What’s Next for Animals with Tracy Reiman, PETA’s New President

That's what I read in the bio, and so you've seen a lot. You've seen a lot of really horrible things. You've seen a lot of really huge successes, and I, I, we, you know, everybody in this movement, people feel have different feelings about PETA, some things they agree with, some things they don't. It is a big organization with big plans, and it evokes big emotions.

But there is nobody in this movement who doesn't wanna know more about where PETA is headed in its quest to change the world for animals. And, um, please remember, subscribe on your favorite podcaster or on YouTube, and now let's get to it. Welcome, Tracy.

Tracy Reiman: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, I'm thrilled to have you. PETA is, of course, I, I don't even know whether a lot of people in the movement really recognize how big PETA is, uh, because you know, you see all the different organizations in your social media and you don't realize their different impact. But PETA is a very big organization with many moving parts.

And can we just start off by talking about what are going to be your priorities going forward? Basically, I know you can't cover it all, but, but some of the highlights.

Tracy Reiman: Yeah, I mean, we will continue our ever groundbreaking work. Um, so that won't change. We'll continue with investigations and celebrity campaigns and protests and quirky stunts and legal maneuvering and all of those things. But I will bring my experience in youth marketing and social media to the forefront and really work to create the next generation of kind consumers.

This is, I think, what gives me hope every day is young people. And so we've really made it a very big point to reach Gen Z and now Gen Alpha, the 13 year olds, they're teenagers now, and.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh my God, I didn't even know they had a name.

Tracy Reiman: Yeah, they do. And to really just help them understand, you know, who animals are and what they can do in their everyday life in order to, uh, help them.

And we're doing that using technology. We have animatronic elephant and cow that we're taking to elementary schools. We have virtual reality experiences that we're taking to colleges. We have a robotic calf who we're taking out now to ask people if they're wearing his mother. Um, and many other sort of technological advances that we think really open people's minds a bit more to, uh, animals and animal rights and, and thinking about these issues that they wouldn't ordinarily otherwise.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, that, that is very good proposal to hear about. And difficult. I don't think it's just because I'm old. I think for anybody, we're all aware that things are changing so fast so many ways, especially technology, but that covers a lot of human behavior, the way technology is affecting us. And just keeping up with it, much less trying to get ahead of it and figure out what to do next is a huge job, so I'm glad that that's what PETA is, is on.

Can you, before we, before we get into details, can you just tell us a little bit about PETA's reach? What, I mean, I know, of course you're, you're an American organization primarily, but you are really all over the world.

What countries are you in? And, and, and you can't cover this completely, but do different things work in different places?

Tracy Reiman: Yeah, we're 10.4 million members and supporters strong worldwide. Um, you know, obviously the US is our largest entity, but we have entities in the UK and France and Germany and Australia, PETA Asia-Pacific, the Netherlands, and France. And you know, each of them is their own entity, but we work closely with them.

Um, and yeah, d different strategies work in different places. Um, you know, we're sort of the trendsetters of the organization, so, you know, things that work well here, we'll try in other countries and, and sometimes vice versa. Uh, but, uh, social media, our reach on social media is really key. Um, that this is the window to the world to animal suffering.

You know, it used to be we would get an eight second soundbite on the evening news, and that was it. And they would never show anything graphic because it was too upsetting to their, uh, the people watching. And now we can do an undercover investigation and, and in, you know, hours, reach tens of thousands, sometimes millions of people.

So the social media, um, our strategy worldwide has been really important and we work closely with all the entities to, to, uh, to do that.

Mariann Sullivan: All right. Let's take a moment before we, before we explore more of the future. Let's take just a minute to look at the past. 'Cause you've been there, as I mentioned, I think it's 33 years. I'm sure you've had many successes. I'm sure you've seen many horrible things.

Like, that's quite a job for 33 years.

Just tell I, we can't cover it all. Tell us one story. One story of one of your favorite, presumably successes.

Tracy Reiman: Yeah, I mean there have been many, it'll be 34 years, uh, next month that I've been at PETA. You know, I started when I was 23 years old. I was actually in college still and, and decided I wanted to work for animals. And so I, um, joined the animal rights group on campus and then also decided to just try and get a job at peta.

So I was in the customer service department taking orders from people for the catalog. This was back when you couldn't buy cruelty-free dish soap or detergent in the store. So we sold it along with t-shirts and bumper stickers and you know, the rest was history. Um. And I moved later into the campaigns department and was doing all sorts of things.

And I think, you know, there are a few huge milestones for me. Um, the Calvin Klein victory when we got Calvin Klein to stop selling fur was, um, a real, um, landmark. Um. We... getting Ringling Brothers to shut down. You know, my son is now 22 years old. He's been protesting with me since he was four weeks old in a little Baby Bjorn, um, at a KFC, you know, and so it was really wonderful to be able to share with him something that he had been protesting with me.

He protested at Ringling Brothers every year with me for years. To show him that it was over, that you can protest and you can succeed. It may take years, but it does work if you are relentless and you never give up. Um, but there was a defining moment definitely in my work at PETA when we were called, um, by some farmers in North Carolina because there was 180,000 chickens starving.

The owner of the company had had gone bankrupt and just stopped sending feed for the birds, and the farmers did not know what to do. So they called peta. Um, this is back in 1995.

Mariann Sullivan: Crazy.

Tracy Reiman: Crazy. So they sent me down. Yeah, they sent me down and you know, I met with the farmers and we worked for days to try and get feed for the chickens.

Um, I watched thousands of them starve to death.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh my god.

Tracy Reiman: Um, and, you know, ultimately these farmers, um, swore out cruelty to animals complaints against the owner of the company. It was the first time ever that a factory farm farmer had been charged with cruelty to animals on uh, chickens. Um, and he ultimately pled guilty.

Um, but there was one, uh, bird when I went to one of the farms, there were three farms and they had probably 20,000 chickens in each of them. These were free range farms, mind you.

Mariann Sullivan: Okay. Okay.

Tracy Reiman: But they were not outside. They were inside. Um, and. I caught eyes with one of the chickens in there and she was crippled, and I just, it just broke my heart.

I couldn't save her. Um, and I knew then that I would dedicate my life to, to helping them.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. it is. I mean there, I think there are so many people who have that moment, of just connecting with an animal. And sometimes it is one that you couldn't help, but it changes your life.

The other thing that we hear a lot about is that, um, when, you know, we've interviewed 10 billion people.

Tracy Reiman: Uhuh!

Mariann Sullivan: We've been doing this for a long time,

Tracy Reiman: Yep.

Mariann Sullivan: And hell of a lot of them, when you ask them how they got started, mention PETA. I mean it really is remarkable.

It used to be they would mention a brochure.

We don't hear as much about brochures anymore, but uh...

Tracy Reiman: We're still passing them out everywhere though!

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah. All right. You mentioned fur, so how much fur, I mean. I know I wanted to pick up on one thing you said, Ringling. I, I lived in mostly most of my life in Manhattan, so the Ringling protests were big. When Ringling, uh, closed down, that was a very big moment for me, so thank you for you for that.

Um, all right, so, uh, fur. We all know that they're on the run, so how much progress has really been made? I know it's a lot, but what is left to be done, if anything? Is it done?

Tracy Reiman: Well, you know, every year the, you know, every couple of years they come say, fur is back, fur is back! But you know, at the end of the day, there's not really anyone selling it. So they may be getting it vintage or they may, there may be one or two, you know, high-end, uh, designers still selling it, but most companies aren't.

Um, in fact, there are no sort of mainstream companies that sell it. So. It is dead. Will it ever be entirely dead when we have other countries, um, China or Russia, where they're still wearing it? I don't know. But you know, if you foc we focus on what we can see, what we can achieve. And in the US, it is dead.

And so we have really turned our attention more toward leather and wool. We've done 15 undercover investigations into the wool industry on four continents and have found the same horrific abuse at every single one. Um, and this is a really a, an important issue because I, people still don't really understand it.

They think it's just a haircut and it's not. And so it's, it's...

Mariann Sullivan: They think you're doing, like in so many of these industries, they think you're doing the animal a favor because they have to get rid of the wool. Like not seeing the big picture.

Tracy Reiman: Yeah, exactly. And so we're really, um, turning our attention to, to these, and we've really been pushing companies behind the scenes. We spend a lot of time, we have a whole division that does nothing but work with companies behind the scenes to try and get them to stop, uh, using and abusing animals or selling animals.

And it's very effective. I mean, you, you don't necessarily see every day or every month, or every year, a company that goes entirely vegan. But there are some. Uh, but they are slowly but surely moving away from these animal materials, toward non-animal materials. And every year I think we see more and more of that.

Mariann Sullivan: So is that why, I mean, when you pick something to focus on, 'cause God knows there's enough forms of animal abuse in the world to, to last for a while. When you pick one, is it because you think it's vulnerable? Uh, because you have particular inroads? Like how do you decide we're gonna focus all of PETA... well, not all of PETA, but you know, PETA's spotlight on this particular industry. And wool, I mean, what wool wouldn't come to mind, you know, my mind immediately because I think it is like, people don't realize. You have this big educational work to be done there. It's all over the place. I mean, people love it. Like so why? What is it about that industry that makes you think this is a good one for us to focus on?

Tracy Reiman: Well, just, just to answer the broader question you asked first. I mean, it's a, and it's a great one, but you know, we tend to look at where the most animals are suffering the most. And you know, we also look at at areas where other groups are not working on things. Um, wool is one of them. Um, there are very few organizations other than those who are trying to stop, you know, these one or two cruelties who are working to really eliminate the use of wool.

And part of it too is that we've done these undercover investigations and we've exposed this cruelty and we've tried to stop it and we can't. I mean, it, it, it really blows your mind when you can go to South America, you can go to Australia, New Zealand, uh, the UK, US, every single place we go, we find the same thing where workers are just beating and kicking and punching and cutting them to shreds with the shears and throwing them down shoots. It, it's just, it's so abhorrent.

And we've also done investigations into, um, cashmere goats, into mohair, into angora, into alpaca. We've exposed every single one of these industries where the, if you stop selling one, if they stop selling, selling angora, they move on to mohair. If they stop selling mohair, they move on to something else.

And so we keep exposing every single one. And all of these things also help us convince the companies that they need to move away from animal materials entirely. But we also need to educate the public because the companies will change when they think that's what the public wants. And you know, we tell them all the time, look, you know, somebody doesn't come into the store and think, oh, I need to buy a wool sweater.

They come into the store to buy something pretty, something warm, something fashionable, something that will last. They don't care what it's made of. They don't even look, um. And that's what these companies are now finding out because we're really pushing and them, they're hearing from a lot more people now.

They're seeing people outside of their stores who are leafleting or protesting, and it's making them think. They tell us these things. Sometimes it takes them a while to admit it, but, but it does, it does happen.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Uh, you know, my next question, which I, I do have them written down here, I don't just make them up on the fly. But it's kind of interesting 'cause it just keys into that. And you've kind of answered it, but I'm gonna repeat it in case you have anything to add. Where do you find the balance between focusing on encouraging individuals to change, which PETA does a lot of. It really reaches out to, you know, people who are not on board yet and trying to get them to change and focusing on institutional animal users and abusers to stop or be forced to stop. Is it always like kind of a yin and yang that you're trying to balance those two elements?

Tracy Reiman: I wouldn't say yin and yang. I mean at, at our core we're the envelope pushers. I mean, we, our goal is to keep these issues in the forefront of people's minds every single day because if they're not thinking about it, they're not talking about it, they're not changing. And so we do look every single day at how can we get this issue or that in front of people. What will make them think? Whether it's on social media or through the media or through emails or texts or whatever. And, but we, but we, so we do both. I mean, it's not one or the other, it's both. We, we do a lot of work behind the scenes to, to try and, uh, institute change while we are pushing the public to think beyond, uh, what they ordinarily would think.

Mariann Sullivan: Right. And, and I mean, I know also that, um, PETA, uh, has always, I mean, not only the work behind the scenes, but, but you do an enormous amount of, you do legal work, you do a lot of research. There's a lot that goes on at PETA that people don't see, isn't there?

Tracy Reiman: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I mean, our campaigns are... our quirky stunts and our campaigns, everybody knows that and that's fine. That's what, that's what we love, but, but we're also out there feeding people vegan food. We believe that. You know, there's so much awareness now. I mean, there was a time maybe less than 10 years ago, where people didn't even know what vegan was.

You know, we, we made a conscious decision at some point in the last 10 years, we're gonna start really pushing vegan, not vegetarian, but vegan. And it took a while, but now everybody knows what that is. But a lot of people have reluctance to try it. And so we believe, and we know that if they try it, they will be more open to it and they will consider it when they get hit with all these other messages.

And so we, we just did a, um, a, a cheese giveaway, uh, 50,000 pieces of cheese, vegan cheese to people in different cities. We just launched an ice cream truck where you have to scream for vegan ice cream, and that's touring the country right now because we know that if. Um, yeah. So the kids have to come up and scream and then they get, uh, their choice of a free vegan ice cream.

Mariann Sullivan: Really cute.

Tracy Reiman: Um, so we're, we're out there doing that. We give away Tofurkys and other vegan turkeys at Thanksgiving. It wasn't. I mean, when I first started at PETA, I remember doing radio interviews from morning till night because they could not believe we were suggesting that you not eat Turkey on Thanksgiving.

This was just mind blowing, you know? And now everybody knows somebody who's vegan or comes to their Thanksgiving, who, who doesn't eat meat. And so we've, we've just seen such enormous change. Everything seems to work, but you know, one of the things Ingrid said to me is, if you always succeed, you're not trying hard enough.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, that makes so much sense. And that's so Ingrid.

Tracy Reiman: Yep. It's so Ingrid and you know, we, so we'll try pretty much anything to, to get attention. Um, some works, some doesn't. If it works, we do it again. Um, if it doesn't, we'll still probably try it again, but, you know, whatever we can do to just keep these messages coming.

Mariann Sullivan: What about government work? I, I mean, I've interviewed your lawyers a number of times, so you, I mean, you have an effective legal department that brings really interesting cases. I don't think that's how a lot of people think of PETA, but these are really insane times.

Are there any governmental entities that, you know in the US any, I'm talking about the US mostly, legislative or administrative, anywhere, who are likely to be open to animal-based arguments in these, in these crazy times?

Tracy Reiman: Absolutely. I mean, there is no, uh, like people care about animals across the spectrum. We have Republicans, we have Democrats, we...

Mariann Sullivan: It's the only issue left.

Tracy Reiman: Really is, and I think It's, it really is the one issue I feel like where it doesn't matter what your political views are, if you care, you care. And I think that has afforded us a lot of opportunities that maybe others aren't right now.

I mean, we've been working very closely and pushing, I might add, the National Institutes of Health to step up and act to stop funding animal experiments. And we're seeing a lot of change there. A lot is happening.

There's

Mariann Sullivan: a lot going on there, isn't there? At the

Tracy Reiman: There's a lot going on.

It's

Mariann Sullivan: crazy. I keep hearing about successes.

Tracy Reiman: Well, I think part of it is that, you know, we've been working behind the scenes with some of the career folks at the NIH and they're still there and they're working with, um, those who are now, uh, in power and having an impact because they're open to this, to these issues.

So we're really seeing a lot of change there. Um, we do work on some legislation. You know, we're pushing the Cargo Act, which would eliminate, uh, funding for animal experiments internationally since there's literally no oversight and we send spend millions of dollars. But we also work, uh, in local, uh, city councils.

I mean, this past, just in the past year or two, we've had the first ever ban on glue traps. And we had two cities now that have ban glue traps, the first, uh, ban in Ojai of the, uh, breathing impaired breeds, you know, the French Bulldogs and the, uh, bulldogs and, uh, and other dogs with the flat faces who can't breathe.

Um. So we're doing a lot. You know, the, there have been several bans on the breeding of birds and the sale of birds, uh, and parrots. You know, I live here in Los Angeles and there are parrots that fly free every day. People say they're annoyed to hear it. To me, it is the sound of freedom and, you know, I think people really are opening their mind to the fact that caging a bird, especially a parrot, someone who's going to live 60, 80, even longer, years, probably outlive each of us.

Uh, they, they understand that this isn't right. And I think in a place like LA where you can see them every day flying, uh, it really kind of hits that message home. So we're starting to see more, more local bans on, on things like that too.

Mariann Sullivan: These are all great successes, but I'm kind of wondering like, like, did you think it would be this hard? You know, looking back on college graduate Tracy, like, you know, all excited going to work at PETA, did you think this would be easier? Does it shock you? Like people love animals. Not everybody, but you know, most people, a lot of really, a lot of people and it's really easy to not exploit them.

Tracy Reiman: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: Seriously, I thought this would be much easier.

Tracy Reiman: Well, I, I kind of am the opposite because I think when I first started, we would work for years to get one little victory. Um, and, and now, I mean, and I have the benefit of being here and seeing everything happen every day. I mean, there are victories every week on one thing or another. And so I, I feel like it's hard to feel like we're succeeding when there is just so much horrific abuse still happening and new things that we learn about every day that just blow my mind, but I think so much has changed and we're really making great progress.

We, I, I, I fear I will never be out of a job, but, um, but I think that every year gets better, um, and easier and people are more open. I am an optimist by nature, thankfully, which helps.

Mariann Sullivan: Seriously. We do not have the same personality.

Tracy Reiman: Which helps me do this job every day because I just feel that, you know, we are making progress.

Not enough. I mean, never enough for the animals, but, but we are.

Mariann Sullivan: I mean, a lot of the, the issues that PETA works on, and I think this is, uh, I mean I think this is brilliant. I think this is an excellent theory of change. You work on, on arguments that are not gonna be easy to win, but are conceivably winnable. Whereas like if you set out trying to turn the world vegan, like, that's gonna be a kind of a hard lift. But it is the food really that I think has been the most discouraging for me. That, you know, the, all the, it's so easy, it's so delicious, it's so fine. Like, there's just no reason and people continue to eat animals. Um, so I guess that's where I'm coming from with my pessimistic side.

Tracy Reiman: I get it.

Mariann Sullivan: I don't wanna come off as a pessimist, you know, hope, hope springs eternal .

Tracy Reiman: That's okay. I think we, we balance each other out in this movement, the, the optimists and the pessimists, so it kind of works out in the end. But I will say that, you know, one of the pros most pressing issues in our movement is the promotion of the humane washing of meat, dairy, and eggs.

And this has been a real big focus of, of ours because animal welfare groups are making it more difficult. Um, there are some groups out there now who are promoting, they're pushing companies to, to go cage free. They never even mention going vegan. So what does that say to people?

It says, oh, I'll just buy cage free eggs then. And literally every store in America now has cage-free eggs. I think what people think that means and what that actually means are not the same thing. Cage-free does not mean that they are living the good life. They are still, they're just in giant cages with tens of thousands of other birds and they suffer just as much.

They may not be confined with five or six others, but it is horrific. It is not acceptable, and a lot of these groups continue to push cage free as if it is the solution to the problem. It is creating a new problem, and that is that there are millions of people who might otherwise choose vegan who are buying those eggs.

And there's the, the groups that are supporting these standards at Whole Foods and, and GAP and, and what, wherever else. Where we've done undercover investigations, where we get whistleblower calls about horrific abuse. And some of these brands like Farmer Focus are still, still have the GAP, uh, the Global Animal Partnership, humane label on their website, on their products.

They're still being sold and yet animal groups are, are on the board and supporting this. And I think we really, we need a reckoning in our movement on this issue. We need to all get together and we need to decide enough is enough. These companies need to stop using these labels to get consumers to continue to buy their products because it's, nobody is benefiting except the meat industry here.

This animals are still suffering just as much and so, I feel like this is one of our biggest challenges, honestly. I think if we all pooled our resources and promoted vegan, we would be much further along. More animals would, would not be raised in this industry, and we would be seeing much more of the vegan products coming to market.

We are already seeing an explosion. I mean, I think people, you know, their algorithm shows them that the vegan market is not doing well. That is not true. You know, we see online what we wanna see or what we, what the, what they think we wanna see. And the fact of the matter is, just because a vegan restaurant closes or a vegan meat goes out of business, does not mean that the industry is not continuing to explode.

It just means that that one didn't make it or that restaurant struggled for whatever reason. And so I think we need more optimism in that regard. Um, and we need less of the promotion of these cruel industries by everyone.

Mariann Sullivan: I mean, of course this is an issue that has torn the movement apart since as long as I can remember. People have different positions on it.

Tracy Reiman: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: And, um, I think that you put your finger on the really important point. There may be people who wanna fight for welfare reforms because they, they're tortured by the suffering and they wanna do, they wanna do something. Uh, but there should, it should always be clear that the real an that you can never make it humane. You can only make it less inhumane.

Tracy Reiman: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: I think that messaging, um, and never putting forward the, the idea that now it's okay, that I think that that's a really crucial point, um, to, to at least bring these two points of view together.

Which, like I said, you know, has, I mean, I, I like your idea that all the groups have to come together, but come on, Tracy, you know, Have you met everybody in this movement?

Tracy Reiman: I know. I mean, I, I know them all. Um, and I want that.

Mariann Sullivan: People have different opinions about the way forward, and a lot of it is sincere. I mean, they sincerely believe this is the way forward and somebody else believe. I think, I think never being deceptive about it is absolutely crucial.

Tracy Reiman: To your point though, I think the, the groups. Some of the groups are not promoting vegan alongside their cage-free campaigns,

Mariann Sullivan: That's what I'm talking about.

Tracy Reiman: But they're not. But they're not saying, some are, but some aren't saying buy cage-free eggs. But that is what happens as a result of it.

If somebody sees a group saying, you know, push this company to go cage-free. Oh, this company went and there's no vegan messaging, that says to the person...

Mariann Sullivan: I agree that's problematic.

Tracy Reiman: Yeah. And, and that, you know, and people don't, don't know or realize that, you know, PETA was very involved in the welfare, um, pushing welfare back in the, the early nineties.

You know, we started the, you know, after the McLibel trial going way back, you know. When McDonald's was found culpably responsible for cruelty to animals. And you know, we went to McDonald's and we had a, the Mc cruelty campaign to get them to stop debeaking and, and, uh, breeding, uh, birds that were, would grow too large, too fast.

And they made some concessions, which I don't think they ultimately kept, but they acknowledged for the first time that animals suffered for their products. So that was important. But, you know, we also were part of the Global Animal Partnership, uh, humane the standards when it was first created as well,

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, I didn't know you were part of that.

Tracy Reiman: Because, because we, because we didn't think it would be a marketing ploy, you know, we thought, okay, there are some things they can do to actually reduce suffering.

Let's do that.

And, And, then, but at some point it became their whole marketing scheme. And that was what... we got out. We said we're done. This is not what we signed up for.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Tracy Reiman: What you're actually doing to help animals is not effective. Um, we're, we're done. And you know, and then another organization also pulled out several years later because of the same concerns.

And that's why we continue to push the groups to, to, to stop being on the board. They say, oh, if we're not on, we don't have a voice if we're not here. Yes, you do. We do. We all have a voice. We don't have to be in bed with them in order to get them to do what, it's the public wants it, not because you're sitting there on the board.

So there's, there's much we can do. Anyway, i'm obviously passionate about this issue. You could spend the whole 45 minutes on it.

Mariann Sullivan: yeah. Well, let's not do that.

Tracy Reiman: Yes.

Mariann Sullivan: We have a lot of other things to talk about.

One of the things I really wanted to talk about. I mean, PETA has always been at the forefront of the fight for cruelty-free cosmetics. I mean, that's something that PETA's really known for.

On like all of a sudden, every single woman, um, you know, I guess there's a few men who wear cosmetics, but almost all women, like they, they, they're all into cruelty free.

It's, it's everywhere. Like it just seems to have all of a sudden won. Is that fight basically won, is there work left to do? How do you put together the fact that people are so passionate about cruelty-free who aren't vegan yet?

Tracy Reiman: I think it's an easy thing. I mean, thi this is what it comes down to with everything, you know, I think a lot of people support our work to end, you know, the animals in circuses or animals in entertainment, because it doesn't take anything for them to, to do that. You know, changing your diet is hard. Um, and no one wants to really do that.

They like their meat or dairy or whatever. And I think, you know, cruelty-free products, it's easy to just choose the one that's cruelty-free, although most of them are now. Um, you know, I think in terms of, uh, you know, the individual, the campaign is basically done. I mean, we still are battling in the EU and in China where some of these tests are required, and we cont we're working behind the scenes, um, and in public to to, to stop those requirements.

Um, so, but you know, we, it's like I bought, I go to the store and I wanna buy, you know, individuals to travel with and I pick up, you know, the Dove's shampoo and our logos on it. And it's just so, it's such a joy to do that. Um, so, you know, that is one of those issues. It's, it's an introductory issue. It's, it's a wonderful thing that people can know that they can buy products that don't, you know, that aren't tested on animals and continue on with their life.

It introduces them to the issue.

Mariann Sullivan: Two of your biggest issues have been fur and cruelty-free cosmetics,

And both of them are, as you say, you know, relatively easy. Like, like, uh, you don't have to change your whole life. It's not like going vegan, which is also relatively easy, but I,

Tracy Reiman: exactly. It's easy now. I mean, think about when we went vegan. That was hard.

Mariann Sullivan: I know. But do you think that, um, it is because you focused on those issues or because they were the easy ones and, and is it always a balance between focusing on the easy issues that can get a lot of attention and then doing that that, you know, more fundamental work of getting people to see the big picture?

We're talking about all the animals here.

Tracy Reiman: It's funny 'cause I think about when I first started at PETA and how, you know, those were the two biggest issues. And it, it amazes me now to think that I just, it it, I can't believe that anyone ever thought it was okay to wear fur coat, you know? Um, and so I think because it was everywhere, it made sense, you know, the, especially because we had this incredible footage of the suffering of animals and had done a number of investigations of animals being skinned alive, or animals being, you know, electrocuted anally, or whatever, you know?

Um. And it was everywhere. Um, and now it's, it's not, you know, now you can't tell if it's real or faux 'cause the faux is so good. Um, but I think, you know, unless it's vintage, it's, it's almost always, uh, faux fur now. It's, it's excellent what they've been able to, to do with the non-animal materials. And I think with cosmetics too, I mean, that was a battle to, to get them to stop.

And, you know, once people understand that, why should you torture a rabbit, put substances in their eyes, just so I can wear makeup. It made sense. You know, I think these other, and, but it really does, I think, come down to the fact that it, it's easier for people too. You know, we tell people don't wear shearling now because they're using shearling because it looks like fur, um, they don't understand what that is.

Um,

Mariann Sullivan: Right.

Tracy Reiman: It, it's, you know, the skin and the hair of a, a sheep. Um, they had to kill that animal in order to make that. People don't understand that sheep have to, sheep are killed for their wool. Once they stop producing enough wool, they are killed. People don't understand, um, you know.

With leather, it's a co-product, one cannot survive without the other anymore because the margins are so small. Uh, so if you aren't eating meat because you care about cows, you need to stop wearing leather too, because it's supporting that industry when you buy leather.

Mariann Sullivan: So when the industry wants to complain about the animal rights movement, they generally don't talk about the animal rights movement. They talk about PETA.

Tracy Reiman: Mmhmm..

Mariann Sullivan: You're a stand-in and, um, in their opinion, you're everything, you represent everything that's wrong with animal rights. Do you take that as a compliment?

Does that, does that energize you when you see that?

Tracy Reiman: I wouldn't say compliment or energize 'cause it kind of annoys me in some ways that, that, you know, I feel like people should understand what we've accomplished. I want them to understand what we've accomplished, not for us, but for animals, you know? And so I think it's fine. We don't care. We're not here to win friends.

We're here to influence people.

Mariann Sullivan: The industry never going to like you.

Tracy Reiman: No, no, but the funny thing is, you know, we talk to all these companies behind the scenes. They won't admit it, but they are talking to us. Um, the ones that you would, many that you would be surprised about. But, you know, I think Canada Goose is a great example. You know, when we got them to, I mean, we battled them over their use of fur.

It was a tough campaign. Um, and then when they finally agreed to stop using it. We started meeting with them. Now we have a great relationship with them. They're starting now to sell, uh, co their, their signature parkas using non, uh, down materials. So it, it's interesting how we can be enemies and friends in the blink of an eye. Um, and I think it's because, you know, we, we, uh, reward companies for doing good things, but we don't stop there. You know, we keep pushing, you know, you can stop selling fur, but you still have down, you still have wool and we're not gonna just give in here, you know. And Calvin Klein, uh, Ralph Lauren used to say this all the time when we finally got Ralph Lauren to stop selling fur and we would go back to 'em, they said, well, we stopped selling fur.

And we said, and that's great, but it's not enough. You need to do more.

Mariann Sullivan: They just really don't get it, do they? That like all of the animals actually matter?

Just because you stop torturing two of them, uh,

Tracy Reiman: I think they're starting to though. I do. They really are. You know, it, it, so it's, it, I'm, I'm, um, I feel good about the way that companies are now starting to understand and create these internal policies about how they view animals and what they're planning to do and how they're moving things along. I mean, with, with leather too, there's so many amazing alternatives from cactus to grapes, to apple leather to, you know, pineapple.

I think companies are getting super excited about that stuff, um, because they also want it to be sustainable. And, you know, while even polyester and PE you know, plastic are, uh, better for the environment than actual leather, uh, they really want to kind of take it further than that and have something that's really, truly sustainable.

So that's really helping too.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. What about the co? I mean, I maybe one of the, there are many reasons why food is the really difficult issue to tackle, but, and one of them may be that, uh, that, you know, it's food and so it's really important to people and there are immeasurable cultural attachments that I just was of until I started to like run into. I think for maybe for a lot of us in the movement, I don't know, they just weren't that serious. So we don't realize how serious they are for other people, so there's of that, but it's also, there are probably, I mean, supermarkets can change what they do, but you know, ranchers, they're not gonna change. They don't wanna change what I mean, they would have to completely change what they do.

It's not like making leather outta pineapple instead of buying it from the ranchers. So is it, I mean, there's a million reasons, but it's one of the reasons that, that people are just embedded in that industry so deeply? And so, and they're so powerful and they have so much governmental support, uh, that they just, they can't imagine compromising they just fight back?

Tracy Reiman: Yeah, I mean, I think the government support is key. Um, I wish that that wasn't happening. It would make it a lot easier. Um, it's generational and a lot of the farmers have been doing this for generations. It's what they know. But I do think there are some who are starting to, um, diversify and raise, you know, soybeans or some other food item instead.

And I think, I hope, that we will see more of that as the, the vegan food market continues to explode and the need for some of these other, um, foods, uh, are, are needed. Um, but you know, I think really, you know, again, back to the kids, you know, really focusing on showing young people you know how to be vegan and reaching them about who animals are and about speciesism and why they should care is absolutely critical. And that's why we're spending so many resources to try and reach them in all the ways. We meet them where they are, at concerts and through their, through the artists that they love, through all different issues.

I mean, the dissection issue is another important one, you know. Um, I was really, um, I sort of two things. One, when I was in college, that's the first issue I worked on with the animal rights group on our campus, was to try and get a dissection choice policy. Much has not changed since then, which is crazy to me.

And then my son, when he was in, um, ninth grade, um, came home and said he was supposed to dissect the next day. And I said, what that, that... you can't! Um, and he didn't want to, and I tried to get with his teacher. She was very obstinate and she was a young teacher. And so finally I said, we need to find something that these biology teachers will embrace because they don't wanna stop doing this hands-on thing.

So that's when we decided to create the Kind Frog, which is a synthetic model that is exactly like a real frog. And last year we had a hundred schools in a pilot program. More than 10,000 kids used Kind Frogs rather than once living frogs. And these things too, I think, help them understand the bigger issue, you know, but because they realize, oh, I'm not using a real frog.

I like that. That feels good. So I think all of these things are modeling and helping them embrace the bigger picture.

Mariann Sullivan: That's really true. You know, when I was, was in, um, junior high school, which is when we first had to dissect, which how, what kind of a learning experience

Tracy Reiman: I know.

Mariann Sullivan: was in ninth grade

Tracy Reiman: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: My friend Jeanie and I stole our frog and let him loose in Hubble's pond, but it

Tracy Reiman: Love that.

Mariann Sullivan: You know, it was all very un with subterfuge and not like I was standing up fighting and saying, uh.

Tracy Reiman: Oh, I love that though.

Mariann Sullivan: Was, it, it's a terrible thing to teach kids.

Like, what could you possibly learn other than, well, these animals should be killed just for

Tracy Reiman: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: uh, I dunno.

Tracy Reiman: Absolutely agree there.

Mariann Sullivan: Just crazy.

Tracy Reiman: Yep.

Mariann Sullivan: Right. I I, I know I need to let you go. You are apparently a busy woman, and I, I don't know why. Um, but, but just tell me a little bit, something that you alluded to. Because we talked about how when you got outta college, you wanted to join PETA. When you were in college, you wanted to stop dissecting. When did it start? When did you start knowing that this was who you were?

Tracy Reiman: I mean, I was always very sensitive to the plight of animals and I, so I think it gr, you know, I had animals growing up. My mom always, you know, embraced adopting from shelters and this sort of thing. So I, it just grew. And I don't, you know, while I was in college and doing the animal rights work there, I just knew this is what I was going to do with my life.

And I was fortunate enough to find PETA, which perfectly matched with my no holds barred approach to getting things done. And, you know, it's just kind of worked out. You know, I, I like working, um, and I think I would rather spend my days, uh, fighting for what's important to me, and that's animal rights, than doing anything else.

And so it just was kind of a perfect match.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I guess you were just born for this.

Tracy Reiman: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: So thank you so much for doing it.

Tracy Reiman: Thank you.

Mariann Sullivan: You a tough act to follow, I'm sure you know that.

Tracy Reiman: Absolutely do. Yeah. If I could say one last thing, um, you know anyone out there who's listening, you know, if, if you're not already active, you know, join our action team online. You'll learn about events in your area. About protests. We'll send you free literature to pass out on any issue that you want.

You can table at farmer's markets or events. You can talk to store managers about selling vegan products. You can feed vegan food to people who might never otherwise try it. You can choose entertainment that doesn't involve animals. You can spay and neuter your, your neighbors animals if they haven't.

There's so many things that you can do and we are here to help. We have a whole team of people who are ready to help at any given time. So, you know, come to peta.org and join the action team and, and really get active for animals.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, thank you for adding that. And I have to say that as long as I've been doing this, whenever anybody has needed anything, PETA was always there with free materials.

Tracy Reiman: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: Activists frequently don't. Not every group would do that.

Tracy Reiman: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: I just can remember a number of times being, lobbying situations or whatever, PETA would give you everything you needed, and they would always say, if you wanna take our name off of it, if we're not, if we're not the face you want, that's. Like you have all, PETA has always been the most generous organization

Tracy Reiman: Oh, thank you.

Mariann Sullivan: That. Um,

Tracy Reiman: That's very nice. Thank you. We just,

Mariann Sullivan: The people there are in it for the mission.

Tracy Reiman: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. We're, we're here for you anytime, anywhere.

Mariann Sullivan: Thank you, Tracy. Thank you so much for adding that and for taking the time to join us today.

Thanks to all of you for tuning into Our Hen House. I can't tell you how much we appreciate it. Remember to subscribe and like on your favorite pod catcher and or on YouTube, and if you're a Flock member, check your email on Monday for your bonus content and for everyone, tune into Rising Anxieties on Tuesday, that's our next episode. And have a great weekend.​