Caged Lies: Uncovering the Dark Truth of the Pet Bird Industry with Cameron Harsh

And Cameron is here not only to tell us about the work of World Animal Protection, but to focus on the recent investigation revealing the hideous truths about the pet bird industry.

So before we get to that, just a super quick reminder to those of you who are tuning in. You can catch Our Hen House in all its manifestations throughout the week. Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays, and the long form interview, that's this, on Fridays. Bonus for Flock members comes out on Mondays.

And don't forget that we're a podcast. We're also on YouTube. So hit subscribe and like wherever you listen. So without further ado, welcome to Our Hen House, Cameron.

Cameron Harsh: Thank you so much for having me on here. I'm really excited to chat with you.

Jasmin Singer: We are too, and we really wanna hear more about World Animal Protection, which truthfully we don't know enough about, but everyone is going to want to hear about this bird investigation. So let's start there. Why did you decide to focus on this?

Cameron Harsh: Yeah, so World Animal Protection, um, for those of your listeners who may not know us, we are a global animal advocacy organization. So our headquarters are in the United Kingdom, and we have 12 country offices around our global network. And all of us are working towards a shared mission to transform the systems that exploit animals and move the world to change the lives of animals and end animals suffering.

And we are doing that in kind of two programmatic areas. One is ending the commercial exploitation of wild animals in, kind of, all major industries that exploit wildlife, uh, for products or as, uh, entertainment and captive tourism venues. And then we're also trying to end factory farming worldwide, stop its expansion, and, uh, create a reduction in factory farming as one of the largest sources of suffering to farmed animals.

So one of the big pieces of work for the US office is disrupting the pet trade, the commercial breeding and trading of animals for sale in pet stores to, be pets in human homes, kept in cages, terrariums, aquariums, um, et cetera, where they are not able to thrive. Um, and it is really a, a horrific and cruel industry that many people are just not aware of.

I think we know now, due to some of the great work of animal advocacy organizations, about puppy mills and the need to, you know, rescue dogs from shelters because of this horrific industry. But there are millions of animals, uh, birds, reptiles, amphibians, who are caught up in that same style of exploitation.

Mariann Sullivan: And why did you decide to focus on on birds and on bird mills?

Cameron Harsh: Yeah. Birds, um, is really a captivating campaign for us 'cause I think the public, you know, whether you are an animal enthusiast, an animal rights advocate, or somebody who, uh, is just, um, kind of coming new to the animal movement, it is a very salient story to tell that a bird is a species that needs to fly, needs to travel in large, uh, mileage each day.

They live in social groups, particularly parrots. Um, and I think there's kind of an easy understanding that birds in cages are not thriving, that they are suffering. Um, and you can see it in some of the images that we have shared and others have shared of birds that are, uh, suffering from feather pecking and malnutrition and just the way that they appear, um, is, is really salient and powerful.

Uh, it's also there are, there are millions of birds and bird species that are bred and traded in the US and globally. Um, and because World Animal Protection is a global network, this campaign really connects to work that colleagues in our Africa office in Kenya are doing to stop the, um, trafficking of African gray parrots, which are very popular pet bird species.

Jasmin Singer: Hmm, I, I know that the investigation was conducted by Pete Paxton, who's one of our favorite people on the planet. And so tell us a little bit about where he went and, and how he got in, if whatever you can share. And, and most primarily what he found.

Cameron Harsh: Yeah, Pete is incredible and just has such an inspiring career and such an inspiring commitment to, um, what is just an unimaginably hard line of work and a very important line of work to do these investigations and get this undercover footage. Um, he went to a couple of bird farms in Oklahoma and Texas for us that we flagged, uh, based on USDA data.

We'd known they'd been inspected recently. Um, we know that they were producing, uh, parrot species, including budgies, also known as parakeets, uh, for the pet trade. We suspected that they were suppliers of major commercial pet retailers like Petco. So Pete did work his magic and manage to convince, uh, the farm owners to let him in.

Um, he doesn't do anything illegal, doesn't trespass. That's very important to his work. Um, but he was able to get in there and get some really great footage for us of the conditions for the birds, uh, the cages, the filth, the crowding, the trash cans full of dead birds. Um, also some audio of the mill owners, uh, talking about how they suffocate birds in plastic bags, especially birds that have fought and endured injuries.

Um, so just, it was very incredible and easy to work with Pete, and he's just, um, such an important person in this movement.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I, I saw there was this great article on Vox about the investigation. Uh, has there been other attention from the press or from, from legislators yet, or are you still working on that?

Cameron Harsh: Still working on that and hoping to get a lot more press and attention from, from being on this pod with you all. Uh, but the Vox article was something that was a really great opportunity. Um, our press team reached out to Kenny Torella at Vox, and he was very excited to, to cover this story. So we really let him run with it.

And he actually published two pieces. One really focused on the bird investigation, and then kind of a, a broader thought piece on the whole concept of keeping small animals as pets and kind of the industry wide issues that, uh, small animals, small mammals like hamsters and gerbils, reptiles, amphibians, um, all the cruelty and suffering they endure under this concept that the pet industry has really perpetuated for the last many, years that these are, quote unquote, easy animals to keep in the home. They're starter pets. Uh, they're often framed or promoted as pets that are easy to give to a child because they might be, um, presumably easier to care for than a dog or a cat. And none of that can be further from the truth.

These animals have diverse ranges of needs. They come from diverse ecosystems like deserts or jungles, and they're just, um, far more difficult to manage than the pet industry would like families to believe.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. You know, we, we had parakeets when I was a kid. We always had a parakeet. They, they always flew away. I still remember them so clearly, this is a very long time ago, and every time I think of them, it just breaks my heart. I mean. I mean, I, I'm not sure they were particularly, my mother just loved animals and she didn't know that that wasn't a good way to love animals.

So I'm not sure it was for us in particular, but yeah, there was that sense that these are like easy to keep these parakeets and, you know, it's just. We also had a dog, but, uh, there's definitely that sense that, you know, they're kind of starter pet kind of pets.

Jasmin Singer: Mariann, I'm... what?! You had parakeets?! How do I not know this huge piece of

Mariann Sullivan: It makes me so sad I never... I mean, one was named Lollipop, one was named Snowball. He was white. I, remember them so clearly. It's like we're talking 70 years ago...

Jasmin Singer: Cameron. Well, Cameron, you don't understand, like I've known Mariann extremely well for 20 years

Mariann Sullivan: We had a series of parakeets.

Jasmin Singer: Uh,

Mariann Sullivan: One of them. One of them, it was Lollipop, always liked to sit on my head and, and relieve himself there, which was a

Jasmin Singer: Oh my God.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, but he loved me.

Jasmin Singer: Oh, well,

Mariann Sullivan: I loved him too.

Cameron Harsh: It's very common. And yeah, I also, as a child, had had a parakeet and, uh, her name was Indigo. So definitely remember, uh, remember Indigo well. But this is part of the importance of getting this messaging out there and getting this information out there. 'Cause obviously the families who bring parakeets into their homes are doing it, um, out of an enthusiasm for animals, a love for animals, and an interest in, in having pets and animals in their home.

And they, my family included at the time, have no idea what is happening behind the scenes and what this pet trade is entailing, in terms of cruelty and suffering. And also just the high mortality rates of this business are just seen as the cost of doing business.

Jasmin Singer: I, you know, I keep thinking about bunnies and, and those, what I think are quite successful campaigns about how, like, you know, not to get your kid a bunny for Easter as a gift. Uh, and you know, I've been, we've interviewed people about campaigns like that in the past. This is the first time that I think we've done an interview like this, but it is a similar kind of conversation, isn't it?

Cameron Harsh: Yeah, it's, it's absolutely a very similar conversation to the work that has been done to pass laws banning the sale of bunnies, um, as well as dogs and cats. And there's so much incredible groundwork that has been done by other organizations to get these, um, city and state bans on the sale of dogs, cats, and rabbits, um, and really focus on rescue and, um, you know, bringing animals into your home who are at shelters, who are in need of care and compassion.

And, um, shelters are overrun with, uh, surrendered animals. So all of that groundwork has really helped us add to that narrative and say there are also millions of other animals caught up in this same system who may not be like dogs and cats, where we as humans have developed an emotional understanding of the ways that they communicate and the ways that they emote.

And we start to feel like we can understand dogs and cats and whether they're happy or sad or suffering or content. Um, but the same capacity for suffering, contentment, positive and negative states is true for birds, reptiles, amphibians, fishes, um, and we really need to extend our circle of compassion to these animals as well.

Mariann Sullivan: For birds, isn't it even kind of a bigger deal? I mean like everything I've read about birds, especially parrots, but that's just because I've heard about parrots. It might be true of parakeets. I guess it's mostly cer, different kinds of parrots and parakeets are the, the, I don't know enough about birds to like know whether macaws, which I know are popular pets are actually parrots or whatever. Anyway, I'm babbling because what I really wanted to get to is the fact that parrots are insanely intelligent, right? And they're also extremely needy and, uh, not in a bad way, but, but they're flock animals. They, they, you know, they're very, very tuned into their flock, which ends up being the person who's caring for them, and they can, they're very emotional and, and everything I've read about them indicates that caring for a parrot, if you're doing it properly, is a completely full-time job.

Cameron Harsh: It is a, a completely full-time job and a full-time job that, uh, I think people who bring a parrot into their home for the first time don't have a full understanding of quite the amount of work and involvement that it does entail. Um, parrots are highly intelligent and incredibly social. And that's part of what has made them kind of appealing in the zeitgeist of like, parrots will talk, they will learn words, and that seems kind of fun and entertaining.

Um, but part of that is absolutely because parrots are social, they need other parrots around them. They need to be able to fly long ranges and, um, they do not do well when they're sedentary. And one of the common complaints from people who, uh, have brought parrots into their homes is just the amount of noise that they make while they're kind of sitting and isolated and bored in a cage.

And they will screech and squawk and talk. And you see people kind of wanting to surrender their parrots because they didn't understand the level of noise and kind of commotion that would be in their home or neighbors complain and that sort of thing. You also, with many parrot species, have very long lived animals.

Um, and so people often have family members pass away who had a parrot in their home, and that parrot is then,

Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

Cameron Harsh: transferred on to next of kin, people who didn't even sign up for having a parrot in their home. Um, and it adds just a further layer of complication.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Ugh. Uh, what is the legal status of these birds? Who's supposed to be protecting them?

Cameron Harsh: Yeah, so the USDA is meant to be, um, inspecting regularly these bird mills and commercial bird farms. Um, birds have historically been, you know, an omitted species from things like the Animal Welfare Act, but there has been a lot of concerted effort to build birds into, that legislative system and make sure that bird welfare is incorporated into our policies.

Um, but one of the things that we really highlight in this investigation release, in this expose, these facilities have been inspected by USDA and violations have been flagged. And as is the case with a lot of these sectors, it's, you know, a slap of the wrist or just a notice or a warning, and there's no real repercussions or consequences.

Um, and even kind of the baseline expectations of these mills is so poor that this is really just, these aren't bad apples in the bunch. These are standard operating facilities, and that's why we need to fully end this system rather than try to address minor adjustments, minor changes in improvements.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I mean that sounds very similar to all the other animals that are covered by the Animal Welfare Act and, and the legal effort to get birds covered, which always were supposed to be covered, but the agency kept like... it is, is very complicated and very long. So I'm glad you didn't try to go into it because we'd spend the whole time. And, but finally there is some action and they are covered or, and the USDA acknowledges that they're covered and it still means so little.

I mean, it's better than not being covered, but, but as we have seen from this investigation, doesn't really, uh, doesn't, doesn't really make much of a big difference. But, um, you know, I forgot to ask, and I just wanted to go back 'cause it's a, it seems so important. How many birds are we talking about? How popular are birds?

I think I read in that article that one in 20 households has a bird as a pet, which just like astounded me. And is that right? We must be talking about really a lot of birds.

Cameron Harsh: Yeah, we're talking about millions of birds just in the US alone, and, and the US isn't the only country that, um, know, trades and traffics in birds as pets, as I mentioned. You know, our Africa office works primarily in Uganda to stop the, the capture and breeding of African gray parrots. And African grays are traded all over the world. And countries in the European Union, um, are import markets for African grays as well.

Um, so it, it, it is millions of birds in the US and it is true as well that a lot of those one in 20 households that do have birds may have more than one bird as well. And so we're talking about millions of animals each year.

Jasmin Singer: And you mentioned dogs before, and I, know that in the dog world, there are both the breeders who are registered with the USDA, which are by and large, bad, and then the backyard breeders, which are by and large, worse. Is the same thing true in the bird world?

Cameron Harsh: That's a, that's a good question and I imagine the same thing is true, but we have in our campaign really focused on targeting those, um, breeding farms that are licensed and registered by USDA and tracking the licensed industry, uh, to really disrupt this market and disrupt this sector.

Jasmin Singer: Mm.

Mariann Sullivan: So is there still a bird trade in birds taken from the wild? You mentioned working with people in Africa, and I assume that to some extent that has to do with, and it must be true in South America as well, having to do with birds taken from the wild, or is most of the bird trade based in, in, in breeders now?

Cameron Harsh: I think it does vary a bit species by species in the case of budgies or parakeets, uh, the vast majority in the US are coming from breeding farms like the ones that we investigated. Um, but when you talk about other parrot species and some of the species like macaws and African grays, those could be a combination of wild capture and, um, captive reared. Uh, in Uganda, a lot of the African gray parrot trade involves kind of going out and poaching nests and taking eggs, and then hatching and raising those eggs in a captive breeding farm. And then trading the, the baby birds when they're of a certain age. So it's kind of like a, a hybrid of, of capture and captive breeding.

Jasmin Singer: So how, how are the birds sold? Is it mostly through pet stores or are there direct sales from the mills to the individuals? And I don't even really wanna ask this, but how much do they cost?

Cameron Harsh: That, that highly, the cost at the pet store depends on the species. Um, and, and also the pet store, but the industry is actually really opaque, um, and really complex in the sense that most of these mills that are breeding parakeets and other parrots are selling to a distributor. And so the birds, when they leave the mill, might end up at a centralized distribution hub that then take animals and they might even end up at a second distribution center before winding up in a Petco or PetSmart or Petland, um, or a mom and pop pet shop. So the industry is, is really kind of varied and complex, uh, a bird is potentially being shipped, trucked from mill, to distribution center, to possibly another center, to the pet store.

Um, many birds are highly likely to be dead on arrival or have suffered, you know, feather pecking or other injuries along the way.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I noticed in that article, um, that it mentioned that, uh, Petco was asked if, if it sources birds from one of these mills, and they said, no, we don't. But then the article pointed out what you just pointed out, and, and this is so true in other areas of, of animal, uh, sales that, that they go through, it's very hard to track, uh, especially with exotic animals, how many, how many stages they, so it's very easy to deny that they came from a negative situation.

I know that similar, similarly like, uh, like whether they came from zoos in, in, in captive, uh, in captive wildlife situations. It, it, it's just the industry is so complicated and probably deliberately so that you really don't know where they came from. Is that right?

Cameron Harsh: Yeah, that's absolutely correct. And I think there's, there's two things that we've really wanted to highlight. One is, um, yeah, the Petco and Petmarts, um, of the US in particular, they don't likely know or have strong information of the specific mills that bred the birds that end up in their store because there's distributors like a company called Sunpet, which Sunpet has its own litany of USDA violations that we've blogged about and written about in the past.

But they are kind of consolidating birds from a variety of different farms and then distributing them back out to retailers. So it's a pretty, you know, it's not a direct supply chain to where Petco can really say, at least we assume Petco can really say like, yes or no. We absolutely do not have any birds from X bird farm.

Um, and the other thing we've really tried to highlight is these farms that we investigated, as I mentioned earlier, are operating based on kind of standard business practices in the industry. So Petco and PetSmart, kind of, no matter where their parakeets and parrots are coming from in the US it's likely the conditions for those birds were similar if not exactly the same.

Mariann Sullivan: Right. Yeah. Well, it's unlikely that there's, there are competitors out there who are able to compete on price, who are treating the birds a whole lot better. That's just not how any, any, any business works.

If you're spending more money, then you're charging more money. So, uh, yeah. That's, that's not capitalism.

Jasmin Singer: We know that one focal point for this investigation is a bill in the New York City Council. Can you tell us about that?

Cameron Harsh: Yeah. We have been working, um, since mid 2024 to really work with the New York City Council to pass a bill banning the sale of birds in retail pet stores across New York City. So that would be mostly Petco and PetSmarts across the five boroughs, a couple of independent pet stores, um, and some Pet lands as well, I believe.

Um, so we are hoping to have that bill reintroduced this year in the new council in the new session, but we've made a lot of progress, um, building a coalition in New York City with animal advocacy groups, bird enthusiast groups, um, building, uh, information among city counselors, raising awareness about the issue and the need for it.

Um, but we're really hoping to build on a lot of the great work that others, like our partners at Voters for Animal Rights, did to help New York City pass a ban on the sale of guinea pigs. That was another really great, salient story that people, um, really latched onto and understood the importance of banning the sale of guinea pigs.

During the lockdown due to the COVID-19 pandemic, people went out and bought a lot of guinea pigs to have kind of companionship in their homes during lockdown. And shortly after lockdown ended, there were a, uh, there was a high surge in surrenders of guinea pigs to New York City shelters and rescues. And they were overwhelmed with the number of guinea pigs, uh, that they didn't have capacity to care for.

And it was taking resources away from other animals who were in need of shelter and rescue. And the need was so urgent that the city council responded very well to groups like VFAR and other animal advocacy groups coming to them and saying, the key to, to address this is to stop selling guinea pigs in pet stores.

It's a, uh, it's misleading families and households into thinking that guinea pigs are easy pets to have in their home. Um, and the, the true suffering is happening to these thousands of guinea pigs in the case of New York City. So we, we wanted to build on that and start telling the story about how birds suffer in the same way.

And the shelter and rescue sector in New York City is suffering from surrenders of birds when, uh, families realize that they have brought an animal to their home that they cannot care for, no longer want to care for, or didn't know, um, the extent to which they would need to manage, uh, that pet.

Jasmin Singer: So there's also a bill in the New York State legislature, right?

Cameron Harsh: Yes. So one of the, the strategies, strategic decisions we made as well was to, in addition to starting a bird ban initiative in New York City, was to bring it to, uh, friendly legislators at the New York State Assembly level. Um, not only would it help build momentum in New York City Council for this issue, but that is ultimately our goal.

And a lot of how great animal welfare laws have happened in the US is start at the city level and expand to the state level, and then eventually work towards federal legislation and get national protection for animals. So it's a, it's a very intentional trajectory that we want to keep making this as expansive as possible and keep interjecting into legislative spaces the need to ban the sale of animals in retail, pet stores and birds has been a really powerful story for us in New York.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. And I, I just wanna, um, reiterate your shout out to VFAR, Voters for Animal Rights. Another reason that New York is a great place to be doing this is that they are so effective and, uh, they're one of our favorite organizations. So even though they are local for us, um, that is a great, it, it must be particularly good when you're working with a national, or in your case, an international organization to find a local group that can, you can kind of coordinate those efforts with in, um, passing legislation.

Cameron Harsh: Absolutely VAR has been an incredible partner in New York City and New York State. Um, they've been so wonderful to work with and they are so impactful given that they're volunteer based and, you know, a small, scrappy

team. It's, it's incredible the amount of work that they achieve, um, you know, being so volunteer oriented and that really is our approach, um, in other areas of the US as well.

Last year, we passed one of the most expansive retail pet sales bans in the country in West Hollywood, California. And we did that with the local SPCA organization and other local animal advocacy groups. And, and that was several years of work that came to fruition in the West Hollywood City Council in September of last year.

And that is a retail pet sales ban that includes birds as well as reptiles, amphibians, fishes. Um, I believe that is the one that also includes hermit crabs, which is an often overlooked, uh, species that is traded and, and sold in pet stores. so it's, it's really great to have that momentum to build on this year.

Mariann Sullivan: How many of the laws, I, my understanding is that very few of the, I mean, there have been a lot of pet bans, um, passed around the country, both local, sometimes state, but um, how many of them include birds?

Cameron Harsh: Um, very few of the city and state pet sales bans include birds at this stage. We did help pass a comprehensive sales ban in DC in 2024. I believe that was 2024, it might've been 2023. That includes birds and reptiles and amphibians. Um, Cambridge, Massachusetts was actually the first city, um, not related to our work at all, but the first city to pass an expanded retail sales ban that included birds, reptiles, and amphibians, and several other species.

Um, and a couple other cities in Massachusetts with our resources and help have passed similar bans. Um, Eastern Pennsylvania has now passed a ban that includes birds, reptiles, amphibians, and other species. So it's, it's a growing movement and it really relies on the work done to have these policies and ordinances passed for dogs, cats, and rabbits, and really extending it to other species.

Birds, reptiles, and amphibians, as well as small mammals like guinea pigs and hamsters, tend to be on these expanded retail sales bans. We've only had a few where we've been successful in including fishes, um, and fishes, we're talking about trillions of animals, uh, particularly beta fish, um, who are sold in pet stores in little tiny tub containers that are barely bigger than themselves, um, stacked know, six plus fish is high and it's, um, it's a huge issue that we're trying to speak to more this year and, and in the upcoming years.

Mariann Sullivan: I think that completes my questions on the bird bans, but I really did wanna save some time to talk a little bit more about, the organization. Well, you know, you told us a bit about the organization, but, uh, unless there's anything else you wanna talk about the bird bans, I'd just like to talk a little bit about, um, I know you focus a lot on captive wildlife, as you mentioned, that's one of your, uh, signature issues. Do you wanna mention any of your other active campaigns, um, particularly at World Animal Protection US?

Cameron Harsh: Yeah. Um, before I shift to other campaigns, I'll just do a quick shout out for, um, our retail pet sales ban toolkit, which you can find on our website, worldanimalprotection.us. There really is a toolkit of fact sheets and resources of how to pass a retail sales ban in your city. Um, and we are definitely available to help as well.

So we're, we're looking for advocates to take on this toolkit. Um, and that's actually one of the cities in Pennsylvania who passed an ordinance banning retail sales of several species, um, was a supporter of ours who took our toolkit and, and ran with it and did really amazing work. Um, so we're hoping that that gets widespread utilization as well.

Mariann Sullivan: I I love that. I love that. You know, we, we, we've been featuring some interviews with, um, folks from, the A PA, um, Animal Policy Alliance. And they do, they also work with local groups to get legislation passed, but specifically on the farm animal front. So I love that you're also doing this same kind of work, like working with the local groups, really the leadership coming from the local groups with the, the national groups kind of providing, uh, resources and information and coordination on, on other, other types of issues.

Uh, so I love any of that kind of work. I'm really glad to hear that you're doing that.

Cameron Harsh: Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate that.

Mariann Sullivan: So do you wanna talk about any of the other campaigns that, um, you're specifically working on in addition to, uh, bird breeding?

Cameron Harsh: Yeah. Another big campaign for for us in the US is, um, focused on telling the story of Joyce the Elephant. Um, she is an elephant who is living at Six Flags Great Adventure in New Jersey, along with, um, I think it's four other elephants in her enclosure now. And they're part of a section of the Great Adventure theme park that is called the Wild Safari, that has something like more than 1200 animals in this wild safari.

Animals from over the world, um, elephants included, but they have some Siberian tigers and kangaroos. They have a lot of kind of, um, North American species of deer and, and buffalo. Um. We became aware of Joyce's story because she was an elephant among a group of orphaned elephant calves in the 1980s who were orphaned by the Zimbabwean government's culls of the wild elephant populations.

And, uh, a wealthy entrepreneur named Arthur Jones, who was from Florida, purchased 62 of these orphaned elephant calves and brought them to Florida to live on his property. Quickly realized that he could not care for 60 elephants in Florida and started selling them off to circuses and zoos and other venues.

Um, so one of those elephants was an elephant named Mundy, who we helped transfer from the defunct and closed Puerto Rico Zoo to a sanctuary in Georgia. Um, and so when we heard Mundy's story, we started looking into other elephants that were part of this Zimbabwe group and we learned Joyce's story. She, um, once she left Arthur Jones's care in Florida, she bounced around to circuses. She was a performing elephant for many years. She was part of the Carden Circus, which is a notoriously cruel circus that operated, um, in the US for, for several years. Um, she bounced around to a couple other zoos and since 2010, she's been part of this wild safari in New Jersey.

Um, she's no longer performing, um, but she's still an exhibit and she is in a tiny enclosure. And tourists pay to go through this wild safari in these big safari trucks and see all the animals who are there. And, um, with these elephants in particular, they're living less than a mile, I think almost close to half a mile away from some of the largest roller coasters in the world, um, and the busy noise of the theme park.

So we've been asking six flags to release Joyce to one of the reputable elephant sanctuaries in the US who have capacity most likely to take her and give her a life that is serene and peaceful and more akin to the life an elephant should live. Um, and she deserves the peace that, uh, a life in sanctuary will bring.

Um, and that Six Flags Park should have none of those elephants. So we are also asking them to look to relocate all of the elephants, but certainly telling Joyce's story. Uh, last year we worked with some seismologists out of the University of Maryland and we actually took, um, seismological readings around the park and noted the vibrations that are passing through the elephant enclosure from the rollercoasters and from those big safari trucks. And it's akin to, um, you know, minor earthquakes. It's akin to living in an apartment near an above ground subway line and kind of that rumbling that goes through and maybe shakes your dishes off the counter.

And elephants are extremely sensitive to vibrations. That's how they communicate and sense the world. Um, so it's really just, it's an inappropriate place to have elephants, like full stop.

Jasmin Singer: Wow. Yeah, that's so, that's so awful to hear. And obviously the issues of captive wildlife are, are very important in and of themselves. You mentioned that another focus is factory farming. I just wanted to briefly chat about that because you also said that you see captive wildlife as gateways to getting people to pay attention to animals more generally.

Obviously I'm talking about farmed animals. Is that true? Do you feel that or did I just, did I just pretend that you said that? Did I project that onto you?

Cameron Harsh: I, I think it's a fair projection. I think, you know, for World Animal Protection, a lot of our history has been built on our work to end the commercial exploitation of wildlife and tell the story of, of wild animals and how they deserve a life that is, is wild and free in their natural habitat.

And that really is a way to start also talking to people about the animals that we choose to farm and kill for food and really get people to learn the stories about those individual animals, who they are. Um, we've had a lot of success, um, in the US working with some of our new partner sanctuaries, to tell the stories of pigs and chickens in particular who have been rescued from factory farms and really make sure that people are seeing them as individuals with unique personalities, unique character traits.

Um, it is not this like mass abstraction of, um, as your listeners are, are most likely aware, you know, over 9 billion chickens are raised and killed for meat in the US alone. Like when you talk to people about 9 billion chickens, it's really hard even for myself to kind of wrap our minds around that number.

Um, so really talking about an individual chicken who was rescued from a factory farming situation and what she experienced and endured and who she is as a being, um, is really powerful. And that storytelling is really important for getting people to see that shifting to a plant-based diet is something that is so critically important for a variety of reasons.

Animal rights and animal welfare, the environment and our climate, um, environmental justice. There's so many kind of intersectionalities that factory farming hits we need to address in our society today.

Mariann Sullivan: Who are your partner sanctuaries? I don't think I, I caught that on your website.

Cameron Harsh: Um, yeah, so our first partner Sanctuary was Luvin Arms in Colorado. Um, and so we have a page dedicated to Luvin Arms and some of their residents on our website. And our newest partner sanctuary is Tamerlaine Sanctuary and Preserve in New Jersey. Um, and so I believe official partnership pages is still pending.

Um, but we'll hopefully add that posted soon.

Mariann Sullivan: Tamerlaine is a farm animal sanction is sanctuary. I'm familiar with them. Is Luvin Arms as well?

Cameron Harsh: Yes. Luvin Arms is a farm Animal,

Mariann Sullivan: Not wildlife sanctuaries. Okay. That's interesting. I didn't, I hadn't realized that. Um, and you know, it is like, I just wanted, there were a couple of things that caught my, I have taken to calling a billion a thousand million because we run into the word billion so often these days, especially when we're talking about the billionaires. And it is a number you cannot understand. I think a thousand million, maybe it sounds stupid, I don't know, but it, it does kind of convey a little better how many we're talking about. A million people kind of get the idea that that's really a lot. So a thousand of those is a lot. Anyway, that's just an aside. Um, and the other aside, I wanted to say it's like so crazy. People wanna keep pet birds and nobody seems, and people wanna watch birds and people are fascinated by birds. Nobody seems to notice that chickens are birds. Like, uh, it's, it's crazy. If you want birds get rescue a chicken instead of eating one.

That's my, that's my philosophy.

Cameron Harsh: That, that's, that's a really interesting connection too that I, I don't think we tend to make. Of, like, there's been such a, a surge in birdwatching as kind of in, in the US this kind of cultural, fun activity to do. And, and people have been really excited about birds and we've done a lot to really blog and share content around who chickens are, um, and really dispelling some of the myths, uh, that have pervaded kind of chicken sentience and chicken appreciation in the US.

And, you know, they, they are really loving, caring individuals, um, and chickens make noises that are similar to purrs that cats make and, and things of that nature. Um, it's really important to kind of share these

Mariann Sullivan: watch too. Like if you go to a sanctuary, I think the most interesting... people always wanna snuggle with the pigs, but I admit I'm a little intimidated by the pigs. They're just kind of big. The chickens are so fascinating because they're so alive. I guess this has to do with the fact that they're birds, they're so alive, they're so interested in their lives.

Everything is exciting. Like somebody lays an egg and it's like, ah!! Everybody's squawking. And it's like everything is a big deal to chickens. They're, I think they're just joyous to watch. Uh, so watch them if you wanna watch birds. Or if you wanna watch other birds, that's fine, but just watch them. Don't, don't eat them.

Cameron Harsh: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: Uh,

Cameron Harsh: It's similar to our discussion of, of parrots earlier of, yeah, they're, they're very chatty, they're very vocal, they're very social. Um, and that's something that I feel like many of us can relate to.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, totally. Uh, but also Mariann, like squawked and I just love when Mariann squawks, so you sh you should consider that like a big,

Mariann Sullivan: I was, I was partially raised by parakeets, so there you go.

Jasmin Singer: that's really funny, like, um, I just love when you squawk. I feel like when that happens we should somehow do, do some kind of award to our listeners or something. Let's gamify it.

Uh, you have a number of legislative efforts that you're supporting at the federal level. You, uh, you sort of mentioned that. Do you think there's any hope of the federal government accomplishing anything in the near future?

And I mean, full stop. Uh, and, and what do you see as the most likely thing to see some attention?

Cameron Harsh: Oh yeah, that's, that's a really challenging question. Um, and we, we don't have a policy team at World Animal Protection US, so we really have our campaigns team kind of identifies legislation that is really important to our campaigns and pieces that we think our supporters would get really, um, you know, mobilized behind.

And we put a lot of our resources into supporting those as opposed to, you know, there are many animal groups that have policy teams that work on crafting new legislation with members of Congress and can really invest their, their time and space in that level of lobbying. So, we really appreciate all the work that groups do to put a lot of these pieces of legislation together in the first place.

Um, I do think, you know, lot of animal issues are nonpartisan or bipartisan. Animal issues speak to everyone and that does help in certain situations. Um, 'cause when you talk about particularly very blatant and exploitation of animals or an individual animal and you really have that compelling story, that tugs at everyone's heartstrings and really starts to get people to question some of these systems that we have allowed to perpetuate.

Um, I think with like the Big Cat Public Safety Act that passed a few years ago, um, that we supported and mobilized our, our supporter base behind, that was something that that really had a lot of bipartisan support 'cause people understood, helped by the Tiger King documentary series on Netflix that, you know, keeping big cats at roadside zoos and in people's personal residences and personal businesses is just horrific and a, and a horrific source of cruelty to really large, charismatic animals and people really got behind that bill.

Unfortunately, in this current Congress, the Big Cat Public Safety Act is, is at risk of being eroded in its efficacy. And there's a new bill that would actually walk back some of the enforcement and, and great provisions of the Big Cat Public Safety Act. Um, so it really is, it's such a game of sometimes you do have to pivot back to defending something that you thought was won, and it's, it's something that you have to keep so much persistence and hope for.

Um, we were hopeful last year about Captive Primate Safety Act, which still, you know, has potential and is something that, again, was, was helped by, uh, an HBO documentary, um, called Chimp Crazy, that is really starting to, in great storytelling devices, show everyone that you know, the way that we are treating animals, um, is, it just, it needs to be addressed and there are ways to protect them legally that we need to move forward.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, it, it's, it is really interesting how it's taken so long for the animal protection movement to have some successes, and then you don't kind of realize that once you have a success, then you have to fight over and over and over again to keep it. Uh, it's, it's disheartening, but I'm glad to hear there's something going on at the federal level.

I'm, I'm a little, I'm a little astounded. Though you mentioned that you're really focused on state and local level. Can you, can you, uh, before we go, can you just remind listeners where they can find out more about your efforts to support local groups and perhaps how they can find their local groups that they might wanna get involved with, and how people can just find out more about World Animal Protection?

Cameron Harsh: Yeah. Um, please go worldanimalprotection.us, where you can find, uh, information about who we are and our priority campaigns in the US You can find out ways to take action. Um, and then, you know, I cannot under sell our various advocacy toolkits. We have the toolkit I mentioned about passing retail pet sales bans, um, in your area.

We also have an activist toolkit to help get involved in our Joyce campaign to get Six Flags to release Joyce the Elephant to a sanctuary, um, and a number of other toolkits and other resources. You can, um, via our website, join our Plant Powered Change makers platform and, you know, engage with our team and like-minded individuals on strategies for plant-based eating, including, you know, the newest grocery finds and the fun products, uh, that are fully plant-based on grocery shelves that might be popping up in your area.

And we're always looking to do partnerships with plant-based brands, um, and just talk to people about how delicious and accessible and important plant-based foods are.

Jasmin Singer: Absolutely. This has been so enlightening and, and just really, uh, inspiring the work that you're choosing to do and the way that you're going about it, the multi-pronged efforts that you have and the way that you're also bringing in the community to, to get involved with your efforts. So for those of you listening, we will be linking to all of this on our show notes.

So if you're also inspired, which I'm sure you are, then check that out and support their efforts. So, Cameron, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you'll stick on for a few extra minutes for some bonus content, but we really appreciate you.

Cameron Harsh: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Jasmin Singer: And for those of you watching and listening, thank you for tuning in. Uh, don't forget that you could subscribe anywhere you listen or watch podcasts and make sure that you spread the word as well. Catch our next episode of Rising Anxieties on Tuesday.

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