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App not listed? Try this RSS linkJoin Jasmin Singer and Mariann Sullivan as they dive into thought-provoking discussions on activism and communication strategies. This episode explores the importance of listening and asking questions to foster change, drawing from insights in Adam Grant’s Think Again. Mariann shares her thoughts on building a big tent for animal lovers, emphasizing the need to connect on shared values. Tune in for engaging stories and updates on animal rights, legislation, and more.
This episode explores:
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The concept of “motivational interviewing” and its application in activism.
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Building a broader coalition for animal rights without compromising core values.
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Insights from the article “What MAGA Can Teach Democrats about Organizing.”
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The impact of strategic communication in expanding the vegan movement.
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Recent news on animal rights activism and legislative developments.
RESOURCES
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- Suspended Sentences in Landmark Beagle Rescue Case
- ‘Be Kind to Animals, Don’t Eat Them’ Billboard Reaching Millions in Times Square
- A US Senator Just Sponsored The ‘Plant-Powered School Meals Pilot Act’
- What MAGA Can Teach Democrats About Organizing—and Infighting
- The Chicken Whisperer
- Animals Matter: The Case for a Kinder World
- Think Again The Power of Knowing What You Don’t Know
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INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Jasmin Singer: Welcome to the Hen Report. This is Jasmin Singer
Mariann Sullivan: This is Mariann Sullivan.
Jasmin Singer: And this is Murray, and he is very happy to be here with you,
and he wants to remind you that Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report comes out on Thursdays, and the long form interview on Fridays. Bonus for flock members, do you think that they should become flock members?
He yawned, so that means yes, comes out on Mondays. We're a podcast, we're on YouTube. Hit subscribe, hit like and comment wherever you listen. I know I am scantily clad right now for those of you watching on YouTube, but I, I swear I'm in Rochester.
Mariann Sullivan: Not sure scantily, but it is a little summery..
Jasmin Singer: Yeah, and it is still very cold out. I'm just trying to pretend that it's summer.
Mariann Sullivan: It's much warmer today. It's in the thirties.
Jasmin Singer: That is downright summery. So I have been doing such a good job at, at my book listening, reading, reading, listening to books. I, I think that I've read like 16 this, this year already. Maybe more. Well, it's because it's all I do when I'm not.
Mariann Sullivan: I don't read anything.
Jasmin Singer: You read for Our Hen House constantly.
Mariann Sullivan: I do read for Our Hen House, but I don't mean any, I don't read novels or anything.
Jasmin Singer: Well,
Mariann Sullivan: I it, uh, disturbs me. I used to read a lot.
Jasmin Singer: This one.
Mariann Sullivan: Nobody needs to know that.
Jasmin Singer: This one is, uh, the one that I wanna talk about is not a novel. I was using it as a palate cleanse because I had just read a novel like that was like about a murder. And, uh, I wanted something just totally different. So I, you know, I didn't, i, I just went into the Libby app, that's the library app, and I just like, kind of quickly chose something that was available and I chose this book called Think Again, the Power of Knowing What You Don't Know by Adam Grant.
And I just thought, all right, I'll give this a little bit of.
Mariann Sullivan: Like a self-help book.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah, yeah, for sure. But it's, it's, it reminds me a little bit of, it's about like, kind of like organizational psychology and, and about the psychology of changing your mind. And I obviously listened from an activist perspective, from a, a vegan perspective.
And there was this one part in particular I wanted to talk to you about. And I, and, uh, this is the first time I am articulating this. First time I'm telling you about it, but it really stuck with me and it was about something that he calls motivational interviewing, which is inquiring the person you're talking with, inquiring with questions about the pros and cons of like maybe a decision that they're thinking about and saying something along the lines of, I respect your decision to make the right decision for you based on your needs, but then you keep pressing without necessarily offering advice.
And so they gave the example of a vaccine convert and uh, you know, someone who was obviously pro-vaccine was talking to someone who was anti-vaccine and they said that they noticed in the anti-vaxxers messaging that, that she started to kind of allude to the fact that maybe she wanted to change.
And so the book makes the argument that there's a difference between change talk and sustained talk. So sustained talk is commentary about maintaining the status quo and change talk is referencing a desire or ability to change course. So when, when contemplating a change, many people are ambivalent.
They have reasons to change. They have reasons not to. And so when you're talking to someone, in this case the example was the vaccine lady, listen for change talk. And when the person starts to indicate that they, that they wanna change, then you can kind of just very slightly pose questions about how and why they might change.
Like why are you considering it? What would your first step be? But that you don't bring up questions like that unless you're hearing that change talk and, and I, uh, you know, I, I thought it was really interesting because, you know, it reminded me of therapy a little bit. Like, you know, your therapist isn't necessarily giving you advice.
They're listening and they're, you know, the, you know, the kind of stereotypical, like, what makes you think, what makes you feel that way? What does that remind you of? Things like that. Um, although when I was in therapy, I always preferred it when I did get advice, honestly. And, and in this case, the person who, who was talking about changing with the vaccines did ultimately become pro-vaccine. And you know the author Adam Grant makes the case that like, don't be manipulative. And I kind of, I don't really understand that part because it's like, Well, we all kind of have an agenda, right? Like especially if you're engaging someone about the importance of rethinking and unlearning as it relates to veganism or animal rights, we are coming to it with an agenda. And so...
Mariann Sullivan: Just because you have an agenda, does that mean that you're being manipulative?
Jasmin Singer: Um, do, do you
Mariann Sullivan: I'm not sure what manipulative means here.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Do you think that talking about strategy as it relates to communication style is inherently maybe a little manipulative? I don't, I don't know.
Mariann Sullivan: I don't know.
Jasmin Singer: You're trying to manipulate an outcome, I think. I mean...
Mariann Sullivan: I think if you're honest though, it's not manipulative. I mean, manipulativeness I think is inherently referring to something that's a bit dishonest, like you're hiding your agenda.
Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm. Right.
Mariann Sullivan: Or something. Anyway.
Jasmin Singer: I, but I was reading this with an open mind and I was thinking about it how I like, as it relates to how I advocate for animals and for veganism, you know? I, was thinking I could probably stand to do a little bit more of just listening and asking questions
Mariann Sullivan: I, I think that's a constant, like a reminder that we all have to give ourselves is to listen and ask questions. Yeah.
Jasmin Singer: I started
Mariann Sullivan: Because everybody's wrong, so it's so easy to fall into telling them why they're wrong, but that's not good persuasiveness.
Jasmin Singer: While you were talking and saying we should listen more, I started to interrupt you. But yeah, I mean, it, it is hard because there were, he cited a lot, he cited a lot of studies about how, how much more effective this is when you're trying to get someone to rethink a perspective. And when I'm listening to someone talking about their bullshit about why they still eat animals, I mean...
Mariann Sullivan: All right. I have, I mean, I was gonna talk about this later in the, in the show, but I have also been thinking about a lot about activism in a particular context. Can I, can I talk about that?
Jasmin Singer: Yes, please.
Mariann Sullivan: Because, because there was this, I saw it on the Bulwark, which is, you know, a, um, uh, I, I watch it on YouTube. It's a like they're very good commentators on, um, on politics.
They weren't talking about animals at all, but he was interviewing this guy who wrote, um, an article in the New Yorker, but it was based on a book he had written. And the name of the article in the New Yorker was What MAGA Can Teach Democrats about Organizing and Infighting. And his name is Charles Duhig.
And it has a lot to do also with persuasiveness and, and, growing a movement, so it's sort of related to what you're talking about.
And it makes the point that Republicans are much, much better at this than Democrats. Um, and he uses the examples which probably you would recognize of DARE and MADD, which were two major organizations that started in the eighties.
DARE focused on, um, mobilizing, so they gathered huge, they, they reached virtually every kid in the country with their, with their message about not doing drugs. And they were basically huge and very profitable, and a total failure. Because not only did a lot of kids not get... the host on the Bulwark made the point that that was how he learned how to do drugs was from DARE.
And apparently that was not an unusual experience. But then he talks about MADD, which was Mothers Against Drunk Driving, which was extremely disorganized, just started by somebody who didn't know what she was doing. And like, and the way it grew was very, uh, organic so people would, people were very motivated because frequently these chapters were started by people who had lost somebody to a drunk driver.
So they were very, very motivated and people would just start their own, um, their own chapters. They, they were run completely differently and, uh, they were focused on organizing, just organizing more and more chapters. They had different positions. They didn't have to coordinate everything. It wasn't all focused, and they're still very, very successful.
And um, so that was interesting, but the point they were making about communication, it's a long article, I highly recommend it. I got it for free. So I, you know, if you probably get a few articles for free. But the thing that I thought was really notable was some, just some comments from the Republican side of, uh, of this kind of organizing.
Um, for one, one person was saying, talking about Faith and Freedom, which is apparently a huge, huge organization that none of us have ever heard of, but it's extremely influential. It doesn't matter if they agree on everything, they just have to agree on who they're voting for. I mean, that is so obviously true.
I think that we worry too much on everybody agreeing about everything, and it's because of veganism. I'm, I am not putting down veganism or putting down people who, you know, think that it's a moral imperative, but I think that we've established that it's really hard to talk people into being vegan. Like I think that we didn't think it was gonna be that hard, and we've established that it is, but there's loads of stuff that they agree with us about.
There's just one quote about Charlie Kirk at a prove me wrong campus rally. You know, I'm sure you all know who Charlie Kirk is now since he was murdered. Um, I actually didn't know who he was before he was murdered,
Jasmin Singer: I didn't either.
Mariann Sullivan: Um, he, Charlie Kirk at a so-called, at so-called Prove Me Wrong campus rallies across the nation made a point of engaging with anyone who wanted to debate. When a gay student approached the microphone at a large Turning Point rally at the University of Wisconsin Madison, Kirk said that he didn't approve of the student's, quote unquote lifestyle, but he added that if they could agree on, say, closing the border, then quote, we welcome you to the conservative movement. I mean, somehow we have to find a way to create a big tent because our, our vegan tent is too, too small and we can't make, we can't seem to make the vegan tent much bigger, but there are loads of people who agree with us about loads of things and we should be able to use that. One of the things I've been thinking of, and by happenstance, I ran into this, um, post by Crystal, um, crystal Crystal.
Jasmin Singer: Crystal Heath.
Mariann Sullivan: Heath. I was gonna say Keith and I knew that wasn't right.
Um, and, uh, about dairy. So the , the campaign, I would love to see, uh, don't you love it when people who don't run an organization, a campaign organization, have loads of advice about what campaigns they should run? But, but that, that's what I'm doing.
Um, I'm sorry, is, is, um, separating calves from their mothers and, uh, 'cause everybody, she makes the point in this post, which is about dairy in general, 76.4% of people disagree with separating calves from mothers at birth.
I mean, that's a huge, huge number. And if we could get people to, to stop drinking milk, just stop drinking milk. It doesn't have to be ice cream. We don't have to make it too hard. Just stop drinking milk until they allow calves to stay with their mothers until say, six months. I mean, that certainly sounds like a reasonable amount of time.
It would also
basically drive the dairy industry insane 'cause that's the whole model is to take the calves away from the mothers and use the milk.
Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.
Mariann Sullivan: People, even if it didn't work, at least people would learn that. I mean, anyway, this is just an example of the kind of campaign that we could create a big tent.
We, you know, just because they're not vegan doesn't mean we can't agree with them about one thing. Anyway, I'm getting carried away because I'm just kind of excited about this kind of thought process, so I'm really glad you brought that up because I really think it does kind of coordinate with,
Jasmin Singer: Yeah.
Mariann Sullivan: With this point that you do not have to agree with somebody about everything, um, in order to, uh, be persuasive, in order to agree with them about something in order to work with them about something. And the point you were making of, um, the way you communicate, like you have to find those issues in which people are, are on... I mean, this isn't even one where people are on the fence, but where people are are open to change.
You can't just like say, no, you have to go vegan because they're just not open to that change. Anyway, did that make sense?
Jasmin Singer: You have to, you have to kind of to, to appropriate an improv term, you have to be a yes and person. Uh, you know, in, in improv, the minute you say no, the, the improv is over. Uh, but in, in activism,
Mariann Sullivan: Thank God you can go back to normal life because improv should be stopped.
Jasmin Singer: Hey, listen, you're talking to the 1996 Improv Champion of New Jersey.
I'm just throwing that out there again.
Mariann Sullivan: Thank God I didn't know you then, which actually would've also been illegal.
Jasmin Singer: I was 17. Okay. I guess that's illegal still... according to some people. Um, I digress.
Uh, yeah, like if, you know, I'm, I'm admittedly I'm pretty curmudgeonly and I was talking to my mom the other day and I was telling her how we went on this little day trip and how we went into some stores that had, we went, we, after we went into... this was like in the country, when we went into the stores, we saw things like Trump signs and confederate flags, and so we would leave and she was like shocked. She was like, well, I don't understand why people would be like that.
Mariann Sullivan: I thought you were gonna say, I don't understand why you would leave.
Jasmin Singer: No, no.
Mariann Sullivan: I kind of feel like, except I did have my anti-Trump button on, but I kind of feel like you shouldn't leave.
Jasmin Singer: Well, I, I understand that perspective. I did not wanna be there, but.
Mariann Sullivan: You were totally on a
Jasmin Singer: I was like, outie, but, but my point is that
Mariann Sullivan: It's not like it was someplace I particularly wanted to stay anyway.
Jasmin Singer: my, but my point is that my mom, like, there's this beautiful, like, I don't... like just this, this purity. Like she sees.
Mariann Sullivan: Who does she think is voting for him?
Jasmin Singer: I don't like, she doesn't, she fundamentally doesn't understand when people make decisions that are hurtful to others.
And I just expect that everyone's going to make decisions that are hurtful to others. And she, she's probably a much better...
Mariann Sullivan: I mean, people are making decisions that they don't think are hurtful to others.
Jasmin Singer: Well.
Mariann Sullivan: Sometimes,
Jasmin Singer: I don't know about that. I think that they know it's, it's, they know it's, it's, it's hurting certain demographics. They just don't care about those demographic.
Mariann Sullivan: I don't think we can boil it down to, to one thing, but let, let's not go off on this tangent.
Jasmin Singer: My point is that she's probably, in this particular way, a much better activist than me because she always finds the common ground with people she's talking to. Like she's always like, um, oh, they're wearing a faux fur sweater or something. Like, we can talk about that in like this, you know, my mom's advocating for animals too.
Uh, whereas I would just be like. You know, assuming that they don't care, and my mom assumes they do care. And I, I think that's kind of what it, all of this boils down to in a way. Like what you were talking about with, um, having a bigger tent and...
Mariann Sullivan: Right, like just because they're not vegan. Doesn't mean they don't care. We don't understand why they're not vegan. It is confusing to us, but we do know that people love animals and we need to tap into that 'cause that is a huge, huge tent.
Jasmin Singer: Right. Alright..
Mariann Sullivan: And we don't have to, I mean, I think the thing that gets in people's way a lot is you feel it, feel, people feel like they have to betray their own veganism. I do not think that's possible. I think it is always possible to say, know, I, I was thinking of doing a, um, FAQ on this, uh, and, and just like, does this, like does this mean that if somebody asked you, does this mean I have to be vegan?
It's like, no. I mean, it would be great if you were, a lot of us are, but if we agree on this one thing, we should all agree on this one thing. Like what is bad about saying that?
Just thoughts I've been having. I'm gonna think about them some more. You told me I should write a Substack. I probably should.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Don't you feel like you learn, you learn your thoughts from writing them?
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.
Jasmin Singer: Me too.
Mariann Sullivan: but you know, that doesn't make me wanna do it. I, I'm so envious of people who enjoy writing. Um. And I actually do enjoy it once I start, I hate starting.
Anyway. Let's, let's cover some news.
Jasmin Singer: Let's cover some news.
Mariann Sullivan: Uh, you know, we've been talking about these, these trials that have been going on in the UK about the beagle rescues and all these people rescued all these beagles at the same time, but they've been tried in, um, in groups of four or five, and there was one group that was convicted.
You know, one group was acquitted, one group was convicted. Exactly the same facts. It's all very complicated. But anyway, one of the groups that was convicted, I just wanted to pass this on, just got suspended sentences, so that's really good news. They're not going to prison.
Jasmin Singer: That is good news. That's great news.
Mariann Sullivan: Um, and let's see. Farm Sanctuary. I love this. I would love to go to New York just to see this. Uh, you kind of have to see it, but, but, um, they, they put up a sign in Times Square, like in the middle of Times Square, and it just, it has a picture of a cow on the side and the front says, Be kind to animals. Don't eat them. Don't you just love that?
Jasmin Singer: I love it. Yeah. Yeah. We'll link to it per usual, but it is a really, really great billboard. I love it too. I love the idea of some little kid seeing it and being like, what? I don't...
Mariann Sullivan: We eat animals?
Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Like that's so bizarre.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah,
Who, who does that?
Jasmin Singer: Yeah, every now and then I'm at a, at a restaurant and I see a kid eating, you know, a burger like a little kid and I just wanna go... Yeah. they have no idea. I just wanna go up to them and tell them, and, you know, ruin.
Mariann Sullivan: It's seriously child abuse.
Jasmin Singer: I know.
Wait, can I just tell you something really quickly? I was, uh, at a, a non-vegan potluck the other day, and my friends who had it brought, they, they made me a vegan quiche.
So they had like a non-vegan quiche and they, and, and then like two non-vegan quiches, different flavors and a vegan quiche for me. And they put a little sign next to the vegan one that said vegan, but they didn't put a sign next to the other ones. And, uh, I was the only person who ate that one, which by the way, was amazing. They used Just Egg and Viol life. It was really, really good. And I had brought dessert, which were cookies that I had purchased from a bakery. They were very good cookies and because the box said vegan, but when you open the box, which is how it was displayed on the table, the thing that said vegan was not showing.
Everyone ate the cook, my cookies, there were other cookies there too, and loved them. And I was just thinking I kind of wish they didn't have the vegan sign out for the quiche.
Mariann Sullivan: Know what? It made me think of it, it just made me think, you know, people are fucking assholes. That's what I... that was the first thought that came into my mind. So how am I doing at our big tent philosophy?
Jasmin Singer: I love you. All right. What? What's next?
Mariann Sullivan: I also want to make clear, I feel like, I feel like I was acting like nobody's ever thought of, of a campaign like that before, which is obviously not true.
Jasmin Singer: You know, when I used to work for Farm Sanctuary like 20 years ago, people used to say to me, they would go up to me at events and they'd be like, have you told Oprah?
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, people always have ideas for what other people should do.
Jasmin Singer: Have you told Oprah?
Mariann Sullivan: Um,
Jasmin Singer: What else should we tell Oprah?
Mariann Sullivan: Speaking of famous people, Adam Schiff, one of our favorite senators because he is indeed vegan. A US senator just this is from plant-based news in the UK. They were so excited about it, they're writing about US politics. A US senator just sponsored the Plant Powered School Meals Pilot Act.
It was just sponsored by Adam Schiff. It's also been sponsored by a few other people. Um, and, uh, both, um. In, in The House and in The Senate. Unfortunately, they're all Democrats, so it's not going anywhere anytime soon. But I like that it's, it's out there and, and, uh, you know
Jasmin Singer: Yeah.
Mariann Sullivan: Hopefully at some point there will be Democrats in charge.
And this, which is, it's a very modest bill. Uh, you know, of course we'd like to see more, but it was kind of inspired by the fact that, you know, now schools are going to be allowed to offer plant-based meals. So they wanna give them some money to help them do it. And so it would, um, serve children who are eligible for free or discounted meals, um, and collaborate with, with various partners to incorporate experiential and culturally appropriate plant-based food, nutrition, or agricultural education activities related to a hundred percent plant-based food options. Can't we have that in every school? That would be such a great idea. So I am, I am, I am strongly in favor of this bill.
Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love it.
It's also, it's nice to talk about something political that's not making me wanna go...
Mariann Sullivan: It's not gonna happen. But, uh,
Jasmin Singer: Details, details.
Mariann Sullivan: Maybe someday we'll have a democracy again in the United States of America and we'll have legislation that makes sense that people will vote on. And
Jasmin Singer: Hmm.
Mariann Sullivan: maybe,
Jasmin Singer: maybe,
Maybe.
Mariann Sullivan: All right, let's not go down that road.
Jasmin Singer: Okay.
Mariann Sullivan: Um. What else do I have? Well, I've already talked about this article. I had been
Jasmin Singer: Wait, what about this Jim? The Jim Mason, quote.
Mariann Sullivan: Speaking of what we're talking about, this is a perfect quote. Jim Mason is of course one of our favorite people, the author of An Unnatural Order, and his most recent book, Madness, and I follow him on Blue Sky he usually posts pretty dark stuff.
I'm not gonna lie. He is not, he's not thrilled with the world, but he posted this thing that really, I don't know, it was good. Uh, like it made me feel good. Just a short little thing.
I'm pretty sure all this chaos and fascism is because we're progressing away from some shitty cultural traditions like racism, misogyny, et cetera. Of course, this scares the selfish, small-minded among us, and they're fighting progress with a death struggle.
And, uh, you know, that doesn't mean that we're not still in a death struggle 'cause we definitely are, but, but I liked that framing and I'm gonna try to hang onto it. So I just thought I'd mention it to you all.
Jasmin Singer: You know what I, um, I've been making these little presents, like I've been sewing these little presents and some of the things I've been making are little wallets and I wanted to put a little, like a little card or something in it. So I spent a really long time looking around on Etsy and whatnot, and I just didn't like any of the things I found.
So I decided to make little tiny card inserts and I could put them in the wallet. And I made, I made one that's a double sided has, that has quote on each side and my favorite quotes. Can you guess, do you, can you think you could guess what either of them are by the way? Murray is, Murray is whining in my lap, but he's kind of like growl whining.
He's like ahhhh.
Mariann Sullivan: Go vegan. Go vegan or go home?
Jasmin Singer: Well, I do love that one, but one of them. One of them, and I don't have them in front of me, so I hope I'm not misquoting them.
Mariann Sullivan: Talk about creating a big tent!
I know how to message that. Go vegan or go home.
Jasmin Singer: If it was something else, you'd be like, Yay, I get to go home. Um, but no one was, uh, Never doubt a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed. It's the only thing that ever has.
So that's one. And the other one is um, It does not take a majority to prevail, rather a tirate... a tirate... a tireless, irate minority keen on setting a brush fire in people's minds. Samuel Adams.
And I just was like I'm gonna put that in people's presents. I'm just gonna do it. Yeah. It's just, uh, Jim Mason's, you know, quote, made me think of that a little bit. Um, it's so, you should, you should print it out.
Mariann Sullivan: Um, I do have a few things to add here because I have a couple of other. One is actually, this is something you were given, um, by Austin Meyer, um, a filmmaker. It's called The Chicken Whisperer. Um, and it is a, it's a lovely little film. It's about 15 minutes long and I didn't really know what it was gonna be about and
Jasmin Singer: Oh, I wish I were an Austin Meyer vegan.
Mariann Sullivan: And I, um. I found out it's a, it was, it was filmed at Animal Place, but it was specifically focusing on this woman, Maria Goller, who's a caretaker there, an animal caretaker there, and, um, it's just extraordinary. She's extraordinary. She actually came to work as a caretaker at Animal Place after getting a PhD in animal behavior and ecology and working in conservation and just unable to find a job in conservation that was sufficiently focused on individual animals and not just, you know, saving species by, like, killing other species or whatever. And she just couldn't do that. So she got this job as a caretaker, and she takes care of like hundreds of chickens, like I think around 200, maybe 150, 200. She knows every single one by sight, by personality.
She has, she, she just did this, uh, she just cataloged them all. And, um, and, uh, and, knows, knows them all. And they used to the, the, another caretaker there said that it used to be that they would frequently come out in the morning, you know, their, their chickens are unwell and one of their chickens might have died during the night.
And, um, you know, that was a common occurrence. But since Maria has gotten there, that just pretty much never happens 'cause she notices when somebody's not doing well. And they might still die, but she takes them out of the flock and she has little, uh, hospice situation going because she knows all of these chickens by sight and by name.
Jasmin Singer: Wow. I love that. I will, we will put that link as well.
Mariann Sullivan: It's a beautiful little video.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah. I love that.
Mariann Sullivan: By little, I just mean I don't, I'm not diminishing it, I just mean it's short.
Yeah, it's short. Uh.
And another thing I wanted to mention, which I think is kind of unbelievable, is that Cass, I think I've mentioned before, Cass Sunstein, who is of course a pretty well known public intellectual who used to like, uh, be active vis-a-vis animals and like dropped it, uh, you know, when he wanted to go work for in the Obama administration, is back and he is writing a book called, it's not gonna be out until January of 2027. It's called Animals Matter, the Case for a Kinder World. it says, according to this, uh, description, it's gonna be published by the Princeton University Press. It says it's gonna be a pathbreaking new argument for why we must change our practices to reduce the unjustified suffering of animals.
I bet it's not gonna be that pathbreaking. I bet it's gonna be what a lot of other people say, but I bet he's gonna say it well 'cause he's good at writing and I bet it's gonna reach a lot of people for whom it will be pathbreaking because they won't have thought about these issues before.
He's really famous for his, his book Nudge, which, uh, you know, has to do with changing people's behavior by, um, not by argument, but by creating like nudges that push them in the direction of, um, of better behavior. Uh, that's, I think that's his most famous book.
Jasmin Singer: Do you, did you do a book that was, uh, edited or do you have like a chapter in a book that was edited by him?
Mariann Sullivan: Yes. The, the chapter that David Wolfson and I wrote like 25 years ago,
Jasmin Singer: Hmm.
Mariann Sullivan: Uh, called Foxes in the Hen House, which is about basically about cruelty laws and you know, about, about farmed animals and how the law applies to them was published in a book that was, that was edited by Cass Sunstein and Martha Nusbaum.
So
Jasmin Singer: That's exciting. You are fancy. You're very fancy. Uh, all right. That, that sounds really good, but it doesn't come out for a while. When did you say it comes out?
Mariann Sullivan: Not until January of next year.
Jasmin Singer: Oh. Hmm. Okay.
Mariann Sullivan: Like books take so long.
I mean, I think it's done.
Jasmin Singer: I know.
Mariann Sullivan: Why can't they just put it out?
Jasmin Singer: I know.
Mariann Sullivan: Annoying.
Jasmin Singer: I know. Alright, well, I think we're done too. Uh, this has been enlightening. I, I have.
Mariann Sullivan: A little all over the place, but that's okay.
Jasmin Singer: That's okay. Uh, it keep keeps things interesting.
Don't forget, speaking of all over the place, that Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays, the long form interview on Fridays and bonus for Flock members comes out on Monday. Uh, and thank you for tuning in. Thank you to Vicki Beechler for her work producing this, and thank you to you for your work in supporting this.
We'll talk to you next time.
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