The Hen Report: “We Have You and You Have Us” | Thanksgiving Thoughts on Advocacy, Literature & Vegan Proteins

Jasmin Singer: Before we, uh, get to all of the wonderful things we wanna discuss today, including a book review that I'm super excited about with a very special guest reviewer. Just a quick reminder about the Our Hen House podcasts, and we just wanna take care of some business first. So we have the Rising Anxieties episode of Our Hen House comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report, which is this, on Thursdays, the long form interview on Fridays, and the bonus for flock members comes out on Monday. This Monday actually, our, uh, bonus content is gonna be Mariann and I complaining, and who doesn't wanna listen to that?

Mariann Sullivan: This, this is rooted in something we tried to do years and years and years ago. Um, I don't know. We didn't have a pod... Did we have a podcast at the time? I don't know.

Jasmin Singer: Oh, I don't know either. Hmm. We wanted to call it

Mariann Sullivan: called, you can, you can say it.

Jasmin Singer: The Vegan Whine

Mariann Sullivan: The vegan

Jasmin Singer: the, was it? It might have been The Daily Vegan Whine. I don't remember. But we were just gonna pour wine and whine, but about like vegan related things. But then.

Mariann Sullivan: We were talked out of it.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Our friend was like, you cannot do that. That would,

Mariann Sullivan: That would be awful.

Jasmin Singer: yeah, so,

Mariann Sullivan: if you're paying money to, to support Our Hen House,

Jasmin Singer: You get to hear us complain.

Mariann Sullivan: Hear, hear this

Jasmin Singer: Well, this is just gonna be, this is just.

Mariann Sullivan: We haven't done it yet, so we don't know how awful it

Jasmin Singer: No, but this is just going to be a, you know, thing kind of Thanksgiving themed. Like for example, I was just picking up my dog Murray from the groomer, 'cause he, you know, he's a hair dog, so we have to take him to the groomer. And uh, there were all these people and dogs in the waiting room and they were just like kind of being the people were kind of like, you know, being cutesy and, and they were like, oh, that dog wants some Turkey. Ha ha ha ha.

And I just was like, this is so fucked up. Like, what? Like it's a fucking animal, you know? So we're just, we're gonna be,

Mariann Sullivan: I seem to remember that the one time we recorded it, which we thought was great, until we, we had our friend listen to it and she said it was terrible.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: We laughed a lot. Like we were really, we, we were either really funny or we thought we were really funny or

Jasmin Singer: One of those.

Mariann Sullivan: were drinking wine and you know,

Jasmin Singer: Right. One of those, one of the,

Mariann Sullivan: We're not going to be drinking wine for this 'cause we're recording it during the day, and I don't think it's the time in my life to start day drinking. I really don't

Jasmin Singer: No, no, no. I just did a little cocaine and call it a day. Just kidding.

Mariann Sullivan: Anyway,

Jasmin Singer: We are a podcast. We're on YouTube. Please subscribe and hit like wherever you listen. So, uh, just a couple other things and, and hang in there because we have a really great show, so I don't want you to go away. We know that this is a, it's a difficult time of year for a lot of people, uh, and especially those of us who care about animals.

Like we just made light of that story I just said, but obviously there's something really deep and, and, you know...

Mariann Sullivan: Well, that's what we do.

Jasmin Singer: off-putting and, and disorienting about it. We're just so grateful that we have you and that you have us. We're in this community of like-minded people around the world together, and, and we hope that our podcasts and our resources continue to provide you with, with solace and encouragement, especially if you're listening today on Thanksgiving and you're on your way to some horrible, oppressive family

Mariann Sullivan: Or you might be on your way to a

Jasmin Singer: event.

Mariann Sullivan: vegan Thanksgiving, which congratulations.

Jasmin Singer: In which case, why didn't you invite me? Whatever. It's fine. I'll get over it.

And so since Thanksgiving is really centered around gratitude, we, we really didn't wanna miss this opportunity to express our sincere appreciation for you because you're, you're it, you know, your, your dedication is what keeps us going.

And we couldn't do this work to change the world for animals without you. And thank you because thanks to your support, this has, it's been a, a real growth and momentum, you know, filled year for Our Hen House, since launching our new podcast format over the summer with, with three episodes each week, plus bonus, our reach has expanded dramatically.

We have over 28,000 watches and listens across our revived YouTube channel and podcast platform just last month. And in total we have released 874 episodes of our flagship podcast.

Mariann Sullivan: Since the very beginning

Jasmin Singer: That's a very, yeah. And 125 of the Animal Law Podcast, and that has collectively reached 3.2 million listeners.

Mariann Sullivan: I don't even understand how that could be true. Are we sure that's true? Because

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, we're sure.

Mariann Sullivan: that's really amazing,

Jasmin Singer: It is amazing. 3.2 million listeners worldwide. And, and your,

Mariann Sullivan: It must be listens.

Jasmin Singer: well, your partnership with this helps to make it all possible and it really means a lot to us. So thank you. And as is our Thanksgiving tradition, we were able to re-air our, uh, radio, a radio play Sanctuary. Which we, we recorded in 2017 in New York City when we performed it on stage, it is by John Yunker.

And we did put that up this, this week. So if you haven't listened to it or if you enjoy listening... yeah, it's so great. And John and Midge, uh, Midge Raymond is John's, uh, partner in life and, and in in business. John and Midge have a new book coming out this year. It's called Animal Writes Prompts and Practices to Guide the Animal Writer's Journey.

Mariann Sullivan: Writes, W-R-I-T-E-S.

Jasmin Singer: And so, uh, in Animal Writes, this is how they describe it. You'll learn tips for how to portray animals empathically and authentically, as well as how to approach publishing and your readers. And John and Midge are two of my faves. They're, I love their brains. They're going to be joining us on Friday, December 5th to talk about it.

That's our flock, uh, our flock First Friday meeting. So if you're a member of our flock, you can join us for the live interview and the q and a afterwards.

Mariann Sullivan: I just think portraying animals in books is incredibly hard.

Jasmin Singer: It is.

Mariann Sullivan: You either, you either humanize them or, or you just write about them and you don't really bring them. It's very, very hard. And interestingly enough, our book review today does is tackling that exact, uh,

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: Question. I have not read the book yet and I'm really eager to find out, uh, more about it 'cause I hear it's really good.

Jasmin Singer: And speaking of, uh, John Yunker, John wrote a short stage play about the disturbing tradition of the annual, quote, unquote pardon, of the turkey tradition at the White House, which I know makes you insane, Mariann.

Mariann Sullivan: Totally.

Jasmin Singer: this year

Mariann Sullivan: spoke about it on, uh,

Jasmin Singer: I know.

Mariann Sullivan: Anxieties this week and not the White House. I don't even know whether they did it at the White House. But in, in all these state, uh, state governors, uh, doing it too, like just caught on.

Jasmin Singer: Disgusting.

Mariann Sullivan: have heard that the White House had two turkeys and they only pardoned one of them.

I might have made that up.

Jasmin Singer: Cool. Well, uh, this year John Yunker decided to create an animated version of the stage play, and we are linking to it in the show notes, and he's hoping it will get people thinking about the underlying cruelty behind Thanksgiving and, and, and so please feel free to check it out in the show notes and share it with your non-vegan friends.

It is the season not only for giving, but also, uh, for advocating, isn't it? I mean, there's just so many opportunities for us, and one opportunity for Our Hen House is Giving Tuesday, which is coming up this Tuesday, December 2nd. As you probably already know, Giving Tuesday is a very important day for nonprofits like Our Hen House because it, it's, uh, like a, um, like a global generosity movement, and it comes right after the largest consumer purchasing day of the year, I think, or one of the largest, Black Friday and and and Cyber Monday. So we hope you'll join us this year by making a tax deductible donation for Giving Tuesday. Just visit ourhenhouse.org/support and you can help us there.

And we do appreciate any amount, any contribution. But the coolest thing is that between now and the end of the year, all donations will be tripled because of this end of year fundraising match that we're in right now. And if we meet our goal of raising $20,000 by the end of the year, which is what we hope you'll help us with, then we get triple that, which is amazing.

So if you're not part of our flock community yet, this is the best time to join. I think the vast majority of our flock, uh, especially the annual recurring donors, join around this time of year membership options with perks start at $10 a month or a hundred dollars a year.

Uh, we have not increased that in a very long time.

Mariann Sullivan: And don't forget that one of those perks is to get to hear Jasmin and, and, and I

Jasmin Singer: whine. Yeah. Perfect. And, um, you, you could also,

Mariann Sullivan: Who could turn, possibly turn that down?

Jasmin Singer: And you could also join as a supporter for $5 a month, but any, any donation is greatly appreciated and all of them are tax deductible. So again, it's ourhenhouse.org/support and we will send a reminder email on Giving Tuesday.

So, uh, thank you so much for listening to that. It's, I know it's like a spiel, but it's an, it's a really important one. And, and I, and I'm appreciative of you.

Speaking of appreciative, I wanted to tell you about something, Mariann and I, I haven't told you any of this yet, so this is all gonna be fresh news to you.

Uh, I, I feel like I had a little bit of a revelation in the last week. Um, I, I genuinely do like, and I don't make fun of me too much because this feels v

Mariann Sullivan: of

Jasmin Singer: vulnerable. Okay? So, okay.

Mariann Sullivan: I, I, I don't wanna promise too much, but I doubt I will make fun of you.

Jasmin Singer: All right. So, so the, the end of the story, I'm just gonna tell you the end of the story and then I'm gonna go back. The end of the story is that like, I feel like I have sort of turned over a new leaf. Like I feel like I want to go about my relationship to my life differently. I really want to hold things more lightly and focus on the things that really, really matter and not live in so much fear of what could be.

And you know. I'm a human being, so it's, it's gonna be, it's gonna wax and wane as it does, but I wanna tell you how I got to that, because there's a vegan connection here. There is a poet who I've been, uh, I've been following for, for years, whose name is Andrea Gibson. I think a lot of people, I, I, I'm just gonna guess that 50% of the people listening to this know, who know who, um, know who Andrea is.

Uh, Andrea goes by... well went by they, them pronouns. Andrea passed away in, uh, very, very recently at 49 years old of a very aggressive form of cancer. And, um, and there is a new documentary about Andrea and it's called Come See Me in The Good Light. And it's on Apple tv and I think it's, it's like incredibly popular.

I think it's like the, the number one movie right now, or, or maybe it's the number one documentary on Apple tv. And, uh, I watched it and one of the producers of it was Tig Notaro, who I adore and who I've gotten to interview and who's vegan. And uh, and I just like, I adore Tig Notaro so much. And this, this film,

Mariann Sullivan: I mean, does everybody know who Tig Notaro is? I don't

Jasmin Singer: Standup comedian, brilliant, all actor, you know, producer, um, just an amazing creator, just truly amazing.

And so. TIG was one of the producers on this film, and Tig was a really long time friend of Andrea Gibson. And, uh, so my best friend Erica was also watching this documentary, and there's this really sweet scene in the documentary where Andrea's like, rescuing a spider. And I would've just watched that and been like, oh, cute, you know, and, but, but Erica Googled whether Andrea was vegan.

Which I'm like, okay, that that would never have occurred to me to Google it in that moment. But apparently Andrea was vegan and like an animal rights vegan. And.

Mariann Sullivan: As is Tig.

Jasmin Singer: As is Tig. And this was, uh, not just so we, just so that we're clear, this, that was not explicitly brought up in the documentary, but I'm like, oh my God, I followed this poet for like... I love, I love Andrea's work.

Andrea is like, you know, a, a lesbian and, and the, the film is really about Andrea and their partner, Meg, who's also a poet, and it was just about like, kind of the end of Andrea's life and like coming to terms with death. And I know I'm making it sound really heavy and you will cry, but it's, it's probably the most hopeful, beautiful, powerful documentary in including hilarious.

Like there's this one scene in it that is so funny. I think it's the funniest scene I've ever seen in any documentary. I, I'm, I'm gonna just leave that there as a little vegan Easter egg for you to find, because I don't wanna say anymore about it, that part. But anyway, so after the documentary was over and like Andrea's whole thing was like, I, like, I can't believe I got to live this fantastic life. And like this was a person who really struggled too.

And, um, but, but they were like, I can't believe that this is my, the life I get to, to live. And, and they said something like, and I'm ruining it, but it was something like, when I die, I want my last thought to be if I could just have like millions of more seconds like this, like just in this life. And, and it was kind of about like becoming friends with death in a way. And obviously it was also really tragic and devastating, but, um, Andrea just really focused on having people around, like loved ones. And then something funny to me, Mariann, is that when, when, when Andrea died at the end it was, um, in the, like, bedroom with, with them was was their wife Meg.

If they or I, I don't, don't know if they were married, but their ex, and their, and like some close friends and, and their parents. I was like, oh my God, are you like, do you get, I think maybe two exes were in there. I was like, okay, this is a lesbian love story clearly. But anyway, so, uh, so I was very moved afterwards and then I listened to Tig Notaro be interviewed by Anderson Cooper, who has a podcast about grief, which is really fascinating.

And, and something about listening to Tig talk about Andrea, I don't know if it was TIG that changed me or if it was the documentary or if it was like listening to Tig who was one of the people in the room when, when Andrea died. Like just like restating how like Andrea's death really inspired her to Tig to go about her life in a much more intentional, powerful way of like focusing on what matters and like kind of recognizing like death doesn't have to come up and, and surprise us. It, it could be something that we don't have to live our life in fear of.

And, and then I started to think, what would it look like if I didn't live my life in fear of losing people? Because I, that's how I like exist every second is like basically I'm motivated by the fact that I fear losing the people I love.

It's a huge thing for me and for so many other people. And it's just felt really huge. And one of the things that, what the big thing that I wanna focus on is how lucky I am to have discovered this authentic truth about animal rights so young. You know, like, sure, not young enough, but the fact that I get to live my life in accordance with my values, to me is such a beautiful thing that when I hear people in the, you know, the dog grooming lobby, just being assholes about turkeys, I also think, wow, they, they don't have this gift yet.

You know? And I mean, obviously there's like a little bit of a slippery slope here. Like, is it, is it like pretentious? Do I get to be like, I'm gonna give you this gift, you know, but focusing on the, on the goodness of it, it makes me feel so happy and so much gratitude.

Mariann Sullivan: I, I, I totally hear you. I, I, I, I sometimes think like that, but I, I don't express it quite as well to myself and I don't remember it all the time. Oddly enough, i don't wanna spend time on this 'cause we need to get along. I just read this book called The Blue Castle, which is by the woman who wrote Anne of Green Gable.

So it's a very old book, and it was all about how, uh, a woman who, a very young woman who led a very difficult life and had a very difficult family, mistakenly found out, and I hope I'm not giving spoilers, but you know, that she was going to die and how, and so she didn't have to be afraid of growing up to be an old maid and, and, and being unwanted.

And she just didn't... and when all that fear left, she was able to do so much more.

Jasmin Singer: Wow, that's so cool.

Mariann Sullivan: Fear is, fear is, yeah. I wish I could let go of it more. I think it, you know, I, I think it's useful. Fear is useful.

Jasmin Singer: Sure. And, and there.

Mariann Sullivan: The, the world is a dangerous place and I think it just probably, you know, we inherit it, it's a, it's, it's, it's, uh, something that has protected us and so it's born in us, but yeah, letting it go really helps.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. I'm, and I'm not, and I don't wanna be like gaslighting even myself here, you know, like, you're totally right. Uh, and just like last, last kind of point here is that I love that this revelation came from two vegans. Like, to me, that's not a coincidence. To me, the fact that like these two human beings, Tig and Andrea, like both of whom were integral to this change that I'm feeling, had also found this great truth about veganism and animal rights and, and, and authenticity.

That it's like, of course, something so profound came from that.

Mariann Sullivan: I, I wouldn't, I mean, as, as painful as it is, and everybody listening to this knows how painful it is to be aware of what's happening to animals. I, I wouldn't, like, there is no way I would give that up.

Jasmin Singer: Right. Well, we have a couple other things to, uh, be grateful for.

Mariann Sullivan: Through these, uh, we, you know. Vicki has yelled at us that this is supposed to be 20 to 30 minutes. We're almost at the 20 minute mark, and she hasn't even come on yet. But I do have news stories that

Jasmin Singer: Okay.

Mariann Sullivan: I'm gonna go through them really fast

Jasmin Singer: Do it.

Mariann Sullivan: They're all about things we should be giving thanks for. One of the things we should be giving thanks for is, uh, Animal Rising in the UK. Uh, so they, we've been talking about it, they've had this series of prosecutions, uh, of activists who disrupted the grand national horse racing horse race, which, you know, when every year horses are injured and die in it. And, um, they've had I think three of the, uh. Of the, um, of the trials and in every one of them, the juries have refused to convict the activists and now they're gonna drop the other, the other trials. They're just not gonna bother

Jasmin Singer: Wow.

Mariann Sullivan: with them.

Jasmin Singer: Wow.

Mariann Sullivan: Also about Animal Rising, I, I just wanted to mention they, now they have another, uh, project coming up, they're, 20 beagle rescuers from an animal testing facility are facing, um, uh, charges of burglary. And, and so they'll be going through this whole process again of going through these trials and hopefully. You know, we we're so sad about what happened to Zoe Rosenberg in a very similar kind of situation, which we've talked about before here in California, and, uh, or there in California and, and it's so great to hear this happening in the UK.

Jasmin Singer: By the way, did,

Mariann Sullivan: made me

Jasmin Singer: did, did you see that Joaquin Phoenix has come out in public support of Zoe?

Mariann Sullivan: I did not see that.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: but I'm thrilled.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Me too. Me too.

Mariann Sullivan: Because you know, part one of the painful things about it is that it just just doesn't get enough attention. mean, it's outrageous that it does, that it's not front page news. Anyway, moving on. Another thing for us to be thankful for is the foods.

I mean, the foods keep barreling along in spite of the fact that, you know, we, all the press we hear is bad. They're not, they're not stopping. And one of the most amazing one is this story from AgFunder News. The Every company raises $55 million to scale egg proteins via fermentation, crosses line from promise to proof.

And this is a company, uh, they're, they're starting, they're starting their sales in, in Europe, but they hope to be coming to the US um, uh, shortly. But you're not gonna be buying their stuff. They're selling egg, uh, egg powder or fermented egg powder not made from, uh, you know, anything out of a chicken to, uh, bakers and, and other people who... you, you know, eggs are enormous, enormous products, so they're not, it's not shell eggs or, or liquid eggs. It's powdered eggs that will take the pace of enormous numbers of liquid eggs that are being used, even though these is this is powder, they'll be able to take the place of liquid.

It's gonna be so much cheaper for everybody. I mean, they're not there yet. They're, they're not, they're, they're at price parity for high end, um, products, but the potential is enormous because, you know, the egg industry screwed everybody who buys from them by like falling to pieces and having avian flu.

And they're, they're just gonna, uh, I think they're gonna clean up.

Jasmin Singer: Wow. That is so cool.

Mariann Sullivan: Super Meat secures 3.5 million, not exactly 55 million, but still good, to accelerate European launch after hitting cost parity on cultivated chicken. Cost parity, that is, you know, big, uh, again for high end, um, high-end, uh, chicken products, but they're doing a commercial rollout of this culitvated chicken in Europe. And, um, it's a hundred percent cell-based, so, you know, it's not one of these mixed, uh, mixed products. And, and they, uh, they reported that they could produce a hundred percent cultivated chicken at approximately 11.79 per pound at scale, which is the, the price of, you know, apparently expensive chicken.

Who knows? Um, and. they, they, they, they, this is gross, but the achievement was based on a production process comprising 85% muscle and 15% fat without blending plant-based ingredients to reduce cost. So it's pure cell based. A lifecycle analysis conducted, uh, blah, blah, blah... um, says it could deliver roughly 50% fewer carbon emissions than conventionally raised farm chicken. And, um, oh, they're the company that'll be launching in the US in 2026. So

Jasmin Singer: We're almost there.

Mariann Sullivan: Are gonna things. Things are gonna shift. Things are going to shift. There's people out there working on this. Alright? We have talked before about this product, and I just wanted from Plant-based News, this vegan microbial protein made from air and electricity could go to space.

This is a Finnish company, it's called Solar Foods. They're now testing it to go into space. I don't know why they're, they need to be going into space, but yeah, it's made out of air, I swear.

Jasmin Singer: This is like an SNL skit.

Mariann Sullivan: I know, um, they, it's made from, uh, is a solein itself is a single cell alternative protein made by extracting carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and then combining it with hydrogen minerals and vitamins. And the process is powered by renewable energy, and the protein has been tested in ice cream, meat and noodles. Those Fins, I'll tell you, there's no stopping them.

Jasmin Singer: That is. That's, that's bananas.

Mariann Sullivan: Amazing. I mean, if, if we can just hold onto the planet and not ruin it in a hundred years, we'll all just be, or you'll all just be eating air. Apparently that's how it's gonna go. Alright, so giving thanks for that. And finally, I wanted to give a little thanks for turkeys that I was reminded to do that by, by this post from, from, um, Friends of Animals who just posted a bunch of interesting facts about wild turkeys, um, about their innate skills and mental prowess.

And they, they can outsmart natural predators such as foxes, coyotes, and raccoons. And of course, famously, Benjamin Franklin thought turkeys were so smart that he wanted them to be the national bird rather than the the eagle. Um, that, that's not in here. I, but I didn't make it up, I swear. Um, they, their vision is three times more clear than 20/20, and they have a 270 degree field of vision. An adult turkey has five to 6,000 feathers. Unbelievable. They're fiercely protective parents. They will, they will do anything to keep their babies safe. Um, the young turkeys, um, eat insects and ticks. I don't know, you know, I know there are people out there who are tick welfare people. Oh, I wanna be, but it's hard. Um, but if, if ticks have to die, you gotta admit the best thing for them to do is to be eaten by turkeys. Um, turkey flocks contain complex hierarchies. They're very tight knit. The bonds they create can sometimes last their entire lives, and they do not like to be separated from their community. They, they're actually good flyers, even though people make fun of them for not being able to fly, but we're talking about wild turkeys, not turkeys who have been genetically manipulated to be ill. And of course they can't fly far, but um, in short bursts, they can fly up to 55 to 60 miles an hour. And also they roost in trees at night to avoid predators, which reminded me of that time we were at that sanctuary in Vermont, can't remember the name of.

Jasmin Singer: Vine Vine Sanctuary.

Mariann Sullivan: And it wasn't turkeys, it was chickens. But they mentioned that even in the middle of winter, they will go up in the high up in the trees, uh, to sleep. Uh, 'cause that's where they like to sleep and they like to be free.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. I mean, of course they do.

Mariann Sullivan: They had a to sleep in,

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: they had access to, but they like sleeping up in the trees.

Jasmin Singer: They like to sleep in it. Well, thank you. I enjoyed that. I really did. Something else we're grateful for.

Mariann Sullivan: Move on. Let's move

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, so our, our producer, Vicki Bechler, uh, is going to be doing a review of The Tortoise's Tale by Kendra Coulter. And Kendra has actually been on the podcast before on episode 738, talking about her prior book, Defending Animals, and I love Kendra. Just, I love her brain, I love her creativity. I'm so excited about reading this book. Uh, I be, I don't have time yet because of the play that I'm in that opens next week.

So, uh, and we didn't wanna wait because the book's coming out, and so Vicki very eagerly volunteered to read it first, and she's going to be chatting with us about it. Welcome to the Hen Report, Vicki.

Vicki Beechler: Hi. Thanks for having me back!

Jasmin Singer: Can I just say your... I mean, I don't know if this is like a weird thing to say, but like your eyeliner game today is like amazing. I am.

Vicki Beechler: Thank you.

Jasmin Singer: an, I am seriously envious of it. Like it's beautiful and if you're listening to

this on the audio,

you have to go look at the YouTube just to look at Vicki's makeup. But you're not here to talk about your makeup, although you could because

Mariann Sullivan: Jasmin. No, we're not talking about makeup!

Jasmin Singer: But didn't you go like the art? Didn't you go to like beauty school or?

Vicki Beechler: I did, yeah. I was a cosmetologist for like 17 years.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

I mean, and I mean, it shows like, you know, I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy. Alright. But you are here today to talk about The Tortoise's Tale by Kendra Coulter. And we already mentioned that Kendra had been on the podcast before and, and I'm dying to read this book. I was just like honest that I haven't had a chance yet. Uh, but tell us about this because this is, you know, what we are most passionate about, which is getting animals into the arts in any way, shape or form. And in this way it's in fiction.

Vicki Beechler: Yes. And it is magnificently done. I love this book so much. Um, I did realize that I have the advance proof that we got from Kendra. Um, I, so I don't know if anything changed in the final, um, but I doubt it.

Mariann Sullivan: I,

Vicki Beechler: So.

Mariann Sullivan: Just like typos and stuff.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Vicki Beechler: I am gonna try not to spoil it anyway, but I really, really loved it. I will admit, um. I started it on the flight to London and I was like, oh man, this is gonna be too sad.

And I don't, I don't wanna make myself sad before my trip. Uh, but then I read it on the flight back and it was so good. I just, I just didn't put it down the whole time. I, I read it straight through as soon as I started, so.

Um, so it's about captivity, you know? So like I got through the first little bit and I was like, oh, no, you know, 'cause it's a... in the beginning, the tortoise is, you know, is, is kidnapped from the wild.

So, um, you know, and I just got nervous.

Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: So the book is written from the point of view of the tortoise?

Vicki Beechler: Yes, the tortoise tells the tale, and in fact, um, there's a part where talking about storytelling and, um. The tortoise, um, who has several names throughout the book, because the different people call her by, by different names. Um, at this point in the book, she's called Magic by a little girl named Lucy. And Lucy is, um... someone is reading her Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Magic is listening. And, and, and Lucy and Magic both end up being horrified, um, by the mock turtle, by the song that the mock turtle is being asked to sing. A song about, about being eaten. Um, and in that scene, Magic reflects, uh, Magic says, um, I believe this was when I first realized there needed to be better stories about tortoises told by tortoises.

Jasmin Singer: So cute

Vicki Beechler: Yeah.

Jasmin Singer: By the way, I just put a hold on the audio version at my library just now. I'm so excited.

Vicki Beechler: oh, there's an audio?

Jasmin Singer: And I'm gonna also purchase a copy because I, I wanna support, I wanna support vegan authors and, and, and stories like this,

Vicki Beechler: Yeah, absolutely.

Jasmin Singer: about listening to the audio, so,

Vicki Beechler: Me too! I wanna listen to it now.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: It's so hard, we were talking before about how hard it is to pull this off, to write a book from the point of view of an animal. This, was there anything in particular that she did that she managed to pull it off? About and, and we're talking about someone reading who was not, who was not gonna let her get away with anything.

I mean, you would have pretty high standards in representing an animal, but you still loved it.

Vicki Beechler: Yes, it's true. Um, I don't know that I can pinpoint what it is. I, I suppose that it's enough, you know, it's, it's giving the tortoise perspective and giving her a personality and, and a point of view that is believably a tortoise's point of view. You know, it's not like inserting human thought and everything sort of into what's happening so much that you're like, ugh like, this doesn't feel like a tortoise. Um, but yeah, she fully pulled it off and she also fully pulled off inserting vegan perspectives into this novel without like, bashing you over the head with it. So I really hope a lot of people read this book and, um, like come away with a, a different perspective.

Jasmin Singer: I, you mentioned a little bit about the plot, but, uh, I, I just wanna go back to that so that I can understand it a little better. Like you, you mentioned that the, the tortoise is kind of going to various different homes. Like what's the main, main point of the, of the book? What's the, the main drive forward?

Vicki Beechler: So the, the tortoise never leaves the home.

Jasmin Singer: Oh.

Vicki Beechler: The tortoise is a decorative fixture on an estate. So she is shuffled between people, not between homes. Does that make sense? So, so part of the, part of the, um, sort of theme. You know, one of the themes of the book, um, is like loss and change over the long life life of the tortoise.

So, um, so the book covers like a century of human society. You know, the tortoise has lived a very long life, so it goes from the kidnapping as a tiny tortoise, then she lives on this estate and the estate keeps changing hands. Um, so that's like basically the story I would say with the theme of this long life of sort finding joy in small things, um, and then change and loss.

Um, with captivity mixed into that and sort of the horrors of captivity because the tortoise is not the only decorative animal on, on this estate. There's plenty. Um, they have exotic birds in, in huge cages. And in fact, one of my favorite reflections from Magic is, um, about captivity. She says, um, how people decided what to do and not to do with animals, even those who were very similar, was a mystery. And I just love that, um, thought from her because she's watching the wild birds land on the cages of the caged birds and she's thinking about, about captivity. And uh, I wonder that myself all the time, so.

Jasmin Singer: I mean, I know you, you, you have, uh, you haven't yet heard the beginning of today's episode. Uh, but I, was basically talking about picking up my dog, Murray, from the groomer and, and all of these cute dogs there, and how the people were talking about how the dog can't wait to eat turkey, and, and it's just. It reminds me so much of what you're saying. It's just like, I love it being explicitly stated that way of like, why this and not that.

Mariann Sullivan: Explicit but relatively gentle. 'cause you know, all of us think these things all the time, but, but the trick is being able to express it in a way that somebody reading it who's not there yet would hear it, but it wouldn't be yelling at them.

Vicki Beechler: Yes. Yes, exactly.

Mariann Sullivan: off.

Vicki Beechler: And, and in a, um, you know, not relating it to animals that people might feel more attached to, as in the ones they eat. You know, like, like most people, I mean, a lot of people do have caged birds, but most people don't. You know, that's like a small, so thinking about it with birds, especially because if you keep going, you can maybe think about chickens and, and turkeys and. But yeah, while, you know, it's just those little things where people aren't so attached to them that it's easier for them to have those kind of thoughts.

Mariann Sullivan: the, you hope you've got gotten a little worm in

Vicki Beechler: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Mariann Sullivan: to like maybe a bigger thought

Vicki Beechler: Exactly. Um, she does get a lot more like vegan-y kind of stuff in as well. Um, the Lucy character is a vegetarian as a child, and it's like the 1950s when she's a child. So, um, and then when she gets older, she actually starts a plant-based company. It's not like huge part of the story, but it's there, you know, it, it, mm-hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: I think if you make it too much of the story, it shuts people down.

Vicki Beechler: Yeah, I agree.

Jasmin Singer: And just so people know, this is a, a Simon and Schuster publishing this, so like the, you know, to get anything like this published by a major publisher, I can tell you it's, it's, it's pretty much unheard of. So what do you think the appeal, what do you think the mainstream appeal is for this this book? 'Cause we're, we're all looking at this very much from a vegan, you know, perspective, obviously.

Vicki Beechler: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, really it's just like a, it's just a beautiful story. It's, you know, a beautiful fiction story and I think, I think putting that century worth of, of human society, you know, will make it a little bit more interesting for people that aren't just interested in the tortoise.

Like she goes through jazz and you know... oh, I forgot to mention that she's a music lover, the turtle.

Jasmin Singer: Cute.

Vicki Beechler: So, yeah, so she like loves to wander over by the stage when there are parties at the estate. Um,

Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

Vicki Beechler: So she, yeah, she goes through all these different types of music. She doesn't like, love rock and roll so much, but, but she goes through it.

Um, you know, I think, I think having the human story there also. You know, that's people want, that's what people really want. But, but this woman's story, Lucy, is told by this tortoise, you know, and, and so she's telling her story and Lucy's story at the same time, if that makes sense.

Mariann Sullivan: Really smart because people do wanna hear stories about people.

Vicki Beechler: Yeah, absolutely.

Mariann Sullivan: It so hard to write, you know, from an animal's point of view or, write about animals. It's like people who really love animals, I mean, we're, you know, we're just different. And it's hard to do that in writing.

So that makes so much sense that the tortoise is telling Lucy's story.

Jasmin Singer: Also.

Mariann Sullivan: And also her own, like

That can really pull people in.

Jasmin Singer: And if I'm,

Vicki Beechler: Yeah.

Jasmin Singer: not mistaken, uh, you know, after the Octopus Teacher came out, was a real sort of societal obsession with like the one animal, and the one species of animal. I remember because I was talent scouting for my literary agent at the time, and, and you know, there were other books sold and other films, you know, picked up right after The Octopus Teacher.

And if I'm not mistaken, the timing is right here too, uh, for when Kendra probably sold this book and it was like, I could be wrong, but like The Tortoise, like it was about this particular one. But of course, Kendra, who is just a brilliant, a, a brilliant mind and also started the world's first major in Animal Ethics and Sustainability Leadership at, um, hu Huron.

Huron, I don't know how to say it. University Huron University College in Canada Um.

Mariann Sullivan: Lake Huron.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. And so she, she started that. So like, obviously everything she does is going to have that like vegan edge and that like, you know, advocacy edge. And do you think, Vicki, that people will notice it? Like will they feel like, hey, someone is, someone is proselytizing or will they just feel like this is a great story?

Vicki Beechler: I don't think they'll feel like someone is proselytizing. Will they notice it, is always a really difficult question to answer because... I don't think you guys have seen Wicked yet. The second part, you haven't seen it yet, right?

Jasmin Singer: Broadway a few times, many, many times.

Mariann Sullivan: two

Vicki Beechler: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean the movie.

Jasmin Singer: the second half. Not yet

Vicki Beechler: Yeah. Um. I don't think people are noticing even when it's like right in front of their freaking face.

Like, like my, one of my really good friends, she said that when she saw Okja in the theater, she was sobbing, snot, you know, the whole bit. And when she was leaving the theater, people were laughing like they thought it was funny. And so I don't know the answer to that question. I don't think people will feel that they're being bashed over the head, but whether they'll notice it or not, I, I don't know.

You know,

Jasmin Singer: Mm.

Vicki Beechler: I, was trying to be positive here, but

Jasmin Singer: No, I,

Vicki Beechler: it's tough.

Jasmin Singer: going to be someone, I mean, someone's gonna be

Vicki Beechler: Oh,

Jasmin Singer: like,

Vicki Beechler: yes,

Mariann Sullivan: that's all of activism.

Jasmin Singer: yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: never gonna come up with a thing that reaches everybody. But, but each

Vicki Beechler: is true.

Mariann Sullivan: and, and you know, we just don't have that many books like this really, that are really well written, you know, not well written for a vegan book. Well

Vicki Beechler: No. So well written.

Mariann Sullivan: uh, and, you know, that really can draw people in.

So some people will be reached by it and, you know, and, and maybe, you know, like I said, maybe it'll plant a brain worm. Isn't it RFK Jr who actually has a worm in his brain? Maybe I should stop using that analogy. Um.

Jasmin Singer: Also you

Vicki Beechler: Oh my gosh.

Mariann Sullivan: but it'll lose. I, I think it's, I think it's just, I, I'm so happy that she did this and I'm sure it was very like, unbelievable amount of work and, and uh, I think it's amazing activism and also apparently a great book.

Jasmin Singer: And you, and you just said, uh, can draw people in and for like 20 seconds. I thought you said Kendra people in, and I was like, what does she say?

Mariann Sullivan: Kendra can draw...

Jasmin Singer: Kendra can draw.

Vicki Beechler: Funny.

Jasmin Singer: So Vicki, like, tell us like any final thoughts on this and, and why people should pick it up.

Vicki Beechler: Um, people should pick it up because it's absolutely a wonderful story. Um, I mean, I don't remember the last time I read a book from start to finish, um, and I know I was on a flight, but I, it was a really long flight and I had, I could've had a lot of other things I could've done.

Mariann Sullivan: mean, you mean from start to finish in one sitting? Because I know you

Vicki Beechler: Yes.

Mariann Sullivan: the time.

Vicki Beechler: Yeah. Sorry. I meant like I picked up the book, I started it and by the time I put it down, I was done.

Jasmin Singer: That's such a gift. I mean, that is just, and I just like, I, as an author, I, I would just be so happy if someone ever did that with something of mine. Like what a beautiful, what a testament to Kendra's ability to really grab you.

Vicki Beechler: Yes.

Mariann Sullivan: I know this wouldn't be perfect for everybody, but it does sound like the kind of book that you could kind of slip in as a gift. Um, and it is the season and it just came out and, and, uh, you know, I just really thought, 'cause it's not hitting, it's, it's not a book called How to Go Vegan, which, you know, people are not going to appreciate getting.

It could really be like a, a, subtle, uh,

Jasmin Singer: I kind of wrote the How to Go Vegan book. I don't think anyone really ready my book in one sitting, but I digress. it's okay.

Vicki Beechler: Um, I, the last, uh, thing that I will say is early on in the book, one of... she's not yet been called Magic. Her name at the time is Daisuke. Um, the gardener has named her Daisuke and she reflects about him that, it's the first time a person saw me and understood that I am someone.

Jasmin Singer: Oh, that's a beautiful way to end this. Vicki, thank you so much for, for being here, for talking about it, for reading it. I know you want, you were like, this isn't work for me, but it, we're really glad to have your your perspective.

And just hang, hang out for another second because we're just gonna clo close things out here.

Vicki Beechler: Wait! Before we go, I just wanted to mention that um, everyone needs to go to google.com and look at the search homepage because the Thanksgiving mascot is Tiny Chef!

Jasmin Singer: Way. Oh my God. Tiny Chef!?

Mariann Sullivan: This mean that everyone is going to have a vegan Thanksgiving?

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, everyone's gonna have a vegan Thanksgiving. Come on. This is so exciting. Tiny Chef is my favorite person ever who's been on, who's been on the podcast. No, no offense, Vicki, but I mean, come on, Tiny Chef.

Vicki Beechler: Uh, he is also my favorite.

Jasmin Singer: Thanks for letting us know. google.com.

Mariann Sullivan: It's odd that all of our favorite person is not actually human.

Something going on there...

Jasmin Singer: On that note.

We already talked all about giving Tuesday and, and all of our Thanksgiving, uh, you know, programs and opportunities for people to get involved. Uh, Mariann, tomorrow's interview. Why don't you briefly talk about that?

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, and actually this is the week of the month that we do the the Animal Law Podcast interview, and I interview our friend, who you've probably seen before on the podcast or heard before on the podcast, Michael Dorf, who teaches Con Law. Uh, he's like very fancy professor at, at Cornell Law School. He just taught a course, which. I think he's the only one who's taught this particular course on Animals and the Constitution, and we kind of broke it down and talked about like how he approached it. It, it was a great conversation.

Jasmin Singer: Hmm. That's very cool. I can't wait to hear that. And as always, thank you so much for tuning in. Um, we'll make sure that you join us now to become a Flock member before the end of the year because every dollar you donate will be tripled. So become a Flock member. Get involved at ourhenhouse.org/support.

Thank you for to Vicki and to Jen Riley. Vicki not only is the person behind today's, uh, incredible review, but is also the magic behind this mayhem, so we really appreciate all the work you do, Vicki, in producing Our Hen House and keeping us going, so.

We appreciate you too, if you're listening and Happy Thanksgiving! We'll talk to you next time.