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App not listed? Try this RSS linkIn this episode of The Hen Report, Jasmin Singer and Mariann Sullivan welcome flock member and postdoctoral researcher Neha Nataraj from the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. Neha attended the Johns Hopkins/PCRM Summer Immersion on Innovative Approaches in Science — a free, four-day conference focused on reducing and replacing animal use in biomedical research and toxicology — and shares what she learned about the cutting-edge science, the people driving it, and the complex realities of working toward a world with fewer animals in labs.
- Non-animal methods (NAMs) explained: Neha breaks down the three main categories of new approach methodologies — in vitro (cell cultures, organoids, organ-on-a-chip), in chemico (molecular analysis), and in silico (AI and computer modeling) — and where each stands in replacing animal testing.
- Federal momentum for animal-free science: The NIH’s newly created Office of Research Innovation Validation and Application (ORIVA) signals growing government investment in NAMs, with a goal of fully replacing animals in preclinical drug testing — though full replacement in basic biomedical research remains a longer-term challenge.
- The human side of animal research: A standout panel featuring Maddie Krasno (Executive Director, Justify), Madhu Nag, MBS, PhD (CSO, inSphero), and Alexis Feidler, MS (Neuroscience PhD candidate, University of Rochester). explored the emotional toll animal research takes on scientists, and how some have redirected entire careers toward humane alternatives.
- PCRM’s outsized impact: The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine was highlighted as a key driver of systemic change, including securing the FDA’s I-STAND program, which allocates dedicated funding for non-animal methods.
- Upcoming documentary — “The New Gold Standard”: A brand-new film about cutting-edge science replacing animal testing had its second-ever screening at the conference; watch for its release on PBS this fall.
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INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Jasmin Singer: Welcome to The Hen Report. This is Jasmin Singer.
Mariann Sullivan: This is Mariann Sullivan
Jasmin Singer: We have a very special guest for our Hen Report today.
I will get to that fabulous intro in a fabulous second. But before I do, just a quick reminder that The Our Hen House podcasts are sprinkled throughout your week like, like delicious brown sugar on your coffee.
Which I'm probably saying because I'm currently drinking a mediocre cup of coffee that does have brown sugar Trader Joe's oat milk creamer in it. I should just sprinkle it with some brown sugar. Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays, and the long form interview on Fridays. Bonus content for flock members comes out on Mondays.
As you. probably know by now, we're a podcast and we're on YouTube, So hit subscribe, hit like, comment wherever you listen. So speaking of flock members, I would like to welcome a flock member to Our Hen House today. Flock member Neha Nataraj is here to tell us about a recent conference she attended.
Welcome to Our Hen House. Welcome to The Hen Report, Neha.
Neha Nataraj: Thank you. So happy to be here.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah, we're so excited. We had a also a chance to have, uh, have a meal with you recently as you were traveling with your family through Rochester, and so we got to introduce you to The Red Fern. Did you like it?
Neha Nataraj: Yeah, it was delicious.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah
Neha Nataraj: the dessert too that, that was a disaster cutting and sharing,
Jasmin Singer: you, you're, you... It's true that you don't have a future in dessert cutting, but I will, I will contextualize why that doesn't matter because you already have quite a bustling career and don't need to worry about whether or not to cut pie as a living. Neha is a po- postdoctoral researcher at the Perelman School of Medicine.
Did I say that right? Perelman?
Neha Nataraj: Yeah
Jasmin Singer: Okay. At the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. And when we found out that she was attending the summer immersion program sponsored by PCRM and Johns Hopkins, we, we wanted to hear more about it, particularly because she has promised, promised, promised to dumb it down enough so that we can understand it.
Uh, so I know that we foisted this opportunity at you when we were like mid-dessert or something. And so I hope you don't feel like you had to say yes, but I just want you to know I'm very excited that you did, regardless of whether you felt bullied into it.
Neha Nataraj: Yeah, I really felt bullied. No, I'm just kidding. I was very honored to be asked. I kind of stared at you for a second before I said yes.
Jasmin Singer: Well, I'm very excited because I know that there's a lot going on in this particular field. So before we get into it, what is the summer immersion program and what was this year's goal?
Neha Nataraj: Yeah. So, um, the Summer Immersion program is, uh, co-hosted by, uh, the Johns Hopkins Center for Alternatives to Animal Testing, or CAAT, as they call it, um, which is housed in the School of Public Health. Um, and the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, which I think we've talked about on the podcast before, which is this great organization that promotes, you know, plant-based nutrition as well as, um, you know, veganism in general, advocates for that.
Um, and so they co-hosted their fourth biennial, uh, Summer Immersion on Innovative Approaches in Science. Uh, so it's basically a free four-day conference in Baltimore. They host it at Johns Hopkins. The event is designed to educate scientists on non-animal methods for animal testing as well as, uh, biomedical research to advance humane science.
Um, and then also to provide networking opportunities within the field, um, learn new techniques, uh, workshops. and so yeah, I heard about this opportunity and I was like, "I got to go and, uh, experience it." Yeah.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. I, you know, it's so exciting that you're here because I, I'm always hearing about conferences that sound interesting, but this one would, you know, I, you end up not traveling and then you don't know what happened to them, so it's great to have somebody tell you, especially when it's about topics that you probably wouldn't understand when you were there. So you mentioned that it's, free. Is it by invitation? Who would, who's there? Uh, is it, uh, I mean, you're a scientist. Is it others, mostly other scientists? Is it, students?
What is the crowd made up of?
Neha Nataraj: Yeah, it, I mean, the reason it's free, um, is because they wanna make it completely accessible to all people, regardless of their background and training. Um, and they also offer travel grants, which means, like, there were people from all over the, like, world there, which was really cool.
So, like, if you're willing to present a poster on your science, they were offering travel grants.
There were people from, like, Taiwan and, like, Poland and, like, like, all over from, um... Yeah. It was, It was, really, like, nice to see so many different people interested in this field.
I met an undergrad there. Um, although to be fair, I don't know if there were that many undergrads, but, um, you know, she was interested in science, and she was local, so she, she came.
Um, but you know, there're graduate students, post-docs, early career professors, you know, the whole range.
Um, um, there was, you know, academic, government, and industry presence as well in terms of, like, sponsors and speakers.
Jasmin Singer: That is so cool. I think it's so inspiring that they make it free and also what you just said about the travel grants because as, as I think we discussed at dinner that time and I think we've discussed on the podcast, the price of some of these conferences really makes it so that a lot of especially younger people cannot attend.
And, and you know, I also understand why there's a cost at conferences, but it's just I f- I'm a very longtime fan of PCRM. I think that the work they do is truly groundbreaking, and I think that even though they do get a lot of credit for the work that they do, I think there is so much that they do that they don't get credit for, and I am just so thrilled that they put on this conference. So what is a NAM? Like you just kind of said it, but I I had assumed when I saw the acronym that it stood for non-animal method, but what, what did you just say? What is it?
Neha Nataraj: So I think depending on who you ask, you'll get like different answers. But I think like the technical like expansion of NAM is new approach methodologies or novel approach methodologies, um, but also non-animal methods. Um,
Mariann Sullivan: That's so tricky.
Neha Nataraj: Yeah
Mariann Sullivan: You can, you can go whatever name you want. All right, so, so let's get into some of the content. I know it's kind of a big question, but can you just kind of give us an overview on where the science is, um, on removing animals from the mix? Uh, some of the most promising new technologies.
What areas of animal use are, are really, uh, moving forward and maybe what areas aren't?
Neha Nataraj: Yes. Okay. So, um, listeners for this podcast probably know from previous episodes on this topic, but broadly, animal use in science falls into three categories. One is like education, like training, you know, m-medical and veterinary training, schools, uh, dissections, that kind of thing. The second is biomedical research, which is both basic and translational studies aimed at understanding both fundamental biology and mechanisms, as well as to develop treatments for human diseases.
Um, and the third category is like animal testing and toxicology, um, like testing drugs in animal models. Um, you know, drug doses and, and what-- and, uh, the, you know, toxicology. And so, um, the focus of this conference was to address the reduction and replacement of animal use in biomedical research and toxicology.
And so they had like a number of talks, panels and workshops where they, you know, covered the ethics, techniques, uh, and new and developing methodology, as well as developing a community around that. Um, so, um, when it comes to NAMs or new approach methodologies, there're like broadly like three different, you know, types of assays that fall within NAMs.
So the first is in vitro assays. Um, and so in vitro basically means like in a Petri dish, a cell culture, um, which could be, by the way, also from animals. You can take animal cells and culture them in a dish. You can take human cells and culture them in a dish. Um, and so traditionally, you know, you do these two-dimensional cultures where you just grow them in a flat layer in a dish, um, and then you can do experiments on them.
Um, but new technology now allows us to do three-dimensional cultures as well to, to develop, um, kinda like mini organs called organoids. Um, and so you can grow human cell-derived three-dimensional organ-like structures. Um, and then we can see maybe some different, you know, outcomes than you would see in a two-dimensional, you know, plane because this is-- mimics more of what would happen, you know, inside the human physiology.
And so this kind of organoid cultures usually involves co-culturing with multiple different cell types. Um, and I think also importantly, I need to address that, you know, huge technological innovation is stem cell-derived, uh, cultures. And so, um, obviously there's a lot of ethical concerns around embryonic stem cell use.
I'm sure that, you know, people have talked about that in, in like pop culture. Um, but, um, what we can do is something called induced pluripotent stem cells, which we can take like, you know, something like a skin cell and reprogram it to become, um, a stem cell and then turn that into any cell, almost any cell of our choice.
Yeah. Um, and so, um, I mean, there're obviously always drawbacks depending on what model system you're using. Um, but having these stem cell-derived cultures has, like, enabled a lot of very exciting, you know, human-based science to happen. And so using those stem cells, we can also make these three-dimensional organoids.
Um, and then there's this, um, organ-on-chip, which is more, you know, novel of, you know, connecting organs to, uh, you know, some sort of like microfluidic system. Um, and then there's multiple organ-on-chips. So you make like a mini lung and a mini heart, and you connect them in a, you know, on a chip. Um, and, uh, basically like combining a lot of biomedical engineering with, um, some of this innovative techniques.
And so this is in vitro assays, so that, that was the first, you know, category of NAMs. Um, and then there's also, uh, something called in chemico assays, I didn't really know anything about going in, but I think it's more relevant to toxicology. And so basically, it's a way, um, where you can do molecular analysis of chemicals and their interaction with biological molecules.
So like testing a drug and see what it does to DNA, testing a drug, seeing what it does to different types of proteins. So that's another kind of, um, you know, uh, NAM.
Mariann Sullivan: When you talk about, um, toxicology, does that cover, mean, did this conference cover and does it generally cover both the whole question of drug testing or does it also cover product testing, or is that a whole different field?
Neha Nataraj: Um, product testing. I don't know.
Mariann Sullivan: Makeup or, or, or, uh,
Neha Nataraj: Oh, cosmetics
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah w- cosmetics or cleaning fl- you know, uh, all the things that they have, have tested on animals, and there seems to be progress there, but it's certainly not complete. You're mostly-- This conference is mostly talking about drug testing.
Neha Nataraj: Yeah. It, it was pretty focused on like, you know,
biomedical and like the bi- broadly like the biomedical field, and so that, what falls into that is mostly like toxicology in biomedical research. So, yeah.
Mariann Sullivan: it
Jasmin Singer: Hmm
Neha Nataraj: But I wouldn't say, like I don't see why it wouldn't be applicable to other, um, other fields.
Yeah. Um, and so the third, um, you know, subcategory within NAMs is in silico models, which basically means computer modeling and simulation, um, and, you know, systems biology, um, machine learning, and now, um, you know, there's a huge component of AI. Um, and basically, you know, together with all of these different assays and approaches, you can model complex human biology in a way that, you know, you can't quite do with animal modeling.
Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.
Neha Nataraj: Although you would get an argument back from a lot of scientists that these NAMs compliment animal research as well, and so together we can kind of get a bigger picture of what's happening in humans.
Jasmin Singer: So which of these alternatives seemed closest to widespread adoption, would you say?
Neha Nataraj: So, um, okay. That's a, that's a great question. I would say, I think that in combination we can start replacing different things. Um, one of the speakers at the conference, um, was this person at the NIH named Warren Casey. And so he's the Executive Director of, um, something called ICCVAM, which is the Interagency Coordinating Committee on the Validation of Alternative Methods.
Um, and actually, the day he spoke, um, he had just been appointed the director of a brand-new office that was formed, um, within ICCVAM called ORIVA, which is the Office of Research Innovation Validation and Application. So it was brand new. So he, like, on the stage, said, "Oh, listen, my title has changed because guess what?"
And he goes to the next slide, and then he's like, "This brand new office was just announced today and everyone was like, "Yay!"
Jasmin Singer: Wow
Neha Nataraj: Um, yeah. Um, so I can talk a little bit more about that. But he did mention, um, that this office called ORIVA, um, it's-- there's, you know, two, um, over, you know, broad, broad goals in terms of, you know, the reduction and replacement of animals in research.
Um, and so when it comes to preclinical testing, like, you know, drug testing all of that, um, their goal is to, like, eventually entirely replace animals in, in that system. Um, but when it comes to biomedical research, their goal is to lessen the emphasis on animals and to provide alternatives, but they don't think that replacement w- really work in that, um, you know, in that field, in biomedical research.
And so I think when it comes to, you know, uh, are we actually gonna see this, like, start changing, um, in the field, I think, um, I think the methods are at a stage where they are gonna be able to supersede, you know, animal testing. And, and there's already a lot of data showing that NAMs work.
Um, you know, c- our current, you know, this current NAMs technology that we have seems to, um, perform better than animal models in preclinical testing. but in biomedical research, unfortunately our, you know, NAMs don't quite meet the mark in terms of ac- like, you know, effectively being able to replace, you know, animals in research.
Jasmin Singer: Can I just dig a little deeper into that?
I just, I-- this is a little striking to me and, um, the fact that you're saying that one of the takeaways is that it's not fully replaceable in biomedical research. So if-- Th- do you think that the experts at the conference were largely aligned on that point, or was there disagreement about how far replacement can ultimately go?
Neha Nataraj: Um, you mean when it comes to biomedical research?
Jasmin Singer: Yeah, specifically
Neha Nataraj: Yeah. Um, know, they didn't have a lot of discussion around that topic. Um, I have to say it's a little bit of a hot button topic in biomedical research.
Jasmin Singer: Okay
Neha Nataraj: Majority of people are adamant that we-- as technology stands today, we cannot just remove animals from research.
Like it's gonna cause huge, like harmful, uh, effects in, in our understanding of medicine. Um, and so, you know, right now there's a lot of changes happening at the federal level to promote, uh, you know, moving away from animals and promote human-focused, uh, research and science. Um, but there is like a great deal of fear that this is the first step to diminish scientific research, um, because animal research is framed as being vital to study a lot of diseases and scientific questions.
Mariann Sullivan: It's interesting. You know, like it-- I guess at this point it's really hard to know what the future is and, and it, it, it is worrisome that if, uh, they don't have a vision of the future, you know, if like, like if the most of the people doing it don't have a vision that this would be a goal even if it's far off, even if, you know, we're-- we don't have the science yet, that they'll never get there. And I think that's, for a long time, I mean, from the outside, I always have a perception that, that they're very wedded to the use of animals and, you know, there's a whole lot of reasons that go into that, and one of them may be because it's absolutely the best science, but there might be other reasons as well. So it would be nice to hear that there was, there was a goal, uh, of, of-
Jasmin Singer: Yeah. that's a good, that's a good point. If, if complete replacement isn't realistic, what does success look like? Is it a 10% reduction, a 50% reduction, something else? I'm just curious about your thoughts, Neha.
Neha Nataraj: Yeah. I am happy to share my thoughts. Um, in my personal opinion, when it comes to biomedical research and having been in basic science for, you know, a really long time, I would say that for a lot of people, you know, in the science they study, at this current moment, it's just not possible. If they wanna continue studying these questions, right?
It's just not possible to suddenly switch to a completely new technique and a technique that hasn't even been, like, perfected, right? Um, I would-- I mean, I would argue, though, I think it's really important to note that there, you know, from this conference, you know, there are these really exciting new technologies that I got to learn about.
It's cutting edge, really pushing, um, you know, the NAM field forward into, you know, next gen NAMs. Um, and that's excelling above non-human models in, in many ways. Um, and I think, you know, they're-- scientists are so smart. Scientists are so smart and dedicated and curious, and I think if we invest in it, both, like, in terms of money, but also in terms of, like, brain power, I think we will establish better and better technology, and the more likely it'll be that we'll be able to replace, replace animals in research.
Um, I think that there is... You know, I, I-- my background is in basic science, which is, like, we justify our work for-- to the NIH to get funding as, like, being relevant to human health. But I have to tell you, to be honest, a lot of the people who do basic science just do it because they're passionate about basic science, about understanding basic fundamental mechanisms.
And like, yeah, we hope that it'll help human health, and a lot of, like, important discoveries happened because people were studying very, like, specific detailed mechanisms. Um, and a lot of that also was done in animals, right? Um, but I think that there is this-- Yeah, there is this notion that we study science for the sake of science as well, which is also, I think, the founding princip- principle for the NSF, um, studying science for the sake of science and knowledge and understanding.
And I think because animals are used as a critical tool to understand science, there's a reluctance to, you know, let that go, 'cause, you know, you're-- you found a really interesting thing that happens in mice. Like, you build an entire research program. Your entire lab is built around understanding this thing that happens in mice.
Jasmin Singer: Is it gonna translate to humans? Yeah, it might, but it might not also. But
Mariann Sullivan: But It's still interesting
Neha Nataraj: It's still interesting, yeah.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.
How do you handle this in your own career? Uh, 'cause you're doing this kind of science that is very frequently rooted in, um, in animal research
Neha Nataraj: Yeah. I mean, I have been really fortunate. I mean, it was intentional, right? I have avoided using animals in, in research, um, at least using animal models in my research for pretty much my whole career. Um, and, you know, that was intentional, like I said. I mean, I've only been vegan for three years, but I've been vegetarian my whole life and I, I never wanted to do experiments on animals, um, or have to kill animals for it.
Um, but-- A- and I've been fortunate also that, you know, people have respected my opinion. They're like, "You know, I like that you stick to your ethics and, and, you know, you don't use animals." Like, people have told me that. Um, and I've had professors support me in that as well and help me find a project that's, you know, human-specific.
Mariann Sullivan: Good.
Neha Nataraj: Um, but at the same time, you know, I'm surrounded by people who do study animals. I read papers all the time that use a lot of animal models. I've read really cool science that revolves around animals, right? And yeah, it's definitely, like, hard to be in that place where you're, like, interested in the science but you also, like, have this, you know,
ethical stance about the way we use animals and that they're not ours to use.
And then I also wanna point out that, you know, even within the NAMS field, a lot of these technologies still use animal products. So, you know, whether it's in the media that you add or something you coat or some antibody to use to stain, a lot of that is derived from animals. Um, and they're not, you know, harmless.
They're-- A lot of this stuff is derived from animals in a very painful and, and horrific way, like, uh, fetal bovine serum or Matrigel. Um, and so it's also hard because, you know, I've, I've focused my work on, you know, not using animal models, but I still, like, use animal products when I'm doing my experiments and cultures.
And I try to find replacements, but there just aren't, like, for everything. They just aren't. And in fact, there was a really cool talk during, um, the conference, from a professor, um, I think in Germany and, um, he- a huge part of his lab, like that's what they're doing. They're trying to find like replacements for a lot of commonly used animal products in NAMS.
And so, um, like, you know, he has, like, I think three papers on, on, like establishing different things that, you know, work robustly and that means he's using animal products to compare against, right? So it's, it's about establishing like that baseline to see how does it compete with existing like, know, reagents.
So, um, I thought that's like really important work. I think it would be great if more people could do that, um, that kind of establish alternatives, you know, xeno-free alternatives as they're called. Um, and, um, yeah,
Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I
Mariann Sullivan: what was the atmosphere at the co- at the conference? Where, w- like did, did you feel like, "Oh my God, I finally found my people"? Was everybody excited and hopeful?
Neha Nataraj: Brought
Mariann Sullivan: Like, what do scientists talk about at the cocktail party? Do they talk about formulas and stuff?
Neha Nataraj: No, they didn't talk about formulas. Um, you know, there were, there was-- like I said, there was a, like, pretty broad range of people there. So when I first got there, you know, everyone was really friendly and talking, but I quickly realized that, like, a lot of the people who were there were just there for the toxicology stuff.
Like, "Oh, this is cutting edge, like, new toxicology," and it was a free conference, so they came. And so, you know, there was a definitely a group of attendees who were there, just for that. Um, and then I think there was a solid group of, like, vegans or people who didn't wanna-- you know, wanted to start working towards a world where we don't use animals in research, um, which, you know, I found a couple of them.
Um, and then, um, yeah, I think that probably, yeah, roughly describes it. And I, I, um, I got friendly with a, uh, a post-bac who wants to, uh, w- w- sorry, post-bac is, like, someone who's graduated college and is working, um, kind of to build up their research so they can then apply to grad school. Um, and, um, she wants to do a dual degree of, like, a vet degree, um, like a VMD or D- DVM, um, and then a PhD, which is a pretty rare dual degree program that's not, like, there aren't that many programs in the country.
But, um, you know, she's vegetarian, wants to be vegan, and she has been doing a project where she uses a lot of mice and, you know, she's not happy with it. And that's, you know, that's why she was there, 'cause she was interested in, in this field. And she was talking about how as soon as, like, her professor heard that she wanted to do, you know, a vet degree, he was like, "Great, you can do more animal projects."
And she was like,
Mariann Sullivan: Mm-hmm. "
Neha Nataraj: Uh, no, it's the opposite." But she was kind of, like, shocked at how, like-- she thought that, oh, in the vet world, like, people would like animals, and I know you guys have talked a lot about, about this too, about how the vet field is kind of, like, strange in that way, where you're trained to care for animals, but care for animals that we then consume or use and exploit.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Neha Nataraj: yeah. So,
Mariann Sullivan: Oh,
Jasmin Singer: Yeah,
Mariann Sullivan: that sounds crazy.
Jasmin Singer: So I, you know, I, I've mentioned-- I know you know this, and we have mentioned it on the podcast before, but I just wanna reiterate that, um, my wife works in human research protection, and so she works for a major university, and a lot of the times the IRBs, which is what she's sort of working with, uh, are-- A-and that's in-internalized review, institutional review board.
Is that what IRB stands for? I'm pretty sure it's insti- it's the I that always confuses me. I'm always like,
Neha Nataraj: Yeah
Jasmin Singer: institutionalized, internal. Okay. And it-- and a lot of times w-within universities, the IRB system is both human research and animal research together. So she wound up, you know, as a vegan of 30-something years, specifically going out of her way to find a university big enough that the two IRBs are separate, the human research and the animal research.
So it, it is-- I'm sort of fascinated by any field where people have to kind of jump through a few hoops to like sidestep animal exploitation.
Neha Nataraj: Yeah.
Jasmin Singer: I, I don't-- going back to your vet thing, I, uh, I know that in vet school it's kind of-- like testing on animals is kind of like part of what you're doing. Isn't it?
I, anyway, I'm digressing, but the point is that, that, uh, that there are probably a lot of hopeful things that people could get from a conference like this. So for someone who cares about animals but doesn't necessarily follow biomedical research closely, what would you say, like what development from this conference should give them the most hope?
Neha Nataraj: Um, to me, what gives me the most hope, I would say, is the changes we're seeing at the federal level, because I think if we're investing the kind of money that they're investing in promoting NAMS, I think we're gonna see s- we're gonna start seeing some shifts. Um, because I, I think that's what it all boils down to.
I think we have a lot of great technology, and I think we just need to invest more to develop it further. I think the way academia is structured makes it really difficult for these changes to happen quickly, because basically how it looks for biomedical research is, like, a ton of little mini baby companies within a university, right?
So, like, each PI or principal investigator, which is basically like a professor who runs a lab, they have to ... basically, they have their own lab space and their own office. They have to recruit all the people who work there, including grad students, post-docs, you know, other employees, and then they have to secure funding, whether that's public or private or both.
And then they, you know, they start this research program based on, you know, a f- couple of fundamental questions. And everybody will do that based on their own training. So if you have an entire cohort across the country or across the globe of people who are trained to use a particular model system to study a particular question and are expanding within those fields, it's really hard to get them to be like, "Okay, throw out all of that training, learn this new technology, and do it now."
Right? Like, it, it's just, like, really, like, not feasible to do that to each lab in each university across the world. And so I think, unfortunately, like with many things, change is gonna have to be incremental and slow. I think the key is gonna be to, you know, have more training and workshops and access to some of these new technologies, including, you know, like, having core facilities at universities who will, like, educate and have resources for people to use.
Um, and then from that, right, and then to incentivize people to learn it and develop it and, and use it, implement it in their labs using, you know, with these funding resources coming from the NIH or other public agencies. then, then you have a new generation of people with new training and new interests who can then push.
You know, be like, "Oh, my background is studying this disease in, you know, mice, but now I'm gonna study it in this different model system because, you know, I did my grad school studying mice, and then I did my post-op learning this new technique, and now I'm gonna start a research program studying this question in using a human relevant model."
Um, so I think, yeah, I think the change is just gonna be slow. But I think, I think it's really exciting what's happening at the federal level. I know that, I know there's a lot of like fear and pushback from biomedical researchers especially about this because-- and I, I think it's true. I think there's a lot of concerning things happening at the federal level obviously, but specific, specific to science, um, you know, it's, it's a little scary what's happening right now actually.
There's some-- we're facing a pretty, uh, significant challenge. Um, there's like a new proposed, um, federal funding changes that are happening from the Federal Office of Management and Budget, uh, like new rules on how that funding is gonna be regulated, which would be like catastrophic to the-- our ability to perform research.
Um, and, and you know, right now they're like open to comment and so there's like, you know, they're trying to galvanize scientists to comment. It would honestly be like really devastating, um, to scientific research in this country. Um, so I think also navigating this in like a pretty complex political landscape, um, I know Mariann often says like, you know, strange bedfellows, and it does really feel like that.
I think we have to be really wary because, um, I mean, I, I just think it's scary because we don't know if this is-- again, like some people are worried that this is the first step to completely get rid of like, you know, good science. Um, and so I think it's important to highlight that this is good science, this is innovative and, you know, we should pour money into this, um, incentivize people to study it and use it and implement it, yeah, and advance it.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I really hope that the current crisis, uh, resolves in a way that there is funding for research, but, but that this moment in time where, where the federal government has like in some ways been more sympathetic, whether for good reasons or bad to, to getting animals out of the, um, out of, out of some areas of research, means that more people like you will be coming in, will be getting jobs.
You know, because I think that having people like you in there has been very rare and, and at, at least from what the, the, the people in the vet schools, um, say, like you just don't get into vet school if you mention that you don't want to do research on animals. So it kind of... I, I would imagine some of the same kind of things go on in science.
So, so the people are never there, uh, to be, to be making these arguments. So the fact that this conference is going on, the fact that the federal government, for whatever reason, is showing a lot more sympathy than it ever has before, I think all of these are really important. and another thing that I noticed was that Maddie Krasno, uh, was one of the speakers, and the work that she's doing, I, I feel like maybe it's just because I'm in my bubble, but I feel like there, there's more attention to, to the fact that this work can be traumatic for a lot of people. Um, it should be traumatic for people, and I don't think that's ever been recognized before. Was, was that at all a topic of discussion or was that the talk that, that only, only your people went to?
Neha Nataraj: Um, no. Um, they-- I thought they did a really good job. The organizers did a really... I think, I mean, I know it was co-hosted by the Johns Hopkins CAAT and PCRM, but the feeling I got is that PCRM did like the, you know, heavy lifting in terms of organizing it. And I did it-- they-- I think they did a really good job in terms of like the order of things because they, you know, they started off with, um, uh, Kathy Hessler actually.
Um, or actually I should say there-- the first talk was from the head of CAAT um, who spoke kind of broadly about NAMS. Um, but then, you know, the second talk of the whole, of the whole conference was by Kathy Hessler, who was by the way on Our Hen House like a really long time ago. I looked it up, like 2012.
Yeah.
Mariann Sullivan: We've known Kathy for a very long time. Yeah.
Neha Nataraj: She was just awesome. I would have loved like a longer talk from her. Um, but um, you know, like...
Mariann Sullivan: and she's on the legal side, so so that means that they were talking a lot about, about the, or at least to some extent about the legal side.
Neha Nataraj: Yeah.
Mariann Sullivan: how it's regulated
Neha Nataraj: Exactly. So, you know, she gave a broad framework about, you know, the, the legal, um, you know, protections or non-protections for lab animals, but then also like, you know, ethical considerations, um, you know, both at the federal level as well as state level. Um, and then I, I mean, I thought that would be really great for like some-- I told you, like some of the people there, or a good deal of the people there were not there for the animals, they were there for innovative science.
And so I think exposing people to that was really... I was just sitting there like, " Yes, all these people are learning about how the, you know, the field abuses animals." And then, um, you know, we g- we got, like I said, like the, uh, you know, NIH, some people from the NIH, um, talking about this new agency, the-- how they're collaborating with the FDA, um, to move away from animals.
Um, and then they kinda-- I guess they, they really like interspersed the different types of talks. Um, there were workshops, and then on the second day, the first thing that they did was have this really great panel with Maddie Krasno, as well as Mallory, um, q- I don't know how to pronounce her last name.
I'm sorry, Mallory. Uh, Mallory Cormier, I think, um, from Save The Buns, um, where she basically, um, you know, she's head of this organization where they are able to recruit and rehome rabbits that were used in laboratories. And, um, then also the third person on that panel was someone named Madhu Nag. Um, she's the chief scientific officer of a company called Insphero, but she-- like, she's had a pretty long career where, you know, she started out, she told the story where she was pregnant at the time, um, and she was working on a mouse model, like, of mouse pregnancy, and she was sitting there like dissecting a pregnant mouse, and then she just had a moment where she just dropped everything and walked away, and she's like, "I'm not doing this anymore."
And she was mid-dissection, and she's like, "I can't do this." Um, and she really dedicated the rest of her career to, like, wherever she went, to promoting, um, moving away from animal models and using, you know, human-based systems. Um, including she was at the NIH, she was at the FDA, um, apparently for pediatric, pediatric drug development, um, because, um, at the early, like, clinical trials, it's, like, not ethical to use actual, like, human children.
They do testing on beagles, um, very relevant to what's been happening.
Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.
Neha Nataraj: Um, but, you know, so then she was able to get them to move away from that and to use, you know, like, human tissue from postmortem, um, like, samples. Um, and so, you know, wherever she went, she was promoting non-animal methods, so it was really cool hearing her story.
And now she's, you know, working at a company where they do, I think, like, 3D, um, cell culture.
Jasmin Singer: Wow
Neha Nataraj: Um, and so, um, I forget your original question. I know it started with Maddie Krasnow. Um, but I I
Mariann Sullivan: I was just curious as, you know, to how it,
Neha Nataraj: they've got all sorts of
Mariann Sullivan: whether there wa- I mean, you basically answered it, whether there was attention to, uh, to, you know, the fact that there're a lot of people who wanna do science and don't wanna do this.
Neha Nataraj: Yes. Yeah. So I thought that panel was great. They even had a Q&A, and then I was like, "Oh, that person's vegan. Oh, that person's vegan." Um, 'cause,
Mariann Sullivan: Cool.
Neha Nataraj: they were, really, like, you know, engrossed in this and sharing their personal stories. They also-- the very first day, at the end of the day, they had a welcome party and, uh, Melanie Kaplan was there talking about her-- You know, she read an excerpt from her book, "Lab Dog."
Um, and I know she was on the podcast last December. Um, but she, you know, talked about her dog, Hammy, who, um, uh, came from one of the three big, um, beagle breeding and testing facilities Envigo, which then closed down. and she tells a really beautiful, uh, story of reporting in her, um, book, "Lab Dog," where she investigated, you know, where her dog came from. And yeah, it was really great meeting her as well.
Mariann Sullivan: I love that all of these people were exposed to these stories.
Neha Nataraj: And also,
Jasmin Singer: Exactly
Neha Nataraj: I have to shout out, I mean, they had 100% vegan food 'cause it was hosted by PCRM, and the food was really good. The food was really good.
Jasmin Singer: That's good
Neha Nataraj: I was in line the first night with people, and they had, like, crabless cakes. And, um, you know, we're going down the line putting stuff on our plates, and I guess there were some, like, you know, non-vegans standing behind me.
And, the- and someone was like, "What is that?" And I was like, "Oh, it's crabless cakes." And he was like, "I'm good." And I was like, "Oh, sorry, you want parts from animals? Like, dead animal body parts?"
Jasmin Singer: Oh my God
Neha Nataraj: that. Ugh, I did. I'm just not very confrontational. Um, but he's like, "I think I'll
Mariann Sullivan: That would've been a lot.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah no. I mean, like, what are you gonna do? Like you're, the, you're doing, you are such a prime example of people using their t- their talent and their skills and their interests to help animals. I mean, what you're doing is really, really fascinating and genuinely is cha- is, is creating change for animals.
Like you and the other scientists there who were, you know, on the right side of history when it comes to animals are the reason why I think people have hope in, in these fields. Uh, I know we have to let you go, but I wanna give you an anecdote and the reason I am is because you told me you like my sidetrack stories.
And so I'm going to tell you that as you're sit- even though Mariann doesn't. Mariann, you don't have to listen
Mariann Sullivan: I kind of do
Jasmin Singer: Yeah. You do have to listen. Um, but, uh, yeah, so I was sitting here thinking how science was always my worst class. Like, I just, I, I don't have a scientific mind. It just, it does not come natural to me.
And I was trying to come up with, like, any science memories from growing up, and I realized that, like, the big one that came to me was that in fifth grade they were dissecting and, uh, you know, I don't remember what kind of animal, but y- I th- it was either a worm or a frog. And I was like, "No way." I had no i- you know, this was the '80s.
I had no idea w- w- if this was allowed or not. I know that now it is. I know that you can, like, opt out and, uh, but at the time, I was like, "I'm not doing it," which was kind of a giant big deal for me and for my, and for, like, my class. So they, they were like, "Okay," and they, they let me go to the, the nurse's office and, you know, sit and whatever, color or something.
Um, and I, and I...
Mariann Sullivan: old were you that you
Jasmin Singer: 10
Mariann Sullivan: you were coloring at the same age that you were
Jasmin Singer: I wasn't coloring. I don't know why I said... Well, I was an artist, so Yeah
coloring probably. I probably was drawing something, uh, or writing m- morose poetry.
Mariann Sullivan: Drawing sounds a little...
Jasmin Singer: Okay.
Mariann Sullivan: a six-year-old,
Jasmin Singer: No, I was, like, 10. But anyway, so then I was like, m- then there's this giant, like, black hole where I don't remember anything about science, because I was, like, a performing artist kid and this and that.
So then I go to a conservatory college for acting. Halfway through college, I transfer to a, a liberal arts school to continue pursuing my BFA in acting, but I hadn't taken any of the, like, core classes that you have to take 'cause I was at a conservatory. So I just kept putting it off and putting it off.
So I, I finish all of my coursework for my BFA, and I had an extra semester of school to do of just those, those core classes that most of the time incoming freshmen are doing. So I'm, like, 22, and suddenly I have to take science in order to graduate college. And I hadn't taken it in, like, a billion years, and, and the only science that my college offered that did not exploit animals was, like, you know, the study of rocks.
So, which I, which I think is probably really interesting, but I was not interested at all. And, um, I don't know what I did to, to pass, but I'm, I'm sure I passed by a hair. Like, I'm sure I passed by, like, just the t- they were like, "Just give it to her 'cause she," you know. Anyway, that's my anecdote. I just thought I'd share it with you.
There's no big moral at the end, at the end of it. But, uh, but, it- I guess it's to say, like, and now we're here, like, in the same,
Neha Nataraj: Yeah
Jasmin Singer: the same virtual room right now, like, both fighting for the same cause, and we both came at it from very different places. But w- we, we had, like, this shared moment. For me, it was the, you know, the moment with the choosing to not dissect.
Right before we let you go, Neha, what was your aha moment? Like, either e- n- I'm not even necessarily talking about your go vegan story, but, like, the moment you realized that animals matter.
Neha Nataraj: Oh my God. I never had an aha moment. I've been like that since I was a baby. I would, like, pick up ants and move them off the sidewalk and, like, just, like, feed the chipmunk in my backyard for an entire summer, like, in elementary school. Like, I was, I was a big animal lover all throughout. And I, like, I had my first research experience, um, after...
So ninth grade, I took AP bio and I loved it. I was like, "Biology is my thing." You know, I come from a family of engineers, and I'm like, "Math, blah, blah, blah. Like, biology, it's so cool. How do bodies work?" You know?
Mariann Sullivan: What a rebel. what a rebel.
Neha Nataraj: A rebel, I know, right? Um, and so I, like, really fell in love with biology. And, you know, my dad- and I'm really privileged, my dad's a professor of engineering at, uh, Villanova University, which is here in the Philadelphia area.
And, um, you know, he was able to talk to a colleague, uh, who studies biology. Um, and I was able to do, like, a internship, research internship that summer, uh, after ninth grade, which is, like, pretty early exposure, um, when it comes to, like, science research. Um, and, uh, that was, I think, like, a little traumatic for me as well, even...
I learned a lot, but it was also a little traumatic because I was, um, using cells from a mouse. And so I was working with a grad student who was, using, like, one cell type from them, and he-- Basically, he, he was gonna use the mice anyway, and then I was using some other cell type from the same mice.
Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.
Neha Nataraj: But I remember being, like, kind of uncomfortable with that, but then, like, not really voicing it.
And then one day, I, like, saw the mouse in the cage before he, like... I think he had, like, run to the bathroom. He wasn't there. But I saw the mouse in the cage, and I just, like, didn't know what to do. And I was like, "Should I just let it out?" You know? Like, I had a moment where I was like, "What do I do? I don't want this mouse to die."
Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.
Neha Nataraj: And I, like, kind of had a bit of, like, a meltdown without... Like, not an external meltdown, an internal one. And I wrote myself a huge email about, like, what am I doing with my life. This is, like, the summer before 10th grade, okay? Um, but I, I sent it to myself. So I can, like, go back in my emails and find it.
Jasmin Singer: Wow. Oh my God, I'm getting chills. That's
Neha Nataraj: Yeah. And then yet I, like, went on to, like, you know, major in biology and then, And when I did research in college, it was, you know, in human cells. But then, you know, my, my, my PhD's in immunology, which is a heavily, like, mouse model field. Um, and I'm surrounded by mouse work, and I was able to find a project in a lab where they use a lot of human systems.
Um, but yeah, I, I don't know why I stuck to it because you'd think that would've turned me off enough to be like, "I'm never going near this field."
Jasmin Singer: But that's the thing.
Neha Nataraj: like science,
Jasmin Singer: Exactly. I mean, like kind of ...I know that my example was totally different than that, and I was 10, but I ate animals for another eight years. Like I it, these are s- it's important to remember that we have these moments of like, you know, uh, checkpoints where we're checking our, our own selves and, and, and the fact that you even wrote that to yourself, like
Neha Nataraj: Yeah
Jasmin Singer: what a, what a gift that little Neha. gave you.
Neha Nataraj: Little Neha. Ugh.
Jasmin Singer: I, wanna hug her. I, just wanna be like, "It's okay, honey"
Neha Nataraj: I like get teary when I see that. I wanna go back and hug little Neha too. I have to say, I also had a dissection experience that I abstained from
Jasmin Singer: Oh yeah?
Neha Nataraj: they made me do like a virtual thing instead. And I was like, "Why can't everyone
Jasmin Singer: Vir- well, when I was a kid, virtual things didn't really exist, but,
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. me
Jasmin Singer: but like that is really great to know. I mean, Yeah. like if there's a virtual opportunity, why, why? Like, why not? Anyway,
Neha Nataraj: Yeah, I agree. Bef- w- before we end, I do want to just mention two things.
Jasmin Singer: Sure
Neha Nataraj: One is that I just wanna highlight PCRM. I think they really do amazing work, and one of the speakers was talking about how they, um, you know, talking about how they advocate at, you know, the federal level, um, and they, uh, push for, um, like Congress to support and back legislation for funding, um, through agencies to implement programs.
And, and one of the permanent FDA programs called I-STAND, like is in place because of PCRM. Um, and they allocate like, like lots of funding for NAMs, um, and reducing animal testing. Um, and so the-- like they're really like a huge change maker. So I just wanted to really highlight that. I think PCRM is amazing.
Another thing I just wanted to quickly mention is that I unfortunately wasn't able to attend, um, this thing that they had, but it was a featured documentary screening, I think it was like the second screening, um, of a brand-new documentary, um, by, uh, the director and producer Steven Latham?
Latham? I, I don't know how to pronounce... I'm sorry, Steven Latham. Um, but it's called "The New Gold Standard." It's about cutting-edge science that's replacing animal testing. I think
it'll be out in the fall on,
Jasmin Singer: Oh
Neha Nataraj: on PBS or somewhere. So just keep your eyes open, um, for that. I'm sure it'll be
Mariann Sullivan: That's great.
Neha Nataraj: people really enjoyed it. So,
Jasmin Singer: yeah.
Yeah
Mariann Sullivan: up. I also have a few announcements. Is it okay if I do them now? Because I want to get them-- in before we, uh, close
Jasmin Singer: I want you to get them
to get them in, but first I want to thank Neha Nataraj for these insights and, you know, I hope that you, a-as your, as your career progresses and as these alternatives to animal testing progress as well, I hope that you come back and keep us posted because you are a very special brain and a very special human, and we're really grateful that you're in the flock and that you're, and that you're our friend.
So thank you for spending the time with us today. Don't go anywhere because we have to-- you have to sit through these announcements and look interested. But I just wanted to say thank you.
Neha Nataraj: I'm always interested, yes. Thank you so much for having me. This was really great. I'm so happy to share.
Mariann Sullivan: It was a pleasure
Neha Nataraj: spoke to some PCRM people. They were like, "Oh my God, send us the, the episode,"
'cause they
Jasmin Singer: Oh, good. Will do.
Neha Nataraj: At PCRM,
Jasmin Singer: Amazing. We love them too. We love them too. All right, Mariann, bring us on home.
Mariann Sullivan: Oh my two announcements. One is from, also from a Flock member, Daniel, and he mentioned that a recent issue of Current Affairs is completely devoted to animal issues. I have not yet read the articles, but they look fascinating. It's available online for free, and we'll put that link in the show notes. Uh, lots of good articles by really good people.
Um, and the other is about our Flock bonus, um, for this week. We're really excited to offer Flock members a reading by Sangu Iyer from her new book, "Governing Bodies." It's a memoir about her own journey as well as her family's, and it's described in a recent interview in the LA Times and which really emphasizes it's not all about animals, but animals are a very important part of, of Sangu's life and her family.
So, uh, this is, this is what-- an excerpt from the LA Times interview. "In Governing Bodies, Iyer traces her family lineage of nonviolence, traveling to Burma, where her grandfather was so moved by hearing Gandhi speak of self-reliance as a form of resistance to colonial rule that he quit his stable job as an engineer for the British to live by Gandhi's moral precepts.
He moves his family to the countryside where they built a spartan ashram as their home and planted lush groves of fruit trees. Iyer's father later immigrated to the United States and passed on to his daughter his reverence for animals and the natural world. After his unexpected death, Iyer considers how she can live by the principles of truth and nonviolence she has made her own."
Jasmin Singer: Oh
Mariann Sullivan: Sangu, of course, is also an engineer and, and she's a beautiful, beautiful writer. She's written, she's written pieces for us as well. I think I've mentioned that before.
Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.
Mariann Sullivan: so, Flock members
Jasmin Singer: Phenomenal. That's so cool. Um, okay, Neha, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but do you listen to the bonus content? It's okay if the answer is no. This is a safe space.
Neha Nataraj: I always intend to...
Jasmin Singer: fine.
Neha Nataraj: intend to.
Jasmin Singer: That's fine. Intend,
Neha Nataraj: doesn't happen.
Jasmin Singer: Okay. I I'm always you know, we, we have a hard time tracking who listens because of the way it, the infor- the information is disseminated.
Neha Nataraj: Yeah
Jasmin Singer: it doesn't go to. like a podcatcher analytic. So I was just-- just curious. That's fine. There's no wrong or right answer. I'm just saying if you do. wanna start, this would be a good week to start. Mariann, continue. Okay.
Mariann Sullivan: Yes, it, it would be because, uh, Sangu is amazing. She's a dear old friend and I mean, she's not old, but you know, we've known her a long time.
Jasmin Singer: She's probably a little old now 'cause we're all a little old, like let's be real
Mariann Sullivan: In addition to that, don't forget Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays. This comes out on-- The Hen Report comes out on Thursday, the long form interview on Fridays. This week's long form interview is the Animal Law Podcast, and it's a mind blower. Uh, I have Wayne Hsiung and, and, uh, Steffen Seitz and Chris Carraway, uh, talking about Wayne's conviction in Sonoma County and the recent appellate court decision that reversed it in part, affirmed in part, their plans to try to go to the Supreme Court of California.
It's
Jasmin Singer: Wow.
Mariann Sullivan: Absolutely fascinating.
Jasmin Singer: Amazing
Mariann Sullivan: Um, so, uh, be there or be square. I said that the last time, too. That's
Jasmin Singer: Be there or be square.
Mariann Sullivan: square.
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