How to Build Winning Animal Rights Campaigns: Grassroots Strategy with Penny Tehilah & Suzie Stork

Penimah Tehilah: Thank you so much. Thrilled to be here.

Suzie Stork: Yeah. Thanks for having us.

Jasmin Singer: Penny and Suzie, uh, are no strangers to the Animal Protection Movement or what we're trying to do here at Our Hen House to change the world for animals.

Penny is the Executive Director of the Animal Activism Collective, AAC, an animal rights organization that's focused on grassroots mobilization and activist training that has helped bring hundreds of new activists into the movement through its mentorship program, among other things, while supporting the launch of dozens of local grassroots groups across the United States.

Suzie is the Executive Director of the Coalition to abolish the fur trade, CAFT, one of the most successful anti-fur organizations with an international grassroots network spanning more than 50 cities. And we wanted to talk today about, uh, the power of campaigning and how to build, uh, an effective campaign.

Just a reminder before we get into this, for our listeners and our viewers, that the Our Hen House podcasts, it's a whole universe of podcasts, as I like to say. Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays, and the long form interview, that's this, on Fridays.

Bonus for flock members comes out on Mondays. And you also have some opportunities to join us live if you are in the flock at various levels. So check that out. We're on YouTube, we're on all pod catchers, so hit subscribe and like wherever you listen. So both of us, both Mariann and I started... well, I would say certainly I started in grassroots. But Mariann, you, I mean, you, you, to a very large extent, even though you came to animal rights by way of the law, you did quite a lot of protests as, as a protester.

Mariann Sullivan: Actually I, yeah. And I mean, that was a long time ago, really, probably in the nineties, but it, was, it was mostly fur. And, and I think the CAFT was around back then. I mean, CAFT has been around for a long time, but every week I would walk down the block, two, two blocks to Houston Street in Manhattan and, um, protest at a fur store.

That was kind of the first, first activism I did. Yeah. Circus protests. Circus is gone. Well, now they're not all gone, but Ringling Brothers is gone.

Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: Um, and fur is on the ropes, and that's what we're gonna talk about.

Jasmin Singer: And, and I, uh, when I worked for Farm Sanctuary like 20 years ago, used to run their anti foie gras protests and now there's that potential news in New York City regarding the sale of foie gras, you know, fingers crossed. So, like, it does work. I mean, it's very clear that it

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Unfortunately, that was like a million years ago

Jasmin Singer: I know

I, well,

Mariann Sullivan: it takes a long time.

Jasmin Singer: And I think that, that our two guests today are perfectly situated to talk about effective and ineffective campaigning.

So, Penny, let's start with you. Can you briefly describe for people who are unfamiliar with your work, what the Animal Activism Collective is?

Penimah Tehilah: So I would describe AAC in a nutshell as, um, probably the largest movement building organization, definitely in the US. So we specialize in recruiting and training activists to be the most effective animal advocates that they can be.

And we have a bunch of programs, and various ways that we do that. We have our mentorship program. Uh, so that's really for people who want like one-on-one training with a, with an activist. So people can, anybody can apply to become a mentee. They apply to the mentorship program. Um, they fill out a questionnaire, like what they're interested in, what their background is, and we pair them with one of our experienced mentors from all across the world.

Um, and that's a three month program and you can get like one-on-one, dedicated help to help you like achieve your activism goals. We also have a pressure campaign program. And I know like pressure campaigning and campaigns is mainly what we're gonna talk about today. And that's our newest program.

It really just launched this year. This is for people who want to learn how to organize their own pressure campaigns or get connected to the global or national pressure campaigns currently happening. They can apply there and they'll work with someone from AAC, uh, to get more like plugged into those networks.

We also do a, a number of other things. We have convergences, which are like big, usually like 10 day, activism events in a certain city. Um, but I'd say really, what we specialize in is, um, recruiting new activists into the movement, training them to get connected with groups like CAFT and, um, ICAW, International Council for Animal Welfare, which is another group we work with a lot just to really get networked in with the, um, most effective and impactful pressure campaigns happening today.

Mariann Sullivan: And Suzie, how about you? Can you just give us the brief overview of CAFT and its work before we get into details?

Suzie Stork: CAFT's mission is to end the fur industry once and for all, and finally. And our strategy thus far has been to, you know, run pressure campaigns, um, against companies, institutions, organizations that are still profiting or promoting fur.

Our campaigns are decentralized, so that means anyone anywhere can get involved, there's no need to ask permission. And CAFT's leadership, you know, we do the research, we pick the targets, we come up with the campaign materials, we disseminate information. And currently, like Jasmin mentioned, we represent grassroots groups in over 50 cities internationally. And these are boots on the ground activists participating in, in these campaigns. And, collectively they organize around 300 actions a year. Our network just keeps on growing. We have secured fur free policies from 18 companies affecting over a hundred brands.

And we've almost completely gotten real fur removed from luxury fashion. We haven't lost a single campaign yet. Oh, we actually just got the Emmy's to ban fur on the red carpet, which is really nice. It's a nice cultural win. Um, but yeah, I mean, we believe that in order to achieve animal liberation, you know, we need to start by building a model of how to shut down an industry.

Right now we're poised to do that with the fur industry. It's at its lowest point in, in history. And so our goal is to build a grassroots movement that is fighting to win, not just fighting to fight. So, you know, the grassroots movement has limited time and resources, and so we really just want the grassroots to focus our time and energy where we can make the most impact.

And we think the fur industry is one of those industries where we can really just shut it down. Like our generation of activists can be the ones to, to end it.

Mariann Sullivan: Is that like your, is part of your theory of change... it kind of is reminding me of the old SHAC days, but, but picking one target, in that case it was a company, but in your case it's an industry. And is part of your global big theory of change that if you can take down one industry, that will lead to the techniques and the ability to mobilize, to take down other industries as well?

Or when we get rid of fur, you're gonna retire.

Suzie Stork: No, we certainly won't retire. Um, yeah, you're correct. Um, right now, like we're building a blueprint for how to end an industry, it's not gonna end with fur. Fur is just like the most vulnerable target right now. Like I mentioned, it's at its lowest point in history.

Um, if we don't end it now, there's a possibility that it's gonna rebound. So yeah, that's where we're focusing most of our attention. And yeah, like once the fur industry is over and done with, hopefully, um, you know, within the next decade, um, we can move on to the next most vulnerable industry.

Jasmin Singer: That's so great to hear.

And you mentioned that there's a third organization that's part of your coalition as well, uh, International Council for Animal Welfare, but unfortunately they weren't able to be here today. Can either of you tell us a little bit about how they fit in?

Penimah Tehilah: Right now, um, CAFT, AAC, and ICAW have this coalition, um, that we've formed. we met each other early last year, um, and just started talking about how, uh, all three of us have a real, um, interest in the grassroots and how we all believe that local campaigning and the grassroots animal rights movement is intrinsic to animal liberation.

Uh, so I guess maybe the most succinct way that ICAW fits into the coalition is, um, AAC is really like the movement builder, um, for both ICAW and, CAFT, which are like the campaigning organizations. Um, so AAC kind of trains the activists and plugs them into both CAFT and ICAW. Um, CAFT, you know, does the fur, uh, campaigns and ICAW works exclusively with animal welfare commitments.

So cage-free commitments and shrimp welfare commitments. Uh, so these are just like two ways that the grassroots animal rights movement can kind of, uh, tackle both sides of the industries.

Mariann Sullivan: So before we get into the specific campaigns that you've joined forces on, I'd just like to get a little more general information.

Maybe, uh, Suzie, since you're actually doing the campaigns, maybe I'll ask you this, but please feel free to add Penny, um, anything you have. Can, can you, uh, just describe what a corporate pressure campaign is? Uh, I mean, I, I know they're not all the same, but just in general, like what kind of target you pick and how you talk them into doing what you wanna do?

Suzie Stork: A corporate pressure campaign is basically we focus exclusively on one company. We have one very specific ask. You know, in our case it's, you know, we're asking for a fur free policy. In ICAW's case they're asking for a cage-free commitment. Um, and so we focus all of our energy and time and resources on pressuring this company.

Um, we do this several ways, through secondary campaigns, tertiary campaigns. Um, so that means sort of, you know, disrupting and causing tensions amongst business relationships that, you know, company number one has with company number two until you know... they don't wanna deal with us. Um, you know, they, they don't want a bunch of protesters outside of their door, outside of their offices.

So our job as activists is to just build that pressure until they say, You know what, it's not worth it to deal in fur or it's not worth it to, um, you know, not have this cage free campaign. So let's just give it to them.

And like, part of the, the reason why our campaigns are effective is because we're running campaigns that are winnable. We know that like our asks are achievable. Um, activists trust our strategy and our results. I mean, the results speak for themselves. ICAW is a very successful organization. Like I mentioned, CAFT has been running campaigns that, uh, you know, they last sometimes days, sometimes a year, sometimes months.

Uh, but we, in the end, we always get what we're asking for.

Jasmin Singer: How do you decide which campaigns to take on Suzie?

Suzie Stork: A lot of research goes into it. Um, a lot, a lot of research. Um, probably, I don't even know how, how much, but we have a, a very talented team of campaigners, you know, in our leadership team, people that have been doing this for, for years.

And so yeah, like traditionally with CAFT, like we have focused on, you know, going against luxury designers, retailers. And part of the reason why is because like the luxury sector is really important to the fur industry. I mean, we just look for who's most vulnerable, um, who we think that we can move.

I think like the cultural relevance is also like really important. Like we've gotten fur free policies from Max Mara, Mark Jacobs, uh, most recently, Rick Owens. Um, these are designers that the fashion industry cares about. So like when they go fur free, uh, it's in the news and it makes the rounds, and everybody hears about it.

So, yeah, we try to, to make fur less and less culturally relevant.

Mariann Sullivan: So, Penny, what would you consider, I mean, I know you're, you're doing more of the training the activist than designing the campaigns, as you mentioned, but what, what do you consider the kind of elements of successful corporate campaign that, that you are eager to get, uh, people involved in? And, and how do you help them gain the necessary...

I, I assume you kind of feed people into, into other, uh, organizations and other

Penimah Tehilah: Yeah, that's right.

Mariann Sullivan: Um, so how do you, how do you help them get ready for that and get the necessary skills or maybe courage or whatever it is they need to succeed?

Penimah Tehilah: To the first part of your question, like the, something that, uh, makes a good campaign, um, I'd say something Suzie, uh, touched on and like, the biggest part is just something that's winnable.

Something that's like achievable and not such like an insurmountable goal. That's the thing that really sets groups like CAFT and ICAW apart, is they're doing things that are like winnable and achievable and like ways that we can, like tangibly move the needle forward for animals. Um, and when that's a, like a big concept that we teach activists when they start their own local pressure campaigns.

Uh, 'cause sometimes based on where an activist is in the world, if there's not a target, um, that's a part of these bigger national campaigns that they can hit, um, starting their own local campaign is actually a great way to teach them these skills. And then like to your question about how do we teach activists these skills necessary to take part? Um, our programs are a great way for that.

Like our mentorship program, um, just working one-on-one with an activist who has done a lot of this work before, who's participated in a lot of pressure campaigns, who can, uh, show them that, you know, attending a protest isn't as scary as it might sound. Um, and it's actually a lot less risky than a lot of people might think.

And then honestly just like getting your boots on the ground and getting out there and doing it, um, that is a great way to learn those skills. Um, and then of course our pressure campaign program, um, that's really... the whole reason we created the pressure campaign program is because, as AAC started getting like more involved with pressure campaigning over the last few years, we were kind of doing that work like informally of just teaching people how to make their own pressure campaigns. And we noticed there was like a lot of demand for that. Like a lot of activists wanted to organize their own pressure campaigns in their communities. Um, so we started like this formalized program where you can go and, uh, sign up and like step by step, learn everything it takes, from like research, to target selection, to becoming a good organizer and a good recruiter in your local communities.

Um, so yeah, the programs are really like a formalized way of learning all these skills.

Jasmin Singer: Hmm. That's so cool. Gosh, I wish this was available when I was a little tadpole activist, uh, and trying to learn the hard way by fucking up constantly. But let's

Mariann Sullivan: I agree, but I also wanna add too, this is just a comment, but uh, it, it just really another thing it doesn't remind me of when I was first starting to do, do protests and whatever is that you guys get along with each other. I mean, I dunno if that's hard, but it sure used to be hard. Everybody hated each other. It was very wearing.

Jasmin Singer: That's really funny. I mean, maybe they're like secretly absolutely loathe each. No, I'm kidding. You guys like each other. I can tell. Um, so let's talk a little bit about goals. Uh, 'cause you know, I think that this is a really important part of, of pressure campaigns, to clarify. And obviously it's frequently not possible to achieve everything we want with a pressure campaign, especially if you're limited to things that are winnable. With, with some, like fur, you can, for example, seek to have a retailer simply stop selling it. But Penny, there are other campaigns that have, essentially welfarist goals. So how do you decide goals that you're willing to go after, even if they will always fall short of what your campaigners actually want?

Penimah Tehilah: That's a really good question. And as, um, AAC has started to work like more with, um, the welfare groups, um, and specifically more with ICAW, that's something we've really had to think about. Um, and I think it really just comes down to like, what can we actually do for animals? Um, because at the end of the day, we don't want, you know, it to stop at more hens out of cages.

We want it to stop at, you know, the abolishment of the entire animal agriculture industry. That's what all of us want. You know, all of us are vegan, we all love animals, and like champion for their complete liberation.

But that is just not gonna happen in the timeline that we want it to. And what we can achieve is getting hundreds of millions of these animals out of cages and vastly improving their lives, like right now, or at least a lot quicker, um, than just, you know, screaming at these companies to completely shut down and that ultimately not happening.

Honestly, I, once we have kind of explained it to, uh, our audience and our activists like that, um, it was, you know, like, um, everyone pretty much got it. And I think it probably was such an easy transition, um, because we'd all been working on, um, fur and foie gras campaigns for so long. Ideally, um, we don't want it all to stop at like fur or foie gras.

Um, idealistically, we want all of these industries to end, but, you know, what can we do for animals right now is, you know, get these companies to ban fur, get these restaurants to remove foie gras from their menus. Um, and a lot of these wins can happen quickly and it like helps animals in the immediate. Um, so that's kind of like the main, uh, principle that we work with.

And then we just get more and more wins for animals and that kind of... I don't know if moves the goalpost is the right term. Um, but you know, once we just keep stacking up these wins, then we can go after like these harder, um, you know, more steep goals that, you know, that work more towards animal liberation.

Jasmin Singer: I just wanna jump in real quick with a follow up.

Sorry to step on you, Mariann. Uh, And this is like the most annoying question I'm going to ask today, just so that you're emotionally prepared, uh, because of the fact that this interview is for Our Hen House and like the listeners are very deep in this.

I'm going to ask you, Penny, to address the whole controversy that some people still have around single issue campaigning. And, um, just because it, I personally don't think our listeners, most of them, I don't think most of them would, uh, draw a line there, but it's very possible people they know would.

And, and what I mean is, uh, you know, for those of you listening and have no idea what I'm talking about, there are a subset of animal activists who of course feel like any one single campaign that's not like addressing the broader issue of animal exploitation is harmful. So, Penny, can you speak to that a little bit?

Mariann Sullivan: Or, or even if I can just refine the question a little bit. Or even a campaign, and I know, you know, like cage-free campaign, you know, anything that doesn't... and I think that's why there's been so much focus on fur and foie gras 'cause you can imagine getting rid of the whole industry. And this whole welfare versus rights controversy, uh, basically, uh, which has caused so much dissension within the movement and so much disagreement.

How do you, uh, how do you deal with it? I mean, 'cause I think people are very sincere when they bring it up. I mean, it's not, I mean, they're worried that there's, that we might be setting ourselves back. So how do you deal with that and that conversation?

Jasmin Singer: And It's funny that you think it's, that's a tag on to the same question because I actually think those are two very, very separate questions.

The single issue campaign and the welfare campaign issue. But I'll stop talking. Penny?

Mariann Sullivan: I'm sorry, I,

Jasmin Singer: No, no, no.

I, I just is, I don't think you confused it. I could see, I could see why you brought it up together, but I personally think they're very different. Penny, what do you think?

Penimah Tehilah: I think that's a great question.

Um, and honestly, I do kind of see a similarity in, uh, like that you were talking about Mariann, about the single issue campaigns and the welfare campaigns. And this is a concern that I had years ago. Like back when I first started activism,

I was doing, I got my start doing vegan outreach, So that was like exclusively what I did for years and my goal was to make everybody vegan. You know, that was, that was my goal. And even when I first started, when I first got introduced to, uh, fur, anti fur pressure campaigning, um, I kind of had this hesitancy. I'm like, I'm just asking these brands to remove fur from their shelves. What about the leather?

What about, you know, um, anything? Yeah, down exactly. Feathers, anything. Um, and an activist explained it to me like this, which I think, um, I also see this applied to the welfare campaigns and it's kind of the, uh, visual that I, um, used to explain people about why welfare campaigns are worthwhile too.

If you are standing here and there are two cages in front of you and there's an animal, like in both of these cages. One of the cages, uh, just has like a lock on it. It's a regular cage with a lock, um, and then the other cage has a lock on it, and it's inside of another big cage, which has a biosecurity, uh, panel.

And it's guarded by lasers and armed guards, and it's much more heavily reinforced. And in your hand, you have a pair of bolt cutters. What are you gonna do? Are you gonna go to the cage with just a lock that you can easily cut with bolt cutters and get that animal out? Um, or, and then maybe start working on the more heavily reinforced cage?

Or are you just gonna toil away at this cage that you really can't make any progress in and let this animal continue to languish in the cage that you could easily remove them from? Um, and of course, like the cage that you can easily open is, uh, in this case would be the welfare issue or the single issue pressure campaign.

Um, and the more heavily reinforced one is like all of animal agriculture. Um, so of course both of those animals equally matter. We want both of those animals outta those cages. But it's like, what can I do right now? How can I make a difference? You know, that's what I'm gonna do. And then once I have more skills, uh, then I'm gonna start working on that bigger, um, more heavily reinforced one.

Mariann Sullivan: Did did you wanna add anything to that, Suzie? Because I know it, you know, it's an issue we've all, we've all struggled with and come to our own conclusions about. Yeah.

Suzie Stork: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with what, what Penny just said. Um, and it kind of like goes back to something I said before. You know, like our movement, we, we do have like limited time and resources, so we might as well focus our energy where we can make the most impact.

Um, and you know, we've heard that before with like, you know, when we're going after companies asking for a fur free policy, it's like, oh, well why aren't you asking for leather? Or like, why aren't you asking for wool? It's like, well, those...they're not gonna give us anything. If we're asking for everything at once, they're just gonna laugh in our face.

Um, so let's ask them for what they can give us. Like, fur is not a huge, like just using fur as an example. Fur is not like a, doesn't make up a huge percentage of the companies that we're campaigning against, but they have a lot of cultural relevance. So like if they go fur free, it kind of says, says something.

It signals something to the fashion industry at large. Yeah. And I think there's also something to be said about, you know, just running these campaigns, the cage free campaigns, the fur campaigns, the foie gras campaigns, these campaigns are winnable. And I think that activists are learning skills as they go while they're working on these campaigns.

Um, so I mentioned before that CAFT's campaigns are, you know, decentralized, so anyone anywhere can, can join. Um, but that doesn't mean that these activists are left on their own. Um, you know, we're constantly talking and advising these groups. And our campaigning strategy is something that we want activists to learn.

We wanna teach them these skills. We want them to be able to run these campaigns on their own. And what we see is a lot of these local groups, especially when they're participating in these like international campaigns, not only are they part of like something bigger, but they really take ownership of their group's role in this large campaign.

Um, so I do think that these campaigns also serve as a training ground and help build leadership from the ground up. You know, this is like gonna be the next generation of activists and hopefully they'll be working on the fur industry anymore 'cause it'll be gone. But for the next issue, they're gonna have these skills.

Jasmin Singer: I have a follow up question for you, Suzie, and I'm, in order to ask it, I need to give you access to a very scary place, which is the inside of my brain. Uh, so here's what happened when you were talking, um, just now. This is this, these are the things that went through my head. First I thought of Ridglan and how 22, as of this recording, uh, I think 22 dogs were rescued.

Uh, it does, but there's thousands who weren't and I thought, but. but, those 22 were. And uh, you know, those are entire lives for those 22 individuals. Then I thought of the starfish story, which everyone has heard, which is like, you know, the, the boy walking on the beach and there's all these starfish and he's tossing them in back in the water one by one, and someone says, you'll never save all of them. And he says, well, I just saved that one. I botched the story, but that's more or less it.

And, and then you said something along the lines of, we wanna have, like, we wanna have the most effective campaign. We wanna be able to, you know, and I'm paraphrasing, impact the, the most animals possible. Is that starfish story, an example of affecting the most lives possible? Is, is grassroots work affecting the most lives possible?

And I am, I'm just, you know, full transparency, I hugely believe in this. I mean, this is, I'm, I'm loving this conversation. I love this topic. It's really important to Our Hen House as an organization. And I think it's the heartbeat, in many ways, of the animal protection movement.

But speaking as a naysayer for just a second, I think especially under this, uh, umbrella of effective altruism, for example, can you speak to the effectiveness of the, you know, bigger issue, like the monstrosity of animal exploitation and whether these, these campaigns make a dent.

Suzie Stork: I definitely think these campaigns are making a dent. I mean the, the grassroots animal rights movement is small. Um, you know, like part of the goal that we have with these campaigns, like I said before, is not just like ending an entire industry, which we can do, but it's building people power and mobilizing and getting more people involved.

Um, you know, with the Ridglan story, um. Obviously, like there's still thousands of dogs that were left in there, but 22 were saved. And I think when people see that, um, hopefully it'll, you know, open people's eyes to animal exploitation, to experimentation. Um, you know, the same thing with the fur industry.

I think it was in in 2020, um, there were like over a hundred million animals that were being killed for fur. Uh, in 2024, that number went down to around 20 million. So there's definitely things happening. You know, I think especially with the fur industry, uh, COVID-19 definitely, you know, hit the industry very hard, uh, especially the mink populations.

There was like high transmission infection rates. A lot of animals were, were culled. It was pretty horrific. So CAFT kind of like took advantage of that and hit the industry when it was down. So like we have to, like, as activists, like see these opportunities, see these vulnerabilities in these industries and take advantage of it.

Um, you know, COVID 19 initiated that decline, but our campaigns in the anti fur movement have accelerated that decline. I mean, Poland was the second largest producer of fur. Um, they just banned it, so I think that speaks volumes.

Jasmin Singer: Wow.

Mariann Sullivan: I think, I think kick 'em when they're down is one of the most important, uh, principles of activism.

So getting outta theory and, and who we should be targeting. Let's talk a little bit bit about tactics, specifically for working on corporate campaigns, like your decision making about what, what, what are these activists doing. I mean, obviously there are things that the big groups are doing that they're in the, maybe in the boardroom doing negotiations.

What is the role of grassroots activists in, in whatever kind of campaign, and how do you decide what works where and on whom?

Penimah Tehilah: The main benefit of grassroots activists, uh, grassroots activism is that grassroots activists are willing to do what these bigger groups cannot do.

Um, whether that be because of whatever restrictions they have imposed upon them, the random person on the street does not have those restrictions. Um, so they can do a lot of stuff that is deemed like riskier or just, um, you know, something like that. Like, uh, protesting or, um, disrupting big events. That's something our activists do a lot, um, is disrupting like the, um, you know, key targets at speaking engagements or important things where a, uh, crazy person screaming at them would otherwise embarrass them and encourage them to do the thing we're asking them to do.

Stuff like that, stuff that just the bigger groups cannot do, and I think that's like the, uh, the main benefit that grassroots activists bring. You know, that kind of just speaks to the larger benefit of grassroots activism is that it's decentralized and it's really just people that make up this movement.

And that is nearly impossible for our oppressors, whether that's the state or these companies, to repress, um, you know, larger groups with, uh, more funding and like bigger names behind them are much easier to repress than random people that that our oppressors and our adversaries don't really know.

Um, so that's, that's the main benefit I think.

Suzie Stork: I'll add to that too. You know, especially with CAFT and well also with ICAW, um, our, loud, they're disruptive, we're annoying. Like when we show up, we show up with megaphones, vuvuzellas, which are these very loud horns, uh, whistles.

Um, so, you know, when we're protesting outside of an event, a luxury store, an executive's house, we just try to be as annoying and disruptive as possible. Like we aren't there to outreach the public, we're there to put pressure on the target. Um, at the end of the day, like we want these companies to know that dealing with us is just not worth it.

Um, like when we campaigned against Conde Nast, the, the publisher of Vogue Magazine, um, Vanity Fair, Glamour, a bunch of other titles, it was a nine month campaign. Uh, a nine month campaign. We had, I think it was like, oh, it was definitely over a hundred protests. Um, 20 different cities were involved. We were protesting weekly.

At one point, towards the end of the campaign, we started protesting outside the homes of executives, um, and people that were working at Vogue, at Conde nast.

Um, Roger Lynch, who is the CEO of Conde Nast, um, was the, he was like the keynote speaker at a graduation ceremony in, uh, California, in LA. People shouted him off of the stage.

Activists found a way to get into the graduation ceremony, and as soon as he got up on stage, they started screaming at him. So it's, you know, we really like show up everywhere they are, and I think they know this by now. Um, you know, when we campaigned against New York Fashion Week, it was in December, November, November to December.

It was a 20 day campaign in 2025. Um, obviously we were asking them to ban fur on the runway. Uh, the board of New York Fashion Week was made up of designers that CAFT had already campaigned against, so they were familiar with our work. Um, activists showed up at the offices of New York Fashion Week. Some of them even went all the way up to like the, I think it was the 20th or 22nd floor, where they had their offices.

And um, you know, I think at that point our reputation was pretty much well known in the industry. I mean, the fashion industry is pretty small, they all talk with each other. So yeah, I think they knew what was coming and, uh, they gave us a policy pretty quickly.

Jasmin Singer: You're so badass.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, that relates to my question.

Jasmin Singer: That's all I wanted to say.

Mariann Sullivan: Like, I guess this question is for, um, is, is for Penny, but maybe also for Suzie, like, like this is very badass and not everybody is badass. Uh, but, you know, they may really, really wanna do something for animals.

And, uh, so how do you deal with people's fears? I mean, some people probably relish being out there, but a lot of people don't and are very nervous, especially if they haven't done it before, they're nervous of, of what could get them arrested. They're nervous about, about violence. Uh, how, what do you tell them?

How do you tell them to deal with that?

Penimah Tehilah: Uh, it's a great question. Um, and I think it's a very important one. The first thing I'd say is that there are many different roles at a protest. You don't always have to be the one screaming and in front and, you know, um, looking nuts. Uh, we have a lot of people who that's really not like their forte.

So maybe they, uh, stand on the outskirts. Uh, sometimes we have educational leaflets, um, even though like our goal is not to educate the public, um, you know, doesn't hurt, uh, to gain a supporter. And if that's, you know, something that an activist wants to do, uh, there's educational leaflets. Also it is embarrassing for the brand if people are going inside, like having these leaflets and being like, do you guys really do this messed up stuff?

Um, so that's something that people can do. Uh, of course you can always just stand there and hold a sign. Uh, you can do chalking on the ground. That's, uh, where it's legal of course. Uh, that's something we encourage people to do a lot. Um, so at a protest in and of itself, there are a lot of different roles.

Um, but of course for all these campaigns, there's always digital actions you can do, targeting these companies through like commenting or emails. Sometimes with these campaigns, there are maybe legislative components that you can do. Um, there's certainly legislative efforts, um, that you can do to kind of support these existing campaigns like, uh, legislative efforts against fur or against like foie gras or, um, you know, caged hens like more broadly.

Um, So even in the efforts to like support these specific campaigns, there are a lot of different, uh, tactics and things you can do.

Suzie Stork: I wanna add something to that as well. Yeah, I think that's just like the beauty of a, a pressure campaign. Um, there's so many things that need to get done. And there's so many roles.

Um, so like, you don't necessarily have to be like the one shouting on a megaphone, like running up to like the 20th floor and confronting executives. There's so many needs, uh, research, like I mentioned, researching these campaigns is such a time commitment. Um, and it's something that we try to teach activists.

You know, if hey, like there's a secondary campaign. There's like a, for example, there's a sponsor of, um, Milan Fashion Week and their headquarters is in your city, here's how to do research. Um, here's how to look for some of the events that they're gonna be at. Um, here's how to make a flyer.

So yeah, there's like many different things that people can do. Um, and I think that's just like, like I said, the beauty of a, of a pressure campaign. Video editing for instance, is another thing that we constantly need. And in terms of, you know, people being like nervous or scared to attend a protest, I do think that like, especially fur protests and like rowdier protests get, you know, a bad reputation and people think like, oh, I'm gonna get arrested. Um, it's not the case, um, most of the time.

Jasmin Singer: Mm.

Suzie Stork: Not all the time. Most of the time when you're standing on a sidewalk, on public sidewalk holding a sign, um, you know, you're, it's your right to do that, you're well within your right to, to protest.

It's the same thing with residential picketing. You know, in New York City and in many cities and many states, um, it's perfectly legal as long as you're on a public sidewalk. And, you know, we, we educate the activists and you know, we try to be there as much as possible. Uh, we also have Know Your Rights trainings. Um, AALDP actually just offered that to us, um, which was really important.

Mariann Sullivan: And

Just, just to... that's the Animal Activism Legal Defense Project, right? Yeah. Doing great work. Yeah.

Suzie Stork: Absolutely amazing. They're a really wonderful resource, um, for the grassroots movement. And yeah, like I think the more educated, uh, activists are, um, you know, the stronger our movement is.

You know, we always try to tell people like, yeah, it's, it's uncomfortable like standing, uh, outside of a store, standing outside of someone's house, yelling at them. Like, but it, it's, we have to be uncomfortable. We have to be okay with being uncomfortable because what's happening to these animals is some of the worst things I've ever seen.

Like, look at footage from a fur farm. footage from foie gras, um, a foie gras farm. Look at footage of hens in these cages. Um, these animals experience way more discomfort. Um, we can give up an hour a week and stand outside and yell a little bit.

Mariann Sullivan: I, I totally agree, except the one thing I don't necessarily agree with is that, is that I'm not sure it's that hard to be out there.

It's hard to get yourself out there, but once I think people are out there, frequently, the adrenaline can really, uh, make it not exactly fun, but, but, but empowering, um, in a good way.

And I, I always remind people too, like, because people are worried about other people at the protest doing something illegal. I mean, you can leave if that happens. You know, you're not like, if, so it never, virtually never happens. If it did, you don't have to stay there. If the cops tell you to do something that they have no right to tell you to do, you can do it anyway, and that will avoid you getting

Jasmin Singer: That brings up

Mariann Sullivan: not inevitable that you're going to get arrested

just because you go to a protest.

Jasmin Singer: do you have a legal observer on site?

Suzie Stork: We don't usually, um, maybe sometimes for like, some of the larger events like the convergences, maybe in the past we've had. Um, but uh, Animal Activism Collective actually offers a really good like resource, um, on police liaison training. That's something that we teach, um, a lot of the activists to do.

So at every protest, at every event, even the local groups, um, there should be at least one police liaison. So that's the only person who speaks with law enforcement. They communicate, um, you know, whatever they're telling to the activists, make sure everyone is safe.

Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm. That's so cool. I texted Mariann last night, uh, and I said that this song was in my head.

And it was, don't get caught in a bad hotel, but it's from the, uh, it's, it's like, whoa. Don't get caught in a bad hotel. It's from Bad Romance, obviously. Uh, this, this reference, and I swear I'm coming back to this interview in one second, just come with me here. This reference is from a protest that happened probably in 2009 ish at a hotel in San Francisco that had bad labor, uh, practices. It was very exploitative of its workers. And so there was this coalition, that,

Mariann Sullivan: It's when flash mobs were really

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. There was like, I mean, flash mobs are still a thing, but they really had a moment

at that time. And, uh, and. it was, it was just like someone checking into the hotel. There's a video of this. There someone checking into the hotel and saying like, um, what? Um, you do what to your workers? This is a bad hotel. And then someone started, just one person started singing that song and then someone else joined. And suddenly all of these musicians come into the lobby of this hotel and start playing like there was tuba and like, and I mean, it was just the most amazing thing.

And it worked. Like the, the, the protest worked for all of these hotels

Mariann Sullivan: Because the vi because the video went viral.

Jasmin Singer: Um, and so now it's like, I don't know, 17 years later, 18 years later, and I still think about it and I text Mariann that I can't hear that song with the right lyrics. I can only hear it with the bad hotel lyrics.

And so it makes me think of, uh, theater as an element of protest. Do you think of street activism as a form of street theater and are there lessons to be learned from theater, Penny?

Penimah Tehilah: Oh, totally. Uh, I was a big theater kid, uh, when I was younger, and I totally feel like a lot of what I'm doing at a protest is like a big act.

Uh, you know, I mean, not only because if you're taking a video, like you want the video to look engaging, you know, there's a lot of things we do like teach people to, if someone's giving a speak out, you know, to crowd around them. And then, you know, the speak out itself is uh, you know, sometimes really theatrical 'cause it's meant to engage.

Um, but yeah, I think there's a lot of elements, um, I hear a lot of people talk about, um, the anger, you know, that they're like showing. I think when you do this type of work, like multiple times a week or even like every week, uh, you know, you can just get a little bit apathetic maybe, or it's hard to like garner yourself to get out there and have the same like, uh, passion.

Um, I don't know if I necessarily relate to that. I'm driven by like a lot of intense emotions. So, uh, you know, that anger is usually fresh on the surface.

Jasmin Singer: Are you a Scorpio by any?

Penimah Tehilah: I'm a Gemini. but that doesn't anger too many people.

Jasmin Singer: Me too. Okay.

Now that we know the astrological signs at play here continue,

Penimah Tehilah: I'm glad we got that outta the way.

It, is very important. Uh, yeah. I think a lot of it is just, you know, acting and like, uh, hamming it up. Yeah, making sure your targets really feel the sense of urgency for them to act that you're trying to convey. Um, definitely disruptions always feel like a big, like when you were, uh, describing that scenario, I was like, that is an amazing idea for a disruption that we have to steal and use one day.

Um,

But yeah, I do feel like it's all sometimes like one big thing. Um, oh, and then sometimes, you know, to get into a place, like to do a disruption, maybe you do have to do a little acting to like, get through the door or to get past security or something. And that's always, I always like that part.

Jasmin Singer: Well, I mean, just I was, I'm, I was also a theater kid, uh, and to some extent I'm still a theater kid in a 46-year-old body.

Uh, but I totally agree that the, the yes and mentality, like, and for those of you who don't know what I mean, just from improv, you have to, in an improv, say yes and or you've ended the improv. Uh, the, the yes and mentality is so important in activism and in protesting especially, and even just, uh, communication techniques, like the very basic communication techniques, whether it's with the cops or another, uh, you know, a protestor or an activist that you're training.

So I can definitely see the parallels there. And, and that makes me think a little bit also about mentorship, which obviously is something you're very passionate about, Penny. Uh, can you just talk a little bit more about mentorship and its role and what you do?

Penimah Tehilah: Sure. Um, first I'd say like the whole reason that, um, AAC started, AAC used to be called Animal Activism Mentorship. Um, so back in like 2020 when we first started our, um, like our first program that we ever did was our mentorship program. And it really stemmed from, you know, a lot of us who first were involved in, um, AAC at the time. Uh, we were from like the South. We didn't know a lot of other activists or maybe even any, we were the first activists that we knew.

Um, so we were just like a, um, gap that we saw in the movement was a way for everyone to kind of get connected and learn from one another. Um, and I think that's the most beneficial part of mentorship. We get a lot of people who apply who are from, um, really small areas in the world, um, and who maybe don't have a lot of other experienced animal rights activists that they can look up to.

And when they sign up to our program, not only do they get connected with like their specific mentor, um, who, you know, all our mentors have been doing activism, uh, for years and years and, you know, who usually specialize in like one form or another. Um, but they also just get integrated in with like the entire animal rights community all across the world.

So yeah, I think that that's extremely important to be able to talk through your process with somebody and to learn from someone and for someone to, um, like show you what mistakes they made and prevent you from spending years like toiling away and making those same mistakes. Um, it was certainly very, very important for me, uh, when I first started getting involved in activism.

Um, and I mean, we just, we see like the mentorship program is really only three months, like, give or take, and people go from like having done no activism at all to being like organizers in their own community, just from working with other people and getting feedback and, you know, learning from other people's mistakes and things like that.

Mariann Sullivan: I, I imagine mentorship is part of this, this issue that I'm, that I wanted to discuss before we let you go, because I think it's such an important one for animal activists and it's, well, this word burnout. I don't like the word burnout. Like, you know, I, I think people use the word burnout when they just don't wanna do it anymore for some reason.

But emotional trauma is real. I mean, people being overwhelmed with the grief and, and, you know, sometimes paralyzing them, sometimes just ruining their lives. So, um, how do you help people deal with that? Is mentorship part of that?

Penimah Tehilah: Definitely. I think community is extremely important. It's like foundational to being in the animal rights community, um, sustainably and for years and years.

Um, I'd say one thing that we do that I think really, really help with that is our convergences. Um, this is, we like provide housing for people, um, and food for people. And we basically all live together in a house for 10 days.

Um, and we do activism. We do like back to back actions all day, every day. Um, but then we come home, we usually cook a meal together.

We hang out, we get to know each other. Um, you know, people are meeting new people for the first time. I've met, like, some of my best friends that I still have today at convergences. Um, community is so, so important. Um, you know, like in the mentorship program and in our other programs we teach people, um, uh, you know, a good way to recruit activists to do activism is by starting things like meetups in your own community.

Um, and just having these like communal events that people are drawn to, um, 'cause that's really what keeps you in the movement longer, is finding friends and people you can connect with and having a good time while you're doing this very, very difficult thing. Um, you know, and going up against like the longest standing oppression that has ever existed, um.

I will say, um, it, one thing, um, our coalition is doing for the first time this year is organizing a summit, the Grassroots Animal Rights Summit. Um, and that is also a great way for you to meet new community and new animal rights activists. Uh, it's in DC this year and the goal is to get animal rights activists from all across the US and wherever else, uh, to come together and learn skills and also just like meet one another and form lasting relationships and lasting friendships 'cause that really is like so integral to activism.

Suzie Stork: I just wanted to add something. um, and just like touch on the convergences because I think it's like something so valuable that AAC offers, um, you know, it's really an opportunity for people to make community and meet people and skill share.

And a lot of the convergences, we all like experience things together. Like we work on campaigns. Uh, we won a major campaign, anti fur campaign. Uh, we won the Mark Jacobs campaign during the convergence. Um, and I think it was like on the last day of the convergence in 2024, yeah.

Penimah Tehilah: Yeah.

Suzie Stork: And I mean, just to see like everybody there was just like so excited. Like, um, you know, some of these people they live in, I don't know, like a, like Penny mentioned, like a a small city or a small town. Um, they don't have a lot of international targets. They come to the convergence and they participate in these campaigns and these protests and right before they go home, like they just won a major campaign, like they were part of this, of this win.

And um, I think that's also, you know, something to touch on with like burnout. Um, I think that's why these campaigns are important because these activists are seeing the tangible results of their activism. They're a part of it, like they're seeing these wins. Um, in my opinion, I think that sort of reduces, uh, burnout a little bit when you are actually like seeing the results of your activism and your hard work.

We also in LA uh, was it in January? So CAFT has a, a campaign against Milan Fashion Week, which is like one of the big four fashion weeks, and we've been going after their sponsors. Um, so there was like a bunch of different cities who were campaigning against, uh, Wella, which is a haircare company, and DHL shipping company all over the world.

I mean, there were activists in like Japan, uh, all over Europe, the United States. And then we all got together in LA and we started protesting, uh, Wella, which has a headquarters there. And then we also did like a few DHL protests and during the convergence, both of them dropped their sponsorships of Milan Fashion Week, so um, it was really cool. It was really incredible.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Suzie Stork: Really nice when activists get to, uh, just share that win together.

Mariann Sullivan: How often, how often are the convergences?

Penimah Tehilah: We usually have, um, like two to three a year. Uh, this year we have two in the US and then in like, um, two weeks we're having one in London.

Uh, it's our first one outside of the US. Um, but a couple times a year we try and do one like East coast, West coast, US ish. Um, and then hopefully this year forward, we'll always have one in Europe as we like expand more globally.

Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: They're not virtual at all? They're completely in person?

Penimah Tehilah: No. Yeah, they're in person,

Mariann Sullivan: is kind of the point.

Jasmin Singer: I have, I, I wanna check in about, uh, some upcoming campaign ideas you might have. Suzie, uh, I, I mentioned earlier that when I was first starting out and I was a campaigns coordinator for Farm Sanctuary, which had a campaigns department at the time, and I was based in New York City.

Um. I, I, inherited a campaign when I started at Farm Sanctuary, was already working on this campaign to stop this store from selling foie gras. And it, it quickly became apparent that there was no plan around this campaign. Uh. It, it was, but every Sunday, the same, the same activists would come with their signs and the body cam with the footage and stand in front of this particular store on the Upper West side and, and leaflet and ask people to fill out comment cards and drop them in the comment box, which the supermarket, that was never directly communicated with, would immediately rip up.

And so I made the difficult decision to, to not have Farm Sanctuary spearhead that campaign anymore, but to like embolden if activists still wanted to come on Sundays, you, keep, you know, keep the signs, use our materials, feel free to keep doing it. It was an education campaign, I think. It was not a corporate campaign 'cause there was no ask or communication or strategy.

Um, that decision did not go over well with the activists, uh, at the time. But it allowed for us to focus on more strategic campaigns. Um, tell me a little bit about what campaigns you are thinking about launching if you, if you can.

Suzie Stork: Uh, well, we actually have two, uh, right now. Um, which is not the norm for us, because we're a very small organization.

We only have three staff and 50 plus cities are working on these campaigns.

Mariann Sullivan: It's crazy.

Suzie Stork: We just launched, uh, it was in January, so yeah, like I mentioned, Milan Fashion Week. Um, so again, this is on the heels of New York Fashion Week going fur free. London Fashion Week is already fur free. Um, so we're trying to get the big four.

Um, and part of the reason why fashion weeks are so important, it's because, you know, this is where trends are born, reborn. Um, we are just really trying to get fur out of all of these places, out of the fashion publications, the fashion weeks, uh, retailers. We wanna make it very hard for fur to be in fashion and to be sold.

Um, so yeah, we launched Milan Fashion Week. Um, we do have like a really good network in Europe. Uh, we work with a group called Abolish Fur Worldwide. Um, so they are kind of like connected with all the local grassroots groups. And we just organized a week of action in Milan during the, um, the women's presentations.

Um, so Milan Fashion Week is, is, it's a huge event. Lots of, uh, press coverage, lots of people attend, celebrities, all of that. Um, so yeah, it was really successful. Um, and it was good for mobilizing in Europe. We had, uh, I think there was like over 40 activists came together for this week. They were protesting three times a day outside of the fashion shows.

They did some disruptions. We got really good media coverage too. And, yeah, it was wonderful. Um, I think there were like over 10 different European cities that were represented at the convergence. But yeah, so like part of our strategy is going after the sponsors of Milan Fashion Week. So like I mentioned, um, Wella was a sponsor, not anymore.

DHL was a sponsor. Um, right now they have, uh, this like Italian wine organization, Franciacorta. Um, so we're campaigning against them, a couple of their other sponsors uh, yeah, I mean, I think we're just gonna keep this campaign going as long as we can until we, we get that fur free policy. I think it'll be really monumental, um, if Milan Fashion Week goes fur free.

So, yeah, we have that campaign. There's I think over 15 cities currently involved in that. Um, and that's with like regular actions, monthly and there's many opportunities to get involved. So if anybody wants to please reach out, um, there's opportunities from to get involved in Europe, in the United States, in Canada.

Jasmin Singer: How can they reach out to you and get involved with your efforts?

Suzie Stork: So they can visit our website, abolishfur.org. They can also reach out to us on Instagram caftusa. We have, uh, an email action@caftusa.org. Feel free to email us, sign up to our mailing list. Uh, the link is on the, on the website.

And we publish like action reports, campaign updates, and just like ways for different people to get involved. So the mailing list is definitely important.

And then the other, uh, big campaign that we have right now, um, is against Etsy. Um, so I'm

Jasmin Singer: Tell me more why?

Suzie Stork: Yes. Um, so it's an Etsy, as you all know, e-commerce online marketplace.

Um, we kind of like started just thinking outside of the box. 'cause like I said, we, we normally campaign against, you know, luxury fashion, luxury fashion designers, institutions, publications. Uh, we were like, you know, let's, let's start thinking about like, where else is fur being sold? And then we stumbled upon Etsy and they just have like thousands of listings with real fur, and it's from furriers to trappers, like pelts.

And Etsy just seemed like a vulnerable company. Like they claim they care about, like sustainability. They have this whole like handmade ethos. What we found is that a lot of the fur products, uh, that are listed on there, are coming from drop shippers.

So, it's like the same products that can be found on like, uh, Ali Express DHgate. It's a far cry from Etsy's handmade ethos. Um, so yeah, I mean, it's just, I think this campaign is like, when we win, it'll be super impactful. It'll just leave the fur industry with fewer places to sell its product, um, or its products.

And e-commerce is a really critical, and I think largely untapped frontier in, you know, the fight to end the fur trade. So I, I think it'll also set a precedent for campaigning against like similar platforms and

Jasmin Singer: It makes me think of like Poshmark and Thread up and makes me wonder what their policies are.

It's really, really creative thinking, unlike the grocery store, uh, campaign I inherited. But it's good to know that there's like a lot of, uh, you know, just so, so much brain power that's going into this. I cannot believe you're a team of three. That's incredible.

Mariann Sullivan: That's crazy.

Suzie Stork: Three and we have, volunteers.

Jasmin Singer: Of course. I get it. But you know. Mariann, you were gonna say something.

Mariann Sullivan: So Penny, I just, before we go, I, I, I'd like you to explain to people who are listening, who are thinking, well, maybe I could do something, but aren't sure whether they should, why grassroots activists are so important to the movement.

Uh, people who, who don't work in the movement, who, you know, are not looking to change jobs. How can they get involved, not just in donating, and why should they, um, but in campaigning? And in particular, like I, I'm not sure anybody has this misconception, but this is not just for the young folks, um, uh, you know, look at any animal rights protests and, and I'm proud to be a boomer woman and, and there are plenty of boomer women out there all the time.

So it's not for any particular class of people or it, it runs the gamut, right? And, and what is the value of grassroots activism? Just the whole picture.

Penimah Tehilah: Yeah, I'd say, uh, grassroots activism is integral to animal liberation. We will not achieve animal liberation without grassroots activism. It won't be achieved by one group or one person. It's gonna be achieved by, um, a bunch of people all across the world who answer to nobody but the animals.

Um, and I think, you know, that's really the most important thing to take to heart and why the grassroots is so important is the grassroots are almost impossible to extinguish, uh, and to repress because it's just like I have said before, it's just made up of individual people driven by passion, um, and who answer to only the animals and, you know, acting independently.

Um, that's the thing that makes all of our organizations, um, and the campaigns of CAFT and ICAW, um, so unique and so winnable. It's just people taking action of their own accord. Um, I think Suzie, you know, can attest like they, CAFT doesn't ask their activists to do anything, they just announce the campaigns and then individual people take action, uh, as they're inspired.

Um, and that's really what's going to achieve animal liberation. I mean, we've seen this across every social justice movement in history. Um, and, you know, the animal rights movement is no different. Like, it, it, it is just going to take a, uh, strong, educated, passionate, grassroots activist base, um, to achieve animal liberation.

Um, and the other part of your question, yes, it's not just young people or it's not just students or one demographic of people. Um, I'd say some of our best activists, specifically in New York, I can think of a bunch of different activists who are older, um, who are retired, and to have the time to come out to every single action.

And, you know, they're the most reliable, the most, sometimes the most passionate, um, you know. Uh, the most lively. Um, yeah. Um, uh, people, of, we've had, uh, people bring their kids, uh, if they can handle that kind of thing, to actions, and that's wonderful to see. There are people across like every demographic, every class, every what have you, you know, coming to protest. Like they are for everybody.

Um, so yes. Is there any part of that question that I missed? I feel like I did.

Mariann Sullivan: I, I don't think so. But I did want you to add, like, how can people find you? And how do you suggest they get started

Penimah Tehilah: Yeah,

Mariann Sullivan: you know, getting involved in, in, in what you're doing?

Penimah Tehilah: Yes. Uh, thank you. Uh, I'd say visiting our website, uh, animalactivismcollective.com is the best way.

You can see like a list of all of our programs, and you can look and see what program is the best for you. Uh, the mentorship program, the pressure campaign program. Um, we also have a map on our website that lists all of our chapters that already exist that you can go to and find if there's an existing chapter near you. You don't even have to go through AAC, you can just contact your local chapter near you and get started doing pressure campaign activism.

Um, you also

Mariann Sullivan: But if, but if there isn't a local, uh, a local chapter, they can contact you directly.

Penimah Tehilah: Yes. Uh, you can sign up for our pressure campaign program or the mentorship one. Uh, the signup forms are there. It walks you through exactly what the programs entail. Um, on our website you can also see, uh, another thing AAC does, we're really passionate about, like free educational content.

So we have like almost 200 educational workshops and live streams that we've hosted, you know, that are free and accessible. You can see what our next convergence is gonna be, um, you can see more information about the summit, The Grassroots Animal Rights Summit that ICAW, CAFT and AAC are organizing this May.

Um, yeah. Our website has everything.

Jasmin Singer: I, was trying so hard to find the reference, but I couldn't. But I, Rachel Maddow was interviewing someone, Mariann, about, uh, some of the No Kings protests, and said something in a pejorative way. He, the guest said something in, in a demeaning way about like the grandmothers showing up at the protests, kind of with an eye roll.

And Rachel said something like, I would be careful of the grandmas, or something like that. And

Mariann Sullivan: Seriously, you go to protests about anything and older women are gonna be a good portion of the people who are out there fighting.

Jasmin Singer: A hundred percent. Uh, but this has been so inspiring. Thank you so much to our guests today.

Penimah Tehilah of the Animal Activism Collective and Suzie Stork of the Coalition to Abolish the Fur Trade. You're so inspiring. This has been just a breath of fresh air. And thank you to those of you listening and watching, tuning in.

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