Animal Writes: Crafting Authentic Animal Narratives with John Yunker and Midge Raymond

We're gonna get to that in just a second, but just a quick reminder first that the Our Hen House podcasts now come out on multiple days a week. Tuesdays is Rising Anxieties. The Hen Report comes out on Thursdays, and the long form interview, which is this, comes out on Fridays. Bonus for Flock members comes out on Mondays. We're a podcast, and we're on YouTube, so please hit subscribe and hit like wherever you listen. Alright, Mariann, why don't you do the honors?

Mariann Sullivan: Yes, I, I would be thrilled to, because this is not our first rodeo, I guess I shouldn't use that expression, with, with Midge and John. I'm so happy to have them back 'cause it's always such an interesting conversation. And, uh, Midge Raymond and John Yunker are the co-authors of the mystery Devil's Island and the nonfiction book, Animal Writes and the co-founders of Ashland Creek Press, which is a vegan publisher devoted to animal and environmental literature. Midge is also the author of the novels Floreana and My Last Continent, the short story collection Forgetting English.

And John is the author of The Tourist Trail and Where Oceans Hide Their Dead. All really great books. Welcome to both of you.

Midge Raymond: Thank you so much.

Jasmin Singer: I love having you guys on, uh, you, you're just so, you've been with us for so long. It genuinely just feels like, you know, fam. Like you're our cousins, but like the cousins you like, so, uh. Also that, that's such an impressive, like bio. How did, does it feel weird to you to hear your bio? I'm just curious.

Midge Raymond: Sometimes it does for me, just because there were so many years I did not have a book and, and wanted to. And then, um, Forgetting English was published and then I had the one book and I, I just, it took me so long to, to write and finish a publishable novel.

So it is kind of cool. Kind of a kind of, um, yeah, surreal and, and, and great. Um, but I haven't forgotten the hard work 'cause it was, it's, it was a long time coming for sure.

John Yunker: The books are like tree rings, so I guess I feel a little old as well.

Jasmin Singer: Oh, that's funny. I talk

The better your bio gets the, the older it means you are.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Jasmin Singer: Although I, I, I, this, this will be a good, uh, sort of, uh, transition into what we're talking about today, but. Just because of what I do in, in the world. I, I was reading two books recently on, on getting books published. Uh, because what I do when I wear my Worldshapers hat is help people publish books.

And in it, they were talking about bios at some point. And there was, I, I'm totally gonna mess this up, but it said something like, when you're really successful, you have like the shortest bio ever, like, like half of a sentence because it's like obviously.

Mariann Sullivan: I think Peter Singer's bio is like, he's a philosopher.

Okay.

Jasmin Singer: Right? Yeah, exactly. Uh, so, and then it reminds me too, of like one time, a very long time ago, someone said that the more keys you carry, the less important you are. And I have like, I mean, my keys, I don't even know what they're for. They're, it's that many keys, but it's true. Like you would imagine that like someone extraordinarily successful just doesn't carry any keys.

Alright, let's use that very strange transition to talk about what we're here to talk about. Uh, so I would love it if either one of you wants to start by explaining the relationship between your workshop Writing for Animals, which you've talked about with us before, and your new book, Animal Writes, that's W-R-I-T-E-S, and why you wrote it.

So who wants to start?

John Yunker: Midge?

Midge Raymond: John? No. I, I can go. Um, so Animal Writes is, um, this came pretty directly out of the class Writing for Animals, which came out of the book Writing for Animals.

So Writing for Animals, the book, for anyone who's new to all of this, Writing for Animals the book is a collection of essays about how to write for animals, meaning not, you know, for animals to read.

That's the question we get all the time. What animals are gonna read this? But no, it's writing about animals, but for the animals in that it's about how to portray them authentically and as individuals and um, as realistically and genuinely as possible. And then we just realized there are, um, there was this opportunity, and it was during the pandemic that we decided to create an online program.

So Writing for Animals is also a class of four week online writing program. And it's also an eight week self-paced program for anyone who can't join us for any of the live sessions, they can do it on their own. And there are eight classes in that particular program. And then we came up with the idea for Animal Writes just after teaching several of these live classes because there was so much we wanted to get out there in a bigger way, you know, beyond just the classes that we did.

And we also were coming up with writing prompts to do during these classes, and we had all kinds of interesting questions about everything from craft to, what do you call, like, a group of sharks, which happens to be like a shiver, which is the coolest thing. So we have a whole section on what you call groups of animals and what you call baby animals.

You know, the things, the very detailed sorts of things that you need to consider if you're writing about animals, because it's all about the details. There are so many examples in in books and films where they get it wrong. Jaws being the most famous example. And even the author of Jaws came forth later to say, I made a big mistake when I wrote Jaws. And he's, you know, went into shark conservation and protection. Um, this is Peter Benchley, of course.

So anyway, so Animal Writes came directly out of the class and all the inspiration that we got from teaching it and the feedback that we got from students. So it's a kind of a cool workbook for writers who love animals and, um, who wanna write as advocates for animals.

Mariann Sullivan: How many students are there in, in, well, I mean, as you said, some of it is self-taught, like, so, but when you do, do a group, how many, how many people is it, generally?

John Yunker: I'd say no more than 20. I'd say between 10, and 10 and 20 when we do a live class. Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: That's cool. That's really cool.

So I know that this is what the book is about, but can you just kind of summarize like what, and, and some of what you're doing here, obviously a lot of what you're doing here, is helping other people learn, but I'm, I'm curious to know what you felt you learned from doing this process.

'Cause it must have been really interesting to bring together all of these different people who write or wanna write and, and find their different perspectives.

John Yunker: Oh yeah. And it's, you know, we're, we're writers, we're publishers, but we're also in our own ways, I think, evangelists to other writers because there, it just, it drives me a little bonkers when I see a book get it wrong about animals, particularly when it comes to pronouns. I, I think we see that a lot in the news media.

We see it in, in literature, and it's been really gratifying to meet other writers who, who are on similar journeys as, as we are. So we've learned from, from them. Uh, a lot of them are experts in various animal species who teach us a lot, and hopefully we, we, uh, share what we've learned.

And and they, they, they're inspired and, uh, you know, you can, you can do a whole class just on pronouns, when to use 'em, when not to use 'em, you know, based on the character you're, you're portraying and, and their awareness and understanding of animals. But that, that level of getting, you know, in the weeds is really, really important. And it's just, it's something that... what this, we wanted to create a class that I, I would've loved to have taken when I was starting to write. Because I didn't, I didn't think about these things, you know? And then the more we teach it, the more I, I feel like the more aware we become of all the subtle subtleties and nuances.

Midge Raymond: And I think, um, I, I think we both also found it profoundly inspiring just to know that there are other writers out there who are advocating for animals and who wanted to do more in their writing. You know, uh, writers who really got it, you know, what we were trying to do. And we just felt this, this, kinship with them and, and it was really, really nice to just feel like, oh, this is a great community.

And we have a sort of alumni group that, um, you know, we have a, a special alumni newsletter and, um, we've done a few open mics with our alumni so they can share what they're working on. And it's all by Zoom 'cause they come from all over the world. So it's just been really, really fun to sort of build that community.

Jasmin Singer: Are you familiar with the new novel, The Tortoise's Tale by Kendra Coulter?

Midge Raymond: Yes. Wonderful book.

John Yunker: Midge just reviewed it actually.

Jasmin Singer: Oh!

Midge Raymond: Reviewed it on Eco Lit Books.

Mariann Sullivan: Vicki just reviewed it for us.

Jasmin Singer: I just started it today on audio and I love, love, love it. And I just, um, I, I think Kendra is so cool and, and that just makes me think about whether you have any favorite works, maybe classics, maybe modern, that you feel really gets it right in writing for animals.

Midge Raymond: Gosh, there are so many that we, that we talk about a lot. What, what I find interesting is how many books, um, are not, you know, Kendra Coulter's an amazing writer and she's such a big animal advocate as well as a talented fiction writer. But it's also inspiring to see examples of writers who aren't necessarily, um, activists who happen to do, you know, happen to just do an amazing job.

Like, um, Karen Joy Fowler, her novel, We Are All Completely Beside Ourselves, is one of the most beautiful novels about animals that I've read. Um, and she's a phenomenal writer, but she just really did a great job with this book, um, as sort of a, an animal rights book, if you will, kind of subtly so, but it was so well done.

And then there are glimpses in so many different works, um, where you can see animals, um, being portrayed as individuals. And in fact, there's this new, there's a new book out. It's kind of an academic book about Hemingway, about rereading Hemingway from sort of an animal perspective. And it was so interesting to see, and I can't wait to read this book. It's, um, because it... in, in our class, we, we take a look at one of Hemingway's short stories in a scene that's told from the animal's point of view, from the lion's point of view. And it is absolutely stunning. And you would, you would never think like, oh, Hemingway has this great empathy for a lion who's shot on safari.

But it's a really, um, it's a really beautiful little scene. And, um, so it's things like that that we, that we talk about a lot as well, as well as books that are, um, a little bit more, you know, written from an animal's point of view about animals that, but there's also those books that are not specifically about animals that, um, we, we ask people to look for and, and kind of, you know, highlight.

Um, the name of the Hemingway short story. I see this in the chat. The name of the Hemingway short story is, um, the Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber. It's a short story. Um,

Mariann Sullivan: Another book that you mention a number of times in the book is, um, just, I, I, a book I absolutely love.

Uh, Drive Your, Drive Your Plow Over the Bones of the Dead.

Midge Raymond: Yes.

Mariann Sullivan: I mean, though that is about animals, it's als it's really more about what it's like to care deeply about animals, which is also a topic that I think people really struggle with and which you talk about in the book. Like how much do you expose, how much, how do you bring in people who don't share that?

And I, she seemed to have done that really well. Well, she won Nobel Prize...

So

Midge Raymond: That's one of our favorites as well. Um, as also JM Coetzee as Elizabeth Costello, another one where it's like, it, it that portrays how hard it is to live in a world where people don't care about animals the way you do.

That's another one of our favorites.

Mariann Sullivan: And somehow, apparently, they both managed to get other people to read those books, even though most people usually do not wanna hear about, uh, about veganism or animal rights activism, or how much you care about animals.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I, I wanna give a shout out to, I, I mentioned this on a recent episode, uh, but it's especially fun for me when I had no idea that there was going to be a theme of animal rights or veganism, and then there it is. And it, I, it happens almost never, but I read like a lesbian rom-com and it's called Bed and Breakup by Susie Dumond.

And it was like about a vegan chef. And I kept waiting for the joke, like, like for the vegan to be the butt of the joke. And, and it never happened. So, uh, I love

Midge Raymond: I love seeing things like that. Yeah. With the unexpected genres that happen to have in a little animal rights angle, that's amazing.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

Jasmin Singer: So we're talking a little bit about like, getting it right. Uh, what about getting it wrong? Like what are, what are some of the most common ways that people miss the boat when writing about animals?

John Yunker: Well, you know, falling into those, uh, old, uh, tropes if you will. You know, Midge mentioned Jaws. So nowadays because of Jaws, uh, if you are writing, you know, if you read a novel and someone falls off a boat in the, in an ocean, suddenly there's gonna be a shark. You can almost bet on it. If it's a, if it's a book that has a thriller component or. And, and it's just, it's just frustrating for me because it reinforces a, a misconception that's been with us for, for quite some time.

So I think a, you see a lot of writers fall on, you know, someone goes into the woods, they come face to face with a, a bear, you know, and suddenly they're gonna die. Midge and I run into bears every so often here, we don't all die. We're not dying left and right.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. It does, but it's, the problem is, is that, you know, writers, writers have a lot of power when they put pen to paper, and I think they don't understand the, the implicit, uh, damage they do to animals by reinforcing, uh, these, these stereotypes or these fears that, uh, that we have.

And so I know that for certain books, you're trying to ramp up the tension, trying to ramp that stuff up, but there are other ways to do it. You know, there's human versus human tension you can, you can focus on. So I, I, I think that is definitely something I hit on a lot with, with our books.

And we review books on EcoLit Books and I, I tend to call out uh, you know, books where they just don't get it.

The other thing that really bothers me is any, any quote unquote environmental book these days that does not talk about animal agriculture. You know, main, you know, these huge, you know, chickens, uh, cows. Instead they talk about electric cars and, and it, it drives me bonkers because it, it is, it is so lazy that so many people just totally gloss over.

And it's not just the, the environmental aspect, it's a cruelty aspect. But, you know, I know that's, it's something that, it's gonna take some work to do, and that's something we focus on. And, and also when we talk about writing for animals, we're very clear that if your goal as a writer is to advocate for a, uh, penguin, um, you know, you, you might have an easier go of it than if it's a cow or a chicken just because it, the audience you're, you're dealing with and, and the way people perceive chickens and cows versus

penguins and dogs. Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: In that context. Could you talk a little bit about Barn 8? Which is a book that I loved, which you, you actually called out as having managed to do that, to, to talk about factory farming of chickens and actually still bring to life a chicken.

John Yunker: Yeah. Midge Midge reviewed that. Midge?

Midge Raymond: Yeah. And chatted with the author as well. Um, it's an

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. she, had, she was on Deb Unferth? She was on the podcast, uh, When, when the book was published. It was a couple years ago.

Midge Raymond: Yeah, it was a couple years ago. And I was, I was just ecstatic to see a book about chicken farming, you know, from a mainstream publisher.

That's something that I didn't think I would see anytime soon. And it was, um, it was a great book. Yeah. She actually talked to a little bit about, um, she did a, a magazine article for Harper's about factory farming 'cause I was asking her about her research and she said she used that article to do a lot of her research, which was, which was interesting.

But yeah, that's a great book about, um, a chicken rescue. And she has an individual chicken character called Bwok in the book, and she talks a lot...

Mariann Sullivan: Thought it was pronounced Bwok!

Midge Raymond: Bwok. Yeah. you do it better than I do, Mariann.

I, um, no, it was, but

Jasmin Singer: I'm gonna need that to be put on social media. Continue,

Midge, please.

Midge Raymond: She's, uh, she's a lovely character and I think what Deb Onil Unferth does so well in the book is, tell us about factory farming in general. You know, the billions of chickens who are, who suffer, but by, by zooming in on, what was her name again, Mariann?

Mariann Sullivan: Uh, the, the author Deb Un...

Midge Raymond: The chicken.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, the chicken, Bwok!

Midge Raymond: Thank you.

By focusing on this character, we really get to see her as an individual and it's, um, heartbreaking and, um, so important to the story.

Mariann Sullivan: Setting off to write that, uh, it just seems insurmountable to bring, you know, to manage to, to write a novel that's interesting, that has an interesting human character and sympathetic human character and actually exposes what's going on in factory farming and actually focuses on a chicken character.

I mean, it really, that's a job and she did it really well. And you know, both of you obviously also do characters really well and, alright, this is not, this is a, you know, not, not everybody likes this kind of question, but, but since you've both written books, so you must like your books and as they well deserve to be- I, I'm I'm just wondering there are particular areas where you really were like, oh, I got, I got it right or I think I did it, I think I did that animal proud, um, in your books.

Midge Raymond: Oh, that is a great question.

I would first say that as soon as I, you know, as soon as I see my book in print when I can't change anything, my first thought is, oh no. You know, I hate everything about it. But I think, um, you know, and I write about penguins. So the book I'm working on now is about a different kind of species that is less, um, let's say snugly and less well known for sure.

But writing about penguins, John just mentioned a couple minutes earlier how easy that is because everyone adores penguins. But I think showing that, you know, the perils that they face and showing how much our actions affect them, that's hard to do and I have to try to do it really subtly.

But, um, you know, in terms of like if you love penguins, stop taking those krill supplements, stop eating seafood. You know, I think people who love penguins might not wanna think about that, but how directly it affects. So anytime I can get a message in there, I do feel glad about it. Um, and anytime I can do that in connection with portraying, you know, an animal in a way that will make people fall in love with them, I think is a success for the literary activist in me. Whether or not I do it well, I mean, I think you have to ask the readers, but you know, I think just having that goal of doing something good for the animals makes me happy.

And I can't not write about animals. It's just one of those things, you know, as soon as I started learning about things, becoming vegetarian and vegan, this was maybe 15 plus years ago. So my writing life has changed completely. I look at some of my old stuff and, um, can't believe I was that writer, you know?

Mariann Sullivan: That's so interesting to have that kind of record of how you used to think and see how, how your thoughts have changed. Yeah.

What about you, John? Any, any favorite moments that you wanna reveal to us?

John Yunker: I wrote an essay recently that I'm really proud of, and it actually got good track. It was, it's, it was

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, is this the one in the Revelator like?

John Yunker: Yeah. I, I heard a

Mariann Sullivan: I'm so mad at myself. I marked it off. I said, I have to read this before we interview John, and then I didn't.

So tell us about it, and then I will read it as soon as we get off.

John Yunker: It's, it's just, it's about, I, I mean, I'm a birder, I'm nuts for birds, but it drives me bonkers. Once again, I'm using that word bonk... drives me, uh, batty. I'll try another word. I don't know. I'm coming up with bad words, but the fact that the birding profession, the birding field doesn't acknowledge the birds on their plates. And, um, so I was really trying to call attention to that through this essay.

Um, you know, for example, I, there's, you know, the Cornell, uh, Cornell is known for their, their investments and, and they have a, a wonderful, uh, uh, institute around, uh, protecting birds. They have a magazine i, I subscribe to. It's wonderful.

But they never, never talk about not eating chicken, not eating turkeys, ducks. And it is just such a huge issue they will not touch because they don't wanna offend. And I understand why they don't wanna offend the vast majority of their audience, but they need to be leaders in this and not sitting on the sidelines.

So that was really what I was trying to get at with that essay. And I, I, I was shocked at the feedback. I, I got tons of emails. It was wonderful. I didn't expect that, and I was very pleased that the Revelator published it because they have a more mainstream readership.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, no, it's a perfect audience. Perfect. thoughtful, but, but not, uh, not totally. And I have to say, when I saw the article, I thought, oh my God, I'm so excited somebody's writing about this. And then it was you! I was so excited.

And then I forgot to read it!

John Yunker: And there's a comment, uh, Sumita, she mentions the bird ID app, which is awesome. It's a wonderful bird id, but it will not identify a chicken, a rooster.

Which is really interesting, which is really cuts to the core of this, the blinders. It's, I called it a, a tragic blind spot that birders have, that the birding population has. Yeah, yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: Wow. That's crazy.

Jasmin Singer: Uh, what

John Yunker: I tried it, it doesn't work.

Jasmin Singer: That's so interesting. I mean, not, it's awful, but.

John Yunker: Yeah,

Jasmin Singer: I love that question. And Mariann came up with that question about like, when do you think you got it right? And I could hear both of your like the, the sort of writer, the delicate writer ego of like, like, don't look at me, don't look at me, kind of thing.

Like, uh, when she asked it, so what about for each other? Do, do you have a favorite piece of one another's that you wanna share?

John Yunker: Oh, uh,

Midge Raymond: Well I love The Tourist Trail.

Jasmin Singer: Me too.

Midge Raymond: And, um, and John writes, he is really good at writing these essays, you know, like the one he just mentioned. Um, I also love his plays. As you know, Sanctuary just, you know, was on the podcast as it is every Thanksgiving, which we love.

I think he's really good at, um, he's written a lot of short plays with animal rights or vegan themes and they are hilarious. And I think that's one sort of fun way to get attention, especially of mainstream people who might not think about these issues. And, you know, they, there's this perception that we vegans just are so serious and we just sit around drinking wheat grass and, you know, and eating tofu and we're boring and sad and, you know.

It's just, we're regular people who happen to not, you know, eat animal parts. Um, but there's this weird, um, perception of vegans and there's also a lot of conflict, especially when it comes to families and relationships. Um, if you're vegan and someone you love is not, so, I think John does a great job with, with, um, well all his writing, but especially his plays, um, in bringing these worlds together and making it kind of fun and hilarious and seeing the humor in it, um, which I think can also open eyes and and minds.

Um, he just did Turkey Day, which is a kind of a Thanksgiving spoof of, um, in which the turkeys are in charge and they are, um, they go to up to pardon a politician for Thanksgiving.

It, it seemed really appropriate this year of all years actually.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: Well, except for pardoning them. which

Midge Raymond: Yeah, yeah. Except, yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: Not sure I'm on board there.

John Yunker: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: John, you wanna, you wanna get put on the spot too?

John Yunker: Sure, why not? Uh, well, My Last Continent is great. I, I guess I'd say Floreana and then I'm, I've had an early look at what Midge is working on next, and that's, it's always the latest and greatest, but I'm excited to see that one.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, do we get, do we get a hint or is that not allowed?

John Yunker: I don't know, Midge?

Midge Raymond: Well, you know, there are gonna be penguins 'cause I can't seem to escape them. But it's also, um, it's a little more of a family story as well. And there's also another endangered animal that I'm not gonna identify yet because I wanna keep it mysterious.

It's, I'm, I'm pretty sure no one's ever heard of it, which is one thing I love about this species.

Jasmin Singer: I love

Midge Raymond: Gonna fall in love with them, I hope. As I have.

Mariann Sullivan: So one thing I wanted to ask about, 'cause I think it's always a difficult choice, but now that we've already talked about, uh, about kendra Coulter's book, it, it, it adds, it adds another facet to this question. And that's like the place of anthropomorphism.

I feel like you guys don't really do that a lot. You don't give, give animals basically human personalities. And I think that can be quite controversial, but when you pull it off, it can... i, I'm just curious to know, uh, since, since we all agreed we liked Kendra's book and that's certainly anthropomorphic, like where do you draw the line on it? Or is it just a matter of whether you do it well or not?

John Yunker: Yeah, I think, I think it's very difficult to do and so I, I take a less is more approach to it. Um, for example, there was a, there's a, um, Cormick McCarthy, uh, is part of his border trilogy. I believe it was a second book. Uh. Uh, has one paragraph, maybe two paragraphs written from the Wolf's perspective, and that's all he did.

But I, I swear by doing that, it made it so much more tragic and so much more powerful. So sometimes you can do it in just one paragraph in an entire novel, and you could, you can gain a lot through that. So, I, I, I'm... but hats off to anyone who can do it for an entire novel. 'cause I have yet to tackle that.

And I'm not sure I ever will because it's very difficult. But I I think if you can pull it off, you know, go for it.

Midge Raymond: I think we don't see it a lot because it is so challenging. You know, one, one of our favorite books is a National Creek Press book called Love and Ordinary Creatures by Gwen Hyman Rubio.

And that's told entirely from the perspective of a cockatoo. And, um, it's extraordinary. It's so well done. Um, that is really, really challenging. And, um, I think, I think a lot of mainstream publishers shy away from that. And I'm just, I'm just speculating because I'm, we're not a mainstream publisher, obviously.

We published this book and, um, we, we love the animal perspective. It is hard to do really well and we don't see it a lot, but I think in publishing in general, it's sort of something that people think of as kids books, you know, this is what kids books are like. But I think that you don't have to sort of lose that magic, you know, we can enjoy it as adult readers and, um, it really... I think Kendra did a great job, Gwen Hyman Rubio did a great job. We don't see a lot of submissions even on with full novels told from an animal's point of view.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Except for with children, which, and, and with children, it's, It's, it's, it's all over the place. It's so interesting. I seem to remember... Kendra was on the podcast a while back about her previous book, but she was talking about this book that she was working on at the time. And I seem to remember her talking about, um, My Octopus Teacher and how its success has kind of opened like, like they're looking for books about unusual animals, and she felt it kind of opened the door for her to, um, have them consider her book, even though it was different because My Octopus Teacher was a documentary about a real octopus that obviously... I mean, but it was anthropomorphic in a way because it did interpret, uh, to, to some extent the octo...

But, you know, it was, it was reality. It wasn't, it wasn't fiction, but it wa it was interesting and it, it, it made me think that, you know, may, as you're saying you don't see it often and probably one of the reasons is that publishers are not interested in it. But maybe that is going to shift. I mean, uh, people are more open to, to, to thinking, to broaden their, broadening their minds a little bit about how they think about animals.

Midge Raymond: Let's hope so. And oh, go ahead. Sorry.

John Yunker: Well, provided it's not the, you know, the chicken's perspective is tougher, the cow's perspective. But yeah, if, if it's a species that we don't eat, uh, then that then I, I, think I, but I think you're right. I think the door is opening more because, you know, publishers respond to sales and, uh, Remarkably Bright Creatures sold quite well, I believe.

And, um, so I, I imagine it is a good, better time than it has been to do that.

Jasmin Singer: I know that we, uh, I I, I feel like we've talked about this before. Maybe we haven't. Maybe I just had a conversation with you in my head about it, which happens, but, uh, you mentioned like child's media or adult's media, and I'm just curious about your thoughts on cartoons and like the way animals are portrayed in cartoons.

Like, for example, curious George, a show that Mariann and I happen to love, however, you know, we're already down with the cause. so like, do you feel like it does any harm or do you feel like it's a good thing? I just sometimes wonder if like, kids have this idea of animals that they're like, exactly like humans. I'm sure you know a lot more about this subject than I do.

John Yunker: No, I, it's, I haven't thought too much about it, but it's a great point. I do think, I mean, my, my cartoon, you know, I, I, Bugs Bunny was my hero growing up. Um, and I, he was smarter than the humans, so I kind of grew up with, the animals tend to be smarter than than the human. Uh, but it, it varies on in terms of what animal, you know, you're portraying, but I, I think kids are, are remarkably open to and receptive the fact that animals are really, really smart.

Um, and at some point we just either suppress it or get told to compartmentalize it or, or whatnot. Um, but I, I think, uh, I, I, I love cart... I mean, I, I, I still think back to... uh, well, but of course there's misconceptions as well, the Tasmanian Devil, uh, uh, which is this whirling dervish and, and we actually saw a real one. It wasn't exactly like what they portrayed.

So, you know, it can, it can go both ways that portrayed a really violent, kind of scary creature. So, uh, whenever we promoted our book, people would talk about the Tasmanian Devil from Looney Tunes, and we had to show them a picture of this cute little animal.

Mariann Sullivan: That was the only Tasmanian devil I was familiar with. So yeah, I had to really shift my perception of seeing them as vulnerable and...

John Yunker: Yeah.

Yeah.

Midge Raymond: Yeah, I think the rules are kind of the same. You know, if the animal is portrayed authentically, then that's great. Um, and I do, I do... that's one thing about cartoons that's fun, is that the, the animals always outsmart the humans in cartoons. And I think I, I love how in kids' books, and I think the way children think in general, there is no difference between humans and animals. Everyone talks, everyone thinks everyone's on the same, at the same level. And that is, it is so sad that that goes away as we grow older.

Mariann Sullivan: Well, I kind of wonder whether, I don't think this is true actually, but I kind of wonder whether it is... that because we, we teach children in a way that they're supposed to be just like humans, they end up being disappointing that they can't. That it's much more complicated to communicate with them and understand them. I'm not sure. I think that's true, but I, I do always find it astounding how much nonsense we teach children. Like, like it's hard enough to learn about reality and we teach 'em all this stuff that's fake. It's like so cruel.

And so we tell them a lot of things about animals that in, in cartoons that, you know, are going to end up not being true. They do seem to adjust. I don't know how, but, uh, but, but I, maybe that is one of the reasons that when they grow up, so many, uh, so many people like, don't seem to get animals because they're not exactly like, you know, uh, Bugs.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I'm definitely taking us on a tangent with this. I realize that, but like, you know, I, as a child of the eighties, I grew up with, uh, My Little Pony and Care Bears, which both of which I guess are back now, but with weird, like not exactly right shapes and stuff. Um, and I mean, I was obsessed with them, but I don't think I ever thought of them as like horses or bears.

Like I, I think it was just completely separate for me. And, and that's where I think we can really improve upon the media that children are, you know, taking in. But yeah, I know you wanna get back to.

Mariann Sullivan: I would like to get back because there, there, I mean, we didn't really talk to you, you, me, you mentioned, you described the workshops a little bit, but, but I do wanna get back to that a little bit and get into a little more detail. Can you just kind of walk us through the experience that somebody has attending one of the workshops?

Like, like where do, where do you start and, and where do you, um. What, what, what are the sessions like?

John Yunker: Gosh. Um, okay, let me think here. Uh, we're teaching one next year in March, so I, I should be up to speed on this. Um, well, we open very high level and we're focused on, um, questioning of, uh, a lot of key foundational beliefs, if you will. Like the hierarchy of, of animals hierarchy with, you know, the, the view of humans at the top of this pyramid and, and that, that conventional view.

Um, talk about the Animal Turn, which we're in the midst of right now, um, both academically and I think in, in culturally as well. And, um, talk about some of these, these, uh, writers that, that influenced us. And then I believe we move into... Midge, help me out... craft, is that the next one? Is craft the next

Midge Raymond: We have, we, we kind of divide, we have, we, we joint, we co-teach two classes.

So, um, and then we each teach a class. So we start out together talking about, you know, kind of an overview of the course and, um, you know, history of animal literature. And then, um, yeah, and then we, we take a closer look at things like researching and how to, you know, how to go about writing for animals, how to research.

Um, we talk about pronouns and, you know, just the, the little details like using it, calling an animal it, um. We talk about Robin Wall Kimmerer essays on this, this topic. And we, um, and then we talk about craft as well, and we look at examples in literature, whether it's a whole book that is animal focused or as we, we've spoken about a little bit, some of these, um, smaller moments in mainstream books that aren't about animals, but that give us a glimpse into the mind of an animal.

And, and then we talk about publishing for animals because that is a challenge, as we've talked about as well. You know, are mainstream publishers really, really open to some of these ideas? Sometimes, but it's rare. And, you know, how do you navigate that and, you know, how can you find some of the smaller presses that are taking a chance on these books and you know how to, how to get your work out there successfully.

John Yunker: Oh, and we, we talk about genre a lot as well, because that's an area that, um, Midge and I, with our mystery novel that's, we're leveraging this genre of a mystery to, you know, get through, sneak through some animal, uh, evangelism, if you will, and education about, in this case, the Tasmanian Devil. And also we have a vegan character as well.

Um, so we talk a lot about genre as an opportunity and I, I think an underutilized area. And then another area with regards to research, you know, I'm a hu you know, I, I'm a huge fan of research and, and researching science and, and, and listening to scientists, but you also have to be very careful 'cause you also have to follow the money.

And, um, so I have one little case study where we delve into research that came out of one of these ag schools in the US And, and I don't know if you, a lot of everyone knows how the ag schools function, but they're generally aligned with animal agriculture and animal, uh production for food. So a lot of the research they produce, which gets reported in media, is not gonna be pro animal. It's gonna, it's gonna be the opposite.

And so looking at, you know, being able to sift through that is really important for writers, whether you're doing fiction or nonfiction to understand the dynamics at play. And also, uh, looking for drama in, in some of these stories. And, and, uh, because there's a lot of drama in these fields as well.

I think there's, there's gonna be great novels written about people that are caught in positions where their jobs are dependent on animal suffering in various, to various degrees and, and their stories have not yet been told and, uh, need to be told. Because I think, um, it, it, it's, it, you know, humans aren't all bad or all good generally, right?

They're all trying to just get by and sometimes they get into positions where they've, they get a job and, and maybe years into it they realize it's not doing Right by animals. I'm, I'm researching a novel in that, in that area right now, actually. And I'm trying to be sympathetic to the humans because

Mariann Sullivan: Are you familiar with Maddie Krasno? What's the name of Maddie Krasno's organization? I can't remember, but we've interviewed her and, and, sorry, I didn't mean to

John Yunker: Yeah. No, no, go for

Mariann Sullivan: so relevant to, to what you're talking about. It, it, it's representing people who, who either work in research or have worked in research Who, uh, you know, have a lot of regrets about it, feel it damaged them. You know, going through the whole gamut of, of what it does to people. It's very powerful. It sounds like they might connect you to some, uh, I, I, I don't know what exactly you're writing about, but there might be some themes in common.

John Yunker: You are right. And you have to desensitize yourself. You have to turn off empathy. And I think that happens in a lot of households with families. You know, you, you, you are taught to turn that, turn a switch off to survive as a child, right? And for very, you know, for various reasons. And so what we're trying to do through our writing is, is get, find that switch within a reader and get them to turn it back on again.

It's gonna be painful in many respects, but it's, it's important. That's how we move, move this planet forward because we all have it, I believe. To, for some people may not, some people may be a lost cause. Uh, but, uh. But I believe that most people have it and they just, you know, it's, it's, it's scary to, to question things that, that you've lived, uh, the way you've lived your life.

To question it at a certain point in time to think, gosh, I, I shouldn't have done it this way. Thanksgiving dinner, I always hit on, as you know, Thanksgiving is one of those traditions that is so culturally and, and politically, uh, hard entrenched in this country of ours. And, and how do you get, shake people in a certain way to get 'em thinking about rethinking it? And I, I've cer I actually see a word that's bubble up Friendsgiving. I don't know if that implies not eating turkey, but it's, it's neat to see people, you know, starting to challenge the Thanksgiving name and, and rename it. That's a step. It's maybe a

Mariann Sullivan: But you know, that's that, that comes up on social media.

But there's something, I don't think there's anything wrong with the name. I think we need to own it. We're allowed to give thanks.

John Yunker: Yeah. No, you're right. You're right.

We are. It's just, I would love

Mariann Sullivan: We just do it better than they do.

John Yunker: It's true. We don't, we don't eat animals. Um, yeah. So anyway, I, I think challenging traditions, uh, when you're a writer, traditions are a great source for conflict and a great source for, uh, or for drama. So that's another thing we talk about in the class.

Mariann Sullivan: Absolutely. Yeah.

Jasmin Singer: Uh, Maddie's

Mariann Sullivan: By the, the name of the organization I was thinking of is, um, Justify.

John Yunker: Justify. Okay. Yeah. I'll, I'll em out.

Jasmin Singer: My dogs are barking a lot right now...

Mariann Sullivan: Can't hear 'em.

Jasmin Singer: Okay, cool. So a big part of the book are prompts. Can you give us an example of the kind of prompt that you lay out in the book? And then maybe describe what you anticipate someone might do with it?

Midge Raymond: Have a look.

Mariann Sullivan: Choose one at random.

Midge Raymond: Um,

Mariann Sullivan: They're so good and they're so many of them, and they're very thought provoking.

Midge Raymond: Okay, I'll, I just opened to a page, I'll just read this one.

Write about your favorite animal when you were five years old, then 12, then 18. Um, feel free to add additional ages five to seven years apart depending on how old you are now. And then write about your favorite animal currently.

And then the third part of that is, uh, how has your, uh, relationship with animals or view of animals changed over the years?

And that, I think is interesting. A lot of our prompts are sort of like, you know, going back to how we thought of animals as kids when we didn't see much differences between the human and non-human as we do today. And just sort of think about that in your, as part of your writer's journey, you know, how did you grow up thinking about animals?

Um, how do you think of them now? And you know, how has that evolved? A lot of, um, we, we do one prompt I really like, and I I, I'm never gonna be able to find it in this moment, but it's, um, it's about writing a scene with an animal and a human. And then, um, usually we just have people write it and then we have them look at the pronouns they used. And, you know, most of the time, you know, most writers will use an it for an animal. And, um, you know, he, she they for, for humans. And it's, it's interesting, I actually taught a workshop a few weeks ago in which it was a small group, four or five students, they all used, um, none of them used it for an animal as a pronoun, which I thought was extraordinary 'cause that very rarely happens. And so we talk about how, and then I ask them to flip it so that the humans become it. And the animals are, he, she, they and you.

Yeah. And, and then how do they feel about that? And they all agree it's really creepy. And then we talk about why it should be creepy when we do it for animals too. And, you know, just getting those little details that make animals, um, not stand out as other quite so much. Um, and then we have all kind, you know, just so many prompts. There's hundreds of prompts and, um, we use a lot of quotes to inspire prompts. Um, you know, then we have timed prompts. We have, you know, writing letters to animals, writing letters from animals.

You know, just get some things that get your imagination going and sort of, you know, put you in the paws or talons, um, or, you know, hooves of other, other creatures as well.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. And, and crucially just, just help you start, start facing that, that blank, uh, that blank screen and getting something on it. Like instead of, oh, what do I write about? What do I write about?

It gives you something to write about and then you go from there.

Midge Raymond: Yep.

Mariann Sullivan: Really helpful.

Are they something that you use in the workshop?

Midge Raymond: We do. We do. Yeah. We spend quite a bit of time writing and um, and a lot of times, you know, the little open mics that we do, like, those will be little essays that came from writing prompts.

And um, and we've had people who, um, we don't see our self-paced students all the time, you know, because they're kind of doing it on their own. But one of our students recently was inspired to write a letter. Um, she actually sort of transcribed a letter from a local tomcat that she spoke with and sent it in, and it got published in a local publication. It was all about spay and neuter your pets.

And um, yeah, so that was a big success story just because it was cute, you know, it was from the tomcat's point of view. And that kind of thing kind of gets people reading and it gets people thinking in a slightly different way about this issue, which is, it's ridiculous we still have to talk about spay neuter these days, but we do.

Mariann Sullivan: We have a few more questions, but, um, but I, I, I don't wanna go over time and I, I really wanna get to talking about, um, the fact that your submissions are opening in January. Uh, can you tell us about that and, and how that works?

And just, just maybe a little, you know, I, I, mean, people want a big publisher of course, but there are things that you can offer, I think, that big publishers can't, so people should, uh, people should be aware of that.

Uh, if they, if for those of you who are listening, who, who do have, um, you know, the book half written.

John Yunker: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: That's not everybody, but there's a few I'm sure.

John Yunker: Yeah, we, we talk a lot. We've actually, some of our authors, we, we, we recommended they try to find an agent and go to a big publisher first because, you know, we, we think our, we think authors should, should be aware of everything. Really understand the industry, understand how agents work, and it's not a bad idea to try to find an agent, uh, uh, even if it could take a year.

And it can, and it's incredibly humbling and it's incredibly competitive. It's still nice to have someone who is getting you in the front door of the big publishers and, and just representing you, particularly when it comes to the contract part because contracts are, are scary and complicated. Um, but, but then again, big publishers, uh, are big and they publish a lot of books and you're one of many, many, many books and you might not necessarily get the sustained attention that you'll get from a smaller press.

And that is, that is, I think where we stand apart. Uh, you know, we're really small, small, but we. You know, in this call we're talking about books we published 10 years ago. Uh, we'll still do that. And we, we keep 'em in print and we, we, uh, we don't give up. You know, we're, now it's, in terms of opening for submissions, we're gonna be open just the month of January.

We're small, but we're open for fiction, nonfiction, definitely would love vegan centric fiction and nonfiction. That is something we're, we're continually looking for. Hope to see lots, lots of that. And, uh, there's no fee to submit. Um, and we'll, we're asking for just one work from, from each writer. So your best work.

And, um, yeah, check out our website. Join our newsletter, and then you'll, you'll be alerted when it, when it opens up. But, um, yeah, we're excited.

Jasmin Singer: How, how do people join the newsletter and find out more about it?

John Yunker: There's a subscribe, uh, form on the homepage of ashlandcreekpress.com under, under the, uh, about us. I think.

Because of our own writing, we've really, we've slowed down the past few years, but now, uh, we're, we're ramping up again, so we're looking forward to it.

Jasmin Singer: Love it. Uh, well, thank you all so much. I know you're gonna hang on with us for a q and a and, uh, I do a few extra questions for you as well, and I know some of our, our flock might too, since we're here with, with, uh, for Flock Friday. Uh, but it, it's, it's such an important topic in my opinion. I mean, it, it, it infiltrates every part of our life from the time where like a little baby until we are no more.

It's like, how are we writing about animals? And even when you said your prompt, think of an animal you loved at five, you know, et cetera, 18, yada, yada. I saw the light, the, the faces light up on the Zoom here because, and I thought, I started thinking of mine too, and it just like immediately transported me.

And that's what you do. That's what you're doing. You're transporting us. So thank you so much for joining us today on Our Hen House and, uh, for all that you're doing in, in this world.

Midge Raymond: Thank

John Yunker: So much for having

Midge Raymond: much.

I was just gonna say, yeah, so it's, amazing to be back and it, it did, Jasmin did make me realize how long we have known you and listened to you and been fans. So thank you for doing all that you do as well.

Jasmin Singer: Well, I appreciate that. I, I, I really look up to both of you and, and to what you're doing. So thank you.

And before we, before we, uh, conclude, I wanna thank all of you for tuning in and remind you to subscribe on your favorite pod catcher or on YouTube. Uh, and follow us on all of the socials @ourhenhouse.

We're in our end of year giving right now as well, and we have a triple match going on. So if you wanna learn more about that or if you want an opportunity to join live, uh, our interviews such as this one, check out ourhenhouse.org/support and we'll talk to you next time.