The Hen Report: “Every Little Drip Drop” | Exploring Animal Advocacy and Real-Life Inspiration

Join Jasmin Singer and Mariann Sullivan in this engaging episode of The Hen Report as they delve into the latest in animal rights. From a review of the new Pixar film Hoppers to exploring the idea of existential welfare campaigns, this episode is packed with activism insight. They also discuss whether it’s actually true that vegans are widely disliked and the importance of maintaining a positive outlook in our advocacy.

This episode explores:

• A critical review of Pixar’s Hoppers and its portrayal of animal rights activism.
• The significance of humane education in fostering empathy for animals.
• Debunking the trope that vegans are universally disliked.
• The potential of existential welfarism campaigns in animal advocacy.
• Exciting announcements and resources from the animal rights community.

RESOURCES

• • • • • Laura Clery on Facebook
        • Pluralistic Ignorance and the Animal Protection Movement
        • My Dog is My Home 2026 Conference
        • Our Hen House Episode 792 w/ Christine Kim
        • Ladybird Animal Sanctuary
        • All Creatures Rescue
        • Add Your Voice: The Nature Record National Assessment
        • Nature Report, Killed by Trump, Is Released Independently
        • Is factory farming humanity’s biggest crime?
  •  

    INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

    Jasmin Singer: Welcome to The Hen Report. This is Jasmin Singer.

    Mariann Sullivan: This is Mariann Sullivan.

    Jasmin Singer: And this is part of Our Hen House per usual.

    Show More Transcript

    Our Hen House is many different episodes that come out throughout the week. Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays. The long form interview on Fridays and bonus for Flock members comes out on Mondays.

    We are on YouTube. We're on all of the pod catchers. So hit subscribe, hit like, comment wherever you listen, and thanks so much for being here. So Mariann, uh, I wanted to check in with you about this like totally bizarre thing that we did in the middle of a weekday, which is go to the movies

    Mariann Sullivan: Right. I think I mentioned this on Rising Anxieties. That we were going to go to the movies this week and we were going to see what I, what I refer to as Hoopers.

    Jasmin Singer: Isn't it Hoppers? Yeah. Hoppers is a Pixar movie that just came out and you were so excited when you saw that this was out and, and so we went. We saw

    Mariann Sullivan: Well, I love a cartoon and pretty seriously animal rightsy.

    Jasmin Singer: So is it, is the question. That's what I wanted to discuss with you because I, you know, I didn't read too much about it before we went and I knew that there were beavers in it and you know, I love a beaver.

    Mariann Sullivan: Who doesn't love a beaver?

    Jasmin Singer: Who doesn't love a beaver? And this was about an animal rights oriented girl, we'll say, who becomes like a 19-year-old, which is most of the film, film takes place while she's around 19.

    And she's trying to save a, like a, a, a nature preserve, which is going to be destroyed to become a highway. And as part of this, she sort of like stumbles upon this experiment that one of her professors is doing where they're able to like create a robotic version of the animals.

    Mariann Sullivan: Don't do spoilers.

    Jasmin Singer: Right. Well, I don't think that was too much of a spoiler, but she's able to communicate.

    Mariann Sullivan: Further it, it might.

    Jasmin Singer: She's able to communicate. She's able to more or less pretend she is also one of these little animals and, and communicate with them directly. So what did you think?

    Mariann Sullivan: I was disappointed. I did think it was a good movie. Um, it just, I, and I've been trying to figure out, ever since I watched it, why it kind of left me cold. It was, I mean, I thought it was an animal rights movie. I think it was. It's legitimately, its heart was in the right place, or you know, basically the right place.

    It's totally on the side of the animals. The heroine was charming, cared passionately about animals. She was basically an animal rights activist. They didn't mention food, but that's fine. I understand. Um, and, and yet you and I both came out and were like, it was good. And I was, you were the one who brought up, Well, there was something missing from it or different to it than movies. Like, well, you mentioned Bambi, but since I haven't seen Bambi since I was six, uh, which was a while ago, I wasn't thinking that of that so much, but Chicken Run, one of my very favorite movies ever. Like hilarious, beautiful, charming, totally on the side of the chickens. And it's not because that was about chickens and this was about wildlife. The, the animals, you know, struck, struck my heart just as much.

    Jasmin Singer: Oh yeah.

    Mariann Sullivan: I, I've try, I've been trying to think of what it is, and it was just a little, uh, there was a lot, maybe a little too much going on and, and it, like, it kind of presented itself, as you pointed out, as sciency. Like, like this was a real opportunity even though it was a cartoon and obviously it's a fantasy. And obviously Chicken Run is a total fantasy 'cause the chickens are like, you know, dressing up in outfits and chatting with each other. And, uh, this was kind of presented itself as sciency with this whole experiment.

    And then the, the animals didn't behave, I mean, they behaved a little, I, I understand that they did a lot of research into what beavers actually do. There was some really cute stuff around that, like their enthusiasm for building a dam, like how it was just their favorite thing in the world to do 'cause they're beavers. Um, but all in all the animal behavior was not like real animals. And there was just something, I mean, there was a lot of weird things and there was just something about it that just left me cold. I, I don't, I don't know. I feel a little bad about it.

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: Uh, I highly recommend it 'cause I think it's getting great reviews and I'm probably the only person other than you who was like, I don't know. Oh, I think it's gonna be a huge tool to, to, for people to speak about animals and like, loads of people are gonna see it. If you have kids in your life, loads of kids are going to see it. It's an opportunity to talk about these issues. It's really sympathetic to the animals, really sympathetic. It just, it, it got too, maybe it got too complicated. And there was a lot of stuff about the way the animals responded. Maybe I know too much. I think that might be it. The way the animals responded to their habitat being destroyed, that wasn't anything like how animals respond to their habitat being destroyed and you know, really fell short for me. Bambi was more accurate on that. You know how Bambi's mother responded to her habitat being destroyed? She got killed. That's why I haven't seen it since I was six 'cause it's too upsetting. Yeah, I mean, that was really authentic. That really had to do with like the horrors that befall, I think Bambi might be one of the most influential animal themed movies there's ever been. Um, and this was, I don't know, it was, it wasn't real enough.

    I don't know. I do recommend seeing it. It's pa the, the passion for for animals is real. And then it's interesting to think about. Does it, does it hit right? Does it hit wrong? It's interesting to talk about with other people.

    Jasmin Singer: Did you, uh, when they showed the spider, did you think of Charlotte? Because I immediately, it was like,

    Mariann Sullivan: Did not, but Charlotte's Web was not a big part of my life.

    I know of it. I didn't read it as a child, probably because, because I knew Charlotte. I never read anything or saw anything in which I knew that the animal was gonna die.

    Jasmin Singer: I think Charlotte,

    Mariann Sullivan: Web.

    Jasmin Singer: I think maybe Charlotte came back to life in the in, or maybe this was like Charlotte's great-great-great, great, great, great, great, great times. Infinity grandchild or something. Uh, yeah,

    Mariann Sullivan: The, the spider was a great character.

    Jasmin Singer: I mean, this is like not a, this is not a great discussion point for a podcast to say like, I can't totally nail down why I didn't, why there was something amiss for me. But I do, you know, I do think that that there was like an element of just like, for lack of a better word, sci-fi or something that took you out of, took you out of like the realistic possibilities here. And obviously Chicken Run is about like a bunch of chickens that, um, rebel and, you know, get out before they get killed.

    Uh, and so it's like they're all fake, but...

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, it's obviously ridiculous. I mean, that's not portraying real chickens, so it's not that that makes the difference.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, but there was something about it that felt a little more, like you could kind of wrap your head around it.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, if chickens were people, that's exactly what they'd be like.

    Jasmin Singer: By the way, uh, just this morning I noticed that Faunalytics came out with a new study about humane education. And yeah, it, I just saw it and, um, it, it was talking about how.

    Uh, humane and food related educational interventions can enhance children's empathy and openness towards animals, and even like alternative proteins. And it talks about how the durability and scope may vary across topics and time. Uh. But ultimately it was a very positive nod toward the importance of humane education.

    Mariann Sullivan: That I'm not surprised at.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, shaping attitude, shaping attitudes, and fostering empathy toward animals. And I guess, you know, it was interesting timing that that just came out because I think that's what's missing. Like when I see something like even Chicken Run, I think, you know, this might actually impact a child to think differently about animals.

    But when I see Hoppers, or Hoopers, as you prefer to call it, I don't know if it would, I just dunno.

    Mariann Sullivan: I think it would. I mean, the heroine cared passionately about animals. I mean, and she cared, it wasn't just about nature, it wasn't just about the environment, it was about the animals. So I, I'm not gonna be that harsh on it. I, I think it could have a positive effect. I mean, I guess I worry too, which is not a worry that we used to have that, that, well, I guess it's a worry that we've always had, that these portrayals of animals make people disappointed in real animals.

    And that's becoming stronger and stronger because of ai. And, you know, we have what look like, like real animal videos in which animals are doing ridiculous things that they can't do.

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: There's this, you know, there's a huge fear that, that this will make real animals disappointing. 'Cause people generally always are disappointed with animals 'cause they're not, they're not the toys. And, and you know, even with when you get a new dog. Like you think they're just gonna go out in the backyard and play fetch with you and it's like, you know, Yeah, after six months of working with them, maybe. Uh, you know, real animals have their own lives and their own personalities and it, there is a worry that all portrayals of them will be disappointing. But, you know, Chicken Run. Not to constantly come back to chicken... Well, this movie too, I mean, obviously nobody thinks these are real animals, but there might be a little implication for kids that this is what animals would really be like if you could talk to them.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I will. I, okay. We, we have to move on from this discussion, but I just wanna add one thing. We've interviewed thousands of activists at this point, and I've never heard anyone once. Yeah, I think so. 'cause we used to do two interviews per episode for some insane reason. Uh, the, I've never, I've never heard anyone point to like a, a, a cartoon as why they got enlightened about animals.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, true, true.

    Jasmin Singer: Uh, I mean, maybe it was part of the background for them, but

    Mariann Sullivan: I don't think I have either, but you know, every little drip drop can make a difference.

    Jasmin Singer: But that was like millions of dollars of a drip drop.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. But this movie like, well, I mean, they made the movie because they wanna make money, which they will. And this movie does make it okay to care about animals. I mean, and I think that's a nice drip.

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm. True.

    Mariann Sullivan: Good guys care about the animals and the bad guys don't. You know, I can't imagine they'd make a movie where the bad, where the good guys hated animals. It would be a weird movie.

    Jasmin Singer: You know, her grandmother was a big part of her life and like that gut punched me 'cause my grandmother was such a big part of mine. That's neither here nor there.

    Mariann Sullivan: Grandmother piece was nice. There was a lot of nice stuff.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, for sure. Alright, let's move on. So, uh, you, you all know well, maybe you don't because you're not in my head though. I figure you should be if you've been listening to Our Hen House with any regularity, why aren't you in my head? That I love Tig Notaro. I've gotten to interview her, uh, and I've also gotten to meet her several times. I'm a huge Tig Notaro fan. I also don't generally care about celebrities, but there are a few exceptions and she is one of them.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, there are definitely a few exceptions.

    Jasmin Singer: But not that many really truly like, but Tig...

    Mariann Sullivan: When did the Liza Minnelli biography come out, and when did you start reading it?

    Jasmin Singer: Yesterday and yesterday.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

    Jasmin Singer: We better hurry up 'cause I have to get back to that. She's not a celebrity, she's an icon. There's a difference.

    Mariann Sullivan: I see.

    Jasmin Singer: Also, you know, I just played Judy Garland and I'm at the part where she's like, you know, really in, in it with her mom, Judy Garland.

    Mariann Sullivan: I'm sorry everybody. I did not mean to bring up Liza Minnelli.

    Jasmin Singer: Which reminds me of the fact that she married Peter Allen. Sorry. I'll stop.

    Mariann Sullivan: Stop

    Jasmin Singer: Okay. It's your fault. So. So this video came up where a comedian slash podcaster named Laura Clary, who I admit, I didn't know who she was, uh, which doesn't say anything. I don't know who a lot of people are.

    Mariann Sullivan: I don't know who loads of people.

    Jasmin Singer: She was interviewing Tig and uh, some, and somehow, you know, Tig mentioned she was vegan, and then Laura Clary was like, I am too.

    And they kind of had this moment, and Laura said something like, aren't you, you know, tired of everybody hating you? And Tig kind of was like, you know.

    Mariann Sullivan: She was a little taken aback at first, but then got into it

    Jasmin Singer: She kind of joke, she kind of just like turned it into sort of a joke, but, um.

    Mariann Sullivan: You know, she's a comedian.

    Jasmin Singer: But like, maybe I just am hardened to this, but I don't really think people hate vegans.

    I, I think that like most people don't

    Mariann Sullivan: That's been a trope

    Jasmin Singer: care.

    Mariann Sullivan: for a long time. That that, you know, I mean, and I think we've indulged in it as well, and I'm, I like you, I'm a little sick of it.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah. So what did you, I mean, like, there was something about it that I was like, huh? You know, like I, I, I guess I just was like, maybe people just hate you, Laura.

    I don't know.

    Mariann Sullivan: Um, I did, I mean, there were two, there were actually two things. One is like the unbelievable shock that Tig Notaro was vegan. I'm, I'm right about that. Right? Like, like, it's not that shocking that somebody should be vegan. Like, you know, we can take it in stride. Uh, we're not the only people in the world.

    Yeah. But the main thing was this, like, how does it feel to have everybody hate you? I, I agree. My experience is that mostly, uh, people just don't care, which is disappointing, but it's certainly not the same thing as hating you. And you know, I know that my experience might be different than other people's, 'cause people... I don't know, people don't confront me as much sometimes, but I think at least a part of it is too many vegans, certainly, this is certainly not everybody, but you know, people who indulge in this idea that everybody hates me 'cause I'm vegan. Too many vegans just wanna feel like a victim.

    Jasmin Singer: Wait, hang on, hang on. I have, hold on, hold on, hold on. We have to do animal liberation. Hurry. Here's a little piece of paper. There's the beetle. Oh, okay. Hang on one second, everybody here, you can use this if you need to. We're liberating an animal.

    Mariann Sullivan: One of those, um, those, what are they called? I forget.

    Jasmin Singer: Thank you. I don't What kind of animal is that?

    Mariann Sullivan: They're coming out in my house too.

    Jasmin Singer: They're like, it's a baby lady bug. It's a baby, baby lady bug.

    Mariann Sullivan: Oh, yeah. The one I'm, I'm thinking of are much bigger than that.

    Jasmin Singer: Moore, more liberated her.

    Mariann Sullivan: The bugs are starting to emerge, and some of them have been living in your house, so that's where they're emerging from.

    Jasmin Singer: Oh my God. That's, that's, that's so funny. Like what a, that's like a, a horror movie, uh, trope. The bugs are starting to emerge.

    Mariann Sullivan: Or a friendly visit from friends.

    Jasmin Singer: Well,

    Mariann Sullivan: Alright. Anyway, I just, I just wanted to mention, I'm sick of this. I'm sick of this trope that everybody hates vegans. Not everybody indulges in it, but if you do, stop because not everybody hates you, and it's not particularly helpful. I mean, do we really wanna be a movement that goes around advertising that if you join us, everybody will hate you? It's just not good activism.

    That's just not appealing. And also it brought up for me, you had sent me this Substack, which I haven't read carefully yet. I'm sorry. It's by Becky Niemiec, Dr Becky Niemiec. I hope I'm pronouncing that right uh. This is really interesting because she's talking about some research conducted at the Animal Human Policy Center, which is in Colorado, which I have to learn more about. Pluralistic ignorance in the animal protection movement. And she starts off saying, do you sometimes feel like you are the only one who cares about animal suffering? Do you find yourself censoring what you say about animal suffering because you think no one wants to hear it? And then she totally debunks that and says, people care. People who care about animals drastically underestimate how much other people care about animals, and it's holding us back. So I, you know, I think the vegan thing gets in the, gets in the way. Like, like obviously we think, I mean, this isn't, now I'm talking for myself, not for Becky.

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: We think that if people care about animals, they should be vegan. And so we conflate those things because it only makes sense to conflate those things. But other people don't conflate them and we, we tend to think that, well then they don't care about animals. But that's not true actually. People care about animals a lot, a lot more than we tend to think they do. Isn't interesting? I think that's something we have to hold onto.

    Jasmin Singer: Well, and it might just,

    Mariann Sullivan: it had something, I have to read the rest, the

    Jasmin Singer: you know.

    Mariann Sullivan: article before I talk about it on the podcast,

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, we'll link to it

    and people could subscribe to her substack as well. Um, but I, yeah, it, it, it does make me think a little bit about one's general foundational attitude. Like, I tend to think , you know, when I get into a not great place, I tend to just assume that everyone's against, you know, I'm going to like, uh, nobody likes me, everybody hates me.

    I'm gonna go eat some

    cultivated, cultivated meat worms. Uh, but yeah, like when I think of people, like even, you know, my, my mom in a way that I have, I have kind of hearkened... in a way I have sort of attributed to ignorance, but I think that's mean of me. My mom sees the best in people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But she sees the best in people as a foundational worldview, I think.

    And I don't, and I'm calling myself on that and saying, I don't think I've been fair to her in that sense. But my grandma also kind of, you know, really saw the possibilities in people more so than the... more so than me. Like, more so than being hardened to the possibilities of someone. And I think that this is reminding me that I need an attitude change, which is to say like, we all sort of agree that animals are fabulous.

    And if even if that's not true, if I approach a conversation with that belief, then maybe it would impact my advocacy and my life.

    Mariann Sullivan: Absolutely, I absolutely agree. And also you should read the rest of the Substack

    Jasmin Singer: I know. I know.

    Mariann Sullivan: Maybe we'll learn something. But I I, but I do, I, aside from that, I, I mean, I think there's a certain naivete that we should avoid because, you know, I mean, as we all know, and we don't have to go into this a lot, people, people do care about animals. I'm conceding that. People probably care about them more than I think they do. But they, you know, we have to deal with the block they have about doing anything about it. And we're not being naive about that. I mean, that, that exists. That's real. And that's, that's that's a problem.

    So I think a balance between accepting people's emotions may be better than we thought they are, but their behavior is, is just as bad as we think.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I, I just wanna say too that like, I've been a lesbian for a very long time, and. I still, to this day, I think unnecessarily, but I still to this day, kind of assume that there's someone who's gonna be, like, homophobic if I'm like in a store or something and I'm like,

    I, I, I, and it's, it's a, it's, maybe it's like PTSD from when people actually were more like that.

    But I know I'm largely making it up.

    Mariann Sullivan: I think PTSD might be an exaggerated way to say it, but we do always remember the bad things that happened. That's just a fact. I mean, we, we always remember the person who insulted us, the thing that went wrong. Like it's, it's just a, maybe it's a like a hereditary thing in our makeup to make us like cautious so we survive and that's why that happens.

    But one does have to fight that.

    Jasmin Singer: But I just, I'm using that as an example to say like, even if I'm in a, a, a place that is clearly not a progressive environment, you know, like they probably could care less that I'm a, like, that I'm gay and, and I,

    Mariann Sullivan: I tell you that all time. You never listen to me.

    Jasmin Singer: Well, it's, it's so much deeper than that. It's, it's, it's so much deeper than listening to you or not listening to you, like I know it's true, and yet it's in my head.

    Mariann Sullivan: I was teasing. I'm sorry.

    Jasmin Singer: No, I know. No.

    Mariann Sullivan: And it's not like, I mean, sometimes there're times to be cautious.

    Jasmin Singer: Right?

    Mariann Sullivan: It's good to keep an eye out to see whether something about you is, is um, is making somebody upset, and they look like they could be psychopathic.

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: That's, that only makes sense.

    I, uh, you know, I have my no Trump button that I don't wear absolutely everywhere.

    Jasmin Singer: And and it's, and, and that scares me.

    Mariann Sullivan: I do tend to forget I'm wearing it. So I do tend to wear it everywhere.

    Jasmin Singer: Right.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I mean caution, but we definitely overdo it.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, for sure. Okay, let's move on. Uh, you are working on another substack. I don't know if it will be published by the time this comes out or not, but I have read it. I have read it, and I really appreciate it. I really, really liked it. I liked it more than your last

    Mariann Sullivan: It was in response to what you said about my last one, which some people might have read. It was about creating campaign around, um, keeping, keeping calves with mother cows for at least six months and boycotting milk unless that happens. Alright, I created, I mean, I didn't create a campaign, but I wrote out my thoughts about what a campaign could look like.

    And you said, well, I, I mean, I don't think you were opposed to it, but you thought it was very welfarey and people who were enthusiastic about welfare reforms might, you know, but were enthusiastic about veganism might not like that because we weren't asking, I wasn't asking people to go vegan. I was asking 'em to boycott milk.

    It was really a small ask. Boycott milk. And, but it, so I decided to write another thing why I thought it was different than a regular welfare campaign. There are two kinds of welfare campaigns, and this was in the second kind. The first is the kind of welfare reform, like cage-free eggs, that is, at least arguably, doable by the industry, while still remaining profitable and producing eggs. And like cage free, you know, that could happen. We're trying to talk them into doing something that is possible, which seems to make sense to anybody.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

    Mariann Sullivan: But this is not, this is not the kind I was thinking of. I was thinking of something that I'm calling existential welfarism, and that is asking the industry to do something that to most ordinary people would seem the very, like absolutely obviously has to be done, but that the industry actually can't do without going outta business.

    And I don't think that the milk industry can keep calves with their mothers for six months without going outta business. It would, you know, it's just, that would be way too hard and too expensive. That's not what they do. They take the calves away from the mothers right at birth and, you know, then use the milk. I could be wrong, in which case, so what? You know, if they, if they can do it, then they should do it, but I don't think so, and it so... basically, if it's something the industry could conceivably be talked into, you know, with enough activism or enough appealing to retailers or however they convince people to do cage free, it's going to be inadequate by definition because, you know, it costs money to take good care of animals. If it's something that would actually really help anim... I mean, I'm not saying cage free doesn't help animals, but if it would really substantially help animals, it's not achievable, uh, through persuasion, um, of the industry or through legislation. And I mean, we can con... I, I'm just wondering if there's a place for this kind of campaign, whether this kind of campaign has been tried, um, or whether somebody's trying it now.

    I mean, I just really don't know.

    Jasmin Singer: What would an example of this kind of campaign.

    Mariann Sullivan: The example I used in that article was something that actually succeeded, sort of, and it was the, um, it was years and years ago in the eighties that every magazine you picked up had a classified ad in the back about, um, crated veal.

    Jasmin Singer: I think that might have been the seventies, but regardless, uh.

    Mariann Sullivan: They all run together for me, um, long in my past. And, and uh, and it actually, I mean, that's not the only reason the created veal really never took off in the United States, but, um, it's one of the reasons. Everybody knew that boycott veal campaign. I should mention, Marina Bolotnikova just wrote a terrific article on, um, Vox about how male calves are currently treated along with female calves.

    And it's probably worse than, than crated. I mean, it's just so bad, but it's not crated veal. Um. They, you know, it's not like it fixed the problem, but it was a campaign that was... it did, did, I think, put a real dent into the market for, for veal in the US. Um, so the idea is to pick something, you know, but then I don't know whether there was... have there been other campaigns like that?

    There probably have. I don't, I just don't know. I just wonder is there a place for this kind of campaign? It

    seeks something that isn't total veganism. And it will never be won. Those are, uh...

    Jasmin Singer: I think that foie gras is an example, like boycott restaurants that sell foie gras. I don't think it's succeeded though. Um, I mean, I'm basing this on, I'm basing this on my anecdotal experience running anti foie gras campaigns.

    Mariann Sullivan: A little different because it's boycotting just that one product, whereas, uh, which is a specialty product. But yeah, there is a similarity there. Um.

    Jasmin Singer: I mean,

    Mariann Sullivan: Uh, boycotting force feeding. Maybe that's why that, maybe that's why people are always doing foie gras campaigns and they're so popular within the movement because they kind of fit into this kind of trope.

    Even though foie gras is a very, very minimal food. I mean, boycott milk would be bigger because you would be asked to boycott a huge product based on this one practice.

    Jasmin Singer: I think we're also touching on what a lot of animal activists call, you know, the conundrum of single issue campaigning, which I know people have very strong opinions about.

    Mariann Sullivan: But you know, I'm trying to get around that.

    Jasmin Singer: I want to remind whoever cares to be reminded that there is a difference between strategy and idealist...

    Mariann Sullivan: One thing I think is that we should always be honest.

    Jasmin Singer: Sure.

    Mariann Sullivan: We should say, uh, you know, boycott milk until they allow the calves to stay with their mothers for six months, and we don't think that can happen, maybe it

    can, but we don't think it can happen. We think that you should just boycott milk forever.

    Jasmin Singer: So do you mean beyond?

    Mariann Sullivan: no problem in being

    Jasmin Singer: I don't think you mean honest. I think you mean transparent. I mean maybe it's like semantics, but.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I think it is kind of.

    Jasmin Singer: I mean, this all goes back to what we were talking about, I think last week, about the, uh, you know, that that piece that was written, uh, making fun of the influencer who said, If you know, to, to go to go vegan, but bacon, you know, like someone was like, I couldn't go vegan because I love bacon. And she was like, then go vegan, but bacon.

    And the writer was putting that down and I was like, it totally makes sense. Go vegan, but bacon, if that's, you know, gonna be the thing. And this reminds me very much of that.

    Mariann Sullivan: Also being honest, which of course you would be in that situation. Like if anybody asks, go vegan, but bacon, that doesn't mean I think bacon is okay, but if that's the thing that's stopping you...

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, yeah, exactly

    Mariann Sullivan: it's all messaging.

    Jasmin Singer: it's messaging, but it's strategy

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, no,

    it's achieving an appropriate strategy by being very careful with your messaging.

    Jasmin Singer: Totes totes. All right. Let's go into some of our announcements because there's some really interesting stuff going on, and I appreciate those of you who have made us aware of some of them.

    Mariann Sullivan: Alright. This is, uh, we had, um, Christine Kim from My Dog is My Home on the podcast, back on episode 7 92, and they are now planning their on fully online conference for 2026. Um, and the tickets are on sale now, and the conference will be March 24th through 26, so that is very soon, and it's gonna be terrific.

    If this is a topic that, um, that you're interested in, there's, you know, you can, you can pick and choose which, uh, which of the lectures or, or talks that you wanna go to, but they, it, they just sound great. And Christine is doing just remarkable work and it has to do with people who are unhoused and, uh, and, and other things as well.

    Um, just the importance of, of people being able to keep their animals, keep their animals healthy and, and I, I truly love the work that she is doing, so I highly recommend. If that's an issue that you're interested in. Um, yeah,

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, absolutely. And we did a great in interview. I loved that interview on, we'll, we'll link to that too on episode 7 92. Uh. We also have an announcement from one of our flock members who wanted to shout out to two animal rescues in her area, and, uh, she says that they are vegan oriented and often speak out against animal testing and other animal rights issues.

    She has adopted rats from both organizations, and their volunteers go to great lengths to transport animals in need of rescue and get animals into foster care or to the vet. So one of them is Lady Bird Sanctuary in Hamilton, Ontario, and that is LadyBirdanimalsanctuary.com. And the other one is All Creatures Rescue, which is based in Toronto, but active across Southwestern Ontario.

    And that is AllCreaturesrescue.ca. I love learning about organizations from our, our flock members near and far. Uh, so thank you again to that, uh, supporter of Our Hen House who wanted us to know about Lady Bird Sanctuary and All Creatures Rescue.

    Mariann Sullivan: This is, uh, from a listener and, and it's about a report that, uh, Robbie, the listener, thought I might know about, but I didn't. And it's a major report assessing the health of nature in the United States. The draft is open for public comment until May 30th, that's a while. Um, and there was an article on the, uh, on the report, which the Trump administration has tried to quash in the New York Times, which we can link to. And, uh, Robbie thinks that, that the report directly touches on issues that have core interest to, to vegans. The report is quite long. It's over 800 pages, but you can direct your comments to various specific issues and, and, uh, if you're interested in that, I totally agree that comments from the right people could be very important, so we will link to that as well. And then finally, this is just a video I saw that I thought people might like. It's, um, it's called, Is Factory Farming Our Worst Crime? And obviously it is. Like, I don't think anybody would argue about that. But this is from a site that is not usually about, um, animals. Uh, it's called The Market Exit and it, it's largely an interview with Rutger Bregman who is just one of the best, uh, most clear spokespeople on the issue of what we're doing to animals and how it is indeed our biggest crime. It's a really good video. It's the kind of video I think you could show people who are interested, but who are not there yet, because it's coming from someone who, who, you know, it's not coming from a vegan animal rights site.

    Though I think the person did go vegan, which is one of the problems we have, like, like, as soon as people find out about the issue, and they're thoughtful people and they really find out a lot, they go vegan, and then everybody sees them as biased. Oh, well, they're just, they're vegan. Of course, that's what they're gonna say.

    Anyway, I recommend it.

    Jasmin Singer: Maybe this is my foundational jaded state, but when you just said, is factory farming the worst crime? You just said, I think nobody would argue that the answer is yes. I think plenty of people would argue that the answer is...

    Mariann Sullivan: that's ridiculous.

    Jasmin Singer: but with

    Mariann Sullivan: You're absolutely right. I sort of meant everybody listening to

    Jasmin Singer: Probably.

    Mariann Sullivan: but even then, I, I actually, when I posted it to, um, my blue sky, uh, I said, although there is a lot of competition for this honor.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

    Mariann Sullivan: At least I nodded to the fact that it's hardly the only one.

    Jasmin Singer: Right.

    Mariann Sullivan: There's, there are many, many candidates for worse crime.

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: I thank you for pointing that out.

    Jasmin Singer: Well, on that cheerful note, uh, thank you for listening and for being here with us. Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report, which is this, on Thursdays, and the long form interview on Fridays. Don't forget to check out your bonus content if you're a Flock member, which comes out on Mondays and you can learn more and join us as a flock member at ourhenhouse.org/support

    And we'd love to have you. That's it for us. Thank you to Vicki Bechler and Jen Riley for their help in making Our Hen House happen. And to you, our listeners, we'll talk to you next time.

    ​

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