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App not listed? Try this RSS linkIn this thought-provoking episode of The Hen Report, Jasmin Singer and Mariann Sullivan welcome Harvard Law student Akber Khan to discuss the complex intersections of animal rights activism with the unfolding political crisis in America. As political tensions heighten in the US and globally, they explore how animal advocates can effectively position their work within anti-fascist frameworks while navigating challenging conversations about oppression, moral consideration, and strategic activism.
This episode explores:
- Intersectionality in activism: How animal rights connects fundamentally to other social justice movements through shared mechanisms of oppression
- Legal approaches to animal advocacy: Akber’s experience at Legal Impact for Chickens and the strategy of making animal cruelty a financial liability
- Building bridges across ideological divides: The potential of religious frameworks and conservative outreach in expanding the animal rights movement
- Strategic activism vs. vocal protest: The value of “infiltrating spaces” where animal advocates can influence policy from within
- Finding hope in difficult times: How to maintain optimism and momentum in animal advocacy despite societal resistance and slow progress
RESOURCES
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INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Jasmin Singer: Welcome to The Hen Report from Our Hen House. I'm Jasmin Singer.
Mariann Sullivan: I'm Mariann Sullivan.
Jasmin Singer: So excited about our chat today. Just a quick reminder first that the Our Hen House podcasts are now divided up into all of these...
Mariann Sullivan: Jasmin, everybody already knows this.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I know, but what do you call it when you go out to eat and it's like, oh, like tapas. It's like the tapas of podcasts, sort of. Uh, we'll put that on the official Apple Podcast page. The tapas of a vegan pod, the vegan tapas of podcast.
Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays, the long form interview on Fridays. Bonus for flock members comes out on Mondays. We're on YouTube, we're on audio podcasts. Uh, we're in your living room. That would be weird. We're not. We might be, if you're listening there.
Hit subscribe and like wherever you listen. And sometimes, sometimes when you're lucky, and when we're lucky, we have a guest for The Hen Report, and today is one of those days.
Mariann Sullivan: Who we call, we call our wingman.
Jasmin Singer: Our wingman.
Mariann Sullivan: And I, I have to say, I don't think we've ever had a woman on, and we really have to fix that, but we're not fixing it today.
Jasmin Singer: Okay. We, we can, in
Mariann Sullivan: But a woman can be a wingman. But um,
Jasmin Singer: I would call, I would call her a wingman as well
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, absolutely.
Jasmin Singer: Unless she objected to that,
Mariann Sullivan: Well, yeah, then she doesn't have to be on.
Jasmin Singer: Oh my God. Okay. Akber Khan,
Mariann Sullivan: I think it's Akber, isn't it? Akber.
Akber Khan: Akber Kahn, yeah.
Jasmin Singer: Did I say Ack like I'm from New jersey?
Akber Khan: That's common. Common mistake Don't It's worry about it.
Jasmin Singer: Akber Khan who is a law student at Harvard Law School and works with Mariann on the Animal Law Podcast is here with us.
Welcome to The Hen Report, Akber. Thank you so much for hopping on with us.
Akber Khan: Thank you both for having me. A long time, first time, so really happy to be here.
Mariann Sullivan: Cool.
Jasmin Singer: We're excited too, and I know that you've been working with Mariann on the Animal Law Podcast and we're just delighted that you're in the Our Hen House world here and looking forward to picking your brain a little bit today. So, Mariann, how did this come about?
Mariann Sullivan: We were texting back and forth about the thing that everybody is talking about and texting about, you know, you know, not pretty much nothing else about the state of the world, the state of the country, the state of Minneapolis, all of it. And, in the context of how we talk about animal issues, when all of that's going on.
I mean, it's something we've talked about on the podcast before and it's constantly just on my mind and Akber brought up a lot of interesting points. So I thought we'd ask him on to share some of those thoughts.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Well that's cool because I, we are struggling a little bit and by a little bit, I mean all, all the time, a lot bit with just how to focus on, well, not only doing the dishes and like brushing our teeth, but also running an animal rights media nonprofit in this moment in time and just sort of like functioning.
So, Akber, I know that you wrote some notes down about what you thought were kind of the best arguments, the best ways of talking about this, which is by the way, very appropriate for a budding lawyer. But rather than reading your notes, can you just start by sharing some of your thoughts on the best way to express this idea that animal rights are part of the anti-fascist argument, not something we will, you know, get to when we fix everything for humans?
Akber Khan: Yeah, thanks for, thanks for that kind of intro. I think animal rights activists are very well familiar with the parallels. I mean, it's, it's as simple as if you're gonna sanction oppression against one vulnerable voiceless group with no legal status, it's really just a matter of where you're gonna draw the line.
You know, you've, you've conceded that this is an okay behavior for some people, and now we're just haggling over price as, as the saying goes. Um, and, and I don't know, you know, that's, that's not something I think that's always well received by, by left, left wing activists who are so deep in the, the issue of the moment that certainly, um, it's, it may be an uncomfortable truth, but, you know, it's, it's, it's oppression is linked. It's, it's an intersectional issue. Um, and that's, that's basically it. And you, we can go into that in a lot of different ways.
Mariann Sullivan: You know, one of the things that struck me when you were just talking about it is that it's not, I mean, it's not just that it's not particularly well received, it's really often considered offensive because there's this assumption that you're saying that people who are oppressed, uh, for whatever reason, whether it's women or, or African Americans or whatever different ethnic groups. You, there's this idea that you're likening them to animals and, uh, instead of, you know, making the other point that you're likening the oppression to the oppression. Do you have, do you have thoughts on how to deal with that?
Akber Khan: I, I mean, just the mere fact that people are so primed to take offense at being compared to animals highlights the absurdity of the situation we're in, right? It's, it would be a different world if to say to treat one like an animal, meant to treat them with love, kindness, and respect. Uh, so it's very telling when you, when people take offense of that, that's the entire paradigm that we're trying to change.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. But it is something that we have to think about all the time because whether it's stupid or not in our minds, they do it. They do it. It, it's an, it's an argument ender, you know, it's one of
Akber Khan: Mm-hmm.
Mariann Sullivan: Like thought processes that says, okay, I don't have to think about this anymore 'cause here's the problem with it. It's over.
I particularly liked what you called your same apparatus argument. Do you recall, like what you were talking about when you, when you gave me those, uh, those notes on that?
Akber Khan: Yeah. Um, there, I, I believe what I was referring to there is just, there's, there's a conceptual and sometimes explicitly legal overlapping framework that's used to oppress animals as well as people of undocumented immigrant status. Um, and increasingly a, a shared apparatus that is gonna, is cracking down on protestors for expressing their, you know, constitutionally protective rights. So, so, you know, one is, one that I learned about recently was the, I think it's called the Animal Enterprise Terrorist Act, just the designation, special designation of certain forms of protest or disruption against certain industries as not just mere disruption or trespass, but it's terrorism now.
And we saw that in the last couple weeks, where at the drop of a hat, at the slightest pretext, you know, people in the Trump administration were justifying the killing of people like Rene Good and Alex, uh, and Alex Pretti uh, because they were domestic terrorists. Them introducing the slightest friction in any ICE operation made them a terrorist, and that justified their killing.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah. I am curious about something, and this is actually a question for Mariann, if you don't mind. I've known Mariann for like 20 years and I have, very, maybe, yeah, i've never seen Mariann as undone about something as she has been recently in the, you know, just in the cultural zeitgeist in the, in the world right now, obviously. Obviously Mariann, sorry to talk about you like you're not in the room, but cares very deeply about animals, is more passionate about animal rights than anyone I think I've ever met. But the what's going on is like, it's, it's, it's hitting, I would say Mariann, it's hitting you on like a deeper level than I've certainly ever seen.
And so I'm just wondering if what Akber is saying about these kind of parallels and the injustices and the root of injustice, is that like why? I mean, can you articulate Mariann? You, you begin almost every episode lately by saying, you know, as you said on Rising Anxiety is the other day, I'm, I'm in a mood.
Or you say, I'm just, I'm really, it's really bad. I'm going to go get through this anyway. Can you just go, go through that a little bit? Like why, why is this undoing you so much? And is there a parallel to the way you see the world vis-a-vis animals, Mariann?
Mariann Sullivan: Well, I mean, I think I, I don't think I'm the only one. I mean,
Jasmin Singer: No,
Mariann Sullivan: I think a lot of people are really terrified. I mean, it's kind of a new situation. I mean, you know, I've been around for a while and I remember really bad times. I remember the Vietnam War and the huge protests and all the people dying. I mean, those things were really big, but there's never been any like, this is insane. I mean, and I think if you're paying attention, you know that.
I do think that for anybody who's an animal activist, there is a certain depth at which you see this because being an animal activist just teaches you something about humans. That, that all, not the bad ones. I mean, we all know about bad people and who, people who do bad things and who are narcissists and, you know, or...but the good people, like we've, we all have people who we love and respect and think, you know, are really fine people who completely and totally ignore what's happening to animals.
And that's terrifying. I mean, it's just terrifying. So I think that that experience, you know, I mean the, the one where you found out what was happening to animals and you first thought, Oh my God, I have to tell everybody. And then you do. And nothing changes. Like that experience over and over and over again just gives you a certain attitude towards, towards other humans that makes you scared that they're not gonna fix everything, that they are willing to remain blind to to things.
I mean, and even if they did all wanna fix things, and I think that people are beginning to wake up a bit now, and, you know, maybe we're seeing we're, we're approaching a turning point, or maybe I shouldn't even say that. Uh, they, they're still like, uh, completely oblivious to other issues. And, uh, you know, obviously the, this one is the big one.
And when you wake up to it, it just scares you about what humans are capable of, I think. And you know, not that they, most people are pretty good. Most people are really trying to do the right thing. And even when they're trying to do the right thing, they're so difficult to persuade that this is one of them, even though it's completely so obvious to us.
So, I, I don't know. I'm rattling a little, uh, but, uh, but I think that might be the reason.
Jasmin Singer: Akber, you have like a tiny amount of smoke coming out of your ears. So what do you wanna respond to that?
Akber Khan: I, I mean, I relate to everything Mariann is saying. Um, and as a, as a younger activist, and one new to this movement, I, I already feel the burnout, right? Um, I, I felt so invigorated, just like Mariann, I was like, this is an information problem. If people have the information, they'll make the change. And when you see that fail repeatedly, it's very tough not to become cynical about a whole and have that cynicism pervade your attitude towards a whole host of, of causes that you might have been previously much more enthusiastic about. Uh, and it's, it's tough. It's important to remain vigilant against that very natural impulse because there's definitely a temptation.
I'm scrolling on Instagram the other night, and you know, I saw some vegan activists who were saying, repeating the kind of slogan of like, Everyone's a leftist until it comes to veganism. Everyone's a leftist until it comes to animal rights. And I, I so deeply relate to that, that impulse to repudiate and to take an opportunity where there's something going on that's not related to animal rights, where people are displaying such effusive, righteous anger and say, Where is this for, for animals? Right? Where is this for the injustice that's been under your nose the whole time?
But at the sa at the same time, you know, I, the, the cause of, um, immigration rights and justice for undocumented people, that's our cause too. Right now the left's cause is our cause, but our cause for the moment is not necessarily the left's cause.
Um, it's tough and sometimes we have to hold our tongue, but we sh we shouldn't hesitate to I think embrace the activism. It's, you kind of lead by example. You take it on the chin and, and hopefully that that inspires your, your opposition to join you a little bit.
Jasmin Singer: Can I ask you, do you mind if I ask you how old you are?
Akber Khan: I'm 32. I'm actually turning 33 this year.
Jasmin Singer: Okay. I'm just curious. Okay. So you're, as Mariann used to say to me when I was 27, you're not that young,
Akber Khan: Yeah.
Jasmin Singer: but, um, so, what does it feel like to be, you know, I would what a younger millennial probably, uh, and, and to be starting out working for animals like at, at this moment. I mean, not to erase what you've been doing for the last 10 years, but do you feel that there is more or less possibility for radical change now because of all the political turmoil? And maybe this is even a more relevant question to you at 32 than it would be to you at 22, 'cause you've seen the last 10 years as, as an adult out of college. So what, what does it feel like now? Are, are we at a turning point?
Akber Khan: I wouldn't say a turning point, you know, that implies like a kink in the curve or something like that. But, um, I'd say it's maybe wishful thinking, but I, I'd say we're at a steady upward trajectory. This is not the kind of cause that's gonna catch fire overnight and convince everyone.
That goal of get getting rid of factory farming in our lifetime, it's one you gotta hope for the bests, prepare for the worst. But, um, maybe the same cycle that everyone goes through, I'm just at the, okay, what can we do? You know, what will work? Uh, instead of hoping that rhetoric and information will persuade those, uh, will persuade other people. I think every vegan is a little weird, you know, obviously not everyone is, you know, gonna be persuaded.
So we have to maybe think outside of our, of our circle for the strategies that that are gonna work. And I see that level of seriousness in the community now, you know. Uh, that I was talking to, not to go off, but I was talking to a, um, I went to a, uh, conference at. NYU couple months ago. Um, and I asked a partner at a law firm who's a, who's a very prominent vegan activist, has been for much of their life, about what they thought about the first wave kind of veganism versus second wave, put it that way.
Um, and I think that's kind of a change that I'm observing is that it's not just about activism and protest and indignation, but now I, I hesitate to use the word but infiltration of, of vegans into spaces where they aren't gonna be as vocal, it's not as prudent to be as outspoken, but where they might get to make some, have some input and some decisions that can actually result in better lives for animals.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, and I think that, I think that's extremely true. Like, and having watched what's going on for a long time, the progress in those kinds of ways which aren't as obvious to, to anybody, including us, is palpable. I mean, and I, one of the reasons I think it's just that there's money now. I mean, 20 years ago there was no money in this movement. And the, um, effective altruism money and, you know, the few billionaires who actually are interested in the issue has changed things a lot and there is, it's given the opportunity for that, I like the word infiltration. Um, I do still believe in the whole tipping point idea. I do. I know that may, may make me naive.
But I just feel like, because everyone actually agrees with us, that it, not everyone, but you know, most people agree with us that it's really wrong to do this, it's, it's fundamentally immoral. Um, but for some reason, don't change. I mean, that's the part that we can't seem to understand.
Like, so why don't you go vegan? And, you know, there's a, we talk about that all the time. Um, whether people think their individual change will make a difference or whatever, or lots of other ideas of that peculiar thing. But I think that there is a possibility that if we make enough pro, you know, chip away at, uh, the people, the weird people who are more likely to become vegan, who are more likely to actually become activists who are more likely to become passionate or just just accumulate that number, which grows so unbelievably slowly, that at some point there will be enough people who will be hearing it and who will change sort of, and then it will just become obvious that you were supposed to do that this the whole time. I mean, it will just 'cause it is obvious. There could be rapid change.
I mean, especially given that other problems with raising animals for food? The cl I mean, at some point, presumably we'll start worrying about climate again. Something will remind us that the world is on fire. Uh, and, and so I do think it's possible that it's not just linear progression, that there will be linear progression for a certain amount of time, and then it will, it will explode.
Uh, that's what I'm, and I'm hoping it's before I die, but, you know, whatever. Uh, if it's not, I will assume it's right after I die, as I'm dying.
Akber Khan: Yeah,
Jasmin Singer: As you're dying....
Akber Khan: I'll be doing the same.
Mariann Sullivan: Hopefully not unless you die young. Okay.
Jasmin Singer: My God. Okay, mo, moving, moving, moving on. Uh, so in your day to day right now, Akber, tell us a little bit about, you know, the, tell us about the program at Harvard and how you're sort of integrating all of these thoughts into your work these days.
Akber Khan: Yeah. Well, so before I, I went to law school. I was in, uh, I studied economics and I worked at the Federal Reserve for five years. Uh, and then as an economist at a firm called Morning Consult doing forecast. And I was living in DC um, so I got involved with the animal activist scene there and just got, you know, persuaded that this was a morally urgent enough cause that I should upskill, maybe laterally skill to, uh, to a JD
Mariann Sullivan: We like to think of it as up.
Akber Khan: Sure. Um, and, um. You know, I was looking for programs that were in the northeast mostly. So I'm married, my wife works in New York. Um, and I applied to schools that had some like relationship with animal rights. But Bob Barker, the, the fantastic host of The Price is Right, had donated, I think a million bucks a piece to a bunch of schools, great law schools, um, to have, start like an animal law program or have a course.
Um, so some connective tissue there was important. Um, and I, I went to Cornell, uh, first, I actually transferred to Harvard this, this past semester because I knew, uh, about Professor Dorf and I knew that Mariann was teaching an animal law course there. Um. It was small in the community of interested people, uh, people interested in animal rights at Cornell was small.
Um, which is why I, and especially after Mariann stopped teaching the course, I was like, well, I gotta, I gotta go where my people are. Um, and I was very, you know, Mariann, I loved sitting in on your class a couple times I did at Cornell, and I was, I had been listening to the podcast beforehand, so it was a very fan girl, uh, experience for me.
It was, it was a lot of fun. Um, but yeah, the, then I've, I've
Mariann Sullivan: And you weren't in the... I should explain, you weren't in the class because you were first year and it wasn't open to first year law students.
Akber Khan: I had to sneak outta my property class to come to yours. I didn't sneak out. I asked. I asked for permission.
Mariann Sullivan: People might have been wondering why you didn't take the course, who don't like, you know, understand how law school works, but the courses you can take in your first year are very limited.
Akber Khan: Yeah. Um, and now at Harvard, I'm, you know, I remember going to an event for, um, an animal talk, something about big law attorneys that had pivoted to doing animal rights work, um, worked in nonprofits, and the room was packed. You know, it was like there were like 50 people in there.
And it sounds little cringey, but yeah, my heart really swelled. I remember just thinking like, this is, there are people here who get it. Okay. You know, maybe half of them were there for the free food, but at least half of them I confirmed were there because they want to do something, they hear the urgency and they want to do something.
And whether there are enough things to do, uh, for a law student, um, saddled with debt and looking at the choice of careers, uh, open question. But the community at Harvard is really great. Um, and it's, you know, in touch with all, all law schools that are, that have these kind of programs, especially like Lewis and Clark, the, um, NYU.
And so it was, yeah, I like, I like, I can't say enough how, how nice it is to work in a, in a, in a legal setting and have people, uh, to talk to about this. And it's, it's been a big change and I'm, I'm very happy and, and it makes me hopeful for the movement.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, that's great to hear. Because at Cornell is, I mean, the law school at Cornell is not, it's not really big. And, and I mean, I always had a nice class, but it was not a huge community of people who were passionate about animal rights. Uh, I imagine it is very different at, um, at Harvard. Uh, and, and I'll, I'll just mention also because I found it particularly impressive, that your internship in your first summer was with Legal Impact for Chickens and um, I get the feeling that you really liked the work you were doing there 'cause you've talked about it a lot. And I just, is that the kind of work that you imagine yourself doing? Um, if, if everything works out?
Akber Khan: I'm still trying to see where my energies will match up. I discovered, you know, the, the kind of person you need to be to engage in like really long litigation, um, with uncertain high risk, you know, high reward, high rate of failure. I loved Alene and the team that she's put together. I can't say enough good things about them, just the way they approach their work.
Uh. And how they've been so smart and, and from everything from their operations to how they raise money. Um, I'm still, I'm still deciding. I, I vacillate, you know, do I want to be doing litigation or do I wanna go, okay, you know, there's, there's some other litigator who's gonna be better than me? Maybe I'll just try and make as much money as I can and donate it to animal rights causes.
Mariann Sullivan: I hate that shit
Akber Khan: Yeah. Disabuse me of, of, of that notion, you know, I,
Mariann Sullivan: In the first place, your life will be hell because you'll be doing like, I, don't know. I know it makes sense to a lot of people, but think we need people who, who, um, are working for the cause and, and expressing their passion and living their lives in a way that expresses that rather than just having your life be all about just donating. I
Akber Khan: Yes. And, and I'll say
Mariann Sullivan: That was very poorly expressed. I don't know exactly what it is that bugs me about it, but, but you know, a lot of people do that. That's been kind of in fashion in the whole effective altruism movement, and that just doesn't speak to me.
Akber Khan: You're right. I, I mean, you're right for your hackles to be up when you hear stuff like that because value creep is a real thing. Uh, it's, you know, when you're being paid to, to have a certain point of view. Yeah. Uh, you're right. Uh. The work that LIC does though, you know, there's something so appealing about it.
They're their, I think their slogan is still like, you know, Making animal cruelty a liability. And it's really about making it a liability in a litigation risk sense that corporations, it's very strategic, they have to price it in. And there's also something pointed about the fact that they are not trying to get new laws passed.
They are not trying to change the current legal paradigm. They are trying to get laws that are on the books enforced. That's it. And that shouldn't be a radical position and yet,
Mariann Sullivan: Totally. I totally agree. Particularly cruelty laws. If we actually enforce them, we wouldn't do any of this. It says it's against the law to cause an animal to suffer unnecessarily. I mean, game over. None of it's necessary. We're vegan, we're alive, we're fine.
Jasmin Singer: I, I wanna go back to like some of those big ideas we were talking about at the beginning of this conversation, because you have this big idea that the real question is basically, where do we draw the line on whose suffering counts? So what do you mean by that in plain English and like, let's just say you had to explain it to your former self in, in like 30 seconds.
How would you do it?
Akber Khan: To, I think everyone's horror, starting with just the people that we have thought deserving of moral consideration has been a moving target. Thankfully for people, it's been moving in the right direction over the last couple hundred years. But I, I was reading recently that it wasn't too long ago that people thought either the babies couldn't feel pain or that because they were so young and their memories weren't forming, that you could conduct surgery on them without anesthesia, uh, and they wouldn't remember it or something.
It's a function of norms and it's also laws are, are just a codification of our moral relationships with one another into the political project that we're all living in. And so it's just about a shift from, from the perspective of the administrator of the rights to the perspective of the, of the person, the individual and their capacities to feel.
And if you're gonna, the arguments for justifying animal suffering on the basis of whatever spurious reasoning you wanna offer, it's it's been done for a long time, or they have different intellectual capacities, they're just the same arguments that we use to, to oppress our fellow human beings.
And so we change the laws and the norms to bring the people into, into our tent. And the, the same kind of urgent moral circumstances apply across the board board to animals. It's just, it's just difficult... it's just, you know, I think about even if you were a slaveholder, who, who maybe as an intellectual defense mechanism thought that Black people were just not people. You know, they, they were obviously people. They looked like people. They, they, they were intelligent. And it still took so long for that plain as day fact to be acknowledged by our legal system. So I have the great worry for, for, for animals because we all know that they feel, science bears all that out, but they just look so different.
It's gonna take, it's gonna be commensurately harder to overcome this bias that we all have to not extend love and care to people that don't, and things don't look like us.
Mariann Sullivan: Except that people, people do care about animals.
Akber Khan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Mariann Sullivan: I, I, this also reminded me of that, that quote, I think I mentioned it to you the other day, from Sojourner Truth. Who was this, uh, an abolitionist speaker and, and campaigner, very early on. I mean, she was born, I think she was born into slavery in New York State.
So that was really early on before New York... uh, um. I've always, this has always stuck in my head, this argument that she made, and this is, this is a quote, it's not a direct quote because people wrote down what she said. Obviously they didn't record her or anything, so it, it's it, I'm just gonna say it. Then they talk about this thing in the head. What's this they call it? And a member of the audience whispers, Intellect. That's it, honey. What's that got to do with women's rights or negros rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half measure full?
Now, I don't think for a second, given the other thing she wrote, that she thought that either quote unquote negroes or women didn't have the same intellect as men. I think it was an argument she was making. Like, that argument doesn't work because even if I don't have as much, I still, I, I still have the, the amount I have and that should be respected. But for animals, it really is different.
They are different. I mean, I'm not saying they're lesser, but they're different and their intellects are very different. And it's exactly the same thing. Like that's not an excuse to, to torture them or enslave them. Like we should respect their half, their measure full of whatever it is they have. I mean, I'm not, I. I, I'm not sure that convinces everybody, but I've always loved that Truth and I always, I always loved that quote and I've always, um, thought it really applied better to animals than it did, um, to either women or enslaved people. But it's just a, it's another dead end argument. It's just, oh, they're not as smart, therefore...
Well, that, that just doesn't end the argument. There's a whole lot of other things you can say about, uh, which of course everyone says all the time, but, uh, uh... it just reminded me when you were, when you were talking about that, of that, of that argument and, um. I think that the really important, really important point that I do go back to is that people do care about animals. Instinctively. I mean, really instinctively and at an emotional level. Emotion being the language of instinct.
We just have to somehow reach that.
Jasmin Singer: Hmm. Well, I just, uh, if you'll indulge me as we start to, as we start to wrap up, I wanted to just, uh, and Mariann doesn't know I'm going to do this, but I wanted to ask you
Mariann Sullivan: I'm suddenly frightened.
Jasmin Singer: I wanted to ask you a lightning round of questions, just like super fast, you know, like, see what the top of your, the top of your head has to say about this. Just for a minute or so. Would you mind?
Akber Khan: No, of course not. Yeah, let's go.
Jasmin Singer: You need like a shot of whiskey or something? 'cause I can hold. Or is that what's in your coffee cup?
Akber Khan: Just coffee, unfortunately.
Mariann Sullivan: recording in the morning, I should say.
Jasmin Singer: Okay. Alright, Akber. A belief you've changed your mind about in the last five years.
Akber Khan: Animal rights. Yeah. I became vegan less than five years ago, so that's, that was an easy one.
Jasmin Singer: A word you think is doing too much damage in public debate.
It doesn't have to be a word, it could be
Akber Khan: that's tough.
Jasmin Singer: or like a, a, a mindset. I'm putting you on the spot
Mariann Sullivan: That's really hard. I
Akber Khan: It's hard,
Jasmin Singer: never,
Akber Khan: but you know.
Jasmin Singer: coming back.
Akber Khan: The first thing that came to mind unfortunately is, is maybe like Nazi. I, I just, I just find the constant maximalist rhetoric from either side to be... it's not the cause of our political problems, it is a symptom, I think, indication that they're becoming intractable. You know, so many things that that ICE is doing are morally objectionable and deserving of the precise same protest response without them needing to be what the Third Reich was doing.
You know what I mean? Um, so.
Mariann Sullivan: it also gives them an argument as to why that's ridiculous. Of course, it's not like The Third Reich, which is actually true, but uh,
Akber Khan: You don't want it to get like The Third Reich, but Yeah, the max. The max. The constant. Yeah. You don't, the constant maximalism we could use to maybe back off a little.
Mariann Sullivan: Now, does that apply to animals?
Akber Khan: We, you know, maybe we could also shy away from arguments that are, are, that require, uh, animal suffering to be, I mean that's, that's a tough thing though. 'cause, you know, just run the numbers. It's, it's arguably if you wanna play that game, maybe the worst thing ever. But, but we, we should just be, it doesn't need to be the worst thing ever for it to be wrong and for you to not support it, I guess. You know.
Jasmin Singer: Beautiful. Yeah, I totally agree with that. All right. A piece of media you
Mariann Sullivan: Even though it is.
Jasmin Singer: A piece of media you wish everyone would watch or read, and let's say, let's just say the Animal Law Podcast in Our Hen House are obvious. Yes, those. So aside from Our Hen House and the Animal Law podcast, a piece of media you wish everyone would watch or read.
Akber Khan: There's so much good animal related stuff. I'm gonna just take this question more broadly and maybe lightly. I, I wa um, it has nothing to do with animal rights. It has nothing to do with anything. Um, I watched the, I watched season two of, uh, the HBO show, The Rehearsal, uh, recently. I dunno if you guys have heard about that.
This comedian Nathan Fielder, he simulates elaborate role playing experiments. It's such a funny show. If, if people are, you know, want something light.
Jasmin Singer: in.
Mariann Sullivan: I could use funny.
Akber Khan: Yeah, he recreates, uh, airline accidents in an earnest attempt to solve the problem of pilot communication in the cockpit. Um, which he believes... it's, it's actually the funniest thing because he's a comedian and he's trying to change the FAA, uh, it's, it's, it's a very good.
Jasmin Singer: I'm gonna check it out. I just jotted it down. A meal you'd serve to a skeptical omnivore to keep it friendly and bring them
Mariann Sullivan: Do you, do you,
Jasmin Singer: over to our side.
Mariann Sullivan: Do you cook?
Akber Khan: I don't
Jasmin Singer: Or you could just order it.
Akber Khan: I don't, um, but my wife is an incredible vegan cook and she, I would just invite them over for dinner. I would just invite them over for dinner with my wife, and she would, she's, there's so many great vegan cookbooks, like, I don't know, the, the Rainbow Plant-based, Korean Vegan, or whatever. Uh, she's just, so you pick any one of those?
Um, as long as I got protein in it, you know, I love, I love tofu, love seitan. Um, I work out. Protein as a vegan is very easy to get, but you know, I think the, the real omnivore dilemma is am I getting enough protein? And that's so we should, we should be.
Mariann Sullivan: I, I think it's easy to get, but I mean, we've talked about this a million times, it's not inevitable. It is something we should be paying attention to and learning more about, and not just keep saying, Well, if you get enough calories, you'll have enough protein. That's not necessarily true.
Akber Khan: Yeah,
Jasmin Singer: Uh, so my final question for you is, what is one question that you wish we asked you today that we didn't?
Akber Khan: Don't, I'm, I'm grateful for the time I, uh, you've asked me everything, I got to share a little bit of what I thought on all the issues of the day and, and a little bit of my own life. So, um,
Mariann Sullivan: I, there was a question I wanted to ask you, so I'm gonna answer that question. I, I asked you, is it okay if we ask you your vegan story? You said, sure, but we didn't. So what's your vegan story? How did this come about?
Akber Khan: Yeah. Um. Relatively abridged version. I mean, I'd been aware, just like you're right, Mariann, everyone who has ever known an animal, who has entertained the intellectual argument for a second has been aware this is wrong, but... This was 2017. I was on a road trip. Uh, we, I was traveling from New Hampshire to California.
Um, and it was the very last leg, uh, that we were driving up, um, from, I think Vegas up through, um, to San Francisco and we drove by what I think is a well-known, um, factory farm feedlot in that part of California. I think people call it, affectionately call it Cowschwitz. Um, and the smell of the place hit me first before I saw it, and it was disgusting.
I thought we were driving by a sewage treatment facility. And then as we crested this hill, I saw this bleak barren grassless landscape with thousands of cows. And that was a moment where I was like, do you care? Do you care about this? Like, you've, like, it's time. It's time.
That was the inciting incident. And then a friend, you know, that I'd made in DC had just challenged me to be like, Well, you know, what about eggs and dairy? I just didn't know about calf separation and maceration. And as soon as I did, I started trying to cut all that out.
It, it took probably a couple years though, you know, um, maybe two years, two or three years. So I, I, I'd been on the decline, but I mean, it was, it was seeing it, it was the vi... it was, you know, our, our our sense apparati are just so, such powerful change agents. You smell something disgusting, that's a deep ancestral response.
And that, that really pushed me over the edge. It was, um, it was gruesome and uh, that was really, yeah, that was it, the smell. Smell of death in the air.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, exactly.
Jasmin Singer: I've never heard, I mean, I have driven on that, by the way, and it's unbelievable. I, I mean, it's unbelievable, but I haven't heard that story from someone yet about like that being their go vegan story. And I just, that's, I, I don't know what the word is, I wanna say that's super cool. Like, I don't think cool is anywhere near what it is, but for some reason there's something about like, smell, you know, being the, the prime sense of what would create change for someone and ultimately create change for animals that it, it touches me a lot.
So, uh, Akber, thank you so much. Don't go anywhere. 'cause we, we still have to close out the show here, but, uh, I appreciate the opportunity to pick your brain a little bit. I know we totally put you on the spot and you handled it like such a pro and, and you know, the fact that you are also just having these difficult conversations with us, with, with your colleagues, with your family, all of that, it's inspiring.
I mean, it, it. It was Mariann who was like, you know, sending me what you two were discussing and, and she was very inspired by it and, um, I was too. And so I'm glad you're going to be out there, you know, changing the world for animals as your, hopefully as your focus. Um, I, I also am given hope by the fact that you said you have hope. So I'm just gonna consider that, uh, contagious because otherwise, it's, it's a dark, scary place. You do have hope. Was that real or did you?
Akber Khan: I do, I do for the same reasons as Mariann. You see the way people treat the animals they know. So you see, you see that there's possibility there.
Jasmin Singer: Well, I hope that you will not be a stranger to our, uh,
Mariann Sullivan: Well, especially to the Animal Law Podcast, since I need your help.
Jasmin Singer: Agreed. Um. Thank you for your time today. We appreciate you so much.
For those of you listening and watching, we did wanna just briefly mention a book that we have heard about that looks really cool.
Sometimes we don't have time to read all of the books, watch all of the movies, but we do like to shed light on them when we can. So this is a book called The New Sentience, Reimagining Animal Poetry. It is edited by Ashley Capps and Allison Titus with a forward by Alexis Pauline Gumbs. And the description of this, which I, I do wanna get my hands on this, and I won't say that I always do because not all of the books we talk about are, you know, my, my, my cup of tea, but this definitely sounds like it is.
A poetry anthology that highlights animal sentience and subjectivity, compelling and earnest reexamination of what humans owe our more than human kin. How we write about animals, how we represent them in our poems and our stories. It doesn't simply reflect how we relate to them in the world, it also shapes how we treat them. Any cultural shift in how we conceive of other animals requires a shift in how we read and write about them. The New Sentience seeks to help catalyze this shift by ushering in a new kind of animal poetry.
And that's what editors Ashley Capps and Allison Titus dub kin poetics. Whereas animals in Western poetry have disproportionately functioned as symbols, the poems in this anthology foreground a meaningful awareness of animal sentience and subjectivity depicting other animals as individuals with dynamic selfhood, personalities, and emotional lives. I'm in!
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, that really hits that, that note that we always talk about, about how animals are always standing, what they, they aren't necessarily always standing in for humans in, or a metaphor for something in literature. But when the literature is reviewed, they, it is so often reviewed in the light that, uh, telling us what the animal story was a metaphor for. Maybe it's not a metaphor, maybe it's a story.
I should mention that, uh, the poets in this are not necessarily, this isn't necessarily new poetry. Um, among the poets featured are Wendell Berry, Lucille Clifton, EE Cummings, Mary Oliver, and Ross Gay, uh oh, and Margaret Atwood. So, uh, yeah, if that's your bag. Sounds like it's really good.
Jasmin Singer: It's my bag. Speaking of bags, I've been, uh, you know, Mariann did tell me this morning that my crafting has jumped the shark, but aside from that little, um, piece of...
Mariann Sullivan: Do people still know what that phrase means?
Jasmin Singer: Do you know what that
Mariann Sullivan: Oh, Akber.
Akber Khan: Yep.
Mariann Sullivan: That has really entered into the general zeitgeist.
Jasmin Singer: Just because this outfit that I'm wearing, which only our YouTube viewers will know, was once a scarf and a sweatshirt and is now just one
Mariann Sullivan: That's bad.
Jasmin Singer: because I
Mariann Sullivan: It's bad.
Jasmin Singer: I've also listen, I've also been experimenting with vegan leather, um, products and you know, the sustainable vegan leather products, and it's been really fun. But the patterns that I'm getting are unfortunately, on like leather pattern websites and leather pattern, you know, Etsy and whatnot. And so now I'm getting all of these ads in front of me for like leather this and leather that.
It's very, I've been vegan for like 22 years and this is the first time. This is very disturbing,
Mariann Sullivan: You need to start a whole site for, for, um, vegan leather crafting. There's a, there's a niche for you.
Jasmin Singer: No, there, there's actually, uh, there are, you know, there are some, but, uh, I, I am trying to find the exact thickness of the type of leather that they, that they want. And to use Akber's word I've, I'm infiltrating the space! Like there's a vegan, lesbian, mediocre at best crafter in these leather spaces.
Who else is gonna.
Mariann Sullivan: activism. Truly.
Jasmin Singer: Well, Akber said that I don't necessarily need to be, uh, you know, protesting. I could just be quietly
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah.
Jasmin Singer: little
Mariann Sullivan: I, I'm not, I'm not sure that's exactly what he said.
Jasmin Singer: All right, fine. It's not my finest, it's not my finest activism, but I just wanted a moment of,
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.
Jasmin Singer: uh, I wanted a moment of un help and, and someone to pat my back and say they're there, little puppy. But while you're done, when you're done patting my back, make sure that you know that Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays. Mariann, I really enjoyed your rising anxieties the other day, by the way, the one where you had the, the mood. I feel like so many people can relate to what you're doing there, and I think it's a real service.
Mariann Sullivan: I actually have a story about that. I was talking about an article in The New York Review of Books that reviewed three books about, um, about. Backyard chickens, and I was in a very snarky mood. I think I said I was in a very snarky mood when I recorded it, and one of the books was by Tove Danovich, I don't remember exactly what I said, but I did make it clear that she obviously clearly loves her chickens, but she eats eggs.
That's why we never invited her on the podcast. Not that she necessarily would've come et cetera, et cetera. I don't think I was like horrible, even though I frequently am. I just got a letter from her, the loveliest letter from her. It never occurs to me that anybody I talk about will write to me. And she said she's very familiar with Our Hen House, which thrilled me and, and just said, you know, she, she cares deeply about chickens and she knows I do too.
It was, it was lovely that I feel bad that I was so snarky.
Jasmin Singer: Many years ago,
Mariann Sullivan: I think I mentioned at the time that it was six o'clock in the morning when I was recording it. That's my excuse.
Jasmin Singer: Years ago, you and I saw on Broadway a fabulous, fabulous play called What the Constitution Means to Me, and we talked about it because there was a moment where like a fly came on the stage, like a literal fly, and the person was, the actor who was breaking the fourth wall in this moment and speaking to the audience directly, uh, was, was kind of talking about the fly.
And I, and I, I, I brought that up on the podcast and we started talking about the sentience of that fly. And I, whoever was doing our social media at the time, like tagged that play and the actor in it, like, wrote to us. And I was like, oh my God. And, um, anyway, it's just, it is always funny because you do kind of feel sometimes like you're just like talking at each, you know, at each other.
Or in your case for rising
Mariann Sullivan: I don't think that we ta we tagged anybody, so, uh.
Jasmin Singer: No, I mean, there you go. What if
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah,
Jasmin Singer: it, we'd
Mariann Sullivan: I never tag anybody that I talk about in Rising Anxieties 'cause it's mostly people in the industry and I don't want them to know about me.
Jasmin Singer: Same. I know. They haven't
Mariann Sullivan: They won't let me on their site, their websites anymore.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah,
Akber Khan: am curious, what did the, what did the actors say about the fly?
Jasmin Singer: Uh, that it, 'cause I wasn't sure if it was part of the show and, um, the, the actor and she said it wasn't at all part of the show and, and she was being really compassionate to the fly.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, that was the point on the
Akber Khan: Oh, very good.
Mariann Sullivan: was trying to save the fly.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah. And so I, so I, when I replied, I was like, Hey, you should go to PS Kitchen, you know, right in the theater district, vegan restaurant.
And she wrote back and we had a nice back and forth, and she's like, okay, I just made reservations. So it was like, this was like 10 years ago or something. And this, it was just such a fun moment of activism. And I'm an, I'm an actor and like endlessly starstruck with anyone who's on Broadway, you know, whether it's like the chorus, the chorus girl in the back of the, like, anyone, I'm like, I love you and want to be you. And so I was, I was gobsmacked by the whole thing. And, and, and, and
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, and the, and the, it all worked out well for the fly.
Jasmin Singer: It sparked a little back and forth about sentience and the whole play, What the Constitution Means to Me, which you can watch now.
There is a, a recorded version of it on one of the streaming networks, which Akber I totally recommend. I It's so good.
Mariann Sullivan: Oh yeah, if you haven't seen it, it's so good.
Jasmin Singer: It's about thoughtfulness and like, and, and social justice. And so like using this little fly as an opportunity to go deeper and bring in the animals was a really cool opportunity.
Wow. That was a total, I diver, I digress completely. But anyway, I think and Mariann
Mariann Sullivan: Speaking of which we're at almost at 50 minutes and Vicki is going to kill us.
Jasmin Singer: kill us. Um, by the way, Vicki, whenever we talk about how she's gonna kill us or yell at us, she's like, I don't yell. You know? And it, she is like, she is like the kindest, most
Mariann Sullivan: Right. She never yells,
Jasmin Singer: like,
Mariann Sullivan: but, but,
Jasmin Singer: it is
Mariann Sullivan: but she does work very hard and it's a lot of extra work.
Jasmin Singer: Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays, that's this, uh, the long
Mariann Sullivan: Wait, I have something else I need to talk about. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Vicki. No, I, I just wanted to mention in this context, the, the interview that comes out on Friday is the Animal Law Podcast interview, and it is with, um, Wayne Hsiung and Steffen Seitz about Wayne's conviction in Sonoma County. Uh, you know, of course which he went to prison for , he's been out for a long time now and it's great interview. And I just wanted to mention it in particular because there's a new article about Wayne. Well, it's an interview with Wayne, um, in The New Yorker. The New New Yorker, which like, that's really impressive getting an article there, about, um, what I talked to him about the last time he was on the podcast, which is his, his journey as, uh, going to seminary and studying, um, the, the, the usefulness of, of, of religion, not just religious beliefs, but religious structure and, uh, religious community in, in animal activism. So, great article. Great interview.
Akber Khan: You
Jasmin Singer: know, Victoria Moran of Main Street Vegan also like studied religion. I mean, I
Mariann Sullivan: Absolutely.
Jasmin Singer: She has like a master's in it, I think. And it, be, or she has a degree in it. But the, the point is I think that's really fascinating. I'm
Mariann Sullivan: think it's, I think it's hugely important.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah,
Mariann Sullivan: I mean, I, you know, it's unbelievable how all the religions just take a pass. Well, maybe not, maybe not Buddhism, but it takes kind of a pass
Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.
Akber Khan: The Jains.
Mariann Sullivan: Moral issues. They're just like, oh, yeah, well, we'll deal with that when we fix humans. I'm sorry, Akber, what were you gonna say?
Akber Khan: The, the Jains get it, get it right. You know, uh, I, I do love the Jain community.
Mariann Sullivan: The vegan Jains.
Akber Khan: Yes. Yeah, yeah. No, I read that article that you, that you sent, that you shared with me this morning about that Mariann, or, or last night. And, uh, I give so much credit to Wayne. The man is really a, a moral entrepreneur.
Um, and I, and I think religion as a
Mariann Sullivan: It's a great line.
Akber Khan: as a, as a new vector for animal rights community building and, and activism is, is, is smart. Um, and, um, I'm excited to see what he does with it. Um.
Mariann Sullivan: me too.
Jasmin Singer: totally. Totally.
Mariann Sullivan: I find religion completely fascinating. So there's that too.
Jasmin Singer: And, and you know, I, I'm, I mentioned Mariann and I have known each other for about 20 years and you know, we, we originally met 'cause I was writing an article on the overlaps between animal rights and gay rights. And, and you, you mentioned Akber before that, you know, it is all interconnected and I think that that was very much the crux of, uh, Mariann and I coming together originally. It's, to the point of religion, like as soon as someone says God said so, then any, like, goes, I mean anything goes. It's
Mariann Sullivan: Conversation under. Yeah.
Jasmin Singer: And God said so. Cool, check. I mean, and, and so how do we infiltrate those spaces and
Mariann Sullivan: Well, we could actually read the Bible or perhaps the Quran or, and, and there'd be really good stuff in there that God, allegedly anyway, actually did say, which isn't anything like what people say that God said, frequently.
Akber Khan: Yeah, I, it's both, I think, pretty wise for the animal rights activists to be exploring that, uh, you know, there's that book by Matthew Scully, I think y'all're probably familiar, familiar with Dominion, which I don't think is affiliated with the, with the documentary, um, about the Christian case for compassion towards animals and, and, and veganism.
That's really important. I think exploring... there's the Wilberforce Institute, I believe, which, you know, I'm not super familiar with their work necessarily, but I just know that it's, you know, making appeals to conservatives. I think that's really, really important, important work if we're, if we're being rebuffed or not getting the warm welcome that we'd necessarily like from people on, on the left, you know, it's, it's legitimate to, to seek, um,
Mariann Sullivan: Absolutely.
Akber Khan: you know, bedfellows on the, on the right.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.
The animals who are eaten, eaten by, uh, by conservative people suffer just as much as the animals eaten lefties. We have to appeal to everybody, can't just, uh...
Also religion, I mean, I think goes beyond like a, you know, red, blue divide.
Akber Khan: Yeah, and you could be funny if there's anyone on this who's listening to this podcast who works for like a lab grown meat company, you know, look to the Bible for your case about, um, the, the, the sanctioning by, by Jesus Christ of cellular lab grown fish. He, he fed multitudes with a loaf and two fish. He didn't, he obviously cloned the fish in, in some kind of scaffolding and
Mariann Sullivan: it, I have brought that up at least a million times on the podcast.
Akber Khan: There it is.
Mariann Sullivan: It's my absolute favorite, favorite argument.
Akber Khan: Yeah.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I totally agree. We're on the same page. Christpiracy as well. Um, so many good opportunities out there for exploring this subject and I'm so excited to hear your interview with Wayne. So catch our next episode of the Our Hen House interview tomorrow. And thanks to Vicki Beechler, who is a very kind person, and to Jen Riley
Mariann Sullivan: Is not gonna yell at us, but she we'll know that she wants to.
Jasmin Singer: and Akber, thank you so much for joining us and we'll talk to all of you next time.
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