Building a Coalition Against Factory Farming with Matthew Dominguez

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, thank you. Uh, it's, it's wonderful to have you. And just a quick reminder before I get to that, um, about the Our Hen House podcast, Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays. And this, the long form interview, on Fridays.

The bonus for Flock members comes out on Mondays, and we're a podcast and we're on YouTube, which we say every week. But you know, maybe some of you aren't paying attention, so I'm saying it again. But please, wherever you listen, please subscribe and hit like. As you know, from everybody you listen to in any space, it really does make a difference. Matthew, welcome.

Matthew Dominguez: Well, thank you for having me. It's a real honor to be on the show. I've, I've been a listener for many, many years and, uh, it's great to be here.

Mariann Sullivan: Well that is, that is thrilling to hear. I can't tell you how often, I mean, it's not all the time. I don't wanna make it sound like that. As soon as we stop recording people say, oh, I'm on those... I, I'm an avid listener, so thank you for saying it right up front.

Matthew Dominguez: Of course.

Mariann Sullivan: I'm not sure all of our, a lot of things that people come on to talk about, a lot of our listeners are pretty familiar with 'cause they're pretty savvy about the movement, but I'm not sure they are that familiar with the work of Compassion in World Farming because of course it's been a huge force in the UK for many years and made a lot of progress there, but it's not as well known in the US.

So can you just start with a summary of what it is and what it does internationally, but also of course, specifically in the US where you're now heading up the, the, the deal.

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah, of course. Uh, yeah, it's Compassionate in World Farming is, a lot of folks don't know that it is the largest and the oldest farm animal organization on the planet. Uh, started in 1967 by a farmer who had a choice to either go down the path of becoming a factory farmer himself or to go and fight for animals.

And he and his wife chose to fight for animals, which is, uh, I can't think of a better mission, uh, than to, uh, have an organization that, that actually came from the roots of a farmer who chose to do the right thing. And at Compassion, the, the US office has been open for 10, roughly 10 years, a little more than 10 years, and I'm very honored to be the fourth Executive Director that's taken the helm here.

Uh, but it was founded, uh, by Leah Garces, who was the former president and CEO over at Mercy for Animals. And she started this organization just in her living room in Atlanta, Georgia. And it's now grown to, I would say, probably the third or fourth largest farm animal organization in the US. But I think one of the reasons why Compassion in World Farming in the US is a little less well known is because a lot of the work that we do is behind the scenes.

Uh, we work with companies and lawmakers. Uh, we're not typically the organization that is gonna be out in front having protests or running major campaigns against, uh, corporations or, or entities such as that. But we're really an organization that works behind the scenes to try to transition to a better food system.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, actually, I had planned to ask another question about this, and you kind of partly answered it, but maybe not fully. Since I haven't asked it yet, that's

totally forgivable. So, so I'll, I'll, I'll go there. But you really did just give a really key, uh, answer on how Compassion in World Farming USA, um, fits into the big picture.

Could, but could you talk a little bit about just the overview of the big picture of who's doing work for farm animals, um, in the US and kind of the differences in their approach. You've already talked about yours, but, uh, you know, I'm thinking maybe of, um, The Humane League, HSUS, and other major players just

uh, just, just... it sounds weird because our listeners are very savvy, but sometimes it's hard when you're an individual advocate to keep track of what the big players are players are doing

because of the, what you just said, A lot of it is behind the scenes.

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah, that's, uh, the ecosystem, although I, I think you and I would agree, the number of people fighting for farm animals is far too little, but the ecosystem of organizations and folks that we have in the United States fighting for farm animals is pretty extensive. Um, so it really, I think you can break 'em up into kind of two groups.

Uh, you have organizations that focus on, say, vegan outreach, uh, and organizations that work on, say, abolitionist types of avenues that they work on, which are great organizations I think of like Vegan Outreach and others that do some really wonderful work in that lane. But Compassion in World Farming kind of sits in a different category, which is more of the welfare work in addition to the food transition, uh, system.

So really transitioning our food system into something better. And so in those categories, when you talk about work to reduce suffering or increase the welfare of the animals in the system, while we also work to end factory farming, which is our mission at Compassion in World Farming, is to end factory farming by 2040.

You have a substantial number of groups. And so when I think of that ecosystem, I think of my good friends over at The Humane League, uh, one of my favorite organizations in the United States, uh, led by Dan Shannon and, and many wonderful people over there. And so they're, uh, a juggernaut for farm animals here in the US that work almost exclusively on corporate campaigns, working to get egg laying hens out of battery cages.

There's Mercy for Animals, of course. It's an organization that many of my good friends work over at, and they tend to be that very aggressive organization that works to push corporations and lawmakers to do the right things for farm animals. You of course have the Humane World for Animals, which many of us know it as the Humane Society of the United States.

Mariann Sullivan: Uh.

Matthew Dominguez: I worked there for, uh, almost five years where I was the director of public policy for farm animals. And while Humane World for Animals is one of the largest, if not the largest farm, uh, animal welfare group in the country, they have a division or a department that exclusively works on farm animals, uh, led by Carla, who's a good friend of mine.

And they do some incredible work in the food space with working with institutions to, to have chefs work, uh, inside schools and hospitals and other institutions to get them to put more plant-based food. While also on the legislative side ran by my good friend Chris Holbein, they work to pass laws to ban factory farming practices.

They work with companies to get them to shift to higher welfare systems. So, uh, those are really the big organizations that I think of. Of course, the A-S-P-C-A has a farm animal team that's doing work over there, and then there's Compassion in World Farming. And what's really great about this ecosystem? Oh, and there's one more that I, I, I can't, I can't exclude is Animal Equality.

Although Animal Equality is seen as more of an international organization,

Mariann Sullivan: Right.

Matthew Dominguez: Animal Equality is a phenomenal organization ran by Sharon who, um, they are, they're the folks on the ground. Uh, they're the ones on the streets pounding the pavement, holding companies accountable for, particularly when they don't do the right things for animals.

So it's a big ecosystem. And there's other groups that I, I, I haven't even mentioned, but when I think of the big groups,

Mariann Sullivan: the spot and if you left out somebody, uh, I apologize for, for,

Matthew Dominguez: It's, it's, there's, the good thing is there's so many of them, they're out there working, but,

Mariann Sullivan: people Yeah.

Matthew Dominguez: But we all play a different role. And I actually think that when we talk about strategies and we talk about the work that we're collectively doing to end the suffering of farm animals in factory farms is we don't need organizations to replicate each other. I mean, we don't need two Humane Leagues. We don't need two Animal Qualities. We don't need two Compassion in World Farmings. What we need is an ecosystem of organizations that do different things, uh, and do incredible work in partnership, but then also attack this from different angles.

I mean, there's a, there's an old saying that like, I mean, factory farming is not gonna end because of one strategy or one organization, or one purpose or one person. It's gonna end by death by a thousand cuts. I mean, it's going to be a multi-pronged approach of corporate work, legislative work, meat reduction, plant forward, a whole host of strategies that are going to finally transition us away from what we can agree is the largest suffering of, of any creature on this planet, which is factory farming.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I, I totally agree. And even if there were one particular method that was the best, we don't know what it is, so we might as well keep

Matthew Dominguez: We do not.

Mariann Sullivan: Trying 'em all 'cause we haven't, we sure haven't figured that one out yet. Um,

I have one more po... that was great. That was a great overview. helpful. But I have one more kind of background question, just because Compassion in World Farming started as a UK organ...

I, I mean maybe you're totally

separate organizations, but I

assume there's

some linkage and I'm just curious, like, are there difference... they kind of had different histories in the development of the farmed animal movement or,

Matthew Dominguez: yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: movement in general. Are there differences in the approach taken by Compassion in World Farming in the UK or, and, and more internationally and, and the way you approach it because

you're in the US?

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah. I think, I think that you're certainly right. So, uh, we are, uh, a part of CIWF, Compassion in World Farming Global is an organization that has offices in, in, I think, almost a dozen countries now. Um, everything from South Africa to the United States, to all over Europe. And of course the UK is where we are founded.

Um. The great thing about this organization, uh, when you look to our global CEO Philip, uh, Lymbery, it is, he is. He's a, he's a very thoughtful man, and while the UK is very British, uh, and uh, culturally very, um, very focused on the UK and Europe, one of the great things that Philip has done while he's expanded the organization into other countries is giving autonomy to the country heads, such as myself in the US, to figure out strategies that work within the confines of the place that you live.

Um, as you can imagine, while there are of course similarities between ourselves and the UK, the United States is a very different beast. Um, I think in this political climate, there's never been a time that's really emphasized just how different the United States is, than almost any country on this planet.

And that requires different strategies to approach any goal that you have. And so in the US um, I would say some of the biggest differences that I have seen is that, um, a lot of the work that we do here has to be raised in a level of, it takes a longer period of time to get things done. Uh, working with companies and lawmakers, our system is just bogged down with political infighting.

Uh, it is a really, really tough, uh, place to fight for farm animals, particularly in a time where I think democracy is at stake and we're having major issues just for humans and, um, just governance in general. In the UK, one thing I've noticed, when a company makes a commitment to do something, they live up to that commitment.

Um, and oftentimes it doesn't take the pressure that it then takes, say, in the United States where companies make commitments and then the commitments come up to their timeline and then they decide they don't wanna do it or push it back. Um, I just think that,

Mariann Sullivan: given me one more thing to be embarrassed about, about being an American.

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah, it's, it's, it's an, it's unfortunate. Uh, so at CIWF, we are an organization that really focuses on having a global Footprint because while factory farming may have started in the United States, it is not a issue of the United States. Ending factory farming is a global priority. This is about saving our planet.

This is about reducing suffering to the magnitude that's hard to comprehend. So at the end of the day, this is a global problem, not a US problem. This isn't a UK problem or a, uh, Mexico problem. This is a problem that is a global imperative that we end really this meteor headed towards Earth of total destruction, which is animal agriculture wiping us out.

Um, and so at the end of the day, we approach it from a holistic, global approach, but then we have the ability to tailor those approaches, uh, based on the region or country or state or area that we live. And that's, that's, you know, Philip's priority for us is being able to have that tailored approach, which we have here in the United States.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, and I mean, I certainly have questions about, uh, how difficult it is to work on legislation at the, I mean, at the federal level. I assume it's impossible. I don't know, like do we even have a federal government? But, but there's also something I wanted to ask you about the, the difference in the movements too. Um. It isn't as prevalent as it used to be, but I think the American movement has always kind of been influenced by, by the idea that supporting welfare reforms could actually backfire by

encouraging

people to feel comfortable eating animals while inevitably, you know, it's gonna still be very, very bad, even if it's a little better before. And as I say, I don't think this has the, the stranglehold on the movement that it did for a little while when the movement was very tiny. Um, but I remember back a long ways I've been, I've been doing whatever I'm doing for a while. So what is your, I, I won't... i'm tempted to just go into all of my opinions about things sometimes, but I wanna actually hear your opinions.

How do you, do you feel that that's still something of a, um, an issue in American advocacy and, and what's your response to it?

Matthew Dominguez: I, I fully agree with you that nearly a decade or so ago, there was far more conversation around that. Uh, and I think we've shifted over the course of, say, the last, I would say five years or so, where I think that folks that hold the abolitionist view that abolitionists work or just vegan outreach is the only thing that we should be doing and, and, and disagree fundamentally with the welfare work, I think that that's the minority view now. Um, I think that it's, I think

Mariann Sullivan: it's still there and it still

Matthew Dominguez: of course it is.

Mariann Sullivan: but it's, it's a minority.

Matthew Dominguez: I, I think it is the minority now, but I don't think it's, the majority of people don't believe that the, the work that's being done by abolitionists or folks that work on vegan outreach or do that type of work, it's not a belief that that doesn't have its role.

I think that what we've realized is that we are not facing this choice of, oh, do we go down the path of YX or Y or Z? It's, we need to do this together to reduce the suffering of, uh, farm animals or the, the suffering that they go through. At the end of the day, I think that there's a place for all these strategies and I have become resigned, and this is probably not a view that a lot of people would be happy to hear, but I think we also have to just understand that we have done some of the other work around trying to promote veganism and get people to just stop eating animals. And there are statistically less vegans today than they were, uh, as a portion of the population, than there was five years ago.

The strategy just simply hasn't worked. But what has worked is raising the consciousness around the need to protect farm animals. We have seen more people shifting to flexitarian diets and people reducing their meat consumption, uh, for plant-based food. Uh, we've seen the increase of welfare, uh, in the systems that currently exists.

So at the end of the day, I think that a lot of people have just kind of understood that this, this perfection that folks were shooting for, um, was actually getting in the way of better. And I think that at the end of the day, better is better than nothing. And so I, I am a strong believer that, uh, all of these interventions that we work on, whether it's welfare, whether it's meat reduction, plant forward, vegan outreach, whatever it is, I think it plays an important role.

And one of the things that I ask folks that say that push back on the welfare issue and say, I don't believe in that, that's not work that I wanna do. It doesn't have an impact. I think about nearly every person in my life and every movement leader, you know, the folks that are doing some of the most important work on this planet for farm animals.

Nearly every single one of us started from a welfare perspective. It was a ballot measure. It was a cage free campaign. It was a piece of legislation. I can't tell you today how many leaders that I see now in the movement who started on my gestation crate campaign in New Jersey, or a ballot measure in California.

It was a welfare reform that allowed them entry into this conversation. And it starts off with this simple notion of, can we at least agree that farm animals are deserving of protection? Should they be able to stand up, turn around, and extend their lens? And what I find from most people, the answer isn't yes, but I end it there.

It's yes. Oh crap. I never realized that I actually think that these animals are deserving of protection. And then the journey continues into wanting higher welfare and higher welfare. And then when you realize that high, the highest welfare isn't really possible, that's when people then decide to reduce consumption from factory farms.

So I actually think it's the entry point. I think it's the, it's the way to allow people into the conversation that isn't overwhelming, like just completely get rid of all animal products out of your life.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I, I mean, I, I would agree, totally agree with that. I do like to, I don't like to give up the word abolitionist. I like to think that I'm an abolitionist. It's like my ultimate goal. I don't know whether we will ever reach that, but I can have it as my ultimate goal and I'm not giving it away to anybody else.

But yeah, the idea that that, um, that welfare reforms would make people feel better about eating animals runs into the problem that nobody seems to feel bad about eating animals now. So, uh, they don't really, they don't really need to feel that much better. Uh, so, uh, yeah. And, and, and the, the idea that it's doing, like you were saying, you know, some person might wanna do vegan advocacy, some people don't wanna do welfare.

I think that's fine. Like, you know,

do what, what you are called to do. But I think we have moved to some extent, past that idea that people are working for welfare reforms are doing harm. Um, that, that was the thing that really got in the way. And I myself have always kind of drawn my personal line as supporting welfare reform.

I'm never against anything that would improve the life of an animal, but never promoting meat. It doesn't mean, I think because as you were just saying, like, we're never gonna reach the highest welfare, the, the welfare that most people probably think is already in effect, uh, uh. that's just not gonna happen.

So, so is, is, is where do, where do you draw that line between what you're willing to promote and what you're not?

Matthew Dominguez: I think that that's a great question and it's something that I personally and I think members of my team confront every day and try to think about what is ultimately, I think about it this way, what is in the best interest of animals? Uh, if I were to, and, and, and I know that this is, and I know,

Mariann Sullivan: though.

Matthew Dominguez: And I know that this is, seems silly, but oftentimes when I think about before we launch a campaign or before we work on something or before we agree to something with a company, I think about like actually sitting down, and if I were to communicate with a pig or a chicken or a cow, or the animal that's affected by the thing that I'm working on and say, you know, does this, is this something you would want me doing? Is this bettering your life or the lives of the animals that will come after you? And I think for me, the line that in the sand that I have drawn is that if reasonable minds can agree that the thing that I'm working on, whether it's a policy or outreach or campaign, if it will ultimately improve the lives of animals, then I'm morally obligated to do it because I can't allow my philosophical beliefs or what I think sometimes can be our egos that are, yes, we want some ultimate goal that may seem out of reach. I don't think it is. But at the end of the day, it's not about us. It's not about how it makes me feel. It's not about whether I feel bad about doing something or I feel good about doing something. It is, does this make a tangible difference in the lives of animals? And if the answer is yes, even if it makes me uncomfortable because of my philosophical beliefs.

I am morally obligated to do the thing that will benefit animals. And so I think that that's where we get into issues on the difference between like welfare and folks that don't support that is this belief that we're doing harm. And I don't think we are. I mean, in the United States, over the course of the last decade, multiple organizations and hundreds of advocates have been fighting to get egg laying hens out of barren battery cages.

And of course, I know a lot of people that listen to this podcast know what a battery cage is. But for the folks that don't, this is a barren wire cage. And as you can imagine as a bird, especially with the way that their, their legs and everything is built, standing on in wire cages, stacked on top of each other, dozens in a cage with each other, don't have enough room to spread their wings.

These animals live in a state of absolute misery their entire life. Because of the advocacy of the welfare organizations, there are over a hundred million birds almost every year that no longer live in barren battery cages that live in cage free systems. Now, cage free is not the end all, be all. Cage free is not perfect, but we can at least agree that for a hundred million birds, them not living in a barren battery cage where they can't spread their wings, they can't engage in natural behaviors where they are fully just abused their entire life, living in a system that is a higher welfare system, where I think for many cage, for many hens living in cage free systems, they have at least maybe a life worth living. That is a substantial difference. A hundred million birds. And so I can't in good conscious tell myself, well, what I really want is them to be pasture-based or for us not to have eggs at all.

Granted, that may be your philosophical belief. But how would you explain that to a hundred million birds that no longer live in misery, and I can't, I, I couldn't justify that.

Mariann Sullivan: Can I just go back to my question?

Matthew Dominguez: Of course.

Mariann Sullivan: I, I totally agree with you and I, I, I do think that most of our listeners know a lot of this, so I don't,

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: I really have a lot of questions to ask you. So, I mean, I guess where I would draw the line, and I think that one of the, a lot of your, at, at least the movements, messaging on this really does draw this line, I think.

I agree that battery cages are probably the worst thing that we've ever done to anybody, and there's no question about that. And I don't think that, um, encouraging people not to, uh, not to buy those eggs is, is in any way a problem. I, I just wouldn't say I, I wouldn't say cage free eggs are great.

I mean, I wouldn't, I

Matthew Dominguez: Of course.

Mariann Sullivan: free eggs. That's

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: the line. And I think that's a pretty reasonable line. And I

Matthew Dominguez: I think it's a hundred percent fair.

Mariann Sullivan: One of the places I think the movement very, I think the movement has gotten so much better at this than it used to be, as I recall. There used to be so that temptation to like, if you're going to be against something to support the alternative, and the only alternative is another form of, but you know, it's a higher circle of hell. Um, so,

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: but the, be the, the, the term, the better chicken commitment, I think that's so smart. It's very subtle, but it doesn't say a good chicken commitment or the best chicken commitment.

It says the better chicken commitment. Do you agree that that's kind of the way the messaging has been moving in the movement to try to like be more careful about treading that line between, between actually supporting, um, the consumption of animal foods and, and, and not, uh, and con very strongly condemning the worst forms and somehow leaving out a little bit in the middle?

And I'm, I'm just wondering like if you, if you feel that you do that and how hard it, it must be very difficult to tread that line when you're trying to negotiate. I mean, 'cause you actually, you actually deal with producers and, and farmers and, and people who are doing this work. Anyway, that was an insane question.

It went on forever. I don't know whether it was really a question, but play through. I I have total faith that you can just play through.

Matthew Dominguez: Of course. I, I think these are, and I, the thing I love about this is these are the conversations we should be having, uh, both internally within the movement and externally with, with our friends and partners and our adversaries. Like this is a conversation because anyone who would come onto your podcast and say that they have the answer, I would be very weary of anyone.

We have not figured this out. I mean, there, I, I can't tell you. If I look back over my career 10 years ago, there were things that I were, I was working on 10 years ago that I thought were the most important things to be doing for farm animals that I could be doing with my life. And now I look back and I chuckle and think, man, I can't believe I thought that was the thing that I should be working on.

But it builds off of itself. I mean, the first laws I ever passed were in Rhode Island. I banned gestation crates, veal crates and cattle tail docking. I thought it was the most important thing I could ever do in the world is to pass these laws in these small states where these production methods are not even used.

And of course, it, it led to larger states, it led to Massachusetts banning them and having a ballot measure where not only bans the production, but the sale of them in the state. So I think it, it is about progress, but to your question specifically. Yes, I think for a very long time we've, we've focused on the cruelty.

We have focused on what we don't want people to consume, pork from gestation crates, battery caged eggs, all of these things. And I think that there's a fine line between promoting and advancing and saying, you should be eating these, but giving people an alternative and say that if you're going to be participating in eating animals or buying products that come from animals, the very least you can do is have the highest welfare systems that you're buying them from.

Because it puts in their mind that one, these animals are deserving of protections. They shouldn't be abused. And it's also a subtle hint, and I think that humans... I think in this day and age, we have so much horror and so much death and destruction that sometimes talking about things in a positive light allows for that message to resonate and break through what feels like an echo chamber of just evil, hatred and a lack of progress.

So for me, I do think that there is something to be said for, listen, I'm gonna meet you where you're at. I understand that you consume animal products, and if you're gonna choose to continue doing that, can we least agree that you should be buying them from the highest welfare systems that you can because the systems that you're currently supporting are abusive, they're exploitative, they're horrible for animals, they're destroying the planet, they're destroying your health.

All of these reasons. And I think it plants a seed. And so at the end of the day, I do have to walk a fine line. There are times I don't feel comfortable with things. Um. But then again, I have to go back to is this because like I have this philosophical belief, but I have to wear different hats. There's, Matt is an advocate and an activist in my own right.

But then there's Matt as the Executive Director of Compassion in World Farming, where we have a very ex explicit mission that we're working on and the strategies that we use to get to a world where we don't have factory farming. And at the very least, if animals are gonna be raised, that it be done in a nature friendly, regenerative way that animals are at least treated with the highest level of welfare that they can.

I think that that's a beautiful future. The day... I was raised on a cattle ranch.

The day I think that farm animals, every farm animal on this planet, the day that the worst thing that's happening to them is what was happening on my family farm, I think I'll probably be working on something else because it will be such a reduction of suffering.

Um, so at the end of the day, I, it is a fine line. I don't have the answers, but what I do focus on is, are we making tangible progress in pushing the industry? Are we pushing higher welfare? Are we doing something that's better for animals?

And that's how I try to measure everything that we do here at Compassion. And sometimes it's uncomfortable. Sometimes we have to change trajectory, but we're doing the best that we can.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, and I mean, I'm, I'm really not trying to be unfair here. It's, you know, it's very easy for me to spout off about where I would draw the line. You have to actually be talking to these people and doing deals with these people, and that makes things very difficult sometimes. And, uh, and I do, I mean, I do wanna clarify though, I don't think that people who, who take a really hard line on this issue are necessarily choosing their, their moral purity over what they think works.

Because I think sometimes they think that is what will work. And that's the important question we, or at least some of

Matthew Dominguez: Yep.

Mariann Sullivan: That's the important question we should all be asking. And of course, none of us have the answer. That's the whole problem. I feel like one of the most salient factors about welfare campaigns for many an animal advocates, I mean, certainly for me, is that, and, and the kind of welfare you are talking about, certainly. By requiring higher welfare, you of course improve the lives of those animals that are now trapped in these horrific, uh, situations. An additional benefit is that you require the industry to absorb the appropriate costs of raising animals for food. And, uh, as we all know, if we have animals at home, raising animals costs a fortune if you do it well. Like it's not cheap. Uh, and, and if we could impose that cost on the industry, it will also encourage people to, you know, I mean, most people won't be able to afford it anymore. However, I would imagine, and this would be a problem that you would have to face, that in campaigning you have to argue that, oh, this won't raise the cost of food. Like, you know, 'cause that's the third rail for politicians. Obviously you cannot argue that you wanna raise the cost of food. And so we are caught in this like, kind of conundrum of how do we argue for higher welfare while arguing it's not gonna cost any money when we all know that caring for animals costs money.

Alright, another long, um, speech pretending to be question, but it really is a question. How do you square that circle?

Matthew Dominguez: What's really heartbreaking when you actually think about the cost associated with the higher welfare. I mean, of course if, if we were to shift, uh, current industrial farming, uh, fully away from its current form into nature friendly regenerative style farming, there would be a significant increase in cost and there would need to be a significant reduction of, of animal products.

People would need to shift a considerable amount of their diet to plant-based if we were to have that type of, uh, food system,

which would be better.

Mariann Sullivan: Before you, I mean, I can, I can see where you're going, but I just wanna mention that was the, that was the kind of system you said that if we got there, you would do something else. Like that, you see that as like

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah, I.

Mariann Sullivan: That's a win.

Matthew Dominguez: Think that that is a,

Mariann Sullivan: That's

Matthew Dominguez: that's a huge, huge win.

Mariann Sullivan: But that would cost a lot of money.

Matthew Dominguez: Of course. But one of the things that's really interesting is that, uh, the pricing of our, of animal products is really broken in this country. So, the degree of subsidies that go into, uh, promoting and propping up factory farming is to the tunes of billions and billions and billions of dollars.

So what you have is you actually have a playing field that's uneven. So let's just say that there's a family farmer that does, you know, that raises their animals in the highest welfare system possible. Of course, the food that's coming from those systems are much more expensive, but it's not necessarily just because they have higher welfare, it's because they're not getting the subsidies that industrial farms, like, you know, Tyson and other food companies are getting from the federal government, actually getting from you and me.

It's our taxpayer dollars that go into this. There was a study that was done by the egg producers themselves. So think about this, the cost to a consumer to switch from caged eggs to cage free, which whether you agree that you're okay with cage-free, we can at least agree that that is a substantial difference in reduction of suffering in a higher welfare system.

There's no one could argue that it's not. It's less than a penny per egg. So it's roughly, you know, 12 to 20 cents per dozen. This is an industry that would rather torture millions and millions of birds, hundreds of millions of birds each year to make pennies. That's the difference. So what we are actually fighting for right now, and if it tells you about where our starting point is, we're not even in a place to talk about really super high welfare.

We're still trying to get rid of the most evil forms. I mean, when you look at gestation crates, when you look at battery cages, when you look at confinement systems that lock these animals up in a place where they can't stand up and turn around and extend their limbs. The cost is actually not as much as we think it is.

And so at the end of the day, if anything that demonstrates just how evil some of these industries are. When you look at the pork producers, um, the, the, the fact that they want to fight to hold on to one of the cruelest confinement systems on this planet, which is a gestation crate, when there are farmers that have transitioned away where the cost is not substantial and what we know with the polls that have come out, the studies that have been done, consumers are willing to pay the additional cost for higher welfare.

The problem is the average consumer doesn't know where their food is coming from. When I talk to people and say, do you know what a gestation crate is? Do you know what a battery cage is? Do you know about these practices? The vast majority of people have never heard of it. They have no idea that this was happening.

They don't want it in their food system, and at the end of the day, they already think it's illegal. I can't tell you the number of people that have told me, oh, wait, how is that not already illegal?

Mariann Sullivan: Course people think that, uh, the Animal Welfare Act means like, oh, animals are have

Matthew Dominguez: It doesn't even apply to farm animals.

Mariann Sullivan: Uh, yeah, of course,

Matthew Dominguez: So

Mariann Sullivan: Ridiculous. They think there are laws, they think there are

Matthew Dominguez: When faced with the opportunity, when you look at California, when you look at, uh, question three in Massachusetts, the opposition made the argument that this is gonna raise your, raise your food prices. I think erroneously. I think they lied to the extent that it would, but they asked basically, uh, voters in Massachusetts and in California were put forward.

Do you want animals to be treated better and have better housing systems and not confined in a space where they can't turn around? Or are you willing to accept those welfare systems and the opposition arguing that likely food prices are gonna increase? Overwhelmingly, in California, over 60%, in Massachusetts, over 70% of voters actively chose that argument that they wanted higher welfare, even if it increased food prices, because they do not want food coming from tortured animals. The problem that we face in this country, and I think globally, the collective budget of the farm animal movement, if you were to add all the budgets of Humane Welfare for Animals and Compassion in World Farming and Mercy for Animals, and THL, if you put all of our money in a bucket, it doesn't even come close to the marketing budget of a company like Tyson or JBS.

So at the end of the day, we are just simply outspent when it comes to being able to go and talk directly to the public. I fundamentally believe that if we were able to have a conversation with every single person in this country, the vast majority of people would say that we are not in support of the torturous things that are happening to animals.

We want to move away from these systems, but unfortunately, that conversation is just not one that we have the finances to do.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. And, um, I, I just wanted to, uh, add that I think it's really true that when given this, I mean, and I think this has been shown and it shows how important the uh, systemic work is. When people are asked to vote on, on whether this we should have gestation crate free pork, they're like, yeah, that's, that's wrong, we shouldn't do it.

If, if, if you just put it on the market and let people choose, do you wanna buy this higher, uh, cost pork? And at that moment they don't necessarily choose that you have to. 'Cause I mean, and I think it makes sense. They're like, why should you know, my, my being broke isn't gonna help these animals.

We have to do something big, like everybody has to be stopped. So I think it totally makes sense that it has, these kind of reforms have to be systemic. It's never going to be the case that just putting higher welfare food on the market would compete. I think that's been established.

The other thing I wanna ask you too is like, why is the pork industry doing this?

I mean, I have never seen an industry, like they have done everything. They've gone to the Supreme Court, they're, they've introduced legislation, they're introducing more legislation now, like it's over and over and over for something that people are horrified by.

Matthew Dominguez: It is.

Mariann Sullivan: What, do you have any insight into that?

Like what do they just not wanna lose anything because they think that'll, you know, it'll just start a stampede?

Matthew Dominguez: I I, I have in...

Mariann Sullivan: No, no idea?

Matthew Dominguez: In this industry, in this, in farm animals. So food production, I've been working on this for decades. I have never fought against an industry, uh, the, you know, the National Pork Producers Council, the NPPC, um, and it's fair to say there are many people in the pork industry that, uh, see the writing on the wall.

And there are many farmers that are moving away from gestation crates. I mean, the, the, despite the fact that their, their trade association, the NPPC, you know, who are supposed to represent them on the federal and state level, is completely ignoring the wishes of family farmers across this country that, that want to comply with Prop 12 and question three.

Mariann Sullivan: And they would like a level playing field so they don't have this, like different states are different. Let's just, just come up with a system.

Matthew Dominguez: At the end of the day, I think it's, I think it's ego. I think that they don't want to admit that they've lost.

Um, they certainly don't like that the, I mean, the NPPC, every time I have ever battled them, we have won. They were the ones pushing ag gag bills across this country. Uh, you know, over a decade ago where they were trying to ban undercover investigations.

Um, we beat them time and time again. Every state that we have done a ballot measure on gestation crates, we have won. Many states where we didn't even need a ballot measure, where we went to the legislature and fought through the legislature, we have won. The debate is over. Gestation crates do not have a place in our food system.

They do not have a place in the pork industry, and they are just refusing to just accept what consumers have told them, and voters have told them over and over again is we do not want mother pigs locked in crates so small they can't even turn around. Nobody would agree with that. I think it's ego, I think it's arrogance.

I think that they are just, uh, a group of individuals who just refuse to do what their consumers and what the public is telling them, and it's going to be to their detriment. I mean, you, if you look at the pork industry, it has been shrinking. It is, it, it, it's, it's, it's an industry that is behind the times.

They, they are just... if anything, I'm glad that they're fighting because they're losing trust with their own consumers. Because at the end of the day, all we have to do is point to this is an industry that s still supports locking pigs in crates. And a lot of people do not like that. So, um, they have gone to the Supreme Court and lost to try to nullify question three and pro, uh, prop 12.

Mariann Sullivan: stopped them.

Matthew Dominguez: No, they'll continue. I think they're gonna continue fighting. I mean, look at the number of companies. I mean, they, you look at almost every major company on this, in this, on this planet has, has gestation crate free policies. They are moving away from gestation crates. Consumers don't want it. Companies don't want it.

State laws have been... I mean, it is in more than a dozen states in the United States, it is considered animal cruelty, a violation of statute to lock a pig in a crate, uh, like they do the writings on the wall. Um, they're just, they're just, uh.

Mariann Sullivan: I was reading an industry article. It wasn't the pork industry, it was just some commentator or whatever, talking about how expensive it is to, um, have a a as compared to the, if you have to build, um, a, a crate free barn system for your pigs, it's so expensive. And she cited some huge number and then she put in a footnote.

She had to admit this would be to build a new one, not to, change the, the gestation crate facility you already have

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: I mean, it's not like they're building the Plaza Hotel for these pigs. It's just like they're, they're still really crowded. They're still, uh, you know, they still live, like I always say, a higher circle of hell, but at least it's a higher circle. And. It was, oh, I know what I, you were probably at HSU. This was a long time ago, but I remember when the egg industry had actually signed on with HSUS, it was a huge thing, to a federal bill that

Matthew Dominguez: Yep.

Mariann Sullivan: rid of the battery cage federally. I mean, I

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: enriched cages, but it wasn't battery cages.

It would've been an unbelievable win. They had, the egg industry had signed on and the pork industry opposed it, so it never passed.

Matthew Dominguez: I mean, it's, it's, it... yeah. I, I worked on that and so, yeah, the HSUS and, uh, the United Egg Producers went to Congress and the egg industry said, We want to be, uh, regulated. We want a federal ban on the barren battery cage to transition into a better system. Agreed. It's, it was the enriched colony cages. And I, I have some, my own thoughts on whether or not that was the right thing to do, but at the time, it felt like the right thing to do and would've been a major victory, and I think it would've probably pushed, uh, things possibly further to cage free. But at the end of the day, you're right, it was the pork producers that came in and killed the egg producers' desire to have a federal bill. And so they are very powerful. Uh, the pork producers have a tremendous amount of, um, power within Congress and also in state legislatures across the, the country.

But, you know, at the end of the day, what they don't have is they don't have consumers backing them. They don't have voters. Uh, and the vast majority of people, if you were to ask, and we have, I mean we've done poll after poll after poll. The vast majority of people do not agree with gestation rates. They think that they're abhorrent.

Uh, they, they agree like we, that it is animal cruelty and there's no place for it. The industry can't even get their own facts straight. I mean, like you said, you cited it where she said, well, the cost of building a new facility would be extreme. Well, there's a lot of producers that have, there's a lot of farmers and producers that have already transitioned out of gestation crates into Prop 12 and question three compliant facilities,

Mariann Sullivan: they're taking their

Matthew Dominguez: it's cost them very.

Mariann Sullivan: and,

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah. And converting them.

Mariann Sullivan: them. I mean, that's a much, much lower cost, which she didn't mention how much

Matthew Dominguez: And if you amortize that over 30 years in the life of the building and all of that, it, it really, there is not, uh, an increase, uh, to any large degree. So they are an untrustworthy industry. There, there's a famous quote by a spokesperson from the NPPC many, many years ago that said, we don't even know if the pig knows she can't turn around.

This is one of the most highly intelligent creatures on this planet. Pigs are maybe top five land animal intelligence. You're telling me that the pork industry didn't know that she doesn't know she can't turn around. It just goes to show that they have no respect for the animals. Um, and at the end of the day, while there are producers, I mean, I, I know many producers in the pork industry that are moving away, um, that have said, I mean, there's a... during, uh, the farmer fly in to fight the Eats Act, which is the piece of federal legislation in the Save Our Bacon Act, which would essentially nullify states from having the power to be able to regulate, um, animal cruelty and food safety issues within their own borders.

Um, it's federal preemption, it's horrific. Uh, there was a farmer that was a gestation crate, he had gestation crates in his supply chain, and he said this was a mistake. We made a mistake by going in this direction, in the name of what we believed was efficiency, and it was completely, uh, divorced of morals and ethics.

And so there's a lot of farmers that wanna move away from this. And I know a lot of farmers that are really pissed off that the NPPC spends their dues and the money that goes back to them through the checkoff program and others are being spent to fight battles that they continually lose. The Supreme Court.

Mariann Sullivan: And somebody's making money.

Matthew Dominguez: I mean, of course.

Mariann Sullivan: Somebody's getting paid.

Matthew Dominguez: Gestation crates will come to an end. It's just a matter of when, not if.

Mariann Sullivan: You, uh, you, I mean, you mentioned the Eats Act and, and that's one of your campaigns. But actually we've talked a lot about it and, and we've already talked a little about the whole subject. What I really wanna talk about is something else you touched on. Um, but we, you didn't go into the campaign, which I think might be just beginning this Food Not Feed campaign about subsidies.

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah. It's a really, really important campaign that we're running and it's one, so like at Compassion in World Farming, it's, it's important to note that the way that we operate is really under two pillars. So we have one pillar that focuses on, uh, increasing the welfare or reducing of the suffering of the animals currently in the system.

We, while we seek to fix the food system, which is pillar two, it's the transition to a new food system. We can't ignore that there are currently billions of animals trapped in a system that we can improve their welfare while we also fight to transition to a new one. And so the Food Not Feed campaign that we've launched globally is a massive report that basically shows just how inefficient it is to feed factory farms.

So essentially the way to think about this is that most people don't realize, and I think if people think about it, they would know. It reminds me of a lot of people don't realize that, you know, dairy cows produce milk because they give birth to young. Most people just think dairy cows need to be milk or they will explode.

But then when they think about it, they're like, okay, that makes sense.

Mariann Sullivan: old I was before I

Matthew Dominguez: It's understandable. So in the food not so with, so our food,

Mariann Sullivan: the planet,

Matthew Dominguez: Exactly right. In the Food Not Feed campaign, what we're doing is we're highlighting just how inefficient the system is. Uh, that is factory farming. So. We in the United States and globally grow grains and corn and cereal to essentially then feed that to an animal, and then that animal is then raised, slaughtered, and then fed to us.

Of every hundred calories that are grown in, whether it's United States or globally, after it goes through that system, only about three to 25, uh, of those calories are then fed to humans. So you have a caloric loss, a waste of food by 75, 80, 90, 95%.

That is highly inefficient. And at a time where in the United States we have roughly 47 to 50 million people that go to bed hungry that are living in food insecurity. And I think it's roughly, uh, three to 4 million of them are children. They don't have enough food to eat. So at a time where people are having food insecurity, can't feed their families, we are feeding edible food to farm animals to then only get about three to 25% of the caloric outtake of those.

It's in highly, in highly, highly inefficient system. And so what we're doing is we're raising awareness that we should, in the United States and globally, we should stop growing crops and subsidizing crops to the tune of six to $7 billion a year of taxpayer dollars in the United States. Stop subsidizing the growing of food to then feed to farm animals, to then feed to humans because it's inefficient.

What we need to do is we need to invest those subsidies into farmers and producers that are raising vegetables, that they're raising fruit, that they are producing food that can be fed directly to humans. So it's really an important campaign to realize just how inefficient the factory farming system is for animal agriculture and how we truly need to shift away from the current model because it's not efficient.

It is destroying our soil, it's destroying the air, it is destroying, uh, our planet. And we can shift away from that. We just have to make the conscious choice to do it. And so the campaign's highly important. Um, it's part of that pillar two work that we do, which is raising awareness and transitioning to a better food system.

One that is much better for, for the animals, that's better for humans, and then of course better for the planet.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Do you specifically go into, uh, supporting plant-based diets? I mean, I.

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah. Uh, I, I, I think that, that it is,

Mariann Sullivan: I mean, the obvious outcome of, I mean, as you've said, and I've said, this is the obvious outcome of, of making any progress for farmed animals, is that there, there would be, be far fewer of them. Um,

Matthew Dominguez: Yes.

Mariann Sullivan: I would like none, but far fewer of them no matter what we're gonna do.

So inevitably, and they would be much more expensive, presumably, unless they're heavily subsidized. And, uh, and so kind of like inevitable part of it that, that supporting the people eating more plants, I, I just didn't know whether you had specific campaigns around that

or whether

you, uh, you, uh, stuck to your lane in advocating for welfare reform.

Matthew Dominguez: We do the combination of everything. So when you look at the companies that we work with, we work with companies to get them to transition out of, uh, low welfare and into higher welfare systems. So we're working with major corporations to end the battery cage, to move to cage free, to get rid of gestation crates, um, to get rid of some of the most horrific practices that are in the industry.

But we also work with the same companies to help increase the number of plant-based food options that they have on their menus or the food that they produce. So at the end of the day, it's a multi-pronged approach. And yes, uh, we absolutely work on plant-based food. We want to increase the amount. And when I think about the ultimate future, you know, by 2040 or whatever that date is, that we seek to end factory farming.

It will be a day where people have to consume less animal products. I mean, at the end of the day, it is not sustainable. Uh, we are currently, uh, de... we are currently using resources well outside the bounds of this planet, and we face a moral imperative of, it is we need to shift to a much more holistic, regenerative, nature friendly system because it is at the expense of the ability for this planet to be inhabitable.

This is extinction that we're talking about. It is not outside the bounds of realistically that we're gonna be facing in 20, 30, 40 years a planet that cannot house the population. And a big portion of the reason that that is happening is because of the choices that we're making with our food system.

Mariann Sullivan: Well, do you specifically go into climate? I mean, is climate one of your, because I, I feel like, you know, we've just decided in this country to ignore the fact there's climate change, it's just not, not an issue anymore. Like we're just, we're just gonna hope it goes away. But, uh, obviously it would be a huge advocacy issue for you if people were listening.

Matthew Dominguez: We approach this, I mean, even though we're an animal welfare, animal protection organization, we also work from the environmental standpoint. I mean, growing food, uh, growing food to feed to farm animals. And the way that we currently have our food system up, it is the, one of the number one causes, if not number one, if not, uh, you know, at least number two or number three of deforestation, loss of nature for wild animals.

It harms local communities. It's polluting our water. It's destroying our soil. So at the end of the day, this isn't just an animal welfare issue. Of course, the reason I do it, I think the reason that you do your work and many others is because of animals. Like, I fundamentally work on this because I don't like the fact that animals are tortured, and I want to reduce as much suffering as I can.

But there are massive impacts of our work. The work that I and my team do, we are helping the planet, we are helping ensure healthier and more sustainable food, we are helping workers that work on these factory farms, we are benefiting the lives of animals. It is, there is, I can't think of a, a more abhorrent industry on the face of the planet than factory farming.

It abuses animals to the tunes of billions of lives that are meaningful, that deserve to have a life worth living, that don't deserve to be abused, that can feel pain and suffer. They are horrific to workers. Just Google Tyson and workers during COVID, where you had managers and people at Tyson that were taking bets on how many people would die from COVID.

They do not care about their workers. Uh, human health. We could do an entire episode on the impact of antibiotics that are fed to farm animals and what it's doing to our ability to fight disease and infection. We're going to get to a place if we continue down this trajectory, not only are we gonna destroy our water and our soil and our planet, we are going to eradicate the ability for us to use antibiotics to fight infections because we are prophylactically giving farm animals... the majority of antibiotics that are prescribed on this planet go to farm animals to keep them healthy or make them grow fast. What do you think that that's doing to our food system? So at the end of the day, there are so many reasons why people should be anti-factory farming. And I think that that's getting to kind of, coming full circle to the conversation we were having in the beginning is that there are different approaches.

I actually am starting to really fundamentally think different about the work that we're doing where, this was a conversation I was having with Alexis Fox, who I've had the pleasure of working with for many, many years, and what she's been talking about and what I agree with is that this no longer needs to be just an animal welfare conversation or a vegan conversation.

This needs to be a coalition of the majority fighting against factory farming. I think that this is actually what is imperative is that we work to end factory farming for all the reasons that we just discussed, and we get out of the echo chamber of just talking about animal welfare. This is a moral imperative and I think that

Mariann Sullivan: is,

Matthew Dominguez: people will join that campaign.

Mariann Sullivan: the greatest sin that, I mean, I'm not religious, but I think the word sin is, is, is useful in the context of factory farming. It is the most extraordinary violation of, of, and, and it's all about, uh, of it's the animals, the planet, human health. What, how unbelievable is it that, that all of these things point to exactly the same solution?

Matthew Dominguez: Yep.

Mariann Sullivan: It's unbelievable that we continue to do this, so why do we? All right... that's my, ask you any more questions. Just, I.

Matthew Dominguez: You can ask as many as you'd like.

Mariann Sullivan: No, no, no. I, we do have to, uh, end this, but, uh, then we'll go to if, if, if you'll stay on for a little bonus episode. I have a few more

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: To ask you, but I have kept you on here for a long time.

I know I have. But just one easy question at, at the end. Why, why? Why people do know about factory farming now, when we both started in this, they kind of didn't,

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: didn't. But you know, the word has gotten out that there's something bad going on out there. Why do people not think they're supposed to, uh, to stop eating animals?

Why do people not stop eating animals? I ask everybody this question. Of course, nobody has the answer 'cause none of us can figure out the answer. Or maybe you do. I

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: But, uh, what's your, what are your thoughts on it? That deep question of people that you know, undoubtedly that you love, that are fine human beings in other ways, these aren't all careless people,

Matthew Dominguez: Hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: but they do not see the solution to this. Um, I don't know whether they think it's a problem, but if they don't think... if they think it's a problem, they don't see the solution connected to their, uh, stopping eating animals

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: in, in your world, you could even say buying extremely high welfare animals if you're going to eat them.

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah. Whether it's,

Mariann Sullivan: Michael Pollen, he talks about, like, he writes all this bullshit about, uh, his, these, these high welfare farms and then admits he eats McDonald's hamburgers sometimes. I mean come on, people.

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah, the disconnect is real. And I've seen that throughout my career where, um,

Mariann Sullivan: It's not that hard.

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting. I mean, and I think you're right. It's not just about people just not consuming animal products or even shifting to higher welfare or just consuming more, more plant-based. I think that there's a couple reasons. I think that you could probably write, I'm sure that there are many books about the cognitive dissonance and psychology around why humans have trouble making significant changes in their life.

I think about it for a couple reasons. Um, I, I, I like to be reflective on the work that I have done in my career, and one of the mistakes that I have, I think, done and that has been harmful, if I'm being fully transparent and mistake, a mistake that I made, is that even in this podcast, we talked about how overwhelmingly destructive factory farming is and the moral imperative that we face.

I think a mistake that we've actually made is we've made it seem so big, so problematic, so scary, so large that the average person... and this happens in democracy as well, how many people have you talked to that's like, I'm not, voting doesn't make a difference, right?

Mariann Sullivan: I don't talk to those people...

Matthew Dominguez: I mean, I, I have a lot of people in my life that, like the last election, that was their, their response is, it doesn't matter, my, my vote doesn't make a difference.

Similar to the environmental around like recycling, people will throw a can into the trash and say, well, that can, doesn't make a difference. Well, maybe you're right that

Mariann Sullivan: They're right.

Matthew Dominguez: One individual, but like, collectively, we all need to be doing this. So I do think that, you know, there, there's an old saying that is, you know, a, a a a, uh, a single death or what is it?

It's a, it's a, you know, a million deaths is a statistic and one death is a tragedy. So at the end of the day, I think that one of the things that we've done is, we've created such a huge, well, we didn't create it, but we haven't done a very good job of explaining that, how like an individual can make decisions and be accepted.

I think that that's another thing is that we've made it really big so people feel like, uh, like it doesn't make a difference, so what the hell's the point? And I have my own thoughts on that and like is the type of person who would respond to that, but I think that that's a fair thing that that has happened.

Mariann Sullivan: I absolutely agree.

Matthew Dominguez: The other component is for, for a very long time, well actually factory farming is a relatively new thing in our, in our society. I mean, it's only over the course of the last 50, 60, 70 years that factory farming has happened. And for the, the vast majority of that time, people were not aware of it because the industry did not, was not transparent.

So people just didn't know what was happening. It's really only over the last decade I think that we've had social media, we've had the ability to spend money to inform people. But over the course of 40 or 50 years, people have become indoctrinated in routine, in societal norms. Uh, I mean, I think about one of the things that was the hardest for me when I first went, you know, decided to eat less animals and move into a plant-based diet.

The thing that came to mind is like Thanksgiving, Christmas, my mom's casserole that she makes on Christmas morning. There were these like fundamental parts of my childhood, of my life, things that felt warm and fuzzy, um, about meals being such a centerpiece and culture with friends and family and holidays.

And what's really, really difficult for human beings is when you learn about this issue, and I still grappled that at, with this, after 15 plus years of not consuming animal products, is that I was a part of it for a very long time. I didn't know. I didn't really understand it. There's a lot of guilt associated with knowing that you contributed to the suffering of thousands and thousands of animals.

So when you're faced with societal pressures, being contributor to it, having societal norms like family holidays and food that are important in your life to your family, in addition to the fact that we've made the issue so big that it doesn't feel like an individual can make a difference, I would actually say it's a miracle that anyone changes their diet and the fact that a lot of people have really go and speak to the testament, the fact that we are on the right side of history.

I just think we're facing an uphill battle because of human psychology. And what our job is, and this is what I would say to anyone working at this is, and what we do at Compassion in World Farming is that it is more, it has never been more important than now for us to meet people where they are at and give them the opportunity to be a part of this collective movement, to move away from a destructive system like factory farming.

And whether it's their willingness to eat a little bit less meat or eat more plant-based food, or vote in favor of a ballot measure, or to call their local company and say, I want you to go cage free, or buy cage free eggs, or whatever the ask is, we applaud people for doing something rather than attacking them for not doing enough, because we can all do more.

We can all be better. And one of the things that my law professor at Lewis and Clark, when I was there studying animal law, I told her, I was like, I'm struggling a lot with, with a lot of these philosophical things. I don't know what to do. She said, Matt, the best thing you can do, and this is something I live to, to this day, is find a level of hypocrisy that you can live with today. You draw that line and then every once in a while you reassess and you figure out where that line is. And hopefully that will push you to do better and better and better. And before you know it, you're gonna be doing a lot.

And so for me, what I just ask of all animal advocates is I know that it's hard. I know that many of us are angry. I know that all of us are tired and we want this to end now, but at the end of the day, this is not going to end overnight. This is gonna be a marathon, not a sprint and what we need to do is we need to be a little bit more willing to meet people where they're currently at and help guide them to a better, more ethical, better diet, whatever that looks like.

And I think collectively, if we take that approach, we're gonna see a lot more progress in the future.

Mariann Sullivan: Wow. That was, that was really, really, really good. And I hate, I mean, I feel like I should cut this off right there 'cause that was such a brilliant way to end, but I just saw this video this morning. It didn't have anything to do with animals, but it was talking about just world bias, which I had never heard about before. One of the things that it makes it difficult for people to change their behavior, is, is this thing called just world bias. That people want to think the world is just, and so if they see something horrible, they either think it's the fault of, of the people... they were talking about humans, the humans it's happening to, or if they can't.

And that would not count with factory farming 'cause nobody thinks it's the animals fault, exactly. But if they can't do any, if they're not given something to do about it, if they, there's nothing they can do about it, they tend to think that this is the way it has to be. And that seemed very, very resonant of factory farming and resonant of the kind of thing that you're talking about.

People have to be given something they can do about it. Uh, and I think once they do, yeah, that, that, um, that level of hypocrisy you're, you're willing to live with does keep expanding or contracting, I guess.

Matthew Dominguez: We can't just burden people with the atrocities that we're talking about

Mariann Sullivan: that tur

Matthew Dominguez: and then, and then, and then walk away from and not give them

Mariann Sullivan: yeah.

Matthew Dominguez: meaningful steps. And I don't think,

Mariann Sullivan: be fair, there are many people in the movement doing this. I mean,

Matthew Dominguez: of course,

Mariann Sullivan: it's not like

Matthew Dominguez: of course.

Mariann Sullivan: inventing it, including you. I, you know,

Matthew Dominguez: And,

Mariann Sullivan: but.

Matthew Dominguez: and people take different approaches and people are receptive to different messaging. I have met people

Mariann Sullivan: Totally.

Matthew Dominguez: have seen, uh, I mean, I have, I've, I've met advocates that saw an undercover investigation of X, Y, and Z and overnight became an activist and they spend their entire life fighting for animals.

I've also been in situations where, you know, there have been people in my life that have been educated over years and years and years of content and videos and conversations and meaningful heart to hearts, and still have not made meaningful change in their life. I think everyone's different to some degree of what's gonna work, but I also do fundamentally believe,

Mariann Sullivan: Different too in how willing they are to be different.

Matthew Dominguez: yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: Like how willing they 'cause eating differently than other people is a very big, it's not just that you love the turkey at Thanksgiving or whatever. It's that you wanna be part of that group and

Matthew Dominguez: that's right.

Mariann Sullivan: Is part of that group and, and saying no is, is, it's inevitably seen as judgmental. Because you know what? It is.

There's no way around it.

Matthew Dominguez: Yeah, I think, I think that, I think that you're right. But I think in a time like now with the, with the political atmosphere that we're facing and just the, the, the fear that is happening in this world, there is no time that I think is more important to lower the temperature of just aggression and making it difficult for people to participate in this movement.

And I think that what I would like to see is this no longer be a movement about what you eat, um, or animals in general. I want this to be a movement of anti-factory farming, because even if animals are not your prime mover, there are a dozen reasons why we need to move away from the current food system and we need to end factory farming.

And I would happily fight side by side for the rest of my career by someone who is as passionate to end factory farming because of environmental reasons then someone who is doing it for food safety reasons, or doing it for animal because at the end of the day, the end goal is the same that we've removed, the largest causing of suffering on this planet.

So that is where I think that many of us advocates could do a little bit better job. And I think that I am guilty of this myself, is that again, we have to sometimes just sit with the fact that there are tactics and things that we can do that may not align with our philosophical beliefs or what we want to see in the world, but they are effective and they are gonna move the needle.

And ultimately we need to do what's in the best interest of animals, and that may not always make us feel better.

Mariann Sullivan: I think if you're a good, smart activist too, I think that so many people in the movement have, have done this, including the people with your organization and others like it have have found ways to thread that needle. Like

Matthew Dominguez: Of course,

Mariann Sullivan: have to betray your moral principles while advocating for something that is short of perfect because it's better. Uh, and I think that the movement has gotten so much better at doing that. And I totally agree that I, I mean, I think like would like to think of myself in two movements, both the anti factory farming movement and the animal movement because there's many other issues about animals that I care about, uh,

Matthew Dominguez: course

Mariann Sullivan: animals, but, but they don't, you don't have to give up one to be the other because they're both headed in the same direction,

Matthew Dominguez: I could not, I could not agree more with you.

Mariann Sullivan: some powerful work, really starting to do some powerful work.

Matthew Dominguez: I couldn't agree more.

Mariann Sullivan: kept you a ridiculous amount of time,

Matthew Dominguez: I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Now this has, this has been really wonderful and I think that this is, I, I honestly believe that this is how... when you talk about the movement has, I think, gotten better, and I think it's because there's been more dialogue between organizations and people.

And there are fundamentally things that I have probably said in this interview that there are people that are going to disagree with. There are things that I probably in five years will look back and be like, I don't agree with that anymore. But at the end of the day, it really is about having a conversation.

It is about meeting each other where we're at. It's about informing each other. There are people on different ends of the spectrum. There are some animal rights activists and abolitionists that have informed my philosophical beliefs during my career, people like Steve Wise and others. And then there's people that are, uh, further on this other end that have informed my decisions as well.

And so at the end of the day, what I want is collectively for more conversations that happen. Respectful disagreement. I want folks to be able to feel safe to say, I disagree with you, and here's why. But then also open up yourself to realize that you also might be wrong and I might be wrong. And we need to allow for dissent.

We need to allow for new ideas. We need to allow for us to be kind to ourself to realize that we're all doing the best that we can, and we're all following the path that we believe is what is gonna bring about the world that we want to see. Which is a, which is that where farm animals don't suffer. And we have so much more in common with each other than we have apart from each other.

So I just, I, I, I agree with you that we are in a much better place in this movement. And I think it's because there's been a lot more willingness to come and meet each other where we're at instead of in fighting. Um, and that brings me a lot of hope because collectively we can't do this alone. This is gonna be a big fight.

It needs a lot of people. Um, and I think our, our movement is broadened.

Mariann Sullivan: We're trying to change the way the entire world eats. It's a big job. We can

Matthew Dominguez: And we,

Mariann Sullivan: as many ideas as we can get.

Matthew Dominguez: We need to be kind to ourselves because the tasks that we have signed ourselves up for is massive.

Mariann Sullivan: It is big and nobody likes us. Well,

Matthew Dominguez: told, I, I was, I was talking with a good friend of mine who runs another organization. Um, and we, he and I have worked on campaigns. We've ran, we've ran ballot measures, we've worked on corporate campaigns and legislative campaigns. And we were, we were having, it was actually, it was on Thanksgiving.

We were having Chinese food 'cause we're working on a campaign right now and we were at a Chinese restaurant and, you know, we're, we're sitting there talking, not with our families because for us, working on the campaign was the most important thing for us to be doing with our time. And we were sitting there talking about the progress that we've made.

Granted, many of us would look at the progress we made and I am not happy with where we're at. I wish we were further.

Mariann Sullivan: the movement might be in great shape, but the animals are still in very bad

Matthew Dominguez: But to be honest, if you think about, when you truly think about, our opposition and the people that we are fighting against, the sheer number of people, the societal norms, the money, the infrastructure, the legal protections, the laws, the subsidies, when you look at the totality of the food system and how broken it is, but also how much support and pillars that are propping this up, the mere fact that a couple hundred people in the United States with a couple million dollars have been able to make the impact that we have had is nothing short of a miracle.

We should all be very, very proud of the progress that we've made. We should all be... we, we should all just be celebrating the fact that, one, that people are fighting, that we are having victories, that we are making progress. And to not feel like that it's not for nothing. I mean, we have tra, we have, we have impacted the lives of billions of animals If we were not doing this work, and I mean collectively, all of us, even those of us that may not agree on the tactics, we have fundamentally changed the lives of billions of animals.

And that is something we should all be very proud of. Now I wanna see more, and I think that there will be more progress in 2026 and beyond, but we should also be reflective. And I think given the fact that we're coming to the end of 2025, which has been a very difficult year, and I think many of us kind of wanna leave it in the past,

Mariann Sullivan: right in the beginning of 2026.

Matthew Dominguez: I think we should walk into 2026 with optimism, with hope, because at the end of the day, and this is something I've quoted many times, you know, it's been said that the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice. And I fundamentally believe that that's true, but it requires a bender. And we are the bender.

We are the ones that need to jump up, we grab the arc, and we pull it in the direction of justice and hope, and that's our responsibility. And I think that we're gonna get there. I, I fundamentally believe that factory farming will be a failed experiment. There will be a day it comes to an end, and our job is just to bring that end sooner rather than later.

Because every day that we end factory farming sooner will be the lives of billions of animals that are spared. And I can't think of a more important thing to work on with my life and the breaths and the resources that I have than to spend my time fighting for chickens and pigs and cows and other farm animals that are abused.

And it really truly is an honor to do this work and fight beside many, many people that that put their life into this and people like you that spread this information and let people at least hear what's going on so that they can make a choice. So I am optimistic in 2026. It is gonna be a historic year.

I think we're gonna do phenomenal things and ultimately we're gonna win. We have justice on our side.

Mariann Sullivan: We do have justice on our side. We have everything on our side. So, uh, that was very inspiring. I'm going to, um. I'm, I'm not going to keep going because I couldn't, I couldn't end, do an ending better than that. Thank you so much to everyone out there for tuning in. I'm sure you enjoyed this as much as I did, and please remember to subscribe on your favorite pod catcher or on YouTube and you can donate and become a flock member, in which case you would be able to receive the bonus content, which I'm gonna get into with Matt right now 'cause apparently we're gonna talk all day and that would be at ourhenhouse.org/support.