get compensated for all of those

Bob Baker: Right, right.

Mariann Sullivan: killed.

Bob Baker: Yeah, they don't have any incentive.

Mariann Sullivan: and I think that they've just increased the amount that they'll get compensated to a hundred percent. So, like, you could just go in the business of having your birds get bird flu and make a lot of money.

Like it's, it's

Bob Baker: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: Well, sorry, sorry

Bob Baker: No, no. That was a valid question. And, and the other scary thing is going on with, with farm animals is they're increasing the speeds at slaughter houses, you know, especially for hogs. And it is just, it's just horrible. And, uh, I mean, when I was at Humane Farming, I went into slaughter houses and it's, it was just, and these animals, most of these animals are alive when they're being skinned alive and going into scalding tanks alive.

And at the one place we complained, so... unbelievable. So they put spill guards around the, uh, spill tanks, but it wasn't to protect the animals. They were still putting them in while some of 'em were partially alive, it was to protect the workers underneath. They were getting splashed with the hot water. You know, it's just, and it's one of the issues that's never really been addressed to me.

Um, you know, you talk about gestation creases, horrible, and even got one of the third largest, um, hog producer in the country, uh, facility shut down in South Dakota. But the thing that bothers me is the slaughterhouse. Nothing has changed in, in regulating animals being slaughtered, and it's just the, the abuse is absolutely horrific.

And even the Humane Slaughter Act is totally ignored. Um, and the only one that speaks out are some of the USDA inspectors that are brave enough to come forward. And, uh, you know, and it is just, I think only 3% of the funding for slaughterhouse investigations is for meat inspection.

And the inspectors, even the good inspectors are saying, we are so busy checking the quality of the meat, we never have time to go back and check that portion of the slaughter house. And, um, so I hope, you know, sometime there was a book out just recently called Out of Sight. Uh, that exposes some of this.

Mariann Sullivan: Of course, Gail Eisnitz's, his book, new book. Yeah.

Bob Baker: Yeah, you should probably interview her on your, on an episode.

Mariann Sullivan: she's

Jasmin Singer: is so bizarre. She's not only on our list, but like, uh, you know, her, her assistant wrote to me today and I was like, yeah, she's on our list and now you're bringing,

Mariann Sullivan: she's

Jasmin Singer: now you're bringing her up. Clearly we need to like get her, get on this immediately. Uh, she's iconic.

Mariann Sullivan: But this did make me wanna ask you, Hannah, like, like so many of the issues that, that Bob brought up have to do with the fact that the federal government has just become a wasteland, um, for getting a pro animal legislation passed. I mean, is that, is that a really important reason for people to, to do this kind of work actually at the state and local level?

Hannah Truxell: Yes, without a doubt. Um, I think calling it a wasteland is, is generous,

It's

Mariann Sullivan: a kindness.

Hannah Truxell: a

frankly, laws of kindness. Um, but there are absolutely, you know, more avenues for, uh, change for animals at the state and local levels. And it also, um, that that's where the, the power lies truthfully. And so doing that work there is absolutely it's so important, um, and we hope to see, you know, more accomplished at those levels as the, as the years go on.

Mariann Sullivan: For those listening who have been inspired, uh, to get involved in legislative work and have the proper personality, unlike Jasmin and probably me. ' cause

Jasmin Singer: I beg your pardon?

Mariann Sullivan: You have to be able to talk civilly to these people.

Jasmin Singer: Are you saying I can't?! I'm just kidding.

Mariann Sullivan: Um, so, so what would you say to people who, who would like to get involved?

How do they find the right group? Um, hopefully one that is already working with the Animal Policy Alliance, but, you know, perhaps not. If there isn't the right group, how do they start one.

Hannah Truxell: Sure. The best place to find that information is our website, uh, animalpolicyalliance.org. For folks who maybe don't have the, what's the word, skill of being able to, uh, have those conversations like you're talking about, um, under the campaign section of our website, we've made it really easy for folks to, uh, take action to, to do things like send emails, um, so send emails on the horrible federal bills we're seeing. Um, but then also you can find the, uh. Animal Policy Alliance members. On our website, we have a list and a beautiful map, um, of where everyone is located. And if there's not an APA member in your city or state, we encourage you, um, to reach out to us. If you're interested in starting your own group, there's contact info on the website and we'd be more than glad to to talk with you,

Jasmin Singer: Hannah, what percentage of the work that legislative advocates for animals do is defensive and is is that growing like as, as big Ag seeks to solidify their control over the ways that animals are treated?

Mariann Sullivan: I wanna add something to that question too. Like, if it is growing, could we see that as a positive in a way that they didn't use to have to get laws passed to let them do what they wanna do?

Hannah Truxell: Right? I mean, I would say, as frustrating as it is, if they're not. for you, like you're not doing anything right. I mean, we're watching it happen right now, um, at the federal level and in California over prop 12. Like they're, you know, they're losing their minds over this. Um, and they've been trying since 2018 to get a, a federal bill passed that would undo laws like Prop 12 and they've not been successful. So that's the result of, of our movement's work, frankly, being able to, you know, to to pass laws and, and fend off these attacks. But in terms of the percentage of, of defensive work, I would say it varies by state. The work Bob is doing in, um, Missouri, the work that's happening in a state like Texas, I'd say a majority of it is defensive work.

Um, it's, it's relentless. Whereas in, in states like California, Washington State, there are, are more opportunities to pass laws that are, um, progressive or protect animals like you all recently had on my colleague and a few other APA members talking about the octopus farming bills.

Mariann Sullivan: Right.

Hannah Truxell: Like those are not bills that could ever be considered in a place like Texas. You know, like that's just a, a non-starter from the jump, unfortunately, um, because of the landscape, but then also because they're so busy trying to fight off these attacks from big Ag. And, um, in some states, the ag industry, ag industry is powerful across the board, um, but in some states they really do have the legislative branch in a, a choke hold, if you will.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, yeah. Hannah, remind people, uh, where they can learn more about the Animal Policy Alliance and its participating organizations.

Hannah Truxell: Sure. Uh, animalpolicyalliance.org. And you can also learn about The Humane League's work at thehumaneleague.org.

Jasmin Singer: Great. And I, I just, as we're starting to close, I just wanna thank all of you so much for joining us today. Bob, how can people stay on top of your work and potentially get involved?

Bob Baker: Well, go to our website. It's maal.org stands for the Missouri Alliance for Animal Legislation.

Jasmin Singer: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Bob. And uh, Joshua, what about you? How can people learn more about your work and support your efforts?

Joshua Levin: You can also head to our website, which is ctvotesforanimals.org, and head over to our tools and resources to kind of just get a good understanding of how to get engaged at the, uh, Connecticut State legislature. And you can also sign up for our email alerts where we'll be routinely sending out action alerts for any upcoming public hearings or, or, or committee votes and, and provide you with ways to get involved.

Jasmin Singer: Well, I know that I, I would love for bonus, uh, for our flock members. I would love to chat with each of you about people who want to, you know, spend some of their time getting involved with making a change for animals. There's only so much time we have in the day, and so we'll save that for bonus. So if you're listening to this and you're disappointed that that's gonna be on bonus and not this podcast, uh, please consider becoming a Flock member at ourhenhouse.org/support. Don't forget to like this episode on YouTube and follow us on the socials. Thank you so much. we'll talk to you next time.