The Hen Report: “Vegan-Colored Glasses” | Beagles, Angela Davis & Plant-Based Athletes

In this week’s Hen Report, Jasmin Singer and Mariann Sullivan cover a lively mix of animal advocacy news, pop culture, and vegan messaging. They discuss Sangamithra Iyer’s new memoir Governing Bodies and its LA Times review, celebrate vegan powerlifter Katya Gorbacheva’s post-partum championship win, and unpack Angela Davis’s shout-out to animal rights at a college commencement. The episode also digs into a Faunalytics study showing that simply asking people to take an animal’s perspective can meaningfully shift their dietary choices — and closes with the ongoing good news out of Ridglan Farms, where another 135 beagles are being rescued.

Sangamithra Iyer’s Governing Bodies: The Our Hen House alum’s new memoir earns a glowing LA Times review for weaving veganism, nonviolence, and animal rights into a personal and political narrative
Vegan athlete spotlight: Russian powerlifter Katya Gorbacheva wins Best Lifter at Moscow Lights just eight months postpartum — proof that plant-based eating builds elite strength
Angela Davis on animal rights: The iconic activist used her Pitzer College commencement address to endorse PETA’s dining-hall memorial campaign and call out the “absolute horrific treatment of animals”
The power of perspective-taking: A Faunalytics study finds that asking people to view footage from the animal’s point of view produces a reduction in meat consumption
Ridglan Farms rescue update: 135 more beagles are being freed, adding to the 1,500 already released — and Mariann urges advocates to channel this momentum toward all animals, not just dogs

RESOURCES

- INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
  
  Jasmin Singer: Welcome to the Hen Report. This is Jasmin Singer.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: This is Mariann Sullivan
  
  Jasmin Singer: And we're here from Our Hen House to your hen house. Rising Anxieties, which is part of the Our Hen House world, comes out on Tuesdays. The Hen Report, which is this, on Thursdays, and the long form interview on Fridays. Bonus for flock members comes out on Mondays, and we've had some really cool bonus lately.
  
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  So if you are not in the flock, think about joining at ourhenhouse.org/support. We are a nonprofit, so it's all tax deductible to the full extent of the law. And if you are in the flock and you're not listening to your bonus content and you have questions about that, then drop us a line at info@ourhenhouse.org.
  
  We are a podcast and we're on YouTube. Hit subscribe, hit like and comment wherever you listen.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: We need to cut that, that intro. I hate, you know, I hate it when I'm watching a video and there's this long, long, long, long, long, intro.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Do you think that was long?
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yes.
  
  Jasmin Singer: We-- Okay. Well, I think you wrote it.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I'm the concise one.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm. Especially when you discuss how much you don't like a long intro, it doesn't elongate it at all. Uh, so my play closed and I'm feeling that empty sadness that one feels after a play closes, like a giant adrenaline dump.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I am unfamiliar with that sadness.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah, well, you're familiar with it by looking at me over the years.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I would be relieved that my play closed.
  
  Jasmin Singer: You'd be like, "How the fuck did I get in a play in the first place? Why am I doing this?" Uh, I, I will say that I did a very good job advocating for veganism throughout the process. I was probably, um, pretty annoying, in fact. Uh, the cast party wound up being completely vegan, which was kind of not even on purpose.
  
  Like, everyone just sort of brought vegan things because I was gonna be there. And that made me think of this, this thing you've been talking about recently, which is kind of your messaging that you like about helping people to make decisions to go vegan. Why don't you talk about that a little bit?
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Well, I don't know whether there's that much to talk about. Like, uh, it's not a really big deal. But I, I have decided I like the expression choose vegan. Does anybody use that?
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yes.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I'm not sure I've ever seen like a sweatshirt or... all right. Find me the site so I can like get the bumper sticker.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, it, it was, um, it was formerly, uh, Compassion Over Killing. That was what it was called at the time, uh, which has, which changed its name, and of course I can't... Thank you. Animal Outlook. Uh, they, they've done sh- and When I saw Gretchen recently in Woodstock, she, uh, she had like a Choose Veg bumper sticker on her car.
  
  Um, so you can definitely get that. I mean, I think it's Choose Veg. In fact, her bumper sticker was so old.
  
  Her bumper sticker was so old that she had to like, basically she touched it and it like disintegrated in her hands. So hopefully, hopefully it did its due diligence.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I feel like it's aggressive go vegan. And, I also-- Oh, I know the other thing I wanted to say. It doesn't like ex- It doesn't exactly say go vegan. It's like it, it could mean choose to, choose to be vegan, choose to lead a vegan lifestyle, choose the vegan option at lunch.
  
  It can mean a whole lot of different things, which I think is good in messaging.
  
  Jasmin Singer: So ch-
  
  Mariann Sullivan: This is not that interesting.
  
  Jasmin Singer: No, I just wanna say that I was wrong about something. I know, shocking. The chooseveg.com website is run by Mercy For Animals.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Alright
  
  Jasmin Singer: Uh, but anyway, y- you l- you just like the idea of choice and rather than...
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I think it appeals to people.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Hmm. Okay. Uh, I, I could see, I could see why. Maybe I'll shift my messaging a little bit as well and see how it goes.
  
  I'm sure everyone will go vegan. Something else that really appeals to people is Sangu Iyer, uh, who
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I, I really love your segues.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Sangamithra Iyer.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: They're not forced at all
  
  Jasmin Singer: No. and and we wanted to just chat about this attention she's getting.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Well I mean, we've talked about her book, Governing Bodies. Um, it's her new book, and of course, Sangu is, is an old friend. She's been on the podcast in the past. And this is a memoir, and it's a memoir about her... Well, it's a personal memoir and also a memoir about her family, um, and which, you know, has a long history in British India and, um, with, uh, being part of Gandhi's movement. Like, it's fascinating. And Also her personal journey. But this review-- and it, it involves animals. It involves a lot else as well. But there's this great review in the LA Times, and it really emphasizes the animals, and I love that. Uh, the-- Actually, the name of the article, the name of the review is Losing Our Cruelty.
  
  It's by Parul Kapur. And, um, Sangamithra Iyer discusses strategies for living ethically, incorporating veganism, non-violence, and truth into fractal responsibility. It, it's emphasizing, this, this part, which I know is, you know, a huge, huge part of Sangu's, um, uh, life and thought.
  
  I'll just take a, a quick quote, but I highly recommend it, but not everybody can get the LA Times 'cause you have to pay for it.
  
  But, um, this is from the very beginning of the article from Sangu. Um, "Sometime in middle school, I declared not eating meat as my choice, not a familial obligation." Her family had been vegetarian. "This would later expand into veganism and connect with other causes. My gravitation toward animal rights is where my courage and sense of justice
  
  first formed." Love that.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I love it too.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: So I highly recommend that. And actually, Sangu's writing career, well, she's been writing for a long time, and we can prove that because in our very, very, very short-lived publishing arm, The Hen Press, we published two works, and one of them was, uh, was by Sangu. And let's see, where's the link to that? Um, and you can get it on Amazon. You can still get it. I mean, it's, it's, it's an e-version. Uh, it's called The Lines We Draw. It was so good.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: It was so good. It was very Sangu. And it was, um, it was about th-the use of, uh, of chimpanzees in medical research and about the, the whole story of how the New York Blood Center's chimpanzee research colony in Liberia, uh, translated into a sanctuary.
  
  A fascinating story, weird characters, like strange and, and, and beautiful and horrible. Uh, so i-in addition to her latest book, I, I recommend her old... It's not really... It, it, it's short. It's sh-- it's, it's short nonfiction. Um, you know, longer than an article, shorter than a book. Um, and it's called The Lines We Draw, and it's, it's... you can get it on Kindle.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Those were fun days.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yes. We've, we've tried, we've tried a bunch of things. We
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah
  
  Mariann Sullivan: We tried to be publishers. We... That might be easier nowadays. Um, you know. Well, it would be actually harder because people can publish their stuff anywhere they want. They can just get on Substack and they don't need us.
  
  Jasmin Singer: It is an interesting question that I think is important to constantly ask ourselves organizationally and also personally, like what need do we need to fill and what do we do really well? So some of the things that we've dropped along the lo- along the way has been because others were already doing it and they were doing it better or,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: How about animal sounds? We used to do animal sounds during the podcast and we dropped that. I'm, uh, I'm ready to go back.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Vicki's gonna murder you, and I'm not talking about A Murder of Crows. Uh, that was when I was editing it and, and it was very fun indeed to put like chicken sounds here and there. Uh, so I like that you pulled this article out from Plant Based News to briefly cover because, you know, it's always nice when the idea that vegans are weak, uh, or that they're, you know, meek are- is sort of thrown on its head, and it certainly has been recently.
  
  Why don't you tell us why?
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Uh, Katya Gorbacheva. I don't know whether she's, she's related to Gorbachev. Uh, sort of a similar name. All right. She is, you know, she is... Well, I won't say she's the man, uh, because she's the woman, but this so crazy. All right. She, she won best lifter, um, at, uh, at, at, uh, Moscow Lights. It's, I, I guess it's a, it's, you know, it's a big, um, Russian competition. And this was... all right, it's, w- none of us think it's remarkable that she's vegan because of course vegans are strong and, and we know that, but she's vegan. This is also eight months after she gave birth. I would still be in bed. Oh my God.
  
  So, uh, yeah, go Katya!
  
  Jasmin Singer: I'd be in bed 18 years after I gave birth, to be honest.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Oh,
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I love these people.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I know. I do too.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Even though they make me feel like a loser, I still love them anyway.
  
  Jasmin Singer: All right, well, on the subject of people we love who make us feel like losers, uh,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Oh, let me just read her quote.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah, go ahead.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: "The female body is amazing. We can create life only to come back stronger."
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah, baby.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I love her.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I also love Angela Davis. I have for so long. And one of the things that's so cool about Angela Davis is that she's vegan and that, like, she gets a lot of cred and attention for the incredible work she does in social justice, but people don't necessarily think of her veganism and her, uh, you know, animal advocacy.
  
  But now they're thinking about it a lot more.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Um, this was a, uh, talk she gave at Pitzer College. She was the commencement speaker and, um... Alright, this is a, this is a horrible thing to say s- start off, but oh my God, she's so old. Uh, I just like, like people who are sort of the sa- I think she's probably a little older than I am, um, but people who are sort of the same age than I am, I'm always astounded how old they look when I look exactly the same as I did when I was 25. Anyway, she's this commencement speech and, you know, she's just talking in general about, about, uh, you know, how to be a good person and political and, and accomplish things, and she, she decides to remark on, on the fact that the... I think she just saw it when she was coming in. That was my impression anyway. There was this, this campaign that PETA's been doing, um, getting people to put up plaques outside dining halls honoring the animals killed for food, and she noted it and, um, talked about how important it was and to, to recognize the absolute horrific treatment of, of animals. And, you know, she, she, uh, takes it- she makes a point of saying this is very serious, and I love that. So go, Angela.
  
  I'm sorry you're so old. Well, you know, no I'm not, because your only choice would be to be dead, so I'm really glad you're so old!
  
  Jasmin Singer: This is my favorite story that we're covering today, just so you know. I love this.
  
  Yeah, it just makes me so happy.
  
  Uh, happier than the films that I haven't seen because that means we haven't been going to the movies, and I really wanna go to the movies.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Well, these are not all at the movies. We could have seen them on TV, but I, I put 'em in here in our list of things to talk about because we can't, like, make people wait until we see something in order to let them know about it in case they don't already, which I'm sure a lot of people do. But because we're losers and, and we're not, we're, like, just because. One thing, the one that is in the theater is The Sheep Detectives, and our friend Lydia saw it. She said the m- I wondered whether this was even an animal rights film, but she says it is.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I mean, she does suffer from the disease that we suffer from, which is that we see everything through, uh,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Vegan-colored glass.
  
  Yeah. We started to watch, uh, uh, All Creatures Great and Small yesterday, the PBS show. We didn't get very far. I mean, it is a good show, but it was just, like, inherently exploitative.
  
  And it's about a veterinarian, and, uh, like, we really only got, like, 10, 15 minutes into the first episode. But in it
  
  Mariann Sullivan: The new one. There were two. There was an older one and then...
  
  Jasmin Singer: Oh, okay.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: The new one,
  
  Jasmin Singer: Uh,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: one,
  
  Jasmin Singer: I guess,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: It's like maybe the past five years or so.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah.
  
  And there was just this scene where they were talking about these farmed animals, and I can't exactly remember what they said, but it had to do with, you know, the way they were, you know, going to be-- the way they were going to become food or whatever.
  
  And Moore thought that they were going to be remarking on the, like how they were feeling like how the animals were feeling and how they were, how they were doing. And it just, you know, we just are wired differently, aren't we? Or are we? Are we?
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Talk about vegan-colored lenses. That really is.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I know
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I um, I have tried to watch that, but, uh, I guess the same as you, but also I just don't watch anything anymore. I, uh, I don't know, fiction is, like, making me nuts. I watched the old one. I did like the old one. It was maybe about 20 years ago. But the, the, the books were an enormously formative part of my life. I loved the books. This was well before I was vegetarian or vegan.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Um, and I really think even though they didn't suggest vegetarianism or veganism, that they were part of my process in, in, like, just thinking about animals. I mean, th- they're not really about animals, but they are. But, you know, they're, they're stories about people.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Well, espe- the books especially.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Those books I mean, for a number of reasons. Not-- And I didn't love them because they were sympathetic to animals. I mean, A, it's very limited, but, you know, in the mindset I was in then, it was probably significant. I just, I, I just loved them.
  
  I loved the, the, the stories. So yeah, uh, I have a fond spot in my heart for those books, but the leaves me cold.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I w- I wanna... Yeah. Well, it's also inherently exploitative when
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Alright, we weren't supposed to even talk about that.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I know, but I just...
  
  Mariann Sullivan: about this octopus movie
  
  Jasmin Singer: I--
  
  Hang on, hang on. Can I just...
  
  I wa- Someone r- One of our listeners recently told me that they like my tangents. I have one, and this is for that listener. Well, it's not really for that listener, but...
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I, I, don't object to your tangents.
  
  Jasmin Singer: You sure do. You constantly object to them.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I g- I I try to rein them in a little bit
  
  Jasmin Singer: I see.
  
  Okay, well let me just say this one because you said books and I think you'll like this. Uh, first of all, happy Pride. It's Pride Month, which I completely forgot about until people wished me a happy Pride. And, uh, I, I noticed that just by coincidence, I started listening to this brand new book called "The Lesbian Bar Chronicles: The Living History and Hopeful Future of America's Dyke Dives and Sapphic Spaces" by Rachel Karp.
  
  And the thing I wanted to mention to you is that when she was talking about, uh, I think it was Cubbyhole in New York City, uh, the... It was either Cubbyhole or Henrietta's, but she was talking about how
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Henrietta Hudson.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah, the original, um, the or- w- the original owner was just re- wanted everyone to feel welcome there.
  
  And, and there was this little aside that said there were rats in the basement, and she refused to kill the rats, and the exterminator was like, "They're rats." And she said, "But they don't know that."
  
  Mariann Sullivan: That's, actually, that's really good.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I thought that was so funny.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: But also they don't know that they're worthless.
  
  They don't know that they're hated.
  
  They, they're just, like, living their lives.
  
  Jasmin Singer: And it was such a...
  
  Mariann Sullivan: It's actually profound, I think.
  
  Jasmin Singer: It was very beautiful, like
  
  Mariann Sullivan: It is a problem to have rats in your basement.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Of course.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Know, I'm not saying what one should do about it, but it is a legit problem.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I'm glad I don't have to deal with that problem.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Oh
  
  Jasmin Singer: Uh, but anyway. Okay, back to the, uh, let's, you know, circle back. Octopus, go for it
  
  Mariann Sullivan: It's a Netflix film. Neither of us have seen it. It says in Plant Based News, "This Netflix film about an octopus could make you rethink seafood," and it's called Remarkably Bright Creatures. I actually canceled my Netflix 'cause I was never using it, so I, I legit was unable to watch this.
  
  Jasmin Singer: We just said yesterday we're gonna cancel our Netflix.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Great
  
  Jasmin Singer: That's crazy. We, like yesterday said we should cancel it 'cause there was something we wanted to watch on Acorn, and we d- we Moore read some article that like young- younger, I don't know if it's Millennials or Gen Z, are, um, doing like, uh, streaming tourism or something.
  
  I can't remember if that's exactly what it's called. But basically you, you cancel one and then you start another and you get through everything in that and then you go, you know. And, and
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, that makes sense.
  
  Jasmin Singer: It does because we, like there's so many things that like we'll collect and we just don't watch.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: And you, like you, like I have Acorn and you, you signed up for Acorn and there's three shows that you love, and then the rest of them are like, "Eh."
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I wanted to watch the Acorn one because there was a show with Brooke Shields that looked kind of cute.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Uh-huh.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Uh, speaking of getting old, the... Like, it's sort of based around her getting older, which I'm like, you're Brooke Shields. You're badass.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: All right, so this Remarkably Bright Creatures follows Tova, an elderly woman who works as a cleaner at an aquarium. So I guess it's fiction.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I read it
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I didn't realize
  
  Jasmin Singer: I read it.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: And was it good?
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Mm-hmm. It was very good
  
  Mariann Sullivan: The movie is too, at least according... Oh, Sally Field. It's a good thing we do this podcast so I catch up on my reading.
  
  Jasmin Singer: In real time
  
  Mariann Sullivan: God.
  
  Oh my God. All right, there's ano- So apparently everybody thinks it's good and, and you, you liked the book.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I loved the book. Yeah. I
  
  Mariann Sullivan: And what's the other one? Oh, the other one is the one about the the one, I, which I really have to watch. Um, the, the guy who makes a f- in the UK, it's a documentary. He makes his, um, this film about his father, who worked a slaughterhouse. Uh, he's vegan.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I saw it. Sorry, I know...
  
  I saw this. Yeah, because, um, I, was, I
  
  Mariann Sullivan: We really do prepare this podcast.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I'm sorry, this is ridiculous.
  
  Um, but I saw it because I was, I, uh, talked to him a while ago when I, uh, with not through Our Hen House, but for another project I work on. And, uh, he was looking just for some ideas on promotion, which I will say I gave him none 'cause he knew everything.
  
  Like, he was very, very good. Um, but as a result of that conversation, I was able to preview it, and it was, it was excellent. I mean, I definitely recommend watching it. I'm glad that you're bringing it up. A few people have sent it to me as well. Um, and it is funny because it made me think... Just I only know this because I'm, I've been around the block a few times here, but it did make me think of two other films.
  
  It's nothing like them except for the fact that they're both about, uh, the protagonist's families. One is Seeing Through The Fence or Seeing Through Fences by Eleni Vla- Eleni Vlachos.
  
  It was very...
  
  Mariann Sullivan: yeah
  
  Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm. And, uh, Seeing Through The Fence. That's it. And, and it was... She was, she was Greek, and it was just about the relationship between her and her father, who had a very different view of, of, of meat and animals.
  
  Now, he wasn't a slaughterhouse worker like, you know, like this guy's.
  
  It made me think of Brian Kateman's movie, Meat Me Halfway, M-E-A-T. And it, you know, that was also about his relationship with, with his father, you know, who was like an optometrist at the mall. It wasn't like a slaughterhouse worker.
  
  But it was these conversations with their parents, and I just think that's so cool. This, this new one is particularly interesting, of course, because it's about his father who's a slaughterhouse worker.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, and it, it says that it involves an examination which we should know, should-- this is something we really should be learning about more and more, of participation-induced traumatic stress, PITS, it's, it's related to post-traumatic stress disorder, but it's when your trauma is caused by or causing violence. You know, obviously combat veterans, police officers can be very prone to this. And, and it's in, obviously, why wouldn't it be in slaughterhouse workers, as well as other people who, uh, who end up doing bad things to animals, um, in, uh, in their work?
  
  Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I mean, Justify, Maddie Krasnow's organization, very much deals with, with, with this issue, specifically in the lab context of, of people who, who are led into doing things that are deeply, deeply troubling.
  
  Anyway, it sounds very interesting. I do intend to actually watch it, but I didn't wanna hold off talking about it until I had watched it 'cause I wanted to... If there are people out there who haven't heard of it yet, I wanted to let them know.
  
  Jasmin Singer: We will link to all of this in the show notes per usual. You should definitely keep a tab with our show notes in it because, uh, it's just a lot of great resources.
  
  All right, let's move on to talk ab- this next subject is one that really, really gets me riled up, like so much. You, you take it from here.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: All right, this is about... The, the article isn't about anything controversial. It's just something, the way the article was written and something it said. It's an article in The Guardian, and, you know, I'm very glad they did this. It was, it was, um, a review of veggie burgers, and this is in the UK, so if you're in the US we're not gonna, like, be talking about burgers that you could actually buy for the most part.
  
  But, uh, all right, the name of the article is Smoky, Rich and Umami-Filled: The best supermarket veggie burgers tasted and rated. Our resident food product tester gives supermarket veggie burgers a good grilling to find out which made him flip and which couldn't take the heat. So this is great that they're doing this article. Uh, you know, all credit to them.
  
  But then he starts off by saying, um, uh, that he finds it hard to trust processed examples because they're made with a blend of dozens of ingredients and synthetic additives designed to deceive the palate rather than offer genuine flavor. Like, maybe you should taste it and see if it's deceiving you, 'cause if it's deceiving you maybe it's, it's good enough. Um, as a result, he's marked down patties based on their processing levels and synthetic additives. "Though I do understand their value and purpose." Well, no, you don't, because otherwise you wouldn't be marking them down. Like, it's...
  
  Do they do this with any other kind of food?
  
  Jasmin Singer: That's the thing that gets to me. It
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Like when they rate potato chips, do they talk about how bad they are for you?
  
  Like, uh... or more, notably, when they rate animal products, do they, uh, mention the saturated fat? Like, uh, it's crazy. Like, this is supposed to be a taste thing, and then he's saying that he, he doesn't wanna, um... he wants to include, like, all of the ingredients because they might deceive your, your taste.
  
  Well, if they're deceiving your taste and they're authentically deceiving your taste then that's... It's not a taste issue. It's something else.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: The, it... All right, you were the one who was so mad about this.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I'm so mad about it because it, it really bugs me, and I've recently spent time with people who think this way when there are people who are just like, "Ugh, the things they put in our food these days." And, and they are just really trying, purportedly trying to eat cleaner, whatever the hell that means, but like aren't at all even remotely vegan.
  
  And it, it like-- it seriously makes me-- like makes my, my head explode. But I guess, I mean, the thing is like I had another thought this week, or a reminder I should say, about how if you're not vegan for the animals, if that's not your anchor, it's just not gonna stick. And, and the-- I don't know too much about this.
  
  I know that the internet is, uh, abuzz with the fact that like vegan influencer and author Gaz Oakley, who has millions of followers, stopped being vegan, and he was like a big vegan dude, and now he's like a non-vegan dude. And he had the absolute stupidest thing that he said about why. I mean, just so idiotic.
  
  And, um, and the reason I'm bringing that up is because I was chatting with someone about it, and I was like, "Well, he wasn't vegan for the animals." It wasn't like-- It, it was, it was like not exactly for his health, but it was just sort of like, you know, wanting to feel grounded and w- all of... It was like woo woo or whatever.
  
  Like if you're vegan because you don't feel comfortable with the way animals are treated, then it's going to stick. And the-- I'm just bringing that up in light of this conversation about the burgers being, uh, rated and ranked and, and the, the story I just told about the person who wants to eat clean. I want to eat clean.
  
  Because, you know, like is it a silver lining that she wouldn't be vegan anyway? No. It's not a silver lining ever that someone wouldn't be vegan anyway, but it is just a good reminder that this is all stupid.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah. What's the-- Where, where are we? I've lost, I've lost, I've lost my mind. I mean my place. I mean my mind. I mean my place.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Right. I have one more article I really wanna talk about, and we're running out of time, I know, so let's get to it. Um, it's, it's an article from Faunalytics. I love Faunalytics.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I do too.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Reducing prejudice can lead to dietary changes, and this is about this study. All right, it's a small study, did not have remarkably, remarkably, like, compelling results, but I found it so fascinating.
  
  So this study, um, they, they, uh, they were trying to, like, figure out what interventions, um, aiming to reduce the use of animals, attempt to change individual behaviors. And, And, so they, they tried a, a few different interventions and um, one is they, they wanted to, to, to, to measure asking people to take the perspective of an animal or being a ma- being made aware of their own bias or being made aware of the consequences of their own bias.
  
  And they, they showed people footage, uh, you know, bad footage. And one one group, they, they just showed the footage. The one, one group, they, they watched the same footage but were also asked to take the perspective of the animals. And then the third group, they, um, they were asked to take the perspective of the animals, and they were-- they took a bias test, and the bias test automatically told them they were biased, which doesn't seem entirely fair, but it's probably true.
  
  And the results were that the only thing that had a difference, and it didn't have a huge difference, but a statistically significant difference, was asking people to take the perspective of the animals. I just think this is so fascinating. Like, I think that for many of us, we don't have to be asked to do that. Like, for some reason or another, like, we just did it for, you know, at some point, and, and it changed us. But maybe pe- they were simply asked, just, like, they-- otherwise, they wouldn't have done it, like, just watching the footage.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah, that's so weird. I mean, like m- I, I've mentioned this before, but my best friend Erica once told me that she thinks there are two types of people in the world: the type of person who's driving down the road and see some- sees something on the road far away and thinks it's a plastic bag, and someone who's driving down the road and sees something far away and thinks it's an animal.
  
  And, um, I think it sort of boils down to that. But like, speaking of Erica, when I recently saw her in Woodstock, uh, she-- We, we had-- I had Murray, you know, my, my dog with, with us, and there was-- It was hot out, and she, like, literally, I think 100% of the time, she was like, in her head, the f- the first thing she was thinking of was, "Does Murray need water?"
  
  Like, like liter- like there was n- no conversation that could be had without, "But does Murray need water?" And it's like, obviously I was giving him water and had a bowl, but it was so appreciated, and it was such an indication of how people who see the animal on the road think. Like, that's what you're thinking of first, and, and, and that's where your brain goes.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I mean, I think that's a very compelling story, but I do think that there are a couple of things that this story, this, this research highlights which is really interesting, it's not necessarily two kinds of people. There might be interventions that get people to see the animal and get people to think, "Is that an animal that's suffering?" And what it made me think of, and this, alright, this is the part that I totally made up in my own head. Um, I like to give warnings about that. But seems like it would be a useful evolutionary development for humans to not care about animals. You know, once we, like, stopped being herbivores in our former ape existence, we had to kill animals, it probably was useful to develop an indifference.
  
  It's really useful to be indifferent to animals, but that doesn't mean it's, it's inevitable. And I think that the other story you're telling about Murray is really telling because I think a lot of people make this leap with companion animals. I mean, I think a lot more people would, would, uh, worry about whether the dog was thirsty than worry about whether a pig was thirsty.
  
  Unless they're told, "Do you think the pig is thirsty?"
  
  Like, like, this, the, the great thing about this study is that it indicates that there's something that we can do or there's something that can be done to get people to go there. They ju- all these people were was, they were just asked to take the view, point of view of the animal. Until they were told that, it hadn't occurred to them to take the point of view of the animal.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: They did follow up too uh, about whether... I mean, it wa- it's not a huge study. You know, money for these kinds of studies are probably really hard to get. But so they did do follow-up with whether they ate less meat in, or animal products in the following, um, week. I think it was week. And they did.
  
  Jasmin Singer: That's great.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: We just have to, like, suggest to people that they take the point of view of the animal. And we're assuming that they would do that. I mean, w- and when I think of it as an evolutionary development, like to ignore what animals are feeling because that's really useful, like we're the ones who are not very evolutionarily developed because we're worrying about the animals all the time. Uh,
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: They're actually more, um, more developed than we are. We have to like drag them back into, "Oh, no, animals. Oh, yeah, they're real."
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah. I th-- Well, that gives me hope. No, that gives me a lot of hope. Thank you. I, I really appreciate that, and also your insights on it.
  
  That's really good news, but you have even more good news
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Uh, yeah. Well, you know, these, the animals seem to be coming out of Ridglan now that the, the big tranche of 1,500 animals came out in, in bits and pieces. But I, I did see on Instagram that another 135 beagles are getting out, um, this week, which is, which is great news. This is from Center for a Humane Economy, which is, of course, you know... there are two main groups, like the Simple Heart Initiative or whoever is running the, um, the, the open rescue, which is not entirely clear to me. Um, DXE, I don't know whether it's DXE or Simple... what... anyway, it's so interesting that, a- and, and the Center for a Humane Economy, which is, you know, um, Wayne Pacelle's, uh, organization, very mainstream, very DC. And it's interesting, like you... I can't help but wonder, like, are they in competition with each other for credit, or is this, and this Aidan Kankyoku has written about, not this particular situation, but the importance of this kind of thing in accomplishing anything. Is this an inside game, outside game strategy that you have to have, like, the insiders who are, you know, kind of very mainstream, you can talk to, and they, then you have to have the outsiders who are the people getting dressed up in, in, uh, in white suits and trying to break into the, into the facility.
  
  And both of, like, they, they are very, very useful to each other. I don't know whether that's what's going on. I have no inside information. I have no idea what's going on he- here, but, but another 135 dogs are getting out of Ridglan this week, and that's good news.
  
  Jasmin Singer: You're making me think of the song Another Hundred People from Company, um, which is" another hundred people just got off of the train and came up through the ground while another hundred people..." And I'm just thinking "another hundred dogs just got out of the cages." All right. That's bad. Let's, let's keep our day jobs.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I mean, we have-- our key function at this moment, whenever we talk about it, is to just figure out how to use this unbelievable energy and a-attention for all animals. Like, like we cannot miss this opportunity. Um, it cannot be just beagles. It cannot be just dogs.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Absolutely. Amen. That's the first time I've said amen on Our Hen House.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I doubt that.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Thank you, for those of you listening and for those of you watching and for those of you who are new and for those of you who've been with us for years and, uh, we just really appreciate you. We have a badass interview coming out tomorrow on the Our Hen House full-length interview.
  
  It's with Dr. Liz Tyson of Born Free USA, and I loved this interview, so I, I hope that you have a chance to catch that, and we will catch you next time.
  
  ⇧ Close Transcript

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