The Hen Report: “When Is This Gonna Change?” | Animal Rights Wins, Farm Bill & Carriage Horses

This is a week packed with animal rights wins and sobering setbacks. Jasmin & Mariann open with a review of The Sheep Detectives, a fun animated film with some meaningful (if imperfect) animal messaging, then dive into a string of legislative victories: Portland’s foie gras sales ban, New York State’s octopus farming ban headed to the governor, and promising momentum around the Save Our Bacon Act, which would protect state-level farmed animal welfare laws from federal override. They also report on a damning follow-up undercover investigation at Cooke Aquaculture in Maine—exposing broken promises by the company’s CEO—alongside disturbing revelations about the University of Wisconsin’s purchase of Ridglan beagles for research, and yet another carriage horse collapse in New York City, prompting renewed calls for Rider’s Law.

• Legislative wins for animals: Portland bans foie gras sales, New York State passes an octopus farming ban, and the Save Our Bacon Act—protecting Prop 12-style state laws banning gestation crates—shows strong momentum in the Farm Bill fight.
• Corporate accountability in animal agriculture: A follow-up undercover investigation at Cooke Aquaculture reveals ongoing fish cruelty despite a public apology, underscoring why animal agriculture companies cannot be trusted to self-regulate.
• University of Wisconsin & the Ridglan beagles: Records reveal UW-Madison purchased beagles from the recently exposed Ridglan Farms for invasive research, and the university is now under fire for investigating the student animal advocacy club that publicized the rescue.
• NYC carriage horses & Rider’s Law: Another horse collapses and dies on New York City streets, reigniting calls to pass Rider’s Law, legislation that would retire carriage horses and transition the industry away from animal use.
• Know your rights as an animal activist: A highlight from the Grassroots Animal Rights Summit—a YouTube talk by lawyers Chris Carraway and Darius Fulmer—offers practical guidance on protest rights and legal protections for activists.

RESOURCES

• • • • • Portland City Council Narrowly Passes Foie Gras Ban
        • Octopus Farming Ban Passes New York Assembly
        • Michael Storer’s Wikipedia
        • Warning for Senate Republicans: MAHA voters oppose Save Our Bacon Act
        • Meat companies keep promising to do better. They almost never do.
        • School Investigates Student Organization Connected to Ridglan Farms Beagle Rescue
        • Records show Ridglan beagles at UW-Madison were injected with blue dye, then euthanized and dissected
        • UW-Madison details anesthesia study involving dogs sourced from Ridglan Farms
        • Another Carriage Horse Collapses and Dies in New York City
        • House Committee Includes Horse Slaughter Ban in Transportation Bill
        • Know Your Rights w/ Chris Carraway and Darius Fullmer /// Grassroots Animal Rights Summit 2026
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    INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

    Jasmin Singer: Welcome to The Hen Report. This is Jasmin Singer.

    Mariann Sullivan: This is Mariann Sullivan.

    Jasmin Singer: This is Murray. Hopefully you know that by now.

    Mariann Sullivan: He's the cute one.

    Show More Transcript

    Jasmin Singer: He's noisy.

    Mariann Sullivan: Not that you're not cute, but let's face it, the competition is stiff.

    Jasmin Singer: And Vicki keeps telling me that my mic is picking up absolutely everything, so I'm a little concerned that it's picking up his grunting.

    Mariann Sullivan: I can't hear him.

    Jasmin Singer: Well, he's grunting. Or grumbling, grunting.

    Mariann Sullivan: I'm sure people will be willing to put up with his grunting.

    Jasmin Singer: So just a quick reminder about the Our Hen House podcasts. Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays, and the Long Form Interview on Fridays. Bonus for flock members comes out on Mondays. We are on YouTube, we're on all of the podcatchers, so hit subscribe, hit like, and comment wherever you listen.

    So we finally got to see "The Sheep Detectives," and I know we wanted to briefly chat about it. It's a really good movie.

    Mariann Sullivan: It's really good.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah. It's, it, you know, it's just to kind of briefly--

    Mariann Sullivan: movie.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, to briefly summarize, it's, it's, uh, it's just about this, this herd of sheep who have their, their person who, uh, suddenly winds up dead, and they're trying to figure out why.

    And, and along the lines-- uh, along the way, there's a lot about, like, one sheep happens to know that the rest of the sheep get killed for their meat, but he doesn't wanna tell them, and they have very short memories that they're able to reset.

    Mariann Sullivan: Don't you wish? Well, maybe it would be a bad idea. It w- it was a bad idea for them, but, you know, it made their lives a lot better.

    Jasmin Singer: To not know?

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, they just said, "One, two, three," and they forgot everything.

    Jasmin Singer: Uh, there're definitely things that I would like to not know, that I would like to forget.

    Mariann Sullivan: I don't know whether people think that's true of sheep. They probably do, when actually s- sheep have, um, remarkable memories, but, uh, I digress.

    Jasmin Singer: Right. The, I mean, the one fatal flaw, so to speak, uh, from an animal rights perspective is that, like, wool production was sort of glamorized in it and it was presented as totally unrelated to meat production, which of course is not true.

    Mariann Sullivan: Right. I mean, it is true, and you know, I don't want to be too cynical because it's Hollywood and they gotta do what they gotta do, and uh, they live in the real world and need to sell movies in the real world. Uh, and it, you know, the good guys were vegetarian, and the bad guys were, like, butchers.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, they were butchers, right.

    Mariann Sullivan: There was, you know, there was a lot of good stuff in there. It was not a complete picture.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

    Mariann Sullivan: And, and also I, you know, I just always wonder, maybe I'm too cynical on this front, I wonder what these movies that present, you know, animals who understand English and who talk amongst themselves, like all these things that animals actually don't do, I always wonder whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah. I, you know, there was, I, I noticed there was like a family in front of us in the movie theater. There was a kid there, and there was some mention really briefly in the movie of like, um, you know, so- something along the lines of, "It's not like, it, it's not like they would eat us," or s- you know, something like that.

    That wasn't the words. And the family in front of us went you know, like they laughed, and I was like, "Uh, interesting. Okay."

    Mariann Sullivan: That's not funny.

    It's the, It's the vegan retort to that.

    Did you, did you h- you know, knock on their shoulder and say, "That's not funny!" ?

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, that's what I did.

    Mariann Sullivan: That's a good vegan.

    Jasmin Singer: That then they went vegan. Um, and they were like, "You smuggled seltzer into here. I'm gonna go tell." But anyway, uh,

    Mariann Sullivan: Don't say that out loud.

    Jasmin Singer: Moore was so worried that we would get caught

    Mariann Sullivan: No, I, I am with her. I, I don't like to take chances of being embarrassed.

    Jasmin Singer: Um

    Mariann Sullivan: Of course, everybody who works there is 12. I really don't think they were gonna challenge us.

    Jasmin Singer: But, but okay, going back to what you said, like, you know, there's movies like Wallace & Gromit, there's movies that are so unbelievably animal rightsy that you don't even have to like squint your eyes to find the animal rights messaging in it. And like w- we, meaning animal rights people, are a- always like, "Yay, it's in the mainstream. That'll do it."

    And then like life goes on and people continue.

    Mariann Sullivan: It's probably a good thing

    Jasmin Singer: And so

    Mariann Sullivan: It's not the ultimate fix. And Wallace and Gromit, they eat cheese all the time.

    Jasmin Singer: Everything is flawed, for sure. But th- you know, Chicken Run, they were trying to escape.

    Mariann Sullivan: Chicken Run.

    Jasmin Singer: were trying to...

    Mariann Sullivan: was a real animal rights movie.

    Jasmin Singer: Uh, so, so my, my point is I-- this is based on nothing but what I think. This is not based on any research that probably Faunalytics has deep dived into. But I tend to think children might connect the dots more with movies like Sheep Detectives than adults would.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Well, they're usually, quote-unquote, for children, but we certainly enjoyed it.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah. No, it was... It's a, I do recommend it. It,

    Mariann Sullivan: I mean, it's a good movie. It's just fun.

    Jasmin Singer: The fact that I didn't fall asleep says a lot.

    Mariann Sullivan: It was a miracle, especially since we were in the theater with, you know, those lounge chairs, which I guess almost all the theaters have now.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah

    Mariann Sullivan: Geez, it's, it's just so

    Jasmin Singer: You might as well come and sing me a lullaby and like... But

    Mariann Sullivan: And yeah, you fall asleep even in old-fashioned movie seat

    Jasmin Singer: All the time. I fall asleep in like raucous Broadway musicals. If I'm sitting down and the lights get turned off , I'm out.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

    Jasmin Singer: Alright.

    Mariann Sullivan: Fun.

    Jasmin Singer: There was, there's a lot of, uh, news this week, so why don't we get to it?

    Mariann Sullivan: We actually mentioned a couple of these things on the interview, which we already recorded, but which is coming out on Friday. But we're gonna mention them again because they're such a big deal. We had two major victories. Well, one is almost a victory, and the other one I think is, is a real victory.

    The, the foie gras sales ban, um, sponsored by Pro Animal Oregon, for Portland, Oregon, passed by a narrow margin, and they have restaurants there that sell foie gras, and now they have banned it. Excellent, excellent, excellent. You know, we tend to be a little cynical about foie gras bans. Like, is this really the best we can do? But when they happen, I sure am happy, 'cause, you know, it means somebody stood up for animals in some way whatsoever.

    And the octopus farming ban in New York State, and you're thinking, New York State has oceanfront? And of course it does. Long Island is a total oceanfront, um, part of New York State. And, uh, the octopus farming ban passed by a wide margin, both the Assembly and the Senate, and now is going to the governor.

    Who knows what the governor will do? She seems very unpredictable to me. And who- you know, gotta follow the money here. But I don't think there is any money, or not everybody would've voted for it. So excellent, excellent work, and shout-out to, um, oh, Voters for Animal Rights, which I think has really been... I mean, there are a lot of, uh, as always, there are a lot of, um, organizations that were involved, so I shouldn't say just them, but they've really been carrying the torch on this, so yay.

    Jasmin Singer: I mean, it's just ironic because I think that I've been, um, using it as an example of things that never move forward, and then it did. So

    Mariann Sullivan: You have to come up with a new depressing example.

    Jasmin Singer: Right. Yeah. Um, okay. What-- W- that's good news. There's more good news.

    Mariann Sullivan: Um, well, yeah, I mean, I wasn't sure whether to mention this because he came in seventh, but apparently in Italy to come in seventh in a really big bicycle race is a very big deal. What do I know? His name is Michael Storer, and the reason I'm talking about him, he's vegan. So yay, go Michael.

    He's a professional, uh, bicycle racer.

    I mean, these people are very serious about bike- bicycle... And the, the, the race took three weeks to complete. They are really into bicycle racing in Italy. I have relatives, I have relatives, even though I'm not Italian, I have relatives by marriage in Italy, and believe me, they are into bicycle racing. All right, this is a little weird one, but I just thought I would add it because the industry is always talking, is always, has always been pushed, like, to, to use some anesthesia when they do horrible things to animals.

    It's not much, it's a little, but they won't do it. Well, they, they're doing it in Peru. So there. Like, anytime anybody, anytime the in- industry says they can't use anesthesia for teeth clipping, nail docking, and castration. Like, uh, really? You can't even give them a little painkiller? Well, they're gonna have to in Per- well, it's not actually a done deal.

    It's almost a done deal. Um, but it still has to be approved, and God knows, follow the money. Um, so we'll see whether it is, but, but for the moment, yeah, they have to use a little painkiller. What the hell?

    Welfare reforms. It's a constant debate. Does this actually do anything? Does it actually raise the price a little bit? Does it just relieve the pain a little bit and not really take steps forward? I don't know. I don't know. But we do what we do, and different people do different things, and that's a good thing, I think.

    All right, the farm bill, a little update. The Save Our Bacon Act. Everybody's been calling, I'm sure. Keep calling, but it's looking good. That's all I'll say. That's what I've been told. I don't really know more than that, that's why, that's all I'll say. But, um, apparently they have been inundated with phone calls, so please keep adding yours. And, uh, that in itself, you know, it does have an impact on them. And then there was this fascinating article.

    Oh, this is something we have to remember all the time. I know I talk about it all the time, so, uh, sorry, but, um, this is an article from the Washington Examiner, which is a pretty right-wing, uh, newspaper. warning for Senate Republicans, MAHA voters oppose Save Our Bacon Act. This is just so important for us to all to remember that we are in the era of strange bedfellows, and a lot of people... I mean, unless you are, you know, a Trump supporter, which you're probably not since you're listening to this, but you never know. Welcome.

    And, and, uh, a lot of Trump supporters, especially in the MAHA area, uh, you know, agree with a lot of the st- some of the stuff, some of the stuff that we agree with. And certainly, this is talking specifically about Anna Paulina Luna, who's a Republican of Florida, and she was one of the leaders in trying to keep the Save Our Bacon Act, which of course is the, is the legis- I, I don't think I even explained what it is.

    Um, it's the legislation that they're trying to pass to get rid of all of the reforms that have been passed for a- for farmed animals, um, on, on a state basis, particularly attacking, um, California's Prop 12, but, but would attack, uh, much more than that. But, you know, it's basically getting rid of, um, particularly for, it's, it's about the pig industry's interest in getting rid of, um, bans on gestation crates.

    All right. I hope that was complete. All right, so this representative, Anna Paulina Luna, a Republican, was the leader in, in trying to keep this out of The Farm Bill. She didn't succeed. It's in there now, but apparently they've gotten 10 billion, billion, billion calls and, uh, it look, it's looking good.

    Jasmin Singer: That's great. That's so great.

    Mariann Sullivan: It's great that we would have that victory. It's great that we would have a victory, like, that they would have to listen to us, 'cause that doesn't happen that often. You know, that they get realize, "Oh, oh, I see. People care about this."

    So keep calling your senators and it, you know, let's, maybe we'll have a victory here. Like, seems to be the week of victories. All right, our next article, I take personally because we did, um, a, uh, an undercover investigation about what Kenny Torella is talking about here in this article in Vox. The name of the article is Meat Companies Keep Promising to Do Better, They Almost Never Do: A New Undercover Investigation Reveals Why You Can't Take Meat Companies at Their Word.

    Interestingly, this is about a fish company, not a meat company, but, you know, same difference, and it has to do with, um, an undercover investigation at Cooke Agriculture. We did both an interview with the, the undercover investigator, Aaron Wang, back in the day, and I did an Animal Law podcast interview with the folks from, um, uh Animal Outlook. And, and they, you know, they sent in the undercover investigator. Like, you know, it was hell. She had to witness all of this horrible cruelty. She had to work hard. They, they released the undercover investigator. Everybody's like, "Oh," horrified, "This is terrible." I won't say what they found, but it was really bad. Really bad. Just horrible, horrible, uh, terrible stuff done to these fish.

    All right. So, uh, Animal Outlook released the video. The Cooke Aquaculture CEO, Glenn Cooke, apologized, agreed this was terrible. "It's a family company." Oh yeah, Glenn has a family. They all have fucking families. Like, they think that makes them good. "We place animal welfare high in our operating standards and endeavor to raise our animals with optimal care and consideration of best practice. I am very sorry that this happened." Well, Glenn Cooke was apparently full of shit. What a surprise. Um, and, and there, they did a follow-up investigation in Maine.

    It, this took place in Maine, and the, the Department of Agriculture had investigated, but they didn't file any charges because they promised to do better in the future. Uh, they didn't, um, so they did this undercover... follow-up undercover investigation, and they found that, you know, it's just as bad as it always was.

    And, and, and great article, highly recommend it. It... And, you know, it explains why we can't take animal agriculture companies at their word. This happens all the time. And, but, you know, when we do an undercover, when, when people, undercover investigators go in again and find things out, of course it was a new undercover investigator, um, it, it, that's not always the case.

    When they do, they find that, you know, all too often there haven't been any changes. It's all just window dressing. Nobody's making them make changes. They don't care. Like, it's just, just all lies. I know you're not surprising, but it is infuriating. I just want to mention, I, I, I won't go into what was going on with these fish, 'cause it's disgusting, and it's just, you know, you don't need to hear that, I guess.

    Um, but I'm gonna talk about what, what, uh, a manager, who worked at the hatchery in 2019 when Erin Wing went in, was still employed there in 2025 and said this to the new undercover investigator, who he didn't know was an undercover investigator: "I hunted her down and found her on Instagram. I was gonna send like a horse tongue or something to her in the mail. I was gonna send her like a deer tongue or something, or like brains, 'cause she's like an animal activist bitch."

    Jasmin Singer: Wow.

    Mariann Sullivan: Nice. So she is apparently taking precautions to protect herself and her family. I... Makes me so mad. Makes me so mad.

    I'll just read the way Kenny, um, concluded. "Meat, dairy, and egg companies reveal who they are when they think no one's watching, and we should listen. Everything else, the statements, the apologies, the promises to reform is just noise."

    Well, ain't that the truth?

    Jasmin Singer: That's gross So, uh, do we have, we have an update on the, on, on dogs, which is m- did, did you see Murray just perked up when I said an update on dogs?

    Mariann Sullivan: He doesn't like to listen to things, bad things happening to dogs.

    Jasmin Singer: Oh my God. Uh, so it, it seems...

    Mariann Sullivan: Put your hands over his, his ears

    Jasmin Singer: W- you are coming through my earphone.

    Mariann Sullivan: All right, this is about Ridglan. This is outrageous. This is outrageous. This is about, actually about the University of Wisconsin. I don't know whether you've heard this story, but the University of Wisconsin found out that some of their students who belong to the animal rights club, I forget what it's exactly called, like put out a flyer and encouraged people to go to, um, to, uh, Ridglan. The Ridglan, the recent Rid- Ridglan rescue. And, um, they investigated the club, and, um, s- there were allegations that it had violated the code of conduct because this promoted illegal conduct. And the, um, the group, called Animal Advocacy, listed ways to contact organizers and politicians and directed readers to animal rights activist Wayne Hsiung's blog post.

    And in that post, Wayne's post said that they would both be protesting and entering Ridglan Farms and removing dogs from the property. And so they put this flyer out, and now the, um, the university is investigating the club. They, they're trying to make clear that they're not bringing criminal charges, like, uh, yeah. And, uh, and the, the president, Jackson Ray, of the club, um, said, "This is a blatant violation of our First Amendment rights." No shit. Um, they have to go before the Office of Student Conduct and Community Standards. I g- I, I understand that lawyers from the University of Denver's, um, Animal Law Clinic are going to be representing them there, which is great. Uh, and so it... All right, you think that's the bad story. So that's the, that's the least of it. So then it turns out, it comes out, that the University of Wisconsin is in business, I mean, buys beagles, has bought beagles from Ridglan. I mean, obviously calls were made here.

    Records show Ridglan beagles at UW-Madison were injected with blue dye, then euthanized and dissected. Uh, that's one of the reports in, in the local press. Um, the records, quote, "may be distressing." No shit. I'm pretty distressed. let's see. I think I have another article.

    Oh, this is from a local news channel. "UW Madison details anesthesia study involving dogs sourced from Reach- Ridgland Farms." So all this information starts coming out.

    You know, these people had better get used to it. We are better than they think we are. We are smarter, we have more resources, and we're not the animal rights movement of old. We have resources, and they're gonna get found out, and they... I think this is just unbelievably embarrassing.

    All right, just one more. Um, I, I know these updates are a little

    Jasmin Singer: This is a depressing one. I actually didn't send this

    Mariann Sullivan: carriage horse has dropped dead in New York

    Jasmin Singer: Okay, I have something to say

    Mariann Sullivan: Alright, say it

    Jasmin Singer: It seems that the carriage horse industry and the carriage horses who are dropping dead is a cyclical issue that never changes.

    I'm saying that in case-- I'm saying that because that's what I said about foie gras. But it is true. Like when the f- when is this gonna change? When is this gonna change?

    Mariann Sullivan: I see. Yeah, no, it, it, I, like, this has been an issue, you know, 'cause I lived in New York City for as long... there was, like, on the table an issue that people were talking about when I first got involved in the mid-'90s, and it had been an issue for years before that with activists working on it, to get these poor horses out of th- uh, out of the city, and they're still in the city, and collapsing and dying on the street.

    Well, that's a lovely tourist attraction.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

    Mariann Sullivan: Unbelievable. So Voters for Animal Rights, which, as I mentioned before, is outstanding, and they're located in New York City, is on it. On Thursday, the city council will reintroduce Rider's Law, which is the legislation that would transition New York City away from horse and carriages and retire the horses. And it's a, it's just about time. This is... Oh, God, this poor little thing

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah. It's, it... I can't even

    Mariann Sullivan: Worked to death. We work horses to death in this country.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah. It's just... I, I just don't even understand how it is still glamorized and people still think it's okay. But they do. It's in a part of their brain where this is okay, and so... And a p- and then something-- You know, like I, I was just complaining to you this morning because I noticed that someone who I was in that play with recently posted something about whale meat and how completely upset she was that whale meat existed, and click here to sign, sign a petition or something.

    And, you know, yeah, it's awful, but like why, why is that where the line is drawn? Uh, y-

    Mariann Sullivan: Because it's, it's an animal that we don't eat in a country that we don't live in.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah

    Mariann Sullivan: That's the big difference. And you know, they're whales, admittedly, they're particularly beloved, but why d- why aren't cows particularly beloved? They're completely lovely animals.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah. It, it, I know that like I, in fact I almost, I wasn't planning on mentioning it because it's so obvious. I just said to you it's like stupid people just being stupid in a normal stupid way that stupid people are.

    Mariann Sullivan: You know, we shouldn't like... I mean, there should be a way to, to appreciate that somebody cares something about some animal without just hating them because they don't care about all the other ones. I mean, that's always a challenge. But, you know, we wanna leave that door open.

    Jasmin Singer: Of course, it's a good advocacy moment for anyone when they see someone who doesn't get it about farmed animals start to connect the dots about other animals who are farmed that they didn't realize, like whales. It's a good moment for us.

    Mariann Sullivan: Many of us started with one particular animal.

    Jasmin Singer: You know, I didn't. I, I, I-- my way into veganism and animal rights was more kind of, of an overarching justice issue. I didn't specifically connect with a particular animal. I was just more like, I care about justice. It just seems like a natural extension to extend that idea of justice to what I'm eating and what I'm not.

    But

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. I, I mean, I, I certainly there are many different ways in, and I think that's a really important one. But, you know, I think, uh, my first, first, my first interest in what's going on with animals was about dogs.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah. I do love that. Murray thinks that everyone should care about, about dogs.

    Mariann Sullivan: Well, specifically poodle. Actually, specifically Murray.

    Jasmin Singer: Murray wants us to change the name of Our Hen House to Our Dog House.

    Mariann Sullivan: Alright. Our Murray House?

    Jasmin Singer: Do we have an-- Do we have anything else?

    Mariann Sullivan: We'll just talk about Murray every week.

    Jasmin Singer: That's perfect.

    Mariann Sullivan: Our ratings will skyrocket.

    Jasmin Singer: That's the key to success.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah

    Jasmin Singer: Mm. Um, do we have anything else?

    Mariann Sullivan: Um, let's see. I have a couple of updates for people who are interested. Th- uh, this stuff going on with horse slaughter, shockingly enough. Um, the House in Transportation and Infrastructure Committee has officially advanced legislation, uh, that would prohibit the transport of equines, uh, destined for slaughter. So I'm not sure this is exactly the same as the SAVE Act, which has been, uh, you know, the, the, the animal-related SAVE Act, not the voter-related SAVE Act. That's I, I'm just really not sure, so I shouldn't talk through my hat. But this seems like progress and, you know, d- it's definitely bipartisan. Bipartisan. It w- we're the only bipartisan issue left. It's really extraordinary. So yeah, I, I mean, another thing to, to get on, um, there's a lot of organ- th- I happened to see a, um, alert from an organization called Wild Beauty Spirit, but there's also the ASPCA, AWI online, and all these other, uh, these other, uh, organizations who are working on this. So that's really interesting.

    Definitely the legislative season, and there just seems to be more animal stuff going on than there have been in, in years past.

    Jasmin Singer: I agree. It's something that seems to be slightly shifting. It's-- even if it's not shifting as much as we want it to be, uh, there are more conversations happening on higher levels when it comes to animal policy and animal cruelty than I've noticed in recent years.

    Mariann Sullivan: I think you're right.

    Well, another, another, um, another thing I thought I'd tell people about, this is on, uh, this was a, a talk and it's on YouTube now, and I just thought s- it was a talk that was given at the Grassroots Animal Rights Summit, and I think all of the talks were on, um, are on YouTube now if you're interested.

    I... This one particularly stood out to me. It's Chris Caraway and Darius Fulmer, um, on a Know Your Rights, uh, panel. And, um, you know, as people, as, as the movement is progressing into, uh, activities that they may argue are illegal, uh, and that people might take risks, not that you ever have to take risks, but, you know, it's good to know just in case, uh, things get, get dicey, uh, to have experienced lawyers explaining, um, you know, how important it is to know your rights i- in protesting and activism and, you know, giving you some tips on how to, uh, how to protect those rights.

    Uh, so I thought people might be interested in that, so I thought I'd highlight it.

    Jasmin Singer: I think it's important to brush up on that kind of, that kind of thing from time to time. Uh, I was telling someone something about protest rights recently, and I realized that it's been a really long time since I actually checked in with what,

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.

    Jasmin Singer: what the right way forward is.

    Mariann Sullivan: Me too. You know, just because you're a lawyer doesn't mean you automatically know all this stuff.

    Jasmin Singer: Remember that time my gra- my, remember when my grandma asked you, she was like, "You're a lawyer. Is my car parked legally?"

    Mariann Sullivan: It is not that unusual for people to think that you know every law.

    Jasmin Singer: If someone has like a PhD in like creative... No, in, I was gonna say a PhD in creative writing, that makes no sense. But if someone has like, um, you know, a PhD in, in philosophy, someone would be like, "You're a doctor. Can you look at this rash on my boob?" It's kind of the same thing.

    Mariann Sullivan: Would be odd. But I would expect a PhD in philosophy to know all the philosophers, so maybe I'm just as bad.

    Jasmin Singer: I would hope so. I would hope they would. Certainly Peter Singer and Tom Regan.

    Mariann Sullivan: I think that's all I've got for this week unless you want to, um, add some other, um, some other

    Jasmin Singer: Uh, well

    Mariann Sullivan: I think that people should definitely watch the interview this week.

    Jasmin Singer: Oh, it was, it

    Mariann Sullivan: our, it's a, it's our Flock Friday interview with Gregg Tully and Liliana Pacheco of Animals Unbound, and it was fascinating.

    Jasmin Singer: Fascinating. I loved it. It, it was really good. Um, so I definitely recommend that people check out the full episode of the, the full interview, uh, which is tomorrow. And thank you so much for tuning in today, and I am sure that we will talk to you very soon.

    ​

    ⇧ Close Transcript

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