Fighting Back Against Anti-Farmed Animal Legislation with Animal Policy Alliance

And we're gonna talk, be talking both about how you get it and how you fight it, depending on what the legislation is trying to do.

And just a quick reminder here before, before we start that, about the Our Hen House podcasts, Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays, and the long form interview, which is this, on Fridays. And the bonus for Flock members comes out on Mondays. And we're a podcast and we're on YouTube.

I know I say this every week a million times, but we are, so please subscribe and hit like wherever you listen 'cause it really, really, really does help us out. Uh, today we are so delighted to be doing the latest installment in this series of podcasts we've been doing, um, in coordination with the Animal Policy Alliance.

And we have three guests here today. Brian Hackett serves as Director of Government and Community Relations at Associated Humane Societies, which is New Jersey's largest animal sheltering organization. And there he leads animal welfare policy initiatives and builds community partnerships.

Amit Dhuleshia is a co-founder of Strategic Action for Animals and the founder of The Action for Animals App. And he has been a full-time grassroots advocate for the past two years, working to drive collective action in San Diego to fight animal exploitation through grassroots campaigns for systemic change.

And Hannah Truxell is an attorney and senior policy council with the Humane League.

She, of course, has been on before with, with our previous Animal Policy Alliance interviews and she leads a team of researchers who focus on providing support, this is part of The Humane League, providing support for people who are working on state, federal, and local policy, doing research, drafting model legislation, and legislative and campaign strategy.

And, uh, I'm so excited to hear about how, how we're doing with crate bans. 'Cause we've been working on 'em for 20 years, I think. And it never ever ends. Uh, and we never, ever win, but we certainly haven't lost yet. Uh, welcome to all of you. Amit, uh, maybe we can start with you. Uh, I know the campaign you are here to talk about is ongoing and I think most of our listeners have some idea of what the EATS Act is, or whatever the hell they're talking, they, they keep introducing this act into Congress and they keep calling it different things, but it's basically the same thing.

But can you take the little bit of a daunting task of just summarizing this whole thing for us, the Crate bans that went into effect in, in California, and then how the industry is trying to undo it with this legislation.

Amit Dhuleshia: Yeah. Um, so the Prop 12, which was passed I think in 2018 in California, gave minimal space requirements for veal calves, caged hens, and also, the pigs basically who are in gestation crates. Uh, so that was passed in 2018. And I think 2024, it became law in California. And ever since they passed in 2018, the pork industry has been trying to kill it basically ever since. Um, so, you know, it passed it two, two times. They tried to go to the Supreme Court. Supreme Court voted in favor of Prop 12. Um, they've been trying to kill the EATS Act since. And then the latest incarnation again, is to try to kill it, by attaching it to the Farm Bill. Um, so the Farm Bill expired, I think in 2024. It got extended to 2025 , till September 30th. So they've been trying to attach this to the Farm Bill. So what what Prop 12 did was basically, it governed interstate regulation basically. So, um, the current Eats Act is trying to kill those regulations basically. So that's where it is right now, and they're trying to attach, so that's what we're in there fighting. I don't know if I made that. I kind of, it was long-winded answer, but hopefully that's clear.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I, I hope it's clear. I, I mean, it was crystal clear to me, but of course. I know about it. I think probably most of our listeners know a lot about it too. It is very confusing though. This is no shade on you. It's confusing and I'm sure that's one of the goals is that to make, just to make this very as complicated as possible, uh, so that people really think it... they can't understand it.

But yeah, I think you did a great job. Hannah, do you wanna add anything to that? Like from a national point of view, like whether this is a, a Humane League and an Animal Policy Alliance, uh, cause that's one of your most important focuses?

Hannah Truxell: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so working to defend the cage free laws like Proposition 12 and Massachusetts question three, um, are integral to the work of The Humane League. We worked really hard with staff and volunteers and supporters in those states to pass those ballot initiatives. Um, they had strong support from voters in those states, and so it's very important to us that these laws continue to stand. Um, and it's very important that we engage our APA members on this particular issue. Um, as you've heard in other other podcast episodes, you know, our APA members focus a lot on their own states and their cities. Um, but the particular issue here around the Farm Bill is that we're able to unite our APA members around one issue, and that is working to keep bad, what we call EATS language or anti prop 12, language out of the Farm Bill. Um, and ensure that no standalone bill passes that would undo these laws like proposition 12 or question three. Um, so it's a key goal of ours and it's really an issue that has ignited our supporter base and our APA members as well.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Brian, I, you know, uh, from my understanding, New Jersey does not have a sales ban, which means that there is a crate ban. And that's something we really wanna get into detail with you because I know the fight to pass that crate ban in New Jersey was epic and went on and on and on and on, and you finally pulled it off.

But since it doesn't have a sales ban, would you say in the future, that's going to be one of your goals? And it's, it, it, even though that's not going on right now for New Jersey, it's something that could happen in the future?

Brian Hackett: I would love to see it and, uh, I think anything is possible. Um, I think from a strategic reason why it was not included in the New Jersey legislation, the way it was in California and Massachusetts, that there was the, um, the production piece, which was the confinement, and then there was the sales piece, which was not allowing the sale of the products from any place within that state, that the, the animals were, were cruelly confined. We didn't have that sales piece in the New Jersey law, um, largely because getting it done as it was just on the confinement side, was enough of a heavy lift and was such an ongoing effort for so long that we said, you know, politics is the art of the possible. Let's get done what we can get done. This has dragged on for a decade now, which is just ridiculous. And probably a lot of your, uh, followers, you know, are aware of, you know, governor Christie making the late night talk shows and it kind of almost becoming somewhat of a joke. And fast forward, thanks to the wonderful coalition that we had put together, um, we finally got it done and it, we got a little creative with it.

The original law, or the original bill, I should say, only included pigs. We expanded it to veal. And so it's no cruel confinement on veal calves or mother uh, pigs. And, um, it finally got done and it was a little unconventional how it got done, but it got done and it was just on the production side. So I do hope that at some point in the future we can expand it to hens as well and cage-free eggs as well as the sales side. We'll see what happens today on Tuesday, uh, November 4th with the state elections, you know, with New Jersey being one of the two states with, uh, uh, a gubernatorial contest on the ballot today, which will really determine a lot of what, what can happen for animals in the next four years.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, what can happen for, for a whole lot of things. We are recording this, by the way, on election day, so we're all a little tense, so just so you know. All right. I wanna get, I really wanna hear more about that fight in New Jersey, but first I really wanna get back to the sales ban issue since we started with that with Amit.

And California is one of the few states that has a sales ban. I mean, this is really like, new Jersey has taken the first step. California, as is so often the case, California is frequently the lead in progressive legislation took the first step first. Well, not first, actually, Florida did it first, which, you know, throws my whole theory out, out, out the window.

But, but forget about that. Um, so California did the, but did the, the triple, the, the hens, the pigs, the, the, the calves. Um, they were the first on that and, and they were the first to do this sales ban, which is absolutely key. Absolutely key. You can't just have everybody move to Idaho, um, and, and do it there.

Uh, 'cause that's exactly what they'll do. And so California really is the state that has a lot to lose with this legislation that's bouncing around Congress in every different possible way they can make it bounce. Um, and I understand that your organization is very grassroots. I wanna hear a little bit more about that and tell us why you decided to take on this huge issue as, as the fight that you really wanted to get involved in.

Amit Dhuleshia: Well, I mean, we work on multiple issues, but this is a core Animal Policy Alliance issue. And specifically for me, I think this would have, uh, crazy, like... 'cause it would not only kill Prop 12, but it would kill all animal agricultural laws, environmental laws, it would kill a lot of interstate regulations basically. So if you're gonna focus on a fight, uh, we need to be all coordinated. The very few amount of animal activists we have, we all need to be coordinated to make sure that this doesn't go through. Because it's not just California, obviously it's Massachusetts, but it's all states basically. So I think you can imagine we have a, a foie gras ban here in, uh, California and with this legislation that would kill that as well, basically.

So

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I think it's something that pe many people don't appreciate that, that it's, it's not just about the, the sales ban on, um, uh, of these products, but, but it would cover all sorts of, they had, they kind of had to do that in order to make it seem like they weren't just going after this one little law.

But as a result, they could really undermine an enormous amount of progressive legislation, couldn't they?

Amit Dhuleshia: Right. There's, um, a Harvard study that, um, probably Hannah can talk about in the future, but, um, but it has a list of all the laws and it's not just covering these couple things that we're talking about, but it's a huge law list of laws that would be undermined by this across the country, basically. So it's a big fight.

That's why we should all be focused on trying to get, get this, um, get this killed basically.

Mariann Sullivan: So what was your first step? Like, what was the like? All right, there you are. You have a small grassroots organization, from what I understand, if, is it, is it, is it local in San Diego? Um, and, and, and so how do you like, I think this is the, perhaps the most important question I'll ask today, because we want other people to think about doing this sort of thing.

What's your first, like, what do you do? Like, alright, this is terrible, now what do I do about it?

Amit Dhuleshia: Yeah. So I mean, as part of the Animal Policy Alliance, uh, from my perspective, we should be focused on trying to get the reps in San Diego, one trying to get the reps in San Diego, San Diego County, and California to be basically against, uh, killing this law. So that would be one thing, which is create a meeting with your congressmen, uh, if you can, uh, and talk to them and see where they are at, and then see which, where your county, uh, congressmen are, where your California senators are basically. Try to, try to work with them. Try to set up meetings and tell them that, hey, you don't want this thing. Have your people who are part of your grassroots call these people and tell them, Look, we're, we're really against this law. So that would be the first thing. Uh, the second thing

Mariann Sullivan: Can, can I just interrupt you for a second and 'cause, 'cause you mentioned going to your state, the representatives in your state legislature as well, even though this is federal legislation.

Amit Dhuleshia: Not state legislators, but your, um, senators,

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, okay. Okay.

Amit Dhuleshia: Yeah, that's what I meant. So, uh, yeah, so your, your local congressman, um, and then also your senators basically. Um, so that's the first step. and, uh, you know, I personally met with Scott Peters' staff, and then Hannah and I met with one of the Democratic, um, uh, congressmen who was the only Democrat in the state who was not coming out publicly saying that they're against us this. So we did met, meet with rep, Representative Gray, and tried to convince him that, Hey, you, you guys need to be against this and need to be publicly voicing your opposition for this. I can go on more, but that would be

Mariann Sullivan: No, I, I know that I, I would like to ask like, about their response. Like, I mean, I know that, you know, you go talk to legislators and this is one of the, I'm sure Hannah will, will agree, one of the biggest misperceptions that people have is the fear that they won't be nice to you. They'll always be nice to you.

Um, that would be really hard to believe they're not gonna be nice to you, but do you actually get any, I mean, like, were they, were they open to your arguments or were they, were they just like rolling their eyes? On like, like what kind of reaction did you get?

Amit Dhuleshia: So some of them are, you know, they have been in the past, so like Hannah and team have created a nice list of like, 'cause this has been going on for a while, right? This is not the first time. So they have a nice list of like, who's been for it and who's been against it. So obviously like my, my congressman is Scott Peters, so I know in the past he's been supportive of us basically. So it wasn't like a heavy lift. He, they were just basically like, Hey, we are against this Eats act. And uh, so it's not a heavy lift for, for that. But we do have, for example, our San Diego County, we have, uh, most of our, uh, representatives are democratic, and it's not a partisan, you know, there are Republicans who are against this as well, but, um, all of our, all of our, uh, democratic, uh, congressmen have come out against it.

And we have one Republican who is, um, probably, uh, against us basically. So we've been now working on him and trying to get members to try to call him and see if we can turn him basically.

Mariann Sullivan: Uh, this is a totally unfair question, but my understanding of what's going on in Washington is it's completely paralyzed and it is com like, like nothing happens and we, we have no idea what's going on and, and we're falling to pieces. Like, how do you, how do you do this and stay serious about your issue in the context of this crazy time that we're living through?

Are they listening about animals?

Brian Hackett: Absolutely. I, I mean, you know, listening to what Amit is saying is... I called every single congressional office for the New Jersey delegation in regards to being opposed to the Eats Act, which is what we're all talking about here and being engaged. And, um, so there's three democrats and, uh, nine, uh, I'm sorry, three Republicans and nine Democrats...

Mariann Sullivan: I was gonna say what happened in New, in New Jersey?

Brian Hackett: the New Jersey delegation. But what's interesting is, is every single office I spoke with, thanked me for reminding them about the issue and they immediately, I mean, some, some of them, it was the same day I got a call back and they said, Congresswoman so-and-so has signed on to the Anti Eats Act letter.

Thank you very much. Now, I'm not a particularly important person, but it sometimes takes just one or two phone calls from constituents and it's even better if you can say you represent an organization that is in the district or in the state. And, you know, these people are so busy, there's so many things on their plate that, you know, we had prior signers onto Anti Eats Act letters that their staff said, Oh, thank you for the reminder. Yes. Yeah, the congressman's gonna get right on it.

And they just called down to the agriculture staffer and they get on the letter. And so it, it's... don't underestimate how powerful one simple phone call can be. And then, you know, don't overthink, um, you know, that, you know you're gonna be, you know, they're gonna be mad at you or they're not gonna be receptive or any of that. Their jobs are to take your calls.

Their jobs are to route these types of discussions. So, in literally less than a week, between my calls and a couple other, you know, people I reached out to, to call Congressmen and Congresswoman for New Jersey. All 12 signed on to the Anti EATS Act letter. It it was literally five or six days.

I, so, and, and that's not, you know, a testament to me, it's just a testament to how powerful a couple calls can be and how the staff needs to be reminded and how these Congress people are very busy and how, you know, that little bit can make a huge difference. And so, you know, you replicate that in New York, you replicate it in Delaware, you replicate it state by state by state.

And the next thing you know, groups like The Humane League working on this nationally have, you know, 170 some odd Democrats signed on and however many demo, uh, Republicans signed on. And it's critical mass, you know, and that's chipping away. So how to stay motivated, how to stay positive, it's focusing on the incremental progress and, and notching, these small victories that all augment to killing the Eats Act again, God willing, which has been killed year after year after year.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, no it's not... we should make clear that they have been trying to do this for a long time and have repeatedly failed. So this is hardly, you know, so often we get into fights that. Uh, like they, they just seem like an unbelievable uphill battle. This is not one of them. I mean, this is, has been won before and there's no reason it can't be won again.

Brian, I am, I I feel bad 'cause I I didn't realize that you, in the materials that I got, I didn't realize that you were this active in this particular fight as well. Because, I mean, I obviously in California they're defending their own legislation. I mean, it's really, they, they have this really terrific argument going in.

They're the federal government's trying to undermine what California has actually voted on. You don't have that kind of, kind of background or, you know, legislation that you're defending, but you still feel comfortable like just going in there and saying, regardless of where of New Jersey's position, this is really bad legislation.

Just do you talk about like, you know, state's rights kind of of arguments?

Brian Hackett: Yeah. Well, I mean, there are so many arguments against EATS Act. You're, you're absolutely correct that California has a particularly special vested interest in this because of those reasons. But one of the strongest talking points I think, in opposition to this Eats Act, is the far reaching impact it could have on, you know, numerous state-based and local animal protection measures, environmental measures.

I mean it, so that's what makes the argument so strong is I was able to just in my little, you know, 30 second soapbox with each congressional office staffer, say, look, you know. Congresswoman so-and-so has to get on this and be against this because all of the laws that our legislature in New Jersey passed that we worked so hard on for years could be impacted by this.

You know, it's something known as preemption. The federal government is preempting all of those other things because if the Eats Act were to pass, it negates those state and local laws. So it's not just something that impacts California, although it'd be horrific for California given, you know, their vested interest, but it would have ripple effects across the whole country.

So I think that is one thing that makes the arguments against this so strong, which is why there's so much bipartisan opposition to it.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. And Hannah, do you feel that that's a role that the Animal Policy Alliance is particularly useful on? Because I would imagine a lot of grassroots animal, animal organizations and even the big one, I mean, they're not familiar with all of these arguments that are outside the animal implications of this law.

Like, because how could they be? That's not their bailiwick. Is that one of the things that the Animal Policy Alliance tries to provide in, um, encouraging animal organizations to oppose this?

Hannah Truxell: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I, I mean, I think going to Brian's point, it's, it's really important to keep in mind that this is, if passed, would be federal overreach, full stop. Um, and you know, Amit was talking about the Harvard report that came out, um, in the last few months, and they also provided one back in 2023 when the Eats Act was first introduced.

And we're talking about thousands of laws that have nothing to do with confinement. So a law, um, for example about, um, testing for zoonotic diseases for like, importation of cattle. Like a law like that would be impermissible under a law like the Eats Act.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, that's a, that's a fairly compelling topic at the moment.

Hannah Truxell: Right, isn't it? That and federal overreach, frankly.

I I mean it's, it's, um, just so blatant in its steamrolling of, of state and local laws, um, the detriment of, of all of us. Um, and that's one of the things, you know, in my meetings with congressional staffers that I've tried to really drive home, because when you go in there representing an organization called The Humane League, they're like, oh, you know, this is another animal advocate.

You know, they're just gonna talk about animal rights or, you know, hone in on Prop 12. And I, I am there to partly talk about that, but there's also this much bigger issue here that we're, we're not talking about, which is the, the breadth of impact that a law like this could have on public health, on confinement laws, on farmers, frankly. Um, it would have, you know, disastrous impacts on farmers that have made the, the financial commitment to transition away from gestation crates or battery cages. And even talking about zoonotic diseases, um, you know, if those laws were undercut or, or killed, they could have an outbreak in their herd like we're seeing with, you know, bird flu and that would be disastrous. Um, so upholding these laws really benefits all of us, not just, you know, the animals and animal advocates.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. I mean, anytime we ha we can get anybody else on our side, it's crucial because it is so often so difficult to do it. I mean, one of the things I was intrigued with by, with the, um, with what I read about what you've done is that you, you've also gone to the Democratic party. I think is that right?

In trying, uh, the, the, the institutional party and trying to... can you talk a little bit about that? Rather than just going to a legislator, going to the party itself?

Amit Dhuleshia: Yeah, so we did both. Um, so, uh, there's a California Democratic Party and there's one at the county level as well. Uh, you can pass resolutions stating that, Hey, the California Democratic Party is against the Eats Act, or the San Diego County Party is against the Eats Act.

The idea of the, of this is basically to put more political pressure on potential democratic, um, congressmen or Senator who may be against it and just create more publicity around this topic. So we've been, you know, we started actually six, seven months ago around this, and it took a long time. Uh, so we just had to find somebody who would be, who is a California delegate, you know, they have their own process basically to kind of have them bring this up. So we wrote the piece for them, they were supportive. And just recently we passed it at the county level. So San Diego County just passed a resolution that says the San Diego County Democrats are against this, uh, Eats Act. And in February it'll be now moving to the, to the state level. We're hoping that it will pass at the state level. We, it should. Um, but that would be a resolution passed saying, Hey, the California Democratic Party is against this Eats Act. And like you had mentioned before, it's not a huge amount or uh, it's not a huge amount of lift, basically. Uh, you just have to find the right person to bring this up and who's supportive and that one person can bring it up. The California Democratic Party is generally supportive since all of our senator and besides one, one, and all of our congressmen besides one has been publicly supportive. So it's not a controversial for thing for them to be supportive, but it's just another way to kind

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah,

Amit Dhuleshia: uh,

Mariann Sullivan: Just, it, it just creates a little bit more comfort for them in feeling like they're on, they're on the right side here because, I mean, I, I don't know how legislators do it. They, they have special personalities that they can balance 492 things and pretend they, they're experts in all of them.

But clearly we know, that could not be possible, but, so I would imagine creating that kind of comfort, Well, the party's for it, so it must be okay. Is is is really helpful. Alright, Brian, I'm, I had mentioned that I wanted to talk not just about the Eats Act fight with you, but also about the actual crate ban, because I think a lot of states have passed Creek Bans, but a lot of states have not.

And it seems to be, as you were pointing out before, that's the first step. And then the next step is the, well, the next step for you is gonna be chickens, clearly. Um. And, and then after that, the next step is the sales ban. And that's how you actually change the industry and the country. And you, like it was the fight of the century.

I still remember, um, uh, uh, I won't say, I won't use a bad word, but Chris Christie, uh, who's not my favorite politician, I have to say. And like, it was done, it was a done deal in New Jersey and he, he vetoed it. It was unbelievable. So then you had to jump back in and start all over from the beginning after he took it out from under you.

So tell us about, about that process. What kind of coalition were you working with? Who, who did you have to bring on board in order to get this, uh, get this um, through again and actually get it all the way through? And were there some unlikely allies there?

Brian Hackett: Yeah, there was one very unlikely ally actually. Um, so, you know, I think there were, there were a lot of stop and goes and there were, a lot of, um, discussions, I think at least amongst, uh, some of the leaders of the very big coalition that was involved about, you know, we have to do something different here because if we keep on doing the same thing, it's gonna be another 10 years. And, and so, you know, that that's something with coalitions and, and, and campaigns is you're getting to a, a, a bottleneck for whatever reason, we have to be strategic and improvise and figure out changing the playing field or else you're gonna play on the same playing field and, and get nowhere. So, um, the coalition was pretty vast. I mean, uh, you know, I mean, dozens and dozens of state, local, national animal protection organizations, environmental groups, animal shelters, I, I mean, you name it, it was part of the coalition. And as wonderful and as amazing as that coalition was, it wasn't moving the needle.

Not for any fault of our side or the coalition, but it was just political loggerhead loggerheads. It was, you know, we were up against the, you know, the, the legislative calendar and a two year legislative session, and we were up against, you know, just, it was just like legislators just felt, you know, some legislators just said, you know, we've been talking about this for 10 years. You know, we, we, you know, this really, you know, just like, really like, do we have to even deal with this? So

Mariann Sullivan: You don't have to keep talking about it. Just do it and then you don't have to talk about it anymore.

Brian Hackett: Exactly, and that's been my argument on a number of different animal rights bills that I've worked on. I mean, the shark fins was, that was one. I mean, my, my argument on shark fins was if Texas could do this, why can't New Jersey? But, you know, so, but getting back to the confinement bill was what ultimately was the game changer.

And I, I, I just want to provide the disclaimer that I am well aware in many states this would never happen because of the dynamics going on, but I think it's a testament to thinking outside the box and being willing to talk to very unlikely allies. Or, or not allies per se, but unlikely potential partners with getting something done. Bedfellows, right. Politics makes strange bedfellows. So, um, I had presented, and Hannah, you may remember this because you were involved in the coalition on all those calls. Um, but I had spoken with my coalition co-leader, and I said, do you think it's crazy for me to sit down with the New Jersey Farm Bureau? No one had ever talked to them before. And she said, you know what, we're, we're at a log jam here. Nothing else is breaking the log jam. So it can't hurt. I mean, the worst that happens is you leave a meeting, you wasted an hour and nothing gets accomplished. Right. Or there's no change. So I kind of presented it to the coalition and I, I wanted to make sure, you know, there, there weren't any, you know, glaring concerns or any, um, opposition to this idea within our coalition. So what I ended up doing was, long story short, I had, I had known the lobbyist for the Farm Bureau, um, from just being around the state capital. And he's a nice guy, you know, he is an honest person. Obviously, we disagree on a lot of things, but you know, okay. So it used to be in politics, you could sit down with people you disagree with, and that's kind of, I'm fine talking to people I can disagree with. And so we, we got together for a cup of coffee and I literally sat down and I said, aren't you sick of working on this? Aren't you just sick and tired of dealing with this? And I said, what can we come to to finally get this done? And this discussion blew me away because, um, they had either gotten to the point or they were fine with, or whatever thinking change where, you know, there used to be a lot of opposition.

And finally their lobbyist just said to me, you know, we don't, we're fine with a statutory ban on cruel confinement. We're we're there. We're fine with it. And I was like, what? What!? I, so what, okay, so what, what, what strings are attached here? Where, where's the but, where's the if, where's the, you know? And, and he said, look, we just are on the implementation side, we don't want the humane standards regulations in, in the title, you know, uh, 23, I believe agricultural codes different.

And the original legislation would tinker with all of that, which they didn't want tinkered with. So what we walked away from that meeting, without getting into too much of the nitty gritty, grainy, was that we were getting what we wanted, which was a statutory instate statute, a legal ban, a law prohibiting the cruel confinement of veal calves and mother pigs.

And then the question as far as, um, implementation and oversight, well, we could compromise on that if it meant getting it done and getting a statutory prohibition. And so that is ultimately what happened. The Farm Bureau lobbyist and I, we worked together on language. We went to the Senate environment chairman, uh, the committee chair, and he said, well, if you two are in agreement, I'll move the bill.

And that's exactly what happened. And so I, you know, I'm making it sound a little more simple than it was, but you know, in, in, in, in the context of a, a nearly 13 year battle, a 13 year campaign, the fact that what finally got it done was sitting down with an unlikely bedfellow and having a conversation and seeing if something could be hashed out... I mean, look, we as animal rights activists and advocates, we want it all yesterday for animals, right? And if we could all wave a magic wand, we would do it and get it.

Unfortunately, we're operating in a democratic system where there's give and take and there's opposition and compromise. So, you know, what do we have to do to get the most that we can get? And, and, and a victory for the animals without sacrificing things we can't sacrifice. Right. So, um, that's

Mariann Sullivan: And, and to, to be fair, I, I just think that that's a reason that some people can work with legislation and some people aren't suited to it. Like, you know, they're, to, they they can't, it, those kind of compromises are not, not necessarily saying they're the wrong thing to do, but not what they wanna do. But some people can work with legislation and face the fact that there's gonna be compromises.

Animals are gonna continue to suffer. I just am going to make, be able to make some progress here. You have to be that kind of person to work in this realm. It's not, it's not for everybody, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be for some people. I am a little curious. Can we just go back to two details?

'Cause I, I am wondering what were those compromises on implementation? I assume that was just a matter of delaying how long it was gonna take before this went into effect. But also on oversight, like on on enforcement.

Brian Hackett: Yeah. So the, the, the two main pieces were, there would be, uh, uh, pretty harsh penalties written into the statute for violations. So that was altered in terms of the violations and the penalties provisions, which, you know, we felt that that was something we could compromise on. We're getting the ban and if we want to tweak around the edges, is it this amount of fine or that amount of fine, okay, whatever. Um, there's still penalties and there's still fines. Um, the other piece of it, which I wasn't particularly crazy about, because I like, you know, being able, on any level of government, being able to do something for animals, but the original legislation had it, it specifically allowed municipalities to go further. Um. Which, you know, I, I don't know exactly how they would have gone further. I suppose there's ways they could have, but they didn't want a patchwork of, you know, well these five towns allow this amount of spacing and these 20 towns allow this amount of space. So they just wanted consistency in, you know, having the state standard in this, in the bill, in the statute, and not have municipalities have a patchwork of all different additional things.

Which again, was something like, well, we weren't really working on local efforts anyway. So that was, you know, ideally, yeah, we wouldn't have had it, but

it wasn't really anything that impacted the overall effort. So we said, okay, we could give that away

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Brian Hackett: still got everything we wanted.

Mariann Sullivan: So, uh, has the law been been fully implemented at this point, or is it still being phased in?

Brian Hackett: By now it should be fully implemented. And um, the good news is that after, after nearly 13 years, there's very few entities that, um, were still using the gestation crates. So the ones that still were pretty

much had to be phased out. Um, and of course, the benefit of passing the law was making sure that no new entity would be able to come in and open business and start using cruel confinement. So that's the benefit of passing the law even if you have, you're, you're in a state where there's not, like producers is you're, it's proactive and preventative.

Mariann Sullivan: Well that, I mean the very first one was Florida, the gestation crate ban. And the, one of the reasons they chose Florida was because nobody was raising pigs in Florida. And that's how you can get it passed. I mean, and look what it has led to. You can hardly say that was a bad, uh, that was a bad policy. I understand that the other reason that they chose Florida was there was somebody in Florida who was willing to give them a million dollars. And so that they said, okay, we'll do Florida

Brian Hackett: That always helps for a campaign.

Mariann Sullivan: Money talks. Um, well, alright, not to bring up a painful subject, but I just can't, I mean, it's Our Hen House. So I have to ask, so what about chickens?

Because let's face it, New Jersey has a lot of chickens.

Brian Hackett: Yeah. Um, so, you know, the, the chickens were never included, unfortunately, from the very start years ago when the whole effort started. And I think a part of the reason for that was because, to your point, it, it just started with gestation crates. Right. And, and then it, you know, then veal calves were added to some initiatives.

So I, I, what are the numbers now? There's like a dozen that banned gestation crates. There's 11 that banned veal crates. I, I think there's, it's around the, those numbers. Um, so yes. Um. The, the egg laying hens is, is, is, is a very big issue. And I think we're at the point where thanks to all the amazing progress that's been made elsewhere, with working with the egg producers and you know, the great work that like The Humane League and other national groups have, have done with the egg producers.

I think we're at a point where, you know, the industry is, you know, the legislation needs to catch up with where a majority of the industry is. And I think that's a very strong point to be making. You know, where we are now in, in the political world is maybe five or 10 years ago it would've been a much heavier lift and that's maybe part of the reason it was left out.

Let's just get gestation crates done, let's get veal crates done. You know, that incremental progress, that's sometimes very painful for us because we want to do all of it yesterday. Um, but I think where we're at with hens and, and, and, and eggs is, is may even be an easier lift now than it would've ever been five or 10 years ago

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Brian Hackett: because of the

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Brian Hackett: progress in the industry.

Mariann Sullivan: Well, it, I mean, it's a, it's an inspiring story, not only because there has been success, but because it was so hard won. I mean, this is not easy, but each time you have a victory. Maybe the next one gets a little easier. Amit, one thing I wanted to ask you, which, which we're getting to the end, and I haven't asked you yet, but I know that you have this app, and I assume that that has to do with how you were, how you were gaining support and, and new supporters.

Can you just tell us about it and how it works and how people can find out more about it?

Amit Dhuleshia: Yeah, so it's, uh, so in my previous life I used to be in computer, computer, uh, related field.

Mariann Sullivan: You can't have, I mean, how old are you? I mean, you can't have that many. I'm not actually asking you that...

Amit Dhuleshia: I'm actually in my 40s...

Mariann Sullivan: Come on!

Amit Dhuleshia: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: Are you seriously? All right. Sorry.

Amit Dhuleshia: No, no,

Mariann Sullivan: Wow. I I had you at about 25.

Amit Dhuleshia: Okay. Yeah. Thank you though. Uh, um, but, uh,

Mariann Sullivan: You also look very young, Brian and Hannah.

Brian Hackett: Well.

Amit Dhuleshia: Well, if I take off this hat then uh, you probably know that, that I'm forty, um, but I don't know if you've heard of this app called Five Calls, but it's a

Mariann Sullivan: No, but that means nothing because I, I've, I haven't heard of anything.

Amit Dhuleshia: Well, yeah. Well this is this, this is this app that makes it super easy to call your, um, congress, like any of your federal representative based on your location on progressive left-leaning issues, basically. Um, so, what I was trying to do is trying to get this Eats Act onto that app so that people can, uh, call on this who are not animal rights people. Uh, that didn't go anywhere. So then I was like, okay, let me just build an app specifically for animal, uh, rights issues that would make it super easy. It would just have a list of issues you put in your location and it will find your federal, your city, and your state officials, and you can just click on the issue, read about it, and then easily call, uh, your, your,

Mariann Sullivan: That's great. Yeah.

Amit Dhuleshia: So just released an app. So thank you for giving me the plug here. Um, but, uh,

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Can you tell, can tell people where where they can find it?

Amit Dhuleshia: so It's, yeah. So it's on the App store or on the Play store? Uh, it's called Action for Animals. Um, so you can search for it. Uh, the idea is obviously we're in kind of legislation, policy, you know, our organization is mostly focused on that. So, um, uh, we're trying to, what we're trying to do is build it so that it's make, makes it super easy to call. 'Cause a lot of times you hear when people talk, they're like, Hey, call your rep. But for the normal person

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Like who, who is that?

Amit Dhuleshia: How do I do that?

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Amit Dhuleshia: thing? So

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Amit Dhuleshia: 'cause you, and like you can log onto it, see which animal issues are there, and you can click on it.

And we also have sup support for emails, so you can actually easily send emails. The idea is to, uh, gamify it a little bit as well, uh, in the next couple of, uh, months so that we can collaboratively take actions and build a community around it. So that's kind of the idea around it. So it's relatively new, um, but since

Mariann Sullivan: What's it, what's it called again?

Amit Dhuleshia: Action for Animals,

Mariann Sullivan: Action Animals. All right, that sounds great. That sounds amazing. Um, and Brian, the other thing that I didn't really get to that I wanted to ask you about, I know you work for Associated Humane Societies. I like, and, and in, in my knowledge, that's, that's primarily a huge dog and cat.

Uh, mostly dog and cat, uh, great adoption, well welfare organization in New Jersey. Um. What is it, how, how far has it gone into the farmed animal issue? And, and, and why did it decide to also embrace what this is potentially a controversial issue?

Brian Hackett: Yeah. So, uh, well my work on the confinement law in New Jersey was prior to my being with this organization when I was with the Animal Legal Defense Fund.

Mariann Sullivan: Okay.

Brian Hackett: This organization supported the legislation, um, as you know, one of the many, many supporters and coalition members, um, during the process. Um, but so, you know, as New Jersey's largest animal protection organization that, you know, runs four animal shelter facilities, has dozens of municipal animal services contracts.

We also have, um, an animal refuge, a very large animal refuge in South Jersey that has rescued exotic animals, farm animals, you name it. Um. I believe that organizations like mine that exist in every state around the country, um, if, if they primarily maybe deal with dogs and cats or animal sheltering, they have a pivotal role to play in having a voice on broader animal rights, animal protection issues.

You know, we, we... as, as a vegan for a very long time, um, I always found it frustrating when, you know, the local or the county animal shelter is doing an event to, you know, to help, you know, companion animals and then they're serving animals on, on a plate at a gala or at an event. And it's, it's inconsistent ethically.

It's inconsistent, practically. And so I think when organizations, any organization that is engaged in helping some type of animals on some type of level. There needs to be a lot of introspection and consideration about how they can be a better voice for all animals. Because at the end of the day, I think we all agree if there's not an ethical, mindful approach to all animals, than all animals could be subject to suffering and exploitation. and, and that's a fact.

And so, um, I think, you know, as a member of the APA with The Humane League, one of the reasons I wanted to be, uh, involved is to inspire and motivate these types of animal, uh, sheltering animal welfare groups to make that transition into animal rights. Um, because it, it's all tied together.

And when I started in animal welfare, I remember there was a very large animal shelter organization in New Jersey whose executive director took positions on all sorts of animal legislation, wildlife, farm animals, cruelty, oh, you name it. And they became a statewide leader, and their donors appreciated it.

And they were able to educate the community about these issues because the community already looked to the local animal shelter as kind of a leadership voice in things dealing with animals. So why not augment that? Why not expand that into being a voice for all of these other animals? Everybody bleeds, everybody suffers, everybody is hungry, everybody... so we're, we're all living creatures here, so we're all in the same boat. And I think that is, you know, where we need to lead by example and be that voice and play that role. Um, and, you know, with things like fighting the Eats Act, it made a difference, you know, to to, to be a statewide organization that was contacting legislators and saying where we were, what, what, what our work was, why the EATS Act would impact we do in New Jersey.

It, it, it's very meaningful. So all of your listeners, probably, if they're not involved in, you know, a, a national animal rights group, they may be engaged with their local or county animal shelter or the local Humane Society. There's ways to be empowered and engaged in any of these ways and, and groups.

And so it just, you know, inspiring people and encouraging people to think outside the box and, and be engaged where they are. You know, I always love the saying, you know, think globally, but act locally. You know, we're thinking globally, going to the San Diego Democratic Party and asking them to pass a resolution on the Eats Act that's thinking globally, but acting locally and all of those things it's, it's, it, it, it builds up. It's, it's, it's, um, I, I believe very much in, you know, the inertia that you, we build, you know, doing these things, you know, never underestimating, Well, it's just one call, it's one email, it's one meeting, it's one resolution. Well, yes, but you know, now New Jersey has 155 local bans on the puppy mill pipeline, and now we're in a much better position to get the state law passed this the next month.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Brian Hackett: It all builds up.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I could not agree with you more. I think that, I mean, especially, uh, with everything you said, but especially the, the, the necessity of, of the, our dog and cat shelters and, and wildlife groups that the necessity that everybody recognized that, that all farmed animals are, are among the animals that we have to advocate for.

That it, that's the gateway. It is the gateway into which people walk and, and start it'ss what happened to me. It's what happened to so many of us that, that you walk through that and then you understand it and, and so many of those organizations just close that gate behind the dogs and cats and don't think about any other animals.

So that's very inspiring. I was very inspired by, by what you said about that, Brian. Thank you. And, um, I think we're gonna have to call it there. This is a great conversation. Um, I've learned a lot. Uh, and I have much more hope, which, you know, it's election day in 2025. It's, you know, maybe this is the turning point, guys.

Uh, you're, you, you've made me a little happier. And, and thank you so much for, for, for joining us. Hannah before, just, just remind people where they can find out about the Animal Policy Alliance and we'll also put those links in the, um, in, in, in the show notes, of course.

Hannah Truxell: Yeah, so you can follow, um, the Animal Policy Alliance at animalpolicyalliance.org. You didn't ask for this, but I'm also gonna give a plug for our Farm Bill advocacy form. Um, so folks can take, adv, can take action on this issue that we've talked about today by going to, uh, thl.link/2025-farmbill. uh, it's easy to use, just putting your information in it, um, will automatically send an email to your legislators.

Mariann Sullivan: Great. And, and also, uh, just a reminder to people that the Animal Policy Alliance is, I believe, constantly hoping that more and more people will be starting up organizations and contacting them for advice. Um, so if you're out there thinking, well, maybe I could do this too, uh, you can, in fact, and Hannah will tell you how.

Hannah Truxell: Same place, uh, animalpolicyalliance.org. And there's, um, a contact us form on there where you can reach out, um, about starting an organization. Um, and we'd be, we'd be glad to work with you and, and thrilled to work with you. And, um, to add on to what you were saying, Mariann about the hope, uh, our Animal Policy Alliance members are really what give me hope on a daily basis.

Um, you all do inspiring work and, um, if not for your work, you know, change wouldn't be possible. So I'd like to invite anyone who's interested to, to reach out.

Mariann Sullivan: Thank you so much and thank you to all of you for joining me today. Uh, before we go, I just wanna remind everybody that uh, this is the moment that we're starting our end of year fundraising campaign at Our Hen House, and we've been operating for 15 years, my God. Um, and released 862 consecutive weekly episodes of the flagship podcast and 125 episodes of the Animal Law Podcast.

And I'm exhausted myself. Um, our end of year fundraiser is crucial to these efforts. This is when we raise all the money and we do have to like pay, you know, like Vicki to to do stuff. People have to live. And this year we had this incredibly generous situation. All donations will be tripled. So for every dollar you give, we'll get $3 until the end of the year.

Uh, so I know times are tough right now, and I know this is not for everybody. And boy, I have heard of two people losing their job just in the past week. It's freakish. But we, so, so we understand if it's not possible, but if it is, we would really appreciate donations of any amount. If, if you wanna join the flock, you can do so, um, with options starting at $10 a month or a hundred dollars a year, or you can donate whatever you can.

That's at ourhenhouse.org/support. And, um. And thank you so much for everything you do. Thank you for, for tuning in. Just remember if you're a gardener or dream of being a gardener and you really don't wanna put any manure in your veggies, don't forget to attend the free online Veganic Summit, November 7th to 9th at veganicsummit.com.

And, uh, thanks so much for joining us and for tuning in. And don't forget to subscribe on your favorite pod catcher or on YouTube. And, thank you so much to Vicki Beechler and Jen Riley for all of their help in producing this podcast.