The Hen Report: “I Don’t Want To” | Vegan Allies, Factory Farming & Animal Advocacy

This week’s Hen Report dives into what makes an ally “natural” for animal advocacy, questioning whether meat reducers, cruelty-free (but non-vegan) consumers, or regenerative farmers truly share the movement’s goals. Jasmin and Mariann also break down troubling news about organic chicken production, the slow progress of cultivated meat, and the power of language in shifting public perception of animal agriculture.

Are meat reducers and cruelty-free shoppers “natural allies” for animal advocates? Are regenerative farmers?
Investigation reveals Costco’s organic chicken supplier violated animal welfare standards despite “humane” certification
Aleph Farms secures Singapore approval for cultivated beef, targeting a 2027 restaurant launch
New research shows “animal factory” may resonate more powerfully with the public than “factory farm”
Urgent action alerts: support the Captain Paul Watson Foundation’s anti-whaling campaign in Iceland and push the Senate to pass the FDA Modernization Act 3.0

RESOURCES

- INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
  
  Jasmin Singer: Welcome to the Hen Report from Our Hen House. I'm Jasmin Singer.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I'm Mariann Sullivan.
  
  Jasmin Singer: And this is Murray. And he loves me.
  
  Show More Transcript
  
  Just a quick reminder about the Our Hen House podcasts. We are on multiple times a week. Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays. The Hen Report, which is this, comes out on Thursdays.
  
  The long form interview on Fridays, and bonus content for flock members comes out on Mondays. Find us on YouTube. Find us on the podcatchers. Find us walking around Rochester, New York. Hit subscribe.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: But not next week. Maybe walking around Rochester. That's the big announcement. We have no episodes next week. It's the first time we've ever done this. I feel so indulgent, like skipping an entire week.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah. No, me too. I don't know what will become of us next week.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: What'll we talk about? Will we just, like, podcast to each other?
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah, let's do that.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: All right. All right.
  
  Jasmin Singer: We'll just be like, "I just had coffee. What about you?" Uh, I don't know.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: That's kind of what we do on the podcast, but let's do something more intelligent than that
  
  Jasmin Singer: Okay. So, speaking of more intelligent than that, this is not. But, uh, I had this little thought and I, I wanted to tell y- I wanted to run it by you. Um, okay, so th-this theater company that I've done a couple plays with has an annual picnic. They're a nonprofit, and so it's like a little fundraiser, friendraiser thing, and I haven't gone before.
  
  And a friend of mine who's also involved with the theater company mentioned it and asked if I was going, and I said, uh, "I don't-- no, I don't think so." And I was thinking about why I'm not going, and it, it's, it's because I don't want to be around people who I like eating animal products. I just don't feel like putting myself in that position.
  
  And then I was thinking, well, I bet a lot of people, including our listeners, would go and would bring something, uh, fabulous and would, you know,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: You
  
  Jasmin Singer: be- make it vegan activism.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: people than you are. That's fine
  
  Jasmin Singer: I know. And, and, and I was thinking about if I would be honest with my friend and tell her why I wasn't going, and, like, would that make me look nuts if I said, "I don't wanna go because I don't wanna be around people eating animal products"? And, and then I thought, well, I could go. I've certainly gone to things like that hundreds or thousands of times in my, you know, vegan, uh, in, in my vegan tenure. And, and then I thought, well, but I'd be uncomfortable. And, and then I thought, I guess I've been uncomfortable every time I've gone. Then I thought, this is like masking.
  
  And you know, the word masking is n- I, I don't hear it used in this way, and this is why I wanted to bring
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I only hear it used of like putting on masks, like during COVID.
  
  Jasmin Singer: N- No. Like, like people who are neurodivergent, for example, have to kind of push away their i- you know, their quirks or their, their instincts in order to acclimate or assimilate, I should say, to society. It's called masking.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Not everyone does that?
  
  Jasmin Singer: I, I think that they more or less do, but there's,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Just more, more
  
  Jasmin Singer: it now. There, there's a word for it now which is masking, which is basically like acting as if you didn't have whatever, you know,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Alright, whatever
  
  Jasmin Singer: have. And, uh, I th- I thought of the word masking being used in this, in this situation, and I don't know why this felt revelatory to me, but sometimes assigning a word to something that you do regularly feels somehow
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I agree.
  
  Jasmin Singer: like the pieces
  
  Mariann Sullivan: It gives you clarity
  
  Jasmin Singer: in- fall into place.
  
  Yeah, and, and as soon as I started to think of it as masking, I felt very validated in not going. Does that resonate with you?
  
  Mariann Sullivan: You felt validated in not going because you don't wanna go there and have to mask?
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I would feel validated in not going just 'cause I wouldn't wanna go. I mean, I don't really need...
  
  Jasmin Singer: go
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I don't really...
  
  Jasmin Singer: people
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I don't think, I mean, yes, it's an activism opportunity, but we don't have to grab every single annoying activism opportunity.
  
  Um, you know, I, I don't think anybody's obligated to do that. It wouldn't be like some really, really powerful opportunity. If you were there, yeah, and yes, you could probably say something, which... But, you know, I think you sh- you should go if you wanna go, or you shouldn't go if you don't wanna go. That's really
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: And I would not want to go because I don't want to go to anything.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I just wanted to, uh, I just wanted to bring it up within the
  
  Mariann Sullivan: No, I like it.
  
  Jasmin Singer: case, in case it
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I like the use of the word, yeah.
  
  Jasmin Singer: So my dog Murray is on my lap right now, and he's like groaning a little, and I think it's possible that the mic will pick it up, and I also think it's possible that the mic will pick up the buzzing of the fly that is for some reason in my office right now.
  
  So I just wanted listeners to know if
  
  Mariann Sullivan: We're prepared. All right?
  
  Jasmin Singer: not my tummy. Okay. we wanted to chat about this discussion that has been kind of floating around various animal advocacy circles lately, and I don't... I, I guess the way to couch it is as animal activists, as animal protection advocates, who are our natural allies, if any? And this is something that we do get into tomorrow in our full interview with Björn Ólafsson.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Which is such a great interview, and we get into it in a, with a lot of nuance. I mean, he's really good on this topic.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah, really good. So I don't wanna like belabor the point 'cause I want people to really listen to that, but since our discussion with Bjorn, w- you and I have chatted a little bit more about it 'cause it's a fascinating subject, and it might be an evolving subject.
  
  Like, maybe the natural allies shift as, as culture shifts and as movements shift. And, and one thing that Bjorn brought up was that, uh, natural allies might be folks who purchase only cruelty-free vegan cosmetics, and of
  
  Mariann Sullivan: But who are not vegan yet
  
  Jasmin Singer: who are not vegan yet. And I've, I noticed, I've been watching this YouTube video, this YouTube s- uh, series. The person who runs it, her, her handle is The Practical Mom, which I know sounds like, why am I watching that? But she's like so brilliant about the way she looks at
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Alright.
  
  Jasmin Singer: just...
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Sounds bad.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I know. I know, but it's not. It's really, really insightful about just like, uh, consumerism. It's been very inspiring to me.
  
  I'm basically decluttering everything in my house. Um, so in one of her decluttering videos, she opened her bathroom drawer and I was like, "Uh, that's literally my bathroom drawer." Every single brand was the same. Every single brand. It was very clear that she went out of her way to get cruelty-free. And so would she-- She's not vegan. Would she be a natural ally? Yes.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. I don't know whether... I mean, cruelty-free has become so common. I'm not sure you have to make a huge effort to make sure that you're cruelty-free. I mean, if you're buying like any kind of like natural-oriented products, they're probably gonna be
  
  Jasmin Singer: reason-- the reason I thought that was 'cause at first I saw Ilia, which is an expensive brand, and then I saw Physicians Formula, which is a cheap brand, and I just thought, "Oh, okay, well,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Well,
  
  Jasmin Singer: the,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: okay. Okay. We don't have to belabor it. Yeah
  
  Jasmin Singer: Regardless, I don't-- I, I do hear a lot of, uh, you know, to use a word that I hate, discourse, I hate that word, around animal protection circles regarding some of our natural allies, and I'm disagreeing with a lot of what I'm hearing.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I don't, I actually, I'm the one who wrote, who jotted the term natural allies down, and, uh, I'm not sure we have any. We, we kind of have to force, force, uh, people into being our allies. But, but I,
  
  Jasmin Singer: Unnatural
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I'm being too strict because an ally, you know, I mean, they're, you know, strange bedfellows kind of thing.
  
  We're, we're allies on one thing and not on another, and, and that can happen, um, and I think does happen. So I'm sorry. What, what else were your thoughts?
  
  Jasmin Singer: Unnatural allies, I guess, is,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, or
  
  Jasmin Singer: what
  
  Mariann Sullivan: specific, allies on specific topics
  
  Jasmin Singer: Well, okay, so, um, obviously when I think of allies, the first thing I think of is like allies to like the gay, gay stuff. Gay stuff. And, you know, like if you see a
  
  Mariann Sullivan: That's totally different.
  
  Jasmin Singer: an al- I know,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: It's totally different
  
  Jasmin Singer: I'm thinking. So my friend who, uh, my, my friend who I just mentioned is gonna be going to the picnic, loves making vegan food for me, and has also herself been eating a lot of vegan food. Her and her husband made me this huge, uh, spread from The Korean Vegan a few months ago.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Oh my God.
  
  Jasmin Singer: going, that's going above and
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I wanna be friends with them
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah, well, y- yeah. I- I mean, you kind of... It's Trish. You're kind of f- You're acquaintances. You have to
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I haven't gotten any food yet, so.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Well, the night's still young. Anyhow, uh, so she's an ally. She's a natural ally, right? Like she would basically be doing the equivalent of the rainbow flag by being like, "Here's some Korean vegan food." But is...
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I think that-- Well, not to give away the interview or anything because it does go a lot deeper than this, but, you know, that kind of reiterates what, what Bjorn said, that meat reducers, I mean, meat reducers are... 'Cause we, we wanna broaden the tent. We wanna have more people, and we wanna make them feel like they're on our side and, um, and I am quoting from Bjorn.
  
  So, uh, so meat reducers definitely. They're not like we don't agree with them about everything, but it, it's a really helpful direction for people to be going in, that we like that.
  
  Jasmin Singer: We like that. I like the meat reducer idea a lot, and, uh, Björn said that he's going to be doing some more posts about it and some more research about it. But I'm not such a big fan of, you know, uh, clinking glasses with, uh, regenerative farmers or,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Humane, quote unquote humane.
  
  And I know this i- this is, like, not a new topic. It's just sort of, like, s- a word ch- a word or two changes, but it's the same kind of topic we've been circling around for forever really.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: the first podcast, I think
  
  Jasmin Singer: I think so too, and, and yet we keep circling around it. We keep discussing it. And that to me is sort of proof that they're not natural allies.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: But I wanna make clear that the reason I think that they're not natural allies isn't because I disapprove of what they're doing. I do disapprove of what they're doing, but you can have allies. Well, you know, I d- I don't approve of the fact that meat reducers are still eating some meat, you know? Th- that- that's not the issue.
  
  It's, it's the whole direction of, of their efforts are towards, towards farming animals in a completely non-scalable way. We're never going to replace factory farming with, quote-unquote, "humane agriculture." That's just nonsense. It, it makes no sense. The-- It would make it very expensive, and it would take up all the land we have.
  
  So that's just never going to happen. So what is their goal? Their goal, I guess, is to market to rich people. Um, and I, I don't know whether...
  
  Jasmin Singer: okay. I know
  
  Mariann Sullivan: They're not doing anything to get rid of factory farming. They're just, you know, going in a different direction, which is better, but, but it's not really heading towards anything that's helpful.
  
  Jasmin Singer: But I had a discussion with someone about this not that long ago, and he said, "Well, let the..." You know, I said, "Obviously this is not a scalable solution." And he said, "Well, let them figure that out once factory farming ends." That they'll figure out. That, that, like
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, that's fine, but my point is that whatever they're doing is not going to help end factory farming. Like, it's just
  
  Jasmin Singer: What are they doing to, to, and to help end nothing?
  
  Mariann Sullivan: They're not doing anything to end factory farming. They're doing, they're doing something separate, which is marketed to richer people and, um, and makes people feel better. But factory farming will continue regardless of what they do.
  
  I mean, they can, they can market all of their, quote-unquote, humane meat and, and, uh, it, it's not gonna have anything to d- any effect on Smithfield whatsoever. It's just a separate project, and as a separate... It just doesn't seem like we share the same goals or are moving towards the same goals in any way.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Right. It's like my, the, the trope that I say every time we used to give workshops, which I'm sure I put in my book Fabulous Vegan, which is unless we want a world where the rich eat animals and the poor eat nothing, we have got to come up with a way to transition toward a plant-based world.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Right. They're, they're not, we're not going to... They're not gonna scale, and we're not gonna change all animal agriculture to that kind of animal agriculture. That is not an option that is on anybody's table. It does- that, that doesn't make any sense. So if, if that's not, if that's not what we're gonna do, then what's the point?
  
  Jasmin Singer: But if someone who feels opposite us, if a vegan, if an animal activist does feel that they are natural allies, if they were in this conversation with us, wouldn't they say, "Well, we'd rather, you know, we'd rather coalition build with these folks than not coalition build with them"?
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I, I don't know why. I mean, I just don't get it. Like, what's the goal?
  
  Jasmin Singer: It brought, they've, 'cause they would, and I don't feel this way, but they would say it broadens the tent.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Well, it broadens the tent, but I mean, everybody in the tent has to, like, sort of be working towards the same thing. I mean, we could, we could bring in, um, anybody and say it broadens the tent, but, uh, we're not... Like, it-- Like meat reducers are working towards the same goal we are. They're working towards having fewer animals suffer on factory farms.
  
  Our, our number is zero, their number is apparently not. But it's, you know, it's, it's headed in the same direction. But I, I just don't, I don't get it. Like, I don't know what I would say to such people because I don't get the plan. All right,
  
  Jasmin Singer: Let me ask you something.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Like, we support humane meat producers and they... Do they support us?
  
  I don't know. But let's say we do, we support their work. What does that get us? What does that get animals? I mean, so rich people will have food they'll feel better about, but it's not gonna stop any of the rest of the animal agriculture from continuing. So I think it's just, regardless of whether you think it's moral or immoral, I think it's just a waste of time.
  
  I, I, you know, I could be wrong.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Let me ask you something,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I always like to say that. You know why I like to say that? Because I'm a girl. So I've g- I get...
  
  Jasmin Singer: and you end it with, "Or
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I'm not sure it was brilliant, but you know, you always have to counter.
  
  Jasmin Singer: It all the time. I do it literally all the time. Like, I'll say something, you know, in a work setting that I feel very strongly about that is totally tied into my, my 20-plus years of expertise in this particular area, and then there will just be a moment of silence and I'll be like, "You know, or not. I don't know."
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Uh, but okay. So let me ask you something, and I don't know if this is changing the subject or not. I'm, I'm not thinking it's changing the subject,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I think it's fine if you do change the subject.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Been a lot of talent recruitment that I've noticed in the animal protection, you know, movement, quote-unquote movement. Uh, I'm quoting and unquoting because it's, I just... You know, it, it, it's shorthand. It's not like we get a club card when we become animal activists. But I've been seeing a lot of talent recruitment, which is something I'm very passionate about. I think that we need to recruit more talent. Uh, and, and I think that there are organizations like Animal Advocacy Careers that are doing really great work with that. But I have noticed that lot of some of the institutional animal protection organizations are not requiring that these folks be vegan. Uh, they just want folks with particular skills and talents. And I get it.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I don't really understand what you mean. Like, what do you mean talent? Like hiring?
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yes,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: You're not talking about, like, recruiting spokespeople. You're talking about...
  
  Jasmin Singer: like development people or, or campaigns managers, like corporate people with corporate campaigns experience. There seems to be, you know, speaking of broader tents, there seems to be, and
  
  I'm-- this is somewhat anecdotal 'cause it's what I've been noticing. There seems to be more and more folks coming in from the outside who aren't necessarily vegan.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I'm not familiar with this. This is more your bailiwick.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Was talking to someone recently, totally assuming she was vegan 'cause she worked for one of the big animal protection organizations and, and she's not.
  
  She like just is anti-factory farming.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah, that is, that's new. I mean, to me
  
  Jasmin Singer: it's new to, in, in the movement.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I understand why. It's just too hard to recruit people who are good when you're also putting this, like, absolute, uh, requirement on them. Uh, so I understand why it happens.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I do too, and I'm not saying I'm against it. I, I just, I, I am perplexed.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: It's perplexing.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Like, like what's it like to work at a animal protection organization that, you know, has a vegan philosophy where you're not vegan? Well, peop- I mean, non-vegans just to s- seem to handle being non-vegan perfectly well, even though I would find it embarrassing.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Honestly, I keep, I'm thinking about things to compare it to, and I'm not gonna say any of them out loud because they would be so unbelievably inappropriate. But let's just say they have to do with, you know, um, uh, human trafficking and they have to do with prison reform.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I know. I don't think we should go there.
  
  Jasmin Singer: gonna
  
  Mariann Sullivan: So I'm happy to go there immediately, but you know, we gotta face the fact that we're, th- there's not that many of us, and if we can get people who are really good, you just gotta hope, cross your fingers, that they get on board.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah. All right. Wow.
  
  Okay, so you've been doing a really great job, Mariann, of finding us good news
  
  every Thank you.
  
  So what, what, what have you got this week?
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I mean, I don't have a lot, but I do have other kinds of news. But this is, um, from Green Queen, "Aleph Farms secures Singapore approval for cultivated beef, targets 2027 restaurant launch." I think we should plan a trip to Singapore, though I'm not totally sure 'cause I'm not exactly sure what's involved here.
  
  So, uh, this is this cultivated meat startup. We have not heard a lot of progress from cultivated meat, and apparently it's not really doing all that great in Singapore, which is the place that has launched most of the products. Um, they're launching with a bunch of restaurants, um, and you know, it's probably gonna be pricey, and, and it took them four years to approve, uh, this, uh, beef.
  
  Uh, yeah, I'm so hungry. I'm looking at these pictures of food. All right, I'm, I'm gonna shut up. Um, all right, and it's a hybrid... This is the part I don't understand, a hybrid meat innovation combining non-modified, non-immortalized cells of a premium Black Angus cow with a plant protein matrix made of soy and wheat.
  
  I don't really understand, like, how, how, what that means. It sounds like they, like they're taking cells from a cow, and they're not gonna be able to re- they're gonna have to keep taking cells from a cow, which I'm not comfortable with. I want them to be able to reproduce it, but still, this is the kind of thing we should be keeping track of.
  
  It's important. Um, so Singapore was, of course, the first country to approve any kind of cultivated meat, and, um, Eat Just's Good Meat brand became, uh, available in 2020. Vow's cultivated quail. I've never even had uncultivated quail in my dark days. Also some pet food, which is, uh, interesting. And, um, so it's gonna be available, and, and, uh, I, I think that that definitely counts as progress in a, in a field that we have not seen a lot of progress in for a while.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah. You know, I went to Redfern last night, uh,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Oh, I'm so hungry. Don't, don't...
  
  Jasmin Singer: know. I'm sorry.
  
  Well, I'm on a, I'm on a fast mimicking diet. It's my la- It's, uh, five days and it's my last day and I'm starving.
  
  I'm s- do you want me to not tell this?
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Alright. I, I just, I, I'll pay, I won't pay attention
  
  Jasmin Singer: Okay, don't. So the, their special was a, you know, all vegan, but it was a shrimp broil and I was like, so weird." Like I, it's not like I ate-- I never ate sea animals, uh, when I ate animals. I always found it odd for some reason that was the
  
  Mariann Sullivan: it's kind of a Jewish thing, isn't it? It's a kosher thing.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Maybe.
  
  I don't know. I wasn't kosher.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I know, but you know, your heritage and stuff,
  
  Jasmin Singer: yeah,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: trickle, trickles down
  
  Jasmin Singer: And so I was thinking about that story while you were talking about Aleph Farms just now, and, and then I went to like, why do we need cultivated meat when we have meat analogs? But we already know that,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.
  
  Jasmin Singer: So we don't have to have that conversation.
  
  It just seems so inexplicable,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: The whole thing, uh, you know, to, to list the things that are inexplicable in the world we live in is just exhausting.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Bizarre. So bizarre. All right, so, uh, that was the good news, so now I guess
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.
  
  Jasmin Singer: good news.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: All right. W- we have an ar- article from Kenny Torella, who I mentioned before that I think he should pay us to be his, um, press agent since we talk about him, and you, you mentioned that maybe we should pay him to, for providing us with the content, which just probably makes more sense, um, from Vox.
  
  And this is really good information, not for you deciding what you wanna eat, but for you talking to people who are constantly k- saying, "Oh, but I buy organic." Costco's organic chicken isn't what it seems. A disturbing new investigation reveals how easy it is for farms to subvert organic rules and hide animal cruelty.
  
  I love that he is highlighting the, the anim- 'cause there's many other things that are fucked up about, uh, organic standards and how they're not complying with them, but he's putting the animal treatment. 'Cause there are some... They're not great, but there are some rules about how you can treat the chickens in organic standards, a- and apparently nobody pays attention to those rules.
  
  It costs twice as much as conventional chicken, he mentions, and people buy it in part because they believe that the animals are given a much better life. That is absolutely true, because how many times have you been told, "Oh, but I buy organic"?
  
  Jasmin Singer: Oh
  
  yeah,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: it, the... Save this article 'cause you can give them this art- Just put a, put a few copies in your purse, um, or in your back pocket.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Or your pocketbook
  
  Mariann Sullivan: your pocketbook.
  
  Um, all right, so it does say, he does say that there, the certification does on paper legally require better animal welfare, more space, fresh air, outdoor access, and other improvements. So you can imagine that's really happening... so this is based on this Mercy For Animals, um, undercover investigation at a Pilgrim's Pride supplier in North Carolina that just came out.
  
  And, um, it's also s- the farm is also certified as humane by the nonprofit American Humane Society, which is just as I, far as I can figure out, a total scam. Um, and all right, unsanitary living... I'm not gonna go into details. Don't worry. Unsanitary living conditions, severe neglect, a lot of disturbing cases of outright abuse.
  
  He he tells you what they are, but I'm not going to. Um, the farm could not be reached for comment. The certification company, um, could not be reached for... No, they declined. They, they were reached. They declined to be interviewed. Um, Costco didn't respond to an interview request, and Pilgrim's Pride declined an interview request and refused to answer on specific questions.
  
  So yeah, they just feel very comfortable in just, just say, you know, "Don't, don't look over here." Uh, a spokesman for Pilgrim's Pride did say that it was deeply disturbed by the conduct at the farm and has dropped it as a supplier, which is always what they do, which I like to refer to, as everybody knows, as the Claude Rains, um, uh, excuse because of the part that Claude Rains played in the movie Casablanca, which if you haven't seen, like, what's wrong with you?
  
  Movie from the '40s. They're investigating, uh, Rick's, um, cafe where there's illegal gambling going on and, um, and Claude Rains, who's the police officer, said, "Oh my God, I had no idea. This is terrible. I had no idea," as he's collecting his winnings 'cause he was just at the tables.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: All right.
  
  Jasmin Singer: one
  
  Mariann Sullivan: A good one.
  
  I can't... Even though nowadays nobody's even seen Casablanca, I can't let it go 'cause it's so good. Uh, it's also a very good movie. Um, all right, as this article points out, it reveals the immense shortcomings of governmental oversight, corporate animal welfare guidelines, and third-party inspectors, 'cause it's all just bullshit.
  
  Um, some of the things that, uh, they, they were violations of were requirements for outdoor access, safe ammonia levels, you can imagine, and darkness. Organically raised chickens are supposed to be given eight hours of darkness so they can sleep, and the manager at this farm told the undercover investigator that she gives them three to four hours, um, except on the day that the, um, the inspector was supposed to arrive from Pilgrim's Pride, um, 'cause the light, light makes them grow faster.
  
  These people are just unbelievable scum. A spokesperson with the USDA, which does en- you know, enforce organic guidelines, said it is unable to comment on investigations. They're just unable. They couldn't speak that day. They were, like, the... Something was wrong. Quote, "upholding organic integrity and protecting organic producers and consumers is a core mission of the National Organic Program.
  
  Part of that mission includes providing due process under the law and allowing certified organic farms to come into compliance when problems occur." I mean, just think about that for a minute. They think that the role of the government in protecting these chickens is to provide the farms with due process and to allow them to come into compliance when problems occur.
  
  Well, nobody ever knows the problems occur until Mercy For Animals sends some poor benighted person in there for two months to, to take film, and then they allow them to come into compliance instead... This is so typical.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I'm getting carried away. A great article. It is, as always, as, uh, always much more complex, uh, 'cause Kenny always goes into great amount of detail and, um, also talks about how, you know, maybe some improvements for what the organic standards should require, uh, which isn't gonna happen,
  
  Jasmin Singer: I have, I, I, you know, we, we pick up the dog meds at Costco, so we have a membership and, they have great frozen organic fruit. Um
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Costco ha- I, I, I go to Costco.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I
  
  Mariann Sullivan: They d- the one where doesn't have those little, those little dead chickens that they're famous for, you know, the rotisserie chickens, um, doesn't have them.
  
  Jasmin Singer: But I'm still... Costco horrifies me. I try and make my in and out as, you know,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: They have a really good reputation for their employees. Like, they pay better.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I have a friend who used to work there actually,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Yeah.
  
  Jasmin Singer: And they, uh, confirmed that, that it was a really good job.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: But yeah, somebody needs to call them out on their animal treatment. Well, obviously somebody is 'cause it's, you know, they like to brag about what a great company they are. Well, depends who's looking
  
  Jasmin Singer: they're just supporting factory farms, or is it animal factories?
  
  Mariann Sullivan: You're referring to this other article from Faunalytics. Yeah, we don't have to spend a lot of time on this. I just thought it was so interesting. Animal factory, factory farm, or something else, and they tested language, and, um, they found out a, a bunch of in- interesting things. Um, people are worried about factory farming practices.
  
  They're worried about the actual way that animals are treated. They are. They don't really understand what the term factory farm means, and they don't understand what animal... Like the minute we say factory farm, we know what we mean. They don't know what we mean. Actually, the term factory farm, it turns out, this is so interesting, was, was invented as a, as a complimentary term, um, in the, I guess in, in the early part of the 1900s, uh, you know, to show that farms were, like, getting organized and more efficient.
  
  Um, they know it's... I think people kinda know it's bad, but they don't have really any idea. So their point is, a couple of points from this research, animal factory is a better term than factory farm for making an impact on people. It, it drew the most negative impressions, so you might wanna use that term instead.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I'm going to. I love that. Def- definitely.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: And they, they don't re- they, they are f- two-thirds of people were somewhat familiar with the term factory farm, um, which is a little more than are f- are familiar with the term animal factory, but it's still, they, they, they didn't understand it to be as bad.
  
  Um, the, the participants responding to animal factory reported strong associations with several harmful conditions for animals.
  
  So they got it, that that's what that meant, which, you know, when you think about it, makes sense. You're using the term animal in the name, and we don't think of that because, uh, because, um, we're so used to it.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Do you think that people from other movements, uh, think about language as, as
  
  we
  
  do?
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Maybe not as much because in other mo- there're not a lot of movements where people are as unfamiliar and as, as shut down about, um, the issues as in our movement. But I, I do think language is probably important no matter where you are. I mean, I'm a lawyer, like that's what we do.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I just googled another word for human trafficking just 'cause I was curious what would come up, and it says the most common alternative term for human trafficking is modern-day slavery.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I think human trafficking is pretty powerful.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I do too.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I don't think, I mean, modern-day slavery is also powerful, but I don't think they really need, you know, to mess with human trafficking. I, I, I think that people know what that mean. Uh, what do I know? Like, but I do think that people know what that means and know it's really, really bad.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: So the suggestions are to, um... so, uh, it's good to, to, uh, te- it says test animal factory.
  
  Animal f- advocates should treat animal factory as a promising term to explore further, not as a replacement for factory farm, and use factory farm when familiarity matters. Um, but always explain what you mean. So animal factory is more obvious what you mean, but it's less familiar. Factory farm is more familiar, but you gotta spell it out.
  
  It's always good to spell it out. The term industrial animal agriculture didn't really land with people.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I just feel like even when we were talking about like the, you know, cultivated meat and I was talking about why, why do we need to put all this energy into that when we have meat analogs and we rolled our eyes and said everything is inexplicable. I just feel like we put so much into the, oh, they don't understand that eating animals is bad so let's come up with another way to say it.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Oh, I see what you mean.
  
  Jasmin Singer: animal
  
  okay, well, I know, let's put... Uh, and it's just like stop eating them. I mean, they're individuals. Like it, it's-- I'm also like I'm a little testy today.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: No, I, I
  
  hear what you're saying, but I think this also connects to our conversation with Bjorn about, uh, what cognitive dissonance is and, and how hard it is to break through it, which is also really useful. Um, but I hear what you're saying. Yeah. It's like if we can just come up with the perfect thing to say, they'll get it.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Exactly.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: We don't have a lot of time 'cause we're supposed to finish at 30 minutes and we're over.
  
  But, and there's stuff I wanna, I, I wanna talk about, um, a few action alerts, I think two. One is about, um, the Captain Paul Watson Foundation. They are in currently in this i- in this campaign, um, near Iceland, um, which is, has decided to, uh, kill fin whales, um, because, like, why not? And it's a very, very aggressive campaign as their campaigns always are, and, and, um, th- they, their boat, the Bandera, has been seized by the Icelandic authorities while the, the, the hunters are, are of course allowed to continue.
  
  And of course, Paul Watson and the foundation always take the position that what they're doing, that what the hunters are doing is illegal. I mean, Iceland takes a different position, but they do have legal sources that back up their point, that what they're doing is stopping illegality. I think that's really important.
  
  They're not just a bunch of, um, crazy, uh, um, you know... What's the word I'm looking for? I don't know. Uh, I mean, I j- I just think it's, uh, important to keep that in mind. All right. They're at a crisis point. Their boat has been seized. Um, their people have been seized, and, um, they've been boarded. I understand that the people have been allowed off the boat, but, uh, uh, they're, for, according to this action alert I saw, they still haven't gotten access to legal counsel or only very limited.
  
  Um, phone calls, they couldn't make phone calls. Um, they were searched. Uh, property was seized. Um, so this is bad, and we don't know what's going to happen, so they would like people to speak up because Iceland is very vulnerable to public pressure. And, um, we will put a link, I mean, I'm sure you could find this if you just search for it, but we'll also put a link to the action alert in, in the show notes.
  
  And there's w-
  
  Jasmin Singer: I think people should, uh, you should bookmark ourhenhouse.org because Vicki does an amazing job of collecting articles.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: No, our show notes are so good all because of Vicki, yeah
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Uh, and it just, even if you can't listen to the podcast right away, why can't you? You could check the show notes to, for, for things like this.
  
  But anyway.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: All right, there's one more action alert. This is from PETA, and this is ask the Senate to save animals, pass the FDA Modernization Act 3.0, and this is a law that it- there's huge bipartisan support. It passed in the House. It had passed in the Senate, but now they have to, you know, they have to reconcile them, so it now has to pass in the Senate again, and they just need to do it before, uh, you know, the Congress is over, uh, 'cause we just don't want this to lapse.
  
  So it's really important to talk up about it. This is the kind of law that, you know, it's not that compelling to describe what it's about, but it's hugely important because they, they passed, um, a, a prior FDA Modernization Act 2.0, and, and that legally ended the statutory mandate for animal testing in new drug applications.
  
  But this is actually forcing the agency to do something about it. That's the Food and Drug Administration. They have to update their regul- they, like, they passed the law, but they haven't, like, in- in- incorporated it into, into their practices, and so they have to update their regulations. They have to, um, replace outdated references to mandatory animal testing, um, with broader non-clinical test terminology.
  
  They have to enforce timeline. Uh, just a bunch of... It-- Like, they passed a law, and now they have to pass another law to enforce the law that they already passed, 'cause that's how it works in animal law. So that is a really important thing to support and, and to call them about because they, they'll do it.
  
  Th-this is just a matter of, of, um, of... Like, th-this isn't that controversial. Uh, it's got bipartisan support, but they could let it drop, and then they have to start all over again.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Hmm
  
  Mariann Sullivan: So that's what I wanted to say.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Ugh. Well, you don't have anything else good for us, huh?
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Oh, we have a few book and movie suggestions that we haven't seen or listened to, but we can't see and listen to everything, so we're just passing them on. One is a podcast from a guy named Anthony Rotano he's a professional podcaster, and, um, he recently woke up about animals, which is exciting, and like went, apparently went into a, you know, a tailspin.
  
  His, his podcast is Life and Life Only. Um, and, uh, he did a three-part story on animal, what's happening to animals. I find that very moving.
  
  Jasmin Singer: I do too.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: One is this movie on, that's on Netflix now in which Mo Gilligan, who is apparently, um, a very charming, uh, comedian from the UK, eats fried chicken every day for a month.
  
  It sounds like that old movie, you know, um, uh, that was where the guy who ate McDonald's for a month
  
  Jasmin Singer: Oh,
  
  Mariann Sullivan: got really sick.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Me
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Supersize Me, right. Um, and it follows him and, uh, reveals a lot about the chicken industry in both the UK and in the US. So I don't want to watch it, I'm sorry, but
  
  Jasmin Singer: Cool
  
  Mariann Sullivan: get all your friends to who eat chickens.
  
  Um,
  
  Jasmin Singer: Lock them in a room.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: And I think,
  
  Jasmin Singer: on their way home from Costco.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: I think now we can get off of this. We're only 10 minutes over.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Okay, we won't get in that much trouble from Vicki. Uh, all right. Once again, we are off next week and, uh, we will be twitching and staring at our computer screens and we hope that you do the same.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: You know, we always say we've been doing this for, I don't know, how many years? 15 years, and we've never missed an episode.
  
  Jasmin Singer: We've been doing this almost 17
  
  Mariann Sullivan: years and we've never missed an episode, or we've never missed a week, and now, now we can't say that anymore.
  
  Jasmin Singer: Yeah, but like the thing is we say and we've never missed a week, but now we're up four times a week.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Right? But still, it's a whole week that goes by...
  
  Jasmin Singer: uh, Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays except next week. The Hen Report on Thursdays except next week, and the long form interview on Fridays except next week. Bonus content for flock members comes out on Mondays except next week. Uh, well thank you. Thank you, Mariann, for curating another fascinating episode.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: Oh,
  
  Jasmin Singer: Report, and
  
  Mariann Sullivan: you, thank you for all of your interesting comments
  
  Jasmin Singer: Well, you know, like I said, I'm a little testy today, so this is irritated Jas that you're getting as opposed to, slightly less irritated Jas, but still irritated, which is my normal, way I show up.
  
  Mariann Sullivan: It's time to get off, Jasmin. It's time to get off
  
  Jasmin Singer: All right.
  
  ⇧ Close Transcript

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