The Hen Report: “You ok?” | Animal Rights in Challenging Political Times

Jasmin Singer: Wow. Like there's so much in that sentence today. You okay?

Mariann Sullivan: I was trying, I was trying to

Jasmin Singer: No, no,

Mariann Sullivan: sound positive. This is Mariann Sullivan.

Jasmin Singer: This is Mariann Sullivan. And you're eyes were

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. I, I am not,

Jasmin Singer: like, help me.

Mariann Sullivan: I'm not a good actor.

Jasmin Singer: You're such a good actor!

Mariann Sullivan: Well, it is a very, it has been a very tough week for everybody. Everybody in this country, I would say. Being the United States of America, and probably a lot of people not in this country, because they all have their own problems, as we all know. We tend to think that our problems are the big problems and not pay attention to other people's.

But let's face it, what's going on in our country right now is bad news for everybody and it, it got big this week. It's just like been exhausting. I don't know. Doesn't everybody feel like that? Oh, also, I, I stopped drinking caffeine yesterday. Yeah.

Jasmin Singer: Hold on.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Jasmin Singer: I did not know that

Mariann Sullivan: That could be, that could be the entire thing.

Jasmin Singer: I would have cancelled Our Hen House for at least two weeks. Why did you do that?

Mariann Sullivan: Well, I, I don't know, like, like, I don't wanna go into all the reasons, but it seems like the healthy thing to do. Well, not caffeine totally, because I'm gonna try to have green tea because they say that's good for you. Um, but I, I just felt like maybe, maybe I shouldn't be drinking coffee. I don't know. I'm just fooling with it.

I don't have terror. I don't have a huge caffeine addiction. I, but I do usually have two cups of coffee in the morning and, and, uh, and I stopped yesterday. I don't have any headache. But yeah, my energy's, my energy's been better. And my energy as, as we all know, even at the best of times, is not exactly what one would call dynamic.

You

Jasmin Singer: I know, I feel like I am in a constant threat of gaslighting myself about like, whether I'll just stop doing something that's good for me. Like, like if, like if I stop running or something.

Mariann Sullivan: Is that the proper use of the term gaslighting?

Jasmin Singer: No. I'm taking poetic license.

Mariann Sullivan: All right. As long as you're acknowledging that.

Jasmin Singer: I'm taking poetic license. I don't actually think it's possible

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Well that, but that term is very special and means a very specific thing, and I don't think we should mess with it, but, you know, but

Jasmin Singer: know what

Mariann Sullivan: lying you, you actually mean lying to yourself.

Jasmin Singer: it's, it's like PTSD based, I think. Like fake P. Fake P-T-S-D-F-P-T-S-D. Like if I'm, you know, I try and

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, let's not claim we have PTSD. That's like,

Jasmin Singer: a week, and like if one day I don't, I'm pretty sure I'll just never run again. Or if

Mariann Sullivan: oh yeah. I mean, sure. Everybody, everybody does that sort of thing. You try to form a good habit and, and then, and then there's that scary thing. If you break it once, that's it. It's over. Which frequently is the case, which is why we have that fear.

Jasmin Singer: just, but I think so much of my mental energy when it's not focused on the shit show that is the United States of America, or you know, the shit show that is animal exploitation is being

Mariann Sullivan: I don't think we should. I mean, there are many good things in the United States of America. I mean, there are some problems as well, but I, I wouldn't equi

Jasmin Singer: Right?

Mariann Sullivan: it equivocal to the shit show of animal agriculture, which is truly like a shit show from beginning to end, both literally and figuratively.

Jasmin Singer: not focused on those things, I tend to be focused on like not dropping a ball. You know, just whether like everything has to be constantly being juggled.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I think that's one of the ways we all distract ourselves. I think you might do it a little bit, you, you, you really try to keep a lot of balls in the air. And it does distract us from, you know, big, the existential stuff.

Jasmin Singer: So I was, uh, MCing this gala last week on Friday. I the Goodwill of the Finger Lakes gala.

Mariann Sullivan: I, I missed it. I, I admit. So tell us what happened.

Jasmin Singer: well, I love Goodwill as an organization. Like I just love the work they do for textile recycling, but also community engagement and a very, uh, you know, basic level, I find it fun to like have something in my life that I support, that I can also like, enjoy doing on a Saturday afternoon.

Mariann Sullivan: Can, can I just say one thing? Like, I love Goodwill too, but I think there a lot of their stuff is overpriced, especially their housewares.

Jasmin Singer: you

Mariann Sullivan: I mean, this is supposed to be for, I mean, you, you could, you could buy cheap housewares at at Walmart. Like it, it's not like these things are really expensive. These are some, I think the houseware stuff, which I look at a lot because I get sick of looking at clothes and I'm in the store with you, and then I have to look at something else.

No, they're meant for people who were kind of broke. It should be cheaper. It's my opinion.

Jasmin Singer: It keeps it out of a landfill. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I go to the bins, which is the clearance center where it's by weight and that's, you can't get cheaper than that unless it's free.

Mariann Sullivan: No, no. I'm not talking about the bins.

Jasmin Singer: But anyway, so I, uh, I really had a great time. The funny thing is that during my mc speech, I kept making these like vegan references, like I was talking about, uh, the bins and how it's one of the two places in Rochester where you can get things by the pound.

And I was like, does anyone know what the other one is? I said, the vegan butcher Grass Fed. But sequence does

Mariann Sullivan: Oh good. Good little plug.

Jasmin Singer: does not sizzle up as well as chickpea brisket. You know, like I just kept trying to get in the little vegan things.

Mariann Sullivan: That you, you always do that. I think it's great.

Jasmin Singer: the anno, the, the annoying thing is that I had made sure that there would be vegan food there, and I asked so many times, and unfortunately the vegan food was like fruit. Like fruit and crudites.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Sad.

Jasmin Singer: honest, there wasn't much food.

Mariann Sullivan: It was healthy.

Jasmin Singer: Um, yeah, I'm But that was, that was sad. Uh, but I did, I, I brought up veganism with like repeatedly within the scope of talking about my care of the issue that we to celebrate and champion.

Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: Good job. I'm sure they all became vegan.

Jasmin Singer: what Michael Dorf would say about that, given our conversation last week about how sometimes conflating issues is not necessarily a beneficial thing.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, I, I, I think I, I think that's different. I, I, I think that express, like just talking about how there are analogies for you between issues is a way of, of introducing the issue, insisting that everybody like, like, like has to be on the same page about everything.

Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: Um, or, you know, they're not truly, like, you're not truly vegan unless you're on, on also thrifting, like, doing something like that.

Um, putting a lot of, of, of barriers up. I think that's problematic, but just expressing like, as a way of expressing that, that these things are related for you. I think that's positive.

Jasmin Singer: I wanna give one little tip before we move on, uh, which is that I've recently been shopping at the Goodwill Online, so it's Shop Goodwill is the

Mariann Sullivan: Oh my God. Like you are, like,

Jasmin Singer: But it's mostly presents I'm getting for people

Mariann Sullivan: you're on a roll. Oh, good. That's something to look forward to.

Jasmin Singer: Excuse me. It is. That sounded sarcastic, but it it is. You just wait. You just

Mariann Sullivan: I,

Jasmin Singer: But, uh, but,

Mariann Sullivan: I, I, I'm already waiting.

Jasmin Singer: Any case, uh, so I just wanted to give people a tip. If they're shopping, so Shop Goodwill, the website, if you type in vegan. All of this vegan leather stuff comes up and I got a vegan leather jacket from Abercrombie and Fitch, uh, that is retail at like $120 resale, and I got it for $11.

And there's so many things like that. So I just.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh wow. Is a really good deal.

Jasmin Singer: It's like an auction, so you make a bid, but there's so many

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Like eBay.

Jasmin Singer: but there's so many things on it that there's no way people are seeing all of them. Anyway. I recommend it. So that's my tip of the day that nobody asked for.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. All right. But we've already established that thrifting and veganism while related for you, are not the same thing. So it may not be interesting to everybody who's listening, so let's just, uh.

Jasmin Singer: Okay.

Mariann Sullivan: Let's talk a little bit about our podcasts. I think that we, we, we should mention that, um, Rising Anxieties, which I do all on my own, all, all on my lonesome, just me and the camera, so I could use some company, comes out on Tuesdays.

This, The Hen Report comes out on Thursday. Those long form interview on Fridays and bonus for flock members comes out on Monday. Of course, if you wanna be a flock member, we would really love that. And of course, uh, you know, as we keep saying we're on YouTube, so like and subscribe everywhere you can because it really helps 'cause you know, it's sad 'cause I go on YouTube and everybody else I watch has 10 million, 10 million likes and we're like all excited.

Oh, we, we have 50, 50 people watched it, which is exciting. We appreciate every single one of you 50 people like so much. But you know, it wouldn't be nice to see

Jasmin Singer: It's only because we're just on YouTube newly, like we get, we get

Mariann Sullivan: Hmm.

Jasmin Singer: like 10,000 downloads a month on uh, podcast apps, but that's audio.

Mariann Sullivan: No, I know the podcast, but you know, I mean, I go on YouTube as you know, more than one should, and, and that's what I see. And 50 is good. If I give a speech tomorrow in front of 50 people, like that would be amazing. But, um, but yeah, whatever.

Jasmin Singer: move.

Mariann Sullivan: Let's, let's move on. Let's move on.

Jasmin Singer: What do you wanna chat about today?

Mariann Sullivan: Uh, I mean, I just thought we were talking before we started about what we should talk about.

We couldn't think of much of anything, but I do, I think the reason I can't think of much of anything is because what's going on in the, in the country and um, in the world is just so bad. But I do think we should give a nod to it and to the fact that people out there are probably discombobulated. Um, 'cause I am.

And, and this is horrible. What we're living through is just, just really ugly, and I am, I, I'm sure that everybody shares that. I do try to hang on to the idea that we're in a time of change and, and, and we live in awareness of horror, of things that are happening that are horrible, just absolutely awful all the time, unlike the rest of the world.

And so, you know, there are these moments in history where like sudden shifts happen. Like time, things don't change necessarily linearly. And we should never forget the animals and try to try to bring. If people actually saw the world the way that animal rights activists see the world, like many things would change.

I'm not saying everything would be perfect. We're not perfect. They're not perfect. But, but so much of this would be different if, if people, if people valued, uh, the consciousness and life the way that animal activists do and saw the reality of, of everything that's going on in the world, and some of which we can fix, some of which we can't, that would become so much more their focus than, than so many of the political divides.

And I also, as you know, as, as we always say, this is not a, not an issue that... i'm not saying everybody feels the same way about it, but it doesn't break along any of the traditional political lines. Um, you just can't make it. 'cause there are people all over the place, um, politically who get it about animals.

I've always said, if you drop me down, um, parachuted me into anywhere in the world, which please don't do, I'd probably die. But if I didn't die, there would be some people there who get it about animals. I mean, there just would. Like, we're everywhere. And right now the only people who really see it are the people who are like us who for some reason like can see beyond all of the cultural stuff that tells you this is not important. And, but there's more and more of us. You know, it's ti still tiny, but there's more and more of us. And I think everybody's capable. Not everybody I, I, I shouldn't exaggerate, but I think really a lot of people are capable of it.

You know? I mean, like, I'm trying to express what it is that's, that's different. But, uh, we all know that this changes the way you see the world. Because, 'cause it changed us.

Jasmin Singer: With everything that's going on right now in the news in, in the us where do animals fit in for you? Like does it become like you have a finite amount of energy and mental space and emotional capacity to handle everything? Or is it, is it a, a giant in infinite hole, that you can continue to put everything in?

I mean, like, what, how, how do you.

Mariann Sullivan: I didn't, I did not

Jasmin Singer: How do you continue to focus on animal issues when you're

Mariann Sullivan: Well, because they're all, I mean, like, that's what the, like that's my passion in life. I mean, that's what I care about. I'm not gonna just, just because there are other things going on. I mean, there are always other things going on. And also I just see them all as the same thing.

It's, it's, it's. You know, this, uh, should we call it live and let live?

Jasmin Singer: mm-hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: I, I obviously didn't invent that, but it's kind of my philosophy, like, like if we could all just enter into a little bit more of a live and let live philosophy for all conscious beings. And so it's all the same thing to me. I don't know, sort of isn't it for you?

Jasmin Singer: Absolutely. I mean, it's, it's who I am and it's, it's it. My, my veganism,

Mariann Sullivan: It's not separate.

Jasmin Singer: ethos is how I relate to the world. Regardless of whether we're talking about animals or Goodwill or or the news, it's how I relate to the

Mariann Sullivan: Exactly.

Jasmin Singer: What has been going on this week in the world of animal rights?

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, really important stuff and easy to overlook it when other, uh, when other things are happening. But the really, really big thing, and I'm not sure there's that much for us to say about it, 'cause we've already talked about it a lot, but is Zoe Rosenberg's trial began and um, it's something that I think everybody in this movement, many of us, are extremely concerned and, and, and taken up with it. And if you aren't, you should be because it's really important. And so, uh, Zoe's been on the podcast, I think couple of times. And, um, she is, uh, of course, I mean I'm sure most of you are familiar with the case. She's 23. She's been charged with felony conspiracy and three misdemeanors for rescuing four chickens from Purdue's, Petaluma Poultry slaughterhouse, and, um.

She's got great representation and this is one of those, one of those legal events that is really going to, um, you know, as, as many of Direct Action Everywhere's, uh, cases have is, is, is, is gonna get to the real issues. Like what, what can the law allow us to do when we see an animal who is suffering horrifically? Um, is it, is, it just, is everything is the only legal relationship to animals, property rights?

It's clearly not. We have actual laws that protect animals, even from people who quote unquote own them. So clearly not. So where does, where does the law lie when, when somebody sees animals who are suffering, who don't belong to them, can they rescue them? Can they save them? And if the answer to that is no, you know, there's just something very, very wrong and we all know it.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: it makes me insane. And, you know, Zoe is just like a heroic figure and the perfect representative, um, to bring this message.

Jasmin Singer: I wonder how much this will also shift, if at all, the court of public opinion with those broader questions that this kind of a trial brings up. Like, Not only the legal status, but what does it say about our food system when rescuing a sick bird is treated as more serious than letting that bird, I don't know, waste away in a warehouse?

Like wh how, how does the element of this social shifts?

Mariann Sullivan: I mean, I think that that was the whole goal, um, in, in di and you know, I don't wanna speak for other people, so I'm just, these are my own thoughts about what has been going on with Direct Action Everywhere. And Wayne Hsiung's thought, you know, in his role in founding it and you know, of course the other people, um, who were involved in it.

Um. Their role in, in, in strategizing has always been that. This by, by doing these rescues and making the story of a human who, who, who acted in this way to save animals is a way to get that public attention. And once you have the public attention, we know that once people see it, they hate it. Uh, but you know, I would say by and large it hasn't worked.

I think that they probably expect it to be able to get much more attention and there's just it, it hasn't been nothing. Uh, but it, it's not as big as it should be. This should be huge news and it's not, you know, it's just not, I mean, it's gotten some articles and you know, the Times covered it a bit when Wayne Hsiung was on trial and so there's not been nothing, but we still have not found that way to break through, uh, into.

And to being able to tell people stuff that they really sh wanna know. They should know. I don't know whether they wanna know it, they don't wanna know it, but they should know about the food they eat and about the lives they live. But, uh, but. The forces, the forces opposed to it are, are great. So anything that anybody can do to bring attention to these, to these trials, I think is important.

But it's still on us. It's still on animal rights activists, and there's more of us than there used to be. And they're more effective than they used to be. But it's still on us. Uh,

Jasmin Singer: we,

Mariann Sullivan: I don't wanna, I don't wanna get everybody depressed.

Jasmin Singer: I mean, you know, like the truth is,

Mariann Sullivan: No, we don't. We have to keep plugging and then all of a sudden it happens.

Jasmin Singer: assume that the work that that's being done now is going to lead to change, even if it's not immediate. I mean, even if it's not happening in real time, even if it's not, you know, in our lifetime

Mariann Sullivan: you have to assume that 'cause what else are you gonna do?

Jasmin Singer: and I just

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah,

Jasmin Singer: of, or

Mariann Sullivan: I.

Jasmin Singer: the street neighbor Susan B.

Anthony, who's buried across the street who did not live to see. have the right to vote, you know? And, and she had to believe too,

Mariann Sullivan: Absolutely. I, I mean, absolutely agree with that. The work must continue,

Jasmin Singer: let's.

Mariann Sullivan: I think there was hope that these trials would gain more traction than they have, and maybe they still will. I mean, because they are like, they're these dramatic stories of these heroic young people who are risking their lives and their freedom to save these animals who are suffering horrifically.

Like, like why is that not, not, not important? It's not important because, you know, the, the, the e the powers, uh, in opposition are very, very strong. And people I guess don't wanna hear, still don't wanna hear it, but I think we're getting closer. I do. I think we're getting closer. It's just that every time you want it to be big,

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: because we kind of know, I mean, and this is the reason it's not bigger.

We kind of know that once you really pay attention to what's going on. It's really bad. It's really, really bad. So they don't want people to pay attention. Oh, well I, you've got me like ruminating today, like on and on. Like I'm sick of listening to myself.

Jasmin Singer: In Columbia, a centuries old tradition has come to an end. The country's.

Mariann Sullivan: bull fighting.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, the country's constitutional court has issued a sweeping ban on bull fighting and other violent spectacles involving animals, uh, like cock fighting, and other ones as well.

It was, this was an, a unanimous ruling. I think. The justices called these events, acts of animal abuse. This is good news.

Mariann Sullivan: It's, it's super good news. I mean, it's really emblematic of the fact that a lot has been going on in Latin America that, uh. you know is really exciting and there seems to be real recognition. Uh, so yeah, this is, these are strong traditional activities and they have been banned and, you know, a lot of, a lot of, a lot of long term work, uh, on the part of activists.

I think they, they got it through the Congress first and then it went through the courts. I don't know exactly how the Columbian legal system works, but it says here, um, the victory of the animal rights activist was achieved after 14 failed attempts. So there you go. There you go. That says it all. Keep trying.

Jasmin Singer: I love when, you know, for lack of a better word, compassion and, and dignity stands at the center of tradition. And it just, it, this is so key to what so many animal activists hear all the time. Like, oh, I couldn't go vegan because my mother makes this brisket. Or on, you know, the holidays or whatever. uh, you know, we're starting to replace these exploitative traditions with the vegan versions of them, or the versions that zone involve an animal suffering at the center of the plate or the ring. So I love that story and I think, like you said, this does say everything, doesn't it? What else do

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Jasmin Singer: I'm looking at our

Mariann Sullivan: Alright. Well, I, I, I found this, um, post from Lady Free Thinker who was on, I can't remember her real name. She was on the podcast not.

Jasmin Singer: Nina Jackal.

Mariann Sullivan: And right. And it, it says Stop plans to build research, primate housing facility in Texas. And this is about, um, Charles River Laboratories, the notorious, notorious Charles River Laboratories.

And there were attempting to set up a facility in Brazoria, Texas, and people were really opposed to it. And the county commissioners voted against it. They didn't want it there. Um, but apparently they didn't have the final say that led that, that was with the state and federal regulators. And so they were, they had to continue to fight and, and then the end of this story is update.

Charles River Laboratories dropped its plans to build the facility.

Jasmin Singer: Wow,

Mariann Sullivan: Nice.

Jasmin Singer: great. I,

Mariann Sullivan: Really nice. Good, good work people.

Jasmin Singer: this debate over animal testing, this is really shifting. I mean, this has been shifting.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah.

Jasmin Singer: In, in huge ways just this year, uh, let alone since we started doing Our Hen House over the last 16 years. And, uh, you know, this is one of those things that the answer is coming more and more from state regulators, but also, um, just

Mariann Sullivan: I don't think this was from, to be fair, I don't think, I'm not sure the Texas, the state regulators did anything. I think it was just, from what I can tell from this article, people just spoke out so much that they kind of said, yeah, maybe we shouldn't put our facility there.

Jasmin Singer: that. See, look, look,

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, me too.

Jasmin Singer: news. Even though, even though. My grandmother used to say, I love you, even though it was like a j old Jew joke kind of of thing. Like, look at us having good

Mariann Sullivan: I once heard an ex, I once heard an expression, which I always thought was very good, which kind of, that was the funny way of saying it. But, um, it was, um, one likes because one loves, in spite of.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, that's true, isn't it?

Do you have any book

Mariann Sullivan: Um.

Jasmin Singer: I'm, I'm not clear on.

Mariann Sullivan: I'm go, I, I have one and I, I don't really understand it, but, um, I'm gonna talk about it because somebody sent it to me and I actually, it, this is, this is the book it's called. Um, Lament of Hawthorne. It's by Samuel Samuel Bacca Henry.

I actually looked at this a while ago. I don't understand this book. I think it's a self-published book. Um, it's just so interesting that I'm gonna tell you about it.

Jasmin Singer: it,

Mariann Sullivan: All right, so this,

Jasmin Singer: you're telling us about it. I'm fascinated right now. Why?

Mariann Sullivan: this, this guy, this guy, um, went with his parents, um, to Egypt and, and. And he learned about, uh, various, um, figures of, of Egyptian, you know, he did a lot of the, um, tour of the pyramids and whatever. And, um, he decided there were, there's a certain style in, in Egyptian, ancient Egyptian poetry. And, um, so he was at the Temple of Hatshepsut in Deir el-Bahari

I'm sure I Deir el-Bahari. Um. And, and he was inspired by, by this carved stone relief, depicting the Pharaoh, nursing from the cow goddess Hathor's utters. And she is a cow goddess, embodying the ideals of motherly love and other traits, fertility, daily, personal and cosmic resurrection, dance, joy, sexuality, music.

So she really kind of covered it all, and he was just struck by the contradiction of seeing cows in nature and appreciating their motherly care for their calves versus the way mother cows and baby calves are treated in reality. And when he returned home, he, he, he was inspired to write this, this, this, it's a poem really.

It's a book length poem. It's, it's called A Lament. And, um, and in the style of, uh, of, of ancient Egyptian laments, which were particular, I, I could be misreading this and if I am, I'm sorry. Um. It's just so like, like it's really elaborate. It's quite beautiful. It's full of illustrations of ancient Egyptian pottery.

Um, I, I'm not, if you're interested in religion and animals, I don't think you should miss this one. 'Cause it's crazy. It, well, I don't, I don't mean crazy in like any serious sense. I just mean what a thing to have sat down to do.

Jasmin Singer: We'll link to it in the show notes. Uh, it's, what's the name again?

Mariann Sullivan: Lament of Hathor, H-A-T-H-O-R.

Jasmin Singer: Very cool. Alright, well hopefully if you are listening to this, you caught our interview last Friday with Adam Durand. Uh, it was, it was such a great interview, and the one tomorrow is too. Totally different than than the one last week. Tomorrow we're talking to the folks from Food and Water Watch and a New York state legislator to talk about what states can do and some in New York and elsewhere are actually trying to do, to put some limitations on how big factory farms can get. That was, it was a really fascinating discussion. It was very different I think, for us. And uh, just, you know, a different take on how to change the world for animals and. those of you who are flock members, our bonus content coming out next week will be the rest of the conversation with Krissy Kasserman and Alex Beauchamp from Food and Water Watch.

So definitely check that out. There's a lot of really cool stuff coming up on Our Hen House, so thank you so much for tuning in. Don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcatcher or here on YouTube and donate if you are able to become a flock member. We have some great really, uh, cool perks at ourhenhouse.org/support. I'll talk to you next time.