The Hen Report: “When Something Shifts” | Theories of Change in Animal Advocacy and Jane Goodall’s Legacy

Jasmin Singer: And we are the same size. we, it's like an ongoing thing.

Mariann Sullivan: We're definitly not the same size in real life.

Jasmin Singer: You're tall, I'm short and like, but right now on my screen, we look the same size and we spent way too long.

Mariann Sullivan: On my screen, I look brobdingnagian, and, is that the right word?

Jasmin Singer: I don't know what you, what language.

Mariann Sullivan: You look teeny, tiny, and like you're in a well.

Jasmin Singer: Well get Lassie. Oh, and don't talk about falling in a well, Vicki just fell in a well, like...

Mariann Sullivan: Right. Vicki just fell in a well.

Jasmin Singer: Like for real fell in a Well, she's fine. She literally was like, Hey, I don't know if I'm gonna finish my work. I fell in a well, like, oh, Uhhuh. Yeah. And my dog ate my homework. But anyway, here we are. This is the Our Hen House podcast universe.

And as you probably know, Rising Anxieties comes out on Tues... well, we're a universe. Uh, we, we've already taken over the world. We've already changed the world for animals. Now we're gonna change the universe for them.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Uh, I I think we still have like a few things left.

Jasmin Singer: Details. Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, the Hen Report on Thursdays and the long form interview on Fridays and bonus for Flock members comes out on Mondays. We are a podcast and we're on YouTube, so subscribe and hit like wherever you listen. So I'm tired and I just had,

Mariann Sullivan: I am too!

Jasmin Singer: I know I could tell you're tired, but not because of your talking, but 'cause you're a little cranky,

Mariann Sullivan: Is everybody, like clicking off on the assumption that this is going to be low energy? Because it is.

Jasmin Singer: I, I have two things to say about that. I got a new protein powder that's like an iced coffee, and I just made like a smoothie with it. It wasn't that good, but I thought it would wake me up.

Mariann Sullivan: Sounds good.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: Why are you telling about it if it wasn't any good?

Jasmin Singer: Well, I'm sort of interested in the company Orgain, which by the way, like I'm just talking about the,

Mariann Sullivan: Heard of that.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. I get my protein powder from Orgain and they have all these flavors now, like I,

Mariann Sullivan: They're

Jasmin Singer: everything.

Not all

Mariann Sullivan: of their products are vegan.

Jasmin Singer: Okay. Well obviously the ones I get all are, but I mean, protein, protein, like protein is just absolutely everywhere and in absolutely everything. Although

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, we all know that. It's all anybody ever talks about, and most of them act as if the only place you can get it is from animals. Uh.

Jasmin Singer: Seeing more and more plant-based proteins being discussed and, and also being carried at the grocery store, so. I agree that a lot of people are

Mariann Sullivan: Protein, protein. Like, like why did that happen? Is it true? I have no idea. I don't think so. I think the recommendations, like otherwise we would've been dying all those years.

Jasmin Singer: Right. I've ne I'm, yes.

I don't know, in any case.

Mariann Sullivan: I don't think we should discuss things that we know nothing about.

Jasmin Singer: All right, well, we spoke, uh.

Mariann Sullivan: Covers really a lot of territory.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, we spoke the other day at Main Street Vegan Academy,

Mariann Sullivan: We know a lot about.

Jasmin Singer: Victoria Moran's. Uh, this is her amazing training program for people to become certified, uh, vegan lifestyle coaches. But this particular, and we've been, we've been, you know, instructors for very, for many, many years at this, and this, now it's fully online.

It used to be in person and the last cohort that we just spoke to, like a lot of the people in it either worked within animal protection or, you know, just were experts in their field.

Mariann Sullivan: Or in veganism, not necessarily

Jasmin Singer: Right, right.

Mariann Sullivan: Related veganism, but in some kind of veganism.

Jasmin Singer: And we usually talk about animal rights 1 0 1 and animal Law 1 0 1. And I just, I, I was really struggling with, with the idea of just talking to people who probably already know about gestation crates and, and battery cages about gestation crates and borrowing.

Mariann Sullivan: A lot of people know more than they used to. I mean, that's one of the great and unbelievably frustrating things about this work is that awareness has, I mean, certainly people don't know as much as they should, but people know factory farms are bad. People know there's bad stuff. It doesn't change what they eat, but,

Jasmin Singer: Right,

Mariann Sullivan: they do know a lot more.

And these people, I mean, we were both anticipating that they probably knew a lot and what are we gonna stand up there and like explain, know, what a battery cage is.

Jasmin Singer: Right. Exactly. So you had the great idea, as you do, of kind of slightly pivoting the animal rights part of the talk to be about theories of change and how people are changing the world for animals. And this was largely inspired by your law review article that you, uh, published earlier this year that we've talked about.

Uh, and I mean, I think it went really well. I think people were really interested in what theories of change are and the different ways that people are going about change making for animals. So. Well done.

Mariann Sullivan: That, well, thank you. I do feel that. Like a lot of, I mean, there's a lot of really, really strong feelings about theories of change in the animal rights world. As we all know, people are very opposed to each other, and I tend to, I tend to approach them kind of as like, that they're all legitimate and I'm not sure everybody is on board with that.

But you know, I think there... it's not that I choose to embrace every single one of the theories of change. And of course, to some extent I'm talking about welfareism, um, you know, improve small welfare improvements. You know, a lot of people feel strongly that that's not the way forward and, and, uh, it's not really what I embrace either, but I just, I don't know.

I, I feel the need to like, just state, kind of take a place to state what are the, all the different ways that people think that. Are possible ways forward.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: To tell you the truth, I don't think it's one or the other, or the other. I think it's, you know, they're prob...A, I don't think we can change people's minds about what they think is the right way forward.

And B, I think they all have to kind of work in synergy.

Jasmin Singer: Absolutely

Mariann Sullivan: Talking about vegan advocacy obviously is one, persuading people kind of more or less one by one. Uh, um, that.

Jasmin Singer: One, one cupcake at a time.

Mariann Sullivan: Telling them what's happening to animals, and that's not always one by one. Of course, there's other ways to do it too.

Telling them what's happening to animals and persuading them to stop eating them, which is, you know, kind of. I think most of our wheelhouse. Um, and then the welfare reform and, and um, you know, trying to set that balance between getting those little incremental improvements, but not saying that, that it's enough, which is a really hard line to draw for a lot of people. And, you know, Good Food Institute, like they have always embraced this theory of change, that if you build it, they will come. Like, you just have to make it cheap and delicious and, and available and, and it'll take over. I think those things are hugely important, but I, I don't think they're enough by them themselves.

And, you know, other things like, uh, just like I think PETA's theory of change really depends a lot on, on bringing attention to animals in general, not just factory farming, not just what's happening to food animals, but like, just really high attention, uh, um, campaigns to, to get people to see all of these different things that are happening to animals.

I hope they would agree with how I characterize that. So, so there's a lot of different ways that people move forward, but I really do think they are all necessary and probably all together, they're not enough because we're not making enough change.

Jasmin Singer: I have to tell you something. Uh, this is breaking news for right now, but it won't be breaking by the time it airs. Uh, I forgot to put do not disturb on, and I just got a alert on my, uh, a news alert that, um, Jane Goodall died.

Mariann Sullivan: Awww.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, she was, um, 91 and she, it says that she was in California as part of a speaking tour.

Uh, but it also said she died of natural causes. So I, you know, so I don't actually really understand what natural causes are, but, uh...

Mariann Sullivan: What do you mean? Like she wasn't murdered.

Jasmin Singer: Right. Yeah. I mean, I get that, but like, it, it just sounds like.

Mariann Sullivan: I mean, I feel really, really sad and at the same time talk about, like a life well lived. And it sounds like a generous death that she, she was healthy.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: Mean, she was healthy and dynamic. I mean, she's been working this like all this time, up until like, apparently the day she died.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, and she was.

Mariann Sullivan: That into account, like what a heroine.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. And, and I know that she worked with, um, Roots and Shoots. I, I would say most recently that was a big focus of her work as far as I know. Um, and

Mariann Sullivan: I mean, she founded that organization, right?

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Absolutely. And she, uh, she was just, she did such incredible work for raising awareness about animals and.

Mariann Sullivan: One of the few people who trans, you know, she, she started purely with wildlife, obviously, chimpanzees specifically, and, and, and then later like transitioned to the, the whole panoply of animals and, and embracing. I mean, I'm pretty, I know she was vegetarian for a long time, pretty sure, well, I think she was vegan, like, towards the end.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, as far as I know she was.

Mariann Sullivan: but,

Jasmin Singer: what would you...

Mariann Sullivan: How many people do that? Like start off, you know, doing research and as a scientist and a particularly animal of interest and actually start to see the big picture? Like nobody.

Jasmin Singer: So kind of tying this back to what you were just saying about theory of change, like what would you say her theory of change was? Maybe that knowledge leads to empathy, would you say?

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, totally. And also just the whole way, I mean, what she meant by knowledge, she didn't fo, I mean, her whole breakthrough was that she didn't follow the rules of how you're supposed to see animals. You know, she gave them names, which was considered unbelievably controversial, when she started her, her research. She lived among them, I mean, not literally all the time or anything, but tried to form relationships, tried to see them as individuals.

She changed the way people saw chimpanzees, and then how she changed the way research was done. So. I, I think it had to do with seeing animals as, as individuals, which, particularly in the scientific realm, which nobody did. I mean, she totally changed the way science was done around animals.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. And, and I would throw in there that one of her theories of change was probably rooted in the idea that local action can create global change. I, I mean, I would, would you say that's a theory of change? I mean, I know with Roots and Shoots, for example, um, when she was. She was doing a lot of one-on-one work with young people and inspiring them to take action in their own communities.

You know, planting trees and um, cleaning rivers and obviously taking care of protecting animals. And, and that kind of, in the weeds work really did create a shift. I mean, everyone knows who Jane Goodall is, whether or not you're an animal person. So. Uh, maybe that's another theory of change out there, but

Mariann Sullivan: I, I think so.

Jasmin Singer: In any case,

Mariann Sullivan: Think, think globally. Act locally

Jasmin Singer: Right, right.

Mariann Sullivan: Like the bumper sticker says.

Jasmin Singer: Like a bumper sticker says.

Uh, when I first went vegan, 20, I don't know, 21, 22 years ago, I, um. 22 years. Anyway, I had a bumper sticker speaking of that, said like, you can't be a meat. No, it wasn't a bumper sticker. It was like a pin. It said you can't be a meat-eating environmentalist.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I remember that one.

Jasmin Singer: But I think that like that has changed since.

Mariann Sullivan: I have an article for us to

Jasmin Singer: Okay. What is it? What is it?

Mariann Sullivan: I don't think that you saw this one.

Jasmin Singer: Okay, tell me.

Mariann Sullivan: Um, I saw the headline and I thought, oh, we have to talk about that. And this is from Greenpeace. I mean it's from the website, Greenpeace's website. Greenpeace activists in cages confront UN livestock conference and call for just transition from industrial agriculture. I have to say I was pretty excited. Because, you know, it's Greenpeace and as we all know, environmental organizations don't tend to like, you know, focus on the animals in cages. So this happened in Rome, it was the, the start of the UN's flagship Livestock Conference at the Food and Agriculture Organization in Rome. And so all these uh, groups 90 environment, development, food, and agriculture groups called on governments to urgently, urgently slash agricultural emissions by supporting a quote, just transition away from industrial agriculture to a food system based on agroecology. And I read that, that's the first sentence, and I said. What, what is, what is that? And the whole thing is just, it's so typical of these environmentalists and at least they're finally recognizing that the food system is a part of, of the problem. But you know, it's just never about the animals that. It's like they're avoid like a, they use the word agroecology instead of using the word cow. God forbid. So, um, it did talk about these Greenpeace, Italy activists who sound like they were actually doing, doing a really pretty authentic job. 'cause they, they staged an intensive livestock farm. They used pink smoke to reflect methane and, um, sound effects. And so they, there were 10 large cages containing activists dressed as cows and pigs, and the placards said, farms, not factories, just transition. Agro ecology now.

There, yeah, there's a powerful slogan, agroecology now. And, alright, this one is good. Big meat and dairy are cooking the planet. So that's at least a little specific, but the, the, the generalized terms just drove me crazy. Uhs.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: Signatories call on governments to quote, incentivize agricultural practices that restore ecosystems, support biodiversity, and ensure access to healthy and nutritious foods for all.

Just say it. Just say, stop eating animals. Just say it. They never say stop eating animals. This was one from Africa talking about there's a major push by global agribusiness and donors to intensify and industrialize African livestock and agriculture. Um, but they wanna work with policymakers to use production systems based on agroecology and Indigenous approaches.

Just say it. Just say it, don't eat animals. There's this one from Theresa Anderson who's from Action Aid International. Corporate controlled industrial agriculture is the second largest cause of climate change. Agro eco agro ecological farming methods work with nature instead of against to cut emissions and are more resilient to climate change impacts. Nowhere in here do they ever say, maybe we should like eat vegetables instead of, instead of animals. COP 30 is coming up. You know, we used to get more excited about that since every year they seem to do less. It's gonna be held in the Amazon. Um.

Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: Belem, I'm not sure how you pronounce it. I guess that's in for Brazil, um, with the world's largest ecosystem under threat from aggressive deforestation caused by industrial agriculture.

Well, exactly what kind of industrial agriculture in order to create what food?

Jasmin Singer: Right.

Mariann Sullivan: Alright. I'm sorry. I meant this to be like a positive article from that title and it instead it made me really mad.

Jasmin Singer: Well, it also totally. Poo is what I said right before it, which is that it was an antiquated belief to say, you know, you can't be a meat eating environmentalist because environmentalists are getting it a little bit more.

Mariann Sullivan: They didn't get that memo.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Yeah. Alright, well you have some other, uh, you have some other stories for us too.

I mean, none of them is gonna be anywhere near as good as the video you sent me earlier this week about socializing feral cats.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah,

Jasmin Singer: because.

Mariann Sullivan: that one, didn't you? It was

Jasmin Singer: I loved it.

Mariann Sullivan: Was a video about three kittens. So you know, right off the bat, it's gonna be good.

Jasmin Singer: I mean, it's, you know, it's so funny, like, uh, we, I have so many animals and, uh, like I couldn't never get bored of just watching kitten videos like that, that you send to me, and

Mariann Sullivan: They're just so insanely cute.

Jasmin Singer: But there's also this.

Mariann Sullivan: like, I'm, I, I know that isn't the hottest newsflash.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, but it's also like there's an urgency there. So, you know, like it is all of all, as I've said, all their little thoughts. I mean, as, as you've said, and I've quoted you saying all their, all their little thoughts or giant thoughts, I don't know. But, uh, it, it really takes me out of the, the like endless news cycle of horror that is going on, like when you show me.

Mariann Sullivan: I'll watch like one video of, um, you know, the news or the president or some monstrosity, and then I'll watch a, a, a cat video and to kind of cleanse the palate and, yeah.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: Was a really special video. I really do wanna recommend it for anybody who's interested. I really like the work that they're doing.

This is from Flatbush Cats in Brooklyn, their videos are excellent. They have loads of them, you know, mark, mark a week off on your calendar, and they're instructional. I mean, and this one in particular really is. I mean, it tells the story of these three particular kittens, how they were rescued, how they knew that they had been abandoned by their well, not abandoned by their mother.

I, you know, we don't know what happened to their mother. They weren't that young at the time, so she might have just moved on, as they will do. And, um, and so because they weren't that young, they were at that edge of are they gonna be feral? Are we, are we gonna be able to, you know, home these, uh, these cats?

So they were challenging. They go through the entire process of trapping them, which was really, really hard. They had to be trapped separately 'cause they all wouldn't, they wouldn't go into the, under the cage, like together uh, through the entire process. They, and how, how painstaking it is and how many days it takes and how much intense work it does.

But at the end, also had these three cats in homes and they were clearly the same kittens 'cause they had like unusual markings. And there they are these big, big chunky cats living in these, in these homes, looking totally happy. And instead of being out on the street, it was just a lovely video.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: know how to, um, socialize feral kittens, semi feral kittens, you know, kittens that have not gone over the edge yet, highly recommend it.

I also highly recommend all of their other videos.

Jasmin Singer: can't.

Mariann Sullivan: Cats.

Jasmin Singer: Flatbush cats just on YouTube. Right?

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Jasmin Singer: I, I can't find it, but I wanna, um,

Mariann Sullivan: Oh dear.

Jasmin Singer: No, I wanna have Vicki put it in the show notes, so I will make sure to find it. Oh

Mariann Sullivan: I hope that's their name...

Jasmin Singer: no, I found, I found it. You're right, you're right, you're right. It is, uh oh. Playing a video. It stopped. Oh my God. I'm literally two seconds into a video that just started playing and I have to go.

Bye. All right. Um, that's so funny. Alright, so let's talk about some of the other articles you had. Uh.

Mariann Sullivan: There's not that many, Jasmin. I don't have a whole list of them. Um, I did wanna mention Cass Sunstein. I don't know whether it's been a while since Cass Sunstein was involved with animal rights. He is, you know, he is a pretty famous guy. He's a, I would say he's a public intellectual. Um, he is at Harvard um. Let's see. He's the Robert Walmsley University professor at Harvard Law School. He's also the founder and director of the program on Behavioral Economics and Public Policy at Harvard Law School. So basically, he's very fancy, but he also writes these popular books. I mean, I think the big one was Nudge, Improving Decisions about Health, Wealth and Happiness.

And uh, and, but he is written a bunch, you know, he is written, he's written a gazillion things. He also was in the Obama administration as the, um, what was the name of the the, the organ, the part of the? The Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs, which is, you know, when, when we used to have a federal government, it was an important part of it. And, and so he is a big deal and he was an animal rights guy. I mean, and he wrote several articles and they were really, you know, maybe didn't agree with a hundred percent, but very powerful from somebody with a lot of prestige. And, um, that was when he was, he was partnered with Martha Nusbaum at the University of Chicago.

They broke up.

Jasmin Singer: Oh,

Mariann Sullivan: if she, that was the reason. Anyway, I don't

Jasmin Singer: I didn't know. I didn't know that. That's some you're, that's some tea.

Mariann Sullivan: Spilling the tea here.

Jasmin Singer: Seriously.

Mariann Sullivan: Well now he's, he's partnered with, assuming he still is with that, that woman, Samantha, what's her name? Who used to be, um, the UN Ambassador under Obama. Anyway, um, Yeah, so he was a big deal and a big animal rights

Jasmin Singer: Power, Samantha Power.

Mariann Sullivan: Power and, and, uh, and then in, in his congressional hearing, because he, his, the, the office that he held in the Obama administration had to be like authorized by Congress. Um, and he threw animals under the bus. They asked him all of these questions about animals and he just kind of

Jasmin Singer: Why? Why do you think? Why do you think that is? Oh,

Mariann Sullivan: I think.

Jasmin Singer: Well, that sucks.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, but he is back. He's back and now he's trying to get involved in animals again with animals. Again, trying to explain, I think he's planning on writing a book and I just saw, I know before I tell you about it, just say, I don't think this is gonna, there's an online version of this talk, so we'll just have to find out about it later. But, um, he's gonna be talking at the Cambridge Center for Animal Rights Law, and he's going to be giving this talk Beyond Kant and Bentham, a Bill of Rights for Non-human Animals. I would love to see this talk and I can't wait till he comes out with the book because, you know. I'm mad at him for throwing animals under the bus, but you know, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do and welcome back.

Anytime anybody wants to come back into the fold, they are more than welcome, especially if they're famous and prestigious. I think it's a big deal. I mean, he writes bestselling books.

Jasmin Singer: We'll take you back. Even if you're not known by anybody except your mama and super not fancy. It's fine.

Mariann Sullivan: We will.

Jasmin Singer: We'll take you back.

Mariann Sullivan: if.

Jasmin Singer: Uh, maybe there will be a video of that. That would be cool. That would be good. Hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: It doesn't seem so it, I mean, maybe there'll be a video. I don't, I doubt it. There's not a, there doesn't seem to be a simultaneous, you have to go to London, or I guess is Cambridge. You have to go to Cambridge, uh, you have to fly to London and then drive to Cambridge.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, it is hard to get there.

Mariann Sullivan: And it's, it, the lecture hall has a limited capacity, so get your ticket soon and, and your plane tickets.

I mean, assuming you're not already in Cambridge,

Jasmin Singer: Or your train tickets. I mean, not if you're, uh,

Mariann Sullivan: If you're

Jasmin Singer: in the us. Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: I don't think. I think, you know, they get it. They get the point.

Jasmin Singer: Uh, alright, so what is this about Ri Ri, I can't say it. Ridglan Farms. Okay.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, that's the other thing to talk about. I mean, we've talked many times about what's going on with Ridglan Farms and, uh, the, you know, there was the, the, the DXE undercover investigation, then the prosecution of Wayne Hsiung and other activists for having gone in and rescued, um, Julie a Beagle. And then at the very last minute after preparing for trial, um, they, they dropped the charges against them. And, and, and then the activists managed to turn the tables and get an invest and, and under this specific Wisconsin law, get an investigation done. Ridglan is a, is a breeder of, of animals used for research and they also do some research, uh, on, mostly on beagles And, um, and so, you know, dogs. So very sympathetic. And then it got, so they, they brought this action and the, the court agreed there, there needs to be a prosecution here. Did not send it back to the prosecutor who had tried to prosecute Wayne and the others, um, instead of the, the, the facility, but assigned a special prosecutor.

And nothing's happened on that since then, that I know of. But now, um, it's a little complicated how this all happened because it involves a lot of Wisconsin agency law, but there's a veterinary examining board in Wisconsin, as there is in most states, maybe in all states, uh, that, you know, kind of govern the work of veterinarians.

And they have voted unanimously to suspend the license of this guy, Richard Van Domin, who's the lead veterinarian at, at Ridglan, which this, this is a whole new way forward. I mean, they should be doing this at factory farms too. I mean, veterinarians have an obligation and you know, I, I won't tell you all the things that, um, that were happening here, but basically he was allowing employees who were not veterinarians to do surgeries that were really gruesome and, and without anesthesia.

Just terrible, terrible stuff. And they've suspended his license. This is amazing.

Jasmin Singer: That is amazing.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, this

Jasmin Singer: Do you think that it'll. Do you think it'll create a new precedent, potentially?

Mariann Sullivan: I think people will now start to try this, uh, and we'll see.

Jasmin Singer: That's ex, that's an exciting part of the law.

What are

Mariann Sullivan: these vets at factory farms authorizing to be done to these animals? Like, like once the vets on this board who are not affiliated with the industry get put on the spot and have to actually make a decision.

Is this what veterinarians should do? Apparently there's a chance that they will do the right thing.

Jasmin Singer: Well.

Mariann Sullivan: A lot of other stuff going on with Richland. I can't go into it all now, but a lot of, so much work has been done here by, um, a local organization called Dane for Dogs. Also the Animal Activist Legal Defense Project, um, at the University of Denver, which of course we've talked about many times. Alliance for Animals is another organization that's, um, affiliated. And of course, Wayne's, uh, Wayne's website is called the Simple Heart Initiative. So a lot of organizations have worked on this. A lot of people have worked on this, and it's real... this is, that's cool. That

Jasmin Singer: Very cool.

Mariann Sullivan: That is not what veterinarians should be doing.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. I love when you nerd out on, on this kind of thing, when it could be, when something shifts and it could suddenly shift a lot more. I mean, it's very,

Mariann Sullivan: I don't get an opportunity to do that that often.

Jasmin Singer: Well, it's rooted in like the in legal work and I, I, I think that's exciting. So,

Mariann Sullivan: It is.

Jasmin Singer: Alright, let's talk about, as, as our last story, this piece on Sentient Media, A Postmortem,

Mariann Sullivan: People should just go read this.

Jasmin Singer: We'll put it in the show notes.

Mariann Sullivan: it's. It's we, we love Jessica Scott Reed. She is a writer for, not just for Sentient Media, but she writes a lot for them. She's writing on something that I think hits hard for all of us. And the art title for article is A Postmortem on Veganism is Premature. You know, we've all been tortured by the fact that as she point out, like 2020, uh, we thought we'd won. It was all over, but the shouting and, um, What the Health, The Game Changers, Beyond Meat, like, like everything was going great and then everything, um, you know,

Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: changed and, and market demand dropped and, and, and, and there's constant... there's all these articles about how veganism is over. And she is just issuing a corrective here, talking about a lot of the efforts that were done to create this image. Um, and, and uh, and how that has been unfair. Talking about also how this is a typical situation for a new technology.

There's a big fanfare in the beginning, then there's hesitation and it dies down, but that doesn't mean that the, the, the, the foundation hasn't been laid for, for actually more real, more authentic growth in the future. And that's what we expect to happen. And, uh. And she also points out what if plant-based was just simply part of the solution? And talk, she talks about Denmark and how, you know, once if we ever get a government back that makes any sense, we could follow the, um, and cares about climate, we could follow their, uh, their efforts, which have been really great. Huge meat eating country. Huge, huge animal agriculture in that country.

Consider, I mean, even not considering the size of the country, they have an unbelievable pig industry, and yet they have, their government has, um, launched the world's first national action plan for plant-based foods, invested millions of dollars um, to, to make the industry stronger, brought in partners from farming and, and, and public procurement and culinary education.

And rather than framing it as a threat to meet, they kind of sides strip sidestep, uh, labels like vegan or vegetarian and just, uh, presented, present it all as a business opportunity. This is the future. This is where the money is. So she's, as she concludes, this is not the time for plant-based postmortem.

It's a very reassuring article. It, but it does not mince words. I mean, you know, she's talking about what has happened and how disappointing it has been to many of us. She's not trying to cover it up, but, uh, but there's a lot more, there's a lot more to this story yet to be told.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. The end

Mariann Sullivan: Thought people might like that article a lot.

Jasmin Singer: To quote her, she says, success is not measured by short term sales spikes or viral trends. It comes from steady integration with plant-based foods becoming normalized, accessible, and appealing. So we have to keep going. I think that's the point, right? We have to keep going, keep moving forward.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. And the industry has damaged, uh, damaged the plant-based movement or the vegan movement a lot, but they haven't killed it.

Jasmin Singer: Absolutely not. Well, on that note, uh, we have some, we have some exciting shows coming up, so thank you as always for tuning in to Our Hen House and we hope that you will subscribe on your favorite pod catcher and or on YouTube. Uh, so thanks again for joining us. We will be back very soon, sooner than you can even realize with more Our Hen House for you.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Oh, before you go, I just wanna mention, um, we're gonna have Gail Eis on very soon to talk about her new book Out of Sight An Undercover Investigators Fight for Animal Rights and Her Own Survival. But we're going to be, she has, she did a reading of, um, from that book for us, and that'll be going out to flock members on, on Monday.

And if you wanna get a head start and, and get a glimpse of the book before you listen to her interview, that would be an opportunity to do that. If you're in the flock, if you're not, what can I tell you?

Jasmin Singer: I thought you were gonna say if you're not flock you, but you didn't say that.

Mariann Sullivan: No, I wouldn't say that.

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