Animals Unbound Is Helping Animals in Crisis Zones Around the World

And I, I can't cover anything other than a glimpse of their bios right now, because it would actually be quite fascinating. Their bios are quite fascinating, but it would take the whole interview. So let, let me, let me try. Uh, Liliana, in addition to her work empowering animal protection organizations worldwide, is the head of a wildlife sanctuary in Guinea, West Africa, for animals confiscated from the illegal wildlife trade. She's a licensed psychologist. I, I have some questions about my childhood, Li- Liliana, for later. Just kidding. Um, she spent 10 years as the founding director of the Jane Goodall Institute in Senegal and Guinea, and has worked to stop wildlife trafficking in Guinea with the WARA, that's W-A-R-A, Conservation Project.

MariannSullivan: Gregg Tully, as CEO and founder of Animals Unbound, has organized donations of more than 1,200 tons of food for dogs and cats in the Ukraine, and spay/neuter surgeries for nearly 10,000 animals in Ukraine. Was previously the CEO of the Pan African Sanctuary Alliance and CEO of the SoyDog Foundation. Oh, and he also has a PhD in biology. And, uh, these are really impressive people, and I think that what you're doing is, is... I, I know you've barely started this project. It sounds so important and, and, and, and so exciting. So welcome, Liliana and Gregg.

Gregg Tully: Uh, thank you. It's really a pleasure to join you. Thank you so much for inviting us.

JasminSinger: We're very excited to have you. There's, I mean, there's just a lot going on here already that I want to dig into, but let's start with this. On your website, it says that Animals Unbound operates at the intersection of animal crisis intervention, capacity building, and fundraising, stepping in where others have not.

So those things sound like very different projects, but tell us how they all fit together.

Gregg Tully: Yeah, that's a good question. They are very different. Um, I mean, we- so Animals Unbound, it's a new organization, and we deliberately wanted the mission to stay, stay broad so we can adapt to situations that come up.

Um, a lot of, well, a lot of, I mean, both of our experiences, building up organizations and strengthening them, you know, starting organizations as, like, a one-person charity and then building it up to be a proper team. And so, um, that's something that we're doing for, for other animal charities around the world, um, ranging from, I don't know, you know, a a dog shelter in Indonesia to a chimpanzee sanctuary in Cameroon to, a, you know, an animal activist group in the US.

Um, but we're, you know, we're, we're supporting these organizations. And also, um, you know, so that, that's for the, the part of strengthening organizations. And then, you know, we also wanna be able to react to urgent needs and raise money where, where, it's desperately needed. And so that's the, the s- the second side of the work that Animals Unbound is doing. Um, of s- so far we've been focusing a lot on animals in Ukraine because there are...

You know, when, when, the war in Ukraine started, um, just mil- I think 14 million people left their homes, and some of them brought their pets with them and a lot didn't. And so just millions of dogs and cats are on the streets in Ukraine now. And, um, and these aren't, you know, street dogs like in India, for example, where these, they sort their... These are, like, you know, people's little Chihuahuas and, like, house cats that are, uh, left out in snowy winters. And, um, so we're working with a big network of volunteers and other partners there.

So, um, so that, that's, been our main focus so far.

But we wanna stay ready that the next time there's, you know, an earthquake or a flood, if we feel like we're in a position to get involved, um, especially by, you know, building capacity of local groups on the ground, that, that's, that's what we would like to do.

So, um- So I guess I could sum it up by saying we, we wanna be able to, you know, respond where things are urgently needed, but mostly do it by supporting local groups instead of just, you know, rushing into it blindly.

MariannSullivan: I mean, I love this whole idea. Like, there are so many groups around the world and, and, and they don't get the attention or the support that they need. And you seem to manage to at least be trying to catch them just at the need where they can get more attention because there's a crisis happening, not a good reason for more attention, but, uh, that, that there's an opportunity to go in there and help build capacity.

It's so important. Um, you seem to work mainly with small to medium sized groups, uh, which I think is great. Uh, I, I'm not against large groups, but there's a limit to what they can do in a lot of situations. So, uh, why are they particularly important, especially in the crisis management work that you do?

Gregg Tully: I feel really strongly about small, small to medium-sized non-profits because, um, I mean, for one reason, the big ones generally have a lot of expertise, and y- they have a lot of staff. And so I feel like we can make a bigger impact by helping the small ones that, you know, they have some fantastic people, maybe there, there are some gaps in what they're able to do.

Um, and also with the small groups, I, I felt... Yeah, I'm, I'm generalizing here. There, there are definitely exceptions, but a lot of times smaller organizations, they are able to respond quickly to urgent needs, you know?

Um, I think, I mean, the...

Ukraine is a great example. And, um, actually, another example, maybe 10 years ago, you may remember there were terrible earthquakes in Kathmandu. And, um, you know, the big animal, global animal charities flew in to help. And, um, I had lived in Kathmandu for some time, and

I was, I was working in Thailand at Soi Dog Foundation, and I flew in also to help. And, um, you know, the, the, partnership between the local Nepali groups and, you know, the, the, the big international ones was, was really powerful.

You know, through the international expertise and the specialization with the local knowledge and the, the cultural knowledge and, um, just the, that experience of working in the country and knowing how to get things done with the government and with local people was, was really invaluable. And then after some time, the big international groups left, and the, the small local organizations were still there dealing with the repercussions of these earthquakes and all these, you know, farmed animals that were injured when sheds collapsed and, you know, pets that were left homeless. And so, um, you know, the, especially with emergencies and disasters, the local groups, they're there for the long term.

You know? I mean, it's, it's terrific when a big organization can fly in and, you know, make an impact, but they're not going to stay for, for years or for decades. And so I feel like by, by building capacity of, uh, local organizations, they're the ones who are, are living there, and, um, and that's, that's what we need.

We need that sustainability, not just the, uh, the immediate exciting disaster response.

JasminSinger: Yeah, that makes sense. And I want to go back to Ukraine 'cause you brought it up a couple times, and I know that is one of the main focal points of your work. I'd love to know a little bit more specifically about your work there.

Could you shed some light on that for us?

Gregg Tully: I guess we can start from the beginning. Um, so I was, um, I was actually doing a consulting job for an animal charity in Romania that was just a couple... So I was living just a couple hours drive from the Ukrainian border, and I started this job three or four days after the war started in Ukraine. And, um, and it became clear to us that, you know, we, we, had to do something about this. We couldn't just have, you know, life as usual, running an animal shelter when this horrific war was happening almost in our backyard.

And so, um, at that point, there were a lot of Ukrainian refugees leaving the country, and so we, um, set up stations at the border to help people with pets.

You know, there, there were different, different nonprofits had set up different tents along the... at the border crossing. There was, you know, one for, um... yeah, the Red Cross had a tent, and there was one for people with small children, and then a tent for, um, helping people organize transportation onward, and nobody was helping people with animals.

And so we set up a tent for that. I mean, there were people coming across, you know, it was the middle of winter, a, a really cold part of the world. You know, pe- people, they didn't have leashes. They had, you know, little dogs and cats in their jackets huddled against the cold. Some of them didn't have pet food.

Um, so we were providing these supplies and giving them advice about, you know, the import laws of bringing animals into the EU or bringing them to other countries, and, um, and that was... Yeah, and that made a huge difference for people in, I mean, one of the worst times in their lives.

Liliana Pacheco: So from the border, we started getting some food and other, like, little things for the animals just across the border, but already into Ukraine. And then from, um, the first village after U- um, after the border, it was spread into, uh, maybe some kilometers into Ukraine, and that's how we started knowing people.

That's how we started trusting people. Um, understanding also not just the, the, um, the urgency, uh, of the people fleeing the country, but also what was left. That was, uh, the animals at the border that could not cross. And, uh, we just had, like, hit face to face with the reality.

And from there, we started working more and more into not just helping at the border, but getting, uh, tons of food for animals in, um, in dire need. Uh, that could be, um, cats, dogs, uh, uh- cats, dogs, mm, guinea pigs. I mean, there were, there were many a- animals, but basically we focused on the cats and dogs. And, uh, from there we're starting contacting, um, pe- well, actually, people started contacting us through, uh, Instagram, through Facebook. "We know that you're helping. Can you help us out?" And then we, we kind of had to do some, like, tiny background check 'cause th- there c- can be, like, some scammers, unfortunately. And, um, and yeah, then we started spreading, and we just went from the little village after the border, we just went to Odessa, we just went, went to, uh, the north of, uh, Ukraine, and, uh, we ended up helping out many different, uh, areas. And, uh, covering almost to the, like, the front line and helping the military and helping, um, like, not just that, but als- not, not just with food, but also with a sterilization program that you can talk about, right? Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Gregg Tully: Um, yeah, so initially food was really the, the biggest need. You know, just these, like say these, like, dogs and cats that were house pets for their whole lives and were out on the street starving. I mean, l- literally starving. It, it was, it was awful. And so, um, one,

If you going back to what we were saying earlier about the, the big organizations, um, so yeah, the big international organizations, unless they already had staff in Ukraine, they weren't allowing their disaster teams to go into Ukraine because it was still considered dangerous.

You know, it's not like an earthquake where it's happened and then it's safe afterwards. So, um, so instead of them sending their own teams, they were supporting smaller groups like ours, um, by, you know, making donations, enabling us to buy tons and tons of dog food and, you know, leashes and collars and dog jackets. And in the beginning, yeah, food was the greatest need, but, you know, Ukraine hasn't had a culture of spaying and neutering their pets. Um, a lot of people just felt like it wasn't necessary. There wasn't really a lot of information about it. Um, so a lot of these abandoned pets were having puppies and kittens, and sadly, a lot of these puppies and kittens weren't surviving, um, as you can imagine, with no one to take care of them. And, um, so we s- started to work with local vet clinics and organized spay/neuter projects in, in different towns and cities and villages.

So that complemented the, the, the pet food donations. And actually, the the two really complemented each other. And even what we're doing now, I mean, I'm, we're in touch every day with our partners in Ukraine, and, um- Uh, I mean, a typical way that one of these projects develops is that, you know, we will, um, buy some tons of dog and cat food from a Ukrainian, like, a, a, local mom-and-pop pet food manufacturer, and we'll distribute it to a few volunteers who we know, and then they distribute it to more volunteers they know. And then they, they're, they go out regularly and put it out on the streets for, for the dogs and cats. And, um, and some of them will report back and say, "Hey, you know, I'm, I'm feeding, you know, I'm feeding cats in the village of Sirata, and I've noticed there are a lot of cats and dogs that aren't spayed and neutered, and we're seeing some kittens and puppies now."

And then that will come back to us, and also I'll ask some questions like, you know, "How many are there? Can you pick them up, or are they really shy and afraid of people?" And if we can make it happen, then I'll reach out to a vet clinic that we work with and, um, and coordinate things.

We'll say, "Okay, these, on these two days, this veterinary team will, you know, drive a couple hours, pack up all their supplies, set up a temporary clinic in maybe a, a public building or a hotel or a lobby or something like that. And the volunteers who feed the dogs and cats bring them in for sterilization. They spay and neuter them. They vaccinate them for rabies. And, um, and it's worked really well to help manage these populations and prevent a, a true crisis of, uh, of pet overpopulation.

MariannSullivan: That's really exciting work. I, you know, it sounds like, i- if my timeline is right, that this is work you did before you found- you founded Animals Unbound. I'm kinda curious whether this was kind of a, uh, uh, the light went on that this, this sort of thing that you were doing there could be turned into an organization that would be able to do it in other places that were in crisis.

Is that, is, is that how the timeline worked?

Gregg Tully: Yeah, you're absolutely right. Um, Yeah, we started out doing this, well, un- under the umbrella of the organization in Romania, and then we started doing it just freelance. But then, um, yeah, then when we came to raising money, we were asking people, "Well, could you send the money to this charity in the UK and then they'll send it on to Ukraine," or, "Could you send money to my friend's charity in California and she'll send it to Ukraine?" Which isn't ideal, you know. Sometimes donors say, "Oh, okay. Are, are you sure about that?"

But, but Yeah. like you said, the, the light bulb went off. Like, well, we could do this on our own. We don't need to depend on somebody else to do it. We could start our own nonprofit and, um, and through that we can really, you know, manage the finances, manage, uh, we have full accountability for how the resources are being used and the reporting back to the donors and everything. And so, um, so that was really, this work in Ukraine really was the impetus of starting Animals Unbound.

JasminSinger: Wow. That's amazing. I just love the idea of, like, seeing a gap in something and, and filling it.

And to that end, what, what are the consistent gaps that you see in the organizations that you work with that interfere with their ability to be as effective as possible?

Gregg Tully: I'd say it depends partly on the, the scale of the organization and, and how mature they are.

I mean, in Ukraine, a lot... I mean, a lot of the people we work with don't even have official registered nonprofits. It's just an informal group of volunteers who are feeding street dogs or, you know, someone who runs a shelter, and they sort of pay for it, a lot of it out of their own pocket. So in those cases, I think they really just need direct support, you know, funding and maybe some veterinary help and donations of of food for animals, things like that, um, just, just to get by.

But on a bigger scale, we also support a lot of organizations, um, that are... A lot, a lot of these small and medium organizations that we're in contact with sort of they, they spent years sort of getting by, and they're, they're doing really important work, but they wanna get up to a higher level. But some of them don't know what that looks like.

You know, some of them will say to us, like, "You know, w- we've been doing the same work for 10 years. We wanna increase our impact. We wanna help more animals, but we just don't really know what that means." Or some of them know what it looks like, and they have a vision for what their future is, but they don't know how to get there.

They keep saying, "Yeah, I I really want to start this new program to, for, you know, advocacy and raising awareness about animal welfare or, you know, pressuring the government to have stronger laws, but every day I'm just feeding animals and dealing with emergencies and putting out fires."

So, um, what I see organizations need the most is strategic thinking. Um, that could be an actual strategic plan, like a, a plan where we work with them, and we decide, um, you know, where do you wanna be in two years or three years or five years? And then we work backwards from there. So we start with the vision.

You know, the, the, dream of, uh, you know, in five years we wanna be, um... We actually have the... We're, we're about to go to Cameroon in a couple months to work with a, a sanctuary there for chimpanzees and gorillas and monkeys called Ape Action Africa to help them make a strategic plan. And they have these fantastic ideas about, you know, not just taking care of the animals in the sanctuary, but protecting wildlife in the wild and really protecting the forests that, you know, the habitat these animals depend on.

And so that, that's the dream, and then we'll work back from there and think, well, okay, what are some... what can you do tomorrow to, to go in that direction? What can you do in the next month or the next... and then the quarter after that? And give them a real clear roadmap for, um, how to get from where they are now to their, their vision for the future.

And that's something that i, I think a lot of... You know, most people who start nonprofits, I mean, I, I, I think about this as If someone was going to start a for-profit company, they might go to business school, they might, um, you know, work at other companies or do internships and get some training in in different areas. A lot of people who start animal charities just start with a passion and, and a- and a dream, and they don't have all the experiences that, that they need to be successful. And especially this sort of longer term planning is something that a a lot of them need help with, and that's, that's an area that we can really fill in.

MariannSullivan: Yeah, I, I mean, that has always been so obvious. The peop- the people who start animal organizations, like, all, all the... 99% of the time they don't have any training or experience and they, they just have the passion. And you know, one of the things I always say about the passion is that if you drop me down anywhere in the world, there would be some people there who get it about animals. I mean, it's just a universe. It's not everybody by any means. There's not enough of those people, but they are everywhere. You've actually lived that experience, haven't you?

Gregg Tully: Yeah. absolutely. Both of us, um... We're actually, we're, we're a great match because both of us have lived in some pretty diverse places and, and we love doing it. Um, yeah. I mean, even here in Liberia there are, you know, three wildlife sanctuaries, and we just had lunch a couple weeks ago with somebody who runs a, a charity that educates people to be more compassionate to, to the the animals they see locally, which is mostly dogs and cats, but also farmed animals and working animals. So yeah, th- these people are there. It's, um... Yeah. You're right, you're absolutely right. Everywhere you go there are people who have this passion for animals.

MariannSullivan: A few of them.

Liliana Pacheco: And if not, it's always, uh, in this, um, in the countries that we work and we've lived, uh, sometimes there's, uh, not a special interest or passion in animals, but being here, being vegan now and showing them that animals are sentient beings, uh, it, it does make an impact, you know, uh, on their, on, on the every day because they see it on you. They see the passion and they see the changes in the animals that you take care of.

And these changes sometimes are not, uh, are not obvious because they have never practiced it and they have never paid attention, but when they do and they see an animal that is struggling or, like, scruffy or that it's not in good health and then you start taking care of it as, as, you know, we, we might know, then they say, "Oh, I can, I can see a difference. I, I understand now that, you know, maybe I i... m- I mean, and, and it's, it's sad, but maybe I'll eat it in the end, but I know that, you know, I can take care of it and, uh, and, and for the time being, you know, the welfare of this animal has, has improved."

Sadly, it's something that we experience a lot, but, uh, having us as, as role models and as, as people who are passionate and really care, uh, for them it does make a difference, and also for the ani- animals that we do come across.

JasminSinger: You mentioned, uh, that you don't focus on the larger organizations, but I do have a question about larger organizations. Uh, large organizations often also show up in areas of crisis. From your vantage point, and with all of the strategic thinking that you've been doing, what is the way you think they can best use their resources?

And, and w- what are the challenges that they face on the ground that you can help fill?

Gregg Tully: I think the large organizations are often at their best when they're collaborating with the local groups.

You ' know, cause large org- or, you know, the large animal charities, they have people who are, you know, really experienced campaigners and, you know, have a lot of experience with messaging that could, I don't know, convince people to reduce their meat consumption or, or go vegan.

They have, you know, people who have dealt with multiple disasters. Um, it just is this real specialized experience. But in some cases, especially in a, in a disaster, an emergency where they're, you know, flying into a country that they don't have boots on the ground in already, you know, they probably don't know the, the cultural context very well.

Um, they probably don't know the right government officials to get approval to do things or even who the key players are, like the, the other animal charities and activists to, to work with. So I think things are at their best when they, y- the, the small local groups and the big international ones or the big national ones, um, they each use the strengths that complement what the other one does.

I, I, I feel like that's, that's where things work best. Um, I mean, I, um, you know, I think things are at their worst when, you know, a, a, group parachutes into an area, starts a project, gets it up to speed, you know, takes a lot of pictures and videos, and then disappears. And then often the project sort of stumbles and just becomes a shell of what it used to be, and that's, I mean, that's, that's not what anyone wants.

Mm-hmm.

So I, I think, I think that that collaboration is great 'cause, I mean, these big organizations do have tremendous experience. You know, people who have rescued countless animals from really complicated situations or, you know, people who've spent their whole careers running effective campaigns about, you know, changing food systems and, you know, fighting factory farming and issues like that.

So I think that expertise is great as if, as, you know, when, when it's, uh, leveraged in the right way. I guess I'm- we're probably speaking more from an international experience. You know, if an organization is in the country that they're based in and they have dozens or hundreds of staff there, it's, uh, probably less important to have those local partners, but I still think it is important though.

MariannSullivan: Yeah, I know. I, and I appreciate that, how generous you are, because some people will just say that all they do is come in, take pictures, and, and leave. But, you know, I appreciate that you do see them as valuable partners, as long as everybody's kind of playing the right role.

I'm not exactly sure how to ask this question, 'cause I don't know a lot about the different organizations that you're either working with, have worked with, or are planning to work with, but can you just introduce us to, to a few of them?

There's a bunch of them on y- on your, listed on your website. You mentioned Ape Action Africa, which I guess your, that's your plan is, is to work with them. But could you just tell us a little about them or some of the... There's one in Romania. Well, that might be the one that you worked for. Uh, Zimbabwe- India. Like, it's so exciting to see that list. Can you, can you get, can you kind of introduce us to a few of them?

Gregg Tully: Yeah, you mentioned Zimbabwe. Um, so Free to Be Wild is a, a fantastic, um, wildlife rescue organization in Zimbabwe.

Now, Zimbabwe is a, a tough country to work in. Um, I think the, the first time I was there, there was a, a fuel shortage, and I, I had a rental car, and I had to wait on line for about four hours in the middle of the night just to get gas for the car. Um, I think the second time I was there, uh, people, um, they...

The, the government manipulates the economy to their own benefit, and so people don't really use cash. So they use, um, apps like Venmo, and it's it's not... It's similar to Venmo and PayPal for sending money, but there's one that they u- that the whole country uses, and, uh, it crashed for about three days.

So the whole country fell into, like, a bartering system. I, I'm not exaggerating. People were in markets saying, "Okay, I'll give you eight potatoes if you give me three pineapples." It's, uh, it's, it's a tough country with very little support system. And, um, and Free to Be Wild, what, what I'm most impressed with, they, they're not, not just rescue a huge range of animals, I mean, zebras, giraffes, warthogs, monkeys, but they've managed to release a lot of them back to the wild, which is something that a lot of sanctuaries aim to do but really struggle with. Um, but getting animals back in the wild where they belong is really, that's really a, a goal with wildlife rescue, and so they're, um, you know, they're able to do that.

The, The, the, founder, named Baye, has been... She's lived in Zimbabwe her whole life, and she's been really dedicated to animals since she's a kid, since she was a kid, and has this just just this great intuition about when an animal needs rehabilitation, when it's ready to go back into the wild again.

So, um, it's, it's a fantastic group, and they're working on a tiny budget. And, um, so we've helped them, um, like, we helped them set up a US charity to facilitate fundraising. And now just, um, a few months ago, they're, they're on rented, the sanctuary's on rented land, and a few months ago, the owner of the land said to them, like, "You know, I love what you do, but I keep getting inquiries from property developers who want to y- they want, they want to buy the land and put in townhouses. So this is a tough decision for me."

And finally, he offered to, um, sell the land to the sanctuary at about half price, but they had to raise $100,000 down payment in about two months. And, um, so, and for a little, I mean, 100, that, that's probably, you know, six months of operating expenses for them. That's a huge amount- of money for them. And so, um, I worked with Baye. We made a plan. I felt like, "Okay, who do you know who has, who, who's made substantial donations?"

You know, "Who do you know, family, friends, anyone who can donate?" And we made a plan. She drove all over the country meeting with people, and she managed to raise that money. And now we're into phase two of the plan, which is, I think- we need to raise another $150,000 by the end of the year and and we're putting that into place. So, um, so anyway, Free to Be Wild is, is a really fantastic group.

MariannSullivan: Are the animals, like, inju- how does she, how does sh- how do the animals come into her possession and then she, she rehabilitates them in some way so that they can be released?

Are they injured?

Gregg Tully: Most of them are injured, and, um, some of them are orphaned by bush meat. Um- you know, i- in a lot of Africa, people will go into the forest with a rifle and just shoot anything that they can eat and can carry out. And then if it's, for example, if it's a monkey that has babies, they'll often kill the monkey and and sell it for meat, and then the babies, maybe they sell them in a market to be somebody's pets. Maybe, um, they just put them in a cage somewhere. but but the m- the babies often end up going to the sanctuary. And a lot of the animals are injured, um, you know, hit by cars, things like that, or, um... And so yeah, so the rehabilitation involves a lot of medical treatment for injured animals, and also, um, sort of the, the psychological first aid.

You know, I mean, bringing in a baby monkey that's traumatized, it needs to be attached, it needs to be clinging to somebody all the time, which could be a volunteer, it could be another monkey, um, it could be a staff member. And then eventually you'll introduce the monkey into a social group and that can take a lot of trial and error to, um, make sure it's a good fit and everybody gets along with each other. Um, but yeah, but most of them at Free to Be Wild are, are injured.

And so every... I mean, there's, like, a... a... and it, and it's really interesting, it's, it's sort of a free-range sanctuary, you know what I mean? The, like, the baboons are kept in an enclosure because if they're not kept in, they'll get into the kitchen and steal food- ... and make a mess. But a l- a lot of the animals are, um... I mean, there's a, yeah, a, a, a vulture with one wing who just wanders around and- sort of says hello to people. And, uh, you know, there's a, I think there's a, there's a bush pig that runs around too.

It's, um, it's, it's a special place.

MariannSullivan: Liliana, can you, can you share a story of a different one of your, uh, the groups that you've been working with?

Liliana Pacheco: We have also worked with an organization in India called TOLFA, which is, uh, Tree of Life. Um, and, uh, they mainly focus on dogs, Uh, but they also have cats, but and that is for the domestic animals, but they also have, um, uh, like sacred cows and camels and, uh, and donkeys and horses and other animals. And all these other animals, they do come from, um, either abandoned, uh, because they were not, um, useful anymore.

Or because they were injured and then they were just, again, abandoned in, um, in the street or just left to, left to die unfortunately. And TOLFA, um, they have a really good reputation in their, in their area. And they have two different, um, ambulance that are specialized in either, um, rescuing cats and dogs or rescuing big animals because, uh, you know, uh, uh, and a, little ambulance for a dog is not the same as an ambulance for a camel, for example.

So they have these big ones that have like cranes and, and stuff because usually the, the mm, how they find the animals, it's- that's, um, it's sad and it's very, um, critical 'cause the animal cannot really stand by, by itself.

And once in the sanctuary, they usually never leave except for the dogs that can go back to their owners or back to their, um, neighborhood. The other ones stay there for pretty much for- for life. And, um, they are amazing people. They take care of, uh, hundreds of animals actually. And just recently, um... well, actually you helped them, right? get, uh, some new land for the cons- for the construction of one part of the sanctuary that's gonna be just solely dedicated to the animals that, uh, can never go back to, um, owners because they don't might not have any or their neighborhood. And they are, um, unfortunately disabled somehow, and they need like specific treatment. And so they just... maybe you can talk about it. They- Yeah ... they just got this new land and, um, and we're very happy that we could help with that. And Gregg will just say a little more.

Gregg Tully: Yeah. Well, Yeah. Well, um, yeah, you're exactly right. originally it started as a, as a, an animal hospital. You know, a nonprofit animal hospital, but they started taking in so many of these animals, especially, uh, donkeys and cows that couldn't go anywhere else that it, the hospital really turned into a shelter. But then they were just able to buy land that they're going to convert into a proper shelter.

So now these long-term care animals will go into the- the new land and the hospital will return to being a hospital where they can really focus on the animals that need, you know, around the clock medical treatment and intensive care. Yeah. And, um, but yeah, I mean, the nearest- the nearest other, the next nearest animal charity to where they are is hundreds of miles away, so they're really on their own there taking... I mean, if they don't help an animal, no one else is going to help it.

Mm-hmm.

And so, um, they, yeah, they, they do incredible work.

Yeah. And the- the good thing about us working together in Animals Unbound is that he has, um- an amazing background and he specializes in everything that has to do with the strategic planning and, um, I am more like, um, the technical side of it when it comes to trainings, when it comes to, uh, new technologies and developing, um, other parts that are equally important but are more, like, on the ground. And so for anything that has to do with dog population management or, uh, vaccination programs for rabies or in, in national, like this is for domestic animals. And then in national parks when it has to do with, um, um, collection of data for the protection of, um, of the wildlife, uh, for the rangers.

So it's it's like a, it's like a good combination and, uh, I hope that, you know, eventually we'll flourish and we'll be able to help a lot more organizations and animals. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. For example, so we spent two months at TOLFA and, um, I worked with the leaders to make a, I think it was a three-year plan that we made. Yeah. And, um, and Liliana worked with... so they, they've been running a street dog spay/neuter project, but then the question is, is, it making a difference?

You know, I mean, the, the purpose of one of these projects isn't just to put a lot of animals through surgery, it's to reduce the number of animals living on the streets. So she taught the staff how to use an app to, uh, you know, go around and count dogs and and do some statistics to calculate, you know, what, how the population is changing and make sure that what they're doing is really working. So- yeah, it was, it was a good, we're a good team.

Liliana Pacheco: Yeah.

MariannSullivan: Yeah, I really can see how these organizations must be thrilled to see you when you walk in. getting that kind of help. 'Cause th- they're so alone with this work. Like you said, there, there's no other organ-

I mean, it's, it's hard, and then they have all those animals to take care of, which is kind of a full-time job.

JasminSinger: I agree. I mean, I, I did, I wanted to ask for a little bit of clarity on one thing. How does your work sort out between wild animals, captive wild animals, and domesticated animals?

Gregg Tully: Really, if we feel like we can make a difference, we'll, we'll do it. Um, you know, we're not specific to different parts of the world. I mean, we help anything from farmed animal advocacy groups that don't do any animal care at all, or, um... you know, I'm, I'm doing some work now with AAVS, the American Anti-Vivisection Society, which, you know, campaigns to end animals being exploited for science, all the way to, yeah, dog shelters, wildlife sanctuaries.

It's really if, if we feel like we can make an impact for animals, um, we'll, we'll go there. I mean, obviously there are important differences between these different types of organizations, but especially at more of the level of planning and, you know, strategizing, um, uh, there are a lot of similarities regardless of, um, you know, regardless of where they are or which species they're helping.

Liliana Pacheco: Mm-hmm.

When it comes to, uh, similarities, um, as he said, um, in the strategy, at a strategy level, maybe there are not that many differences, but of course, when it comes to the care of wild animals, uh, that have been confiscated or that have been abandoned in, you know, uh, in, in my case, um, for them, um, through this research. 'Cause uh, now I'm working with, uh, chimpanzees, um, in, uh, here in, in Liberia, although, uh, you know, just a few months ago, I was, I was in Guinea. Now I am in, uh, here in, in Liberia, uh, with chimpanzees. And, um, yeah, the- of course, there, there's a difference when it comes to taking care of, uh, dogs and, and cats to when it takes... you know, when it has to do with dealing with, you know, wild animals that are in a sanctuary because their, their nature is not domesticated, and so they are potentially dangerous. And, uh, sometimes there's a lot of confusion because they...

You know, for example, our staff, they're used to seeing them as, um, as baby pets, 'cause chimpanzees can be very cute when they're little. But when they grow, they, um, just at the age of, uh, four or five years, they can be, um, they can be dangerous to humans. They're like, uh, around seven times stronger than, than us and, um, they have, um, like two hands, but also two feet that are like hands and they can... that's why they can climb on, on trees.

I mean, it's, it's, it's a huge difference. And, uh, fortunately we do know, um, wildlife and we do know domestics, and that's why we can, I mean, we can help a broad, uh, number of, uh, of organizations.

MariannSullivan: Yeah. And just to be clear, I think we mentioned it in the intro, but just to remind people, you both work with Animals Unbound, which is what we've been talking about, and you run the sanctuary. Is that right? Yeah. W- I guess those are sort of separate, but-

Gregg Tully: Yeah. We're kind of in transition. The Animals Unbound is just, just became a registered nonprofit a few months ago. And so we've... So our, our work in Ukraine immediately came under the umbrella of Animals Unbound. And, um, i, I was already doing, you know, capacity-building work, just sort of freelance, um, you know, some for pay, some pro bono.

And now that's come under the umbrella of Animals Unbound. And yeah, separately from that, Liliana's also running a chimpanzee sanctuary. So, um, yeah, we- we're involved in a lot.

Liliana Pacheco: Yeah, Yeah.

MariannSullivan: Um, I, you know, farmed animals are kind of our particular, not exclusive, but our particular interest. I'm kind of curious as to, like, what you can accomplish there. Uh, like, like you mentioned, you work with some farm a- farm animal advocacy groups that aren't really doing animal care. Like, like what can you do for farmed animals?

Um, both on the, I guess, in some of the places you work, it's smallholders who have a few animals and, you know, there's care issues, and then there's factory farming, which of course is everywhere now.

Gregg Tully: Yeah. So, um, I guess maybe I'll start with the, on the smaller scale. So there's, um, an association called GFAS, the Global Federation of Animal Sanctuaries, and they, um, they accredit sanctuaries around the world to show that they're legitimate. And, um, you know, there are a lot of organizations that call themselves sanctuaries, and it's more of a petting zoo. And, um, just as one example that came to mind is we do, um, accreditation site visits for GFAS.

You know, the members sanctuaries have to be re-accredited every few years. And we do some of these visits on their be- especially because we're in Africa and, um, their staff are all in the US, it's really helpful for them that we can travel. So just, um, I think a year ago, we went to South Africa and did accreditation visits of a few sanctuaries, including a farmed animal sanctuary called Greyton Farm Animal Sanctuary in, in South Africa.

And, um, so it started out as, you know, we were there for a couple days with a checklist, you know, asking some questions and taking pictures. But then we started to talk about things like how they manage the animals and how they manage the staff. And, um, they started to talk about fundraising, and then we really went beyond the scope of the accreditation, and we talked with the the founder and the, the leaders a lot about, um, you know, how they're, how they're raising awareness, how they're working with local farmers.

They have a great program where they, um, they convince pig farmers to convert to be vegetable farmers. And so, you know, we talked about how they're building relationships with these people and building trust with people when initially there's a lot of suspicion. So, um, we- I mean, this wasn't an official role of Animals Unbound, but through our experience, I think we had some really valuable discussions.

And I mean, we're, we're still in touch with, with Nikki, the founder, by email. She's, she's fantastic. And, um, and so yeah, we did talk about, what did we... yeah, we talked a lot, a lot about fundraising and, and planning for the future. So I think that that's one example. Um, and then, yeah, more of a bigger scale, um, you know, we've worked with organizations to plan, plan campaigns and really get into the, the project management of an advocacy campaign, for example.

You know, starting from clearly identifying the problem and, um, th- th- that's actually one of the, I think one of the hardest parts is, you know, we say, "Well, we want everyone to be vegan." It's like, well, we, we do, but let's start with a goal that we can accomplish. And then, um, you know, who's the target audience?

What kind of messaging is going to work best for that audience? Is it social media? Is it traditional media? Is it, uh, you know, something more physical, billboards? And then sort of, you know, working from there about- what messages to use and, um, you know, budgeting and, uh, making a timeline for it. So I th- so yeah, we've also helped with, um, th- those sorts of areas about running campaigns.

You know. I mean, I'm, I'm definitely not an expert in, in many things about farmed animals, but, um, you know, we, we can work with organizations to create a, a feasible goal and practical objectives and, and work with them to get to there, which I guess is the, maybe it's not the most exciting part, but I think it's, um, it's, it, it's critical for success.

MariannSullivan: Yeah, absolutely.

Gregg Tully: There's a, a charity based in California called Arukah Animal International, and it's it's a farmed animal advocacy group. And, uh, a campaign they're working on right now is, is octopus farming.

I don't know if you know, but there's, um, there's a very real risk of, you know, the first major commercial octopus farm being started, which could then cause a cascade of a lot of octopus farms, um, you know, mainly feeding demand in Europe. And, um, so I'm working with them on figuring out, you know, campaign messaging and what's going... you know, again, again, who are you trying to speak to? It's, um, I think a lot of us fall into the habit of coming up with messages that are going to work really well with vegans and, you know, get a lot of traction on social media with vegans, but you know, is that who we wanna talk to?

Or do we wanna actually talk to people who aren't vegan but are open to our messaging and are willing to convert? Or, you know, for this campaign, maybe people who are, who would eat octopus or, um, you know, maybe just general animal lovers and try to convince them to take action, you know, sign a petition about octopus farming.

So, um, so yeah, yeah, so I have, I have calls every week with the, the head of Arukah and and we, um, strategize how to use the resources they have to, to make the biggest impact on this issue.

Mm-hmm.

MariannSullivan: I just want to add that, I think it was last night, the New York State Senate and Assembly both passed New York State's octopus farming ban. It just has to go to the governor now. So that's progress.

Gregg Tully: That's amazing.

Liliana Pacheco: Oh, congratulations.

MariannSullivan: I didn't do anything to accomplish it, but the people who are working on it are are really amazing. Uh, so that's very exciting to hear. It's so important to ban something before it's there. So much easier.

Liliana Pacheco: Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Gregg Tully: That's a really good point.

JasminSinger: So Mariann mentioned factory farming. Uh, you must be personal witnesses to the growth of factory farming around the world. What does that look like from your seat?

Gregg Tully: I I guess one, one nice thing about living in a lot of developing countries and under-resourced countries is that a lot of the farming is more traditional farming, which, um, you know, um, obviously we'd rather they don't farm animals at all. But it's, you know, I mean, I think in, in Liberia, I'm sure there aren't any farms that have 1,000 chickens. But, um, but yeah, it, it is becoming popular all around the world. One, one thing that we see a lot is, um, with increasing...

I mean, like, i- in, in, some of the least developed countries, people are mostly vegan by default. Um, I mean, I can give Nepal as an example. You know, we've spent a lot of time in Nepal, and, um, the traditional Nepali diet is rice and lentils and vegetables, two meals a day every day. Maybe on a, you know, a holiday or a festival they might eat some meat, but they're just culturally they eat this vegan diet, um, their whole lives.

But, um, now obviously I'm not saying that people should live in poverty. But one of the negative effects of a growing middle class and a growing upper class is that more people are moving to cities, more people are now eating meat.

Um, there's just more access to, to different kinds of food, including meat, and it's considered kind of a high-class thing to do. You know, if somebody wants to- Yeah impress their business clients, they'll take them out to, for a, a, a meat-based dinner. And so, um, so we're definitely seeing growing meat consumption in the places that we live in and that we travel to a- as a result of this.

And so, um, obviously it, it's great that, you know, countries are getting better healthcare and better access to education and, you know, better literacy. But something that's coming along with this is, um, yeah, there's, um, people are shifting away from traditional plant-based affordable diets and, and going for more expensive food.

So, um, I mean, a lot of the countries that we, we've been spending time in, I mean, I've lived in Nepal and Thailand and, uh, y- you know, we've lived in Guinea together, and now Liberia. I mean, I haven't seen factory farming on the scale of in the US. So, um, you know, these sort of farms you drive by, and you keep driving and keep driving, and they're still there. But, um, but it, it is getting worse. It definitely, um, you know, there's more and more, yeah, farms are g- are getting bigger and more industrial, and people are shifting away from more traditional methods.

And so it's, sadly, I think this is, this is getting worse in a lot of parts of the world.

Sorry, I didn't mean to have such a negative message,

JasminSinger: No, that's okay!

MariannSullivan: It's a, it's a, it's a dark place, but, you know, we all have to keep, uh, keep in mind that that's what's going on. Um, so- uh, I don't wanna end on a dark note, but we are, uh, almost done.

So Liliana, I'm just gonna ask you this strange question. I kinda noted to, to you before, I noticed in your bio that you used to run a sanctuary in Liberia, and I, I'm almost certain this is the same sanctuary that our friend Sangu Iyer, um, wrote a short work of nonfiction years ago, we published, was in our very, very, very short episode as publishers. I think we published two works. But it is so beautiful. It is so good, and dark, and, and weird. It's called The Lines We Draw. And, and, uh, we, very oddly, we just happened to talk about it the other day on the podcast because Sangu has a new book out.

And, uh, this was the same sanctuary, I believe, and it was originally established by the New York Blood Center to do research. It later transitioned to a sanctuary, and I think that's a really nice note to end on, that, that a place of such harm became a place of sanctuary.

I, I, I won't ask you to go into it, but can you just tell us a little bit, uh, about it? And, and did it really transition into a place where, where the chim- I think it was all chimpanzees, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, and that, that are living good lives?

Liliana Pacheco: Yes, yes, they are. They are. And, uh, with the work that we're doing, we're trying to increase their, their welfare because they were abandoned on, uh, different islands, uh, in Marshall, the, which is a mangrove area, it's a wetland area.

Gregg Tully: So I'll, just jump in and say, so chimpanzee don't swim.

Liliana Pacheco: Mm-hmm.

Gregg Tully: So if you wanna keep chimps confined, you can either do it in little cages or really big enclosures, but they always find ways to escape, or you put them on islands. So if you have some chimps that you don't wanna deal with anymore, putting them on islands is an easy, easy way out.

Liliana Pacheco: Mm-hmm. So, um, when all this happened, uh, Humane, um, HSI, Humane Society International, were the ones who, uh, committed to taking care of, uh, the chimpanzees that were abandoned. At that time, there were s- uh, 60-something. I, I don't really remember the, the exact number, but, uh, that was in 2015 that Humane World started, uh, taking care of these chimpanzees and it continues up to today.

We committed to taking care of these chimps for, uh, for lifetime of these chimpanzees. and and that's, that's what we're doing. And I'm, I'm very happy that we can contribute to this, um, retired chimpanzees, um, that were taken from the wild and, uh, now they have a second chance. And this is the name of the sanctuary, Second Chance Chimpanzee Refuge, Liberia.

JasminSinger: Wow

Liliana Pacheco: So I'm very proud of the work that I'm doing

MariannSullivan: Yeah, it, it's a beautiful story.

And I think when Sangu wrote that, it was right before that happened, so she didn't have that happy ending to her. I mean, I don't know how much you probably know a lot about the backstory, but the backstory here is insane.

And, um, I highly recommend anybody interested who... It's available on Amazon for, uh, The Lines We Draw, it's called. It's like for a couple of dollars. And it's a crazy story, with crazy people, and you realize that sometimes these animals fall into the hands of people who are just very odd and, and do horrible things, but think they're doing good things. I mean, it's just craziness. What a lovely way to end this interview to know that, uh, there was a happy ending.

JasminSinger: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Totally. Uh, can you please just tell our listeners and viewers how people can learn more about your efforts and support your work?

Gregg Tully: Oh, thank you so much for saying that. Yeah, um, well, our organization is called Animals Unbound. You can go to animalsunbound.org. Um, we're just getting started on social media because the organization's only a few months old as, as I said, the, the... We've been doing this work for years, but doing it as a proper non-profit is, is, is new for us. But we are on the, all the social media channels, and so you can find us and follow us there. And yeah, if you want, we send an occasional email newsletter with updates about our work, so people can sign up for that. and we'd love to hear from you, too.

We're always, we're always keeping an eye out for more organizations that we can collaborate with, share ideas with, he- help out in some way. Mm-hmm.

JasminSinger: Amazing. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for spending some time with us today. Uh, it's been just

Gregg Tully: This has really been a pleasure. This has been a lot of fun.

JasminSinger: It's been an honor, I mean, to just learn about the work you're doing, and just the way that you're going about it is so inspiring, and you are definitely a powerhouse team. So thank you for all of the ways that you're changing the world for animals. And I know you're gonna stick on for a little bit and do a quick Q&A with, uh, our some of our flock who are here. Uh, but we'll, we'll end there. Thank you Gregg Tully and Liliana Pacheco, and we will hopefully catch up with you soon.

Gregg Tully: Thank you so much.

Liliana Pacheco: Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Thank you. It's been a pleasure.