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App not listed? Try this RSS linkIn this episode of The Hen Report, Jasmin Singer and Mariann Sullivan delve into the psychological barriers to activism and the importance of community action for animal rights. They discuss a thought-provoking YouTube video that explores feelings of powerlessness and how to overcome them. The conversation highlights the role of community and small actions in creating significant change for animals.
This episode explores:
- A discussion on feelings of helplessness in activism and how community action can combat this.
- Insights from a Barry’s Economics video on the psychology of powerlessness and its relevance to animal rights.
- The importance of agency and small actions in advocacy work.
- Recent positive developments in vegan products, including IKEA’s and Starbucks’ new vegan offerings.
- A call to action for lawyers interested in teaching animal law through a workshop at Oklahoma City University.
RESOURCES
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- There Is Reason For Hope. Here’s The Proof – Barry’s Economics
- IKEA And Tiny Chef Launch New Vegan-Friendly Falafel Balls
- Widespread public support and pluralistic ignorance associated with United States Animal Protection Policy
- The ‘vegan but bacon’ principle is here. Could it help us achieve our goals?
- Law Lecturers’ Workshops
- Boycott (Cow’s) Milk Let’s get these babies back with their mamas.
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INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Jasmin Singer: Welcome to The Hen Report. This is Jasmin Singer.
Mariann Sullivan: This is Mariann Sullivan.
Jasmin Singer: Quick reminder, Our Hen House podcasts, our whole universe, Rising Anxieties, comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays, the long form interview on Fridays, and the bonus content for flock members comes out on Mondays. We're on YouTube. We're on all of the podcasts catchers.
Hit subscribe, hit like, comment, and share the love with your friends. Alright, we have a lot to discuss today. First of all, how are you doing?
Mariann Sullivan: Me?
Jasmin Singer: Yeah, you.
Mariann Sullivan: Uh, I don't know. I, I could go on, but you know, you probably don't want me to. I'm fine.
Jasmin Singer: All right. Okay.
Mariann Sullivan: Sort of, you know, the world is, is, is in, is is in significant trouble and I never know exactly... I don't wanna go there on this podcast, you know, the war and all of that.
Jasmin Singer: Right.
Mariann Sullivan: All of that. Like, I already sound like an asshole talking about it, so, so I also don't wanna just ignore it and pretend like we're living in, you know, this, this stable universe, but, so yeah, you asked,
Jasmin Singer: Okay, why don't we, do you wanna talk about this YouTube video first?
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. All right, this is this video I came across on YouTube, and it's from a, uh, a, a channel called Barry's Economics. It's British. Doesn't have anything to do with animals. Um. But I just thought he, he's like this British comedian, and even though he is a he, he does, he talks about social, social, um, science stuff and about politics, and he's talking a lot about how disastrous the politics are right now.
But I thought in this particular one, it was really applicable to animal rights, even though it has nothing to do with animals. Well, actually, the only thing it has to do with animals is that it uses animal research, but he does highly disapprove of that, so I think it's not too horrible. He's Barry. Barry Economics. The name of the video is either There is Reason for Hope, Here's the Proof or Why Your brain thinks You're Powerless, You're Not. A lot of people read retitle their YouTube videos to reach different audiences.
Jasmin Singer: Hmm.
Mariann Sullivan: interesting. We don't do that. I wonder if we should. Anyway, he's talking about the social science, about, uh, feelings of powerlessness. Already, It seemed a lot about animal rights, feelings of like, there's nothing you can do to change this. That the problem is hugely overwhelming. You're just one person. There's just nothing you can do. And there was science a while back about learned helplessness, which I've certainly heard of.
And this is what was the, the dog experiments that, um, when you, the theory was that when you're accustomed to not being able to escape, you stop trying. But there's more recent science that actually shows that that kind of passivity is not even a learned human characteristic, it's a default human characteristic. Like unless you are taught a way to be effective or to get what you want. tend to not try. I
Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.
Mariann Sullivan: There's a lot to overcome psychologically, and he makes the point, which I think is, um, is very valid. Like very privileged people learn how to control their environment very young. They have loads of control over their environment and they go through life thinking that they have power and you know, a lot of most other people don't.
Um. So the antidote to feeling overwhelmed according to him is not more information. This seems hugely important for us because a lot of what we do is just tell people how bad it is for animals. We give them more information, and that's totally valid because they don't have this information. But, but he makes the point that the thing that helps you not be overwhelmed is not to get more information, even though you may need the information, it's an experience of control. And, and when, when the problem is too big to even for us to even think about or to understand, the brain just shuts down. But that doesn't mean you don't have control.
Jasmin Singer: You're trying to, you're trying to pass off hopelessness, as you know, saying I'm just rational or something like that. Does that...?
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. I mean, it's just your, your brain's default system. Like if it's like, if it seems hopeless, if you can't really understand the scope of the problem, it seems hopeless. So you just stop trying. 'cause I mean, it seems like an evolutionary sensible thing to do, to stop trying to do things that you can't do.
But we're wrong that we can't do it because, because, um, there... because the way change happens, and we've all heard this before, he talks both about tipping points, which he identifies as 25%. I've always heard before it was 10% and he identifies as, as 25%. But says that even with dramatic change in a very strongly held social norm, once it's hits 25%, that's it. Um, it changes like, and uh, below 25%, it doesn't, everybody thinks you're crazy. All right, so that's one factor. And the
Jasmin Singer: But wait! Does that, that makes me even more hopeless because 10%
Mariann Sullivan: Because we're so far from 25%?
Jasmin Singer: seemed like.
Mariann Sullivan: It is, it is what it is. But the other thing he's saying is that in the first place, you don't know how big this group is. You will never know if you were the one to tip it. We don't, we can't see this until it happens. So it might be bigger than we think. And the other thing is that the antidote to this feeling of helplessness, which is not a good way to live your life, is um, is community. Sounds trite, but you know, there you are.
And, and to do something, not to scroll. I mean, scrolling is fine for information if you need information, but you need to do something, you need to do it with, preferably with other people. I mean, this is kind of obvious, but he's, he's much more compelling than I am.
Do something that feels embarrassingly small, um, compared to the scale of the problem, which everything we do is embarrassingly small compared to the scale of the problem, and, and it will have more of an impact than you can understand. Our social networks are very powerful and we always reach more people than we think we do. I think that's really true.
Jasmin Singer: What I found interesting about this, and by the way, I love that you picked this video out that has nothing to do with animal rights and like made it about animal rights in this, what I think is a really insightful way.
What I found interesting about it is that like, you know, for animal advocacy, the, the messages that we would give ourselves, you know, if we're feeling hopeless, even if we're not identifying it as hopeless, is, you know, everyone eats meat or factory farming is just so big or people don't care and nothing changes, which are probably all sentences I've said in the last week 'cause I've been in a place.
But the, the thing that I found most interesting about this video is that despair or hopelessness is understandable, but it's not neutral. It, it it actually works for the system. So if you are feeling powerless, you disengage and if you disengage, nothing changes. And then your hopelessness gets confirmed, even though it's the hopelessness that kind of created the outcome, if that makes sense.
So like.
Mariann Sullivan: The fact that the hopelessness is kind of a default human characteristic. So you have to do something to overcome that hopelessness. And I mean, and like specifically what you have to do is you have to do something.
Jasmin Singer: So like.
Mariann Sullivan: Whatever it is, whatever it is, it has to be action to overcome that hopelessness because you never know what impact you are having.
Jasmin Singer: When you think about animal agriculture, where do you see that kind of helplessness getting most reinforced? Is it media or social media or social stuff? Is it the way humane, quote unquote humane marketing works?
Mariann Sullivan: Like
just everything,
Jasmin Singer: The sheer scale.
Mariann Sullivan: The fact that we tell people who are good people and they don't change the fact that nothing we do seems to change anything. The fact that it keeps getting bigger and bigger no matter how hard we fight. I mean, there are a million reasons to be hopeless, but there's always the one reason, that we're right and kind of everybody agrees with us that we shouldn't do this to animals, to be hopeful. And, but you don't have to worry.
Like I think one of the great things about this is you don't have to worry about whether you're hopeful or hopeless. What you have to do is do something. It'll just, even if it doesn't, even if you never see the change happen, it just makes your life better.
Jasmin Singer: So it's about like practicality and like kind of small, like small little actions.
Mariann Sullivan: Well Well probably small, but,
Jasmin Singer: Well, I, I guess the reason I'm saying small is because I think that what can be overwhelming, especially for new vegans or new activists, is thinking that the most important kind of action is the biggest kind of action.
And I think that this video is basically saying the goal is agency. Does that sound right? I mean it.
Mariann Sullivan: The goal is change, but the way there is agency, and agency can be, I mean, all we can think of is small things to do, like. Like, you know, and I, I always say somebody should make me empress, but nobody is going to. So there's not that many big things I can do, but I can do small things and, and, uh, anyway,
Jasmin Singer: I wait, can I just ask you a question?
Mariann Sullivan: I'm afraid we're I'm afraid we're going on too long about it!
Jasmin Singer: I know, but I just have a quick question. It's totally selfish because it's a, this is where I've... I have been feeling, I have been doing both of these things lately. I have been feeling like hopeless and I have also been doing things anyway. And I guess what I'm ask, what I wanna ask you is, are those things, you know, kind of canceling each other out?
Is, is my hopelessness canceling out the fact that I'm, I'm taking.
Mariann Sullivan: It doesn't matter if you're hopeless and anyway, you're not hopeless because if you were hopeless, you wouldn't be doing anything.
Jasmin Singer: Okay. All right.
Mariann Sullivan: But even if you feel hopeless, do something and, and, and, and that's the point of the video. I mean, you know, I don't know, watch the video 'cause he says this all much better than I have managed to do.
Jasmin Singer: Okay.
Mariann Sullivan: Though it's not about animals. And it does cite animal research,
Jasmin Singer: Alright.
Mariann Sullivan: Which he disapproves of.
Jasmin Singer: Well that's nice.
Mariann Sullivan: Well, he didn't do the research.
Jasmin Singer: I understand. I understand. Um, I, yeah. Okay. This is thoughtful. I like it and it, it's helping to, it's helping to shift something in me that I have needed to shift lately. So I appreciate that.
Alright. And you have some, a little bit of good news as well to share.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, the chef. Where's this article? I, I think you had sent me this a while back and I forgot to mention it. Um, IKEA and Tiny Chef launched new vegan friendly falafel balls. Now
Jasmin Singer: Where?
Mariann Sullivan: Ikea.
Jasmin Singer: Ikea. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mariann Sullivan: I have had many falafels and many really, we had a spectacular falafel just last week at a Turkish restaurant by the lake. And I'm not saying these are gonna be as good and, but you know, it's always exciting to hear a major retailer, even though they're not a
Jasmin Singer: Well, but they do already had...
Mariann Sullivan: vegan. And I'm very, very always happy to see Tiny Chef.
Jasmin Singer: Yes, but IKEA already had the meatless meatballs. I mean I'm So, bring on more. I love that. That they're making a choice to bring on more and Yeah, tiny chef is like iconic.
Mariann Sullivan: Served with vegan aoili and a side dish of couscous with mixed vegetables.
Jasmin Singer: Tiny Chef.
Mariann Sullivan: The only IKEA near us is across the border.
Jasmin Singer: No, that's not true. One opened in Syracuse.
Mariann Sullivan: Oh yeah.
Jasmin Singer: A little one, but that's maybe 'cause
Mariann Sullivan: But they might not have a cafeteria.
Jasmin Singer: Well, we'll have to go and find out.
Mariann Sullivan: This is probably not something that's of interest to that many people listening.
Jasmin Singer: Wait. I do wanna say though, when we went to that Turkish restaurant by the lake, by which you mean Lake Ontario. The, it was just such good food. It was like phenomenal. However...
Mariann Sullivan: It was just falafel.
Jasmin Singer: How, however, they said that the, the, that the pita wasn't vegan and you happened to have bread in your car 'cause we had just stopped at a farmer's market and so you brought it inside.
You went in your car. I was embarrassed at first and then I was like, ah, who cares?
Mariann Sullivan: They should be embarrassed that their pita wasn't vegan.
Anyway, they gave us all these extra vegetables, which was actually better than my bread.
Jasmin Singer: No, it's not, your bread was better.
Mariann Sullivan: They had very, very little vegan food, but the food they did have was so delicious.
Jasmin Singer: Mm.
Mariann Sullivan: I'd never had Turkish falafel before, it had totally different spices in it.
Jasmin Singer: Do you remember when we went to Basel, Switzerland and there was a huge Turkish population there and we went to a vegan Turkish restaurant?
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.
They had that like, that... it was, it, it...
Jasmin Singer: I know.
Mariann Sullivan: It was like a fruit roll up. Only it was, uh,
Jasmin Singer: A bean, like a lentil kind of. Yeah. It was so good. Alright, what else do you have in terms of good news?
Mariann Sullivan: Right. Let me see. I, I think, yeah, the falafel was good news. All right. I wanted to do, um...
Jasmin Singer: Oh, wait, wait, wait. Hang on. Starbucks now has a falafel sandwich that's vegan. I just wanted to say that because yeah,
Mariann Sullivan: Alright.
Jasmin Singer: I saw it...
Mariann Sullivan: i, I can't, like, I've never lived in a place where you had to like resort to things like Ikea or Starbucks to get falafel.
Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.
Mariann Sullivan: I'd much rather go to a Middle Eastern place, but you know, in a pinch.
Jasmin Singer: Sure. It's there for a reason.
Mariann Sullivan: I mean, there's good falafel and bad falafel. I'm not saying there isn't, but still it's all pretty good.
Jasmin Singer: Totes.
Mariann Sullivan: Alright. I just wanted to, this is also something you sent to me, um, it's about this, this research, a nationally representative survey of 2074 US adults found widespread support for animal protection policies across multiple categories, including animals used in research, zoos and aquariums and food.
The average respondent ranked reducing animal suffering as moderately to highly important, yet believed others cared far less. I think this is so interesting that I, I know... it was Crystal Heath who, who posted this, though it's not her research. Um, and uh, well, we'll post a link to it and, uh, it's known as pluralistic ignorance and it benefits corporate systems that rely on weak oversight and low public visibility.
I'm not sure what exactly what that means, but, but the point is, is that we think people don't care about animals as much as they do, and people really do. The study also found overwhelming support for specific policies, including space requirements for pigs, expanded wildlife cruelty laws, and federal protections even though people believe those views were unpopular.
We're all like wandering around thinking we're the only people who care about animals.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah, but okay. Some people care about animals in such a weird, oppressive way.
Mariann Sullivan: Totally,
Jasmin Singer: I mean, most people,
Mariann Sullivan: but that's, you know, that's something that you can work on. They don't get it.
Jasmin Singer: You know, I was getting my eyebrows, uh, my microblading done the annual retouch, you know, it's like a tattoo on your eyebrows basically. And the woman who was doing it, who's... she says she's vegan. I think she might be like mostly vegan, but she really cares. She says she cares a lot. Like she talks to me a lot about animal rights.
She also breeds a particular type of cat.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah,
Jasmin Singer: She asked me if, I think she's, she said the words, do you think I'm a horrible person for breeding cats? And it's kind of like,
Mariann Sullivan: She just, she's gotta dare you to say, No, of course not. People always want, uh, absolution.
Jasmin Singer: I guess what I'm saying is she really cares about animals. I, I don't know, like, am I being too?
Mariann Sullivan: I'm not saying it's an obvious fix, I'm just saying that it is easier to change the world if the world consists of people who care about animals but are doing stupid things and think that there's no way out of this, and they're the only one that cares about animals, than it is to fix the world if nobody cares about animals.
I mean, that's a huge big step. The fact that people, more people care and care more than we understand is really important to remember. Then it's just a matter of like, you know, information and, and, and making it more popular... Well, all the things that we talk about all the time that we don't know exactly what they are, but it is still a huge step that they actually care and they think nobody else does. They think they're different.
Jasmin Singer: I mean, there's this saying in like certain 12 step circles that's, um, like you're not terminally unique. 'Cause like, uh, so many people just think that they're going into, as they say, the rooms with this story that like has never happened to anyone.
Mariann Sullivan: It's like psychologists, they have like three things to say and they say it to everybody 'cause it fits everybody.
Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm. Right. So, you know, it is a good reminder. I mean, like, the thing is sometimes I'll be driving past, I don't know, a big mall or something, and there's like thousands of cars in the parking lot, and I'm always like, who are these people? Like, and, and, and it's, it's such a weird way of saying like, there's just so many goddamn people.
Like there's so, there's so many goddam pe... let's say that parking lot had a thousand cars in it.
Mariann Sullivan: Where is this going?
is this?
Jasmin Singer: It's possible a hundred people there are vegan, like imagine saying.
Mariann Sullivan: You're saying that, you're saying that the question is, is somebody vegan and I'm saying is the que the first question is, do people care about animals? And I think that one of the reasons that people don't change their habits, and this is something I say all the time 'cause it's so hard to figure out why people don't go vegan if they care about animals.
So you figure they don't care about animals. But I think that the reason, people don't wanna be different, and people think it's a waste of time for them to go vegan because the problem is so huge, which brings us right back
Jasmin Singer: Back to the thing we were talking about. I, I hear you.
Mariann Sullivan: We have to convince people that they have agency, that what they do matters.
But we, for most of them, apparently, we don't have to convince them that animals matter. They already know that.
Jasmin Singer: But so with my eyebrow girl, like I mean, I said I think that people are complex and I think that you, you can look at the whole of a person and, and, and, and not necessarily pull out one thing that they do. That was kind of my answer, and she, that was absolution enough for her. But the thing is, hearkening
Mariann Sullivan: I would have taken that as absolution myself.
Jasmin Singer: Hearkening back to last week's conversation about how we need,
Mariann Sullivan: You could say, of course, I don't think you're a horrible person. I think people are complicated, but I think that's a horrible thing to do.
Jasmin Singer: Well, hang on. Hearkening back to last week's conversation about.
Mariann Sullivan: She was doing her eyebrows at the moment, so
Jasmin Singer: About the bigger tent and how we need a bigger tent for veganism. I wanted her to be in the tent. She, for whatever reason, feels like she needs to breed Maine Coons. I think it's, you could probably imagine the many things I think about that. However, she's also like advocating for veganism to her clients in many ways, and I.
Mariann Sullivan: I disagree. I disagree. I
Jasmin Singer: I'm not, I'm not giving absolution. I'm saying that yes, it's a really bad thing that is directly harming animals because it's directly harming...
Mariann Sullivan: Did you say that to her?
Jasmin Singer: No, I, but I've,
Mariann Sullivan: absolution.
Jasmin Singer: but I was trying to bring her into the tent and I didn't.
Mariann Sullivan: that's not the way you bring people into the tent.
Jasmin Singer: How do you know how to bring people into the tent?
Mariann Sullivan: getting, I'm offering my opinions here.
Jasmin Singer: I know, but I'm saying you don't know.
Mariann Sullivan: I'm not speaking from on high. I am, we are talking and I'm offering what my opinion is and I don't think that's the way you bring people into the tent.
Jasmin Singer: I do.
Mariann Sullivan: Would do. Like, or maybe it is what I would do because, you know, sometimes I do things that I don't think is the right way forward, but like thinking about it, and I don't think that's the right way forward. I don't think you bring people into the tent by saying, yeah, it's okay to do this one.
Jasmin Singer: I didn't say that.
Mariann Sullivan: It's fine to say something like, I think we're probably never gonna agree on, on breeding cats, but I think we can both agree on, on how, um, important it is to be vegan.
Jasmin Singer: But how is that, I mean, that's semantics that you're discussing. I feel like that's more or less
Mariann Sullivan: Semantics are hugely important here.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah, that's true.
Mariann Sullivan: That actually brings me to the, something I want sort of wanted to talk about, but sort of didn't wanna talk about. And that's this Substack that I wrote, which I haven't published because I get so nervous when I write a Substack.
Jasmin Singer: I, liked it. I, I read it on the back end of it.
Mariann Sullivan: You didn't say you loved it. You said
Jasmin Singer: You know what? I knew you were gonna say that. I knew you were gonna say, and then, and then when I tell you that I love something, you say, I'm blowing smoke up your ass.
Mariann Sullivan: Not true. I never say that.
Jasmin Singer: Well, you don't say those words, but you say that I, I think everything you do is amazing.
And I do, but I think some things are more amazing than others. And
Mariann Sullivan: Right. Whatever.
Jasmin Singer: Why aren't you publishing this?
Mariann Sullivan: It's about an idea I had for a campaign, and I do start out by admitting that it's extremely annoying when you go to animal rights organization meetings and, and people in the, in the audience have all these ideas for what organizations should do. 'Cause they don't have an organization, they don't have to do it.
So, but I wrote it, you know, 'cause I was thinking about it and it's about boycotting milk and, you know, we can link to it if I ever publish it. And, and, uh, why I chose this particular idea. But I think that one way to create a bigger tent is to get people to agree about something. And one of the, 'cause one of the problems we have is that people don't wanna go vegan. We know that. We're not sure as to all of the reasons, but we, we know that that's a really big lift for most people. And so my goal was to write it in a way that anybody who's a campaigner, like in the position of me who's vegan and wants to ask people, don't feel like they're betraying their principles by making this ask.
I think sometimes people do feel that way about advocating for cage-free eggs. it's very hard to advocate for cage-free eggs without implying that it's okay to eat cage-free eggs and nobody wants to do that. But I think with language, by parsing the language, I think you, everybody can be okay. You don't have to tell people they have to go vegan.
You could tell people I'd love it if you went vegan, but, um, but for now we're asking everybody to do this. But you also don't have to say it's okay to drink milk as long as they don't take, it's this, it's specifically around the idea that they take the babies away from their mothers. Um, and so, so I forget what I was gonna say, but, but I just think that you can word it in a way that is okay with the person saying it, iE me, um, and, and, and just asking for a limited thing without saying that it's okay to then just go and drink milk if they didn't take the, the babies away from the mothers. Um, and it would, it's also a way of, of informing people of how terrible it is. Terrible dairy is. 'cause You get to spell it out.
It was, it was, it's not really a campaign... I mean, it's, it was a thought exercise that I thought I would go through because I'm trying to think about this question of how do we, how do we, uh, bring people in without asking them to be vegan, without saying, oh, oh yeah, you don't have to be vegan.
Jasmin Singer: Well, I have a couple thoughts on this. First of all, you're reminding me very much of in 2008 when I traveled through California with, um, Farm Sanctuary, uh, for the Prop two campaign. And it was a welfare campaign and we were traveling with HSUS, which is what it was called at the time. And, um, Farm Sanctuary was never saying bigger cages, full stop.
Farm Sanctuary was always saying,
Mariann Sullivan: They're very careful about this. A
Jasmin Singer: well,
Mariann Sullivan: are, they, don't they? They, they're careful about their speech.
Jasmin Singer: Farm Sanctuary was saying bigger cages and go vegan. Like, here's a Go Vegan booklet, da da da da da. HSUS was saying bigger cages. It, it also makes me think of this, uh. I, I wanna get back to your Substack in a second, but it, it does make me think of this opinion piece that was published in The Guardian this past week that we will also link to, and it's by Polly Hudson, and it's called the Vegan but Bacon Principle is here, could it help us achieve our goals?
And it's pretty tongue...
Mariann Sullivan: This reminds me so much of something you used to say when we used to give talks.
Jasmin Singer: Oh, that people can't go vegan because their grandmother makes a brisket on the holidays. And I would
Mariann Sullivan: would always
Jasmin Singer: say, so eat the brisket.
Mariann Sullivan: Getting in your way,
Jasmin Singer: Eat the brisket. Right. Which, which of course by the time the holidays roll around, they won't eat it. They'll find a vegan version of it, I'm sure. But even if they didn't, yeah, don't let that stop you.
This article is kind of.
Mariann Sullivan: Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Jasmin Singer: Right. This article is, is is cheeky. It's, and it's, I I really thought that the influencer that the author was talking about was brilliant and that the woman who wrote this story was off in her, in, in her take on it. So basically she was saying that, um, a plant-based creator called Liz, and uh, I'm trying to find Liz's full name here, um, tr Trail Mix Liz is her TikTok handle. That this, that this person apparently replied to something that someone said who said they would join her in veganism if it weren't, uh, for, for one thing, you know? And, and so Liz said, so just go vegan except for bacon. If that's your thing, do it. And, um, this article or this, this video went viral.
It had like 3 million views or more at this point. And, um, a lot of people shared that they don't eat animal products 95% of the time, or maybe only at home, or they would have like a hall pass item. And so the author of this article was basically saying, what's next? Virgin, but sex and, um, she was being very critical of Liz and
Mariann Sullivan: There are a lot of people who are virgins, but you know, it doesn't mean they haven't had sex. In their heads they're virgins. Anyway, I digress.
Jasmin Singer: Wow. Yeah, that was that. Yes, you do. Um. So someone, so there was a comment in the that, that the article pulls out saying half-assing is the stepping stone to whole assing. And I, I guess I just sort of feel like to the point of a bigger tent, we need the vegan but bacon people. I'm not saying that I agree with it. I think it's stupid, but like that's 'cause I love being vegan and I don't think animals should be exploited for any reason whatsoever.
But it also makes me think of the microblading person if she wants to be vegan, except for breeding cats. I would rather that than not.
Mariann Sullivan: So I, I mean, I totally agree with you. Um, you know, and it does require for the advocate, for the influencer to use their speech carefully, but we're all smart people. We can, because we're vegan and we can manage to do that. In the proposal I was making, it's kind of the same deal. It's not saying you have to be vegan, but it's actually also using that for a campaign that,
Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.
Mariann Sullivan: That creating this boycott milk that comes from cows who have their babies taken away from them, suggesting that there should be, they should have them for at least six months, it's something like everybody, it's something like 75% of people agree that it's bad to take. I mean, people love cows, so, so it's using it to advocate for that boycott, which would, you know, have to be organized. It's not like that's something I could actually do myself. It would have to be organized and would probably have to lead to legislation, but it's using it so that it's not only forgiving or, you know, not forgiving, that's the wrong word. See, that's exactly, I'm gonna make, that's the wrong word. Not only avoiding the whole question of whether everybody has to be vegan and not asking that question. It's not only just avoiding that, it's actually using it for for a purpose. And let's face it, if they had to keep the calves with their mothers for six months, that's the end of dairy, I mean.
Jasmin Singer: Totes. I mean, I, I, I really liked your Substack. I, I'm sad that you haven't published it yet. Uh, I think,
Mariann Sullivan: I'll, I'll publish it. I keep thinking of other questions I should, I should put.
Jasmin Singer: There's.
Mariann Sullivan: I wrote it as a, um, frequently asked questions list.
Jasmin Singer: There was something funny in it that I know you're not gonna totally get, 'cause you haven't seen Pluribus, which we, I've talked about, but in Pluribus, because they kind of, everyone becomes one consciousness and it is sort of a vegan consciousness, which we've talked about in the past. Anyone who you talk to who has this consciousness, instead of using the word I, they say we.
And so you'll be talking to someone and be like, um. Do you know, do, do you wanna have a, a meal with me? And, and the person who replied would be, we did just eat. But, and it, it was funny to me because in your FAQs you did say, we don't believe that.
Mariann Sullivan: I was kind of writing it as if it was coming from an organization,
Jasmin Singer: I know.
Mariann Sullivan: It wasn't totally me being insane.
Jasmin Singer: No, I know that
Mariann Sullivan: Using the royal we.
Jasmin Singer: I, I just as Pluribus has like seeped its way into my consciousness, uh, ironically.
Um, and so that, that made me think of it. I think this is all really interesting. I mean, I think that like, this is the kind of thing we should be weighing and talking about, and I think that the end of the day it, the goal does need to be that bigger tent. I mean, I want the goal to be full on veganism.
Mariann Sullivan: Well, the goal is full on veganism. The stepping stone
Jasmin Singer: is the bigger tent. Yeah.
Mariann Sullivan: I did want to do one, one, um, announcement before
Jasmin Singer: Sure. Go for it.
Mariann Sullivan: This is about this thing that's, um, taking place in Oklahoma. It's, this is for lawyers and it's specifically for lawyers who are interested in teaching, um, animal law, which I know isn't everybody out there, but I really wanted to get this out there because they are looking for, um, signups.
And this is the coolest thing, it's the people from Cambridge. Um, you know, because Cambridge has the Center for Animal Rights Law and they're coming, um, to Oklahoma, Oklahoma City University from, uh, July 13th to 17th. And, and, uh, they're going to be doing a workshop. It's, it, it's paid for, um, I mean, it's free.
I, I think you, I think you still have to cover your, your travel costs, but it's only 12 people. And I've heard this workshop is terrific and we have talked about it on the Animal Law Podcast, if you wanna know more about it. And, uh, I just, uh, they've just extended the, um, application deadline to, to March 20th.
I highly encourage anybody who's interested to look into this, 'cause I think it's just an amazing offer. I mean, you know, Oklahoma in July is probably lovely. Um, I'm sure it's air conditioned, and it maybe it's not that hot in Oklahoma. What do I know? Uh, but I bet you meet really, really nice people and, and it's a great experience and you learn how to teach animal law, which everybody should be doing. Well, not everybody, but you know, if you're a lawyer, you should be doing, 'cause it's really not that hard to get, to get, um, a gig as an adjunct professor, uh, at your local law school because there aren't that many people who wanna do this. And if you have this, this certificate behind you, it would, uh, really make it a slam dunk.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah.
Mariann Sullivan: wanted to, I just wanted to add that I wanted to, um, announce it on the Animal Law Podcast, but I don't think there's time before March 20th, so I'm saying it now.
Jasmin Singer: Cool. We'll link to all of that and thank you so much for tuning in. Don't forget that we have another episode the Our Hen House interview is tomorrow. Uh, and, and thank you for those of you who are flock members. If you wanna join us in the Flock membership, we do have a lot of fun. ourhenhouse.org/support.
And there are multiple ways of supporting Our Hen House. If you can't do it that way, like this episode, leave a comment. Remember us in your estate planning, that just took a turn. And thank you. We'll talk to you soon.
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