The Hen Report: “It’s Over” | Declining Industry, Oregon IP28 & Animal Rights News

On this week’s Hen Report, Jasmin and Mariann cover a packed week of animal rights news, kicking off with a cringe-worthy DM urging a vegan to accept “happy” backyard eggs — and why you don’t owe anyone a debate. They explore the theory that the meat industry, like Big Oil, is seeing the writing on the wall and quietly trying to squeeze out its final profits before a plant-based future arrives. The conversation ranges from joyful to hopeful to legally fraught. They also unpack mixed news on fur at Milan Fashion Week, the eternal frustration of the foie gras ban battles, and a genuinely exciting development: Oregon’s IP28, a sweeping ballot initiative that could eliminate all exemptions to the state’s animal cruelty laws and effectively make Oregon a sanctuary state for animals.

• Animal activism strategy: Why vegans don’t owe anyone a debate — and how to decide when engaging is worth your energy
• Meat industry decline: The case that beef and other animal ag are following Big Oil’s playbook, fighting a rearguard action against an inevitable plant-based shift
• Ridglan & open rescue: Wayne Hsiung, Aditya Aswani, Michelle Lunsky, & Dean Wyrzykowski face up to 31 years in prison after new charges in the landmark Ridglan Farms case
• Fur & foie gras policy: Milan Fashion Week issues voluntary (not mandatory) anti-fur guidelines; New York’s foie gras ban faces a governor-led appeal, while Colorado activists push a new ballot initiative
• Oregon IP28: The most ambitious animal rights ballot initiative in U.S. history nears the signature threshold — and could ban hunting, fishing, and slaughter statewide

RESOURCES

• • • • • NoPalm Ingredients Shortlisted for World’s Largest Environmental Food Prize
        • Attorney Faces Felony Burglary Charges After an ‘Open Rescue’ Action to Save Beagles At Ridglan Farms
        • Coalition to Abolish the Fur Trade
        • Voters for Animal Rights on Bluesky
        • BREAKING: New Footage Captured At Hudson Valley Reveals Ducks Force-Fed With Metal Tubes, Living In Filth
        • Yes on IP28
        • 3 Day Vigil Event.
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    INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

    Jasmin Singer: Welcome to "The Hen Report." This is Jasmin Singer.

    Mariann Sullivan: This is Mariann Sullivan.

    Jasmin Singer: And the Our Hen House podcasts are trickling into your life just like the sunshine.

    Show More Transcript

    Uh, Rising Anxiety comes out on Tuesdays. The Hen Report, which is this, comes out on Thursdays, and the long form interview on Fridays. Bonus for flock members comes out on Mondays.

    Don't forget, we are on YouTube. We're also on any podcatcher, so subscribe, hit like, comment wherever you listen.

    So we got a message from someone we know, and, uh, th- this-- she had gotten a, like a DM from a, a colleague, and it said the following: "I know you're a vegan." And by the way, you're is Y-E-R. I feel like that's important for some reason.

    Mariann Sullivan: I, I knew that would annoy you,

    Jasmin Singer: It's so annoying.

    Mariann Sullivan: on 'cause that's not what we're talking about

    Jasmin Singer: "But I got farm eggs this weekend," speaking of annoying, "and what I mean by that are, like, properly free-range ones that no one eats the chickens except for the hawks. They live happy lives until sniped from above. You want some eggs?" And then the friend replies, "No thank you." And then the person replies again, "Okay. Some vegans can be converted by happy non-edible chickens, which are very happy, wink." And

    Mariann Sullivan: Seriously, I mean, we, we run into a lot of this crap, but this is one of the weirdest ones I've ever seen . It's really bizarre.

    Jasmin Singer: I know

    Mariann Sullivan: Th- they think that the... Are they trying to convert vegans? Like, why do they care? It's, I mean, we, uh, we do have, we are told this is a person who kind of clearly it's on her mind, so I shouldn't be too cold, but it's just so bizarre. Also, I would say being, being attacked by a hawk isn't the best way to go, but, you know, that's, th- that's a minor detail here

    Jasmin Singer: W- w- well, it's, you

    Mariann Sullivan: There's so much.

    Jasmin Singer: There's so much here. Yeah, I mean, honestly, like I said, as soon as this person wrote "yer," I would've just, like, unfriended them. But, uh, I digress. That is not the point. The word happy is three times in this tiny little discussion. Three times. And, uh, yeah, like, uh, what, what, what would you do if you got a message like that?

    Mariann Sullivan: I think I would do exactly what this person did and just say, "No, thank you."

    Jasmin Singer: And then

    Mariann Sullivan: This person is clearly having a conversation with themselves

    Jasmin Singer: Hmm

    Mariann Sullivan: and putting, putting us in, in the place of the opposition, and we don't have to take that role. Uh, do I have to do-- Does one have to explain that chickens' lives actually matter?

    That, uh, that there's no such... Like, do you have to go through the whole thing? I don't think so at this point.

    Jasmin Singer: Back in the day when we used to do these vegan workshops, we would say that you have every right to just say this kind of eating really works for me. You don't have to get into it.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

    Jasmin Singer: You can, but you don't have to. A lot of our energy is, uh, you know, kind of sucked out of our souls these days, so preserve what you have.

    Mariann Sullivan: I'm not even sure what's good activism here. Is explaining why this is incorrect in a lot of ways, uh, that, you know, and going into the question of where do they get the, uh, the chicks from and the, like, all those que- Is that what this person needs or does this person just really have to, like, sit with the fact that some people are perfectly happy being vegan and don't want your stupid eggs?

    Like, ew.

    Jasmin Singer: You know what, though? Like, I think that the answer to whether it's good activism really depends on, you know, the moment and the person who's on the other end of it. I just know this made our, our friend crazy because she's super activist-minded and probably recognized that this isn't the right time, and that can be really hard when you recognize that it's not the right time to engage.

    Mariann Sullivan: And I, you know, like we never know what's the right time anyway, so just do whatever feels right. I mean, other than, like not speaking up when it's possible to do so. But the way you speak up and the way you make it clear, like is totally up to you and can vary according, not just to how the other per- you think the other person's gonna respond, but then, you know, your mood and everything.

    Like, living, being a vegan activist all the time

    is hard. I mean, and we should be it all the time, but that doesn't mean we have to always do it the same way.

    Jasmin Singer: But do you think it's possible

    Mariann Sullivan: So hilarious. Some vegans can be converted. Like, like, like we're do- I don't know. Like, like what does that mean? Why would she wanna convert vegans?

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Do you know, uh, do you think

    Mariann Sullivan: To make herself feel better?

    Jasmin Singer: So I don't know. It's so dumb. But

    Mariann Sullivan: Non-edible chickens. I guess the hawks found them edible. mean, also keeping chicken, I've-- That in and of itself, though it's not something I would go into, I guess. But when you keep chickens out in a pen, yeah, hawks are gonna get them. They're supposed to be up in trees where the hawks can't get them.

    Like, they've thought this through

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm. Do you think that this person,

    do you think that this person s- notices that the writing is on the wall? Because I think that there are some big industries that are certainly noticing that.

    Mariann Sullivan: This is the thing I've been thinking about. And, you know, there's a lot of people talking about how the fossil fuel industry I mean, not a lot of people, a few people. What, what's really going on here on their push to get every damn drop of oil out of the United States in the past 10 years with all the fracking and everything, just, just oil, oil, oil, and the whole Trump administration like saying all alternative energy is terrible, like for no conceivable reason. It's that the oil indust- obviously, the oil industry knows that its time is limited, and it wants to, you know, its, its oil while it's still sellable, uh, and, and, and make as much money as possible so that they can then live on a burning planet. Like, I don't know, but they'll have a lot of money to do it with.

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: I feel like maybe the meat industry, not everybody in the meat industry by any means, but the meat industry is kind of in the same position, only people are much less savvy that it's, you know, it's over. I mean, especially beef. Like it's over. Like except for the counting, and unfortunately... I don't know, why did I say counting?

    But, but unfortunately a lot of animals are gonna die, and they're gonna drag it out as long as possible, but it's over. I, I really think that. Um,

    Jasmin Singer: I, you know, I

    Mariann Sullivan: th- everything they're doing is just trying to keep it going as long as possible.

    Jasmin Singer: My stomach just growled so loudly that I think it's possible my mic picked it up. Just wanted to say that. Uh, I haven't eaten breakfast yet. I agree, and I think that that is an interesting perspective to go through the rest of the Hen Report with today because as I'm glancing at the articles that we wanted to chat about, I think if you th- if you think about them in terms of it's, you know, it's over, they know that, it, it, it can feel really good.

    Like, it can feel...

    Mariann Sullivan: Well, it's a good feeling anyway.

    Jasmin Singer: It is. It is. Uh

    Mariann Sullivan: Sort of, though it's so frustrating when it should actually be over.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah

    Mariann Sullivan: And they're gonna drag it out as long as they possibly can, and people are stupidly going to participate thinking that, there's the plant-based people and the meat people, and it's all the same difference and, and, and, and without any recognition that, that one is a dying industry in every possible way.

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, let's grab onto the joy where we can because, you know, it's just been, it's been so taxing to just be involved in anything that is fighting for the greater good of any- anyone. And one place where I'm finding a lot of joy, in addition to recognizing that the industry is, is kind of seeing the writing on the wall, is this app you told me about, Merlin.

    Mariann Sullivan: Oh yeah, I love Merlin.

    It's from Cornell, and it's free.

    Uh, Cornell has a huge ornithological, uh, school,

    Jasmin Singer: Uh, yeah,

    Mariann Sullivan: or department or whatever.

    Jasmin Singer: I mentioned it to a group of people and, like, a lot of them already knew about it, so I, I might be l- late to the party here. But it basically allows you to record wherever you are, and it will identify the birds that are in your area that it can hear. You could also do it by visual, I think, but I've only done it by

    Mariann Sullivan: Except who can see them? Like,

    Jasmin Singer: Right

    Mariann Sullivan: Like it would be really hard to find them. They're very good at like hanging out in the trees. But,

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah

    Mariann Sullivan: you, you just turn this app on and it tells you 10 different birds that are in your yard at the moment and you didn't know any of them were there. It's so... I love it.

    Jasmin Singer: I know

    Mariann Sullivan: You're supposed to actually confirm by seeing them

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah

    Mariann Sullivan: You can't count them on your list, which I don't know why, because your list is just your own business, I think. But you're not supposed to count them on your list, because, you know, birdwatchers, they're really into their lists. I just like to know who's there.

    I do sometimes, you know, they've identified a couple of things for me, and then you go to it and they're like, "This is unlikely." Like they know that, you know, they know when they probably got it wrong

    Jasmin Singer: Wait, can I tell you something that just occurred to me that's funny? Wouldn't it be funny if the birds are up in their trees or wherever they hang out and they have their little phones and they have their own app that's identifying us and they're like, "Racist asshole," or like, like, "Eats birds, run." You know?

    Um, or, or like, um, you know, uh, "Rescues cats, run." Anyway...

    Mariann Sullivan: I wonder if it would identify a chicken since like so many bird people,

    Jasmin Singer: Ooh.

    Mariann Sullivan: that chickens are birds

    Jasmin Singer: It would be so cool to do this at a sanctuary. I know that we have some listeners who run sanctuaries, so if you do, get the Merlin app and do it

    Mariann Sullivan: It's free

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, and I'm v- and let us know. I'm really curious. Okay, so this next story, uh, w- as reported by Vegconomist, uh, is something that I think would make a lot of vegans happy, which is that No Palm ingredients are shortlisted for the world's largest environmental prize.

    And, and what No Palm ingredients is, is a Dutch fermentation company, and so it's trying to basically have a stand-in for palm oil. Keep talking. I have to open the door 'cause Murray is whining and crying and needs to come in.

    Mariann Sullivan: Well, I'm not sure I, I have that much to say. I just think this is gonna make a lot of people really happy if they can make it happen.

    It grows oleaginous, that's such a fun word, yeast in industrial fermentation tanks, and they, they use garbage. I mean, basically food industry side streams like potato peels that produce the fats, and then they, they turn...

    Somehow in the magic of modern science, they, they turn those fats into, um, something that is... It's not palm oil, but it has the same functionality as palm o- palm oil. Like, this would be miraculous. I mean, I'm sure everybody listening knows how bad palm oil is and, and how it's, um, it, it... farming palm oil has just devastated so many, um, rainforests,

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: orangutan, um, habitat, and it's just a terrible, terrible product. So that... I, I thought that would be a cheery article.

    Jasmin Singer: It is. I love it when there's,

    Mariann Sullivan: That

    Jasmin Singer: alternatives to

    Mariann Sullivan: I have, though, is not very cheery.

    Jasmin Singer: Alright, let's do it.

    Mariann Sullivan: We've all been excited about Ridglan,

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm

    Mariann Sullivan: justifiably so, and all knew that, you know, people got arrested, and it wasn't gonna just end there. And now, um, charges have been brought by, uh, four def- a-against four defendants who got into Ridgeland, um, uh, one of them is Wayne Hsiung. Um, then there's Dean Wyrzykowski, Michelle Lunsky, and Aditya Aswani, and they've all been charged. They've been charged with very s- at first they were charged with, um, just one count, and then when they showed up for arraignment, they added a bunch of different counts, which is how it always happens, so that's not that unusual. And, uh, they all pleaded not guilty, of course. And, you know, this, the, the arrests and the trials are part of the, um, Open Rescue theory of change, but it can't help but be upsetting when you hear it happening. And, um, this is from the, um, the first, uh, Ridglan break-in. Um, I should mention that.

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: We haven't yet, um, uh, seen the charges laid, um, related to the, the second break-in.

    Jasmin Singer: Ugh

    Mariann Sullivan: Uh, according to this article, they each face up to 31 years in prison if convicted on all counts. I don't know whether that's true, 'cause it sounds like some of these counts would have to run, um, concurrently, uh, which means that the sentence is gonna, y- they, they're, they, they can't run one after each other.

    But I don't know that th-that's the case. That's just, you know, it looks like. In any case, that's insane. I mean, the likelihood of that is very small. One of the things they try to do is really, like, load on the counts, I mean, in any kind of criminal case, load on the counts so, um, make it more likely they'll get a guilty plea 'cause it's so scary, but, uh, justifiably scary. Um, so yeah, that sucks.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, that really sucks.

    Mariann Sullivan: But, you know, it's, it, it was anticipated, so.

    Jasmin Singer: Ugh. Alright, well, I get-- Do you feel like... Yeah, go ahead

    Mariann Sullivan: Wayne's conviction in the Sonoma case, which is a long time ago, but it finally went up on appeal, didn't totally get reversed on appeal, but a lot of it did, and we'll be talking to the lawyers on that and Wayne himself, I think, um, in next month's, June's, um, Animal Law Podcast.

    Jasmin Singer: Hmm. Alright, well, we'll stay tuned for that. The next bit of news we wanted to go over here, how would you categorize it? Good news, not good news?

    Mariann Sullivan: No, I don't think it's good news.

    Jasmin Singer: Okay

    Mariann Sullivan: But yeah, some people think it's good news. I mean, and I, this is really an update because we had Suzie Stork on from Coalition to Abolish the Fur Trade not too long ago, and she talked about their campaign ab- against Milan Fashion Week, um, in Italy, of course, Milan, Italy.

    Jasmin Singer: Milan Fashion. I love that, that, that like

    Mariann Sullivan: flashion

    Jasmin Singer: you said Milan Fashion Week.

    Mariann Sullivan: No, I, I'm trying to be sophisticated.

    Jasmin Singer: It worked.

    Mariann Sullivan: All right. There have been some animal groups who have come out congratulatory to what Milan Fashion Week has done, and what, and, and, but CAFT is not congratulatory. They say it falls short. What they've done, um, you know, Milan Fashion Week is one of the fashion shows left that still allow fur on the runways, and they've released guidelines asking brands not to show fur. but it is not required. And, um, you know, I think CAFT is right, that it's not enough. Uh, like, if it's wrong, it's wrong, and it should be, um, should be stated like that. But this is definit- you know, sometimes a compromise, you have to ac- accept that it's still progress. It's not the pro- all the progress you wanted, but it's still progress, so it's still great to see.

    Um, there, there are a few additional recommendations that, um, they ignored, uh, including, um, excluding vintage and upcycled fur and, and, and fur sourced by Indigenous communities and whatever. So I love CAFT. They're unbelievable. Um... and the Fashion, um, week has lost three major sponsors: Wella, DHL, and Visa.

    That has gotta be a lot of money. Um, so they're amazing, just amazing. So that's, that is actually progress, but not all the progress that they wanted. So good for them for saying, "No, not enough."

    Jasmin Singer: You know who would be, uh, pulling out as a sponsor if she had been a sponsor originally

    Mariann Sullivan: No

    Jasmin Singer: Cher.

    Mariann Sullivan: Oh, right. You're reading Cher's biography.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, so I'm reading Cher's memoir, part one.

    Mariann Sullivan: Memoir, memoir

    Jasmin Singer: And, uh, and she was talking a lot about fashion, which has been a big part of her her brand and her life and her career. And she was talking about fur, and then she s- and I was like, "Ugh, gross," you know? And then she said, "Of course, now I'd rather die than wear fur, but at the time I didn't know better."

    And I was like, "Yeah, Cher." And then she just reiterated it again. So, um, I, I don't know. It's just a little aside that Cher is such, such a huge, giant force of nature, so unbelievably famous in, like, icon status that it's just nice to see someone like that standing against it and...

    Mariann Sullivan: No, it's t- uh, it's great.

    It's great. Especially somebody of the, um, the older faction.

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm. It's a really fun listen, by the way. Although the weird thing is she's only half narrating it. She-- The woman who played her on Broadway in the story of her, Stephanie Block, is also narrating it. I, I find that a little jarring, admittedly. But that aside, this is not the Cher podcast. This is Our Hen House, not Our Cher House.

    Mariann Sullivan: Should we, should we totally change our beat?

    From now on it's all Cher, all the time?

    Jasmin Singer: Well, let's think about that, but for now let's discuss foie gras yet again.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I-- the reason I wanted to talk about this, this has been ha- these articles have been hanging around on our list for a couple of weeks, they are important to talk about, but also you've been really kind of like, uh, just, just expressing on an emotional level like, "Jeez, foie gras, can't we ever win anything?" and this has two ar- one is, as we know, New York City instituted a foie gras ban. It appealed, um, or a, a court case was brought. the city won, uh, they're allowed to block foie gras, now the governor is, is appealing, um, because it was a state agency that had originally said, "No, New York City can't ban the sale of foie gras."

    And so the governor, Governor Hochul, like what the fuck, Governor Hochul? Like this is ridiculous, is appealing to the Court of Appeals. I mean, they, they don't-- the Court of Appeals doesn't have to take it, so we don't even know whether they're taking it again. so they have to keep like, uh, arguing this, whether New York City is allowed to pass its own rules.

    W- like it's ridiculous. Ridiculous. And the other thing is, is there's, there's a ballot initiative going on in Colorado, uh, which you're probably aware of, by Pro Animal Colorado, and, uh, about b- to ban foie gras. And, um, a few weeks ago, Pro Animal Future put out a, um, a, a press release revealing that they had done an undercover investigation at Hudson Valley Foie Gras, a place you are terribly familiar with, and I, I use the word terrible advisedly, um, showing d- ducks being force-fed with metal tubes and how, you know, the disgusting, filthy conditions and in order to support that ballot initiative and also just to reveal to people how bad foie gras really is, 'cause it's disgusting. But I guess the question always is, why we focus so much energy on foie gras when it's bad, but so is everything else, and nobody eats it in the United States except for like some people who moved here from France?

    Jasmin Singer: I, I know even among everyone always says, "Oh, it's, it's among the elite, it's among the elite." I, I don't think that's really

    the case.

    Mariann Sullivan: Some people do, but it's

    not like...

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, but it's not that common. And I understand that that mean- that makes it low-hanging fruit. I understand... Or low-hanging diseased fatty liver.

    I understand that that makes it something that maybe is winnable in a world where very little is and, and so we focus on the low-hanging fruit. But I don't know. When, when you said that my, that my gripe with it is emotional, like it does sort of just feel like seriously? Again?

    Mariann Sullivan: We're doing this again?

    Jasmin Singer: I mean, it doesn't...

    Mariann Sullivan: won this yet?

    Jasmin Singer: And if,

    Mariann Sullivan: like

    Jasmin Singer: like I just don't-- I'm not saying give up, I'm just saying like maybe do something else.

    And, and when, and just kind of hearkening back...

    Mariann Sullivan: you've been doing this longer than a lot of people. They haven't done it before.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah. So does that-- I mean, what does that, what does that mean in terms of strategy though?

    Mariann Sullivan: When you've been in the movement for a long time, sometimes you get jaded about certain campaigns that people coming in see more value in. And I do think that Pro Animal Future, uh, is-- like, they really think about strategy. This is not a casual decision. And, and I assume that, you know, they- doing a ballot initiative.

    The last ballot initiative they did was about slaughterhouses, and they lost that, but they got 25% of the vote, which is kind of amazing when you think about it. Um, and I'm sure that they have a strategy, a long-term strategy here. It's just that I, I, with you, are all like, I hear about it and I'm like, "Oh my God, foie gras?"

    Nobody even knows what it is. Nobody can pronounce it.

    Jasmin Singer: I know. I, I, I, I'm not being critical of anyone's

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I get it.

    Jasmin Singer: efforts.

    I just, yeah, I do wanna be very clear that m- my point is do s- do something and, and if that's what you're doing, then that's amazing. Like thank you for doing that work. And I, I, I guess I just... There's so many l- loopholes policy-wise constantly, like endlessly.

    And, and to your point, hearkening back to your point from like the beginning of this discussion about how the industry is seeing the writing on the wall, then maybe it's time to like go big. Like, and what do I mean by that, of course, is, you know. But I mean, I think that

    Mariann Sullivan: that maybe what you mean is yes on IP 28 in Oregon, which is the exact opposite ballot initiative.

    Jasmin Singer: Tell us about it.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, and I'm, I mean, to be f- be clear, I mean, as always, I try to be open-minded about... And I am seriously not... I, I love that all of these different things are going on at the same time, and I do think Pro-Animal Future sees a foie gras ban as its, as a foot in the door.

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: You know, they're not just thinking of it in a limited sense as something you can just win. IP 28, we had David Michelsen to talk about this on several years ago, and, um, it, it is a ballot initiative that has been proposed several times in Oregon, but they've never before gotten the signatures. And this year it looks like they either have them, I... There were a few articles and they were saying different things.

    They either have the signatures, which is something, it's around 120,000, or they're very close to getting them. Um, just because they have the signatures does not mean it's going on the ballot. Then it has to go to the secretary of state, so God knows what'll happen there. But it's an unbelievable ballot initiative. It basically, it eliminates all exemptions to the cruelty law in Oregon, which means that it would be against the law to kill animals, and it would be against the law to, um, hunt animals, and, and fish, and slaughter, and, um, and pretty much th- it would make Oregon what they called a, a, or they were calling a while ago, um, a sanctuary state.

    I don't know whether they're still using that language. I highly recommend going and looking this up because it's, it's, it's like, what?

    Jasmin Singer: That's what I... Yeah, that is exactly what I mean. That, and, and I'm, I'm g- I'm so happy that that is here to discuss today because I, I, when I said go big, and again, I'm just talking about on an emotional level, like I was thinking about open rescue, which obviously people have been doing forever. Um, but I was thinking about like the incredible, uh, the incredible press that Ridglan has gotten.

    Um, obviously that's dogs, uh, and there's obviously a big difference in people's minds between dogs and farmed animals. But if we're tying things up in policy, then why not tie up like these bigger asks, these, these like broader definitions of liberation?

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

    Jasmin Singer: I... Right. Exactly. And,

    Mariann Sullivan: like that there's all these different things going on at the same time?

    Jasmin Singer: I love that.

    Mariann Sullivan: Because since none of us actually have any idea what'll work, and, and to, you know, to some extent we're not even sure this'll make it onto the ballot. I mean, fingers crossed. Uh, and but it still opens up...

    The further it gets, the more it opens up conversations. And, you know, I was googling it to find the website before, um, before we talked about it, and there's a lot of conversation already, mostly from the hunting community. It seems like the animal ag is just trying to sort of stay out of it, which is really interesting. Uh, I love it. Love it.

    Jasmin Singer: I do too. I, I do too.

    Mariann Sullivan: I, I remember I don't remember the inter- view intimately 'cause it was a while ago, but I do remember David saying, and I think this is really true, "At last, activists have something to work on that they really believe in." You know? Working on, on minor welfare reforms is so hard for so many animal advocates, even if they believe it's the right thing to do, it just, you know, it steals your soul.

    Jasmin Singer: I didn't know you were gonna say that, and I, I was sitting here thinking about how a really important part of activism is to be true to who you are as an activist. And so if, you know, anti-foie gras campaigns are not your thing, then do something else. But if they are, then do that. You know? And, and, and I love what you just said in light of that, just to think that there's, you know, something legislative related, legis- legislation related I should say, that people can really get behind in a way that is genuine to who they are.

    I, I really do love that.

    Mariann Sullivan: And there's also the interesting aspect that people actually, when surveyed, majority of people think we should ban slaughterhouses. It's so bizarre. People are just bizarre. So maybe they'll vote for it.

    Jasmin Singer: J- uh, it makes me think of Gretchen's T-shirt. Gretchen was on last week and she had her T-shirt on, "Shut down all slaughterhouses."

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

    Jasmin Singer: And it's like...

    Mariann Sullivan: agrees with you,

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, right,

    Mariann Sullivan: Even as they chomp on their hamburger. People are bizarre.

    Jasmin Singer: I mean, uh-huh. Totally. All right. Uh, should w- are we mentioning this protest? That's this weekend, right? This three-day vigil. Uh, there's a three-day vigil.

    Mariann Sullivan: mention it?

    Jasmin Singer: No, I don't think we mentioned... Well, we did last week, but I'll just mention it again really quickly 'cause it's this weekend. So if you're listening to this immediately when it comes out, as I'm sure you are, uh, there is a Marshall BioResources peaceful vigil May 28th to the 30th, uh, in North Rose, New York, which is very close to Rochester.

    And this is to f- uh, another beagle facility where there's, I think 20,000, more than 20,000 beagles being,

    Mariann Sullivan: No, 20,000 animals.

    Jasmin Singer: Being held. Oh, okay. Thank you. 20,000 animals.

    Mariann Sullivan: Not all beagles

    Jasmin Singer: We will link to that in the show notes as well as the other articles we've discussed today per usual. And just to remind you, Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays, The Long Form Interview on Fridays, and bonus for Flock members comes out on Mondays.

    And thank you if you are a Flock member. We will talk to you next time.

    ⇧ Close Transcript

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