The Hen Report: “Animal Activism Matters” | Vegan News, Animal Welfare & Factory Farming Updates

This week, Jasmin and Mariann dig into a wave of encouraging news for the plant-based movement alongside a sobering look at threats to wildlife protections. They cover new data showing plant-based sales climbing across Europe as prices and taste improve, the FDA’s struggle to define “ultra-processed foods” (and its decision not to ban them), a lawsuit challenging the Trump administration’s rollback of Endangered Species Act protections, and the surprisingly bipartisan momentum behind banning gestation crates. They also explore whether “nudge theory” is really enough to drive lasting dietary change, how Denmark’s landmark pig-farming reforms could offer lessons for U.S. advocacy, and a win for ethical vegans’ legal rights in Europe.

• Plant-based sales are rising across Europe as price gaps close and product taste and affordability improve, according to Good Food Institute data
• The FDA says defining “ultra-processed foods” is “challenging” and won’t be banning them, easing fears about a broad crackdown on plant-based products
• Environmental groups are suing to block a Trump administration rule change that weakens Endangered Species Act habitat protections
• The fight over pig gestation crates is uniting voices across the political spectrum, from conservative commentators to progressive lawmakers
• Denmark’s push to reform its massive pig farming industry offers a case study in using animal-welfare messaging to move public opinion

RESOURCES

• • • • • Plant-based price gap closes in Europe, driving sales
        • FDA Admits Defining Ultra-Processed Foods is ‘Challenging’, Says It Won’t Ban Them
        • Environmental groups sue government to stop a big change to the Endangered Species Act
        • The unlikely cause bringing liberals and conservatives together
        • Are Nudges Toward Plant-Based Foods a Cheap Shortcut to Dietary Change?
        • How Denmark’s ‘Pig Election’ Rewrote Factory Farm Politics
        • European Court Confirms Ethical Veganism Is a Protected Philosophical Belief in Europe
        • Jordi Casamitjana on Our Hen House
  •  

    INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

    Jasmin Singer: Welcome to The Hen Report from Our Hen House. I'm Jasmin Singer.

    Mariann Sullivan: And I'm Mariann Sullivan.

    Show More Transcript

    Jasmin Singer: And just a quick reminder about the Our Hen House podcasts. As you might know, Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report, which is this, on Thursdays, happy Thursday, and the long form interview on Fridays. Bonus content for flock members comes out on Mondays, and the bonus content is very frequently fabulous, so join us. And, uh, yeah, we're a podcast, we're on YouTube, we've been here for a really long frigging time, and if you're new, welcome. If you're old, welcome. If you're somewhere in between, welcome.

    So much to discuss this week, and I like that a lot of it is positive.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. We did find some positive stuff. Sometimes it's a stretch. Not all of it.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah. You know, I keep, uh, I keep seeing all of this, all of this about, you know, just kind of when, when vegans were really on top, like in the tw- 2019, 2020, that there were all of these signs that, you know, 600%

    Mariann Sullivan: We were trending

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, 600% more people were googling veganism, like around 2019, I think, is when the Beyond Meat, uh, IPO boomed and, uh, and I just keep reading about how that was the past and this and that, and now it's, you know, now it's, it's back to slightly pathetic.

    They don't word it that way. But you found an article that begs to differ. Maybe things are turning.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Well, this is actually from Europe, and I, I, I admit I, I stole this from... Well, not exactly stole 'cause he doesn't exactly own it, but I watched Chris Bryant's YouTube and, uh, this is where I found this article and the next article, both of which are positive. This one is about Europe and the title is Plant-Based Price Gap Closes in Europe, Driving Sales.

    So this is mostly about data that was gathered by the Good Food Institute, and it's not just that, that the price gap is closing. It's not even there yet. It's not price parity yet. But the, the driving sales is the important part that, you know, things are perking up. We went through a real dip. The industry fought us hard.

    You know, we were trend-- Like, we were a trend for a lot of people, and trends don't last. But th- uh, you know, uh, it- things are, things are turning around. So they gathered data from six countries: France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain, and the UK. Did you say something?

    Jasmin Singer: I said the pendulum swings back. It always does.

    Mariann Sullivan: You're right. You're right. And, uh, it shows that these price gaps have narrowed, and that sales volume has, has, um, has increased as, quote, "Products begin to meet consumer expectations." Yeah, I mean, I think that's the other piece of this is the products are getting better. And, you know, this is, uh... It's interesting 'cause this is the, the meat analogues.

    You know, a lot of people were saying, oh, the meat analogues, they were... because of, you know, the troubles that Beyond Meat has been having and Impossible has been having, that that wasn't the way to go. And, uh, apparently it is the way to go because it's going pretty well. The meat... The, the milk too, um, of course is, you know, really the, the, the main driver.

    Well, not the main driver of the increase, but the... It's the plant-based food that has most taken, uh, the world by storm. So sales volumes were up in France by 13%. That's pretty unbelievable. And, um, Spain 6.6%, et cetera, et cetera. And, uh, they did an analysis of all of the data, and it showed that growth is being driven by improvements in affordability and taste, which is exactly GFI's point, you know?

    Like, uh, you make it taste good, you, you get price parity, and, uh, and make it available, and, you know, it's gonna be fine. It, it... They actually have found that tofu, tempeh, and seitan has grown in popularity, just not nearly as much as the meat analogues. And, um, but that also takes care of the people who were, like, freaked out by the whole processed food, um, thing, uh, 'cause tofu, tempeh, and seitan are minimally processed, I think even by their ridiculous standards.

    Jasmin Singer: I have a question regarding tofu, tempeh, and seitan. In order, rank for me which ones you personally buy.

    Mariann Sullivan: Oh, tofu,

    Jasmin Singer: And

    then

    Mariann Sullivan: is so far ahead. And, um, uh, tempeh is next, but that's because I don't know how to buy seitan. Like, I don't know. It, uh, I, I... It comes in just in little packages, and it's, uh... Like, I, I don't buy seitan. I have it when I'm out, but I don't buy it, and that's not for any good reason 'cause I really like seitan.

    I've... Tempeh is, um, is a challenge because I think you have to be kind of a good cook to, to make tempeh well.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah

    Mariann Sullivan: You can't... Like tofu, you can just cut it up, put it in the air fryer, and it's delicious. You know, put some sauce on it, and it's delicious. But tempeh, you know, it's this weird texture. It has to be babied to be really good.

    Do you remember that temp- when we made that tempeh when we lived in Portland?

    Jasmin Singer: I do. That was really good,

    Mariann Sullivan: It was the best tempeh I've ever had.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I do remember that, and that was so good. I'm not-- Like, I'm just not a big tempeh person, but I was... When I was in New York

    Mariann Sullivan: It's really good for you.

    Jasmin Singer: When I was in New York City a few weeks ago and I went to Marissa Miller Wolfson's house, she made me tempeh bacon, and it was amazing. So, uh, I... Yeah,

    Mariann Sullivan: Have to go down to New York

    Jasmin Singer: it, so I, I might rethink that. But I'm also a big tofu person, and said you just cook it up. You know you could also microwave it, right? You can microwave tofu.

    Mariann Sullivan: Uh, I don't, I guess I, I mean, I've d- made to- I have tofu a lot, and I, I've made it in every possible way, but I usually air fry it. Though I, I will also, um, steam it.

    Like, I'll steam vegetables and tofu together. I don't usually put it in the microwave, but certainly I have. I've done everything with it.

    Jasmin Singer: I don't put it in the microwave, like, by itself, but if I'm, like, if I'm making a soup or something that all, all you have to do is heat it up or s- or something like that, I might cut up tofu and throw it in and then microwave it as part of it. It's always good. I mean,

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah

    Jasmin Singer: it is really good.

    But you just mentioned the, uh, like, processed foods and, and this, this next article that you found also by way

    Mariann Sullivan: Also, Chris Bryant found it.

    Jasmin Singer: Thank you, Chris Bryant, uh, which is from Green Queen, and it's, it's about how the Trump administration is finding it difficult to land on a standardized definition of ultraprocessed food accord- this is according to the FDA's acting deputy chief, and he reiterated that the agency therefore doesn't plan to ban these products, and that's great because that was...

    Mariann Sullivan: This whole thing has been such a fiasco.

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah

    Mariann Sullivan: This article is by Anay Mridul, and yeah, it's entitled, "FDA Admits Defining Ultra-Processed Foods is," quote, "'challenging.' Says it won't ban them." I mean, I don't know whether defining them is actually challenging or whether they just screwed up the definition so much that, uh, that, that it's challenging to understand what they were talking about.

    And, um, so they wanna have a standardized definition, and they've realized that... You know, because ultra-processed foods, like actual ultra-processed foods, all the stuff that, uh, was formerly known as junk food, that is bad for you. Except that their definition that they put in, like, brought in all these foods that there's no reason to believe are bad for you at all, and that experts all over the place were warning against this idea that they conflated processing with nutrition, which happens when you put an idiot in charge of, um, Health and Human Services.

    Like, that's what happens. Like, there's processing and there's process- I mean, cooking is processing. Like, there's lots of processing that's a very, that's totally fine.

    Jasmin Singer: Lesbians process all the time, for example. It's totally fine, although I will say my wife would probably wanna ban that type of processing.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Well, me too. Um, so, so ultraprocessed foods i- is like they, they... is made up of, um, industrial formulations and techniques and, and, and sort of f- it, it's kind... Actual ultraprocessed foods are foods that you can't, um, uh, that, that are basically junk food. But, but defining them as foods that you just can't make in your home kitchen or that have to be... that doesn't make them bad for you. It's just way, as this article says, too broad a brush to paint food with.

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: And, and, um, so this total lack of consistency has been a disaster. It's been a disaster for the plant-based food movement, which I think may have been the whole reason for it, but, you know, call me paranoid. I am.

    Jasmin Singer: No, I, I, that was my first thought too. I mean, they'll, they'll do anything.

    Mariann Sullivan: too

    Jasmin Singer: Well, I think that I'm, you know, I realize that I'm a pessimist, but I would call myself a realist first before I call myself that. I think that I have a very grounded way of looking at things and,

    Mariann Sullivan: Well, good for you.

    Jasmin Singer: I'm really just extraordinary.

    Like, the way my brain

    Mariann Sullivan: Seriously.

    Jasmin Singer: It's phenomenal. yeah. Well, this is good news. And, and,

    Mariann Sullivan: And, uh, the article points out that some plant-based alternatives to meat and milk offer protein with more fiber and less saturated fat than animals. And as I've always said, I'm gonna say it again, someday I'm gonna get credit-- somebody else is gonna say this and I'm gonna get credit for it, that, that meat, milk, and eggs is just, uh, f- perfectly good grains and greens and, and plant, other plant foods processed through the body of an animal to add saturated fat and cholesterol.

    It's all it is. It's totally processed food.

    Jasmin Singer: Yep

    Mariann Sullivan: But RFK Jr. himself has described ultraprocessed foods as, quote, "poison." That's how we got in this whole stupid thing, because he doesn't know what he's talking about, or he does and he's evil, or both.

    Jasmin Singer: You're not gonna get credit for that, by the way. Some white man is.

    Mariann Sullivan: No, I, I know I'm not. I'm not.

    Jasmin Singer: Although, you know, I have, I have been in situations lately, like more and more, where an idea... And I know you've been dealing with this forever, but like an idea that maybe stemmed from me kind of goes through the rigmarole, and then someone else is like, "I have an idea," and it's the idea I started with.

    And I have gotten to the point where I'm like, "Cool, that's fine." Like I'm not, I'm not gonna die on this hill.

    Mariann Sullivan: I am too. It's like I, you don't know whether you were the starting point 'cause, you know, other people come up with good ideas too. And even if you were, it's, it's kind of like your whole theory of what the hell if all my, um, writing goes into, um, AI?

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

    Mariann Sullivan: 'Cause then it's out there and, you know, people will maybe, maybe somebody will learn something like.

    Jasmin Singer: I also just think that there's no such thing as a new idea ever. But, uh, you know, it's...

    Mariann Sullivan: oh, that's, that's, that's a new idea to me.

    Jasmin Singer: Let me, let me just, let me caveat that. Uh, so

    Mariann Sullivan: Please do. Please do. I think it uses some caveats.

    Jasmin Singer: Okay, our long form interview this week is Joanne Molinaro. It's coming out tomorrow. And she is, of course the Korean vegan and I love her. I loved this interview.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, she is great

    Jasmin Singer: Just truly phenomenal and, uh, and, and I don't remember if it was for the main interview or for bonus, but you were basically like, "How did you break through in this extraordinary successful way?" And she said, she said it was luck and like right place, right time. And we corrected her and was like, "There's quite a lot of skill as well, Joanne."

    Mariann Sullivan: Right. But it is true that there are other really good vegan cookbooks, and hers just went mainstream.

    Jasmin Singer: And I,

    Mariann Sullivan: so some luck was involved, though it also had to be a really fabulous book to grab hold of that luck

    Jasmin Singer: And I just-- So, so to the point of there's no new ideas, I do think that like the, sometimes the people whose ideas, know, wind up sticking, there is a degree of luck. My first book came out because of luck and, you know, which

    Mariann Sullivan: Oh, luck is always involved.

    Jasmin Singer: But i'm sure lots of

    Mariann Sullivan: Frequently white people just happen to get more luck than, than others.

    Jasmin Singer: Right. Although Joanne's not white, but, um, but yes, in

    Mariann Sullivan: I know, I was talking more generally, not about Joanne.

    Jasmin Singer: No, Moore and I, Moore and I, my wife and I say, uh, whenever we say we're g- we jokingly say, "Let's manifest it," and that's, like, our code for white privilege. Like, it's just a very fun... It's very funny in our house when, like, we're watching TV and someone says, "And then I manifested that," and, and they're a white person.

    "Uh-huh, you

    Mariann Sullivan: Well, what are you watching?

    Jasmin Singer: I watch terrible TV. Like, terrible, like, reality shows and, like, um, and, and, and, and books. I, you know, I, I do listen to s- some smart books, but I also listen to total junk, like the junk food version of books. I, I'm-- I started listening to a book about a bunch of 50-year-olds who went on a cruise that was being, uh, headlined by a boy band that they were into when they were, like, 10. And, or, and I was like, "This is literally my l- my era." Like, I was into New Kids on the Block when I was, you know, young. And, and so the author, Emma Straub, apparently did research for this book by going on a cruise that the New Kids on the Block were headlining. I, I think, I think I would love that. Anyway, the point is I watch junk. All right. Uh, the point is...

    Mariann Sullivan: it was a really long journey to get to that point.

    Jasmin Singer: Every time I go on a little journey, I, I think of our, uh, flock member/recent guest Neha because she w- we-- she came through, she's a scientist and she, she came through Rochester and we had, we had a, a dinner with her and her partner, and she kind of like pulled me aside and was like, "I love it when you go on tangents. I don't care what anybody says."

    Mariann Sullivan: Oh, God.

    Jasmin Singer: Every time I go on a tangent, I'm like, "Neha, this is for you."

    Mariann Sullivan: Alright, folks, don't blame me. Blame Neha.

    Jasmin Singer: So let's, let's move on. Speaking of the Trump administration, which we were just speaking of, I know this is kind of a big story, but, uh...

    Mariann Sullivan: This is a huge story.

    Huge

    Jasmin Singer: As reported by NPR although, it's reported everywhere, i- there-- environmental groups sue government to stop a big change to the Endangered Species Act, and this is basically saying that by altering the interpretation of one word in the Endangered Species Act, the Trump administration has made what could be a sweeping change to how wildlife is protected in the United States.

    Why don't you walk us through that?

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, that is, that is to say the least. And, uh, as this, uh, th- this is, this is unbelievable. I mean, they- industry has been trying to change this for 50 years, and they have failed. They've gone to the Supreme Court, they've failed. But now, um, now that, uh, the US Fish and Wildlife Service is on their side, s- we- th- this is very bad.

    The Endangered Species Act makes it illegal to take a member of an endangered species.

    Now, you may wonder what take means, but the, uh, statute actually defines what ta- what they mean by take, and it says, "To harass, harm, pursue, hunt, shoot, wound, kill, tra- trap, capture, or collect, or attempt to engage in any such conduct." The big word in there is harm. That's the most general word, and the Fish and Wildlife Service, as, as happens with the federal statutes, the... Congress passes the statute, and then the Fish and Wildlife Service offers additional interpretations and regulations of what it all means.

    And they define the terms, um, the term harm, uh, to include "Significant habitat modification or degradation that kills or injures wildlife." All right, I know I'm speaking in, like, legal terms, but what this basically means is that this is the whole Endangered Species Act. This is the, this is the s- this is how it works.

    Like, it's not just whether you go out and shoot an eagle, it's whether you destroy the habitat that the the, the eagle has to have in order to live. And there are loads of people out there, like mining companies and, and people who want to build mini malls and put up, uh, put up... I mean, gazillions of people making money, people who wanna, uh, graze their cattle, who want to do things that will degrade lands that, that endangered species need in order to, uh, continue to breed and, and live and, and survive.

    And, and, and they've just taken, um, they've... The Fish and Wildlife Service has just changed their regulation to remove that from the definition. So now all it means is, like, if you go out and shoot an endangered species or something along those lines, not if you destroy their home, as if that doesn't harm them.

    And this is, like, virtually every case under the Endangered Species Act is about harming, um, them through, through ruining their habitat, and it, it's, it's a d- it's a disaster of monumental proportions. But because it gets kind of legally and because it's about wild animals, I don't think that many people are really paying attention except people who are in this world and who really care about this stuff.

    But this is a disaster. I mean, there is a lawsuit. There's a lawsuit going on, so, you know, uh, this is due to go into, um, effect in September. I don't know what's gonna happen. I mean, the courts, you know, the courts have been holding this country together w- with a little thread and, um, Scotch tape. Uh, and, and I hope they're gonna do it here because the amount of harm that they're already doing, I mean, with, with, like, destroying the national parks and, and, like, giving away all this land and it's just...

    This is not stuff that can be fixed once they're gone, and they're gonna be gone, but it's gonna be done, and they know that, and they're making money hand over fist.

    Jasmin Singer: So what is your projection for how this will go?

    Mariann Sullivan: I don't know. I don't,

    Jasmin Singer: You don't,

    Mariann Sullivan: I don't indulge in that sort of thing. It depends. It just depends. But, you know, it'll go to the courts hopefu- it depends a lot on who gets the case. But, but, uh, they tried it once before, but, you know, that was a different, um, that was a different situation. It wasn't the same legal situation.

    But they've been trying to get rid of this constantly since the beginning of time, and it's, it's very bad. And I don't know what... Depends on who gets the case first, depends on the appeals court, but then after that, it goes to the Supreme Court, you know?

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

    Mariann Sullivan: It's bad.

    Jasmin Singer: Well, hopefully there will be a situation of, as we've been talking about this year at least, strange bedfellows and people who are able to come together on all sides around this issue, because I think that caring about this particular issue and animal issues in general can, as we say, run the gamut of the political spectrum, which is what this next story is about from Vox, as reported by the brilliant Kenny Torella.

    Where would we be without Kenny Torella?

    Mariann Sullivan: I honestly don't know.

    Jasmin Singer: This is about the Save the Bacon Act, and he says it's the unlikely cause bringing liberals and conservatives together. And I find ho- I find a lot of hope in this, in, uh, in, especially in light of the story that we just covered.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I don't know whether there's a divide, um, between Democrats and Republicans or whether they're, you know, on, at all on, on the endangered species issue, 'cause it's not going to Congress, so there's no discussion of that. It's going to the courts. But, uh But, uh, that would be interesting. But yeah. All right, he gives you these four quotes at the beginning of this article, what- telling you about the Save the Bacon Act, um, which I'm sure you're all familiar with.

    You know, they're, they're trying to get rid of, um, uh, California's law that basically bans gestation crates. Um, "This is demonic stuff." "It's downright abusive." "That sounds like torture to me." "It's inhumane. It causes physical problems and psychological anguish." And then he points out the, um, th- these comments were from far-right commentator Mike Cernovich, Fox News host Tomi Lahren, um, eh, Liberal New York Times columnist Nick Kristof, and Representatives Nancy Mace and Veronica Escobar.

    Of course, Nancy Mace is a Republican, Veronica E- and not long for this, not long for this world. I don't mean she's gonna die, I mean she's not gonna be in office anymore. And Veronica Escobar, who's a Democrat of Texas. So, uh, I, I thought that was a great way to start, uh, the article, 'cause it is true, and it's just something that we've always said here, that it's the only bipartisan issue left.

    Like, like, the people on both sides of the aisle are really sympathetic to animals. And, and, uh, it says, "For decades, the meat industry has been able to reliably depend on congressional Republicans going to bat for its interests. But the fight over gestation crates now shows that previously solid support may be crumbling at the edges.

    Taken together, the building opposition to gestation crates demonstrates how animal welfare, often considered a largely liberal concern, has become increasingly bipartisan." And there has, uh, there have always been people on the right, but, you know, it's in ascendancy more now. One of the reasons he points out is that because, um, the industry...

    You know, why the pig industry is, is, is fighting so hard to keep gestation crates is unclear. Uh, eh, you know, a lot of people opine it's just because they're stubborn and they don't wanna be beaten. Because a lot of peop- you know, th- they, they can easily make an enormous amount of money off of these poor creatures without gestation crates.

    But one of the things that they've done, and this is so easy for us to forget, is that they brought the issue... And our, our movement has done an unbelievable job of bringing this issue to the forefront and making it a thing. So the people in Congress became aware of it, and people in Congress don't know what a gestation crate is.

    They had no idea. Like we always-- We're so embedded in this that we think that people understand what's going on. People in Congress don't understand what's going on, and they had no reason to have to. They just were like, "Oh yeah, the pig industry. Good for America." And then they found out what gestation crates are because the pork industry is pushing this so hard and because we're pushing back so hard, and they're like, "Oh my God, this is terrible."

    Just like anybody else would seeing a gestation crate who is not a complete psychopath, and it turns out not everybody in Congress is a complete psychopath, which is, you know, surprising and good news

    Jasmin Singer: Uh, I wonder if they've been nudged toward that because one of the stories we wanted to talk about today is as reported by Sentient Media, in fact we have two Sentient Media stories to cover, is actually about nudge theory. And, you know, I've definitely been called a nudge probably every day of my

    Mariann Sullivan: I don't think that's the same thing.

    Jasmin Singer: It's not the same thing,

    Mariann Sullivan: What is that? Is that a Yiddish expression? You're such a n-

    Jasmin Singer: like it.

    Mariann Sullivan: isn't it? Nudge. You're such a nudge.

    Jasmin Singer: You're such a nudge.

    Mariann Sullivan: I haven't heard of that word in a long time

    Jasmin Singer: W- well, hang out with me and you'll hear it a lot. But this is-- Yeah, you're right. This is a little bit different, but there's a, there's a p- there's an overlap. I think that they are exploring through some various studies and a, and an interview with an expert on this, on nudge theory, whether nudges toward plant-based foods as a cheap shortcut to dietary change is legitimate, and there's conflicting information here.

    Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I mean, nudge theory, of course, has taken this movement by storm and gr- doing amazing work, Greener by Default and, and, um, other organizations. Basically that whole theory of you just put the plant-based option in, in the most available place in the cafeteria or even make it necessary to ask for the, for the animal-based option.

    Um, and, and people will, without thinking about it, they'll just eat it. You know? They'll just choose it and eat it, and it's been very successful in a lot of trials. And this author, um, is Seth Milstein, he's certainly not against that. Um, he's just quoting this guy who did this, um, who did this research on it, Seth Ariel Green.

    He's a research scientist at Stanford University's Humane and Sustainable Food Lab, and he is not against nudge theory, but I really think that, uh, he has some points. I don't know about his research, but, but he thinks they can play a valuable role, but he doesn't think they're a silver bullet. He doesn't think that this is all you have to do, and it's similar to the whole, uh, the whole, you know, GFI, Good Food Institute kind of thing.

    Build... Kind of this build and they will come kind of theory that you just have to manipulate people. And he said, you know, the research is... It- one of the things he points out is that the organizations or cafeterias or whatever that put this into effect were the organizations that were willing to put this into effect, and that skews you right from the start 'cause they're more, they're gonna be more friendly.

    And he also pointed out that it's much more work than, um, than people think it is. It's, it, you know, it's kind of touted as being simple. It's not that simple. It, it's, it's, it's expensive and, and there's a lot of effort in implementing it. And New York City hospitals are famous for having, um, done this really effectively, but he points out that it really required a lot of work.

    And of course, that was the point where Mayor Eric Adams was in office, and of course, his reputation was sullied. We won't go into that, but he was, he was a vegan almost, and he really pushed this, so you know.

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so basically, uh, so basically the upshot is that it can be a valuable way of laying the groundwork for bigger change, but the, the, the real change then happens when you're changing people's minds and

    Mariann Sullivan: I think is, you know, that like there is no silver bullet. I think that's the point, and I think it's very valid. There is still an enormous amount of work to be done. Even when you make the food more available, that doesn't... You know, it, it can play a role, but it's not the only role in this, in this huge theatrical um, endeavor of changing the way people eat.

    And, and, uh this is a quote I, I marked out, "The actual uncomfortable thing I want to confront people with is that we need to convince people of meat's downsides, and that's really hard." And we all know that, and we all want that not to be true, but it's true. Like animal activism matters.

    Jasmin Singer: It matters. Yeah. I, I am sad about the upshot of this story because I, I'm here for the manipulation.

    Mariann Sullivan: Well, but he, he's not saying it doesn't work. He's just saying it's not enough.

    Jasmin Singer: Right. It's just...

    Mariann Sullivan: that, I think that's, it's so true that there's just no one thing. It, it, it involves a whole lot of different efforts. I'm sorry I interrupted you.

    Jasmin Singer: You're right, and that there is hope in that. I'm just like on my more curmudgeonly days, uh, which is a lot of them, I, I just sort of think that most people are not willing to change. And obviously that's not true, because we've interviewed thousands of people, and they've all changed, and we've changed, and people are able to.

    I just like sort of a, a core belief of mine is to not talk to someone assuming that they will change about something, and that is in direct, uh, conflict with my activist self, who's always trying to get people to change their, their minds. And so it's an inner conflict that this article made worse, so thank you for that.

    Mariann Sullivan: Well, on that happy note, let's move on.

    Jasmin Singer: Okay, but Sentient also has this story about Denmark's, quote, pig election. Why don't you

    Mariann Sullivan: Beli- belying what you just said.

    Jasmin Singer: Okay,

    Mariann Sullivan: All right. How Denmark's pig election rewrote factory farm politics: Could animal welfare and clean water motivate American voters? All right, this is, uh, this is by Emily Payne, and I think most people listening to this probably somewhat aware that Denmark has a big pig farming industry, but you might not...

    For such a tiny country, it's unbelievable. Um, it's 6 million people. There's only 6 million people in the whole country, and they produce 28 million pigs per year. It's, uh, it's a huge part of the Danish economy, and, um, astoundingly, the, uh, the, the, the prime minister announced this historic program aimed at shifting the industry away from ultra-intensive, and they are intensive, really intensive confinement, export-driven factory farming, and, um, and there were a lot of issues, the environment and, uh, and, and they didn't wanna be completely dependent on this industry.

    But one of... the quote here, "One of the biggest lessons from Denmark's campaign has little to do with money, politics, or policy. Keep the message focused on the animal." 'Cause they found that the, the best arguments they had was getting people to think about what the animals were going through. This Britta Riis, who's the chief executive officer of Animal Protection Denmark, which basically pulled this off: "We thought we would have to make really complicated arguments. Suddenly it was just about the pig."

    Jasmin Singer: That's good. That's

    Mariann Sullivan: It does point out it was also about water, which is, was a huge issue, and some pollution, but the big thing was the pigs. And, um, they made a hu- Animal Protection Denmark started this process a few years ago, and they made a really big investment in communications and public affairs, um, messaging around the animal welfare issues.

    They got a lot of m- media coverage. Of course, this is a very small country compared to the US, like, so it's a different, different proposition. They did a citi- citizens initiative, um, which triggered a parliamentary debate, so that got it into the newspapers a lot more. Um, by the March election, 53% of polled Danish voters said that animal welfare would definitely influence how they cast their ballots.

    Wow. Yeah, this is really impressive

    Jasmin Singer: I'm going on an emotional journey today, aren't I? 'Cause now

    Mariann Sullivan: Then the, well, the article then does say that whether the same playbook could work in the United States is less certain. I think it's less certain, but I think that there're really important lessons here

    Jasmin Singer: Yeah, especially given, you know, what we were talking about a few minutes ago about how this is reaching people at all ends.

    So

    Mariann Sullivan: Actually, there's a quote here from Liam Gray, who's the founder of the Wilberforce Institute, which is a conservative nonprofit animal advocacy organization, and he pointed out that historically animal welfare has been seen as a left versus right issue, but increasingly in the US it is about people versus special interests, and that, that, that is motivating on both sides of the aisle,

    Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.

    Mariann Sullivan: with some people.

    Jasmin Singer: And while we're overseas, let's stay there for a minute. This is a story that we have covered before. In fact, we interviewed Jordi Casamitjana, uh, uh, from veganFTA.com about this because Jordi was the one that originally got this going. But, uh, European courts have confirmed that ethical veganism is a protected philosophical belief in Europe. And if you want to hear more about that, definitely check out our interview with Jordi. We'll put it in the show notes. And this is good. This is good. Uh, this is a great story, and it's, it's not like a, a huge shift from before, but it, it does strengthen the case that.

    Mariann Sullivan: W- it, it was ba-- I mean, I'm not, I won't spend a lot of time on it. I just think it's really great news. It was basically about prisoners, which frequently these cases about, um, the rights of vegans come up in a situation where the government is controlling what people eat and, and the courts recognize, frequently recognize that you have a fundamental right to be a vegan, um, and the, the government can't be feeding you dead animals, um, if, if, you know, you're in their custody.

    So that is excellent news.

    Jasmin Singer: Excellent news indeed, and I want to end on excellent news. I-- this was, uh, more positive news than not, so great curation. Thank you for that.

    And thank you for those of you who are listening and watching. We hope that you'll stay tuned because tomorrow we have our long form interview with Joanne Molinaro, The Korean Vegan.

    You won't want to miss it. And then on Monday, the bonus content with Joanne is coming out for our Flock. So if you're in the Flock, stay tuned for that. If you're not in the Flock, consider joining us at ourhenhouse.org/support. On Tuesday, Rising Anxieties comes out, and we always love that one. The Hen Report, which is this, comes out on Thursdays.

    So thank you for being with us as we are all working together to try and change the world for animals, and we'll talk to you next time.

    ​

    ⇧ Close Transcript

_____________________________________________

Thank you for listening to the Our Hen House podcast! If you enjoy our podcasts, believe in our mission to effectively mainstream the movement to end the exploitation of animals, find community and solace in our shows and resources, and would like to show your support for vegan indie media, please make a donation today.

Contributions of any amount will go towards our fundraising goal and are hugely appreciated. Our Hen House is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, so it’s tax-deductible. Thank you for helping us create quality content!

Subscribe to our show on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or your favorite podcatcher, and don’t forget to leave a 5-star review!

Check out Our Hen House’s other podcasts: The Animal Law Podcast, The Teaching Jasmin How to Cook Vegan Podcast, and the Antiracism in Animal Advocacy Audio Series.

Follow us on social media! You can find Our Hen House on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, or Bluesky.

The Our Hen House theme song is written and performed by Michael Harren.