The Hen Report: “Animals All the Time” | Advocacy Pathways & Legal Victories

In this week’s episode of The Hen Report, Jasmin and Mariann dive into critical discussions about animal advocacy and the many ways we can all contribute to changing the world for animals. The conversation explores different approaches to animal activism beyond just career choices, highlighting the importance of finding your unique path in the movement.

This episode explores:

• The debate around “earning to give” in animal advocacy and why Mariann wrote a thought-provoking Substack piece arguing that our contributions to animal rights extend far beyond financial donations
• Recent legal victories for animals, including Tofurky’s constitutional win against Texas food label censorship laws targeting plant-based products
• Promising developments in reducing animal testing, with Taiwan prioritizing animal-free testing methods for new food products and the EPA recommitting to replacing animal tests
• The surprising ecological importance of alligators in wetlands for carbon storage and climate protection
• A groundbreaking lawsuit using habeas corpus to seek the release of dogs from the notorious Ridglan beagle breeding facility in Wisconsin

RESOURCES

• • • • Earning to Give? You are more than that.
      • Court Rules Texas Food Label Censorship Law is Unconstitutional
      • Animal Rights Attorneys File Lawsuit Seeking Release of Dogs at Notorious Beagle Breeding Facility
      • Victory! PETA Saves Animals from Pointless and Deadly Tests in Taiwan
      • Physicians Committee Applauds EPA for Recommitting to Replacing Animal Tests
      • Gator Country’s Climate Guardians
      • Environmental Organizations Ask USDA to Stop Subsidizing Manure Digesters
      • Kind by Gretchen Primack
  •  

    INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

    Jasmin Singer: Welcome to the Hen report from Our Hen House. This is Jasmin Singer,

    Mariann Sullivan: This is Mariann Sullivan.

    Jasmin Singer: and Mariann has a new, uh, microphone that she loves.

    Mariann Sullivan: You, I, I do not understand why you would buy these microphones. They're so distracting.

    Show More Transcript

    I want everybody watching on YouTube

    Jasmin Singer: To what?

    Mariann Sullivan: to write in about how distracting they are.

    Jasmin Singer: No, don't do that. There be, I like,

    Mariann Sullivan: so annoying.

    Jasmin Singer: I like to be distracted.

    Mariann Sullivan: explain what they look like for people who are

    Jasmin Singer: Oh. They look like a gay disco from the seventies. Uh,

    Mariann Sullivan: have like moving lights on them in rainbow

    Jasmin Singer: and they're actually gamer mics. Yeah. Well, you know, I, I don't know why I have it.

    Mariann Sullivan: No, I have to get my old mic. Uh, something happened to my old mic.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

    Mariann Sullivan: was just a perfectly good mic and cost plenty of money. It was not a cheap

    Jasmin Singer: We'll fix it.

    Mariann Sullivan: I, and it just started like. Mics are so sensitive. They're always screwing up. It's just started glitching out

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah,

    Mariann Sullivan: Anyway. Who cares?

    Jasmin Singer: cares?

    Mariann Sullivan: Uh, let's

    Jasmin Singer: So the, let, let me just say so that I say, so that I said it.

    Mariann Sullivan: Sex Baby.

    Jasmin Singer: That's not the topic of the podcast, but maybe we get better ratings. It it, if, if it was,

    Mariann Sullivan: Oh, we could

    Jasmin Singer: is.

    Mariann Sullivan: talk about, uh, politics, which is currently all about sex with children.

    Jasmin Singer: Uh, oh, God. I can't,

    Mariann Sullivan: depressing.

    Jasmin Singer: No. Our head, let's not, let's not get depressing. Instead, let's talk about the exploitation and commodification of, of innocent animals. Okay. So just a quick reminder, Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays, the long form interviews on Fridays and bonus for Flock members comes out on Mondays, we're a podcast we're on YouTube. Hit subscribe.

    I am learning how to sew on a sewing machine, and I am,

    Mariann Sullivan: I'm frightened.

    Jasmin Singer: yeah, more Moore has been teaching me, she's like a pro. She's a pro and

    Mariann Sullivan: No, she's like real seamstress.

    Jasmin Singer: And it's, I really love it. And you know, it's, it's, it's funny because to what you just said about the news and everything. I, I genuinely think that the number one main reason I'm taking, or not reason, but way I'm taking care of my mental health is these crafts that I'm doing.

    And, and a lot of them are bad, and every now and then one of them is good, which is more an accident than anything else. But it,

    Mariann Sullivan: stop putting it down. I mean, you, you're making very nice things. I mean,

    Jasmin Singer: well,

    Mariann Sullivan: admit it's a little obsess, it's just a little obsessive, but. But if, you know, whatever helps you get through the night. That's what I always say about religion. Like I have no problem with people believing in God or religion if it helps 'em get through the night.

    Like, like I, I see no point

    Jasmin Singer: Well, if you're not hurting others,

    Mariann Sullivan: in atheists who wanna argue, whether or not I'm an atheist is unclear, but with people who wanna argue about whether there's a God. Like what's the point?

    Jasmin Singer: I just, as long as you're not hurting

    Mariann Sullivan: I

    Jasmin Singer: Well, as long as you're not hurting others or using it as an excuse to hurt others, which most people do with religion they use. Use it well.

    Mariann Sullivan: most people don't, but some people do.

    Jasmin Singer: All right, so let's talk about the fact that you put up a new Substack, which we haven't done in like a very long time.

    Mariann Sullivan: We have to get back to the Substack. I actually enjoy writing. I just always think I'm going, do you have anything like that? Something you think you're going to hate and you dread and then you do it, and it's like, I don't mind doing

    Jasmin Singer: Taking a shower. I always feel like taking a shower is just gonna be so exhausting and.

    Mariann Sullivan: lovely.

    Jasmin Singer: and then you're clean.

    Mariann Sullivan: But also the whole experience is so lovely.

    All this hot water, like, anyway, uh, I'm not gonna talk about my shower, I'm gonna talk about the Substack. It's because on last week's Hen Report, uh, you were listening, Akber Khan was on. He's, he's my intern on the, on the Animal Law Podcast and he's in law school now. We were talking about, you know, future careers and he talked about the possibility of earning to give. This, you know, which is the effective altruist idea that, that if you're capable of making a lot of money, maybe the best thing you can do for the animals or for whatever cause is, is to just make a lot of money and donate it to, to, to organizations, and I reacted very negatively. And I said, at the time, I don't feel like I'm articulating what it is that bothers me about this. I wasn't. And so that's why I wrote the Substack and what bothers me isn't the idea that I think everybody needs. I think this is what I sounded like, that everybody should, should go after a job in the movement, which I don't think that's true.

    I mean, I think there are a whole lot of different reasons for why you pick a particular career. I mean, and also not everybody can get a job in the movement and you know, some people need more money than that. Some people I like, there's a whole lot of reasons and that's fine, but I don't think that anybody should think of themselves just as their paycheck and that's what they're doing for the animals.

    There's, I mean, Our Hen House is bas basically built of the whole idea that everybody, no matter what they're doing for a living, is capable of working to change the world for animals, wherever they are, whatever they do, in loads of different ways. And, you know, everybody already knows that. And that that's, you know, what we promote.

    But I felt like it didn't say it well last or at all last, last week. So I kind of crystallized my, um, my thoughts in our Substack, which is, if you're interested, it is called for reasons too complicated and stupid to go into, not called Our Hen House, it's called Exes and Ohs.

    Jasmin Singer: Yes, it is. And it's not a stupid title. It's a great title. Actually, I quite enjoyed this and I'm glad that you, uh, published it because it, it's a topic that has come up in other circles that I'm in recently, and I think it's just like all the rage to be talking about right now, especially in, as you mentioned, effective altruist circles.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

    Jasmin Singer: I think that, like, of course, I remember a billion years ago reading The Life You Can Save by Peter Singer and he makes the case of donating a percentage of your paycheck no matter how much. Yeah, totally. Even if you're making,

    Mariann Sullivan: Earning to give is also, I mean, if that's what you wanna do, and it's not gonna make you completely miserable, like you don't have to get a job that's gonna make you completely miserable. But if, if you can do it and you manage not to get, uh, know, caught up in the money or whatever, I, I think it's great.

    Like donating money is

    great.

    If you make more money, donating more money is great. It's just not everything. I mean, there's so much more to you and your animal advocacy than your money.

    Jasmin Singer: I don't know if this is helpful or not, but, um, because I wear a lot of hats, I like to look at my whole life as like a, you know, a pie chart and there's what I do to help those in the, in the movement, that's Our Hen House. Um, you know, emboldening others. There's work I do outside the, uh, outside the movement to help animals, which is a different type of activism for me.

    There's, you know, work I do in, uh, in, in book writing or, or helping authors to create books. And, uh, that would, would sort of fall under the category of both of those things because I would like to help thought leaders, uh, leverage their platforms and...

    Mariann Sullivan: Are we now using the term thought leaders?

    Jasmin Singer: No, I hate it. It's,

    Mariann Sullivan: we hated

    Jasmin Singer: I hate the term thought leaders. I do.

    Well, I agree. I don't like it. Excuse me. I'll, I'll have to.

    Mariann Sullivan: I was just asking.

    Jasmin Singer: lead the, I will lead the thought to think of a different way of putting it. Or people, you know, visionaries who wanna help change the world for animals. And then for my own sanity, there are a couple other categories too, bless you.

    Mariann Sullivan: Thank you.

    Jasmin Singer: That I'm always bringing my animal rights ethos and veganism into anyway.

    Um, but it, I find that that's useful. And then there's what you give, what you donate, whether that's time or money or both. And, and so for those of you listening, just try and if this resonates with you, look at your life as like more of a big picture as opposed to a fragmented collection of this is, and that's. Uh, so I find that

    Mariann Sullivan: I don't think, I mean, I feel like I'm exactly the opposite 'cause I don't, of course I'm retired and I, you know, I

    Jasmin Singer: Well sort of,

    Mariann Sullivan: uh, retired in the sense that I can kind of do what I want.

    Jasmin Singer: mm-hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: And uh, it's just animals. It's just animals. It's animals all the time.

    Jasmin Singer: I think that what I do is more or less animals all the time. I just, there, there's a couple, there's a couple outlets,

    Mariann Sullivan: a couple of different things.

    Jasmin Singer: right? Yeah. In any case,

    Mariann Sullivan: whole life is like a picture of a sunny day. Uh, that, that's my second song, um, of the day.

    Jasmin Singer: oh.

    Mariann Sullivan: you people listening.

    Jasmin Singer: Do you remember that when we gave that,

    Mariann Sullivan: that is such a

    Jasmin Singer: when we gave that talk, uh, where about effective altruism? Where we were the contrarians in 2015? We sang. We sang like,

    Mariann Sullivan: it as often

    Jasmin Singer: no, no, no. I just wanna say we sang like Broadway songs.

    Mariann Sullivan: We did.

    Jasmin Singer: No wonder we weren't invited back. I

    Mariann Sullivan: No wonder effective altruism never fixed any of its flaws because we didn't, instead of saying it clearly and telling them what they needed to do, we sang it.

    Jasmin Singer: Oh, interesting aside, since we're on the subject of musical theater, as, as,

    Mariann Sullivan: as we so

    Jasmin Singer: as, as you might recall, I,

    uh, in December played Judy Garland and they made all of my costumes cruelty free that she was, you know, she frequently wore fur and feathers and things like that. Well, tonight we're you and I are seeing Hello Dolly, starring Elaine Hendrix, who is, uh, animal rights activist and an actress.

    I interviewed her once for Veg News, I think, and uh, I happened to see on Instagram the other day that she wrote Hello Cruelty Free Dolly. And she has these big elaborate feathers, but they're faux.

    Mariann Sullivan: Pretty impressive

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

    Mariann Sullivan: would've thought you had to skip the

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: they apparently have vegan

    Jasmin Singer: So I sent, well, I think they made them, I sent it,

    Mariann Sullivan: still it's, I didn't think it was possible.

    Jasmin Singer: sent it to my, uh, the costume team for the show, I just did.

    And they were like, can you find out what that is so that we know? And I'm like, wow, Rochester is leading the charge for like cruelty free versions of costumes. I'm, I'm excited to see it with that like additional little thing in mind.

    Mariann Sullivan: are we both gonna stand up and cheer when she walks out with feathers on? Maybe not.

    Jasmin Singer: Hand out vegan brochures. That's what I was planning on doing. No wonder I don't get invited back.

    Mariann Sullivan: brought it back home. There are so many things you could do in your life other than your job for animals, including going to the theater and handing out brochures.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah. So we'll, we'll link to the Substack. Uh, there's a couple other things that we wanted to talk about today. I was happy to.

    Mariann Sullivan: a lot of things.

    Jasmin Singer: I was happy to see that there were, there was like a nice little collection of some good news mentions that you wanted to bring up.

    Mariann Sullivan: of it is legal. I have to say. There are many things if you do wanna work in the movement, there are many things you can do, but lawyers are kind of kicking it out.

    Jasmin Singer: Nice.

    Mariann Sullivan: I have to say, this is about, I mean, this isn't an innovative lawsuit. It's uh, it's, um, it's about a to, it's another Tofurky lawsuit,

    Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: and this is in Texas, and this is from ALDF Court Rules Texas Food Label Censorship Law is Unconstitutional.

    There have been a number of these that have been raised, that have been ruled unconstitutional. And, and basically what the law provided was that, uh, requiring, um, very specific disclaimers like, uh, analog or meatless, plant-based or made from plants in a specific text size close to the name of the, um, product on the label.

    A law requiring that is just trying to, you know, fuck with us.

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: it's not, I mean, the, of course, you're not allowed to deceive com, um, consumers, you have to clearly label. And as we all know, Tofurky does clearly label that it's plant-based, but as long as it's not confusing, the state cannot go around requiring specific language.

    And, you know, we all know that these laws are just, uh, attempts to destroy the plant-based movement. And, uh, so Tofurky has really led this charge. I mean, obviously they have, they have a lot of skin in the game, uh, so to speak, but also good for them. I mean, has been a huge undertaking to take on all these lawsuits.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

    Mariann Sullivan: And, um, yeah, another victory here in Texas.

    Jasmin Singer: Uh,

    Mariann Sullivan: not here in

    Jasmin Singer: not here. I,

    Mariann Sullivan: Texas.

    Jasmin Singer: I,

    Mariann Sullivan: Um,

    Jasmin Singer: I wonder what the judge thinks when they get that case. If they're like, what? I'm always curious about that, by the way. I, I was supposed to do jury duty. Well, I, I showed up. It's not like I didn't show up. Look, Murray's been wearing this juror sticker ever since then. I got released before they, when they found out they didn't actually need a jury, but

    Mariann Sullivan: Usually what happens,

    Jasmin Singer: yeah.

    Mariann Sullivan: not always.

    Jasmin Singer: No, but it, it, it's funny though, just to think about like a judge, you know, coming into work that morning, and th this is the, this is the case that's on their desk. When you were, when you were at the court, uh, in New York, the appellate court where you were a lawyer, uh, did you ever get any animal related cases?

    Mariann Sullivan: Seldom.

    Jasmin Singer: Oh.

    Mariann Sullivan: Seldom. There were just a few.

    Jasmin Singer: And I mean, I, anything that you're able to, do you remember? Are you able to talk about it?

    Mariann Sullivan: I, I don't really remember.

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: There wasn't anything really super notable or groundbreaking, but, you know, I don't think animal law had really like, started to come into its own at that point. There weren't that many people breaking the lawsuits. And now wow, they're kicking it out of the park, hitting it out of the park. Alright our next story is also about, about a lawsuit. Um, this is from Vegan News, which is excellent, by the way,

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, it's vegan-news.net.

    Mariann Sullivan: Um, and, uh, animal rights attorneys filed lawsuits seeking release of dogs at notorious beagle breeding facility. This is about Ridglan, which we've talked about before. And, and, you know, Ridglan is this terrible, terrible, beagle breeding facility in Wisconsin and there's been a number of different lawsuits going on, starting off with an undercover investigation. And, uh, it too, a, a saga too long to tell, but in January of last year, a Dane County, it's in Dane County, Wisconsin, appointed a special prosecutor after finding that the facility violated anti cruelty laws. Because they, they these animals absolutely horribly. And that special prosecutor found sufficient evidence to bring cruelty charges, but the, the solution was that Ridglan would be allowed to avoid prosecution. You know, like if you break the law, don't you get charged? Isn't that the way this works? No.

    If it relinquished its state license to sell dogs by July 1st, 2026. So it's been ongoing since then, though they know they're gonna have to wind down. But there's all these dogs in there. I think thou, I think a couple of thousand that, uh. , you know, what are gonna happen to these dogs on July 1st, 2026? So, so, um.

    Jasmin Singer: I will take a few hundred.

    Mariann Sullivan: The Animal Activist Legal Defense Project, which has been handling this case from the beginning, has joined with the Non-Human Rights Project, which does the habeas corpus suits, like the Happy the Elephant case. And they have just come up with this fascinating lawsuit relying on habeas corpus saying that, that, um, these dogs, it, it's not just a matter of carrying out like the courts mandates, the dogs themselves have a legal right to be free from cruelty, that there's a cruelty law, and it, it bestows this right upon the dogs. And, uh, a recent poll shows that 94% of voters in Wisconsin believe dogs have a legal right to be free from cruelty. So, uh, maybe it's time to, uh, so they're, they're representing the dogs.

    They wanna get them released, uh, on the dog's behalf, not on on the humans' behalf, and, and, uh, Best Friends, uh, and About One Tail at a Time, which is a Chicago based, um, rescue, have offered to take the dogs, and we're talking about thousands of dogs. So, you know, they have this, uh, this is brilliant and I, I am really looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

    Oddly, uh, when. Wayne Hsiung was on the podcast, uh, a few weeks ago and he mentioned very briefly that he wasn't in the UK, where he now lives, he was in Wisconsin because they were doing some follow up work on Ridglan. Obviously, this is what they were working on.

    Jasmin Singer: Oh yeah, there are some interesting, uh, I mean, I, from where I sit, it seems like the law is like a deeply creative way of

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, no, there's a lot going

    Jasmin Singer: it's,

    Mariann Sullivan: interesting.

    Jasmin Singer: it's funny to think, you know, about creativity and the law, but to me that's kind of the heart, the heartbeat of the law is creativity or.

    Mariann Sullivan: Legal work. I mean, not all types of legal work, but litigation like this, is incredibly creative work. It is always trying to come no, no matter what the case or what it's about, you are taking what already exists and trying to come up with a creative way to say, under those circumstances, there is a way for your client to win.

    It's, it's very intellectually creative. And they, but these, these people are doing really out of the park creative work on behalf of the innocents. So, you know, who wouldn't wanna spend their life doing that?

    Jasmin Singer: Well, and that's a good, that's a good segue into another victory for animals. Do you wanna talk about Taiwan?

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, this is, um, this is in Taiwan and it's not, you know, it's not litigation. Um, but, but this is really good news. Um, and PETA uh, is reporting on this and apparently was part of the, um, effort here to prompt Taiwan's food and drug administration to prioritize animal free testing methods for all new food products.

    Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: Um, they, it seems like they've really upped, they, this is, you know, regulatory work, which is also legal work, but they, they had to update their whole, um, food safety rules for novel foods, which, you know, is hard because you don't want anybody just bringing novel foods onto the market without caution. It could be poison, but, so they're starting to prioritize animal free testing methods.

    So that's, that's, that's, uh, a step forward. And also on, on a similar front, but here in the US um, from Physicians' Committee for Responsible Medicine, um, they're applauding the EPA, that's the Environmental Protection Agency, for recommitting to replacing animal tests. This is one of these weird bedfellow things, because apparently it was during the last Trump administration that they announced their first commitment to reduce animal testing and eliminate the use of mammalian animal testing completely by 2035. So, you know, it's getting there. It even, even, even at the end of this, it's not there. But the EPA uses huge numbers of animals and um, and then it was dropped.

    Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: This policy was dropped and now they have, they have readopted it. And according to Janine McCarthy, who's the acting director of research policy for the Physicians Committee said, um, replacing animal tests with innovative, reliable, and more relevant methods and strategies has been a long time coming, reflecting growing scientific evidence that non-animal methods help better predict human health outcomes. And, uh, so this is big news. You know, the more people who adopt these tests, and the more they're required to, the more companies put money into them and do more research on them to make them better. So every, every step forward leads to other steps forward, especially when you're, you're getting the government involved.

    So also some good news.

    Jasmin Singer: it's over. Animal testing is

    Mariann Sullivan: Any, any day now.

    Jasmin Singer: Any day.

    Mariann Sullivan: Any day now.

    Jasmin Singer: oh. Third song.

    Mariann Sullivan: now.

    Jasmin Singer: That's,

    Mariann Sullivan: be

    Jasmin Singer: such a good song for animal rights. It's like that should be the,

    the, the animal rights theme song .

    Mariann Sullivan: I particularly Love the Bette Midler version,

    Jasmin Singer: Yes. And that's why I love you.

    Mariann Sullivan: though it's a Bob Dylan song.

    Jasmin Singer: I'm aware it's such a good song. The but

    Mariann Sullivan: Worried that maybe somebody, I know you're aware, but you know,

    Jasmin Singer: Somebody who's not,

    Mariann Sullivan: A young person might be listening.

    Jasmin Singer: What are they doing listening? Just kidding. Uh, okay. So what's going on with alligators?

    Mariann Sullivan: You know, I just picked out this, this article to talk about, 'cause I thought it was interesting because I have to say, I've never... you know, one of the things I don't like to think about in, in animal rights is thinking about like nature and how cruel nature can be and the whole predator prey relationship.

    And if there's one animal that, I'm not saying I don't feel sympathy, I would never wanna see anything bad happen to them. But I think alligators are just scary. I mean, they're, they're weird and they're scary. I'm sorry, that's just... I, I think they'd be proud to be called scary. I'm not sure they wanna be called weird.

    Jasmin Singer: Mm.

    Mariann Sullivan: Um, and you know, but as this article points out, it's in the Revelator. Uh, the guy who wrote it says, um, he didn't grow up in Florida either, but his, uh, I guess his wife did. And so he ended, when he first went down there and came across alligators, she was completely nonplused. And he was like, ahhh!

    But the article makes such a great point because I, I mean, actually alligators were almost extinct and, and they were saved. But people find them fascinating and that's why, but there's such a much more important reason, and this applies to other predators as well, but particularly predators in wetlands. And, um, wetlands are extremely important for climate and predators are extremely, like, they've just done research, where there are alligators, there is much more carbon storage. Like they go into the reasons they think that's why. But apparently North America, which is where these alligators are there, harbors 42% of the world's tidal influenced wetlands and they're unbelievably important for storing carbon.

    So I just thought it was worth mentioning. 'cause it's hard for me to come up with things to say about alligators that's really sympathetic.

    Jasmin Singer: Well, I,

    Mariann Sullivan: I say, I would not wanna hurt one,

    Jasmin Singer: you know, when I was,

    Mariann Sullivan: We saw, we saw those alligators down in Louisiana. Do you remember?

    Jasmin Singer: I, I do remember that.

    Mariann Sullivan: Louisiana is the other place that has really

    Jasmin Singer: I, you know, when I was a kid, there were a handful of things that, uh, that I thought would play a much bigger role in my life,

    Mariann Sullivan: Alligators

    Jasmin Singer: Alligators were one. Yeah. I thought that, uh, the possibility of, as you know, falling into quicksand was a very real threat. I thought people died

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, me too. I saw some Tarzan movie when I was eight or something, and I've been terrified of quicksand

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I, I thought that like, people died of like cancer, heart disease, and quicksand. Um,

    Mariann Sullivan: Exactly the same. Why don't we know this other?

    Jasmin Singer: I don't know. Um, I, I thought.

    Mariann Sullivan: frightened of it. We don't wanna

    Jasmin Singer: The, the next, the next thing was car fires. I thought that they were very, very, very common, and I think it's because when I was probably around five, I was driving around, well, I wasn't driving, I was the passenger, I was too young to drive.

    Mariann Sullivan: That'd be a much bigger problem.

    Jasmin Singer: My mother's partner at the time was driving and there was a car fire. And, and he pulled over, not, not in my car, uh, another car, and he pulled over to help the person. And I think it just like really stuck with me, obviously. And uh, so I thought car.

    Mariann Sullivan: Anything that you've run into that's scary when you're a kid, stays with you for life.

    Jasmin Singer: Uh, and then the other thing was Bloody Mary, which was.

    Mariann Sullivan: for him?

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, well he was a really kind person, uh, and Bloody Mary, which was like this thing that kids in the eighties believed in. I still can't look in the mirror at night.

    Mariann Sullivan: I don't

    Jasmin Singer: It, it's basically like the ghost of Bloody Mary will come out of the mirror and, and like.

    Mariann Sullivan: Told me what it was, but I, I, I was too far into

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, no, I know. But, uh, one of the things was the alligators, and I think it's because when I would watch Sesame Street, there were like frequently alligator characters and so I just thought, okay, well quicksand, car fires, alligators, you know, like, it, it just never really

    Mariann Sullivan: Because I used to watch Kukla, Fran and Ollie, which was a cartoon, and it wasn't a cartoon, it was a puppet show. It was on in the fifties.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

    Mariann Sullivan: And, and, um, Ollie was an alligator and a lovely, a lovely puppet. And, and you think that would've prevented me from developing such a fear of, of alligators, but no.

    Jasmin Singer: You wanna know something?

    Mariann Sullivan: I haven't thought of Ollie in a long

    Jasmin Singer: Well, I'm glad to re reunite you with that memory. You wanna know something that's really unfortunate? Like I know that phobias are sometimes inha... well, I think they're inherited. Uh. I was hiking a few years ago and saw a snake and I think it was probably just like a garden snake.

    Like I think I, it was probably just like the dude was out in his swamp in his home and I,

    Mariann Sullivan: I mean, it was probably an innocent snake, not that they're, any of them are guilty.

    Jasmin Singer: Started to feel faint and like I was gonna throw up and.

    Mariann Sullivan: common.

    Jasmin Singer: But I was like, also at the same time that this was happening, I was like, this is really interesting. I, I think I have a phobia. Like I just, it was, it was like physical, you know?

    Even though I rationally knew that this was not like a rattlesnake, I just was like, oh, I'm gonna,

    Mariann Sullivan: It's very common people. I don't have that. I mean, I am scared of snakes because I don't really know enough about them to know how to identify ones that are poisonous, but I don't have that aversion thing. I remember one time I was in a canoe with a friend of mine in the, in the wetlands in New Jersey. We were going down this little river, and I looked up and there was a big snake wound around a tree, a branch of a tree right up above us. I said, Oh, look, a snake. And she screamed bloody murder.

    Jasmin Singer: You know?

    Mariann Sullivan: think I, I came close to killing her, but I was just like, oh, you know, I didn't think that snake could get to us or anything

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

    Mariann Sullivan: trying hard.

    So I was, I don't have that aversion. I ju, but if the snake had been near me

    Jasmin Singer: Right.

    Mariann Sullivan: That, that I would've been logically scared

    Jasmin Singer: Well that reminds me of the time that we were driving to Gretchen's, and I know she's gonna be listening to this. We were driving to Gretchen's and, and we made the wrong turn. I think I was driving and we were like in the woods and we like. I turned into her neighbor, her neighbor who's not close because she lives in the country, her neighbor's driveway, to turn around and up the neighbor's driveway.

    We saw like an individual and we're both like looking at this individual and like, I think we both paused for like five seconds and then we're like, it's a bear! And it was so weird because I've just never really saw, I'm such a city kid, you know? And, and, but I also wasn't scared. I was like, wow, there's a bear.

    That's so cool. It's a bear.

    Mariann Sullivan: We were in a car.

    Jasmin Singer: That's true. Yeah. Maybe if I was

    Mariann Sullivan: fairly protected and

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

    Mariann Sullivan: a black bear. It wasn't a grizzly bear,

    Jasmin Singer: And he was like trying to get in the bird feeder. Oh,

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Aw,

    Jasmin Singer: little guy.

    Mariann Sullivan: was hungry.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Anyway, uh, so I think you have one more story to, we went on a quicksand...

    Mariann Sullivan: this

    is big. This is the big one. There are two issues I'm obsessed with right now. One of them is H two A visas to talk about a little bit in our interview this week. And the other, as you know, if you listen regularly, is manure digesters. It's so interesting what animal activism will lead you to think about.

    Environmental organizations ask USDA to stop subsidizing manure digesters. We've talked a lot about this whole, like this thing where, uh, mostly dairy farms, but other kinds of farm, I guess pig farms as well, have the, their new thing is converting manure to biogas. Basically biogas is, is, is, uh, natural gas, only it's not you know, it's not found as a fossil fuel, it's created.

    And you all know that, like the cows and, um, other, other animals, uh, they're both their manure and, and they, they themselves. They, uh, belch out, uh, methane among other gases. And so I wasn't really aware of the facts of how much money the US Department of Agriculture is providing to these big dairies.

    This only really applies to big dairies, it's called through the Rural Energy for America program uh, to help people buy these bio digesters, which are enormously expensive. And this is really only available to big, uh, dairies because it's not like the government is footing the entire bill. But, uh, just as, as these lawyers point out from Earth Justice, this is a way of incentivizing these outfits to generate more methane. Like, of

    Jasmin Singer: What?

    Mariann Sullivan: It's like the government is paying them to be able to collect the methane and, and sell it. So of course they're gonna, I mean, they're not stu... well, they're stupid, but of course, that's what the result's gonna be. It's crazy. These are your tax dollars at work. Um, they're, and you know, they're not even that great.

    They, they, they can leak, which may, they're leaking methane. Hugely,

    Jasmin Singer: Who bears, who bears the downside of this?

    Mariann Sullivan: Everybody. Like the earth. Uh, they're, they're leaking methane, a hugely powerful, um, greenhouse gas. And also it's only from the, the methane from the manure that they're managing to collect. It's not the methane that comes from the animals themselves. And, um, and so it just makes, and then they, then they, uh, they, they're not using different manure management systems. I know the best manure management system would be to go outta business, but they're, they're not using anything else. Why would they? Because there's money here. There's money in that damn gas.

    Jasmin Singer: If a project is, is only going to, you know, pencil out because taxpayers carry the risk, it doesn't seem like a market solution.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, That's, yeah, that's... like if it wasn't for the government subsidy, this wouldn't make them money. It would be too expensive. It's only because your, your taxpayer, your tax money is subsidizing these things that they're making money. I mean, California is the most, uh, important state, um, with these carbon markets.

    Um, that can it, because California considers this, this kind of, uh, gas to be a carbon negative fuel source. It is not a carbon negative fuel source. It's a very heavily carbon positive fuel source. but because, because the digesters reduce the farm methane emissions,

    Jasmin Singer: Wow.

    Mariann Sullivan: they say it's a good thing, but you know, the better way to reduce farm methane emissions is just not having dairy farms. This makes me crazy.

    Jasmin Singer: it's,

    Mariann Sullivan: really, this is from Food and Power. Um, I don't know how I ended up with this

    Jasmin Singer: we'll link to it.

    Mariann Sullivan: but it, it, like, it taught me a lot more about this disaster

    , than I knew

    Jasmin Singer: What are we subsidizing climate solutions or the business model that created the emissions in the first place?

    Mariann Sullivan: yeah.

    Jasmin Singer: It's unbelievable.

    Mariann Sullivan: It's really bad.

    Jasmin Singer: No wonder you're obsessed with it.

    Mariann Sullivan: There are these organizations who are really working on it. I mean, it's, people have awakened to it

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: and apparently they, so they filed this petition and it says here that the USDA appears receptive to the petition and newly skeptical of reap digester projects.

    I hope that's true,

    Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: But they put, they already put a 90 day pause on the acceptance processing and awarding of loan note guarantees for these digester projects. So maybe? You know, I mean, it's probably just that somebody's waiting to be paid off or something, but, uh, but maybe shouldn't be so cynical.

    I'm sorry. I'm

    Jasmin Singer: you can be cynical. It's fine.

    Mariann Sullivan: days.

    Jasmin Singer: I think it's fine. Just be authentic. Do you know how many people write to us?

    Mariann Sullivan: I'm trying for myself as well. I don't think it's a good place to live.

    Jasmin Singer: I understand that, but I will say that it does normalize something for the rest of us and that is appreciated. Uh,

    Mariann Sullivan: Oh, okay. I'll, I'll, I'll go even more cynical.

    Jasmin Singer: I didn't say that, but... well, here's something I am excited about. I mentioned Gretchen a moment ago. She's not just a friend of ours. She's a very accomplished...

    Mariann Sullivan: She's not just a bear neighbor.

    Jasmin Singer: She's, she's a very accomplished poet and, uh, activist. And if you're a regular listener, you've probably heard us talk about or maybe even talk with Gretchen Primack.

    We love her, we're fans of her work. Uh, we've, we've described her celebrated book of animal themed poems, which is called Kind, as painfully beautiful, and I stick to that. We've talked about it as an example of how powerful the arts can be when plugged into animal issues. We're really excited because we heard that Kind went into yet another printing, which I mean, for a poet it's like a big deal. Like the fact that a poet is even published, but yet a another printing.

    And that's thanks to people like you who are listening to Our Hen House and listening to Gretchen and who want like pro animal poetry and, and people who buy a copy or two and pass them around. These poems are so inspiring and they're, they've inspired not only vegans, but I think they've also inspired people to go vegan.

    Uh, so we wanna get it out into the world. And we wanted to let you know that if you want to get your hands on a copy of Kind by Gretchen Primack, you could go to her website, gretchenprimack.com and maybe if you become friends with her, you'll see a bear in her area of the woods.

    Mariann Sullivan: Opportunity for bear viewing.

    Jasmin Singer: Exactly, exactly. So I know that this interview that we have coming out this week is something that you particularly loved.

    I did too. But you you really

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I thought it was really good.

    Jasmin Singer: I did too. Yeah. Why don't you talk about it?

    Mariann Sullivan: Uh, it's about, it's with Jan Dutkiewicz, who's of course been on the podcast before, and Gabriel Rosenblum, actually, it's his first time on the podcast and they've written this new book, it's called Feed the People. It comes out on February 17th, and I think this book is really a game changer and I learned a lot reading it about, about, it's not just about animal agriculture, it's about food in general in the US. And where we get it, what's right about it, there's plenty that's right about it, according to them, and what's wrong about it and needs to be fixed. And really, you know, like I was saying before, you start caring about animals and all of a sudden you have to learn about all this stuff that you didn't think you had any interest in, like manure digesters. And this gives you a lot of information.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I, they have a different perspective too. I, I can't quite explain it, but it's not the same interview you've heard before, i'll just say.

    Mariann Sullivan: Not, um, it is not anything like small farms are great.

    Jasmin Singer: No, no,

    Mariann Sullivan: like good food is great and there are lots of different ways to get it and to get a lot of it to feed everybody well.

    Jasmin Singer: You know, the other day I ate food and I was, uh, hungry. And so I just remember eating and I said to Moore, food is good.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, food is really good.

    Jasmin Singer: And I was thinking about that and I was like, I do not consider food that came from animal products food. Or pro I should say, you know? And so when I say food, I genuinely only mean vegan food.

    The rest is animals.

    Mariann Sullivan: Is, I mean, I think that's one of the points they make in this, in this book is that food is one of, it's not only what we need to stay alive and to stay healthy, it's the great pleasure. It's one of the great pleasures.

    Jasmin Singer: I agree.

    Mariann Sullivan: Or should be

    Jasmin Singer: And I hope that Our Hen House is a great pleasure for you, if you're listening to this.

    Mariann Sullivan: Nice segue.

    Jasmin Singer: Thank you for tuning into our gay disco, especially those of you who are watching it. Uh, I'm gonna go get in my, uh, silver sequence halter top number and dance to, uh,

    Mariann Sullivan: Also like I have to prop it up.

    Jasmin Singer: mine. I have it on a thingy like a.

    Mariann Sullivan: I don't have a thingy and I don't want a thingy.

    Jasmin Singer: I'll get, I'll fix your mic.

    Okay. I'll figure it out.

    Mariann Sullivan: All right.

    Jasmin Singer: Alright, well thank you for tuning in. Thanks to Vicki Beechler, and Jen Riley as well, for their help making all of this happen. And thanks to you, especially if you're a Flock member, for making this happen, and we'll talk to you next time.

    ⇧ Close Transcript

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