Tim Woodward of Animal Rescue Corps — Large-Scale Animal Rescue, Cruelty Response & the Fight for Animals

They do it by conducting large scale rescues of animals in desperate situations, whether from abusive and neglectful situations or because of natural disasters. Welcome to Our Hen House, Tim.

Tim Woodward: Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here with you.

Jasmin Singer: I'm so happy that you are as well, and, uh, I just wanna say you, you, you.

just told us that Our Hen House and the Animal Rescue Corps were both founded in 2010, so that's... I love that.

Tim Woodward: I love that too. I was, I was-- I knew that I had heard about you guys for many, many years, and a lot of my animal rights and vegan friends are huge fans, so I was curious when you actually started. So I went and took a look, and we were founded in the same year. You guys were founded at the beginning of the year.

We were in November, but 2010.

Jasmin Singer: Okay.

Mariann Sullivan: And we, we've, we've fixed everything!

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, everything's fine now. I

Tim Woodward: We can retire.

Jasmin Singer: What are we gonna talk about? I don't...

Yeah, I was 30. I just, like every now and then for, for shits and giggles, I'll press play on the first episode and I'm like, "Ah! Who who are those people?"

Mariann Sullivan: Think it holds up very nicely!

Jasmin Singer: No, I know, and then a few minutes later I'm like, "Mariann, we, we really have not changed the show very much."

Like, uh... Although, and I'm sorry that I'm going down this tangent rabbit hole here, but, uh, I didn't know anything about podcasting and I had a laptop, and I didn't understand, like, microphones, so I spoke into the m- the computer and handed it back and forth to Mariann. We were in the same location.

Mariann Sullivan: We did that for years.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: To be fair, in 2010 nobody knew anything about podcasting,

Jasmin Singer: True

Mariann Sullivan: uh

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, that's true. That's true.

All right, so we're gonna talk about the Animal Rescue Corps in just a second, but just a quick reminder about the Our Hen House podcast. One thing that has changed is back in the day, we were one extremely long podcast, and now Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays, the long form interview, which is this, on Fridays.

Bonus for Our Hen House Flock members comes out on Mondays. The Animal Law podcast comes out once a month. And Our Hen House is on YouTube and any podcatcher that you like to listen to podcasts on. So hit subscribe, hit like, and leave a comment wherever you can

All right, let's get to Tim. So the Animal Rescue Corps is, as I mentioned, doing such invaluable work and filling such a huge gap in the ability of governments and others to not only respond when animals are at risk, but to actually save them.

So tell us the story of how it came about.

Tim Woodward: So in 2010, I was working with an organization called In Defense of Animals, uh, which was not direct action, but more, uh, uh, legislative advocacy, animal rights oriented. And I met a group of individuals who had already been working in, uh, the rescue field, largely with Humane Society of the United States at that point.

We came together to form what they already knew was a desperate need in the country, which was an organization focused pretty much exclusively on large scale rescue, supporting law enforcement. And that is our primary focus is criminal cases supporting law enforcement, where we conduct the extraction, the evidence collection, compile all of the reports, expert testimony, et cetera, and then shelter the animals for as long as necessary, provide testimony in court cases, and ultimately secure custody of the animals and place them.

Now, in addition to doing those criminal cases, we also do a lot of what I call cooperative surrenders, which is somebody before law enforcement has gotten involved, um, you know, say it's a family member who has gotten sick and there's a lot of dogs involved, or it's a rescue that is failing and they want to end operations and surrender the animals over to another organization.

Things like that where we can reach an agreement and a lasting solution, and law enforcement doesn't necessarily have to be involved because there, there isn't an element of intentional cruelty there, at least not always. And then the third thing that we do is when we, when we can, we also do shelter relief for other overcrowded shelters, largely in rural areas that, you know, just don't have the resources or the contacts to move the animals out as quickly as we can sometimes.

Mariann Sullivan: Just extraordinarily important work. And, you know, when I first got involved in thinking about animals, it was, it was before twen- well before 2010. It was a... I was mostly involved with the New York City Bar Association Committee and mostly involved with the companion animal issues. And these were the huge, huge gaps that like of course law enforcement wasn't gonna do anything about this situation if they were gonna end up with 300...

Like, nobody knew how to handle it. So this is such... I know how important this work is. All right, let's... But before we, before we move into details, ca- I didn't know how to ask this question 'cause there are many stories on, on your website. So can you just tell us a few stories just to give us illustrative cases of the kind of, um, maybe a recent rescue or one that really stuck in your head of the, of, of the on-the-ground reality of what the work is like?

Tim Woodward: I'd be happy to. You'll have to stop me. But, um, a- and there was a time when I could remember each case and the names of each case, um, but that time has long since gone. But there are ones that definitely stand out. Um, our very first operation in March of 2011 was a puppy mill here in Tennessee, and that was a... let's see, I made notes to help myself. That was 126 animals, so a really big rescue right out of the gate. And, um, that was remarkable in several ways. Um, we went into that operation with only about $10,000, so I was a nervous wreck. You know, how were we gonna conduct what was probably a 50 or $60,000 operation at least with $10,000 in the bank?

But between PetSmart Charities at that point, and wonderful donors and amazing volunteers, um, it, it worked, and it was a wonderful first operation to kick off on. Um, it was a puppy mill, um, horrible conditions, living animals with dead dogs. They were in hutches that had literally been sealed up for the winter with plastic around them.

You couldn't really get in or out to do anything with them. So that was our very first case. And then since then we've done over 200 operations. Um, the largest one is right around 600 animals. Um, and the smallest one is, you know, i- as small as, you know, five or six or seven animals. Because sometimes in rural communities, if you have no facility or your facility is overcrowded, five or six animals is overwhelming and, and large to you.

Our, our most recent case, uh, last Thursday, we just rescued 133 Chihuahuas that were living in a single residence. Um, elderly couple facing health challenges. Uh, the kids moved back home to help and discovered that their parents were living in a, essentially a nightmare of a house, you know.

Massive amounts of feces. You, you couldn't even move the furniture because the feces had cemented around everything, and it was, uh, you know, just horrible. High ammonia. Um, so sometimes we're not only helping animals, we're also helping families. Um, and I always like to think that we're also helping communities because anytime you have, uh, suffering in a community, anyone who knows about that or can see it, it, it weighs on them and they, you know.

You know how it is if you see a dog on a chain when you drive to work every day. It eats away at you. So I like to think we're also improving communities with every operation that we do.

Mariann Sullivan: It eats away at you, but for some people it just makes them think that that's how it is. You know, you get used... People, humans have an unbelievable talent for getting used to things, so witnessing that kind of cruelty, people just get used to it, and that's exactly the direction we don't want to go in.

Tim Woodward: That's true, and w- I know we're gonna talk about the South in particular, but I think that's one of the, uh, one of the aspects of the South that, uh, make it more challenging for animals is that there's sort of this, uh, in- ingrained or historical view of animals as less than or, uh, know, they can just be chained to a tree and that's good enough.

And so I think that's one of the problems we deal with down here, is sort of a historical inappropriate conception of animals.

Mariann Sullivan: I, I interrupted you and you were going to, you were going to talk about a third case, I think.

Tim Woodward: I was gonna tell you about a case we did a few years ago. It was called, uh, Operation Caged Hell. That was... And the reason we named it that was, um, law enforcement officers went to the door, uh, because they had had a report of chickens being confined in the front yard in little wire pens.

And so they actually went there as a call about the chickens, and they knocked on the door, and inside they could see a, a very young child, less than, uh, I think he was just about 12 or 14 months old, in a cage inside the house with large snakes all around in big aquariums. And that was enough to, to l- for law enforcement to say, "We've got a problem here."

So they called us, and we didn't know what to expect, but ultimately there were a large number of dogs, a fair number of cats. There were chickens and rabbits and snakes, and then there were, um, close to 600 fancy rats and mice. And the rats and mice were living in the worst conditions of any animals I've ever seen, uh, just in, in aquariums that had filled to the top with feces that they were literally pressed against the, the lid.

Um, it was, it was nightmarish. And of course, you know, it-- we're there working until 2:00 in the morning, and law enforcement is like, "Are you really going to deal with the rats and mice?" And I was like, "Of, of course." Like, "These animals have suffered greater than anyone on this property." And so we were there until the wee hours counting and documenting every and mouse, separating them and, and bringing them back.

And we worked so hard with those rats and mice. They had to be nebulized twice a day for their upper respiratory. But ultimately, we got them all healthy and placed all of them, and I'm really proud of that.

Jasmin Singer: Wow. That's incredible. And, uh, you know, my mind is still on those Chihuahuas as well, I admit I have the Chihuahua disease, where I, I, like, I see one and, like, they need to be in my family.

Mariann Sullivan: I just wanna say that in, in defense of Jasmin's wife, she's not allowed to get any more chihuahuas.

Tim Woodward: Well, I also have the Chihuahua disease, and

Jasmin Singer: Oh good!

Tim Woodward: recently, I, I'd gotten down to one Chihuahua, and she unexpectedly passed away two weeks ago.

Jasmin Singer: I'm so sorry.

Tim Woodward: For the first time in 20 years, I was without a Chihuahua, and that is not a place you want to find yourself. So

Jasmin Singer: No

Tim Woodward: I've now adopted a new little girl named Biscuit, and, um, uh, I, I need to replenish my Chihuahua herd.

Jasmin Singer: Well, yeah, you obviously do. I'm like-- It's like the battery, you know, the battery signal with, with the like red going up, but for you it's chihuahuas. I totally get it. Uh, my one, my old one who's 18, we got him when he was 16, and he was on the street and, uh, someone had dumped him. And, and when they handed him to us, they were like, "He deserves somewhere to be for the remaining weeks or maybe months of his life," and that was over two years ago.

And, um, and he, he has like use of three legs, and he has no teeth, and, uh, he loves my wife to death, but he hates me. Like no one has ever hated me as much as him, and all-- E- every time he wants to kill me, I'm just like, "You are so fucking cute."

Tim Woodward: I know, it's twisted!

Jasmin Singer: It would piss him off so much if he knew how cute he was while he was hating me.

But anyway, I just...

Tim Woodward: it's true.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I, know.

Tim Woodward: I, I had one named Minnie who literally... I mean, I love that dog so much, but until her last day, if I moved wrong or too fast, she would get me.

Jasmin Singer: My-- I, I'll just say one more thing. My wife is having surgery coming up, and Mariann was like, "Well, let me know how I can help." And my wife said, "You-- can you come over and cuddle Pietro once a day?" Because he wouldn't let me, and my wife won't, won't be able to cuddle him for a little while. So that's Mariann.

And then I asked Mariann if she could also cuddle me. Yeah, I,

Tim Woodward: So wait, he likes Mariann but not you?

Jasmin Singer: He li- well, he doesn't really like her, but he doesn't hate her. Like me, I deserve to die a horrible, horrible death as, as far as he's concerned. But anyway, uh, so Mariann will be cuddling him and cu- and cuddling me. Alright.

So Yeah speaking of which, how do you identify and choose what to respond to?

Tim Woodward: So that's a really good question, and it's evolving. Um, in the beginning, we would, uh, get a tip, and we would work the case. So we would try to do an undercover buy. We would legally obtain evidence, whether that was, you know, going onto the neighbor's property and trying to get photographs or, you know, somehow obtain legal evidence, get a state licensed vet evaluate the evidence and write a report, and then we would go to law enforcement and pitch it.

And generally, I'm happy to say, uh, that, you know, that law enforcement, when they are aware of a problem and they know they have a solution, they know they have a resource, they will act more often than not, which is, is wonderful. When, when they don't have a resource, that's when they will just not address it because there, there is no real options for them that anyone's going to accept.

So in the beginning, a lot of times we would research the case, do the undercover work, and, and then go pitch it. And we still do that occasionally, but now more often than not, just because of our reputation and the law enforcement contacts we've worked with repeatedly, now often they just call us and, and ask.

They describe the case and ask, and, and then it's, you know, then it's just us saying, you know, "This is how soon we can get there. Is, is that manageable? Can you work with that?"

Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

Tim Woodward: And then honestly, in the last few years, it's become a little bit of, of, you know, for years we could do almost anything that came our way.

Um, but now, uh, sometimes just simply due to limited resources, we have to turn down cases. And so we kind of, uh, our priority is always for if it's a seizure with law enforcement because we want to be that resource for them. So that takes precedence over a cooperative surrender. And then, and then beyond that, it's, um, how well can we serve the animals?

Are, are these animals that, we are going to have to hold onto for six months and potentially have to turn down other cases because these animals are so challenged that it's going to require extensive rehabilitation when at the same time we have a case where, you know, it's a similar or greater number of animals and we know we can get those animals into homes within two to three weeks with our partner network, um, and then do another case.

So unfortunately, sometimes it comes about, it comes to efficiency and the largest number you can help.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, that must be very painful. Um, tell us, tell us a little bit more about the logistics. Like, all right, you get the animals. What of shape... I mean, you're making some choices about what kind of shape they're in, but I assume there are many surprises. Um, what are your commitments to them, um, uh, of, in regards to keeping them alive and treating them?

Where do they go until they are adoptable? And, and you mentioned that, um, work with other organizations for adoption, so how does that work?

Tim Woodward: Yeah. So, so when we go on scene, we take a highly trained, uh, team of, uh, who we call our handlers, and they're experienced handling animals in, you know, on their worst day, when they're frightened and fractious and, you know, fearful of, for their life. And so the handlers do the actual catching and extracting, and then we have a whole support team of intake people who are documenting both the scene and every animal that comes in.

Um, and then there's, depending on how big the case is, there are state licensed vets there, um, sometimes two, sometimes three, who are doing sort of an instant triage exam. You know, is this animal healthy enough to move back to the rescue center? Um, what are the obvious conditions that we want to note for evidence, like broken limbs or untreated injuries, tumors, things like that, things that are significant of neglect.

So they're getting an initial exam right there, and anybody that is, uh, at, at, at risk gets transported immediately to the nearest emergency vet. Everyone else is, is documented and collected and then transported back to our rescue center. Um, we are... We, in the old days, we used to, uh... It was always an emergency shelter, a, a shelter that we would pop up in a retail store, an empty retail space or a community center.

Um, but now for years we've had a dedicated facility here in middle Tennessee, which is nicely centrally located. So most cases we can bring animals directly back here for their, uh, secondary exams, testing, rehabilitation, socialization, et cetera.

Jasmin Singer: Hmm.

Tim Woodward: We get them back to our rescue center, secondary exams start, all the testing. We start compiling all of that information. We save every mat, we save all the ticks. Any kind of physical evidence that comes off of the animal gets bagged and tagged. Everything starts getting compiled into indexed reports and spreadsheets that, you know, characterize the overall health of the population, what were, what were the major problems, major indications of neglect.

Um, compile all of that for law enforcement and get that to them as quickly as possible so they can move forward with, um, charges and prosecution. And, and then we begin rehabilitation. Um, what we're willing to do for the animals, I'm, I'm really happy to say that even in the early years, I never had to make a decision based on cost.

So we have invested whatever was necessary medically to save every animal who had a good prognosis of a quality of life. So we, we don't do hero stuff because if, if they're that medically compromised, they've already suffered enough, and they're in a position where they don't have the comfort of a, a family and a home, and they're stressed.

And if they don't have a, a prognosis of, of, of a good quality of life, at least for a month or two, then we will humanely euthanize. But cost has never been a factor in us saving anyone who had the, the capability to have health restored. Behavior is something that we work a lot with. Um, you know, uh, dog sel- being dog selective or being, you know, uh, uh, kennel reactive or food aggressive, those things are not end-of-the-line decisions for us.

Those are all behaviors that are modifiable or with time we can find... you know, we're, we love our partners. Our placement partners are incredible, and they support our mission. So in time, we, uh, one of our partners will find the right spot for that dog. The only th- the only behavior that is truly, we have to make a decision here, if it's, if it's unpredictable, aggressive behavior from a dog that can provide serious injuries to you.

So, for example, when we get spicy Chihuahuas who might wanna nip you, that's not a concern to us. But if it's a dog that can cause seriously bodily harm and they're, they don't give you warnings, then that's something we have to take very seriously, and we won't ask our partners to deal with that. But, uh, overall, I think the last time we checked, our euthanasia rate is less than 1%, so that's pretty remarkable.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I mean, especially considering the, the kind of shape the dogs... Is it just dogs? I mean, the, the, the animals are in.

Tim Woodward: Actually, I did a little total for you. So, so we, we like to, and we make the argument that if we go into a property in order to seize animals, 100% of the animals should come off of that property. And, you know, to me, that's just common sense. If you are not taking care of these animals, then are you really taking care of those animals?

And why should you be trusted? And so, um, a lot of times law enforcement will, uh, kind of not be considering farmed animals or, uh... a- and to me, we use what leverage we have to, you know, they need us to help the companion animals, so we use that leverage to say, "We want 100% of the animals brought off the property."

So we have done, and I made a little list, we've done about 10,000 dogs, 1200 cats, 836 other small companion animals, 62 horses, and 461 farmed animals, and eight monkeys. Um, and then for you guys, I wanted to mention, since it's Our Hen House, we've done 461 farmed fowl that we've rescued over the years, and 173 other exotic birds.

Jasmin Singer: Wow.

Tim Woodward: A lot besides dogs and cats.

Jasmin Singer: Wow, that's incredible. And, and tell us about the shelter relief program

Tim Woodward: So it's, um, uh, basically, you know, because, uh, uh, it started with basically we go into a community and we solve their large problem. And we're working with whatever local resources they have, and they start telling us about their local shelter and how overcrowded it is. And then it's like, "Okay, well, we have a little more room. Let's-- let's-- we can do some additional good in this community by taking some of the animals out of the shelter and creating some, you know, space for them to work with."

And then over the years, that became, um, sometimes shelters would reach out to us if they were in a crisis. Um, a lot of times before, uh, natural disasters, we will go into an area and relieve shelters of animals that are already up for adoption.

They, they don't have owners, and they're filling up the shelter in the crisis area. Whereas if we pull out the ones that are ready for adoption, they can then be better ready to respond to any animals displaced in the disaster. Um, so that's one aspect of it. And then, um, just, uh, over the years, partners that we've made in these rural areas, um, when we know that they're struggling or they reach out, if we have the bandwidth, we will go and, and unload those dogs for them and create some breathing room for them.

And, and additionally, um, we're also now partnering, uh, with National Mill Dog Rescue, who I'm a big fan of, and they take surrenders from, uh, USDA licensed puppy mills... or excuse me, USDA licensed breeding operations. And so sometimes they're able to, uh, allow us to place some of those animals. And because those animals are, you know, breeds that are highly desirable, that also helps place a lot of our bigger hoarded dogs that aren't necessarily what somebody goes to a shelter looking for, but will fall in love with when they go to the shelter looking for a Yorkie or a Pomeranian or, you know, that kind of thing.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. L- uh, this brings up a whole lot of questions, and, uh, we talked about this briefly before the interview started, uh, and, and before... earlier on the interview because for as long as I've been involved in animal rights, there... I don't know exactly what geographic area you cover. I know it's not just the South, but it sounds like there's an emphasis there. And there's been this effort to get animals out of the overcrowded shelters in, in the South, um, and it's been a crisis. And we never seem to get a grip on reducing. I mean, back then it was like, "Well, we have to get spay and neuter, or we have to do all these things of, like, a systemic solution." And we seem to be kind of in the same place. And at the same time, and this sounds like it might be related to some of the work you were just talking about, like, here, uh, I was in- living in New York City at the time, and there was this huge controversy about bringing animals up from the South, who were sometimes puppy mill dogs and little Pomeranians, to New York City, which had this huge overpopulation of pit bulls.

I mean, pit bulls have always been the, the most at-risk animals, and we wanted to get to a no-kill city, but there was just no way if we kept getting animals, um, in from, from the South. All right. That was a long question, but you s- it seems like you're pretty familiar with this whole situation. So can you just talk about it a little bit? And... particularly here in Rochester, I know our shelter is never empty. It's not like there's empty shelters all over, um, the Northeast.

Tim Woodward: Right. And, uh, y- you're correct about a lot of it, and it's-- and every one of these issues, um, have sort of complex nuances to them. Um, uh, the partners that we work with, um, are high-volume shelters in, i- in terms of placement partners. Um, they are generally in the Northeast and the Midwest, and these are your larger, more progressive, well-funded shelters that have high adoption rates.

Um, but you're correct, most local shelters, uh, almost anywhere are functioning at or over capacity. Um, fortunately, our, our partner network is, is able to not only serve their local areas, but also pull in dogs from other areas. And, and you mentioned a great point about, you know, uh, people were mad that New York was bringing smaller dogs in when there was this overpopulation of pit bulls.

And, and trust me, I love pit bulls. I've had a-- I've had pit bulls. I, I think they're amazing dogs. But there are some people who are never going to adopt a pit bull, even if they meet one and fall in love with them. It just doesn't fit their lifestyle, particularly in New York. You know, there's gonna be a l- a higher demand for smaller dogs.

Um, so there is a little bit of...

Mariann Sullivan: to be clear, I, don't want... You know, those dogs from down south, they need homes just as much as... I mean, a solution is what's needed, not one region against the other. It's

Tim Woodward: Certainly, or one's, or one species or breed against another. Um, but I mean, it is a f-

Mariann Sullivan: the way, I'll just interrupt and say, I have the pit bull disease, so, so there you are.

Tim Woodward: They're amazing.

Mariann Sullivan: love pit bulls.

Tim Woodward: We've got some beautiful ones in the shelter right now that are just, you know, heartbreakers. Um, it's just that, and I think, I think there are concerns valid if you have animals at need in your community and, um, and your local resources aren't addressing that or attempting to address that.

You know, and then there's the difference between, um, a, a nonprofit's responsibility to operate under the model and the mission and what their donors expect, versus a municipal shelter who is actually assigned the responsibility of keeping the community safe and, and addressing the homeless animal population.

And so I think sometimes nonprofits that don't have the municipal contract sort of get beat up and told what they should be doing when that's, you know, that's sort of their prerogative. And sometimes municipal shelters don't get the credit for what they're tasked with doing and the, and/or understanding for the decisions that they have to make to meet those tasks.

So it, it's all complex. Um, I do know that like with the... I, I like doing a lot of the big dog cases that no one else is going to go and do. You know, I love, I love all dogs, but, you know, there are a lot of big dog cases where, um, they've been hoarded. They have, you know, they don't look so great. Uh, they don't look like a recognizable breed, but they are just as deserving, just as loving as any other animal.

And so I, you know, I, I have a spot for that because I know a lot of organizations are not going to go and rescue those dogs. And so for us, um, we actually try to do a balance because it helps our partners if they get a balance of small dogs and big dogs, that helps them meet what their clientele is, is looking to adopt.

I had one partner at one point, we had, we had brought him a, a lot of small dogs from a case out in Missouri, and he did a study on, uh, in his shelter, this was in North Carolina, about the impact of bringing in those small dogs and, and the excitement and the PR around it brought up the total traffic through the shelter by, like, some significant percentage.

And ultimately, dogs, uh, a larger percentage of dogs that were already there waiting got adopted because somebody came in to look for a Yorkie and found a pit bull. So, uh, there's, there's so many different aspects to it. But you are correct, there's been a movement for a very long time of moving animals from the south to the north.

I've seen it be incredibly successful, and the North has invested in spay and neuter for many, many years versus the South, it still is, you know, sort of this concept that, "Oh, I would do that if I had time or money." Whereas, you know, in the North it's, it's a philosophy, it's a, a belief. So I think that's one reason the North is able to help absorb from the South as much as they are.

Um, I've also seen the downside of that, where dogs are getting trucked out of the South to places that call themselves rescues, where dogs just wind up in a pen with an igloo, you know, potentially warehoused for the rest of their life on some farm somewhere. and, and to me personally, that's, that's not, not rescue. Um, rescue is having a plan to get them into a home and a family.

Jasmin Singer: While I think things have improved, we're still in a situation where governments in most areas do not provide adequate care for and adoption services for homeless animals.

Do you think that will ever become a serious governmental responsibility, or will it always be in the hands of not-for-profits funded by charitable giving?

Tim Woodward: I think that for the foreseeable future, I don't see a way that we will get there without the incredible work that the nonprofits and NGOs are doing. If you had asked me this 15 years ago, I might have had a more optimistic view on governments continuing to improve and step up. Honestly now, I think that, um, budgets are more strapped than ever.

Um, the human safety and social net has been sort of degraded. Um, I think communities are going to be struggling to meet, um, uh, they're already struggling to meet the needs of the humans in their community, and I think that will, uh, probably get worse in the short term. And so animals will continue to be a sort of secondary priority, um, in terms of funding and utilizing resources. I, I think if there's a silver lining in terms of attitudes and, and feelings towards animals, I think we are continually, uh, nationally raising that standard. Um, you know, th- through media, social media, communication, videos, whatever, I think that the standard for how we think about and treat animals does continue to improve at a measured rate, uh, among people in general.

Mariann Sullivan: You know, I, I wanted to talk a little bit about your legal work. And there... I just wanted to make a comment 'cause I didn't make it when you brought this up. But the work that you do when you seize animals who have been treated i- in violation of cruelty laws, uh, the work you do is so important because, I, I mean, I used to teach animal law, and one of the huge problems in prosecuting cruelty, which is always, you know, incredibly underfunded and not prioritized within law enforcement, is preservation of evidence.

It's one thing to stick some cocaine in a, in a, in a basket and it stays there, but you can't leave the animals in the condition that they're in when they're seized. I mean, immediately you wanna get them better. So that the work of d- of, of recording that is absolutely crucial.

Tim Woodward: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: I... In addition to that, I just wanted to emphasize that point 'cause you had mentioned that that's one of the things that you do. But I mean, you also kind of mentioned this, but I'd just like to go back to it. I, I imagine that a lot of rescues, even if they involve legal violations, also involve people who are just in over their head, or mental illness is a huge issue with hoarding. And, um, do you approach those rescues differently?

Do... Is it, does law enforcement bring you in? Uh, do you just leave it up to them whether people are gonna be prosecuted or not? Are there, are there any judgment calls that have to be made about, about responsibility?

Tim Woodward: Specifically to failed rescues?

Mariann Sullivan: To, to, um, when you go into a rescue and you feel that this is not really a law enforcement issue, it's a mental illness issue, do you

Tim Woodward: Gotcha.

Mariann Sullivan: make those decisions or is that just not your job?

Tim Woodward: Yes and no. Um, law enforcement is typically pretty good about if, if someone is asking for help and they are willing to surrender and, uh, surrender all the animals and, and not try to keep this being an ongoing problem, lots of times law enforcement will say, "Look, do we, you know, uh, we don't feel we really need to charge these people."

And then there have been times when we've gone into cases, law enforcement has called us in, and we've looked over the case and we've said, "This isn't ideal, but this, you won't win this case. It's not, it, it's not cruelty to the extent that you are going to get, uh, a, you know, a, a verdict of animal cruelty against these people.

May not be ideal, but it's not illegal." So we get to make recommendations. Um, we have had situations where we start out as a cooperative surrender. The people say they want help, and then they become too difficult to work with, or they back out, or they change their mind. And then we go to law enforcement and say, "Look, we started working with these people. We believe there's significant cruelty. They've stopped working with us. What can we do now?"

So it's, it's a bit of all of the above. Um, I will say, you know, for law enforcement, um, y- you mentioned costs, and there's a cost to everything. So when they do charge somebody, and they begin taking them through the legal process, um, there is a cost for all of that to the community.

I mean, they're tying up, uh, district attorneys and, and assistant district attorneys that are already... you know, have caseloads that fill their day. They are tying up, uh, deputies to come and testify, sometimes repeatedly, uh, animal control officers to come and sit in court and wait to testify for days on end.

Um, so it-- They're often willing, if they believe that there's a lasting solution possible without criminal charges, they're often willing to look at that. If we feel that the cruelty is intentional or, uh, that the behavior is going to be repeated, um, which is, uh, s- uh, almost always in true hoarding cases, and, and there's a difference between true hoarding and things that look like hoarding.

Um, and then, um, so there's just, there's a lot of nuances to it. Um, and generally, I think, the greatest thing that we hope for is that if charges have to be filed, um, and are appropriate, that in that judgment, at some point, like the people rarely are gonna get jail time, rarely are the fines gonna be significant.

What we petition for and push for is a prohibition on owning animals for a period of time, because that's something you can actually follow up on. That's something that you can address again, and if they're breaking that condition of probation, it's very easy to go back and readdress it. So that's what we really try to accomplish in the criminal cases.

In the cooperative surrender cases, sometimes depending on the situation, I mean, sometimes it's a death or an illness that you know it's not going to continue. Other times, we will ask the person, if we have concerns, we'll ask the person to sign a document stating that they have agreed not to breed, collect whatever, animals in the future, or we will come back and sue them for the cost of the rescue.

Now, we've never actually had to do that. Um, would we actually win? I have no idea. But for some people, the threat of, you know, legal action and financial consequences is enough to make them say, "It's not worth my time to do that anymore," or, "I won't pull in strays anymore."

As you mentioned, sometimes it is people who had very good intentions who got helplessly out of control, and that's usually in a community when there's no other resource at all, these are compassionate people, and they see animals suffering, and they bring them in and try to do what they can, but with no resources it gets out of control.

Oh, and I was gonna... Sorry, I was gonna mention, you were talking about the cost. We have an ongoing case right now, um, a number of animals that we rescued last August, and we, um, have just recently gotten custody of these animals through the successful bond and forfeiture process. But it took us from August until April and, uh, this is 17 exotic birds, uh, two dogs, and a couple of, uh, s- couple of chickens, and a mini horse.

And in that time, from August until April, we had spent over $100,000 in the care and wellbeing of those animals. And there's no way that a local community, a local animal control could possibly spend that much money providing the care, and veterinary expertise, and enrichment that we have done for those animals.

Um, so it's, it's... sometimes it's just, I think it's unfair to even expect that animal control could do the things that, you know, they ask of us.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Uh, I, I, can't imagine having the wherewithal to continue to show up in this way, but I also can't imagine not having it. And I, I do wanna understand a little bit more about your mental and emotional process, but, but before we do that, uh, I, I'm curious about the puppy mill situation. I'm-- What, what is it?

What is the puppy mill situation, and how often do you have to respond to, like, backyard breeders? Those are the two things that keep coming into my head.

Tim Woodward: So backyard breeders, we, you know, and to me that's somebody who never really got set up in a sort of mass production way.

Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

Tim Woodward: They might have, you know, 30 or 40 animals, which sounds like a lot. but it's typically, you know, somebody who tried breeding and it didn't go so well, so they wound up with a lot of puppies turning into adults that continued breeding and, you know, it's just kind of a hot mess.

Um, puppy mills I think of being that, but to the next level. So, you know, more animals, um, uh, larger structures that are inadequate, um, you know, just sort of, uh, a backyard breeder to the next level. So backyard breeding we do a couple of times a year. Um, it's somebody who was a breeder and now isn't, or they, they were but mom got sick and now they don't.

Um, puppy mills we do about one to two a year. Um, I'd like to do more, but it just in terms of building the cases and executing it, uh, one to two seems to be about the number we do every year. Um, yeah, so that's what's going on. In terms of the national picture, I, can... I don't have data to back this up, but, um, from things I'm told from, uh, other groups working and what we've seen, um, there seems to be a real trend away from smaller breeders, and the ones who are still making money and, and doing it somewhat successfully are the larger and larger breeders.

Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. That was exactly gonna be my next question, because it just reminds me kind of, of the farmed animal situation, that the cases you see are kind of these, these nickel and dime operators, um, whether it's with the farm animals or the puppies. I mean, though the puppies, that probably is fairly prosperous for some people.

But they have nothing to do with this shift to basically factory farming, whether it's for puppies or for, um, for farmed animals, which remains kind of in a whole other world. It's invisible, and there's no way to see behind those walls, and there's no way to, for you to crack them. I mean, not sure I have a question here.

I just-- think it's just important for us never... Because I don't see how you could, you could manage to get into those facilities or do anything about them, or whether anybody would think they were violating the law, though they are. I just want to say, they

Tim Woodward: are.

Yes. No, 100%.

Mariann Sullivan: Of the law. But, uh, it, it, the industrialization of animal life is, is, is something that probably, you know, how, how poorly the the places you're seeing, the poor care they're giving,

just, just is, is shifting the whole world to this, this behind closed doors...

That was my speech. It wasn't really a question.

Tim Woodward: You made a comparison there that I think of often, and I'm, I'm sure you know, and, and I may not be 100% accurate on this, but my understanding is that many of the worst practices in, um, a large scale, um, uh, commercial farming kind of started with, um, chickens. And, and it was, uh, women who were looking for a way to make a little money and not only have their own eggs, but also be able to contribute to the family s- were raising chickens, and then they realized like you, you know, people started realizing you could raise more and more in confined spaces, and it sort of got really bad from there.

And I see that same sort of trend in backyard breeders and puppy mills. It's, it's often older women who started doing it as a way to contribute money to their family that they could do at home. And then it just... You know, but again, it, it... Anytime animals, in my opinion, anytime animals are about profit, you're-- there's problems.

You know, but again, so a lot of times I think that, uh, what we have found is it's, uh, older women who started doing it, and then as they're aging out or their health is failing, they're kind of giving up on it or letting it go. And, and you're right, what is, uh, sort of increasing are the large scale industry puppy farmers, millers who we can't see into those properties.

Um, we did one several years ago in Iowa with, uh, the ASPCA and, uh, a number of other organizations that, uh, the only way that... You know, there was over 600 animals, and the only way was because the USDA finally turned on this guy, and decided to take his license and shut him down. Um, but, you know, the facilities were huge.

They were well off the road behind, you know, multiple layers of security and, you know, it's, it's almost impossible to penetrate those places.

Jasmin Singer: I wanna move to talking about what I alluded to before, which is how do you and your folks keep your spirits intact in the face case of dealing with such cruelty.

Tim Woodward: So compassion fatigue is real. Um, work-life balance is a thing we should strive for. Um, and I'm probably the worst offender. Uh, you know, I, I'm-- I stay pretty focused on the work. Uh, we took a vacation last year, was the first time in a few years. Um, so I, um... And I don't expect everyone, but I, I feel like I'm in such a unique position with the opportunity to maybe make some Animal Rescue Corps into something that, um, uh, will live for a long time and change many lives.

So this is, this is my focus and goal. Um, but, uh, we do... And I think the other, the other thing that we have is an incredible core team. So we know, can tell when each other are sort of burning out, need some extra bandwidth, need to take family time. Um, we do share resources about compassion fatigue and, sort of counseling that you can get if you feel that you need it.

Um, I have been in the position where I've had to ask, um, you know, volunteers to actually take a break, know, take 30 days from the work because, um, it's, it's, it's obvious that they're no longer finding the joy in it. And at least in the shelter, we should be able to find the joy in the work. Um, so I, I'm, I'm probably not as good at managing, um, for me or the team, the mental and emotional, uh, sort of damage that comes with this.

Um, I do have people tell me all the time that they could not do what we do, and I sort of push back on that because I think that you're put in the position where you have the privilege of law enforcement inviting you to go in and save animals, I mean, almost anyone would figure out a way to walk in there and pull out animals.

Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tim Woodward: When we're on scene, we, we do our tunnel vision. You know, you don't worry about the cockroaches dropping on you. You don't worry about, you know, uh, the, the feces that you're standing in and the destruction that's around you. You focus on one animal at a time and getting that animal to safety.

And, um, and a, a great team, and we're always looking out for each other. So that's my best answer.

Mariann Sullivan: I'm not sure that anyone would respond in that situation, but I'm glad that, that you do. And I, I do see what you're saying, that when somebody calls you up and says, "Well, we have all these animals need saving," that's different than, than waking up in the morning and saying, "Oh, what could I do for animals today?"

Like, they're real animals and they're at the other end of that phone call.

Tim Woodward: Yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: but I'm really glad that it's you that's, uh, at this end of the phone call.

Tim Woodward: You know that, I mean, often these properties, you know that animals have suffered and died on that property for generations, you know? So the ability to go in and pull out the ones that, you know, are living and can have a life and I, I mean, it's an incredible privilege, and it's, you know, it's hard not to do it every opportunity you get.

Mariann Sullivan: Work-life balance can be overrated. You know, one thing I meant to ask you which, uh, we're, we're at the end here and I haven't gotten to yet. I've, I jotted down that you also have education and training programs, I assume to kind of be able to a little bit expand the value of your work. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Tim Woodward: Absolutely. So this is an area we actually are about to start, um, reinvigorating. Um, it's been a number of... We used to do what we called our Basic Animal Rescue Course, BARC one and two, and it was very well-received, and we used to do that publicly, and then we sort of got busy and fell out of the habit.

And that's something I very much want to bring back around, um, and, and offer it to the public, but more importantly, um, also focus on our partners and law enforcement. Um, there's, there's law enforcement departments all over this country that have no one who's ever been shown any proper animal handling techniques or how to document cruelty or what to look for.

Um, so, uh, really when we sort of reinvigorate this process, I want to focus on training with law enforcement and then shelter partners that have some ability to respond. They may not be ready to go out and do a 100-dog hoarding case, but they could respond to law enforcement in their area helping on smaller cases, and so provide them the, the sort of expertise and training that we utilize to utilize in their own communities, and call us if needed.

Mariann Sullivan: really valuable. I mean, because I would assume that your work... I mean, it's gotta be some-- I mean, We talked about the north and the south. We're talking about the east. I mean, you're, you're not covering the whole country, are you?

Tim Woodward: For multiple reasons, we do a lot of our work in the Southeast. Um, Tennessee is centrally located. Um, we're able to move animals easily here from multiple states in the South. And then a lot of times we transport, uh, the final destination is Illinois, Indiana, you know, Virginia, New Jersey. So Tennessee is a great location.

Um, we were never meant to be a local or even regional organization. So we have done, uh, rescue operations all the way from California to northern Ontario. We have, uh, pulled in animals from Mexico and, uh, St. Thomas. Um, but the vast majority of our rescues wind up being in the Southeast.

Jasmin Singer: It's been such an inspiring and thoughtful conversation, and one that, you know, a type of conversation that I don't feel we necessarily have quite enough on Our Hen House, and that's because a huge focus of ours is farmed animals. Uh, so I'm just curious about your personal relationship and stance on farmed animal issues.

For example, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think you, you advocate for a plant-based diet. Is that right?

Tim Woodward: Yes. So I, um, before Animal Rescue Corps, I actually, uh, spent three years working at a organization that was more focused on animal rights, which was a great sort of, um... I, I mean, I'd always been interested in companion animals and had affection for them, but I got to learn an overview of sort of what animals were facing all across the world, you know, from the wild horses to Korean dogs, and just sort of got educated, um, uh, on a basic level.

Um, and then, you know, and felt that with companion animals was where I could make my biggest contribution and, and where I decided to center my work. But, um, I eat a plant-based diet. Um, I-- Animal Rescue Corps sort of espouses a vegan philosophy. Um, we don't think that animals should be harmed or used or for any purpose.

Obviously, we have supporters and volunteers who have all different sorts of dietary lifestyle choices. But here at the shelter, we don't serve, uh, any animals. We serve a vegan lunch to our, uh, volunteers every day. Um, and any Animal Rescue Corps events, we make sure and actually feature, um, amazing vegan food.

And over the years, we've had quite a few converts. Um, yeah.

Mariann Sullivan: That is so great.

Jasmin Singer: Hmm. So as we are wrapping up, I just wanna kind of end where we began, which is we mentioned that we both started in 2010. What, what has changed, either for better or for worse, from where you sit in, in, in a way that has surprised you?

Tim Woodward: For worse, I think that, um, I- a- again, e- everything comes down to resources, and seeing communities, um, you know, sort of become, um, uh, more under-resourced in this time, um, uh, makes me concerned. On the other hand, I see, uh, sort of compassion and generosity and awareness about the issues that animals face growing.

So I think that, um, there are a lot of nonprofits who are stepping up, uh, and doing everything they can. The other thing that gives me hope is seeing greater collaboration between animal protection organizations. Um, you know, there's, uh, a lot of times people who love animals don't necessarily deal well with fellow humans.

But, uh, a lot of really progressive organizations are realizing that together we can accomplish so much more. Um, you know, just like our placement partners. Uh, adoption is a whole specialty and art unto itself, um, and involves, you know, uh being, uh, dedicated and knowing your community. For Animal Rescue Corps, it makes so much more sense to divide and disperse 100, 150 animals because they're gonna get adopted at a much higher rate.

And, uh, and so our placement partners make our mission possible. In return, we try to help them with issues in their community or when they become overwhelmed. So I think that collaboration between organizations gives me a lot of hope. Um, I think there was a lot of division for a number of years around the terminology of kill and no-kill.

Um, I hope that that is somewhat coming to, uh, at, at least, um, a more civil place where we understand, you know, sort of the, the unfortunate responsibilities that are placed on municipal animal organizations. Um, and, I... So I, I-- mixed bag.

Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

Tim Woodward: The other thing I'm hopeful about, which we were gonna talk a lot about shelter, um, and, and the terminology of what is adequate shelter.

I, I went back looking through our cases, and I'm, I'm happy to say that, um, you know, uh, of the instances where law enforcement chose not to act, um, were in the past, in the earlier years. Whereas even in the areas we work in, law enforcement now is, seems much more sensitive and proactive. Um, so there are, there are bright spots.

Jasmin Singer: That's good. I l- I like ending on a, on a bright spot, and I know that you are going to be sticking around for some bonus content for our Flock members. So if you're in the Flock, be sure to check that out on Monday. Tim Woodward, Executive Director of Animal Rescue Corps, thank you so much for all that you've been doing.

It's-- I mean, to say it's life, life-changing is the biggest understatement in, in the world, really. Uh, you are saving lives and, and adding deep meaning to people and, and non-human animals' lives as well. So thank you so much for spending some time with us today on Our Hen House and for sharing your story.

Tim Woodward: Thank you both so much. It was so nice to meet you both, and a real privilege to spend some time with you.

Jasmin Singer: And thank you for, uh, if you're tuning in and if you're listening or if you're watching, thank you. You can support Our Hen House by becoming a flock member at ourhenhouse.org/support. Uh, and make Sure that you catch our next episode, which will be Rising Anxieties on Tuesday, which of course is following your bonus content coming out on Monday if you're in the flock.

We'll talk to you next time.