The Hen Report: “We Are Just One Other Being” | Veganic Farming with Jimmy Videle

Jasmin Singer: We're gonna be joined in just a minute by one very cool veganic farmer, I mean kind of all veganic farmers are probably cool, but this particular one, Jimmy Videle is also an author and I would say is particularly cool. He was on the podcast back in 2023 and he is here to tell us about this year's Veganic Summit.

So, before we get to that, and we'll bring Jimmy on in just a second, a quick reminder about the Our Hen House podcasts, Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report, which is this on Thursdays, the long form interview on Fridays and the bonus material for flock members comes out on Monday. We are on YouTube now as well.

So please subscribe and hit like wherever you listen or watch. Alright, so I promised you a cool person, I'm going to deliver a cool person. Welcome back to Our Hen House, Jimmy.

Jimmy Videle: Hey, thank you so much, Jasmin and Mariann. It is just absolutely my pleasure to be here with you both. You, you two are amazing and thank you. Thank you profusely.

Jasmin Singer: You have an amazing energy, and it's not just because you just called us amazing, like you're just a, you.

Mariann Sullivan: It's all just amazing.

Jasmin Singer: I love it. Like you just are like a ray of sunshine. Before we get to the summit, for those who may have missed the interview a couple years ago, tell people where in the world you are and like a little about the farm and what you, what you've been growing this year.

Jimmy Videle: Yeah. So hi everybody. I'm Jimmy Videle, and I live in a little, uh, hamlet, uh, called Boileau, Quebec. Uh, it's about two hours northeast, uh, excuse me, northwest of Montreal. Uh, two hours northeast of Ottawa. Uh, in the mountains, in the forest, a very, very beautiful place. Our, our farm is called La Firm de Lobe, and uh, this year was an exceptionally challenging year as all farming years are.

But we had a really, really beautiful year for potatoes and onions and carrots and beets and tomatoes were okay, but not fantastic, but we still grew. 27 different varieties of tomatoes. Um, so we cultivate basically about 75% of what we eat. Uh, and in the wintertime it might even go up even more as we, because it's so cold up here in Quebec, we, we make lots of soups, so we use all of our own root VegNews to make those kinds of soups.

So yeah, it's, uh, it was, uh, again, a challenging year, but just like every year, uh, at the end of the year, there's always something to fill our bellies and fill our fridges.

Mariann Sullivan: I'm getting hungry just talking about it. Soup sounds good right now. Alright, so I mean, obviously, the reason that you're on, and the reason that we're talking to you is that you are veganic farmer, and I bet that a lot of our listeners know what that means, but, but maybe not all of them. Uh, so can you just explain the basics? What veganic farming is?

Jimmy Videle: Sure. I, I really like this definition that was created. Uh, so I'll kind of spell it out for you all. Uh, vegan organic gardening and farming is cultivation of fruit and fiber crops with the minimal amount of exploitation to all plants and animal beings. In addition to the national organic standards, uh, veganic growing methods use no animal products or byproducts.

So we don't use anything like manure or urea or blood meal or bone meal or fish meal or any of that because what we feel and what we know is the production of any of these products, either harms animals specifically or is connected with the exploitation and subsequent suffering of these beings. So we absolutely don't wanna use these particular products in our fields.

Furthermore, while organic cultivation will use things like uh, organo pesticides and organo fungicides, veganic growers do not. 'Cause we believe that this specifically harms the biodiversity that we're trying to create. Which really brings us up to the most interesting point of veganics, which is we cultivate diversely to ensure biodiversity. And how do we cultivate in our fields without using all these manure?

Because all the books in the world will tell you about, and even organic books and conventional books will tell you need to use either chemicals, you need to use manure. Well, we use plants to grow plants. You know, for us it's the ethical principle of how we grow our food. It's not just how we eat. And what we put into our mouths, but how we cultivate those products that we do eat.

Jasmin Singer: So I have a question for you. When I mentioned to a couple people that we were going to be chatting with you, I had, uh, some feedback that was like, oh, well I try and buy only organic and. You know, a lot of people say that, like, especially a lot of vegans, I think are concerned about, um, the pesticides, but they're also concerned about workers' rights and things like that. And for the vast majority of people who are just buying food, as opposed to growing food, you know that that's what's available to them.

So can you just talk a little bit about kind of the organic mentality and what's not vegan about it and where you think a vegan might wanna draw the line or not draw the line as far as organic produce at the grocery store.

Jimmy Videle: Yeah, that's an interesting question and kind of an interesting dilemma. It's, uh, we don't really have a lot of options. If we go to the grocery store, all we're gonna see is conventional produce or organic produce. So the question then you have to decide for yourself is, first budget, do you have the money to purchase organic produce?

Which unfortunately in the grocery store sometimes looks worse and costs twice as much than conventional produce. Um, but if for whatever reason you do find it and it looks good, then yeah, my, my, uh, suggestion would to be buy organic because you're eliminating all GMOs. Because organic does not allow GMOs, and you are eliminating all chemical sprays.

So things like Roundup that we know of or anything produced by Dow, Monsanto, uh, which we really don't want to be eating, um, and any kind of, uh, herbicides either, right? So. That's the choice that you have.

Now, how can you sort of get and move towards a sort of more veganic way of eating? Uh, well, you're really going to either have to one, do it yourself, which is what we're gonna be talking about, what the Veganic Summit is all about.

Or you're going to go to your local closest farmer to you. We all, pretty much in our communities within maybe probably 15, 20 miles these days, have either a farmer's market or have what's called a CSA, which is community supported agriculture, where our farmers are producing US fruits, vegetables, and herbs.

You can ask them or even show them that there are these new and... new... they're not new techniques, but these other techniques that they probably maybe have heard of, but most likely have never read about in their own, if they went to say organic agriculture school or any kind of agriculture school or got their knowledge from old farmers.

For sure that they didn't hear about organic practices. So, but they are out there and it's really not that difficult to change. So how to change over. Yeah. You know, try not to think about it too much. If it's organic produce, you're eating all vegetables anyway, so of course you're vegan, uh, you're eating all fruits and grains and nuts and seeds and, and, and legumes. So you're doing everything that you can in the world that we live in.

But that's what the Veganic Summit is for. That's what we're trying to show, that there's this new, there's this re revitalized revolution and that the way that we can grow our food, that there's this new, again, it's not new, but it's, let's say, let's say newly rediscovered way of, uh, growing our food so that animals don't need to be exploited or suffer in any of our systems.

Jasmin Singer: So, I'm totally putting you on the spot. I realize this is not necessarily your specialty. But, uh, you know, we've talked a bit here and there about vegan wine and beer on Our Hen House, and Mariann and I are lucky enough to live right near a vegan wine store where all of the wine is vegan, which is awesome.

But like, is it the same thing when, when people buy organically produced wine? It's, I guess it's possible that that wine wasn't necessarily filtered through fish bladders or eggs, but it's still the same issue as the vegetables you're seeing at Whole Foods, right?

Jimmy Videle: Yeah, unfortunately. Absolutely. Well, unfortunately, again, you would just kind of need to open the communication, open the conversation with the farmer, with the winemaker, send emails, talk with the, you know, if you think of at the farm, the grapes that are grown, you know, you can pretty much ask them, so how do you fertilize your grapes?

You know, they're gonna let you know how they do. Um, same thing with the produce, is that it is possible that they are using maybe their own compost. Maybe, I know a, a couple of vegans that have a farm, it's an organic farm. Um, they share vegan recipes, but their farm is not veganic, but they do do many of the techniques that we use.

It's just that there are certain animal byproducts they use because they hadn't been able to find a substitute. And again, that's something that we try to discuss and talk about through the Veganic Summit and through other things that we work on. Um, but yeah, I mean open the communication lines, but sure, it's not necessarily that they're not vegan.

Um, again, you just need to be con, you just need to be, just need to be curious and ask.

Jasmin Singer: I know Mariann has a question. I just wanna say, when I was a kid growing up in the eighties, we only ate like frozen Weight Watchers meals or frozen TV dinners, and they were all like in these cardboard squares with the cellophane over them. And I had, I absolutely... I grew up in suburban New Jersey, outside of New York City. I had no concept of where food came from, like meat and animal products, absolutely none. But even everything else, none. And, and the fact like when you say, oh, communicate with your farmer, like there is a little girl inside of me that's like, what? You mean the food doesn't come from the freezer in the garage where we keep the Weight Watchers meals? I digress. Mariann, I know you have a question.

Mariann Sullivan: I think you make a good point that, that I don't think where that... I think that was a typical experience, particularly in the eighties, like a decade of like with very odd attitudes. But, uh, I don't think we're that far back. I think we've come some, I think people are more aware of food than they were in the eighties.

So even though we haven't even made close to enough progress, we made some progress. And speaking of progress, notice my segue. All right, Jimmy, I didn't know about this, but until we were gonna talk to you today about the summit. But since we spoke last, in addition to your book, the iconic Veganic Grower's Handbook, you have actually published a new book. Uh, Preserving Our Sacred Lands, where the wolves still howl, warbling and whipper wills, grace, the Night Skies. I use the whole title 'cause it's such a beautiful title. So, so I, I feel bad because normally I would not interview somebody about their book without having read it.

I haven't read it yet. I have ordered it, so I'm going to be reading it. But tell, tell us about the book.

Jimmy Videle: Okay, so Preserving Our Sacred Lands is really my homage to nature, to biodiversity, to saving ecosystems wherever we live. It's, it's really my passion. I became a farmer because I thought it was really the only thing that I could do to make a living that kept me close to nature. I, I didn't have the skillset to be a researcher to, to be out in the natural world to make a living or make money that way.

Um, so for me it was really to become a farmer, to have my hands in the soil and to always be engulfed in the environment and, and her and nature. And so when I realized that, um, that that was the case. I, and I was an organic farmer anyway, when I became a organic farmer and I came here, I realized where we live, we live in a very, very special, special place.

Some people live in ch called it an enchanted forest because of just the way it's situated. We're in a valley surrounded by mountains on four sides. Uh, uh, it's quiet. There's not a lot of ATVs on the trails. There's a few hunters, but not many. There's almost no people that are here. There's over 7,000 acres of land that really has, I think, five people living on it.

So it's, it's, it's extremely, extremely biodiverse. So when I was realizing where I wanted to go in my future, I mean, when I wrote The Veganic Growers Handbook, it was pretty much my entire heart and soul of what I've been doing over the last 20 years as a farmer over almost 30 years of growing my own food and putting it into something that then was there for everybody to have.

So, um, I really couldn't really take that any further. I mean, that was my sort of my coup de grâce, my, my way of, my way of expressing to the world what it was all about. So, Preserving Our Sacred Lands was even more so my passion. It's my, it's my belief that all of us should think about where we live and think about how we can protect all the lands that haven't been touched by humans either lately or at all, um, forever from now until future generations.

That there, that we've come to a point now in our world where we need to stop. We just need to stop developing. And this is what this book will show you. It will show you my journey. Uh, in this particular year, it was 365 days in a year. I did a 357 day naturalist study. I only missed eight because, well, I had to go see my parents in California and the other one, I was off away at work for a couple of days, but I was out in the field.

I was out in the field. As well as in the field that I was out in the field every day observing, understanding, listening, feeling what was going on, and sort of in a diary type format where I take certain dates and go along the, the calendar year, from October to October. Um, I, I express our relationship, my relationship, to the natural world around, around me, and taking that to a wider and and greater understanding of who we are in this world, what our place is in this world, and how we are just one other being, not the highest, not the only, not the one that can control it all, but that actually we are just like any ant. We are just like any grasshopper, we are just like any monarch butterfly. We, and even less so because we don't migrate so far every year, but we, and how that relationship allows us to understand, um, why it's super, super important to leave these lands untouched. And this is what I tried to express in this book.

And actually, um, while I am doing it, I was in the process of actually protecting it for real, as a biodiversity reserve. And now that process, very lovely, is in the hands of our provincial government and they're assessing to see if it will be actually protected forever. Um, so not only is it in my vision, in my mind that I wanted to see it protected, but now it might actually be on paper and in law.

Mariann Sullivan: It sounds extraordinary. It really does. And it really struck me how you, how you, how you tied the local to the global and everybody lives in a habitat. Like we all live in a habitat. I, I remember like we used to live in Manhattan. We, um, through many years there's, there's old growth forest at the very north end of Manhattan.

It's never been cut. Like no matter where you are in the universe, there is not just habitat, but extraordinary habitat if you find it. And that's what, that's what this is reminding me about. I'm really looking forward uh, to reading that and, you know, learning about the place where you are, which is not very far from where we both live, though, across the border, sadly, but, uh...

Jasmin Singer: We'll just get on a canoe and you know, see you, see you in a couple days. Uh, hopefully you'll have food to feed us from your veganic farm 'cause we'll be hungry. Uh, speaking of which, tell us about the summit.

Mariann Sullivan: Let's get to the summit. That's what you're here for.

Jimmy Videle: Okay, so let's, let's talk about the specifics of the summit. So the summit starts, it's an online summit. Uh, it begins November 7th. It runs Friday, Saturday, Sunday until November 9th. You can sign up. Actually everything is up to date and the registrations are now open. You can sign up today at www.veganicsummit.com.

Get your free ticket now to, to keep this in. It's free. There's over 14 presentations from around the world, from India to Scotland, to England, to Uganda, to North Carolina, California, Washington, even me, up here in Quebec. Um, and, uh. So there is many, many different, uh, again, let's talk about ecosystem. Many, many different ecosystems touched upon, uh, whether people are growing year round, whether you are a beginner, whether you are a farmer, whether you have no experience or 50 years of experience, there is something in this Veganic Summit for you.

So there's two different methods of signing up. You can sign up again for free. Um, once you do sign up for free, there's going to be a link that's gonna take you to our all access pass. So if you pay, and this year the early bird special is $37. If you pay for that all excess pass, you're gonna receive just a boatload of veganic information.

Um, online in PDF form, including my two books, you're gonna receive The Veganic Growers Handbook and Preserving Our Sacred Lands. Uh, with that all excess pass, all of that money goes to support the summit 100% so we can keep it rolling year after year, after year, after year. Um. Yeah, so that's, and oh, and, and also with the all access pass, which is super, super neat, is you're gonna get three question and answer, live question and answer periods, that you can only get with the all pass. Um, one is going to be with Jenny Hall talking about how you can grow your own protein and fertilize with proteins and asking questions about that. Um, so things like growing your own beans and nut trees and how you can then, how that actually will fertilize your soil, which is very interesting.

So using plants to again, fertilize your soil. You're gonna have Megan and Stefan who are the two, the dynamic duo who created, uh, the Veganic Summit, Megan Kelly and Stefan Golo of Learn Veganic and the Veganic Agriculture Network. Those are the two that spearheaded this, uh, summit three years ago. This was the third one, and, and very, very exciting that it's there again.

Um, they're gonna be doing a question and answer also mostly about beginning growing, and Stefan is the absolute expert on balcony growing and urban growing. He's got. Yeah, it's just so cool to see his balcony in, in, in Northern Quebec city, just thriving with tomato plants and bean vines that are touching his neighbors.

I, I think they even grow in the neighbor's kitchen up through the windows. It's very, very cool. And then me, I'm gonna be talking about biodiversity and the no spray philosophy for insects. Because again, in order for us to have biodiverse gardens, we need to have the insect populations and the, and the little mammal populations and the reptiles and the amphibians working with our gardens, helping to mitigate insect pressures without the use of any insecticidal sprays, whether it's organic or not.

Uh, so that's that. Plus there's two meetups that are run by Megan and Stefan where this is, this is really the crux of the Veganic Summit, bringing people from all around the world where we then can discuss all of our different projects, we can discuss all of our different ideas, all our different challenges, and so we have those meetups available too on, all of those are on Zoom.

Um, and again, when you and you sign up for the all access pass, so that's part of it. Then there's obviously all the presenters, which I can share some of those here unless you have any questions.

Jasmin Singer: Well, I do. I, and I am curious, uh, if this is for beginners and for serious farmers like yourself? I'm, I'm one of those two categories, but I won't tell you which one.

Jimmy Videle: Yeah, it's actually for everyone. Okay. This is, and this is what the greatest thing is, is that, so we have at least three different presentations that are talking about fertility in your gardens, doing it with plants in some kind of way. Megan specifically is talking about 20 different ways you can make compost to then fertilize your gardens.

So 20 different fa, 20 different ways, not just taking manure and putting on the garden. This is using plants to grow your plants, uh, in 20 different methods. So that's very beginner and it's, but it also takes it to an advanced stage because even I who use maybe 10 or different 11 different ways of composting, then I look at that and go, wait a minute, I hadn't not thought about that before. I, I wanna, I wanna do that next year. I wanna try that. That just seems like fun. It just seems like it would work.

Um, we have, again, Stefan doing another live q and a. This one's in the free summit where he's gonna talk about how to be a, how to grow on your balcony, how to grow urbanly.

You can ask them whatever you like. So this is a beginner's topic too. There's a small scale veganic farm in India that just started. They, uh, they're, they're a, um, uh, an organization who have taken, um, uh, trans, have transitioned a conventional farm. Um, there, they're very reliant on cattle and on cows. Uh, they taken that model of agriculture and then transitioning it completely over to plant-based or veganic agriculture.

Uh, there is a, um, a presentation that is for farmers on how to transition if you are a conventional or an animal raising farmer to growing plants instead. Yeah. Very cool. That's Rebecca, uh, Rebecca Knowles with the Stock Free, uh, Farming Group out of Scotland. And then you're gonna have, uh, Ian Tolhurst and Helen Atthow, who combined have over 90 years of farming experience.

Uh, Ian has been growing veganically for 60, and he's gonna be talking all about the use of what's called chip branchwood, which is one of our products that we use in veganic growing that is really anywhere that we live where there's a lot of deciduous trees, uh, we need to cut around the power lines, otherwise we don't have electricity to whatever.

And they just cut, they trim the trees and then they chip that, that those branches into chips. Uh, he uses the word wood chips, up north we call it chip branch wood, but it's all the same thing. And we use that specifically to fertilize our fields. And what's interesting is when I put it on maybe seven, eight years ago for the first time it's still there.

There's pieces of it still there, and it's still acting fungal. It's still working with the microorganisms of the soil. So this is one of those concepts for really, you know, really brainy agriculture, farming people who are like, wait a minute, how do I, well, there's a way, using chip branchwood.

And then Helen Atthow, who, uh, now lives in Montana, who transitioned from being an organic farmer, uh, to a veganic farmer about 27 years ago, or 25 years ago, she also wrote a book called The Ecological Farm. She's gonna be talking about her favorite fruit tree varieties, as well as talking about ways to fertilize your gardens using what's called live mulching.

So this is more advanced, but then you can think about those things in your own garden. So yes, you have everything from beginner to advance. You have people talking even about self sustainability. There's Madison from North Carolina talking about, uh, the vegan kind of having a veganic homestead or veganic self sustaining homestead where you can actually grow all the food that you need, including seeds for an entire year.

Uh, there's Sydney from California who works at an all vegan inn called The Stanford Inn in the beautiful Mendocino coast, and she is their chief veganic gardener.

Jasmin Singer: I, I've stayed there. It's, it's fabulous.

Jimmy Videle: There you go.

So one of my absolutely favorite presentations that I'm, I'm really looking forward to is, um, by a gentleman by the name of Bob Rumanzi who, uh, I met a couple of years ago, uh, through our organization, Certified Veganic. He, runs an organization called the Vegan Village Society, and he supports over 50 women village, women run villages who are creating veganic gardens in their village to feed their entire communities.

This is in the Rubanda district of Uganda. And so through us and through Vegan Organic Network and through his, uh, his contacts, he's supporting with seeds and tools and all the resources necessary so that these women led, women run communities can, uh, then feed their communities growing, just plant, growing, just the food that they need using only plants. So this is one of those very inspiring presentations, and this is one of the reasons why it is such an inspiring event, is that you see all these people from all around the world, uh, doing these things and to be able to connect live, um, through the all access pass when we all get together, uh, is really, really neat.

It's a really, really neat thing to get involved in and I hope all your listeners can come because I think you'll really find something rewarding.

Jasmin Singer: And it's at veganicsummit.com, which we will link to in the show notes as well, uh, for those of you who are driving or whatever, don't write it down. Pay attention to the road. Um, so just as we start to close, I'm curious, Jimmy, what has changed in the world of veganic farming since you were on in 2023?

Jimmy Videle: I think that it's just become more prevalent. I think it's become more known. I think there are more people becoming involved. There are becoming, there are, there are now people who are realizing that their projects that they have created are worthy of, uh, being shown to the world. So we're seeing more social media, um, social media, uh, movement. We're seeing, uh, young farmers come in and, and start their YouTube channels. We're seeing more people, uh, write publications. We're seeing more people talk about it. I we're starting to see this, this really key, important piece, which is transitioning over the animal agriculture industry, farmers to plant-based agriculture. We're starting, even though there's just this huge rise and this huge movement of regenerative animal agriculture, we're still there and we are still growing even more so. We're even more so than we were three years ago. We, we are still there showing that this is still the ethical alternative. This is the highest ethical standard of growing our own food. Now, I may not, before I die, be able to end animal agriculture, even though this is my goal and my mission, but at least I can say that we have this movement of people that are super, super inspired and there is no higher ethical standard in growing our food than growing it veganically. And in the end, I'm lying there and I'm all done and I'm seeing the light and I'm ready to travel on to that other universe and, and do other grand things as as the soul and a spirit, um, I can say that in the end I knew this. And if y all come and if y'all try it, and if you all have your own gardens or start your own farms, whatever it is that you want to do with veganics, then you'll understand it too and you'll realize there is no higher ethical standard in the way that we eat and the way we produce our own food.

Jasmin Singer: I love that so much. Jimmy, thank you so much for joining us today on Our Hen House. This has been really fascinating. It's a subject that I'm personally very interested in, albeit I, I, I don't, I don't wanna say intimidated 'cause I know you'll get in your canoe and. Come out over Lake Ontario and, and, and help me plant something on my, uh, stoop or whatever.

But, uh, you do make something that I, I am intimidated by, a lot less intimidating, and I believe in the future of veganic farming. And, and that's thanks to you, so.

Mariann Sullivan: If I can just add, I just think that's such an important point, I think for so many of us. We're just the kind of people who feel like you have to know everything before you, before you do it. And with gardening, a lot of, a lot of the plants just kind of do it themselves. Like you just stick them the ground and they, they, they, some are, it doesn't always work.

Doesn't always work. I can swear to that, but a lot of it is kind of just like you stick thing in the ground and it, it grows. Like you don't really have to know that much. It kind of knows what to do. Anyway, I just wanted to add that because I, I get intimidated by it too, because, you know, I didn't grow up gardening.

I don't know that much about gardening, but, but it's pretty miraculous when you actually do it.

Jimmy Videle: Yeah, that's the magic. That's the magic. The plants know exactly what they wanna do and they, those tomato plants, they really, really, really do wanna give you a nice red, ripe, rich, juicy tomato.

Jasmin Singer: We'll talk to you again hopefully before another two years goes by. But last, last question. I promise. If you do come back in two years, what do you hope will have changed in those two years?

Jimmy Videle: Oh, I just hope that what we see is this grand, um, this grand, uh, expansion of what it is that we're doing. I, I hope that we see, uh, more people from every corner of our globe, uh, every quarter of our, our beautiful earth, uh, decide that this is where they want to go. That this is how, how they want to grow their lives and, uh, for the people around them.

So this is what I want to see. Um. Right now we have, well, most countries represented, but how about we have, uh, 10 different growers in every country. So that would be almost a couple of thousand. So I think that would be pretty cool. We'll see what happens in two years.

Jasmin Singer: I'm down with that world. Thank you Jimmy so much.

That was the incredible Jimmy Videle. He is really inspiring. That was cool. I enjoyed that. I enjoyed that.

Mariann Sullivan: He makes me believe I can garden.

Jasmin Singer: You know what I, I was in your backyard not that long ago, and there were approximately 10 billion bees back there.

It was very.

Mariann Sullivan: I know. My goal was to just fill it with native plants and, and, and help the insects. I, I don't, I don't go so far as to try to grow food and I'll tell you it was, you know, like they kind of just all did it themselves. Like, oh yeah, it's okay with you if, if, if we grow here? Okay, we'll grow here. It is... my back...

I love my backyard.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: It's very, very tiny and it's just full of plants.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: up. Some of 'em I planted, most of 'em, they just showed up.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, it's really cool some.

Mariann Sullivan: take, I just try to take out the, um, non-native, uh, really invasive stuff.

Jasmin Singer: So let's switch gears and talk about Zoe.

Mariann Sullivan: There's a couple of, I I know that, you know, we're, I don't wanna go too long 'cause 'cause of when you always, whenever you talk to Jimmy, you always talk longer than you think you're gonna talk.

Jasmin Singer: He is because I, I wanna pick his,

Mariann Sullivan: wanna get to.

Jasmin Singer: because I wanna pick his brain about everything. That's why. So I'm like, oh, there's a,

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, yeah.

Jasmin Singer: a veganic expert on the line, but go ahead, tell us what's going on.

Mariann Sullivan: All right. One of the things which people know about, I think, is Zoe Rosenberg's trial. They've finished jury selection, they're now moving into the trial and, and I mean, not that that much has happened yet, but the thing that did happen that I think is a pretty big deal is there's a big story in San Francisco Chronicle about it. As we all know, even though these stories are unbelievably newsworthy, it's still ain't easy to get, uh, to get press. It's a good, it's a good article. I mean, it's not like... not, I mean, it's not like what I would've written, but, uh, but it really covers the issues pretty well, I think tries to be even handed.

But you know, there's definitely sympathy there. It's called Berkeley Grads chicken quote unquote rescue trial begins in Sonoma County with question of intent versus crime. They did put rescue in quotes. Even though it's clearly about rescue, but I understand why. 'cause that is the question, did she rescue them or did she steal them? But they used the word rescue. They didn't put, they didn't say theft. They said rescue. So I really like that. Um, and it does point out that, um, quote, if the jury finds her not guilty of one felony conspiracy charge and four misdemeanors, it could help DXE and by extension, animal rights activists throughout the country establish a legal right to rescue any creature they believe is treated inhumanely. I mean, just imagine if that were true.

Jasmin Singer: Wow.

Mariann Sullivan: Like, like, uh, that would be crazy. Um.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: You know, it, it, it talks about how, how, um, how the chickens, the four chickens that she rescued were she claims, but, you know, it really sounds like she's...it's true, were covered in scratches, bruises, and parasites. Her lawyer, who I don't know, um, is um, is named little, uh, I can't find his, uh, first name here. Um, but during his opening statement, apparently he argued that the evidence will reveal that what matters is not what Rosenberg did, but rather what compelled her to take such extreme measures. And for the same reason, a bystander is legally allowed to break a window to rescue a dog trapped in a hot car, her defense team is expected to argue that Rosenberg had a right to take those chickens.

That's exactly the point. And believe me, to get an a news outlet to actually talk what the point is in one of these trials is really good. So kudos doesn't getting this, uh, uh, on, on getting this, uh, this, uh, article, which, which is, you know, really does get to the issues talking about the necessity defense, um, which is basically this defense, which, which according to them deems that a person's actions were justified if they had exhausted every other option before breaking the law, which obviously is true. She has not been allowed to, um, to bring the necessity defense, uh, 'cause the court said, specifically said, that, that extending the defense to situations where that harm is to non-human beings would not be appropriate because it would open the floodgates and allow individuals to violate the law whenever they felt warranted.

No, it wouldn't, it would allow individuals to violate the law whenever an animal was being treated, including illegally treated cruelly, like, like that. It's just, it's just a total acknowledgement that people are breaking the law, the cruelty law all the time. And if we allowed people to, to steal animals who are being treated cruelly, it would, it would op, it literally would open the floodgates.

But isn't that kind of a problem that there are so many animals out there being treated illegally cruelly?

Jasmin Singer: Huh?

Mariann Sullivan: It's unbelievable.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: So it's a good article. I'm really glad to see it.

Jasmin Singer: But you did say it's not the article you would've written, and that does beg the question, what's the article you would've written?

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, well, you know, I would've just said she was that, that it was a disgrace that she isn't allowed to, um, bring the, uh, necessity defense, which is clearly the applicable defense. And so the jury is being... the jury, the, the jury can be influenced by some of the, um, testimony to, to take, bring their own conclusions.

Because the necessity defense is basically just common sense. It's like you can do something that would be illegal if you're preventing a greater harm. Uh, and the jury can still use common sense, but they're not being allowed to hear the law. I mean, that, that's one of the, and I would've said she was absolutely right and I would've said that factory farming is greatest evil ever.

But, you know, I would've said something different.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: Because I'm right and the rest of the world hasn't caught up yet.

Jasmin Singer: Well, I'm with some, you know, present company excluded, by which I mean the listeners, uh.

Mariann Sullivan: But this article did get it. I mean, they, they got the point. Here's another, um, can I do one more quote?

Jasmin Singer: Absolutely.

Mariann Sullivan: Though Rosenberg is technically the one on trial. They, um, meaning her, her defense team plan to force a deep review of the often unsavory practices occurring at meat processing facilities across the country.

It's why DXE's often viral quote, rescues are a dare to law enforcement to charge the trespassers with crimes and why Rosenberg is facing prison time when she could have settled for a plea deal. They get it.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, they get it.

Mariann Sullivan: So good sign.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. This next article,

Mariann Sullivan: Let's hope the jury gets it. That's a little bit more important.

Jasmin Singer: This next article that you wanna cover is, uh, I have many feelings about it.

Mariann Sullivan: It is crazy, right? Oh my God. Yeah.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, it's crazy. Go ahead.

Mariann Sullivan: Alright. Animal Welfare Meets Maha. Alright, this is in, um, Politico by Kelly Hooper and Sophie Gardner. And it's talking about, um, this is the, the, the lead line. HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Has made, facing out animal testing a part of his Make America healthy again. Politico's Aaron Schumacher reports

Jasmin Singer: Wow.

Mariann Sullivan: All right. So, I mean, we've kind of heard hints of this before, the stuff coming out of the NIH and whatever, and apparently he is specifically asking agencies under his purview, which is, you know, basically that governs all of our health. God help us. Um, to refine high tech methods of testing chemicals that don't involve killing animals. And the point of this article is that, is that this, though what he's saying is this is, this is because it will do a better job and the science is better, the article points out it's also got an ancillary benefit for Republicans, animal rights activists like what they're hearing. Um, and that's another opportunity for President Donald Trump to co-opt a traditionally left-leaning constituency. Now, I don't think animal rights activists are a left-leaning constituency. I think many people, I mean, this is just my experience. Many people who care about animals more, um, likely to vote, uh, on the quote unquote, left than the right because they care about other issues, not because the left is better, and neither the left nor the right politically is good on animal issues, except maybe a few like. I, I don't even think on pet issues, I don't think there's any difference. And left with, with no ability to vote on behalf of animals, a lot of people, um, who, who care about other issues that are in alignment with the left tend to vote more on the left. The, that's my, but certain that's certainly not exclusively. It's just that animal issues don't govern our voting behavior because there's nobody doing the right thing about animals.

And we have nobody to vote for except for a few people. And most of them aren't effective because they can't be all by themselves. So I don't think that's a right interpretation of what's happening. But this opens up a lot of possibilities. And it ironically this, wait till you hear this one.

This is gonna make you insane. Ironically, it's also gotten some blowback from a faction of conservatives, themselves animal rights advocates, proving my point I might add, who don't think the administration is moving fast enough and believe Kennedy's advisors are slow walking the plan to appease scientists. Among these, Laura Loomer. Talk about some strange bedfellows. Alright. Laura Loomer has apparently joined forces with White Coat Waste, which of course is, is that organization that's on the conservative, uh, I hate the word conservative. It's so ridiculous. The, on the right wing side. Um. That, uh, that, you know, has taken this, um, government should not be spent wasting its money on animal research position. And, uh, has been on the, they've been on the podcast, of course. And, um, combating. This is a quote from Laura Loomer. I'm quoting Laura Loomer. I'm quoting

Jasmin Singer: Wow.

Mariann Sullivan: Combating taxpayer funded animal testing is an issue that can completely shatter the Democrat's stronghold on the issue of animal welfare and animal rights.

I think she's wrong because I don't, like I just said, I don't think the Democrats have a stronghold. I think they've never taken principal position on animal rights and uh, and we all know that. So I think they've got this wrong, but boy, like, this is really exciting to open up this, this is going to be an area of contention.

This is going to be an area of controversy. This is gonna create opportunities for, to start talking. And, you know, once they start talking about, uh, animal cruelty in um, science. Like why would we not stop asking them questions about animal cruelty in agriculture and many other areas? Like it's all the same issue.

Uh, and stuff where you know, the Democrats and the Republicans have really been completely aligned, like on factory fighting, factory farming. I mean, they're aligned in that we're not going to fight factory farming. There are possibilities here. I swear there are possibilities here. I don't exactly know what they are, but I'm excited.

Jasmin Singer: Okay. I'm gonna, uh, just sit back and see what happens. Uh, this is definitely one of those, one of those, one of those things. Yeah. Alright, well,

Mariann Sullivan: Laura, Laura Loomer our, our new ally.

Jasmin Singer: Uh, okay. Uh, well some, this was a pretty fascinating episode. I think, just all in all, uh, I, I, I'm, I don't think that I did anything but learn. But I,

Mariann Sullivan: Well, Jimmy really brings the energy. You gotta, you

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, he is.

Mariann Sullivan: He is in, he's an inspiring guy.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, he's veganically grown. He himself is veganically grown, you could say. And I just wanna thank our listeners out there. We have some, some things coming up last Friday. By the way, Tracy Reiman, the new president of PETA.

Mariann Sullivan: Miss

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: Go back. And, because I, I mean, doesn't everybody really wanna know where, where PETA's headed? Like, like it's pretty important to anybody who cares about animals to know where

Jasmin Singer: Agreed.

Mariann Sullivan: PETA's headed.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: Now that Ingrid Newkirk has, uh, taken an emeritus position.

Jasmin Singer: And tomorrow, Friday, Gail Eisnitz will be our guest. This was our Flock Friday interview, so we had some flock members live and joining us for the interview. The bonus content was the Q and a with Gail Eisnitz, and that will be, uh, a arriving to your inbox if you're a flock member on Monday.

Mariann Sullivan: And she of course, um, has a new book out, um, uh, out of, it's called Out of Sight, uh, really it's a memoir, really of, of her extraordinary, extraordinary career.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: Investigating mostly a lot of slaughterhouses, also factory farms and getting extraordinary press like at a time when nobody else was doing

Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: and really bringing attention.

I mean, I think that we all know about things about factory farming and slaughter that we would not know if it were not for Gail Eisnitz. And the, the memoir also covers her extra just really crazy health challenges and, and it was a very moving interview.

Jasmin Singer: Very moving. Oh, and if you're listening to this, you are moving to us, not literally unless you move to Rochester, which you know, the more the merrier, but I just mean you inspire us. So thank you for being out there. Be sure to follow us and share this episode on the socials Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, or blue sky at Our Hen House, and we will talk to you next time.