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App not listed? Try this RSS linkIn this episode of The Hen Report, Jasmin and Mariann dive into the emotional and political landscape of animal advocacy — from the dramatic DXE rescue operation at Ridglan Farms in Wisconsin to a surprising New York Times piece on MAGA figures warming up to animal rights. They also celebrate a major legal win for the long-stalled New York City foie gras ban, discuss the complexities of maintaining friendships with non-vegans, and explore a new academic book asking whether animals, rivers, and, yes, AI can hold fundamental rights. Because apparently we needed to invent a sentient chatbot before we can start taking seriously the creatures who’ve been bleeding and suffering in front of us the whole time.
- Ridglan Farms rescue: DxE activists rescued 22 beagles from the infamous Wisconsin research facility, reigniting conversations about animal experimentation and the emotional toll of animal advocacy
- MAGA and animal rights: A New York Times article explores how figures like Anthony Bellotti (White Coat Waste Project) and Lara Trump are pushing against animal testing — a rare, unexpected alignment between conservative politics and animal protection
- NYC foie gras ban: An appellate court overturned a lower ruling, clearing a major hurdle for New York City’s long-delayed ban on the sale of foie gras
- Veganism and the “bigger tent”: Jasmin and Mariann reflect on navigating relationships with non-vegan allies — including a positive dinner at Rochester vegan restaurant Red Fern — and whether a more inclusive approach strengthens the movement
- New academic book — Fundamental Rights for Non-Humans: Edited by Cambridge scholars, this volume examines whether animals, AI, and nature can hold legal rights, and why animals are still being sidestepped in mainstream conversations about sentience and personhood
RESOURCES
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INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Jasmin Singer: Welcome to The Hen Report. This is Jasmin Singer
Mariann Sullivan: This is Mariann Sullivan. You said it with such certitude. I wanted to, I wanted to be as certain as you. This is Jasmin Singer.
Jasmin Singer: Well, you shouldn't be certain about that because you are not.
Mariann Sullivan: Right.
Jasmin Singer: All right. This is the Our Hen House Podcast. I'm certain of that,
and part of the Our Hen House podcast is that Rising Anxieties, which is one of our shows, comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays, and the long form interview on Fridays. Bonus for flock members on Mondays.
We're on YouTube, we're on all of the pod catchers, all of the things, yada, yada, share, like, comment, subscribe. If you could do one of those things, that would be amazing. Probably some people fast forwarded through this, but if you didn't or if like you couldn't reach the fast forward button in time, like just one of those things would be amazeballs. Just hit like, that would be so great.
Mariann Sullivan: I be the people who fast forward came in in the middle 'cause they couldn't imagine you were gonna go for so long.
Jasmin Singer: I was still talking about it. Yeah. I know.
Mariann Sullivan: They don't know you.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah. So you, you cried yesterday.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. We're gonna start off by talking about Ridglan. I actually discussed this in more depth on Rising Anxieties.
Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.
Mariann Sullivan: Um, and, uh. By yesterday, you're referring to Sunday 'cause we're recording this early 'cause you're traveling this week.
Jasmin Singer: Yes.
Mariann Sullivan: We're recording this on Monday and yesterday I watched... I just, somebody told me that the Ridglan rescue was going on.
So I watched it, to some extent, live. And then some of the, you know, the, the, I was gonna say film... film? Video.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah.
Mariann Sullivan: the video later on.
Jasmin Singer: Do you wanna explain what Ridglan is for anyone who's new?
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I imagine a lot of people are pretty aware, but Ridglan, the Ridglan litigation has been going on for a really long time, and it's this dog breeding, beagle breeding, uh, and experimentation facility in, in the wilds of, uh, Wisconsin, rural Wisconsin. And it, it, you know, they have currently have 2000 beagles there.
And there was an undercover investigation by DXE, the DXE people got arrested. Two days before the trial, they called off the whole thing, uh, said, oh, they, I think they pretended they were scared, uh, about pushback, but really they were scared that the truth was gonna come out. And then DXE turned the tables on them.
I said, all of this on Rising Anxieties, so I don't wanna like go on too much. Um. And, And there was more litigation and very creative litigation, uh, accusing them of cruelty. And that was somewhat successful, but now it didn't actually get the dogs out. So now, now they're, they couldn't get the dogs out, so they broke in and, uh, with, with what they contend, and I agree with, complete legal justification. So not breaking the law,
because these dogs, uh, have to be rescued. Um, and it was heartbreaking. It was heartbreaking. And you know, I hate to be the person who is more affected by, by seeing dogs in trouble, then say chickens or, or pigs or whatever.
And as I think everybody here knows, I'm pretty affected by seeing chickens or pigs in harm, but you know, dogs, it's like they just pull your heartstrings.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah. I have to tell you, I was uh... Moore volunteers at this kind of thrift store for sewing materials place that also has classes, and she was teaching a class yesterday and I took it. And, uh, on reverse applique, there was this guy there, and at the end it was sort of just me and him and I was telling her about what was going on at Ridglan, and I was like, it looks like they've got 20 out.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, as far as I know, they got 22 out. I mean, that could have changed. Uh, you know, it's a fluid situation.
Jasmin Singer: The guy listening goes, or the guy in the class was like, is that a good thing? Then we got to talk a little bit about animal testing to beagles, and then we got to talk about all animal testing to all animals.
Mariann Sullivan: Well, good.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah, it was a, it was more than he bargained for when he wanted to put a triangle on his jeans.
Mariann Sullivan: We are always more than anybody bargains for.
Jasmin Singer: Right. Yeah. No, it's tough. It's tough stuff, but you know.
Mariann Sullivan: I, it, I, um, I mean I guess the reason you mentioned that... like it got me into a very dark place. It did. I don't know why that particularly 'cause we see dark things all the time and we spend our life, you know, carefully quantifying how much we can manage without, uh, losing it. Um, and it got me into a dark place, which I think is important to visit once in a while, you know, to get the, allow the emotions to, to rise to the surface.
Jasmin Singer: You know what you're making me think of? That song, just Googling the lyrics, Losing My Mind by Steven Sondheim. The song is about like, you know, a, a breakup situation, but honestly it makes me think of animal rights a little bit. It's um, the sun comes up, I think about you. The coffee cup, I think about you.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I know that song. Yeah.
Jasmin Singer: it's like I'm losing my mind.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is like that. It's like, yeah, we spend a lot of emotional energy not allowing ourselves to, to dip into the depths of despair and occasionally, like we, we fail.
Jasmin Singer: It's okay. I said to you when you texted me, I was like, it seems like the only reasonable response is to be like undone by it.
Mariann Sullivan: It's the only reasonable response to all of it, every day, all the time, and we try not to take it because, can't live there.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I just want you to know that in the middle of my reading those lyrics, Murray, my dog, who I'm holding right now, for those of you not watching on YouTube, burped
Mariann Sullivan: Aw. Does he have an up? Does he have an upset stomach?
Jasmin Singer: He burps. That's just part of his thing. He burps alot.
Mariann Sullivan: I didn't know that.
Jasmin Singer: it was just great timing, like in the middle of all this. Anyway, uh. So we also, you wanted to talk about this whole thing that keeps coming up in our lives regarding people in our lives.
Mariann Sullivan: It comes up for you. I wanted you to talk about it because it has to do with, uh, to some extent with, um, having friends who, who aren't vegan. And I, I'm not saying that I insist on all my friends being vegan, I just don't have any friends 'cause I'm not the most social person in the world. But you are pretty social.
Jasmin Singer: you have You have lots of friends. You're going to offend people.
Mariann Sullivan: No, I do have friends. I do have friends, but I don't have, I don't have like a wide circle. I have like a small circle of people who are very important to me. Um, but you also have a wide circle, a wider circle, and, and we were talking about, um, about supporting a store near us that is a vegan store, a beautiful store. It's called Cleo and Kin, and, uh, and it's so. We know the woman who owns it. She's lovely, she's vegan. Everything there is vegan, it's housewares, clothes, um, so just, you know, gift items, uh, like all sorts of different things. And they're all beautiful. And we were talking about how to support it without spending all of our money there, which is really easy to do.
Uh, and, and I suggested introducing people to it because, you know, all of these people who are sort of, they're not sort of vegan at all. They're, but they're vegan positive. You know who, people who aren't vegan, but they kind of like to play vegan. You know, a lot of those people.
Jasmin Singer: I do. And they, they do. I I, it's tough though, because I think that oftentimes it's people like that who don't really go vegan, but they...
Mariann Sullivan: Well, that's the big problem. Like we're always holding up this requirement or this hope or this, uh, standard that we hope they're gonna get there. And that's just not a good way, I don't think that's a good way to approach it. I think a lot of them... I'm not talking about these particular people. I don't know, but a lot of people are never gonna get there until the world changes.
They're never gonna be that different from from other people. There's a whole lot of reasons why people don't go vegan, but I don't wanna have that relationship where I'm always thinking, well, you're kind of failing.
Jasmin Singer: That you are? That I'm? That who's failing?
Mariann Sullivan: No, that the person who's
Mariann Sullivan: very animal friendly really cares, gets upset when you tell them things and then doesn't go vegan. I don't wanna, like, I, I, I would like to, I would like to find a new way to frame that kind of relationship that I'm not always like hoping they'll go vegan. They're not gonna go vegan until the rest of the world's vegan 'cause they're just not that person.
Jasmin Singer: Hmm. Yeah, I see your point. Uh, and I think that the last few weeks I've noticed that you are a little bit, you know, more positive in general, uh,
Mariann Sullivan: Me?
Jasmin Singer: your, with your whole bigger tent thing and you're, you're kind of doing it again, you're talking about a bigger tent.
Mariann Sullivan: Right.
Jasmin Singer: I went out to v to, to vegan, I went out to vegan... um, I went out to dinner at Red Fern, which is like kind of our iconic vegan restaurant here in Rochester with three non-vegan the other day, and we all had such a lovely time, and part of the reason why was because they weren't being annoying about it. Like they weren't just ordering the hummus. I, I hate going out to a great vegan restaurant and... or the, Or the or a salad.
Or they think that like, oh, I'm at a vegan place, I guess I'll be healthy or something. No, these people ordered like really good, hearty dishes and they also didn't make a big deal of it like it was like. I mean they made a big deal 'cause it was good, but they weren't like, wow, how is this vegan? Like, they kinda knew it was gonna be good.
So it was really nice. And uh, it, I think that that made me not on guard. I'm frequently on guard, you know, in general, A, and b, when I'm with non-vegan specifically 'cause I'm sort of waiting for that gotcha. And affirming to be a positive person around people who are being positive about it. I guess we sort of have to let go of the rest to some extent.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I mean, and, and uh, when you were saying I'm more positive and it, you know, I'm not really changing my personality. I'm not really, but I think it makes us better activists and so to come to it with a way of dealing with it that is positive, uh, and not just being so frustrated by everybody all the time.
I mean, especially if they're like that. I mean, if, if they're the kind of people who are like, you know, sarcastic or in any way negative, then the hell with them.
Jasmin Singer: So you mentioned that I'm traveling this week. I'm going to be in Albany, New York. Not to be confused with Albany, for those of you in California, uh, I'm going to be on a little retreat for World Shapers, and I'm bringing Murray, my little poodle who's on my lap right
Mariann Sullivan: Oh, he's gonna be a big help.
Jasmin Singer: I have to tell you that this dog, he, he does not pack light, he packs heavy, but the
Mariann Sullivan: Well, he needs, he has a lot of equipment.
Jasmin Singer: He has, a lot of equipment.
Mariann Sullivan: He has needs.
Jasmin Singer: He does. The reason I'm
Mariann Sullivan: He needs to go on a diet Jasmin. I'm sorry, but geez.
Jasmin Singer: He's on a diet!
Mariann Sullivan: All right. I'm looking at him and he looks so chubby and I just worry about him. I'm not, now, I'm, I'm not being, uh, not that positive. It's not that.
Jasmin Singer: I know, but he's on a diet like, don't dog parent shame me.
Mariann Sullivan: Oh, poor baby.
Jasmin Singer: He's on a diet. He's on these medicines that I've been like, he's on a serious diet.
Mariann Sullivan: You know what? You can go now that it's getting warmer and you're gonna be starting to run, maybe you can take him running sometimes. That would be great for him.
Jasmin Singer: I take him walking.
Mariann Sullivan: He's a young dog.
Jasmin Singer: He is not a good runner with me.
Mariann Sullivan: Oh, maybe you could learn.
Jasmin Singer: But he, I do. I have been taking him on long walks. So Thursday night I will still be away, and Thursday night is when Moore and I every week...
Mariann Sullivan: I'm sorry, Murray.
Jasmin Singer: We watched the show, The Pitt, uh, so I was like, what are we gonna do? Maybe we could FaceTime and watch it together.
Like, I was kind of like, what? How can I wait till Friday when I come back to watch The Pitt? And this funny, I know you don't really, you don't watch The Pitt, but SNL.
Mariann Sullivan: I watched part of it and for some reason I found it stressful.
Jasmin Singer: Very stressful.
Mariann Sullivan: Can't watch anything anymore. Everything stresses me out.
Jasmin Singer: It's very stressful. But SNL did this like spoof on The Pitt and we'll link
Mariann Sullivan: It, it was hilarious.
Jasmin Singer: was called MAHAspital and It was a spoof on The Pitt if it was like run by MAHA people.
And there were all of
Mariann Sullivan: It was hilarious.
Jasmin Singer: vegan mentions or vegan adjacent mentions, like, you know, about how they, they needed to be prescribed just meat and they all, there was a vegan in it and they said this person has no chance. And then they unplugged the machine so that, so that she died because they didn't wanna deal with her. It was so funny.
Mariann Sullivan: It was really funny.
You know what? It made me 'cause the, it, it did have a vegan reference, which was a positive one. And it made me start thinking that like when we were trying to talk everybody into being vegan and showing everybody that vegan is better and vegan is great, like people are contrarian and I think a lot of people were just like, no, I'm not gonna be vegan.
So it's really good that now we have RFK Junior and 'cause the one thing that like they, the one weird thing that they don't push is veganism. Like they're so meat, meat, meat. And, uh, so I think it's putting veganism in a, in a good light, the fact that they're so against it. I think it's excellent.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah.
Mariann Sullivan: Course, except for the people who, um, think he's great, which, you know, I always forget those people exist.
Jasmin Singer: Right. Well,
Mariann Sullivan: And, you know, it's not like they, it's not like there's nothing going on that is good. And actually we have a little to talk about. Uh,
Jasmin Singer: Let's just get to that. We'll, we'll change the order of things 'cause I think this is a good moment.
Okay. So I get a text from my brother the other day, speaking of waiting for the gotchas, right? Like every time my brother, you know, talks to me about, uh, veganism it's, it's a gotcha moment and I'm apparently not logged in on, on this computer to New York Times.
So you could pull it up and I'll pull it up on my phone in a second. But anyway, the article was about how the, um, MAGA movement is kind of embracing animal rights. I, I was like, he just sent it to me and I, like, I knew he was trying to gotcha me or...
Mariann Sullivan: I'm not sure he really was, having read the article. I don't know.
He might have just thought it would be something you would be interested in.
Jasmin Singer: I replied, and I, Moore had said this, so I was using her line, but I replied and said, even a broken clock is right two times a day. And you know, I, the
Mariann Sullivan: Very good one. You got him.
Jasmin Singer: Okay. I'm sensing sarcasm, but I was proud of it even though Moore said it and it was just. Well, why don't you talk a little bit about article.
Mariann Sullivan: Well, it's largely a fee... The, the title of the article is Waste, Fauci, and Transgender Mice, How MAGA Is Warming to Animal Rights. And it is largely about Anthony Bellotti, who was the founder of White Coat Waste Project, which I can't say White Coat Waste Project.
Jasmin Singer: is
Mariann Sullivan: And we interviewed him on episode 2 0 4. So we were, you know, we were way ahead of the New York Times.
Um. And it is just talking about the facts that, uh, well, I'll take this quote. After decades of being dismissed by many conservatives as a project of the political left, the cause of animal rights is being embraced by leading figures in President Trump's Make America Great Again movement, albeit in a way that fits into their anti-government, pro meat eating ethos.
So this is not about meat at all, but it is about about, um, science, the use of animals in science. And the EPA, the Defense Department, the Food and Drug Administration have all, I mean, and as we've talked be about before on the podcast, have all taken a certain amount of steps to stop animal research. And there's this whole thing going on with the primate sanctuaries, uh, I mean the primate experiment facilities, which they're talking about turning into sanctuaries.
We'll see whether that really happens. Another character within the administration who's highlighted here is, is Lara Trump. And then there is, um, oh God, what's her name? The, the nutty one, um, uh, does, it doesn't really... Laura Loomer, Laura Loomer!
Jasmin Singer: Yes.
Mariann Sullivan: Uh, she's another one, uh, who are all like, you know, uh, they don't like animal experimentation 'cause they don't like a lot of science stuff, but, um, of course, but you know, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Jasmin Singer: Good one.
Mariann Sullivan: So, so, uh, it's just a pretty cool article. It's also, it's taught about how the NIH is taking steps to reduce the use of non human primates,
Jasmin Singer: I don't.
Mariann Sullivan: And just let me finish this quote, because it, it's rattling scientists who say such research has been responsible for advances, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They, they keep quoting me scientists who like or are in the business of animal research who have made their money off of animal research who have doing animal research all their lives, like, uh, yeah, uh, of course they're gonna support it. But we all know that science has been moving away from animal research too. So in this case, I think they're right and PETA is apparently all over it. Um, good for them.
Jasmin Singer: You said this is a cool article. I, I hated it. I mean, I, I can't really explain it, like, I'm not sure it's entirely rational, but I hated it. Like...
Mariann Sullivan: Well, that doesn't give me a lot to push back against.
Jasmin Singer: I understand that we need a bigger tent, and I understand that the whole thing about like strange bedfellows might as well, be irrelevant when it comes to animals. I can't fully separate the fact that it was my brother that sent this to me.
Mariann Sullivan: I can't. I can't fix that.
Jasmin Singer: But I think it's just because I think that, you know, Trump supporters and, and the Trump administration and MAGA people are ruining everything.
Mariann Sullivan: Well, yeah. I mean, I, I don't,
Jasmin Singer: I don't
Mariann Sullivan: This isn't a defense of, um, well, one thing I thought, I think you might find interesting is Matthew Scully's quote.
You know, Matthew Scully, he was a conservative speech writer. He worked for George W. Bush. I have no idea where he is now, vis-a-vis, um, Trump. But anyway, but, but a passionate animal rights advocate, the author of Dominion. I would not assume that animal welfare, animal protection is more associated with the liberal side, said Matthew Scully. It is kind of a shared concern. Though I would say it is equally disregarded, its importance is underrated within both parties. So I mean, I think that kind of, uh, evens it out a bit. This isn't about like supporting...
Jasmin Singer: Yeah.
Mariann Sullivan: It's just supporting the animals and you know, the recognizing that, that there's never been any recognition on either side. And, but also recognizing that this could challenge, you know, like people care about it.
People, a lot of people care about it. This could challenge, uh, other politicians to say, oh, well, you know, maybe I shouldn't be on the wrong side of this issue.
Jasmin Singer: I like that quote. That does help. Um, it does help for sure, and I do want anyone to stop eating animals regardless
Mariann Sullivan: They all eat animals and they make that clear.
Jasmin Singer: Should have. Yeah, you're
Mariann Sullivan: Oh, except I don't, I don't think Anthony Bellotti does because he mentioned, I, I, I actually Googled it and, um, I came with, with, um, one quote of his, which said he was he, when he went vegetarian and you know where that quote was from? It was from Our Hen House episode 2 0 4.
Jasmin Singer: Oh my God.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. So, uh, he's at least vegetarian and he didn't say he wasn't vegan. He just said he was vegetarian when he, when he went vegetarian. I kind of assume he's probably a vegan because he seems like a really passionate animal activist.
Jasmin Singer: So I shouldn't have, I mean, it's true, but what I said is true. I, I don't want people to eat animals regardless of their political
Mariann Sullivan: Of course, of course. We get that.
Jasmin Singer: and, And I don't want anyone to exploit them regardless of anything else. Um, I will take any sidestepping we can do of the exploitation of animals.
Mariann Sullivan: And bringing attention to it so that, you know, people on the other side will start to like, brag about what they're doing, if they're doing anything. Um, and they talk a little bit about Dr. Jay Bhattacharya who's drawn praise from leaders of PETA and, and PCRM, um, for closing the last Beagle laboratory.
Um, and how, how, um, how he's a, he is heavily criticized by the right. So I think that the point here is that it's getting 'em all mixed up. Like, you know, nobody fits in a slot anymore and the issue is up for grabs and they're gonna start to realize that this is an issue that plays.
Jasmin Singer: Okay. Well, I, I, I don't really know how to put this. It really bugs me and I think that there's problem with my reaction.
Mariann Sullivan: Well, maybe not.
Jasmin Singer: I, I just, I, find it really loathsome the way so many individuals are so horrifically oppressed under this administration that I guess I just can't get there. I, I can't look at this article and say, cool article.
And I think that that's, uh, a problem of mine that I need to overcome because you're right. Bigger tent. Uh, but yeah, I mean, maybe it's good, interesting fodder for people's upcoming St Patrick's Day plans.
Mariann Sullivan: It's important to remember that, uh, every other administration, also far from perfect on the human front, but completely disastrous on the animal front. So as far as animals are concerned, there's never been anybody, uh, who, um... there's never been an administration that really took any steps forward.
I mean, or anything other than the most minimal steps forward.
Jasmin Singer: Well, speaking of minimal steps forward and administration. I was shocked to see after I, uh, worked on this campaign many years ago, 20, almost 20 years ago now, that New York City will soon enforce a ban on fo gras, uh, I mean, supposedly.
Mariann Sullivan: Well, it's not totally a done deal. It's not, but huge step forward. New York City passed this law. The New York City Council passed this law like a long time ago. It just seems like this has been going on for years. Um, banning the sale of foie gras in the city. You know, totally fine, totally normal. Other cities have done the same.
And then, uh, the, the, they got sued. And, and well, it, they, it was brought to the, to the, uh, Department of Agriculture and Markets, um, which decided that the ban infringed on the right of upstate farmers. That is probably I'm taking that from an article. As I recall, it was a very complicated, uh, based on weird regulations. And um, so that was a, that's a very shorthand way of saying it. And, and, which is ridiculous. Like the city is not allowed to pass its own laws? They have to pass the only the laws that upstate farmers want? That's, it's crazy. Anyway, they It, it got upheld by the court and then it got appealed and the, the appeals court just overturned it and said, which doesn't mean that it automatically goes into effect.
There's still additional steps that have to be taken before it goes into effect. And they could still appeal it further to the Court of Appeals. Hopefully they will not, or the Court of Appeals doesn't have to, um, I don't, it doesn't have to review it. It could, it could refuse to review it because this is totally, it was totally ridiculous.
Totally ridiculous as if the city is not allowed to, uh, make any laws about what can be sold in the city, which apparently is what the courts decided. It's a very good sign. I think this is a very good sign because, you know, the courts follow opinion and, and, and so it's not totally just like, Oh, that's what the law says, and that's not what the law says.
There's also like when the courts put themselves, they knew there were gonna be a lot of articles about this. They put themselves out there and, and, uh, I'm very pleased about it.
Jasmin Singer: Did they go through your court?
Mariann Sullivan: No, no, this, it was because it was a, um, it, it was, well, now I'm gonna go into details that nobody cares about. It was the Department of Agriculture and Markets.
So those, those administrative cases get a, get appealed to the Appeals Court in Albany.
Jasmin Singer: Oh, I'll be there next. I'll be there in a couple days!
Mariann Sullivan: What a segue. What a segue.
Jasmin Singer: Stop by, because Murray is only going to Albany so he could lobby. He wants to lobby for more treats. I, I didn't tell him that that's not how it works. That's the whole reason I got him to go to Albany.
Yeah.
Mariann Sullivan: Good one. That was a good one.
Jasmin Singer: You and your good ones like you are cramping my style today.
Mariann Sullivan: Aw.
Jasmin Singer: I don't
Mariann Sullivan: I can just see, I can just see him lobbying for treats. He would be so cute.
Jasmin Singer: He would be so cute.
Do you wanna talk about some of these announcements that we're gonna make?
Mariann Sullivan: There's a new book out, um, Fundamental Rights for Non-Humans. This is an academic book. It's it's, um, edited by John Adenitire and Raffael Fasel, um, who have both been on the on the Animal Law Podcast, of course, who, um, are at Cambridge. It has a number of different articles about, uh, about a variety of topics and the basic, um, the basic question that it's asking, Can animals, artificial intelligences and nature have fundamental rights? Do they have fundamental rights? And if they do, how do their rights relate to human rights? And, uh,
Jasmin Singer: Cool.
Mariann Sullivan: Some of the, some of the articles, um, would be leveraging human rights law to advance rights of nature.
Um, can rivers have standing? Are there any animal rights? Um. From theory to practice on the development of animal rights. Insects, AI systems, and the future of legal personhood. Uh, and, and they're, they're both articles and responses to those articles. And if this is your bag, you know, the academic side, uh, I think this is going to be an important, really important contribution.
Jasmin Singer: it looks great. I have to say that I've been in a couple different rooms lately where the rights of rivers and the rights of AI have come up.
Mariann Sullivan: Well, the rights of rivers have been a real thing for a long time,
Jasmin Singer: For sure.
Mariann Sullivan: I find that like not nearly as annoying as the rights of AI.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah, no, I guess you know what my point was here, speaking of sidestepping, that like the animals are completely being sidestepped in these conversations. It's so deeply entrenched in our society to eat and exploit animals, that even in these conversations that are somewhat new about the sentience and the rights of AI, for example, it's not even considered to bring up we actually know is sentient,
the animals.
Mariann Sullivan: I know. Like it has been all along and it's not a new thing, and it's not like they might become sentient and what do we do then? Like here they are. Hello. I mean, rivers, it's a different, it's a, it's a whole different theory because obviously it's not based on sentience. Nobody's saying rivers are sentient.
It's based on
different rights of nature kind of theory. So it's different, different theoretically, but the theory of of AI sentience and therefore rights is exactly the same as the theory of animal sentience and therefore rights. And I, I think it's insane. I really do.
Jasmin Singer: Just, it's such a... we, we as a society suffer from such a fundamental lack of imagination that it makes me think of what my, you know, beloved niece said when she was younger, a young teenager and someone brought up animal rights, and she's a really really smart kid she knows I'm vegan and, and she said, what do you mean animal rights?
Like they're gonna vote. And it's like, I just think, yeah, she was coming at it from like a however old she was at the time, 12, 13-year-old perspective. But the adult version of that is to just still kind of but up animal rights against the fundamental rights that humans would want, which are different because we are
Mariann Sullivan: Not all different. They're, they're, some of 'em are different. Some of 'em are not.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Yeah, It, it is mind boggling sometimes, and I'm glad this book exists. Um, I think that this book has the potential to reach a lot of people who would otherwise not be reached.
Mariann Sullivan: Well reach people, but also, you know, I mean it's an academic book and whenever a good academic book is published, it creates the opportunity for people who might be interested in it to suddenly think about teaching a course 'cause now the book exists. Um, and that's really valuable.
Jasmin Singer: Yes, indeed. Indeeders.. All right, well I think that's it for us for today. Murray is getting, uh, wiggly and I think that that's
Mariann Sullivan: That's a sign. That's the sign that it's over.
Jasmin Singer: He's wiggly because he doesn't like it when things touch him that are not me. And the cord of this headphone keeps like rubbing up
Mariann Sullivan: Aw.
Jasmin Singer: him and he's not okay.
Mariann Sullivan: Aww. Call the SPCA.
Jasmin Singer: Alright, hang on, let
Mariann Sullivan: Everybody out there call the SPCA. This is wrong.
Jasmin Singer: Don't, don't, don't do that. Don't do that. Please. For the love of God. All right. Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesday. How is rising anxieties going? Are you having fun?
Mariann Sullivan: Uh, Rising Anxieties is not fun. I mean, I hope, I try to make it a little fun to listen to, but it, it, it involves paging through a lot of, a lot of, um, industry publications to find stupid things that they're saying. So I'm not gonna say it's a good, it's a good time, but I hope I do find some things that are entertaining.
Jasmin Singer: I feel like you have your finger on the pulse of some really weird shit.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I sure do. Some really weird people and it gives you like an insight into humans that you would really prefer not to have.
Jasmin Singer: Maybe that's partly why you feel like you get to such dark places sometimes.
Mariann Sullivan: Well, that was, yeah, but usually I managed to resist it. I mean, it is actually pretty unusual that I do a deep dive like that. And I think it, it was, you know, it was time.
Jasmin Singer: It was time.
All right. We've got the Hen
Mariann Sullivan: Uh, can I just, can I say one thing? It's a little, I I don't wanna, I don't wanna hang on. But, um, one of the things I, I wrote about in that article that I wrote in the Cornell Law Review about, um, about, uh, open rescue
was how there's something about watching people rescue animals that frames the issue in a way that people can hear, or see or take in, rather than just seeing an animal suffering. It's like it, it's like... I think framing is really important in getting people to understand a story, and I think it worked on me as well, watching these people like risk, their risk themselves to do this.
Jasmin Singer: You're, you're reminding me of, and I know you saw this 'cause I sent it to you. I follow this Instagram account, account called Secret NYC, and it's just like quirky New York City things. And they posted this video of this guy in Central Park who jumped into a frozen pond to save a dog
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.
Jasmin Singer: who wound up being a coyote, who was like kind of in the middle of the pond, you know?
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. He was, he, he had fallen through the ice, I think, and he couldn't get out.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah. And the, and the guy went into the frozen pond to, to rescue me, rescued him, And he got into like, the hard part of the ice and the coyote started walking away. And like, all these people are watching and like having absolutely no idea what to do 'cause they're like, that's a coyote.
Like, I don't like, should I help? Or,
Mariann Sullivan: And he just jumped in.
Jasmin Singer: The coyote turns around to check on the guy
Mariann Sullivan: Aw.
Jasmin Singer: which was really sweet.
But, you're right, there was...
Mariann Sullivan: So there's something about that combination. I think it's really important.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah.
Mariann Sullivan: People, people are interested in other people's stories.
Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm. Yeah, you're right. I like
Mariann Sullivan: Including me. Including me.
Jasmin Singer: I mean, it's also
Mariann Sullivan: That's why I think that the open rescues are so powerful.
Jasmin Singer: That was about to say that. Exactly. Exactly. Alright, well has been lovely. What was I... what the hell was I saying? Oh yeah, The Hen Report is on Thursdays. That's this. That's when you and I, yada, yada at people. And the long form interview's on Fridays and bonus for Flock members comes out on Mondays.
Join us as a flock member at ourhenhouse.org/support. Don't forget, we're a podcast, we're on YouTube. Hit subscribe and like wherever you can. And check out our next episode, the Our Hen House interview coming your way tomorrow. Bye.
Mariann Sullivan: Bye.
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