Buddhism, Animals & Advocacy: How Dharma Voices for Animals Is Transforming the Way Buddhists Think About What They Eat

So I'm so pleased to welcome Andrea Diaz, and she has a passion for justice and equality, or so I've been told, and always has, and that led her from the criminal justice system, um, to working as an investigator at factory farms and slaughterhouses, and finally to learning about the teachings of the Buddha, developing a meditation practice, and becoming the Executive Director for Dharma Voices for Animals.

So we're gonna be talking about Buddhism and animals and religion and all my favorite things to talk about. Welcome, Andrea.

Andrea Diaz: Hi. Thank you, Mariann, for having me today. It really is an honor to be here with you. Uh, I'm thrilled to share more about the work we do at DVA, the Dāna Circle, which is our new monthly giving program, and hopefully teach your listeners some ways that they can advocate, uh, for animals in Buddhist spaces.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I, I am, I am really looking forward to it, and I assume we have people, you know, all over the spectrum, people who, who are Buddhists and, um, are interested in finding out how to meet some of the challenges of, of caring deeply about animals in a Buddhist space, which, uh, from what I know, there can be some challenges, and people who know nothing about Buddhism and then some people in between, of course, who know a little but maybe, maybe would like to find out some ways to find a little bit more peace in their own lives and are thinking along these lines. So we're gonna cover the whole spectrum.

Before we get to that, just a quick reminder to everybody about The Our Hen House podcasts. Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays, and the long-form interview on Fridays. Bonus for Our Hen House Flock members comes out on Monday. Our Hen House is a podcast and is on YouTube, so please subscribe and hit like wherever it is that you listen, and let's start.

Just give us a quick overview of what the mission of Dharma Voices for Animals is, and then, then we can get into some of, some of the really fascinating questions of the role of animals in Buddhism, which lacks clarity, I think, so, uh as, as role of animals in any situation always does. But it's really interesting.

Can you just give us an overview of the kind of work you do in the world?

Andrea Diaz: Sure, sure. So DVA's mission as the only international Buddhist animal advocacy organization is to essentially align the Buddhist teachings of compassion and non-harming, which are very strong, with the diet habits of the nearly 360 million Buddhists in the world Uh, we primarily work in Asia where most of the Buddhists are, so Sri Lanka, Thailand, Vietnam, and we have a project here in the US as well.

Mariann Sullivan: So, uh, as you mentioned, you have several centers in, in these different countries. I'm interested to know, uh, what they do and how the work is both the same no matter where you are, and how it differs from country to country. Can you just kind of lay out, lay out those different programs?

Andrea Diaz: Absolutely. So each project was specifically designed to take into account the country's history, their culture, and overall stance on veganism, uh, when it was developed. And so our strategies and tactics, of course, vary to fit each country. Uh, our largest project is in Sri Lanka, where up to 70% of the population are actually Buddhist, and we have 18 regional coordinators who partner with Buddhist institutions, so temples, Sunday schools.

But we're also going beyond. We're going into women's groups, medical centers, army and, uh, police posts, anywhere people will listen to us to talk about plant-based eating through the teachings of the Buddha. Last year alone, we did over 1600 presentations to just under 150,000 Buddhists, uh, all over the island nation.

We've also created the very first vegan cookbook in Sri Lanka, which we distributed to the temple and temple attendees for free. Um, and the temples actually, the... So there's this issue in Sri Lanka where folks are bringing stray animals to the temples for them to take care of, and the temples don't have the resources to take care of them.

We're talking, You know, cats and dogs. So we work with local volunteer vets who treat the animals, which is a really great way to directly care for those animals. But it also opens the door for us to pitch our diet change presentations. Um, in the past in Sri Lanka, we've worked with local organizations to try to pass the Animal Welfare Bill, which has not been updated since 1907.

Uh, we were not able to get it to a vote, which is largely in part due to the Minister of Agriculture, but we had half of Parliament record a video saying that they would vote yes, and unfortunately, there's a whole new round of, uh, Parliament members today. So that's our work in Sri Lanka.

Mariann Sullivan: There's a lot of things there that I really love. The whole cat and dog thing is so interesting, that people obviously assume that a Buddhist temple is a place you can come to if, if you're worried about an animal. And of course they don't ha- I mean, they're not shelters. They wouldn't have the re- But, but the fact that that connection exists, and that you're trying to not disappoint those people and say, "No, this isn't where you come to if you have a problem with an animal, actually. But we can, you know... It is, and we can give you re-"

Uh, that seems hugely important. And the political thing too, I actually think I've heard about that campaign in Sri Lanka to update the Animal Welfare Act, and, and I, I, I didn't have this update, which is I guess unfortunate, but it sounds like the campaign is continuing.

So what about Vietnam? Is it different or basically the same?

Andrea Diaz: Yeah. So Vietnam is drastically different. Uh, the lineage of, uh, the Buddhist monks in Sri Lanka, they do consume animals, but in Vietnam, they take a vow to not consume animal flesh. They, they still eat eggs and dairy. Um, but we focus primarily on the lay community since the monks are already not consuming animal flesh.

So there we host youth Dharma retreats with an emphasis on compassion to all beings, and attendees are encouraged to invite all beings into their circle of compassion while they're meditating and enjoying vegan food that we co-sponsor with local organizations. The project is led by the student of the famous monk Thich Nhat Hanh, which if you're Buddhist or not Buddhist, just about every vegan has, uh, shared a quote from Thich Nhat Hanh because he's very pro veganism, very pro animal.

And, uh, we have his student, which is incredible. He's actually the head monk of an ancient pagoda in Hanoi. So we conducted a study at the beginning of the launch of this project, and we learned that most people were afraid of eating vegan full-time since they eat vegan already in the temples because they think it'll make them weak, it'll make them sick, which we know is not true.

So we combated this by collaborating with a local plant-based nutrition science foundation that actually work with vegan doctors to conduct health seminars to the public. They do some small cooking instruction, and I've been to these events a few times, and people are really eager to learn this information. It's not as mainstream as it is here in the US. It's very rare for there to be a vegan doctor, especially in Vietnam, so we're really fortunate to have found this, uh, other organization to work with.

We've also worked with a couple dog meat restaurants. Dog meat eating is very prevalent in the north of Vietnam, and we were able to transition three into fully plant-based restaurants, which

Mariann Sullivan: Wow.

Andrea Diaz: amazing.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I mean, it's one thing to go from dog meat to going to pigs, like, you know, th- there's a lot of campaigns for that and I understand it, but doesn't really get you that far. But to go from dog meat restaurants to plant-based restaurants, that is very powerful.

Andrea Diaz: Absolutely.

Mariann Sullivan: So it sounds like in, i- no matter where you are, you're kind of working with the institutions that already exist and trying to, uh...

I was gonna use the word infiltrate, but that sounds a little a little nefarious or something. But, but you're not, you're not creating this big thing yourself, you're working with all the institutions that already exist and finding the people who agree with you and the people who wanna help and, and working with them.

That's really, that's great. All right, Thailand, same thing or whole d- whole new story?

Andrea Diaz: Yeah. Yeah, Thailand is similar to Sri Lanka, wherein the monks consume animals. So- Thailand has had a really big issue with obesity amongst the monks, and the issue is so bad that the government has been involved. Uh, monks are dying at a really young age. They're passing from non-communicable diseases, which we all know is diet-related.

And so in Thailand, the monks can only consume what they are given as dāna or donation. And we decided to give health seminars. Our director is a YouTube sensation with millions and millions of viewers on his channel, but he's also has a PhD in public health, and he goes with our team of doctors to talk directly to the monks about the food that they're consuming and how they have a choice to consume plant-based foods which will prolong their lives, thus prolonging the teachings of the Buddha.

And, uh, it, it's an amazing program. We really love it. But we wanted to do more than just speak to them directly because we didn't know how to really measure that impact. So last year, we launched the Mindful Meals program, where we secure formal agreements, and currently we have five Buddhist temples, and we're just asking them to serve fully plant-based meals one day a week for an entire year.

So each day they're serving about 80 meals, and if we do the math, we're looking at, with the five temples we have, we've replaced 20,800 animal-based meals within the next month since the program has been going on for a year. And this program is so significant because it really challenges, you know, thousands of years of traditions where monks could only eat what was given to them by the community.

But now we're able to advertise at the donation site where the food is being dropped off with massive billboards, which foods are beneficial for the health of the monks and which are going to cause, uh, health issues amongst them. And, you know, the community has a deep commitment to keeping the monks alive and obviously continuing the teaching.

So we've been received really well here, and we've act-actually been asked personally by at least 10 monks in surrounding temples to come and give these presentations and to enact the, uh, Mindful Meals program at their temple. And obviously, funding is really the only thing that's preventing us from adding more temples on.

But we hope to increase this one day because the, the impact is there.

Mariann Sullivan: Everything you're telling me is so interesting, because I really wanted to talk about, but in a different context, the whole the monks only eat what is given to them. Um, and it, it also becomes an excuse. Well, if it's given to me, I can eat it. Um, it's not just... so, but I had never thought of this side of It that they actually have to eat what is given to them.

And the way you're... I mean, that just seems like such powerful messaging. You're not telling people, "This is what you should eat." You're telling people, "This is what will keep the monks healthy, so please give them this." And that's a, that's a really powerful way to hear the message. It's not so challenging, I think.

All right, we're gonna get to the tough, the tough one. I think the tough, probably the tough one. What's going on, what's going on in the US among American Buddhists?

Andrea Diaz: Yeah. So the US, like you said, it's, it's been the most challenging project to launch, and that's because here we have such a strong attachment to the standard American diet. We've had to go back to the drawing board more times than I'd like to admit to perfect our strategy, as Buddhist centers, uh, here in the US, they fear alienating their sangha, which is their community members, by transitioning their menus to plant-based.

And we learned that promoting veganism is-- it's really taboo in US centers, and we've been shut down so many times. A previous employee was screamed at by a decision-maker at a temple that she frequented, and yeah, not,

Mariann Sullivan: Buddhists are not supposed to do that! Even I know that!

Andrea Diaz: But, you know, this, this really, um, allowed us to get creative and, and I think we have a, a winning recipe at this point. So this birthed what we call the Sustainable Sangha Collective, where we're inviting centers who are already serving meaningful vegan or vegetarian options to be listed on our website.

That's all we're asking, step one. And they're joining other centers who are committed to combating climate change and animal use through menu changes. And so we are hoping that this is going to destigmatize veganism amongst Buddhist communities. We need to make it mainstream. Right now it seems like it's very niche, but if they can see that they're amongst some really popular centers who are already doing the work, then our next stage is going to be approaching centers who are not serving meaningful vegan options and asking them to make more compassionate menu changes with the knowledge that there are so many centers already doing it, and they didn't lose donors, which obviously a, a major concern for them.

Mariann Sullivan: But like what you do isn't only providing food and encouraging food changes. Do you also provide speakers and explain to people more on a, um, actually about the animals themselves, not just about food, but about the reason for, for why, uh, why Buddhists should pay attention to this. Do you provide speakers to any, any, um, temple that, that is interested and, and are any temples actually interested?

Andrea Diaz: There have been. We have had, had some really good success in the last two years, and wh- what we've learned is that they're not really open to talking about the compassionate side fully, so we have to... and I don't know if this is horrible, but we have to sneak it in with the eco dharma side, the, the protection for, uh, for the environment side.

So we've had environmentalists work with us and do presentations at temples. Our board, uh, treasurer, Dr. Alan Kornberg, is, uh, a long time pediatrician, and he goes and does, you know, nutrition presentations. So we have to, you know, basically get a foot in the door any way that we can. But we are hoping that with the normalization of this conversation, it won't be so taboo, and we can start talking about compassion to all beings because the Buddha, the entire tenets of Buddhism is non-harming and compassion.

It's, it's ve- very clear i- in the text.

Mariann Sullivan: I-- now I want to get into that because it is unbelievable. I mean, of all of the religions, I mean, some people call Buddhism a religion, some people call... But let's assume, like, of all the religions, Buddhism is, is the one that actually does deal with animals, like very explicitly. So it's pretty unbelievable that in practice it turns out pretty similar to the way other religions do of not being that supportive.

All right, so let's just talk-- I mean, I know Buddhism has a lot of texts and that, that are relied on. Can you just talk a little bit about where in the canon, uh, of Buddhism we find-- I mean, I think it's probably not just one place, and I don't know much about this, as you can probably tell by the way I'm asking the question.

But so where is it written of how we should deal with animals?

Andrea Diaz: Sure. So the Pali Canon, it's the earliest recordings, uh, of the teachings of the Buddha that were compiled shortly after he passed. It's in Theravada, which is the oldest Buddhist lineage. And so in the first precept, which is not just for Theravadan Buddhism, it's for all lineages, it's a guiding principle which is foundational, like I said, in all Buddhist lineages, and it's to abstain from taking life.

And the Pali Canon literally translates, uh, to, "I undertake the training rule to abstain from destroying..." And this is key, "living creatures." It does not say humans. It does not say man. It does not say people. Living creatures is widely understood to mean all sentient beings. Also, in the Pali Canon, it lays out five specific trades that are deemed completely unethical, and the Buddha does not approve that people engage in.

That's trading in humans, trading in weapons, intoxicants, poisons, and meats. It specifically

Mariann Sullivan: God, I didn't know that!

Andrea Diaz: Yes. Yeah, so this includes being a butcher, a slaughterhouse worker, or even breeding animals for consumption. It's clearly laid out. And, you know, Buddhists, we believe in karma, meaning when Buddhists are buying meat, they're not only going against the Buddha's direct wishes, but we're also complicit in influencing someone else's bad karma because someone has to do those, those jobs to get that product to your table

Mariann Sullivan: Can you talk a little bit about this, this disconnect? Like, when this is obviously such... I mean, it's in writing. It's not like somebody's just made it up. It's in writing. How, uh, how do people, or do they, justify not really being interested in this part?

Andrea Diaz: Yeah. So it, it's something we see in all religions. It's, it's very common where people maybe pick and choose things that, they, they just align with more. But, but also in the Pali Canon, this is what we hear the most. This is the biggest rebuttal to why someone, uh, cannot be

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, that's what I wanna hear.

Andrea Diaz: Yes, it's, it's the Jivaka Sutta.

So it says that, uh, you cannot consume an animal if you've seen, heard, or suspected an animal was killed for you. And so that leaves so much room for interpretation. And, and many non-Buddhists try to justify their animal consumption, but they neglect to understand that supply and demand is a major key here.

So if I go to a store and buy an animal product, which I never would, uh, another animal would have to be killed to, to replace that one. Therefore, we can always suspect that an animal was killed for us.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. No, I have heard that before, and I've heard that that has a lot to do with the whole monk practice, uh, the traditional practice of you, you take what it was ever given for you, but not if the anim- not if they kill the animal for you, but if that's their leftovers or it happens to be there, then you take it.

And of course, this was probably at a point where food was not easy to come by and, um, so there was this idea that it shouldn't go to waste.

Andrea Diaz: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: But if you had seen, heard, or s- or thought it was killed for you, you, you couldn't do it. I mean, it's really hard to interpret that as, as making it okay to go to the supermarket and buy factory-farmed animals. I mean, you have to do some twisted reasoning. I'm sorry.

it's very disappointing, um, to have this religion that has a precept like that and, and have people ignore it. You mentioned Theravada. And I don't really understand the different schools of Buddhism.

Can you just go over that and talk about whether that affects, uh, the treatment of this issue? 'Cause it sounded like even between Sri Lanka and, um, and Vietnam, there were, like, pretty different attitudes.

Andrea Diaz: Absolutely, yeah. So Theravada is the oldest, uh, Buddhist lineages. It's, it's, it's said to be the original Buddhist lineage. And so with what I said above with the Pali Canon, there's still no specific rule that monks cannot consume animals. But in Mahayana tradition, which came later, it's, it's just was, you know, later developed.

It's found in Vietnam, China, Korea, Japan, amongst other places. in that tradition, it's very clear that monks take a vow to not consume animals. So, places that we operate in, like Vietnam, where we have Mahayana monks, they're not consuming animal, they're not consuming animal flesh. They're consuming eggs and dairy.

But w- with the Mahayana tradition, uh, there's still pretty clear text about not consuming animals. And so we have the, uh, Lankavatara Sutra. And, and I, I do wanna preface this by saying I'm, I'm not an expert in Buddhism. I'm still newer to Buddhism. But,

Mariann Sullivan: Well, if there's anybody listening who knows a million times more than I do, and you,

Andrea Diaz: Let us know.

Mariann Sullivan: uh, they, they, they can take that into account, and I'm sure they will be generous about it.

Andrea Diaz: Thank you. So we do know that the, uh, Lankavatara Sutra, that it clearly says, "Let the bodhisattva who is disciplining himself to attain compassion refrain from eating flesh." And this is why monks in the Mahayana tradition are not consuming animals.

Mariann Sullivan: Is that true even even in this, Um, situation where they're given, you know, they're supposed to beg for their food basically, and if they're given flesh, even then they won't consume it?

Andrea Diaz: They will not consume flesh. No,

It's not allowed.

Mariann Sullivan: Absolutely verboten. Okay.

Andrea Diaz: Yes, absolutely. Yes, yes. But they, they are given eggs and dairy, which obviously is something that we're working on as well. But, um, it's, it's important to remember that when these teaching, when these teachings were written, uh, factory farming didn't exist.

Like you said, the, the Buddha didn't know about factory farming, which is probably why it specifically said eating flesh and not, you know, animal products. So,

Mariann Sullivan: as

Andrea Diaz: someone who has investigated many egg and dairy farms myself, I wholeheartedly believe that the Buddha would have opposed,

Mariann Sullivan: Of course.

Andrea Diaz: them because, you know, the standard practices on these farms, they're, they're not in alignment with the teachings of compassion and non-harming.

Mariann Sullivan: Oh, it is extraordinary how people can, um, interpret religion. It

Andrea Diaz: Absolutely.

Mariann Sullivan: really is. What is the goal of a practicing Buddhist? Like, why are people Buddhist? Is it, does it, like, explain the mystery of the world? That's one of the reasons for religion about... Is there an, a belief in an afterlife? I-ih- is it just how to live a better life?

And I guess for different people it's different things, but,

Andrea Diaz: Absolutely.

Mariann Sullivan: You know, in, in Christianity, which I grew up in, there's this concept of sin, there's a concept of an afterlife. It's like, I feel like it's very different, but I don't really understand this basic thing of, like... 'Cause I always think with Christians, well- What I would like to tell them is that, is that, um, clearly God created these animals and they're sentient, and he meant you to figure this out that you're not supposed to eat them, so you're going to hell.

Um, that's how I put, like to put it. You're just going to hell, so, you know, straighten up. But I don't feel like in Buddhism you can do that.

Andrea Diaz: Everything you said is true. Uh, it- it's different for different people. It's different for different countries, different cultures. There are some people who do believe in different realms, that we're-- we go to a different realm after this, and that's why you have to have good karma. Obviously, reincarnation is believed by a lot of Buddhists around the world.

You know, here in the Western world and, and the lineage that I follow, it's more about, one, uh, becoming a better person, but also helping everyone around you attain nirvana, which is ultimate enlightenment. And so it, it really does vary from person to person. But instead of s- i-in Christianity, as you mentioned, we can tell people if, if you cause harm, you have hell.

That's, that's a possibility for you. But even here in the West, people believe in karma, and if you're causing harm, intentional or not intentional, which I think at this day and age, most people know what happens to animals in farms and slaughterhouses. You know, we're risking that karma, which is not a reason to do something just because there's a threat of something

Mariann Sullivan: It does seem to be a reason for a lot of people, though. I think it helps in the argument.

Andrea Diaz: Yeah, definitely. But I do think it's, it's just about following the, the real teachings of the Buddha. I mean, the Buddha himself, he grew up in a very privileged family. He was very rich. He was very sheltered, and he wanted to go and see what was out there. He wanted to open himself up to suffering, um, and that included seeing death, sickness.

He had never seen these things. And so as an organization, we're also asking Buddhists to open themselves up to the suffering, which is the reality animals endure in our food systems. We're simply asking them to, you know, take a look into these farms and, and, and learn what's going on and, and ask yourself, "Does that align with these teachings that I hold so dearly?"

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, and clearly this, this, this standard excuse that, well, it wasn't done for me, that's just a very weak argument. I mean, almost anybody could see that. You know, obviously you have a role.

Andrea Diaz: Absolutely.

Mariann Sullivan: Are there any Buddhists who, who just don't, aren't interested in animals at all? Like, like don't take the position that animals are, are among the beings who matter?

Uh, or is that a standard across the entire practice?

Andrea Diaz: It, it's a standard across the entire practice. It, it's very clear. There's so many other, uh, scriptures that I could quote, but, you know, specifically they say beings with feathers, beings with scales, um, many.

And actually, we have a resource page. It's the, uh, FAQ. It was, uh, created by a PhD in Buddhist studies, Greg Schmidt. He's a contributor of ours. But on our website, you can actually go through and find the top rebuttals that Buddhists give you. So, you know, should Buddhists be vegan or vegetarian? And we have all of the scriptures that actually support not eating animals there.

But it's a really good resource. I highly recommend everyone go, go look into it or send people who are Buddhists or on a Buddhist path there.

Mariann Sullivan: So, I mean, we kind of touched on this, but I'd just like to revisit it now that we're deeper into this conversation. What is the reception to this message? I mean, how does it vary in different countries? But of course, I'm particularly interested in the US 'cause that's where most of our listeners are.

Like, like, do people hear you? Uh, and do you h- do you often have an opportunity to give this message to people who aren't already on board? 'Cause you mentioned that you kind of have to couch it in an eco, uh, sense, which, which makes me feel like there is resistance to the, well, animals matter uh, argument, even among Buddhists.

Andrea Diaz: Absolutely. We get the most resistance here in the United States. In, in Sri Lanka, I've been to our, our projects three times, and, uh, seeing the presentations, it's very, very common for people to leave the presentations crying because our regional coordinators show videos, uh, not, not intense videos, not things that are filmed in slaughterhouses, but just a mother's love.

Maybe like a baby cow being taken away from her mom and how they stress and cry when that happens. And it really just does just open up their hearts and minds to seeing the connections between what they're putting into their bodies and, and how that goes against the teachings of the Buddha. But, um, you know, in, in Vietnam, there is pushback, but it really is just the health aspects, which is why we're working with the doctors.

In Thailand, people are really receptive because they just, they just don't know. Like, they truly just don't know how bad things are for animals there. They didn't know that this food that they were taught their whole lives is the, you know, diet of the affluent that's going to be, um, the most nutritious for them is actually causing harm.

But yeah, here in the US, um, they... a lot of Buddhists don't wanna talk about it. It's incredibly taboo. They're afraid of bringing it up. They don't wanna ostracize their followers, and we- we're struggling here. Uh, but, but we're doing it. We're making it work. And we actually, uh, we are launching an All Beings Coalition, and it really is poised to become the biggest Buddhist coalition in the world, where we're uniting the most influential and venerated Buddhist voices, so that could be a, a monastic, a scholar, organizations, in the world to take a public stance against factory farming and we're hoping that this is going to inspire countless Buddhists to, to follow their example.

We currently have folks like Tara Brach, she's written Radical Acceptance. I've seen her book everywhere. Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi, who has translated a lot of the text, and it's very commonly used here in the West. David Loy, who quite literally wrote the book about eco-dharma, and others.

And we really just want to get these venerated voices to publicly advocate for compassionate food systems and, and reduce animal suffering.

Mariann Sullivan: That is great. Are a lot of, is a lot of the leadership more on board with the animal message, or is there even resistance among, among the more powerful voices in American Buddhism?

Andrea Diaz: It, it is mixed. I think it, it's the same thing with the US centers, where a lot of the powerful voices are afraid of alienating their, their followers, which is, you know, understandable in a sense, but it's also, we have to understand that we're not living by the teachings of the Buddha when we're not talking about what's happening to the animals, and that's why we're putting this group together to, to make it less taboo, to make it more mainstream and, and hope that that makes some good changes in the near future.

Mariann Sullivan: I just think this is incredibly fertile ground for, for sowing these seeds. Incredibly. Um, all right. I have a few questions for people who are in different positions. Let's start off first with if people are listening who, who are already practicing Buddhists and already part of a community of some sort or the other, uh, but, you know, they haven't found the vegan community 'cause apparently that's pretty damn hard to find.

So what is your advice to people who, who wanna be a little bit more active, who wanna bring this message to a community that's not yet on board? I mean, do you have resources for those people?

Andrea Diaz: Yeah, absolutely. So we have plenty of resources on our website. I mentioned the FAQ page where they can actually go through and find the answers to a lot of questions, uh, that people have. So we also launched the Bodhi Project, where, uh, we ask folks to take a guided journey towards awakening their heart by bearing witness to the profound truth of animal suffering in the 21st century.

And it really is an incredible resource where, uh, like the Buddha, who opened himself up to suffering, we're asking folks to do the same. So we have different industries that we highlight, and there are photos. But the kicker is that the viewer can actually reveal the photo themself. They click on an eye icon, and it un-blurs the photo, and it really, really is in alignment with what the Buddha did.

And although it's very scary and, um- can have, you know, negative impacts on maybe one's mental health. We, we cannot turn away from suffering. It is completely against what the Buddha taught.

Mariann Sullivan: That's very powerful. I mean, I love too, one, the whole idea of opening your, opening yourself to suffering, 'cause that's exactly what the Buddha did, and this idea of being in control of whether you see the image. Because I think a lot of people, when the image is imposed on them, shut down.

Andrea Diaz: Absolutely.

Mariann Sullivan: And just don't wanna think about it and resent it.

But just that aspect of control, that's a really good idea.

All right. I also wanna talk about people who are listening who are not Buddhists, um, and maybe they even have another religious practice or maybe not. Um, do you think Buddhism has something to offer people who, you know, are not on board on... who don't really know anything about it as a religious practice, but who are already vegan, already on the side of the animals, and are struggling with the cruelty of the world?

Is this a, is this a good space to be in that might help people?

Andrea Diaz: Absolutely. Uh, before being, uh, becoming Buddhist, I was atheist, and I still consider myself atheist, which you can be a Buddhist and an atheist.

Mariann Sullivan: That is convenient. Yeah. I might still be Catholic if you were allowed to be an atheist at the same time. There were things I liked about it. I liked the music.

Andrea Diaz: Yeah. And I actually grew up Catholic as well, and so, you know, the Buddha wasn't a god, so you can be both. But, uh, there are so many teachings that I think specifically the grassroots animal advocacy, uh, community could benefit from. And I, I just wanna share a little bit more about how I got to Buddhism, because I think it's important for this topic.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, no, please do. Please do.

Andrea Diaz: So I grew up Catholic. I, I'm a person of Indigenous American descent, and I was raised on a farm just a few miles from where I am currently. Um, and I came to a Buddhist organization because of grassroots activism, actually. I dove headfirst into doing activism, working with Direct Action Everywhere, The Save Movement, uh, here in Phoenix.

And, and shortly after, I realized that I could harness the power of social media to share exactly what is happening to animals. And I found myself at a pawn shop here in Phoenix, buying a $100 Nikon with the intention of documenting farms in my city. And over the next three years, I investigated farms and slaughterhouses in the US, in Spain, and in Mexico, with the footage fortunately amassing many millions of views, and I'm very, very grateful for that.

But bearing witness to their suffering and, and not having healthy coping mechanisms really, uh, actually led me to develop a serious case of panic disorder.

And, uh, it was, it, it was so bad that my husband had to drive me, my now husband had to drive me to the emergency room multiple times a week to sit in the parking lot, because I was convinced I was going to have a heart attack.

Uh, this led me to meditation, which ultimately led me to Buddhism. So I came to DVA not as a Buddhist, but as a seven-year grassroots organizer and volunteer- um, with a year of learning about practices and, you know, visiting Asia myself, but I became Buddhist that way. But had it not been for meditation, I would've still had panic disorder.

It really brought me out of that. And the way that I advocate to folks now is different than how I advocated at the beginning. I mean, at the beginning, like most, most people with, with good reason, are angry. We're learning that not only are we, were we ourselves contributing to immense harm, but other people are doing it, too.

And just when you have that realization of just how bad things are, anger is a natural reaction. And so I was a very angry person. I was not a very nice person, and I don't think that I won a lot of people over to our side advocating like that. And there are a lot of people in the grassroots activism space that suffer from mental health ailments because of what we open our, our hearts to.

And I really think that having a meditation practice, whether you're Buddhist or not, it would be really beneficial. There's also the tenet of right speech, which is, you know, speaking with good intentions, knowing when to speak, how to deliver messages. It's, it's very important and, and very, very good at, you know, changing lives.

And we actually do have a monthly, um, meditation and mindfulness sangha. It's the last Sunday of every month. Everyone is welcome. Um, and I do invite folks to join, even if you've never meditated, whichever level that you're on, please come join us and, and we would love to share some space with you.

Mariann Sullivan: I love that. I love that. Um, remind me of w- what's the website and where can people find that?

Andrea Diaz: Yeah, so you can find it on our website, www.dharmavoicesforanimals.org. You can sign up and get a monthly reminder and again, we'd love to have you.

Mariann Sullivan: You know, I, I have one more question along those lines. I mean, I think that the online, the online option is a really powerful one, and I like it. But I would also imagine that people who are kind of feeling interested and fi- kind of feeling that this might be a helpful path for them are, are not interested in going to one of those temples that if they want personal interaction that you talked about where pe- very peop- you know, one more space where you have to be the, the, um, careful vegan and, and introduce people carefully to why animals don't...

Like, nobody wa- nobody needs that. I mean, maybe that's a good thing to do in life, but if you're looking for your own peace of mind, that's not where you would go. Is there a way to find actual not online, in, in real life vegan Buddhist communities?

Andrea Diaz: You mean just like, like what we do, the online sangha?

Mariann Sullivan: No, I mean, i- in real life, like, like are there actual groups of vegans either, you know, a big temple or just a small group of... who are vegan, who are already on board, who you don't have to worry about and you don't have to like instruct and, and, and be careful with? Do, does that exist or is that something you're working on that you would like to see in the future?

Andrea Diaz: I would love to see that in the future. There are not a lot. There are some sanghas. They are harder to find. We do have, uh, sanghas listed on our website who, like I said,

Mariann Sullivan: Okay.

Andrea Diaz: serving vegan or vegetarian meals, but they're not, not 100% on board.

Uh, we do have some chapters around the country and around the world, one that just opened up in the San Francisco Bay Area and another in Chicago, where they are vegan, uh, animal advocates and Buddhists who come together and do meditation practice.

But we're also always looking for folks to start those chapters and, and start those communities. So if you are interested, please reach out, and we would love to, to help support you get that started.

Mariann Sullivan: All right, cool. And in the meantime, there's the online option, which sounds very powerful. I don't know what we all did before we could find other people. I mean, so many times at Our Hen House, we have heard from people who say, "You're the only vegans I know." It's just,

Andrea Diaz: Wow. Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: It's hard when people don't know anybody, don't have any community, um, and Buddhism should be providing that community, and I think through you that's starting to happen.

This has really been a pl- I could be-- I could talk about this all day. Like this has really been a pleasure. I'm so glad we found you, Andrea, and thanks so much for joining us today.

Andrea Diaz: Thank you.

Mariann Sullivan: And thanks everybody out there for joining us today. Don't forget, you can donate and become a flock member at ourhenhouse.org/support, and catch our next episode. I think it will be Rising Anxieties on next Tuesday. See you next time.