Rose Patterson on Rescuing Beagles, Disrupting the Grand National, and Building Animal Rising into a Movement

Most recently, Rose was found not guilty for rescuing beagles from MBR Acres, which is a breeding facility for animal testing. And I'm so excited that you're joining us today. Rose. Welcome to Our Hen House.

Rose Patterson: Hey, I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Jasmin Singer: So we have a lot of questions before we jump into them, I do wanna remind our listeners and our viewers that the Our Hen House podcast can now be viewed and listened to several times a week. Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays, and the long form interview, that's this, on Fridays. Bonus for Flock members comes out on Mondays.

And today is actually our monthly flock Friday, where we invite members of our flock to join us for an interview and do a q and a afterwards with the person we're interviewing. And this is a very special one. So if you're listening to this or watching this and you're interested in joining us, check out ourhenhouse.org/support.

Don't forget to hit subscribe and like wherever you listen or watch. So Mariann, why don't you kick us off?

Mariann Sullivan: I'd love to. Rose, welcome. Uh, I think probably a lot of our listeners are not in the UK. Some of them are, but uh, they might not be as familiar with the work of Animal Rising as the people you often talk to. So can you just kind of give us the overview of the history and, and then we'll get into more detail and, and obviously we wanna talk about all the campaigns, but we're really wanna find out what, what happened with MBR acres 'cause it's a fascinating story.

Rose Patterson: Yeah. Animal Rising was originally set up as Animal Rebellion back in 2019. And it was a sister organization to Extinction Rebellion, and it was really formed as a response to Extinction Rebellion, not actually talking about one of the key causes of climate change, which is animal agriculture.

So I'm sure many of you have heard about Extinction Rebellion before. They became a global movement, um, to yeah, all around like climate change and, um, yeah, Animal Rebellion was really trying to inject this message into the climate movement and specifically Extinction Rebellion around, yeah, the need to talk about animal agriculture, its effect on climate and the environment, um, but also of course, animals as well.

And over time we've shifted from that more of a climate message. So beginning I'd say it was probably like 80% climate focused, 20% animals. And over time we've shifted to probably more like 80% animals and um, 20%, um, climate and environmental issues. So yeah, we're very much, um, focused on animals now, and we, I think we achieved a lot of our aims in the beginning.

We're actually only ever supposed to be a short term campaign, and now it's like over six years, or almost seven years later, still here. Um, and our aim is to create a world where humans and animals can live side by side in harmony, where animals are free, no longer locked in cages, no longer dying in slaughterhouses. Our vision is a plant-based food system and rewilding, all of the freed up land that the end of animal agriculture would create. So we do this through mostly through, well beginning, it was all through direct action. So again, using non-violent direct action. All of our projects, all of our campaigns are rooted in nonviolence and it's something that's really, really important to us.

So inspired by mass movements that have won through using peaceful nonviolent means. Um, and yeah, so as you mentioned earlier, we, we did things like disrupting McDonald's distribution centers, dairy distribution centers, and, um, now we're focusing on more long-term campaigns as well as, yeah, using nonviolent direct action.

We're using kind of like bold campaigning tactics as well. So, um, yeah, most recently we've been, well, we're beating our previous records. So in 2024, we did the largest investigation in UK history exposing 45 RSPCA assured farms. This year, um, in the summer, we're gonna expose... I dunno if I can say, if I'm allowed to say how many yet, but it's a significant amount more than that, um, of, yeah, factory farm investigations basically.

And, um, yeah, so that's like our next project, but we'll be bringing back more nonviolent, direct action, more animal rescues and yeah, I think one of the best things that we've ever done, and one of the highlights of my life is the beagle rescue. I think that's the thing that I'm most proud of today.

So, yeah. Um, and that's, so that's Animal Rising, but we also have a network of other projects that over time we've, um, seeded so as well as, yeah, this like nonviolent direction campaigns. We've also seeded Plant Based Universities, Plant Based Schools, Communities Against Factory Farming, um, Vegan Support The Farmers, Lawyers for Animals.

So yeah, we've actually become this kind of mini ecosystem of organizations that all interact with each other, collaborate and things. But yeah, my main focus is on Animal Rising, but also supporting those other projects. So, yeah, there's quite a lot going on, basically.

Jasmin Singer: Okay, well the, there's so much to untangle there, but because of what you said you're most proud of, let's get into detail on MBR Acres. Why did you decide to focus on this one facility?

Rose Patterson: Yeah. Well, in the UK, that is the only facility that breeds beagles for animal testing, and it has a long history in that the UK animal rights movement, as well, as being this symbol of animal cruelty. And it's, yeah, it was originally Huntington Life Sciences, which many of you may have heard of SHAC. So Stop Huntington Animal Cruelty.

Um, yeah, originally back in the nineties, there were lots of campaigns and people ending up in prison for campaigning against Huntington Life Sciences. And yeah, they actually became MBR Acres. And MBR is Marshall Bio Resources. It's actually a US company, so in the US there's a massive MBR breeding facility.

But yeah, this facility in the UK, they breed around 2000 dogs a year. And, um, yeah, they're sent to labs all over the country and actually they still send puppies back to the lab that's actually my hometown. So this is actually something that's like quite close to my heart. So I'd learned as a young child that there was an animal testing lab down the road from where I lived.

I don't know if I would've been here today if I hadn't known about what was going on in that lab. And so, yeah, my whole journey into animal rights kind of started there when yeah, I saw stickers around my hometown town of animals, dogs and cats being tested on these.

Yeah, you can imagine graphic images of, of dogs and cats, um, yeah, being experimented on and then wanting to do something about it, because I felt something really deep inside me. I was like, this is clearly not right. And I remember telling my mom, I want to go and protest. And, um, I remember doing talks at school about it and yeah, telling other kids that, yeah, we shouldn't be buying products that are tested on animals, telling my parents to boycott certain products.

And then, as I grew older, I started doing more and more campaigning and then eventually found myself at an occupation. I actually did an occupation before the rescue, so I occupied MBR acres with about 20 others, six months before the rescue, and saw with my own eyes what was happening to those beagles, the conditions they were living in.

And yeah, I was like, I cannot, I cannot just leave and never come back. So, um, yeah, went back exactly six months later and rescued puppies from there.

Mariann Sullivan: I should mention too that Marshall Bioresources is down the road from where Jasmin and I live right now. So there's an awful lot of synergy going on here, and I do understand that some people are thinking of doing some things about that. I certainly hope so. Um, but getting back to the, to the story at hand. So you did an occupation, the first step was an occupation, you just went in and witnessed.

Is that, is that what that was? And then were there, were there one rescue or two?

Rose Patterson: Yeah. So yeah, the timeline is a little bit confusing. So on the 19th of June, 2022, yeah, myself and about 20 others, we just climbed the fence in broad daylight. Our aim was just to put like a big banner on the ground and we had a drone, um, so that the end animal testing, we had a drone getting footage, but actually when we got in there, it was all quite calm.

And so we were able to walk around. We could see they didn't have proper windows, but just little vents. And that's where we were able to see and film the puppies inside. And then eventually we were arrested. Um, but yeah, it was actually the following day, Ben, Bo and Dan, so three people, decided to go back the following morning from that occupation.

They did a rescue. Rescued five beagles, and then six months later, myself and 17 others went back again and rescued another 18 puppies with Love and Libby. Um, I can tell you about them. Were taken by the police. So Love was the puppy that was taken from my arms by the police, um, as I was trying to rescue him.

And yeah, there was a whole, whole protest around that and public outcry for them to be released back to, um, yeah, to the public or back to Animal Rising. But yeah, unfortunately the police decided to send them back to MBR Acres. So yeah, there was occupation, one rescue where three people rescued five peoples, and six months later, 18 of us rescued another 18.

And then, yeah, Love and Libby sent back to MBR. So

Mariann Sullivan: It, it was 18 that you, that got out and then 11 were sent back and so, so... it took me a moment to do the math on that.

Rose Patterson: Only two were sent back. So 18 were saved.

Mariann Sullivan: I'm glad I clarified that. So 18 got out, then two were sent back, and so a total of 16 from that rescue?

Rose Patterson: Um, well, it was 18 plus the two, so, yeah. Sorry. Confusing, but yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: The math right, but, but it does seem, um. So I mean, without getting overly graphic, but graphic enough, you know, we all have to hit that balance of, not overly graphic, but graphic enough to tell the story of what these animals go through.

Can you tell us about what you found when you went in?

Rose Patterson: The only sheds I saw were, um, yeah, basically the sheds that these long, long buildings where there were rows and rows of hundreds of puppies in these concrete cages. So the floor is completely concrete. And then they've got like metal, like wire mesh, um, around them. And there's about five or six puppies in each cage.

I believe when I did the occupation, I could see a mother like cowering in the corner as well. She looked older and really defeated. Like I think that was one of the things that really struck me from the occupation was like seeing her sitting in the corner, um, and I told myself, yeah, I had to go back. And then, yeah, feces all over the floor.

Urine, I mean, they sprinkle like a small amount of, um, like sawdust on the floor to try and like soak it up. But yeah, it's really nothing. There's no beds. There's just like a ball hanging from a chain in each enclosure for like enrichment for them to have fun and a barrel, like an empty barrel lying on its side as well as like another form of enrichment.

And so yeah, those were, that was what I saw. And I also knew before I went in, and it's been widely documented as well, um, we know that they have a bleeding license from the government. So the government have given them this bleeding license. So at MBR, even though they're not doing the actual testing themselves, they do, um, drain blood from puppies, um, to be sent off for scientific experiments as well.

And sometimes that's without anesthetic and sometimes it's until they bleed to death as well. And so, yeah, it's just horrific what is happening there. And, yeah, the conditions are awful. No puppy. I mean, yeah, we all know what dogs are like and what they need. It's not suitable for them, and I believe that they're breaking the law.

Um, I've studied animal welfare. I don't think you need a master's in animal welfare to see that this is just not right. Um, and then the fact that they are bleeding

Mariann Sullivan: A master's in I animal welfare can get in the way of people understanding what's right.

It's not an academic

Rose Patterson: true.

Mariann Sullivan: Sorry.

Rose Patterson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, anyone can see that this is just not okay. And then the fact that they're also sending them off to labs around the country where, um... yeah, animal testing in UK, I'm sure it's similar in the US, is protected by certain laws.

They, um, yeah, have like a secrecy act as well. Basically anyone working there, they're not allowed to share what happens to the puppy. So it's actually quite unclear what's happening in these toxicology tests as well.

Jasmin Singer: Hmm. It's just awful. What, but what happened to the dogs who got out? To the extent that you can tell us?

Rose Patterson: Like, I personally haven't got a clue where they actually are, but yeah, through other people we get like an update now and again from them. But yeah, they're all, they all went to Forever Homes, to loving homes where they're able to, I know some of them have like other brothers and sisters, like other dogs, um, to play with as well and yeah.

Um, they're in much, much better places than MBR acres and they're alive as well. I know that all the dogs that I saw there that day, all the ones that we had to leave behind, are now have gone. So, um, yeah, the fact that we managed to get a total of 23 out and all of those lives are saved, it was just, yeah, completely worth it.

We knew that the risk was quite a big risk to take, but yeah, it was completely worth it.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, let's talk about the risks, uh, and what you, what were you charged with and, and how much time were you facing? And were there variations among the, the different defendants or were they all charged with the same things?

Rose Patterson: Everybody was charged with burglary, um, which can carry a sentence of up to 10 years. Although we knew it was unlikely we'd get up to 10 years, we thought there was a very good chance that we get prison sentences. Um, and also the drivers were also charged with carrying stolen goods. In the end, they dropped those charges and just charged everybody with burglary.

So it was all the same. Um, even though they weren't entering the building, there was still like part of the conspiracy to do so. Um, so yeah, there was definitely, we knew going into this that, um, I mean, we believed and I believed that this was legal. That what we did was morally and legally the right thing to do.

Um, but yeah, we knew that it was possible that a jury would find us guilty, and that is actually what happened with some trials. Because there were so many of us on trial, we were split into five different trial groups and we had different results from different trials, which is interesting.

Jasmin Singer: Well, I wanna talk about the trials, but before we do, I just wanna back up for a second. How would you describe your theory of change?

Rose Patterson: With Animal Rising, our aim is to shift culture. So we're trying to reach the hearts and minds of people, um, of the general public. And we know that most of the general public are on side for many of the issues that we're fighting against. So most people want to see the end of animal testing and especially testing on dogs, and same for factory farming, animal farming.

Um, so yeah, most people in the UK, 80% are against factory farming practices, but it's actually, yeah, getting people to, um, align their actions with their values. And so yeah, our goal is to do these actions, um, these transformative actions that reach the public and help them shift even just a little bit towards, um, yeah, maybe supporting us or at least supporting the end of animal testing or factory farming or whatever the campaign is.

Um, so yeah, basically through, through these like bold, inspiring actions and campaigns, it creates like moral shock. And then that leads to people questioning their values and who we are as a nation. We're supposed to be a nation of animal lovers. And then that leads to people shifting their opinion, shifting culture, and then that helps with other people's work when it's like changing policy and, and yeah, legal aspects of things.

Mariann Sullivan: For farmed animal welfare, like was there conflict about whether people would actually transfer their feelings about dogs to other animals as well? I mean, I think this is always a difficult issue when you're planning, um, anything vis-a-vis animals, like, 'cause so many people, I mean, in the u... the UK is totally, uh, known, you know, for, its, for its warm attitudes towards animals and particularly dogs, but I imagine a lot of times it's dogs.

Like, was that, was that a big question of controversy? Should we focus on dogs? Because a lot of energy goes into this.

Rose Patterson: Yeah, good question. And yeah, actually at the time, because at the time we were still called Animal Rebellion and we were still mostly focused on climate and actually some people in the team were against this. Um, I was really pushing it 'cause yeah, this, um, I think it came to the forefront of our minds because Camp Beagle had started camping outside MBR Acres back in 2021.

So even though a lot of us kind of had heard of SHAC and knew about it, it was kind of not really being thought about anymore about getting into MBR and rescuing Beagles or trying to shut this place down. And then, because Camp Beagle started camping outside there, that really drew attention to it. And so yeah, I was really pushing to go and do a rescue because...well, it was partly because people said it was impossible.

So I was like, well, if, if anyone can do it, I think we can. And I think it's important, even if it doesn't align with our messaging fully, um, even if it's not a climate message. So actually at the time when we did the first one, possibly both, but definitely with the first one, we did it under a different name.

We did it as Animal Freedom Movement, um, which called confusion. And I wish we hadn't done that, but it was basically, yeah. Um, you're right, it did cause some like yeah, internally we were like, is this the right thing to do? Does it make sense when, first of all, yeah, we focus on climate and animal agriculture, and this is puppies.

Um, and, but yeah, I do think... I mean, I'm an example of this. Like I, I grew up with cats and I, I loved cats so much. I was absolutely obsessed with cats when I was little. And then, yeah, learned about what was happening to dogs and cats in animal testing labs, and then... and I wasn't vegan at that time. I wasn't even vegetarian.

And then over time, because I cared so much about those animals, I made those links. And of course that's not gonna happen with everyone. But I do think for a lot of people, that is how most of us connect with animals in the first place. And I think it's a low hanging fruit as well. It's like, yeah, I do think it's on its knees.

It's something that the public want to see the end of, but yeah, it is a challenge to bring people from puppies to pigs.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. No, it is. I mean, but you know, it's worth doing in and of itself to save the dog. So it's not like a waste, it's ever a waste of time. But it is, uh, you know, I mean, I, I, I come down the same way you do. That's like how most of us figure out that, uh, we care about animals, but it is true that very few people managed to make that leap, and we have to constantly be thinking about how to, um, help them do that.

All right, let's get back to the, can we get back to the trials because I'm very intrigued as to why there were so many of them when it was all pretty much one thing. Why? Why and in what way were the trials broken up?

Rose Patterson: Because there was a total of 20 of us, so there was 20 people because in the first rescue there were three people doing the rescue, but Ben did both rescues, so he did it twice. Um, so yeah, the second rescue there was 18 people. And then, yeah, so a total of 20 of us, there's just not a court big enough for 20 people to go on trial.

Mariann Sullivan: Simple answer. I though it would be this complex legall decision!

Rose Patterson: I mean, apparently there was one potential court that could potentially take us all, which I think would've been really fun. Um, but yeah, they, I think they just didn't have the space or whatever at the time. So yeah, they decided to split us into five different trial groups.

So there was like three to five people on each trial group. And um, yeah, so we had trial one was in December, and um, they got found guilty and that was, I think, quite a shock because yeah, because it's puppies and because to us, this is just so obvious, um, but obviously to, yeah, to a jury of 12 members of the public, even if morally they agree with us that this is the right thing to do, there is the legal argument.

And yeah, our main argument was, um, dishonesty. So they basically, the prosecution had to prove that we were dishonest in our actions. And because we did everything openly, we filmed everything, we posted it online, we told the press, we even told the police. We went to the police after the rescue to tell them what we had done.

So in our eyes, we were completely honest. But yeah, maybe the jury, who knows who's on the jury. A lot of this is just pure luck as well. It's, the odds are stacked against us from the beginning, honestly. Um, and so you really, I think it is, it was harder than we expected. Um, and so yeah, it was quite disappointing that first verdict, getting guilty verdict.

But yeah, like you said, we, it's a win in and of itself. We saved those puppies and yeah, we knew that no matter what happened during the trials, like we won anyway. Um, of course it's nice to, to get an acquittal.

Jasmin Singer: I'm just a little confused about the, uh, the results of, of the trials. Can you, can you just go into that a little bit more and summarize the outcomes?

Rose Patterson: Yeah. So out of five trials, we had three guilty verdicts and two not guilty verdict. So it literally went guilty, not guilty, guilty, not guilty, guilty. Um, and it's even possible within the trial, different people, individuals could get found guilty and not guilty as well, but that didn't happen, but that's possible.

Um, so yeah, it was, it was basically, it's totally up to the jury. Um, and we had the same judge for the first two trials and the, the last one, and then, yeah, a different judge for the, um, third and fourth trial as well. And that can also make a difference as well. But yeah, both judges had both guilty and not guilty verdicts.

So yeah, it's like, it's, yeah. A lot of people ask this question. It's a good question. And yeah, honestly, without speaking to the jury, it's very hard to know exactly what was going through their minds. What were, yeah, what were the challenges that they faced? And it's really hard if you're on a jury and you could have some people really, really wanting us to win, but maybe they're just yeah overthrown by other people.

Mariann Sullivan: In some ways it's not that surprising. I mean, people's attitudes towards animals can be so different. And really, this, this, I mean, your, your defense. So the defense of honesty, honesty means that you were being completely honest and open. Not that, not that you weren't stealing something or just it had to do with like whether you were openly doing everything.

I wasn't sure of what that, because it's not a word that's really used in criminal defense in the US. So, all right. So, uh, yeah, uh, obviously people have very different attitudes about what moral issues are regarding animals, and it's just kind of bizarre. Is this something that can be the subject of an appeal for the people who did get convicted?

That the exact same people who did the exact same thing got acquitted.

Rose Patterson: There are grounds for appeal for the first trial because they did have really strict restrictions for some of the things that they could say. So they were actually restricted from saying much about what was happening inside MBR and their beliefs and everything. So, um, yeah, they are going to appeal.

Um, I believe the other two don't really have grounds for appeal, unfortunately because they had similar restrictions to the trials that were found not guilty. So Yeah. It's unfortunate that, yeah, that's not gonna happen. But if, yeah, if the, if the appeal goes through for the first one, then it's possible that that can set a precedent for future trials. Otherwise it doesn't set a precedent.

Mariann Sullivan: It really is a crazy legal story that, that people can do the exact same thing and some get acquitted, some get convicted, and it's all fine. That's

Jasmin Singer: No. I was gonna ask you that Mariann. Actually, I don't really know what my question is, but,

Mariann Sullivan: I think we have bigger courtrooms. Like,

Jasmin Singer: as an, that's what I was gonna say, like, as an animal law person, Mariann, like, how, how do you make sense of this?

Mariann Sullivan: Well, I'm, I have trouble making sense of... I mean, just as a legal question, it just 'cause it's just the kind of legal issue that you don't really have to know what the law is. You just have to know that, well, that sounds completely unfair. I mean, anybody would think that sounded unfair.

Rose Patterson: So in the US you never have like multiple trials for like the same thing?

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. I'm sure there are. I'm just, I mean, I don't have the answers as to how that, how that works out.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. I, I wanted to switch gears a little bit, but before we do Mariann, did you have anything else, uh, about the trial specifically before I switch gears to some of the broader strategy questions?

Mariann Sullivan: I mean, I would like to know how you feel these rescues do fit into a broader strategy. I mean, both the, both on the dog question, but we kind of covered that, but also just, just, you know, I guess it's basically your, related to what you were saying about your theory of change.

Like, like how does it fit in? How does it fit into what you wanna be doing for the next 10 years?

Rose Patterson: I think open rescues are so powerful. Obviously I speak to my husband, Wayne, a lot as well, who has been on rescue for decades and I think it's just so powerful and it's something quite unique to our movement, like that we can actually go into these places and show what's happening, show the oppression, the suffering, the cruelty, and actually rescue the animals and take them to safety and create the world that we are trying to create.

And yeah, literally just saving a life. Um, I think the story in that, I mean, obviously, it's just the right thing to do clearly, but also the story and yeah, showing the public that this is, this is like who we want to be. Like, yeah, I think a lot of what we're doing is just like helping the public, like, question who are we?

And um, yeah, what would you do in this situation? That makes people think. That was on our t-shirts actually, when we did the beagle rescue for the second time, we had t-shirts that said, What would you do if this was your dog?, on the back. And yeah. It's to provoke, um, to provoke people. Yeah, think about whether people, um, sorry whether animals, non-human animals should be locked in those cages or not.

I hope that, yeah, through that it shifts culture and yeah, shifts people's opinion.

Jasmin Singer: Here in the US we're in an unusual political situation, to say the least. I don't know if you've heard. Uh, but like with, uh, with RFK, juniors, department of Health and Human Services working, it appears, pretty aggressively. They're working pretty aggressively to phase out at least some animal testing. Uh, but you know, like we're not big fans, anyway.

Um, but what is the political reality in the UK right now? Do you, do you also have movement on the right?

Rose Patterson: The government actually released a manifesto the end of last year committing to phasing out animal testing, as well. And although, yeah, there are some loopholes and no like fixed dates and things, but obviously it's a move in the right direction. But yeah, it's like still way too slow and especially when something like 90% of tests on animals don't work on human. Or like any successful, like 90% of successful tests on animals don't work on humans. Um, and so yeah, it's just like bad science as well. Um, but yeah.

So yeah, the current, um, government are trying to phase out animal testing or say that they are, um, but then they're also protecting those facilities as well by claiming now a new law has been passed, saying that those, um, facilities like animal breeding facilities and animal testing facilities are key national infrastructure. And so that gives the police extra powers to be able to arrest people like literally just standing outside with a placard.

So a couple of weeks ago, two people, these, these are the first two people to be arrested under this new bill, um, literally for standing outside MBR Acres with placards. So it's like, it's pretty scary. It's not gonna stop us. But yeah, it's, it's insane. It's like one hand, they're saying this has gotta end.

On the other hand, they're like, we need to protect this.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. That's very troubling. All. All right. Let's talk a little bit about Wayne. You mentioned that you're married to Wayne Hsiung and who I'm sure everyone has heard of, and he's one of the pioneers of open rescue here in the US. I assume that, that there's a connection here and that you talk about these issues, but, but is there, are there differences in the, in the goals and strategies between the UK and the US and how it's done and, and maybe different cultural and political situations?

Or is it basically, is this basically a global movement that's gonna be pretty similar everywhere?

Rose Patterson: Um, so yeah, me and Wayne, we basically met because of the beagle rescue, so yeah, because of our rescue in 2022. Um, yeah, we started talking after that and, um. Yeah, I think there are some differences, I think because of how, how much repression there has been from the police over the last few years. Both on, like I just said, with the situation with animal testing facilities becoming the national infrastructure, but also the repression that we've had as an organization.

Like literally police breaking down our doors just for planning to disrupt a horse race. Um, like multiple police raids and things. And this is like when we've been open about it. So ideally we like to be open, as open as possible and open, openly organized. And that's actually something Wayne really likes about what we have been doing as Animal Rising and has now obviously been doing that with Ridglan.

And has been super open about that. I just don't think that we could do that right now in the UK. If I started saying openly that we're gonna go to break in MBR Acres, I'm pretty sure the police are gonna come and knock down my door, um, and raid my house and arrest me before it happens. So I'm actually quite shocked how much you've got away with.

Um, he seems to be, yeah. Not had any issues before, before the actual action, which is really, I mean, yeah, it's definitely a good thing. It's also surprising to me. So I think that's something that right now in the UK it's not just because of our actions. It's because of, um, I think partly because of Extinction Rebellion, Just Stop Oil.

There's been a lot of direct action over the last, like six, seven years and the police have, over time, become like more and more heavy handed and just trying to prevent it at all. Um, that seems to be what the, the strategy is at the moment. And so, yeah, I think I prefer to be able to be more open. Um, and we are wherever we can, but yeah, I think that's something where in the US you have that, that's a privilege at the moment that you have where you can be more open.

Yeah, make the most of it while you can.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Do you know of open rescue spreading as a tactic to other countries?

Rose Patterson: I mean that's something I'm thinking about as well 'cause I know I would like to see more open rescues. I know there's a lot of, of course, like covert rescues happening. I do see open rescues happening in other countries in Europe. Um, but not on the scale that we've done or that Wayne, Wayne's done in the US and I would like to see it be more of a global movement.

So I think that is something that if there is anyone out there in yeah, anywhere else in the world, happy to support and make that happen as well. But yeah, I do think over time that is something that, yeah, we'd like to be doing more and um, yeah, having like a network of organizations or individuals around the world doing open rescue.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I, I mean, I love that vision. It, it's so powerful. And I've, you know, I've always thought that, that, uh, no matter where you were dropped down on the, on the face of the earth, there would be somebody there who got it about animals. There's just, we're, we're everywhere. There's just not very many of us anywhere.

But the idea of this going on everywhere, and also it, it's such a powerful message to other people. And I know maybe one of the reasons that, uh, that there hasn't been as much pushback here is because, at least for Ridglan, the press has been really very good. I mean, Ridglan cooperated in that by acting so nefariously.

But I would assume that that same thing happened in the UK. What was your press like? Was it more negative than, than you see here?

Rose Patterson: For the beagle rescue, that was like overwhelmingly positive, in terms, we didn't get as much press at the time as we'd hoped. We actually, it was a big learning. We did it on the 20th of December for the second one, and yeah, not realizing that journalists are actually gonna take a holiday then, but anyway, um, we thought it was like early enough, but anyway. Um, yeah, I wouldn't do it that close to Christmas if we were to do it again.

But yeah, so we didn't get as much press at the time, but for the, the rescue trials, um, we've had so much positive press. Um, I mean, I would say we've, it's been harder to get press, but social media, it's been amazing. Like, yeah, normally through our campaigns and direct action, we get a lot of hate and trolls and you know, just people feeling angry about what we're doing.

But with beagles, honestly, I think it's like 99.9% positive. Yeah, most people wouldn't see this is the right thing to do. And yeah, I hope over time we see a shift for all animal rescues and all actions for animals to be getting as much positive support. But yeah, it's been overwhelmingly positive. And then just things like celebrity support as well. Like, um, yeah, having, I mean, very big names in the UK, I dunno if they're so big in the US, but people like Joanna Lumley and Chris Packham, um, Jonathan Ross, Amanda Holden.

But yeah, basically like, yeah, big household names in the UK, putting their name to the open letters to shut down MBR Acres. So that's like a massive signal that yeah, this is this, yeah, a normal, normal view to have.

Jasmin Singer: Well, yeah, that's always, that's, that's great. I do think, I do think things are shifting just a little bit, and I'm not usually... that's not usually the first thing I say about things relating to animal, uh, abuse and exploitation. You of course have other campaigns, some of which are also quite controversial.

Can you tell us about them?

Rose Patterson: I mean, I think some of the more controversial ones that, or actions that we've done for, that have been actually controversial in the, like the animal rights movement and vegan movement. Um, some, we were doing a dairy campaign and we started, we got viral videos for pouring milk on the floor in supermarkets, and this is where we would just go into, we started off in like high-end supermarkets, take milk off the shelf and just pour it on the floor.

And yeah, this went completely viral 'cause it's a strange thing to do in the first place. And then, yeah, the, the controversy of it, like whether some people saying this is a waste of milk, it's disrespectful and, but also. I dunno, personally, I, I like the milk pours, but I can understand.

Yeah, it's, it is controversial and, but that was part of like, yeah, the bigger campaign around shutting down the dairy industry for two weeks. So for almost two weeks we had around 150 people getting arrested day after day. Basically blockading dairy distribution centers across the south of the UK. Um, we do this by stopping the trucks climbing on top of them.

Um, we're using other tactics to stop the Hmm. milk from getting out. And we caused milk shortages in supermarkets through this. And we did a similar thing with McDonald's as well, causing some restaurants to shut down because they ran out of burgers. And, um, yeah, we've done some kind of wild actions throughout the years.

And then I think one of the other, the really, one of the most effective things, like most successful in terms of press, was the disruption of the Grand National, which is, that was the first action we did as Animal Rising when we changed our name in 2023. And the Grand National is the biggest horse race in the world, like 300 million pounds on bets for this like one specific race that weekend.

And so our aim was to disrupt that race and, um, yeah, just delay it for however long we could. And um, actually two weeks before that, a Daily Mail journalist infiltrated one of my trainings because we were very open about it. Um, and so we had a Daily Mail journalist, uh, who I didn't know at the time, filmed the whole training.

And then next thing we knew, we were on the front page of the Daily Mail. Um, and yeah, basically saying, yeah, everything about the action. This is two weeks beforehand and then so for a split second, we were like, should we cancel? And then we were like, no, of course not. Let's just go ahead anyway. And there were like hundreds of police on quad bikes, helicopters, everything.

And we still went and did it. And people still got on the tracks and disrupted the race. And yeah, I think, I think we got a lot of support because I think horse racing is on its way out in the UK as well, but there was still a lot of controversy around that and um, it got so much media attention because it was just like, this lead up to, to that action.

So I'm sure there's like, yeah, tons I've missed.

Mariann Sullivan: What was the story of the king's sheep?

Rose Patterson: Um, oh yeah, that's another one. So I'm actually going on trial this year again, um, for rescuing three lambs with two other women from King Charles's estate. So King Charles has, he claims to be an environmentalist, but he has a lot of... lots and lots of land, um, that's actually used for farming. Some, there are some factory farms on his land. A lot of it's also used for sheep farming, which is terrible for the environment as well. And, um, we knew that these lambs were destined to slaughter. And so we went and rescued three lambs, took them to safety.

They're now living in a sanctuary. They're all grown up and yeah, we, we actually went to, we tried to hand ourselves in to Windsor Castle to the police there, but they didn't care. Um, and so we went to another police station and, um, told them what we'd done and then they arrested us and now we're charged with theft, which is, yeah, similar to burglary.

And um, yeah, so we're on trial in September for that one as well. And yeah, because it's the royals, it's had a lot of major attention as well. Um, so yeah, facing potential prison sentence for that one as well. But yeah, that was totally worth it. That was, yeah, that was such a... sheep are harder to catch than, than puppies, I would say.

But, um, yeah, they're, they're all living their lives in, in a field somewhere in the UK, so.

Jasmin Singer: I don't wanna psychoanalyze you or anything, but, uh, I am curious. I mean, I, I do keep hearing you say, you know, it was totally worth it. And, and from where I sit it was too, but I'm not the one that's facing these charges. How do you deal with it, just like emotionally to, to know that you maybe will wind up going behind bars for a bit, or, or who, who knows?

I mean, you, this is obviously a risk that you're taking very willingly. What is that like for you?

Rose Patterson: Yeah, I kind of assume that one day that will probably happen and I'm just at peace with it. I'm, yeah, for some reason it doesn't bother me. Um, I'm just like, I just feel so strongly that we are on the right side of history and it, it's just, yeah, it's, I'm sure it's the same for everybody here.

It's just so obviously right. And it's okay if I spend a bit of my life in a prison cell, and I think we've got to try everything we possibly can to get the message out there and to make that change. And I don't think this is the only way to make change. I don't think it would be a good idea for everyone to be doing what I'm doing.

Um, but yeah, we all play our different roles in the movement and that's something that I'm, I'm fine with, I'm willing to do. Also just think it would be quite an interesting experience as well. But yeah, there's, there's pros, pros to like, yeah, going to prison. I think that's, it needs to happen.

It's gotta happen to make change at some point. Like, I mean, lots of people have already gone to prison for animals and yeah, I think every movement has seen that. Every movement that's actually made change has seen that at some point as necessary.

Mariann Sullivan: How do you feel about your relationships with the, the broader movement? And you, you, obviously, you know, you, as you just said, not everybody does, should do be doing the same thing. I know you've actually been in opposition to the RSPCA and, uh, and there's been conflict, but do you see, do you see yourself as in conflict with, with other parts of the movement? Or do you see more of an evolutionary, uh, development that, that the movement is becoming a little bit more, little bit more... well, let's say a little bit more like you?

Rose Patterson: Yeah, I didn't see it as like conflict even with the RSPCA. Like our, our like outlook of, um, and how we... I mean, it might not, I think we made mistakes during the RSPCA campaign, but our view of them was like they're a friend that's lost their way. Like they were set up 200 years ago to care for animals and now they're putting a stamp of approval on animal products, and like something has gone wrong.

Um, and so yeah, we were just trying to shift them and kind of like, yeah, bring them back to, to their roots and to caring about all animals. And so, yeah, it wasn't intended to have like conflict, but I guess there is, there's definitely some like kind of like confrontation or that's part of being nonviolent is having those difficult conversations.

And we do have, we don't agree with everything in the animal movement. And yeah, I think some strategies are more effective than others, of course, but I don't know anything for definite. And I think it's good that even if someone's doing something that I think is probably not a good idea, I'm still glad that people are there fighting for animals and trying their best. And yeah, we'll make, we all make mistakes and we're learning along the way, um, because we haven't won yet.

So if we knew how to do it, then yeah, we be there already. Um, so yeah, I think we're also friends with... um, yeah, the animal movement in the UK, we have a lot of like collaboration and we're trying to coordinate with other organizations as well, even like more conservative organizations behind the scenes that even if it's not completely openly. So we do actually have good relationships with, um, yeah, like leaders of other organizations, which I think is actually a really positive thing in the UK.

I'm not sure what it's like in the US but I think it's happening more now and more people want, um, yeah, more coalitions, more collaboration.

Mariann Sullivan: There used to be a much more dissension within the movement in the US. I think that people were very opposed to each other. I think that's calmed down, but people do take very, very different, um, ways forward and, you know, inevitably that can lead to, I'm not sure there's as much cooperation as, uh, as, as you're recounting in the UK, but I do think that things have changed a lot.

That, that there's not so much... this, we, we may disagree and this is not true of everybody, um, but, but we may disagree about what's the right way forward, but it's not so much that only my way is the right way forward and the other ways are actually heading backwards and are our enemies. I mean there, I think when I was first coming into the movement years and years ago, I think there was more of that.

And I think that's a really good sign. And I just really think that everybody is aware that, that we're living in very odd times and odd times are very painful, but they can also be times of change. And I think they can be times of change for animals as well when people are kind of rethinking a, a lot of things.

But it, the, the US animal movement is just so... all of the, so much of the money, I mean, enormous amounts of money. I'm sure this is true everywhere. I mean, I know it's true in Europe and the UK as well. It's going into um, sort of cage free campaigns and um, effective altruism campaigns, which, you know, it's a very different approach.

Um, and uh, so there's not a lot of room for a lot of people to be working together 'cause they're taking such different tactics.

Rose Patterson: I mean, I do agree with that. We do talk about that, but in the UK as well. 'Cause I do feel that there's quite a small number of groups that are really pushing for transformative change and really progressive. And there is, I do, I agree, there's way too much money going to EA and yeah, cage-free type campaigns.

Um, I think we could get to, um, yeah, personally, I think we'll get to our end goal quicker if more money was given to more transformative groups.

Mariann Sullivan: Unfortunately, it's not my money. It belongs to the rich people and they're so frequently wrong.

Jasmin Singer: I mentioned a, a little, a few minutes ago that I was seeing change. I'm curious about you, Rose, if you're seeing change and specifically do you have a, a sense of differences in the public's reception to the change that maybe you're seeing on factory farming compared to the work vis-a-vis dogs?

Like in what ways are we shifting?

Rose Patterson: I mean, I think we're already winning, so we've got, so yeah, looking at like our two main areas of work, like yeah, beagles and um, and factory farming, like I said, I mean a conservative estimate for the public, the amount of public that's against factory farming is 56%. The other studies say up to 85% of the UK public wanna see the end of factory farming.

And then with dogs, that's, yeah, it's even higher. Yeah, it's like we've got most of the public on our side. It's just how do we activate them and yeah, bring them, um, yeah, more over towards ideally vegan, um, the vegan end of the spectrum. But yeah, so I think for... this is something, um, so like Harley who's um, one of my teammates, he came from Just Stop Oil.

He was an animal rights activist, then went to Just Stop Oil. So focused on climate for a bit and now he is in Animal Rising. And, um, I mean he, when he came into Animal Rising and had seen what's happening in like the animal rights movement, he's like, compared to the climate movement, like we're like so far ahead in like in so many ways and like we've got so much to celebrate, but often really pessimistic.

And I think you've gotta be realistic as well. Um, but we've got so much to celebrate and it's like most people care about animals. Like most people think it's a good thing to say that you care about animals. Even if you're still buying animal products and things. It's like, it's not a good thing to hate animals or to hurt animals.

Like everybody agrees with that. And then it's just that, yeah, our laws are lagging behind. And actually, one of the things, um, during the trial, the jury communicate with the judge by passing notes. And one of the notes said, uh, it was the first note that they sent. And when they sent, sent this note, I was like, Oh my God, there's some hope here, because they said something like, what do we do if, um, society's like moral, moral and ethical values? Um, or like, yeah, what if the law hasn't quite caught up with society's moral and ethical values? Or something like that. And I was like, okay, maybe we're gonna win, but I didn't wanna get my hopes up. But I think that's so true.

It's like society's moral and ethical values are on the right side, like are with the animals, but it's just like the law hasn't caught up yet. So I feel like, yeah, so... I feel like really hopeful and I think so many things are moving really quickly in the right direction. And just seeing, I mean, I went vegan not that long ago, was that like 14, 15 years ago?

And just so much has changed in that amount of time. So yeah, personally I feel positive and I think maybe I just like, I need to feel positive to carry on with this work. But I think I am also, like, I do think I'm quite realistic as well, and pragmatic. And of course it's not gonna be easy. Just believing that we're gonna win doesn't mean we're gonna win.

I've gotta put the work in as well, but I think like everything is pointing in the right direction.

Mariann Sullivan: Well, that was that was very hopeful. I certainly hope you're right.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I do too. So what's, what's next that you can talk about anyway?

Rose Patterson: Yeah, so, um, like I said, we've got this massive investigation. So for the last year we've basically been mobilizing and training volunteer investigators to go and investigate factory farms all over the UK. So, for about six to nine months, there was an investigation happening every single night somewhere in the UK because we had over a hundred investigators that came to our trainings.

And so this is just like another way that we're trying to... those are the people that obviously very, very much on the, the animal rights side of end of the spectrum and very, very committed people. And they've, yeah, been putting in so much work doing this huge investigation basically to completely undermine factory farming in the UK.

And yeah, we'll be finally releasing that this summer along with a load of actions. And it's gonna be a sustained campaign over many years. And the aim is to get the government to commit to phasing out factory farming. And the first step being, um, stopping new farms from being built, which is one of our other campaigns, Communities Against Factory Farming.

They're already doing that. They're already on a local level stopping new farms from being built through planning law basically. Um, so yeah, we're, we're, yeah, aiming big. So we went from the RSPCA campaign, realizing that all of their farms are factory farms. And we were like, okay, let's just tackle the whole factory farming industry and try and just end it.

Someone's gotta do it. And yeah, actually a few groups in the UK are actually trying to end factory farming here. And I think that's something that's replicable in other places too.

Mariann Sullivan: I, I just think that, uh, particularly in the UK where I, I, I mean I think this has changed of course, but the US... people in the US have always been aware that, you know, we have factory farming and that's, and they just put it outta their minds. But people in the UK I think for a long time really have thought that was something that happened in other places.

And, and that's not what we do. And, so, just the information that you will be able to convey in that campaign, I think will be so. Because I, I think people in the UK, I mean, my impression is, is that because being an animal lover is really something to be proud of and considered something to be proud of, that people just don't realize how bad it is.

Is that your impression?

Rose Patterson: Yeah, I think pretty much. I do think, yeah, most people... it's, it's hard to know whether people like really believe it or if they're just telling themselves that factory farming's not, not happening here, or it's not so prevalent, but yeah. So, but people, that is what people say. They do say, yes, I only buy high welfare or whatever.

And yeah, then there's all this misleading marketing, making them believe that it's not all that bad and yeah, the animals have had high, high welfare lives and things. So, um, yeah, I do think most people, I mean, that is the first step is raising awareness, letting people know that, yeah, 90% of farms in the UK are factory farms, and yeah, this has got to stop and we can stop it and it doesn't need to be this way.

And it's just like, yeah, showing the public another way. So, yeah, see how it go. We'll keep you updated.

Jasmin Singer: Well, on that note, how can people stay on top of your work and support your efforts?

Rose Patterson: Yeah, so you can follow us on social media. So, um, yeah, if you just search Animal Rising on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, um, yeah, all social media platforms or, um, best thing to do is probably sign up to our mailing list if you wanna get constant updates. Um, I think the, um, comms team is amazing. I think we have really great email.

So yeah, if you wanna sign up for our mailing list, um, yeah, go to animalrising.org and then you can sign up there and then you'll get constant updates on how to get involved in campaigns as well once we launch that factory farming campaign. And you can also donate on the website as well, um, because of course, it costs money to run these campaigns.

Jasmin Singer: For sure. Absolutely. Well, Rose, I know you're sticking around for a q and a with our flock, and I just wanna thank you so much for all that you're doing. It's just, uh, it, it's really incredible work and it's been an honor to get to pick your brain a little bit and I'm looking forward to picking it a little bit more.

That sounds so weird and gross, but like in an un-gross way, in a fully consensual, hopefully w,ay. I'm looking forward to learning a little more about you. And, uh, for those of you listening and watching, thank you so much for tuning in. Hit subscribe and like, and comment wherever you are watching or listening to this, on your favorite pod catcher on YouTube.

If you are so inclined and you'd like to join us here at the flock, go to ourhenhouse.org/support. And for those of you who are already in the flock, thank you so much for being here. Make sure you catch our next episode of Rising Anxieties on Tuesday, and follow us on all the socials. We will talk to you next time.

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