The Hen Report: “Animal Rights will do that to you.” | Seaquarium Closes, USDA Failures & Cultivated Cat Food

Jasmin Singer: The Hen Report is of course, part of Our Hen House, and Our Hen House is, uh, taking over the airwaves. Well, not really. But it feels like that sometimes. Uh, as a reminder, Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays and the long form interview on Fridays. Bonus for flock members, which is some extra little content you get, comes out on Mondays.

And of course we are a podcast and on YouTube, so please hit subscribe and like wherever you listen or watch. So,

Mariann Sullivan: Somebody asked me the other day why we added YouTube. Why did we add YouTube?

Jasmin Singer: I dunno, you wanted us to, it was your fault.

Mariann Sullivan: It was my idea. I

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: I think it's 'cause a lot of pe, a lot of people listen to podcasts on YouTube.

Jasmin Singer: I mean, it's,

Mariann Sullivan: of do too. I don't know. I don't know how I got into being this YouTube person, but I did.

Jasmin Singer: well,

Mariann Sullivan: addictive.

Jasmin Singer: Yes, agreed. Uh, the, there's a lot going on right now just with the season changes. It's such a weird melancholy feeling for me. Like I, I know a lot of people have some mood shifts when it becomes winter. I feel like I'm really feeling the fall and it's, it's, it's melancholy. Like it's, it's a pretty feeling, but it's also kind of laced with, I don't know, sadness or something.

Mariann Sullivan: I still love it, but yeah, I, I think that's part of the, the autumnal mood. though I, I try not to use the word autumn. to use the word fall.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: I, I've, I've said it so many times on this podcast,

Jasmin Singer: You have.

Mariann Sullivan: say it again, but fall is an old Anglo-Saxon word that that was brought over in the very early days when, you know, it was in the language, when, when, uh, the Americas were first colonized by the British, and uh, and that was what people called it. And then the word autumn, which was, you know, also used because English became kind of a combination of French and English. It was the French version of the word, and it fell out of use in, in the UK. And a lot of people in the UK think it's an Americanism, but it isn't. I just love that.

Jasmin Singer: So I have, I have.

Mariann Sullivan: know why it doesn't have anything to do with animals. Like I, I just love that story. I think it's, language is just so interesting.

I

Jasmin Singer: have a version of that. So when I was growing up, my grandma and my grandpa, and I think my mom, like when you had a sore throat or a cough or something, they would give you a little, you know, menthol thingy to suck. What, what do you call those? Or

Mariann Sullivan: cough drop.

Jasmin Singer: it begins with an l.

Mariann Sullivan: Lozenge

Jasmin Singer: My family calls it a lozenger.

And so, yeah, hang on.

Mariann Sullivan: don't think anybody calls it a

Jasmin Singer: No, no, no, you're wrong. So, so I thought the word was lozenger and so did my brother. Like, we just started saying lozenger, and then like we grew up, we got out into the world, we were like, what the fuck is a lozenger? Do you mean a lozenge? And I'm like, yeah, or a lozenger. I mean, it's either pronunciation.

Mariann Sullivan: don't think really a lot of people use the word

Jasmin Singer: No. So I looked it up.

Mariann Sullivan: a word.

Jasmin Singer: So I looked it up and it turns out that like it, according to the internet, which is always right. It, it is actually something that like a lot of old, sort of New York Jews said, and it, it had something to do with Yiddish. It had something to do with the derivation from Yiddish. Like I, I honestly dunno if this is true, but I'm bringing it back and saying Lozenger, which is, uh, perfect timing because the, this, this tea that I drink when I'm performing in something called throat coat tea. I'm sure a lot of people know what it is. Uh, I, they now have lozengers as well, throat coat lozengers. So I've been putting,

Mariann Sullivan: them lozenges

Jasmin Singer: no lozenges,

Mariann Sullivan: All right.

Jasmin Singer: but I, I put together, I.

Mariann Sullivan: drops myself.

Jasmin Singer: I put together a little actor's survival kit kind of thing 'cause my rehearsals has have officially be begun for end of the Rainbow, which is the play that I'm doing where I play Judy Garland.

It's in December. My life is now being overtaken.

Mariann Sullivan: just prepare yourself for the

Jasmin Singer: Uh, but

Mariann Sullivan: talks

Jasmin Singer: no, it's not, it's most of what I talk about that and animal rights, that's kind of it. Like those are the only two things. But, so I have my lozenges and, and I've been doing rehearsals and, uh, yeah, that's, so that's kind of, I don't have that great of an update because that's all I'm thinking about.

I, I have been keeping my finger on the pulse of what's going on with animals, and I know that we wanted to chat about some of it today.

Mariann Sullivan: You keeping up with the pulse of what's going on in, in the, the end of democracy in the United States?

Jasmin Singer: Unfortunately, I do. I watch, no, I watch. Uh.

Mariann Sullivan: I wish I could

Jasmin Singer: I watch M-S-N-B-C every day. I watch Rachel Maddow the day she's on, we watch the news, I read the New York Times, so I'm sufficiently depressed. Don't you worry. Don't you worry you're pretty little head. We're going to the, the No Kings protest on Saturday.

Mariann Sullivan: fix it. We're gonna fix it this weekend

Jasmin Singer: Oh my gosh.

Mariann Sullivan: protest.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. You know, I wanna stay kind of around the edge. Like I don't wanna be in the middle, middle because

Mariann Sullivan: scared.

Jasmin Singer: I, I just, it's a,

Mariann Sullivan: I

Jasmin Singer: it's.

Mariann Sullivan: I don't think there's a whole lot of reasons to be scared in Rochester, but

Jasmin Singer: It's not that it's not,

Mariann Sullivan: is called for, but ca scared should not

Jasmin Singer: hang on.

Mariann Sullivan: away.

Jasmin Singer: not that, it's, it's like a claustrophobia thing, like how when I go to the theater, I need to sit on like an aisle or near an exit

Mariann Sullivan: I remember when I went to that protest, you know, in the very early years of Trump's first administration, the, the women's

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I did too. Mm-hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: was, I was in Manhattan at the time and I was in the middle of a very, of a plaza, a huge plaza with thousands of people.

And I still get heart palpitations

Jasmin Singer: I can't, that's, that's

Mariann Sullivan: was awful.

Jasmin Singer: awful. Yeah, I was,

Mariann Sullivan: to go to the bathroom too.

Jasmin Singer: oh, horrible.

Mariann Sullivan: horrible.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: but the march was great. It was just, I don't like, I I to, I'm totally with you. I do not like to get trapped in the middle of large numbers of people but I really wanna go.

I mean, I really need to go. I really do.

Jasmin Singer: We're going, we're going, we are going.

Mariann Sullivan: I don't have a good sign. Like I bought, I bought poster board, but I, I don't have a creative idea.

Jasmin Singer: Just,

Mariann Sullivan: of like to incorporate animals, but I don't know how.

Jasmin Singer: just be straightforward then

Mariann Sullivan: so give it, give it, give it some thought.

Jasmin Singer: AI what to write.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, that's so sad.

Jasmin Singer: it is.

Mariann Sullivan: What have we become?

Jasmin Singer: saw this meme thing the other day and it was like someone went into like a convenience store and he had his phone with him and the thing said like, um, what, how people who are obsessed with AI now communicate? And the person at the cashier desk was like, uh, hi sir.

How are you? And the guy like panicked and typed into his phone. What do I say when someone says, how are you? And I kind of was like, I feel seen a little bit.

Mariann Sullivan: man,

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Uh,

Mariann Sullivan: I

Jasmin Singer: alright.

Mariann Sullivan: you know, if I try to write something, I feel so stupid, like why are you wasting your time actually writing something when AI can do it so much better?

Jasmin Singer: I'm so glad that my books came out before AI was available to me.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Jasmin Singer: I feel like that would be an inner conflict I would have as well.

Mariann Sullivan: I'm not teaching this year, and I, I, I am really relieved because I did not know what to do about it. I really didn't. I mean, I know people who teach professionally probably have had a lot of conversations and instruction on it, but I was just like, stymied. You know, the first year it was easy because the, if anybody did anything in ai, it was very obvious.

It was very clumsy, but last year it was, I, I didn't know how I was supposed to tell the difference.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I know. Well, all right, let's, let's cover some stories, shall we?

Mariann Sullivan: Yes.

Jasmin Singer: Alright, do you wanna start with our good old, our good old pal Kenny?

Mariann Sullivan: Have a bunch of new good news stories, but first I'm gonna, I, you know, uh. I'm going to do the weekly Kenny Torrella report.

Jasmin Singer: That's awesome.

Mariann Sullivan: do if it wasn't for Kenny Terella? But I was particularly interested that he wrote about this topic. This is in Vox, of course, which is where he writes, Animal abusers are getting let off the hook. Trump and his Supreme Court are partly to blame.

Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: A lot of animal abuse is falling through the cracks. And what he is talking about here, he usually talks about animal agriculture, but he is really talking about something different. Here he is talking about the enforcement of the Animal Welfare Act, which is something I've been interested in for a really long time.

I, I, I did some writing on this, like when I first got involved in animal rights, this was a big issue and I became very aware of how... we all know that the Animal Welfare act hardly covers any of the animals because it doesn't cover farm animals and some other animals, but it does cover animals in research and, and I became very aware of how unbelievably poorly enforced it is and how even the Department of Agriculture's own Inspector General, which is the department... I don't even know. I, I think Trump got rid of the inspectors general, so I don't know whether this exists anymore, but maybe in the Department of Agriculture it does. I don't know it. It's the department within, in a federal agency that it's kind of the watchdog of the agency and points out, does reports on what you know the agency is doing poorly and it wrote so many reports on the failure to properly enforce the Animal Welfare Act.

Apparently it's not getting any better. In fact, it's gotten worse. I think it got a little better for a while and then, but according to, um, uh, Kenny's article, there's a larger trend over the last five years, so we're not just talking about the Trump administration, of the USDA increasingly issuing warnings over actual enforcement actions like fines.

And this has always been the pattern because the USDA is in the business of encouraging agriculture. When it regulates, um, animal research or, or animal circuses or entertainment, va, it also treats tho those things as things that it is in the business of encouraging, you know, regulating, making sure they're okay, but they, we want them to succeed.

And one of the ways they do that is to not really impose penalties when they find violations, but to, um, you know, encourage them to do a better job. So, you know, of course they don't do a better job, but of course the enforcement is terrible. 'cause 'cause who cares? A USDA spokesman wrote in an email to Vox, USDAs continuously looking for opportunities to improve regulatory compliance. Improve, not punish the wrongdoers. They just wanna get people to do it a little better... and believes that regulatory correspondence, such as an official warning can be a useful tool to encourage compliance and deter future non-compliance. Well, yeah, maybe not. I know that when David Wolfson and I wrote that article on, on, um, it was called Foxes in the Hen House on, um, animal agriculture, not on this, he, inserted in that an old Robin Williams joke. Do people even remember Robin Williams

Jasmin Singer: Of course.

Mariann Sullivan: I age everything.

Jasmin Singer: No, no, no.

He's still relevant. Believe me.

Mariann Sullivan: About how, how police officers, that doesn't have anything to do with animals, police officers in the UK didn't carry guns. I think they still don't. Um, and his, his, his joke was like, how they enforce the law is they say, stop, or I'll say, stop again. And that's pretty much the USDA. That's what they do. They just say, stop, or, you know, or, or we'll say stop again. So this is a, this is a very depressing, but it is a good article of course. Uh, and, and, uh, this seems like something that, that could be fixed, but, but this whole study has been done by the Animal Welfare Institute.

Apparently it is getting worse and worse.

Jasmin Singer: Is there any hope on the horizon at all?

Mariann Sullivan: Well, that is the thing. I doubt that there's any hope that the government is gonna do a better job, but there is hope in this. And, and that moves me on to my, um, next article. But this is something I reported on or we reported on, I think last week. And that's an ongoing thing. This is, um, this is this, uh, article in, in the Opinion section of the New York Times. Can Trump end this impossibly cruel practice? And it's talking about animal research and what, what she's talking about this by Deborah Blum, who wrote that book years ago, The Monkey Wars about, uh, about, know, the, the, the case that led to the founding of PETA.

That was a long time ago. Apparently she's still interested in the topic and, and, and this is about the fact that for whatever reason, and some people are suspicious that it's to save money or because it's anti-science, but for whatever reason there has been a move away from animal research, um, by the by NIH funding. And, um, Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, the director of the NIH, announced the creation of a center focused on one or more of the promising technologies that could provide an alternative to animal testing. And, you know, as she puts out, uh, there's a lot of speculation about motives, uh, whether it's, you know, to save money or what, but like, who cares? Justin Goodman from the White Coat Waste Project, says, and I totally agree with him here. I don't care about motives, I care about outcomes. And, you know, for whatever reason they're doing it. If they're, um, if they're reducing the amount of animal research, I'm for it. He, he, he did end up working with like Laura Loomer, we mentioned that last week.

We're on the same side as Laura Loomer. Um. You know, strange bedfellows. It's the truth.

Jasmin Singer: Animal rights will do that to you.

Mariann Sullivan: in a moment, sorry?

Jasmin Singer: Animal rights will do that to you.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, it sure will. We're in a moment, he said, that we should not let slip away, and I totally agree. If there's any progress on something, let's grab it. And so the article goes on to say, let's not let political polarization blind us to the end game. A reduction in the use of animals in research. Animal research has saved countless lives, but a concerted federal push to reduce its use and support reasonable alternatives is long overdue. After all, some 90% of drugs that appear safe in test animals fail in human trials. A reminder that other species aren't necessarily good models of human systems. So even if they're doing it to save money or because they're anti-science, a lot of this science is really bad science. Like, like we've moved on to this, you know, the whole organ's on a chip and all of the technology is a much better way. And one of the reasons this continues is because of the, the companies that have money and the, and the researchers who have monies and careers invested in it, not because it's good science.

So, so that's, that was like a bad news story that kind of like is connected to a good news story.

Jasmin Singer: Okay. I like the pivot. Uh, I think the next one is a great news story about the Seaquarium.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Wow. This Miami Seaquarium

Jasmin Singer: Amazing. Close it.

Mariann Sullivan: Lolita lived and died there. Uh, just lo, the Miami Seaquarium has just been one of the focuses of animal activism for as long as I can remember, and constant animal activism and, and constant protests and lots of people focusing on it. Lots of legal cases brought like just a real fight.

I mean. When you think of how much work it takes to close down one, one facility, it's just heartbreaking. But then when you think about the fact that, okay, it's, it's over. It's done. It's closed. They sold it. Pretty good news.

Jasmin Singer: You know what this makes me think of last weekend. We went to the Strong Museum of Play here in Rochester,

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Jasmin Singer: We took, we all went and, uh, there was this area with like fake fish, like kind of, uh, almost like animated fish in a giant tank, but they looked real. It looked like you were at an aquarium. It was very realistic.

It was beautiful. And I said something like, wow, like, look at how we can make anything ethical. Like the kids were loving it. They were just all over it. Then we turned around and there's a tank with real fish in it.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, that was totally disappointing.

Jasmin Singer: I know. And there was also something super creepy at the museum, which is that, you know, the, the grocery store, Wegmans started here in Rochester and it's like a big institution of Rochester, like Wegmans!

Mariann Sullivan: It's a small city um, so people get excited about, it, like grocery stores.

Jasmin Singer: So there's a tiny, like miniature version of Wegmans for little children in, uh, the museum where everything is like their size. Like it's tiny little carts and tiny little shelves, and like, it's all just shrunk and it's made to look like a, a real sized grocery store. And there's like a meat section.

And you know, there's like, and I don't mean this in a vegan way, but there's like fake meat, like

Mariann Sullivan: yeah,

Jasmin Singer: of it, you know, and I just.

Mariann Sullivan: plastic.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Yeah. Like unfortunately not the fake meat that we would have for dinner, but it was the creepiest thing, but like, we're just normalizing that for little children. I, I don't know why it creeps me out even more than...

Mariann Sullivan: There it, it, because they were, they were children and they're being just acclimatized to this idea that that's what you buy and that's what you eat and it's made out of plastic and you know.

Jasmin Singer: A really long time ago, I think in 2007. We took a trip to San Francisco and I remember there was a store that had taxidermy in it and then the, there was a children's store next to it and the children's store had stuffed animal taxidermy. Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: The same

Jasmin Singer: Same store. And it had like the stuffed animal version of it, and it just feels the same thing to me.

Mariann Sullivan: It was, it was the craziest thing I've ever seen. It was these little like stuffed el elephant heads mounted on the wall.

Jasmin Singer: Know it's just, it's similar. It's very similar to me, you know, as the Wegmans thing, because like you're just normalizing this horror show. Unreal.

Mariann Sullivan: Children have... a lot of work has to go into, into enculturating children into what we do to animals. And it's probably getting harder and harder for them because, you know, there is more information out there. Not enough, but, but more and, and, yeah. Uh, well, we're making it sound like the... the museum is great.

Jasmin Singer: Oh yeah, sure.

Mariann Sullivan: And it was huge. It was completely packed with children, which I don't consider a plus, but, you know, it was, they, they were having a good time and there were a lot of... there was one section that was kind of, didn't have any kids in it, but it was all about, had, like, it had all toys from the fifties and sixties, which was really kind of fun.

And you enjoyed seeing the My Little Pony exhibit, uh.

Jasmin Singer: Well, that that was from the eighties. Yeah, it was the Toy Hall of Fame, which is pretty famous.

Mariann Sullivan: There was one other animal exploitation thing, which we just weren't sure about, but I'm sure if we talk about it, somebody will write to us and say, it was totally exploitative. We shouldn't have done it. But they have a butterfly garden

Jasmin Singer: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: It's a, um, I mean, it is, you know, you walk

Jasmin Singer: The conservatory.

Mariann Sullivan: It's, it's big enough and, um, all sorts of real plants in it, but it's just full of butterflies and like, I don't know whether that's a good life or a bad life. There's probably a lot of things there that I just don't know about. It was... but it was not like seeing animals like really confined.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: You know, like you see in some other places. So it was hard to figure. It was way too crowded. There were too many people around, but it was so beautiful.

Jasmin Singer: Think that's the problem. The biggest problem, I mean, it is of course exploitative inherently just it.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. No, I mean from a strict vegan point of view, I think it's just like, you know, they're not ours to put on display.

Jasmin Singer: Right. Yeah. And I was really worried about the quality control of like, you know, I could see a child like clapping their hands to like smash a butterfly or something. Uh, so

Mariann Sullivan: They should probably ban children from that museum.

Jasmin Singer: I think that's an excellent business decision for the Museum of Play for sure.

Mariann Sullivan: be delightful.

Jasmin Singer: At the very least, have like curmudgeonly

Mariann Sullivan: tell anybody

Jasmin Singer: lesbian hour or something. Curmudgeonly lesbian hour. There should be a curmudgeonly, lesbian hour of everything, in my opinion.

Mariann Sullivan: Or you know, more than one hour.

Jasmin Singer: Sure. Uh, all right, so let's move on.

Mariann Sullivan: All right. And this aquarium closed. Yay.

Jasmin Singer: Yay.

Mariann Sullivan: have to talk. Tell,

Jasmin Singer: That's really good.

Mariann Sullivan: I mean, it's not totally clear. Said all the animal exploitation is over there, so there's still some left, but, but the big stuff is definitely over and they have to figure out what to do with the animals.

Jasmin Singer: I have to say something. My tea bag opened.

Mariann Sullivan: They have to find sanctuary for them.

Jasmin Singer: I just took a sip of my tea and it was like all like tea.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Not in, not that interesting...

Jasmin Singer: Okay.

Mariann Sullivan: Sorry.

Jasmin Singer: That's all right. Go ahead, tell me something more interesting.

Mariann Sullivan: This other article from Vegconomist Omni, I think this is from the uk. It doesn't say in the article, but I'm pretty sure it's the UK. Omni Pet files first patent for cat food that blends cultivated meat and plant proteins.

So it's here, or, or it's in the uk or it's going to be in the uk. I don't think it's on the market yet. So yeah, I mean, this is the holy grail of, of veganism.

Jasmin Singer: I really hope that this.

Mariann Sullivan: for people who, who are against cultivated meat. But if you're gonna use cultivated meat for anything,

Jasmin Singer: Cat food.

Mariann Sullivan: for the kitties.

Jasmin Singer: So wait, what's the status with where, where it is now and when? When, when does it arrive in my house?

Mariann Sullivan: Um, the UK opened a regulatory path for cultivated ingredients in pet food in 2024 catalyzing pilots in early sales. That's why I think it's in the uk.

Jasmin Singer: Okay.

Mariann Sullivan: Costs continue to fall in supply scales, Omni, that's the name of the company. Omni's founder invented hybrid could become a credible first market for cultivating meat, offering a familiar eating experience for cats and a lower impact option for owners. Um, so it doesn't like, it doesn't say it's on the, it's on the market yet. Um, I don't know what the timing is.

Jasmin Singer: You know that that Unicorn Pate, which is like vegan cat food.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah. From Wild Earth.

Yeah, my cats were like, uh...

Jasmin Singer: were too. However, we, we had bought a lot of it and so we,

Mariann Sullivan: a lot of it

Jasmin Singer: We mix it in with the dog food just like a little bit. And the dogs are crazy for it.

Mariann Sullivan: Poor dogs.

Jasmin Singer: I don't even know if that's healthy for them, to be honest, but

Mariann Sullivan: Why wouldn't it be?

Jasmin Singer: Just like we put a little bit, because we have so much of it.

And then our friend was,

Mariann Sullivan: It's cat food and dog food, but that doesn't mean it's just, it's food

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, we a friend of ours.

Mariann Sullivan: a little rich if you gave them just that, because cat food tends to be a little richer than dog food. But other than that, I think it's fine.

Jasmin Singer: I just hope that,

Mariann Sullivan: I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get in trouble.

Jasmin Singer: Oh yeah, for sure. We'll get in trouble for the butterflies too.

Mariann Sullivan: Will be mad about that.

Jasmin Singer: Uh, yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: All right, I have, I have something else I wanna

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, go for it. What is it?

Mariann Sullivan: Alright. This is from a Flock member, Goose Rodriguez. Um, it's his, his new book. It's called Someone, Not Something, Alguien no Algo I don't, I might have pronounced that wrong 'cause it's in, um, Spanish and I don't speak Spanish. And I just think this is the coolest thing. And he, um, he, and I guess his wife, I'm not sure exactly, he, he's the named author, but he says that, um, she had a, she, he wrote it with his wife, Sylvia Rodriguez. And, um, all proceeds from the book are being donated to their, their hometown dog Street rescue in Chihuahua, Chihuahua me, Mexico, called, I'm, I'm emphasizing it because you love

Jasmin Singer: I have a few of those in my house right now.

Mariann Sullivan: Called Oh, again, the Spanish Refugio Sacramento. So all proceeds go to them. It's available on Amazon. And the thing that's really cool about it is that it is, um, bilingual.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: uh, the whole story done in English. And so this is a great tool for kids who are learning Spanish or, kids who are learning English.

And, uh, I, I love that he did this.

Jasmin Singer: I do too.

Mariann Sullivan: um, let me just read a little, I'm gonna read. Do you mind if I read the whole, um, dedication? 'cause I kind of loved it.

Jasmin Singer: Sure.

Mariann Sullivan: To my beautiful and talented white Sylvia. Your kindness, compassion, and deep love for animals have shown me a more empathetic way of living. Through your example, I learned to break free from the barriers of indoctrination and to see animals for who they truly are, fellow travelers on this shared journey called Earth. To my dog, Chuchito, your unconditional love, goofy personality, and strong opinions reveal to me the intelligence, complexity, and deep capacity for love that animals possess. Not everybody appreciates dogs with strong opinions. I like that. To all animal activists, thank you for your tireless efforts in fighting for a more just and compassionate world for all beings. And finally, an apology to all animals for not choosing the vegan path sooner.

Jasmin Singer: Oh my God, that gave me the chills. That's so great. Love it. All right, well, I think we're just about done here, but I wanna remind people that the Veganic Summit is November 7th to ninth, and you can sign up at veganicsummit.com. Very cool program there. And I strongly encourage people to join because fruits and vegetables are, as we have recently talked about on Our Hen House, grown in non-vegan ways with various byproducts. However, there is a vegan way of doing everything, including growing vegetables and fruits. So this is a three day online event from November 7th-9th.

Mariann Sullivan: Free.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: can, You can get an extra part that you pay for, but the basic program is all free.

Jasmin Singer: It's all free. I love that. That's my favorite, uh, price that there is. Okay. Uh, thank you so much for tuning in and for subscribing to Our Hen House. And we'll talk to you next time.