The Hen Report: “Strange Bedfellows” | Navigating Alliances in Animal Rights Advocacy

In this thought-provoking episode of The Hen Report, Mariann Sullivan is joined by Cornell Law professor and animal advocate Michael Dorf to explore the complex phenomenon of “strange bedfellows” in the animal rights movement. They examine how activists navigate situations where they find themselves aligned with unexpected allies on animal issues, while potentially disagreeing on other social and political matters.

This episode explores:

• The Trump administration’s surprising move to phase out government funding for animal testing, led by RFK Jr.
• How animal advocates can strategically respond when political figures they otherwise oppose champion animal causes
• The controversy surrounding FarmKind’s “Forget Veganuary” campaign and its problematic offsetting approach
• The evolution of veganism over the past two decades and its increasing mainstream recognition
• The challenges of coalition-building while maintaining core animal rights principles

RESOURCES

• • • • Doctors Group Applauds Commitment by RFK Jr. to Replacing Animal Experiments, Proposes Five Priorities for 2026
      • U.S. Military Ends Practice of Shooting Live Animals to Train Medics to Treat Battlefield Wounds
      • Veganuary champion quits to run meat-eating campaign
      • Former Veganuary champion quits to run meat-eating campaign – saying vegan dogma is ‘damaging’ to goal of reducing animal suffering
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    INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

    Mariann Sullivan: Welcome to The Hen Report. This is Mariann Sullivan. Jasmin won't be with us this week.

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    She's a bit under the weather, but she's doing great. She's fine. Uh, so not to worry and she'll be back soon, but I am so excited that, uh, we're going to be joined once again by our regular wingman, Michael Dorf. Who is of course, a professor at Cornell Law School and is also a very prestigious constitutional law scholar, but most importantly is a passionate vegan and animal advocate.

    And welcome back, Michael.

    Michael Dorf: Thanks so much. This is a great honor. It's, uh, very big shoes I'm trying to fill in for, uh, with Jasmin, but I'll do my best.

    Mariann Sullivan: I, I, I have a lot of confidence, but I agree. It's a stretch. It's a stretch. Um, and happy birthday!

    Michael Dorf: Thank you very much. Yeah. We're recording this on my actual birthday. Uh, by the time you're listening to it, I will be a day older or so, but uh, yeah, it's very exciting. Today's my birthday.

    Mariann Sullivan: What a wonderful way to celebrate it by coming onto the Our Hen House podcast.

    Michael Dorf: No, it's a, it's a promotion. I mean, I guess I'm now like, you know, uh, whatever you, you are when you even more than a wing, uh, for today.

    Mariann Sullivan: I am a little worried about that Wingman designation. 'cause I noticed that now it's constantly used to describe the relationship between Epstein and Trump. So I don't want it to turn into an insult.

    Michael Dorf: No, I, I get that.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

    Michael Dorf: will, uh, I, I, I didn't take it that way.

    Mariann Sullivan: All right.

    Michael Dorf: For my birthday, of course, um, I have to do something. So my, uh, my daughter Amelia, uh, who I think was on the show as like a very, very little kid. Um,

    Mariann Sullivan: You are right. You're absolutely right.

    Michael Dorf: She's a, she's a home still for break from, uh, college.

    She's a senior, uh, at Smith.

    Mariann Sullivan: She's a senior. Holy moly.

    Michael Dorf: Yeah. But she's, uh, she's making me vegan shakshouka. Uh, and she, uh, she baked bagels yesterday, so I'm gonna have one of the bagels with that. I've already, I've already had three of the bagels.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. I.

    Michael Dorf: That's pretty awesome.

    Mariann Sullivan: I, I mean, having a bagel baker in, in the house would be, uh, would be hard for me. I might have eaten more than three. I love a bagel and I...

    Michael Dorf: She's an excellent cook generally, so it's pretty fun having her home.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yes. No, I've heard of her cooking, her legendary cooking before and she inherits it, no doubt, from both of her parents. And uh, and I'm just curious, I saw your post actually on social media about the bagels, and you said they were as good as H and H, which if you're from New York City, that's like the highest compliment that can be given to a bagel, and H and H doesn't exist anymore.

    Michael Dorf: Right. There is something called H and H now it's an offshoot, but the original, uh, store on Broadway and 80th Street has been gone for over a decade, unfortunately.

    Mariann Sullivan: And, uh, the bagels were legendary. And New Yorkers tend, whether they're Jewish or not, tend to, uh, insist that, that they're the only people who understand the difference between a bagel and a roll. And it, they're in other places, you get a roll and it's like any other roll. And it rolls are delicious, but it ain't a bagel 'cause a bagel, uh, the way I always put it, a bagel kind of bites back, uh, or at least resists.

    Puts up, puts up a good fight. Uh, so how, yeah, are her bagels really that good?

    Michael Dorf: Uh, yeah, they're, um, you know, I might, uh, she told me I could post the recipe. It's not her original recipe. Uh, it did take her a long time. It involved making the dough a day ahead of time

    Mariann Sullivan: It's complicated. I know

    Michael Dorf: in the refrigerator. So yeah, it

    Mariann Sullivan: You have to boil them, right?

    Michael Dorf: Yeah. Yeah. You boil them then you bake

    Mariann Sullivan: That's key.

    Michael Dorf: Yeah.

    Mariann Sullivan: Boiling. Yeah. Yeah. No, when you get a bagel, that's just like a roll, you know, a nice roll. But, uh, it, it hasn't been boiled. I mean, that's, that's really central to the process.

    Michael Dorf: Right. And of course for, uh, our listeners, it's important to note that most bagels you get at a bagel bakery are vegan unless it's, you know, a with like cheese on top, but often supermarket bagels are not because they've got a gazillion ingredients and they put, you know, some sort of dairy or egg derivative in them.

    Mariann Sullivan: That's really a good point. I'm not sure I really knew that. I don't buy a lot of bagels in the supermarket, so it's never been a concern, but I, I do, unless it's called an egg bagel, I usually assume that it's vegan. So that's good to know. Very useful information already. And perhaps we'll go on to, uh...

    So, uh, there are a few things that we talked about that we wanted to talk about, and one of the, one of them is the thing I call the strange bedfellows discussion. And this has been coming up in a couple of different ways, uh, in recent days. Can you explain, uh, well explain what I mean if you are able? If you get it wrong, I'll correct you and, uh, and, and why there are a couple of stories right now that are really bringing up this really what is kind of a quandary for vegans or vegan advocates.

    Michael Dorf: So, um, the notion of strange bad fellows, of course, is not just about veganism. It's with respect to any social or political movement. Sometimes you find yourself aligned on a particular issue with people or organizations that, uh, often are opposed to your, uh, your goals. Um, so, and, and that's called just strange bedfellows, uh.

    Here, uh, for us, um, the, the stories involve. Entities that we think, uh, like the Trump administration are, are not generally, uh, advancing the cause of justice, uh, but doing things that, um, in this case, and we, there's no need to be coy about it, it's the HHS announcement by, uh, Robert F Kennedy Jr. That they're going to phase out, uh, government funding of, uh, animal testing, right?

    They're doing things that, you know, we applaud and have worked for. And um...

    Mariann Sullivan: And which we kind of never thought was gonna happen. It's unbelievable. Unbelievable news.

    Michael Dorf: Right. And of course, because so much of the medical research and other research that's done on animals is federally funded, the elimination of federal funding for animal research is, it's not entirely eliminating animal research in the United States, but it goes a long way towards that goal. Um, and so, yeah, so that's a, that's a great development. Uh, but, you know, you, you wanna be careful not to praise the people doing it too much because they're also doing a bunch of, uh, terrible things. Uh, and so that's sort of the quandary, I think.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, and, and I mean, when we were talking about whether we would talk about this, I think I... it occurred to me that this is kind, this hasn't happened that much in the animal movement. I'm sure there have been situations before, but it's usually that nobody agrees with us about anything. So we don't have this quandary of like what to do when they agree with us about something, like we shouldn't test on animals anymore, but they have other bad... things that we don't agree with. Uh, I won't characterize them as good or bad. And so it's kind of, I would say this is a new step in the movement when particularly there, there have been more, there has been more indication on the right and even on the Trump right, which is basically the right these days, of being interested in the animal rights issue.

    I mean, there was the, the squirrel issue. Um, you know, remember, uh, remember the squirrel who was killed?

    Michael Dorf: Yeah of course, Peanut the squirrel.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I mean, so this is something I think that we have to think about our strategies with the other incident that you brought up, which I had wanted to talk about and I didn't know how to talk about it, so I'm glad that you did, was the death of Brigitte Bardot.

    Michael Dorf: Yeah, so, um, that that poses the, a similar issue because Brigitte Bardot, as I'm sure our listeners know, uh, after, uh, retiring relatively early from acting, uh, became an animal welfare, uh, activist. She was not a vegan, she was not in favor of animal rights as I would define it, but she did a lot of good.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, she did a lot of good.

    Michael Dorf: She created a foundation that, that, um, you know, was effective across a range of, of issues. Uh, but, uh, she was also, um, a, uh, xenophobic, uh, a nativist Islamophobic, uh, homophobic, and quite outspoken in various of those views, uh, in ways, you know, make it such that one doesn't want to praise her overall.

    Uh, but you still want to acknowledge the work that she did. I mean, if I can draw an analogy, I think it's a little bit like, um, the situation we faced for anybody in the relatively distant past who did things that we then subsequently built upon, but was either involved in some very great evils, I think about, you know, uh, Thomas Jefferson pens the Declaration of Independence.

    Mariann Sullivan: Thomas Jefferson is, is kind of the poster child for this whole problem.

    Michael Dorf: Right, right. But he's an enslaver.

    Um, and so you don't want to in any way excuse that or say it's just a product of his times because there were, were of course people who recognized, um, the evil of slavery at the time, not least the people who were themselves enslaved. Uh, but uh, I think you can have some nuance about it and nonetheless say that the good they did was good. Um, and, uh, whether that, you know, you might not give them an award for that, uh, posthumously or otherwise, but I don't think you have to therefore say that it's tainted or you wanna minimize it in some way.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, and I, I mean, I think we're coming out of a period, you may or may not agree, the last decade where we, the world in general, or at least political factions, and particularly on the left, though not actually, that's probably not true, probably just in the US kind of got very, like you have to agree with everybody about everything or you don't agree with them at all.

    Like it got very uh... lost the ability to be nuanced. Whereas everybody knows that different people have different opinions about different things and you can agree with them about, I mean this is just a fact of human nature... like, if you've lived in the world, this is how it is. But the challenge I guess, is trying to keep your, always the challenge with animals, your communication very nuanced and not, not, uh... you know, make clear that you don't agree with this person about everything, but you're happy to agree with them about this. I mean, that's, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that as long as you make it clear. But I don't think, I think we've, to some extent, not just the animal movement, but a lot of people kind of lost that ability. Like that, that you had to, you've spoken about this before in talking about intersectionality.

    Not that there's anything wrong with that, but you, it can, it can get very much like this idea that you have to agree with somebody about everything, like every single point of view they have means whether they're a good person or a bad person. And you could only agree with good people. Like it, it just got very lumped in all together.

    Whereas I think it's absolutely crucial for people who care about animals to recognize there are people all over the lot on different issues. Um, who, who care about animals, I mean. That's just a fact. We need those people. And I think there are a way, sorry, just let me finish this thought, or I'll forget it.

    It's also a way to challenge, uh, people that you agree with on other issues who maybe don't get it about animals and saying, you know, why, why are these people right about this? And you haven't given this issue any serious thought? It's useful.

    Michael Dorf: I think that's fundamentally right. I, I would, uh, I might distinguish a little bit between people who express views with which one disagrees and people who are actually doing bad things, in addition. Right? That is, um, it, absolutely agree that you have to form coalitions with people who disagree with you. Um, I think you can even, uh, I could even say that you have to sometimes swallow hard and form coalitions with people who are doing things that you don't like, at least if they're sort of perpendicular to what you're trying to accomplish. There is, there is, um, of course there's the, you know, the risk of being too pure, much of a purist and insisting on down the line agreement is you don't have any allies at all. So that's, and that's especially a problem for a small movement.

    Mariann Sullivan: 'Cause we don't have a whole lot anyway, so.

    Michael Dorf: Right. But, but you know, there, the, the one thing I thought about that, that was a little bit of a risk in the, uh, the animal testing context is, I read some of the stories about the, uh, the decision and there's something of a worry about guilt by association, right? So, um, if RFK Junior is the one who's pushing the elimination of animal testing, some risk that his, for lack of a better term, uh, general crankiness, uh, by which I don't mean he's like, you know, his mood.

    I mean, he's a crank.

    Right? That, that the, uh, you know, his, his tendency to promote pseudoscience and to, you know, say all sorts of things are...

    Mariann Sullivan: Vaccines.

    Michael Dorf: Yeah.

    Mariann Sullivan: Need we say anymore?

    Michael Dorf: Right. Uh, yeah. So that there's a risk that that comes to, uh, result in guilt by association for the elimination of animal testing, right?

    Because, uh, even in some of the articles I read about this, there are lots of mainstream scientists quoted as saying things like, Oh, you know, if it were not for animal testing, we wouldn't have this, that, or the other drug. Some of which might be true.

    Mariann Sullivan: Oh, absolutely.

    Michael Dorf: Right, although as you've pointed out on the show, right, if we hadn't had animal testing, you know, 30 years ago when some important breakthrough was made, uh, we might have had some other way of testing it, and there are other breakthroughs and so forth. Uh, but you know, if, if the person, a person who's not already, um, steeped in our movement, but is queasy about animal testing reads a news story in which they see on the one side RFK Junior and on the other side, these mainstream doctors and medical researchers saying, oh no, we can't afford to do this. They're, I think, likely to think, oh, well, this is just RFK being a nut again, as opposed to you know, promoted by, uh, PCRM or Aisha Aktar, or somebody who's actually, you know, who actually knows what they're talking about.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I absolutely, I mean, there are, there are serious challenges here and, uh, serious communication challenges, serious questions about how to use these, these kind of things. One of the things I think that is important, and I actually talked about this, my interview with Wayne Hsiung goes up on Friday, but I talked to him briefly about it 'cause I already recorded that interview.

    Is that, is that, uh, it, this having been said, um, by, uh, RFK Junior, it is very important that animal groups work on it quickly, um, and get something in place, uh, and, and turn it into some kind of reality. And like PCRM is all over that, uh, they're really making some proposals, very reasonable proposals, um, ending, closing the primate centers is one of them, which would be huge.

    And that could be, and turning them into sanctuary. Don't you just love that suggestion. That is actually something they could do, you know, they wouldn't need, probably wouldn't need any kind of congressional approval or anything. Not that they get for congressional approval when they need it. So, so, but, um, yeah, but, and then, uh, just the other answer is just to always be really careful with your communication. It's hard.

    It's hard to hit, you know, strike and, you know, make clear to people you agree with them about some things and don't agree with them about others. It's, it's tough, but that's the burden. We are, we are saddled with, oh, is saddled a bad? Uh, that might be a bad word to use.

    Michael Dorf: There's probably a more vegan friendly metaphor. Our burden to bear...

    Mariann Sullivan: I just wanted to mention too, when we first started talking about this, you didn't mention, but there was another, another progressive move by the administration in the National Defense Authorization Act. Uh,

    Michael Dorf: This is about the using animals as a target for target shooting.

    Yeah.

    Mariann Sullivan: That's been signed into law. Yeah.

    Michael Dorf: Yeah.

    Mariann Sullivan: So

    Michael Dorf: I mean, that's not just the administration, that's congress.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

    Michael Dorf: So, uh, that that's pretty important.

    Mariann Sullivan: Really good to see. Yeah, like, well, I just feel in general, there are a lot, I mean, now I'm gonna go off into total, uh, my opinions about the world kind of stuff. But, uh, there are a lot of people I think, scrambling to get stuff done on until before the midterms. Um, thinking that after then, you know, they're not gonna have the ability.

    And, you know, I'm, I'm glad to now join the group of people that let's get some stuff done before the midterms.

    Michael Dorf: Uh, yeah, sure. Um, the, right, it's weird in this situation to think that, you know, we, this is something we need to get done before the midterms, before RFK Junior gets reigned in.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

    Michael Dorf: Uh,

    Mariann Sullivan: I mean, I think a lot of people, you know, I think that's has to do with why we like went into Venezuela so quickly that people are, are scrambling to get their favorite projects done. That's my opinion. Um, and because, you know, not that... who knows what'll happen at the midterms. I mean, hopefully we'll have fair elections.

    We don't actually know that, but assuming we do, well, you know, there's gonna be a lot of brakes put on. And, um, so, so now that there's something the Trump administration is doing that, you know, we're all, we're all over. And, you know, once you do it, it's hard to undo it as so many of the things that they're doing, you could say that about.

    But once you close those primate facilities and make them into sanctuaries. Then do you have to pass a law and turn like sanctuaried animals into experiments? You know, that is like, it's a lot harder to go back. In most of those situations, we're not pleased about that, but in this one we could be.

    Michael Dorf: That's right. In general, the approach has been that they do stuff and then the burden to undo it is harder. And generally we don't like that, but here maybe we do. Did we wanna talk...

    Mariann Sullivan: Strange bedfellows.

    Michael Dorf: Yeah. Did we wanna talk about the, the FarmKind issue, or no?

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I know. I'm going on and on and we don't have time all the time in the world. It's your birthday and you other things to do, but I do wanna talk about Farm Kind and, uh, people have probably heard about this controversy, or a lot of people probably have. And I did, I did give you a caveat.

    I mean, I was one who suggested talking about it, so it wasn't like you were pushing me, but Our Hen House has always taken the position that we don't bring on people... not that we're bringing you on. I mean, I, I'm the one who started the conversation, but we don't, we don't use the podcast to criticize other people in the movement.

    There's nothing wrong with doing that. It's fine. Uh, it's just not our shtick, um, or our, our, the, the work that we do because you really, at the, this hasn't become an issue much in recent days, but in the beginning, that was a lot of what was going on, and we wanted to do something different. And so this is in that, um, in that ilk, uh, because, but it's just such a big, I think this, this issue, it became, it blew up to be so big within the vegan movement and also it's just so interesting and really needs unpacking.

    So I did ask you to come on and talk about it. I am happy to approach it, you can approach it however you want. I'm happy to approach it thinking that the intent on the behalf of Farm Kind is completely benign. They're trying to do their best to help animals. I mean, if people think that they have taken the wrong route, which, you know, I kind of do, that's one thing.

    But you know, if you think something... a lot of people, you know, on social media just think they're monsters. But, um, you know, I'm not gonna think that. I think they, they, they thought this was a good idea. Alright, with that introduction, can, can you can... for those people who aren't really familiar with the controversy, can you tell 'em what Farm Kind is and what they did that kind of brought them into the light?

    Michael Dorf: So Farm Kind is an organization that, uh, essentially directs, uh, donations to other animal, uh, welfare, animal rights organizations. And they've launched a campaign, the goal of which is to persuade people, um, who are consuming animal products to, um, essentially buy offsets. So it's similar to offsets in other contexts, right?

    So if you're worried about your impact, uh, on the environment from, uh, flying on an airplane, you can purchase an offset and then some third party will, you know, plant a bunch of trees. Um, I, I should say that in the environmental or carbon context, um, offsets are controversial for two main reasons. One is that it's not clear that they actually do what they, they promise. That is, I, I don't mean that they don't, that they just take your money and do nothing. But what I mean is that it's not clear that planting the trees, uh, even if they're doing it, is actually sinking carbon equivalent to what the airplane is creating, uh, in proportion to your flight, uh, because there's no real monitoring of that. So that's one concern.

    And then the other concern is, you know, it's been compared to papal indulgences of the Middle Ages, Whereby, you know, you do something bad and then you buy your way out of it. And if, you know, you think that that's not the way morality works, right? You wouldn't say, well, you know, I, I murdered three people, but I also, you know, gave a bunch of money to organizations that, uh, saved five lives in the developing world, so on net, I've, I've done good, right? You, you might think that this is problematic.

    So anyway, so there's, there's a question about offsetting in the first place. But, but I, I, I think I share your general sense that I wouldn't criticize Farm Kind for promoting offsets if all that Farm Kind were doing was saying to people who are going to be consuming animal products anyway, hey, you know, you're doing this thing that's causing harm to animals, it's causing environmental harm. How about you try to mitigate that by buying these offsets and that'll give money to animal rights and animal welfare organizations that are going to do some good for animals?

    Mariann Sullivan: I mean, even there, I, I think a discussion is warranted. Uh, you know,

    Michael Dorf: I agree.

    Mariann Sullivan: I'm not clear that that's a great idea, but, but that's not, it went far beyond that.

    Michael Dorf: I. I, I think, I think if you, if, if you were per, you know, so if you think about it as an individual conversation in which, you know, you had, you were talking to somebody who was sincerely concerned and you, your first pitch was, well, you should go vegan and here are all...and they say, well, I'm, I'm just not gonna do that.

    You might include this as one of your backup strategies. And I think that would be, um, you know, I'm not sure I would do it, but I, I have, I wouldn't criticize somebody who took that approach.

    Mariann Sullivan: Right, and and I, I mean, can I just add something to that? Is because I think also you might have it in your mind, and maybe they have it in their mind that it is a way to get them thinking about the issue that might actually encourage them to do more than just making that donation. I'm not sure that's true, but, but it could be a strategy to try to get beyond that resistance when you suggest to somebody that they change what they're going to eat.

    Michael Dorf: Right. So, uh, so it, but what, what created the controversy was Farm Kind was promoting this offset strategy as a superior alternative to Veganuary, and generally therefore to going vegan, right? The, I, they actually had a com, uh, competitive eaters, um, that they were sponsoring to, you know, who were going to offset it.

    And so the idea was, Hey, look, if you go vegan, you're gonna, um, you're gonna be denying yourself all these great foods you like. It's gonna be difficult. You're gonna be a pain in the butt to your friends at restaurants and at holidays. Just eat whatever the heck you want and give us a bunch of money. Uh, that's much better.

    And so there, you know, uh, maybe this warrants an exception to the general practice of not criticizing other people's activism FOR people who are criticizing other people's activism. Right.

    Mariann Sullivan: Good point.

    Michael Dorf: So, uh, you know, so, so I, I shared, I mean, I didn't join the, uh, the online in, in, in, in saying anything about this, but I shared the view of those people, uh, concerned about this online, uh, that this was problematic.

    Uh, and it's, in my view, it's problematic, uh, for two reasons, right? One is that there's, there's no reason why you couldn't be vegan and also give money to, uh, animal welfare

    Mariann Sullivan: No inconsistency there at all.

    Michael Dorf: Right. So, so there's, so even if your goal is just to raise lots of money, you don't need to say that other thing. Um, and then the second reason is like, I think this is really destructive. Um, especially because, you know, even, even if you, if you're thinking about this from an effective altruism or effective activism perspective, right, we know that a lot of the positive change that has come in the last few years has been from people who are reducing their animal consumption. And so by, um, by telling people not just don't observe Veganuary, but eat whatever you want, uh, and what they want are animal products, you're actually undermining, not just veganism, but you know, these other sort of partial approaches. Uh, and, and, and so in a way the, the real problem I think with this Farm Kind approach is that it does exactly the thing that you are trying to avoid in not wanting to criticize people's activism, which is to say, we have the answer and is the one thing you should do.

    Whereas, you know, as I think I, you, you say regularly on, on this and the related, Our Hen House universe of podcasts, um, right.

    Mariann Sullivan: It's three.

    Michael Dorf: We don't know what works. So let's, let's try everything.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I, that's very well said. And I think it's particularly ironic that they chose Veganuary of all things to, to make the bad guy here, um, which is making the wrong ask. Because Veganuary doesn't really ask people to go vegan mean, they're not. They're not hardcore. They approach it in a very kind of gentle way.

    Try it out for a month and then, you know, maybe you'll wanna stick with it, you know? And may, um, I don't know whether they specifically say it, but inherent in that, is that, well, maybe you won't stick with it, but maybe you'll cut that. You know, it's, it's a gentle approach. It's not really a hardcore approach.

    It would make more sense if, uh, if, um, you know, they were, they were going, it was a vegan or die kind of campaign and, um. I also, alright, this is getting a little further afield, but you know, the whole approach of, of the idea that we can end the suffering on factory farms by fixing factory farms and eating the same amount or even more, um, of meat is... that's just, that's not right.

    I mean, quantity is a problem and price is a problem, and we cannot fix factory farming. I mean, we can fix some of the worst abuses and stay within the, the, the price range that we are at now, but we can't fix factory farming. We can't make these animals' lives okay. Uh, you know that so, so that whole theory that, that it's possible either on an individual basis or on a global basis to eat the same amount of meat and end factory farming that, that, no, that's, that's a lie.

    That's really not true. I will say, um, I looked this morning for their website 'cause they had a website for this campaign, which was called Forget Veganuary, and it's down. So maybe, maybe they rethought.

    Michael Dorf: So the uh, social media mob was successful.

    Mariann Sullivan: I think so, yeah. There were two articles in mainstream, um, UK publications, The Independent and, um, The Daily Mail, um, because they were focusing on the fact that, uh, this woman who used to work at, at Veganuary was now working on this campaign.

    So I don't know what was going on there, but, uh, so the, the moment on this may have passed, but it was certainly very thought provoking.

    Michael Dorf: Yeah, no, that's right. Um, and you know, again, I, uh, I think this relates to the, the stories we began with right about, uh, strange bedfellows. Um, right? This is not a case of strange bedfellows. These are people who do care about the same things we care about. I mean, we don't, we don't know what their views are on sort of collateral issues, but that's not really what, what they're focusing on. But again, it's the question of, um, with whom do you make common cause? And I feel like I'm happy to make common cause with people that, you know, take different views on different issues, but it's a little difficult if they're directly undermining what I think of as, uh, my core commitment, which is to veganism for, you know, the, the animals principally, but also for the environment and then for health reasons.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. And, um, yeah, glad, I'm glad you made that comparison 'cause in my notes, uh, when, when I said the, when I started the notes on the pharm kind controversy, I said in my notes, this seems related in some way to the first issue, but I'm not sure how. So thank you for explaining that to me. Like how these two things, because it did fee, it feels related and you've exactly pinned down why, why these, these actually are kind of related.

    Uh, and, and both have, um, a lot to do with just the care we take in communicating what we want and what, what we think people should do. So, uh, that's all I have for this week. Do you have anything to add?

    Michael Dorf: Yeah, I would just say, so I was just thinking about, uh, my birthday, so this is this... not on my birthday, but later in this year will be my 20th anniversary of becoming vegan. Um,

    Mariann Sullivan: Mazel tov!

    Michael Dorf: Yes, thank you. Uh, I don't, I'm not planning a big party. I don't actually remember what the exact date was because at the time it didn't occur to me to make a note of it.

    Mariann Sullivan: Right. I'm the same.

    Michael Dorf: Yeah. Uh, but, you know, I was reflecting a little bit on how things have changed during just the time that I've been vegan, which is, you know, less time than you, you have. Uh, and, um, uh, this is sort of in relation to the, your first story on Rising Anxieties this week, right, which is that yeah, the movement sort of hit a peak a few years ago, and we seem to have come down a little bit from that. Uh, but I do think that, um, we're just much farther along than we were 20 years ago.

    Mariann Sullivan: Oh so much.

    Michael Dorf: When I started in this. I mean, just to give you a funny example, um, my father, uh, who was not vegan, um, but um, for years would pronounce the word vegan. Um, and eventually, uh, he, he died in 2020, but, but, uh, eventually before that he, he, he came around to saying vegan.

    Mariann Sullivan: Progress!

    Michael Dorf: Well, but, uh, uh, you know what? He was very supportive, uh, only ate vegan with me. Um, but he, uh, I think it was just an unfamiliar word to him years ago, uh, when I started doing this. And now it's, it's much more routine.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I, I mean I, it's a very different, uh, landscape out there. Unfortunately, it hasn't meant an enormous amount of progress for animals 'cause the numbers are so psychotic.

    Michael Dorf: That's right.

    Mariann Sullivan: But, uh, but it's very different. Um, and, you know, if you're lucky enough to have been there, and I, you know, I was and you were, uh, you, you, you really do see the difference.

    I mean, the, and we have to take into account as Jessica Scott-Reid did in that article, which was great. The industry, which is huge, has fought back tooth and nail. I mean, as I say, every week on Rising Anxieties, you know, they're worried about something. And they're worried about us.

    Michael Dorf: Uh, well, let's keep him worried.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, let's, let's make 'em, I'm, I'm gonna have something delicious for lunch just to worry them. Thank you so much for joining us today, Michael. And, um.

    Michael Dorf: My pleasure. It was a great honor.

    Mariann Sullivan: Thank you. And for everybody out there, we're back to our regular schedule. We, we made a few changes for the holidays, but you know, the holidays are over.

    Um, and just a reminder, Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays. The Hen Report, this, on Thursdays and the long form interview on Fridays. This week's interview, as I mentioned, will be a catch up with Wayne Hsiung and his study in seminary, which has gotten interrupted for pretty dramatic reasons and how it relates to some new ideas he has on how to make progress for animals, which I would say he's thinking through some things.

    So it was a fascinating conversation. And then, um, my bonus for Flock members, um, with a little extended conversation with Wayne comes out on Monday. Don't forget, we're a podcast and we're on YouTube. Please subscribe and hit like wherever you listen. I can't tell you how much that helps us.

    And thanks for tuning in. Subscribe on your favorite pod catcher, and you can donate and become a flock member at ourhenhouse.org/support. Thanks so much for being here.

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