The Hen Report: “It’s Not Happening” | Protein Myths and Animal Rights Advocacy

Jasmin Singer: Oh, okay. I see you have your, uh, Red Wings, your like gay Red Wings,

Mariann Sullivan: Rochester Red Wings. It's the local,

Jasmin Singer: you know, the,

Mariann Sullivan: baseball team.

Jasmin Singer: know.

Mariann Sullivan: I have this on because it was the only thing I could find this morning that was warm enough since it's freezing here. It's August. Like could somebody inform God that it's August?

Jasmin Singer: Well, I would, but I'm atheist. Uh, I,

Mariann Sullivan: Problem.

Jasmin Singer: I, um,

Mariann Sullivan: I mean, I thought climate change was going the other way. I mean, I like this weather. Uh, it's just confusing me.

Jasmin Singer: Well, honestly, I think that part of the climate change thing is the, is the wild card aspect. Like we.

Mariann Sullivan: Totally. I'm just being silly.

Jasmin Singer: No, I know. So I, well, I just want you to know, one of my recent thrift finds was a Red Wings, uh, like a really cute cropped Red Wings sweatshirt that I'm gonna wear to the,

Mariann Sullivan: it's

Jasmin Singer: to the gay game. We're going to the gay game.

We

Mariann Sullivan: go to the game, the gay game. I don't know why it's a gay game, but you know, every, every year they have one game that's like.

Jasmin Singer: Gay.

Mariann Sullivan: So that they can sell sweatshirts. And I, when I moved here, I, I imagined myself becoming a baseball fan 'cause I have followed baseball in the past.

And I thought you know, I, I, I like that movie, Bull Durham, like the, the local minor league team. And, and I, I pictured myself as Susan Sarandon, I think

Jasmin Singer: Huh.

Mariann Sullivan: Really involved and, and it, I, you know, I didn't like, who cares? have a hard

time caring about sports. I,

Jasmin Singer: yeah.

once

Mariann Sullivan: in my life, I got involved in following sports.

It was, it was following the Mets in the eighties. Like who didn't

Jasmin Singer: I did too. I've, I've followed Mets in the eighties. I was a child. Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: and you know, that was when I used to drink more than I should and go out to bars and everybody would watch the game. It was fun.

Jasmin Singer: That's cute. Alright, but this is, we, we are gonna talk about animal related things.

Mariann Sullivan: Now I hardly drink anything and, I, I have a gay sweatshirt and that, that's, that's the extent of my, uh, devotion to the Red Wings. It's sad.

Jasmin Singer: No, I, I think it's fine.

Mariann Sullivan: as, as someone that frequently, I'm actually not

Jasmin Singer: I really wanna rewatch the, uh, uh, Bull Durham. I wanna

Mariann Sullivan: good movie.

Jasmin Singer: rewatch that.

Mariann Sullivan: great movie.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, thanks for that reminder.

Mariann Sullivan: Great movie. There's

Jasmin Singer: so I.

Mariann Sullivan: I wanted to rewatch. Oh, I know. For Halloween I wanna rewatch Practical Magic.

Jasmin Singer: I'm in.

Mariann Sullivan: magic showing.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I'm in a hundred percent except for the fact that I will be absolutely, uh, impossible to bear or by Halloween because of the play I'm in in December.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, well, we don't have to do it on hall. We can't do anything. I can't do that sort of thing on Halloween because I get 500 trick or treaters.

Jasmin Singer: Oh 500. No, you can, you like legit get way more than 500.

Mariann Sullivan: it's about 500. I've bought

Jasmin Singer: Oh.

Mariann Sullivan: of candy in the past and it, it's been enough though. I

Jasmin Singer: But then we,

Mariann Sullivan: get six.

Jasmin Singer: but then we like turn

Mariann Sullivan: Halloween pandemonium around here.

Jasmin Singer: It's so great. Look at us being all autumnal and stuff.

Mariann Sullivan: I know. Uh, it's the weather. It's the weather.

Jasmin Singer: So tell, tell us about last Month's Animal Law Podcast update. You have an update.

Mariann Sullivan: I do have an update because if you listen to last month's, um, Animal Law Podcast, it was about uh, a lawsuit brought by the Center for Biological Diversity and others, but the lawyer I was interviewing was from the Center for Biological Diversity, and it was about this horrific prison facility that they built in the Everglades, which I hate to use the term, but I will use it. Um, Alligator Alcatraz, like they have to have a cartoony name for, for their horrifying prison. the whole lawsuit was based on not on the human rights violations. Not that we're not all concerned about that, but on the violation of environmental laws because the Everglades obviously is a place that bill literally billions of dollars have been spent to try to save it. And they're just like. Just throw it away. It's like horrifyingly, environmentally destructive. And they did none of the things that you need to do. Um, particularly this lawsuit was pursuant to, uh, NEPA, uh, the National Environmental Policy Act. Though the, the state for, no, no, it was the national one. That, uh, there isn't a state version in, in Florida. There is in some states. Uh, and, and saying that, well, they didn't, basically, they haven't followed any of the policies you have to follow in order to do this anything that has an environmental impact, like environmental impact statements, which everybody's heard of, they just didn't do any of that.

It's the Everglades! Anyway, so it was a great interview. Extremely knowledgeable attorney. And since then, the case, it was they were trying to get a temporary restraining order and they got a temporary restraining order, but that only lasts for a short amount of time. And now they have gotten a preliminary injunction, which means that they have to, I mean, of course appeals will be filed, and who knows what'll happen next, but at the moment, they're going to be forced to shut down construction. I mean, to shut

Jasmin Singer: That's amazing.

Mariann Sullivan: the place down. I'm not seeing this reported anywhere. I mean, I'm seeing it reported that there's a lawsuit, but nobody's talking about the fact that it's on behalf of animals. It's like, it's unbelievable.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: Everybody needs to listen to that interview even though some of it gets a little technical, but really not that much.

'cause she was a really good communicator

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: and I was just like, how often do I do an interview with somebody who then immediately wins their case?

Jasmin Singer: Seriously.

Mariann Sullivan: Not often.

Jasmin Singer: That's so cool. I love that. I love the creativity of that so much.

Mariann Sullivan: was a long description, but I couldn't help it.

Jasmin Singer: So, uh. I don't have anything as exciting, I don't think. But I did wanna tell you a little story, which I, you know, just so that our listeners know, sometimes I'll, sometimes when I tell a story on Our Hen House, like, I've already talked to Mariann about it, but you don't know this at all.

Mariann Sullivan: No, it's a mystery.

Jasmin Singer: I wanna talk about protein. I wanna talk about protein. Protein. I've had two strange encounters in the last week relating to veganism, specifically about protein. So I've been weightlifting at my gym because, uh, apparently you're supposed to do that. And I ha like, I just ignored that fact thinking it was for other people.

And

Mariann Sullivan: Go on.

Jasmin Singer: No, I mean, don't be, because I have this little age thing that the app tells you how old you are with your...

By

Mariann Sullivan: lifting, you use these machines that, and I've been to the gym and all the people who use the machines are

Jasmin Singer: They're 90.

Mariann Sullivan: 60. At least

Jasmin Singer: No. Well, I'm glad you said

Mariann Sullivan: not

Jasmin Singer: no, no,

Mariann Sullivan: it's not

Jasmin Singer: no.

Mariann Sullivan: like this.

Jasmin Singer: No, no. Hang on. But I, I actually, the re I, I, I'm ex

Mariann Sullivan: don't mean

Jasmin Singer: but I'm

Mariann Sullivan: it.

Jasmin Singer: extending myself beyond the machines. That's why I got a personal trainer for four sessions

Mariann Sullivan: You're

Jasmin Singer: because I want,

Mariann Sullivan: You're

Jasmin Singer: because I wanna be.

Mariann Sullivan: I wanna be.

Jasmin Singer: I'm not trying to be fucking virtuous, I'm just trying to tell you a

Mariann Sullivan: But I'm just saying

Jasmin Singer: Okay, well I'm glad, I'm glad I'm, I'm glad that of all of my attributes, that's what makes me heroic to you.

Uh, but I, anyway, so I am pathetic with the amount I can lift. I mean, it really, I'm, so, it says, it says on the app that my cardio age is 37, which is great 'cause I am my, you know, mid forties and, uh, but it says my weightlifting age is 60. Uh, and

Mariann Sullivan: But you know, the fact is you've never really been, you're not naturally strong.

Jasmin Singer: I'm not,

Mariann Sullivan: have

Jasmin Singer: but I, I have had muscle wasting, which is why I started to do this. You know, I'm a perimenopausal age. I've also had muscle wasting.

Mariann Sullivan: Nobody really cares.

Jasmin Singer: Okay, so I, so I decided to do this preliminary four session package with a trainer. And it was because I, uh, just don't really know what I'm doing. So I go to the gym yesterday to meet with him and, um, and I don't pay yet 'cause he's like, let's just see if we're a good fit.

And then, and then if you want, you could pay. Now, i'm going, this story is gonna start off absolutely horrible. I just want,

Mariann Sullivan: yet.

Jasmin Singer: it has, it just, it gets better.

Mariann Sullivan: to talk about. Jasmin

Jasmin Singer: Okay. Um, so, so he goes, so I, we were emailing to make the appointment and so he saw my signature in my email and, and he went to my website apparently, and he goes, so I see you're vegan.

And I'm thinking, oh man, like,

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Jasmin Singer: okay.

Mariann Sullivan: needs this?

Jasmin Singer: Right. And I was like, yes, I've been vegan for over 20 years. And he goes, yeah, it can be really hard to get. And I was like, are you gonna say protein? And and he was like, yeah, the like high quality protein. And I was like, well, and this is true. I actually have a protein tracker on my fridge.

Um, because I've recently been trying to increase the protein because of the aforementioned muscle wasting, which, which also goes with not having enough protein, which after 20 years of I see, I see. Okay. After 20 years of veganism, it's the first time it's an issue for me. And, uh, it doesn't have to do with being vegan.

It has to do with eating poorly while I was, while I was losing weight. And, uh, hence the muscle wasting. So it's something I've been trying to turn around and I have been doing a really good job of it. So I, I track my protein, I've significantly increased it. And um, so anyway, he was like, yeah, well, uh, you might wanna try and eat like an egg.

And I was like, I'm an animal rights vegan. No, it gets worse. It gets so much worse. I go, I'm an animal rights vegan. And he goes, I was too for five years. It made me suicidal.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh my God.

Jasmin Singer: And I am sitting there like,

Mariann Sullivan: Well,

Jasmin Singer: I just want you to know, I just want you to know that I don't like putting myself out there in this particular way all the time. Like I'm very shy about it, and I don't like conflict, and I don't like, like if someone's coming to me with curiosity, that's one thing. If someone's coming to me with like, you know, defensiveness, it's another thing. So I was like, uh, I, I co-run a animal rights organization. It's not happening. And he goes, but, but if you had a friend who had a chicken named Deborah, and I was like, oh, all of my friends who have chickens named Deborah. And I was like, honestly, do you really wanna go there?

Because those chickens come from the same hatcheries. And he goes, no, no, no. Your friend who takes really good ca And I was like. That's not scalable. I understand that everyone, everyone who has chickens does not treat the chicken the same. Like I get that there are better situations and worse situations, but this is not scalable and it's not something I would support plus, and you're gonna love this.

I go. Plus, those chickens are almost always killed and not kept as pets. They're killed when they stop producing eggs, which as a 45, nearly 46-year-old woman, I'm about to probably stop producing eggs and I hope someone doesn't kill me.

Mariann Sullivan: Nice touch!

Jasmin Singer: I live. I said that and, uh, and he like kind of stares at me and, and, and like didn't really get it.

And I'm like, oh man, this isn't gonna work. You know, I just wanted to learn how to lift some fucking weights. And so, uh, so he was like, well, alright. So that, that part of the conversation kind of, kind of ends and, um. And, you know, things got a little better from there, but I will tell you, there's another part of the story that I have to, uh, no, I'll tell you about it.

Uh, it's not animal, it's not vegan related at all. I have to tell you about it later. Remind me. But anyway, so this was the second time this week that something happened. I was meeting with a doctor and she was saying that, uh, that I, I have to have a procedure, and she was saying that most of the people who she works with who are vegan or vegetarian heal the slowest.

And some of her vegans will start eating meat for just a month in order to heal faster. And this was just a few days ago, and I go, yeah, well, I'm, I'm an again, I go, I'm an animal rights vegan. It's not happening. And you know, I have this theory that vegans actually heal faster. I'm a very tattooed person.

Mariann Sullivan: Well, you know, I mean there are other factors other than your diet that'll go into how fast you heal, but it's not sensical.

Jasmin Singer: I, I, I. And then she was like, well, you have to be getting at least a hundred grams of protein a day in, in, you know, a advance of this procedure. So I have been, I mean, and it's been.

Mariann Sullivan: Like that's fine.

Jasmin Singer: Um, but anyway, I guess it's just, the reason I wanted to bring that up is because A, we have, it's our podcast. We get to complain about things like this on it, and B, I think that this whole protein craze that's going on in the news is, is like exacerbating.

It's, it's like this, these conversations. I haven't had these conversations in my vegan journey, really. Like I thought people were over this. I thought that like we all knew where we got our protein.

Mariann Sullivan: It's all the rage.

Jasmin Singer: No, I know protein's all the rage, but like being dubious of a vegan getting their protein. Like what?

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Jasmin Singer: Anyway,

Mariann Sullivan: can we, uh.

Jasmin Singer: No, I just wanna say one more thing. Speaking of protein, I went to your house to like help you with something except I did nothing and Moore did it all. But, um, it smelled really good in your house because you had just made Juicy Marbles that vegan meat, which by the way, speaking of protein, it's like 36 grams of protein per serving.

And so I ate your,

I

Mariann Sullivan: had the guy on whose name I can't remember.

Jasmin Singer: you, you, you.

Mariann Sullivan: him. You weren't

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I know, but I ate, I ate it. I ate your lunch

Mariann Sullivan: Well, I

Jasmin Singer: and, yeah. Well, you told me I could eat it, so I ate. I have to say it was like the, the best vegan meat. I ha, I swear. I think it was the best I've ever had. It was amazing. Like I can't, I'm,

Mariann Sullivan: he, when,

Jasmin Singer: I still can't get over it. I really can't.

Mariann Sullivan: Vladimir Mićković,

Jasmin Singer: He should call his. He should call him. He should call himself Vladimir Faux-meat-ković

Mariann Sullivan: He is from Slovenia. They're from slo. Juicy Marbles people are from, from what?

Jasmin Singer: Vladimir Faux-meat-ković.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh God. So sorry I went back to find out what that was. All right. He, it was a great interview. It's very funny. In the middle of it, he reveals he is not vegan. Like

Jasmin Singer: God. Really?

Mariann Sullivan: Um,

Jasmin Singer: Oh Jesus.

Mariann Sullivan: know, he was one of those people who was mostly vegan, wanted to be vegan. Just, you know, I don't know, maybe he's vegan by now.

Jasmin Singer: Oh, definitely.

Mariann Sullivan: He was supposed to, he, like I mentioned I had never tried it. He's gonna send me samples and he never did. So I've been resisting buying it 'cause it ain't cheap. And you kind of have to

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: a lot because, you know, if you order it to, uh, be sent, um, you have to order a lot. So I finally got around to ordering it.

It's, it's outstanding. Really outstanding.

Jasmin Singer: it's insane. Like, I can't even ex And by the way, they're not sponsoring this episode or anything. Like,

Mariann Sullivan: I

Jasmin Singer: wish they were. Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: us money.

Jasmin Singer: yeah. Please send us money, but oh my God, it is a maze balls so good.

Mariann Sullivan: good stuff. All right,

Jasmin Singer: Ugh.

Mariann Sullivan: let's get, speaking of protein,

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: A segue. Let's talk about beans. So this article isn't at all about beans, but beans are in the headline. This is from, uh, Sentient Media by Seth Milstein. Where are the dietary guidelines for Americans and what's RFKs beef with beans?

Jasmin Singer: Hmm,

Mariann Sullivan: and, and, you know, RFK, you know, I won't go on. He's gonna, he's gonna run for president, mark my words. Um, and, uh, they're supposed to be doing the dietary guidelines, and I mean, they have to, by law, do the dietary guidelines. They have to come out every five years, and he promised they would be released before August.

It's now, August is now almost over. Um, they have not been released and, uh, now the, it may be, uh, at the end of October. And so they didn't like all they, they got... they got an advisor recommendations. This has been a long process and they have this advisory committee. Of course, the advisory committee was assembled during the Biden administration, so what are the chances they're gonna pay any attention to that?

And it had experts on it so you wouldn't wanna listen to them. And they, the, the report that they gave to in, in order to use to build the new dietary guidelines are, um, replacing red meat with plant-based protein. Specifically, to move beans, peas, and lentils, all of which are, you know, are now, um, classified as vegetables and that which they are, but move them into the protein food group 'cause they're vegetables that are extremely high in protein and, and to promote them as viable sources of protein. Because as we've established through your, through your story, nobody understands that there are plants that have proteins in in them, which is insane. And you know, the, the dietary guidelines, even though nobody ever looks at them, in our heads they're actually important. Because they, it's how, um, the National School Lunch Program and Snap devise their menus.

So we're talking about billions of dollars of federal money going into them. And, um, and one reason that they, you know, vegetable protein is so much better than animal protein. And one of the reasons they pointed out is that they contain fiber, where animal protein is coupled with saturated fat, vegetable protein is coupled with fiber. And Americans are unbelievably deficient in fiber, much more than they are deficient in protein.

But um, he, he's decided to totally disregard that report. He's gonna go from scratch. He said the last ones were way too long. 'cause there were over a hundred pages and it's gonna be four or five pages to keep it simple. Ignoring the fact that the last ones, yeah, they were long, but they had an executive summary at the beginning that was four or five pages that anybody could be then if you wanted to look at their sources and stuff.

But, you know, they wouldn't want us to look at their sources 'cause they get them from AI and half of them are hallucinated. Then, then, you know, there's the whole issue of ultra processed foods. And I don't even, I don't understand what they mean by ultra processed foods,

but

Jasmin Singer: It's purposefully, but.

Mariann Sullivan: of them are clearly not.

And what he, what he doesn't want in them are seed oils. There's absolutely nothing wrong with seed oil. Some people will disagree with me. Um, additives, dyes, fluoridated water, and ultra processed foods, which is this, this amorphous category that seems to hold things. And of course he thinks beef tallow is good for you, so should be fun.

Looking forward to what's going, um, going on there.

Jasmin Singer: Uh, do you think it, it's purposefully, it's purposefully made vague like that, and also that, so is the hyper processed food thing. I think that it's purposefully so that people just use that as a platitude.

Mariann Sullivan: Totally.

Jasmin Singer: God, I'm gonna have some beans today just to spite him.

Mariann Sullivan: Which I don't actually wanna talk about, is 11 Madison Park. I feel like we went on vacation. It happened while we were on vacation. That means we don't have to talk about it, except that rich people are assholes. They never meant anything by it anyway.

If you wanna listen, I mean, Earthling Ed did this whole video about it, how, you know, it was always meaningless and it was just, you know, they got attention by going plant based. Now they're getting attention by stopping going plant based.

Jasmin Singer: I don't, I mean, but I actually, I.

Mariann Sullivan: Who care what rich people eat?

Jasmin Singer: But I believe, I believed, I believed in Daniel Hum, the chef. Like I, I thought that he, I was, I think I'm very,

He never

Mariann Sullivan: talked about animals. That's the key.

Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: Talked about environmental stuff.

Jasmin Singer: Interesting. Yeah, that's a really good point.

Mariann Sullivan: Environmental arguments. They're spongy, I mean. They're not wrong. They're absolutely right. They're absolutely vital. But you know, you can make the argument that a little bit doesn't hurt.

Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: Whereas animals, you can't really make that argument like, you know, a little bit doesn't hurt as many animals.

Jasmin Singer: You know what? Just, I just thought of, uh, for the longest time, the whole time I've been vegan until recently, animals were like completely, that subject was verboten in environmental circles. And I do think that that's changing. I think animal agriculture is, is coming up more and more in environmental conversations.

However, I think that there's a really weird backlash related to that in that. It, it, it's coming up only within the context of environmental stuff, and, and it's not like the, it's not like the actual consciousness sentience, you know, feelings,

Mariann Sullivan: Reason I just said like the environmental arguments are not as strong for giving up, for giving it up completely It, and it.

Jasmin Singer: right.

Mariann Sullivan: itself much more to like systemic arguments. Like, like we all have to do it. And you know, one burger is not gonna like, like, it, it, it's just not as powerful an argument as the animal argument.

And so of course they don't like the animal argument.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: totally

Jasmin Singer: It's almost, it's almost like more of a reason to ignore that fact. It's like if you get someone in on environmental grounds, I wonder if they ever come around to the animal rights grounds. I mean, I don't know. Anyway, let's go on. 'cause that's just sad. And yeah, that whole. I'm so mad about 11 Madison.

Oh wait, like, lemme just tell you, I was watching this YouTube video about, um, the minimalist, uh, kind of the minimalist aesthetic that a lot of rich people, um, pur, you know, purport having. And it was, it was kind of going behind the scenes a little bit of it, and it was showing some of these like famous influencers that I've never heard of who they, they like pride themselves on that. Like the white living room with the, just the like two, two white couches facing each other. And they were like, this couch cost $500,000. And this one, you know, and then it showed like Gwyneth Paltrow in that recent lawsuit she was in, uh, and how she was, she had a minimalist aesthetic in the courtroom.

And all these people were like, Gwyneth Paltrow is seen with a minimal aesthetic. And they were like, her outfit costs like more than your house. Like quite literally. No, but my point is that you said rich people don't care. It, it feels exactly the same as saying rich people have a quote unquote minimalist aesthetic, but it's really just the, like exploitation of

Mariann Sullivan: say, I don't

Jasmin Singer: of a vibe.

Mariann Sullivan: it's necessarily true that rich people don't care. It's that I don't care what rich people do because they don't, I, they don't matter. I mean, they don't think straight. Their, their minds are addled by all the money they have. I mean, I seriously think that's true.

They don't think the same way the rest of us do and, and they're just not like... we need to change the way everybody eats, not just change the way rich people eat. And changing the way rich people eat is not gonna change anybody else.

Jasmin Singer: Okay.

Mariann Sullivan: I'm not even sure what I mean. And

Jasmin Singer: Were you more excited?

Mariann Sullivan: skip the next article, but I do wanna mention it because it's an article by Kenny Torella. About the ultra processed problem and the problems of using that term. And, and it's a really fascinating article about the completely different approaches that Beyond Beef and Impossible are taking to the fact that they've been attacked so vehemently on the ultra processed nonsense. And, and I think it's exciting. You know, this article sort of positions it as maybe, uh, which one is gonna win? I hope they both win because Beyond Beef is going to a very, um, uh, very super healthy, you know, getting by the, the attacks men, like very few ingredients and, and kind of according to this, this one product Beyond Ground is, Isn't meant to directly imitate meat. It has a neutral flavor that serves as a blank canvas. So I think it's just supposed to mean to be a healthy protein and, and Impossible is going all in on, you know, meat, indulgent, uh, all of that. So I hope, I think there's place for both of them and I hope they both win because so far they've been so, remember when they were our heroes?

Well, they're still my heroes, but geez.

Jasmin Singer: I was your hero 'cause of going to the gym. 'cause you said I was your hero like 20 minutes ago. 'cause of going to the gym.

Mariann Sullivan: listening.

Jasmin Singer: Alright, let me ask you something. Were you more excited when 11 Madison went fully plant-based or when Burger King started serving Impossible?

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, Burger King. Definitely.

Jasmin Singer: Okay.

Mariann Sullivan: King. I mean, I, it just meant more to me personally. It was a, you know, I didn't picture myself ever going to 11 Madison.

Jasmin Singer: You cried when you ate your first Burger King Whopper.

Mariann Sullivan: yeah.

Jasmin Singer: That's so cute. All right, where are we? I got lost. I was thinking about.

Mariann Sullivan: uh, there was just one additional article that I found that I thought was really interesting, um, on this same topic,

Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: from Watt Agnet, which is a, um, industry site chicken, uh, industry site. Beyond Meat now, just Beyond what it means for poultry. Of course, the refers to the fact that Beyond Meat is also changing its name to just Beyond, you know, I guess.

Jasmin Singer: HBO max,

Mariann Sullivan: that it's

Jasmin Singer: HBO max.

Mariann Sullivan: about being the other thing and then meat, it's talking about being a whole new food product.

Jasmin Singer: HBO Max changed to HBO and then back to HBO Max. So maybe it'll change back. Maybe that's the whole new thing about marketing.

Mariann Sullivan: How much does the person who planned that get paid?

Jasmin Singer: Oh, I hope a lot because I think they're genius. 'cause it's all over the news. Yeah, because it's the stupidest thing in the world and they're all over the news for it.

Mariann Sullivan: Because I, I, I thought I didn't have HBO for a long time because it was called Max.

Jasmin Singer: That's a, that's hilarious.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, it's kind of me. All right. So this article, she's all excited because she thinks that the move to, um, clean and functional nutrition is going to benefit, um, chicken.

Jasmin Singer: Excuse me.

Mariann Sullivan: And this is my pet peeve, it drives me crazy.

She's talking about no matter how many, how few ingredients they manage to put into whatever their products are, chicken only has one ingredient, and that's the chicken. Which is, it just drives me crazy that they are able to care like this number of ingredients things. And as you know, I consider chicken and all other animal products to be processed foods because they are vegetable matter processed through the body of the animal to add saturated fat and other like poisons.

And,

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: but you know, they're the ones who I, I'm the one who comes up with the clever argument, in my opinion anyway, and they're the ones who win. Uh, chicken. It's the best on climate too. They've got a lot of stuff going for them, aside from the fact that their business is evil, beyond even the ability of any of us to imagine.

Jasmin Singer: I don't think that they're the ones that win, because I don't think the battle's over yet.

Mariann Sullivan: I don't either. I don't either. I'm worried that, you know, I'm worried.

The battle's not over, but there are a lot of casualties.

Jasmin Singer: There really are. There are. Where are we?

Mariann Sullivan: next?

Jasmin Singer: I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

Mariann Sullivan: I love this article. Or am I going to things too fast?

Jasmin Singer: No, I just am not caffeinated enough for life in general.

Mariann Sullivan: Uh, this is an article from some, some outfit called IFL Science. It's, you know, science channel blog. Your Excuses for Eating Meat are Predictable and Wrong study finds, and this is about this study that was done in Denmark. Um, and the, this, the article and the study takes absolutely the position that eating too much meat is bad for you, bad for the environment, and fatal for the animals involved.

So they cover all of the problems. So what they're talking about is the question that we ask all the time. So. Why do people continue to participate in this? Um, and, and they follow, they did this elaborate study they followed these, all these focus groups. Um, this was in Denmark, uh, I think I mentioned.

And, it just has to do with human nature and how fucked up humans are. And they, they, people know it, it's not that people don't have this information. They really do know it. They probably know it better in Denmark than they do here. Um, but they, they said that the knowledge could be problematized.

So people immediately set out to problematize. As they say, you've no doubt seen this tactic in the wild. It's what's happening when everyone, anyone tells a vegan about the environmental cost of avocados or meat substitutes like soy, or points to the supposed necessity of meat in the human diet. And because they're with each other, they confirm each other that these things are true. It doesn't matter at all to them that, that vegans don't eat more avocados than they do, um, or more processed products than they do. It. They just need something to say and to say to each other.

It's just truthful enough, the article says, with the details just obscure enough that for someone already looking for excuses for their meat consumption, it can be elevated to a fact on equal footing with years of scientific research behind it. Uh, so it's not that people don't know, it's that people are able to come up with excuses to do what they wanna do, especially when they're in a group. And, and, uh, if you're there and you're managing to counter their argument, the next step that they'll take is to just divert the conversation and talk about something else completely. I know you have all experienced this, like food waste or plastic, some other food related, uh topic like packaging and, everybody else who's there will totally agree how important this is.

And all of a sudden the conversation isn't about animals anymore at all.

Jasmin Singer: So what do we do about that?

Mariann Sullivan: sorry.

Jasmin Singer: Well, no, you were about to get into it. What do we do about that? I mean, so I, I feel.

Mariann Sullivan: The answer they have is that, is that it has to come from leadership, from, from politicians and authorities. Well, maybe that's gonna happen in Denmark, but. I think we have to show leadership ourselves because our leaders are not doing a great job. But,

So this was both a very frustrating, um, article, but also like, just really, really nailed a, a lot of the, just these, these tricks that humans have to not face truths that they don't like.

Jasmin Singer: I just don't understand why we are making such huge advances with things like ai, which might be the end of humanity, but we can't figure out how to navigate around the thought process of people who continue to back up their unethical, immoral decisions that don't even reflect their own worldview. I just truly don't understand why. I feel like we're watching things go down the toilet. You know, like we're watching, we're watching the flush in like slow motion, and we're like, oh look, it's, it's all going, it's all going down the drain.

And we, we haven't yet figured out how to, how to fix it. That's where I'm at today. Uh, just call me Mariann.

Mariann Sullivan: It's a dark place. I think we all spend too much time in dark places, but what else are you gonna do?

Jasmin Singer: So do you have any good news for us?

Mariann Sullivan: Uh, yeah. One about your old hometown, west Hollywood.

Jasmin Singer: Oh.

Mariann Sullivan: They, they're again at the forefront. They were the first city to do all sorts of positive things.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, the cat declawing. Banning that, banning fur. Um, banning foie gras like all of this. I mean, some of it was just obviously, just to make a point because there's not gonna be foie gras in in West Hollywood. Or f much fur 'cause it's hot out. But it's still like a very important to have a city like that, making strides like that.

Mariann Sullivan: Well, once one, one study does it, it's very much, it's a whole lot easier for campaigners in other cities to do

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: This time they've unanim the, the council has unanimously voted to ban the sale of animals. And of course, dogs and cats, I mean, a lot of communities have done that, but West Hollywood, all of them. The birds, the fish, the, uh, I think it's a really important step too, because that separating out dogs and cats as the special animals we care about. Um, I really like that they're just banning it all. So, yay.

Jasmin Singer: That's fantastic. I love it. I have, WeHo pride, baby. That's so great. Any other, any other good news here in the, in the world of animal rights?

Mariann Sullivan: Nearly a quarter of consumers, and this was a worldwide study. I don't know how they did it. It's probably a little bit of, uh, bullshit. But, um, identify as meat reducers or flexitarians. This is really important.

A growing number of people are cutting back on meat or think they should cut back on meat. I think this, this, this is just a starting conversation I think that we need to be having about how animal, well, I mean, not that we haven't had it before, but how, how we most effectively confront the issue of people who wanna cut back on the amount of meat they're eating in a way that is fair to animals.

Uh, because of course it makes no sense to us. And among the reasons that people do this is because they care about animals. Apparently they care about some of them, not the rest of them. I don't, it's so illogical that we can't, we have trouble making sense of it and, you know, it's all or nothing. And that's how I feel.

It's all or nothing. And it's all, uh, get rid of all of it. Uh. But that's not how it's going. And this is a trend that we need to, uh, pay attention to. There are other signs of this. There's this campaign going on in Denver. Um, the mayor of Denver has put out a new marketing blitz um, telling people to eat less meat. It's in Denver too, like in the west. The ag community is going insane. They don't, they hate this. And if they hate something, that is a sign that it is a really good idea and, and, and, uh, this is work, you know, that they fear this. The whole idea that we should eat less meat. And for some, somehow that works with people, of course, for the environmental reasons.

You know, that's a very powerful argument for eating less meat. Um, but for the animal reasons as well, and also relate to this, I, I just saw this on Plant-based News, Oscar Meyer debuts pack of plant-based and animal-based hot dogs for every bun. It's one package, and in one package they have both plant-based.

Jasmin Singer: What?

Mariann Sullivan: And, and animal based, and they're separated, so they don't like, touch each other. I think, um, like exactly. We're all like, what?

Jasmin Singer: What?

Mariann Sullivan: But you know, either some people in the family prefer plant-based and some people prefer meat-based, or sometimes you wanna plant-based and sometimes you, I don't know, like I, it doesn't make sense to me.

Jasmin Singer: Well then

Mariann Sullivan: it's

Jasmin Singer: I, I mean, I, but you know, that something like that was a decision that was made after like a lot of market research.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, absolutely.

Oscar Meyer. They're huge.

Jasmin Singer: Oh, I wish I were an Oscar Meyer vegan wiener.

Mariann Sullivan: We have to like both understand more about and work on our communication. Um. And in that context, I really wanted to talk about this story by Kenny Torella in, um, in

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, this was,

Mariann Sullivan: An Unorthodox Idea for Solving One of The World's Most Underrated Problems, the wonky math of meat offsets.

And we have, I mean, I've heard of this organization before, it's called Farm Kind.

Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: And they've been, you know, fairly successful. And what they do is they, they've created the equivalent of carbon offsets, but for meat eating. So when people eat meat or not when they eat meat, people can donate a certain amount every month in order to offset the problems they caused by eating meat and like at first what it's like. Oh my God.

Jasmin Singer: Or you could go vegan.

Mariann Sullivan: That's just disgusting. But then, um, I mean the article goes into this in depth, but at the same time it's quite successful and animal groups can really use the money because, you know, they're tiny and the world is big and they can really use the money and this is raising a lot of money.

Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: and

Jasmin Singer: But is it.

Mariann Sullivan: started.

Jasmin Singer: I mean, I read the article, so I know it addresses this, but the first question that comes to my mind is, do people use this as an excuse to not go vegan?

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, of course there is then the other side of like, they probably weren't going to, there's no evidence to show that we were gonna go vegan anyway.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: But it's

Jasmin Singer: I, it's very disturbing. That doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Uh, I, I'm very torn and I think that's the point. I could see asking for this for like a gift, you know, for, for like, you know, my, my meat eating brother who lives in Kansas. Like, not, not that this wouldn't be within his budget, but like pretending it was, Hey Jeremy, can you support this initiative for the next year as my birthday gift?

Mariann Sullivan: I think he might.

Jasmin Singer: Do too. I do too. And he would not go vegan. I will tell you, he would not go vegan.

Mariann Sullivan: Right. But I think that as with any, I mean, I don't even know how to feel about this.

Jasmin Singer: It's like Jeffrey Epstein donating to like, you know, anti-trafficking initiatives.

Mariann Sullivan: Exactly. That's exactly right. I always liken, um, it to child pornography, like the whole, the whole question of is there any worth in, in going vegan? Like, you know, if you stop buying child pornography, it's not gonna stop child pornography. Uh, but we still think that people should stop because it's immoral.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: If everybody stopped, it would end child pornography. I think it, it, to me, it's the most similar issue. I know it's not exactly comparable. But, but

Jasmin Singer: No, there's a lot of similarities.

Mariann Sullivan: We can't think like this, that's the problem. We don't know how to think like this. 'cause people are crazy and we're not. That's the only solution I can come up with people, people can't think their way out of a paper bag. Um, but if we are going to, if we were going to support this, I think one of the most important things would be messaging, you know, as with it's like me, same thing with humane reforms. The vegan movement got so stuck on not being able to support humane reforms for a long time, and finally trying to, you know, the, the tension still goes on, but part of the reason it moved forward on that was on messaging. Never saying it's therefore okay to eat animals just because these humane reforms were put in. Um, never saying it makes it fine. And the same would be do I think here, I I don't think you could ever say that this is a license, um, a moral license, which is, you know, of course the, the argument that is made in opposition to it, um, to, to eat meat.

We should never say that, even though people will take it that way. It's just, you know. You shouldn't do this, but if you, if you're gonna do it, this is one way to like make up for a tiny bit of the harm you're doing. Something like that.

Which is not compelling messaging. I mean, that's the problem. You know, you want messaging to be compelling.

Jasmin Singer: I love, I think this article is fascinating and.

Mariann Sullivan: Good, so many interesting news items going on. I think the whole concept of how we deal with, uh, people cutting down, people like doing penance, if that's what this is. Uh, these are all new ideas within animal activism or, you know, new ways of thinking about perhaps some old ideas.

So.

Jasmin Singer: I am glad about that. Honestly, that is refreshing. I don't know how to think about some of this stuff, and I think that is perfectly fine. If there was a sort of binary way of thinking about it. It probably wouldn't create change, so I'm here for it. Alright. Uh, was there anything else that you wanna talk about?

Any books or anything like that, that you have on your books and your ever growing pile?

Mariann Sullivan: The plan is to interview Carol Smithers about her book Rethinking Rescue in the near future. So if anybody is interested and wants to, the book looks great. I haven't read it yet. Um, if you wanna read it before the interview, I would suggest that.

Of course last week, was it last week I interviewed? Yeah. Will Potter. Um, and his, I would highly recommend his book, Little Red Barns. And of course, if you're a Flock member, you should have gotten his reading from the book in your email on Monday. And, uh.

Jasmin Singer: That. It's a great interview. Really amazing book.

Mariann Sullivan: A really, a really moving interview. Tomorrow's interview is the August Animal Law Podcast, uh, with Christopher Berry of the Non-Human Rights Project. We'll be talking about this kind of obscure little case from Brooklyn, Brooklyn Trial Court, and which, you know, could really change the whole way the law works, uh, when it comes to why can't you sue anybody when somebody like harms or kills your companion animal?

Like, what is that all about? Like how can the law have created this enormous, enormous injustice which people don't even know exists? I, I would say when I teach animal law, I usually start with this issue, and one of the reasons I start with it is because it shocks people so much. So it's, it goes beyond, I think this issue really goes beyond just, you know, the fact that we value our dogs and cats, into how do, how do we see animals that we would totally leave them out of even this aspect of justice, which affects people so much.

Jasmin Singer: Amazing. Well, I'm fascinated by that too. I think there's like a little, a lot of really interesting fodder coming out of our here channel on Our Hen House, our channel being on YouTube. And on all of the places where you can listen to podcasts. So make sure if you're listening to this or watching this, you leave a comment or a review.

You like this episode. It really does help us, by the way.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh yeah.

Jasmin Singer: so it, it really, really does. When people say things like that, just know it's important. Like if an author says, can you leave a review on Amazon? Do it. Because it, it really significantly helps. Uh, and just like that example, even if you didn't buy someone's book on Amazon, it helps to leave the review on Amazon.

Even if you're not watching this on YouTube or listening to this on YouTube. It would really help us if you liked the episode and subscribed to us on YouTube. So thank you so much, and thanks to Vicki Beachler and Jen Reilly. So we'll see you soon. Our new episode as Mariann talked about the Animal Law Podcast coming up tomorrow, and we'll be back very, very soon with more from Our Hen House.

Bye.