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App not listed? Try this RSS linkIn this episode of The Hen Report, Jasmin Singer is joined by Marielle Vigneau-Britt of Totally Forkable to unpack a viral video from The Financial Diet’s Chelsea Fagan, who took aim at vegans while discussing consumerism in France versus the US. Together they dig into why comment sections don’t represent an entire community, how veganism keeps getting conflated with extreme “purity culture,” and why dairy addiction — not moral posturing — is often the real barrier keeping people from going vegan.
- Debunking the “preachy vegan” stereotype: Jasmin and Marielle challenge the popular narrative that vegans are uniquely judgmental online.
- Veganism vs. environmentalism: Why conflating plant-based eating with animal rights activism misses the point entirely.
- The parasocial influence of content creators: How millions of subscribers can amplify a misleading take on veganism and consumer culture.
- Confronting dairy addiction: An honest look at cheese cravings, and why “I can’t give up cheese” is more common than outright rejection of vegan values.
- Privilege, purity culture, and speciesism: Unpacking blind spots in progressive spaces when it comes to animal rights.
RESOURCES
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INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Jasmin Singer: Welcome to The Hen Report from Our Hen House. I'm Jasmin Singer, and I am not joined by Mariann. I am being joined by my friend and colleague, Marielle Vigneau Britt from Totally Forkable.
Welcome to The Hen Report, Marielle.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.
Jasmin Singer: I am so excited that you're here
We've been planning this for like 15 minutes.
So, uh, I'm really excited about it. Um, all right. We have some, we have some things to get off our chest, and The Hen Report feels like a better place to do it than just in our text messages because why just keep it to us when we could complain to the millions and millions of listeners worldwide that we have?
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: The group chat was going wild, and by group chat, just the two of us.
Jasmin Singer: The two of us.
Okay. So we're gonna get to that in just a second, but I have just a couple reminders for our listeners and viewers. Uh, so for those of you who are here with us right now, thank you so much for being here. Our Hen House is a podcast, we're on YouTube. You watch us on YouTube. You could listen to us on any podcatcher.
And we are so excited that we have a sponsor. So if you've ever wondered how you can turn your passion for animals into a career that creates lasting change, Vermont Law and Graduate School can help you make it a reality. The Animal Law and Policy Institute at Vermont Law and Graduate School is home to one of the nation's leading animal law programs, preparing the next generation of advocates to shape laws, influence policy, and protect animals. Whether you're pursuing a law degree with a concentration in animal law, an animal law LLM, a graduate certificate in animal protection policy, or a master's degree in animal protection policy, you'll gain the knowledge and the practical skills to tackle some of the biggest challenges facing animals today.
You can learn from nationally recognized faculty and engage with real world legal and policy issues. You can join a community dedicated to advancing meaningful protections for farmed animals, wildlife, companion animals, and animals used in research and entertainment. It's such an exciting opportunity.
Your career could take you to nonprofit advocacy organizations, government agencies, policymaking roles, litigation, academia, or really anywhere that you could help create a more just future for animals. So if you're ready to discover what's possible through the Animal Law and Policy Institute with degrees that can be earned residentially or online at Vermont Law and Graduate School, visit vermontlaw.edu/animallaw to learn more and start building a career that advances legal protections for animals. Okay, Marielle, I have to tell you, we... This is, I think, the second or third time we've done that announcement, and I went down such a rabbit hole the first- after I read it the first time. Like, as soon as we finished recording, I was like, "I wanna do this." And I looked into the online program for a while and I, you know, I have this whole thing of like, am I too old? I don't know. But it's really cool.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Never too old. I love that. My mom went back to vet school when she was in her 50s.
Jasmin Singer: Really?
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Not back to vet school. She went to vet school for the first time and became a vet in her late 50s. So never too late, hens!
Jasmin Singer: There's, there's this commercial that's on, uh, the TV machine around here, and it's, like, talking about how you could go back to school, and it's like, "I went back in my 30s." And then someone's like, "I went back at 40." And someone says, "I went back at 45."
And I'm older than that, and it ends there. And I'm like, "Well, okay, I guess the, I guess, I guess the ship has sailed."
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: I love how the windows just rapidly get smaller. It's like 30, 40, 45.
Jasmin Singer: And then it's over.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: And then your life is over.
Jasmin Singer: Okay,
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: gosh
Jasmin Singer: I- speaking of life being over, no, I don't know. That, I just felt like, I felt like that
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Your, your voice memo was very, you know, this really affected you.
Jasmin Singer: No, it's
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: as it did me
Jasmin Singer: the, the, the world is over for my relationship with a particular YouTuber that, uh, I have been following for, you know, six months or so, but like really enjoying greatly. Now, this, this, this conversation is gonna talk some shit. I'm gonna be real, but that's like, The Hen Report does talk some shit.
We're gonna kind of step that up a little bit today and like really talk some shit, so I just wanna say I'm very sad and heartbroken about what we're going to be talking about. So should I kind of lay it, lay it all out there for our listeners so that they could join in on the chat with us?
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Yes, let's get into it.
Jasmin Singer: Okay. So there is a YouTube channel, and please jump in if I'm saying anything incorrectly or whatever.
It's called The Financial Diet, and it's run by this woman, Chelsea, who, uh, is like half-time in France, France, and half-time in New York City. She is, uh, uh, she has dual citizenship, I believe, but is American by birth. The Financial Diet talks about... You know, she's a, she's a millennial. She talks a lot about millennial financial issues, but, but it goes so far beyond that.
It's like a cultural analysis of like so many issues, some of which, uh, center around, uh, consumerism and, and just kind of having like this weird throwaway society, but it also gets into other issues that are in the zeitgeist like, you know, um, body image issues and, and like what you said earlier, uh, reinventing yourself after 50, things like that. I don't always agree with her, uh, but I do, I have always found her pretty insightful. I, I guess I wanna say upfront that when I first started watching/listening to her, I heard her make this offhanded reference about veganism that I was like, "Okay, ew." then I decided that a lot of my, you know, a, a lot of the YouTubers I follow are not, are not vegan, so why am I ewing that, and I- why can't I just compartmentalize and, you know, listen to her for the sake of the things she talks about?
So I put it away begrudgingly. Flash forward to a few days ago, she has this video, and you know, we will link to it in the show notes. And it's about like comparing the consumerism in France with the consumerism in the US, and in the middle of this discussion, she starts, you know, talking about, uh, veganism. And actually, uh, the, it's kind of like... What, what, what would you say? It's like about the difference between cultures and consumerism and, and sort of bringing in veganism randomly. Like, I don't totally understand how veganism even entered this conversation.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: It, it's extremely random, yeah. And we'll, and we'll get into that. But it, it feels out of place, so it, it does kind of hit you like one of those stray bullets like you were saying. Like, you're just enjoying your content, some random topic about, you know, consumerism in France and the US, and it's like, whoa, vegans are under attack.
Jasmin Singer: Right. Well, that-- and that's immediately how it felt. And a-as soon as she said vegans, I was like, "Uh-oh." But I, I thought, "Okay, just-- she's gonna get past this moment, and then we could move on," 'cause I find the topic of consumerism very interesting, uh, especially frequently her take. And then randomly, as you said, vegans were under attack. I feel like it came, it really came out of left field. Like, can you help me make sense of how this even came up?
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Okay, so there were two mentions. The first one was, was this totally random mention which wasn't really an attack but it was something that immediately stood out to me as a red flag. Um, she basically refers to veganism as an environmental choice. Um, you know, she's talking about flying and how for some people not flying is a matter of personal principle, kind of similar to people who are vegan for, you know, environmental reasons or who make other environmental choices.
So I get that some of this is semantics. Sometimes people say, like, being vegan but really they mean, like, being on a vegan diet or being on a plant-based diet. So I'm not trying to be the word police, but it definitely stood out to me as someone fundamentally misunderstanding veganism and conflating it with, you know, environmental activism in a sense.
Jasmin Singer: Right. She, I don't think she even said the word animals once at all.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: No.
Jasmin Singer: But yet her criticisms of vegans sort of were maybe centered around animal rights vegans, I think.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Yeah, I think so too. So, so yeah. So she gets into these sort of American, uh, purity and identity cultures is, you know, basically the crux of what she's criticizing about America versus France, and how those can hamper our ability to make small changes with regard to consumption. Um, so she-- so it, the vegan thing comes up because she says something that has really soaked in with her, her words, about France, is that she doesn't know many straight-up vegans, but almost everyone she knows tries to eat more plant-based, which allows them to, uh, you know, err more toward that side, um, but still participate in the food culture of France.
Jasmin Singer: Wow. Okay.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Yeah .
Jasmin Singer: Fr- have you been, have you been to France?
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: I have. Yes, I have.
Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm. Me too.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Not as a vegan though.
Jasmin Singer: I have been there as a vegan and I quite enjoyed it, which, you know, I get what she's saying. Like, there is a big food culture there. It's definitely to, to a large extent centered around cheese, but there's a big vegan food culture there as well.
That's not what she was referring to. I just felt like, yeah, throwing it out there because she, yeah, she was kind of talking about how people in France have, and this is my interpretation, have this sort of like laissez-faire, I'll say, uh, attitude about life in a way that Americans don't because Americans have- are much more like purists and like tougher and rougher and, and absolutists.
Now, the fact that she was sort of saying that Americans are absolutist is ironic as hell.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Yes, and I think that, you know, I did agree with her to a certain extent when it comes to, like, the purity culture of America or the identity culture and people holding onto that too tightly. Um, but I also... I was like, yeah, I kind of agree with that. Also, I think that has nothing to do with veganism. And there is this sort of profound misunderstanding always of veganism being tied in with, like, being on an extreme diet or, or, you know, um, a- any, any type of extreme lifestyle that you can think of.
Veganism always gets, uh, thrown in with that because I guess, you know, not eating animal products is seen as extreme in the world that we live in, certainly the country we live in. Um, so yeah, sort of agree with what she's saying. Also, again, why is veganism in there? Um, so should we get into the TikTok?
Jasmin Singer: Yes, please. I'm gonna sit back and listen to you talk about TikTok 'cause you do it much better than I do.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Well, this is where it gets a little convoluted because she basically references a TikTok that she made about a TikTok that she saw, right? So there's a few different layers of TikToks within, uh, her discussion. So in the TikTok she saw, um, I guess she didn't, she didn't link to it or anything, but it was a woman who is flexitarian and made a TikTok talking about how she tries to be mostly vegetarian, um, but sometimes, you know, if she's out and about, something like, you know, living her life, whatever, she might eat meat.
Um, so Chelsea claims that there were a lot of comments on that TikTok from full-time vegetarians or especially vegans, her words, encouraging the person to, quote, "Go all the way or do better." And she said that this felt like such a microcosm of a larger problem she sees all the time in progressive spaces, which is the closer someone is to doing what you think is the right thing, the more likely some people are to admonish them for not going further or doing better.
And she says that it's, quote, "Such a profoundly unlikable and counterproductive and smug way to approach the world." Um, she also relates this to politics, claiming that it's, um, a similar challenge of how to get more people under our tent, right? Which is something that I kind of agree with. Um, but then she once again references making more eco-friendly choices, and, um, something that really bothered me was that she also said that hilariously the entire comment section of her TikTok on this topic was the perfect example of this exact phenomenon in action.
Now, I went and checked her TikTok 'cause I was like, "I need to see these comments. I need to see this phenomenon in action." But hilariously, upon further inspection, um, all of the comments that I saw were unbelievably mild. All the top comments were saying things like, "Perfection is the enemy of progress," and, "We need more imperfect vegetarians and vegans than a few perfect ones."
Um, I scrolled and scrolled and did not see a single comment expressing the type of sentiment that she claimed is, is just rampant in these types of comment sections.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah, let me actually go back to my six months 'cause I just realized I didn't, I didn't finish that thought earlier. So six months ago when I started watching her, she made this, like, offhanded comment and it was that she would never go vegan, speaking of absolute, you know, definite for sure comments. And, uh, and then she said, "And feel free to hate me in the comments. I don't care. This is a hill I will die on." And then she moved on and I was like, whoa. You know, as Mariann would say, rising anxieties much. You know? It was, like, really aggressive. And, uh, it's funny because Chelsea sort of talks a lot about, you know, how she's overcome these sort of, like, you know, g- generalized anxiety disorder.
Like, yeah, me too, girl. Uh, and but she talks about how she's had to really work on personality issues about, like, you know, coming on too strong. Me too, girl.
But this particular one was so pointed and, like, you know, outwardly focused in, in a way that felt so, like, like, just like a bus hit me or something like that, you know? And, and, and this is really where, where we get to the crux of the problem. I think w- what you just mentioned about the comments in the TikTok and what she mentioned about the comments, "Go ahead and hate me in the comments", six months ago and, you know, heaven knows how many times besides that she's, like, quickly put in a anti-vegan sentiment. But the comments that she was referring to were from what she kind of explained is, like, all vegans. And, and, and it's like I, I don't know about you, but I don't really think that the comments section of anything is representative of an entire demographic, whether it's vegans or whatever.
It's like I'm actually... I didn't go to the TikTok and look at the comments. I'm not surprised by what you just said, but it's, like, validating in, like, a yucky, icky way. I think that comments sections exist in order to display the most extreme points of view.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Yeah, I think it, it is emblematic of, of the phenomenon that, you know, it's like people will have one maybe negative experience or certain type of experience with a vegan in person, and then it's like to them for the rest of their lives, like, "All vegans are judgy and preachy." Um, they're, they're just conflating one experience they had or maybe she saw one comment.
A lot of content creators will do this. They'll be like, "Everyone was saying this in my comments," and then you look and there's like maybe one comment. And like I get it. As a creator, sometimes that one comment can really stick with you and, and it can flood or overwhelm maybe some of the more positive or some of the more nuanced comments you got.
Um, but also I think online is where we see the most extreme iterations of everything. And so, um, on Chelsea's part, you know, a, a, a seasoned person of the internet, let's say, I, I definitely think it, it's a user error to conflate that with meaning like all American vegans are X, Y, or Z. Um, you know, yeah, there, there is just this constant hyperbole and exaggeration when it comes to vegans.
Jasmin Singer: Well, and this morning when I was leaving you an audio message, and I have to say I was hardly caffeinated when I was doing that, so I apologize if I, if there were like 10-second breaks in between my words. I was looking for the words in my, you know, uh, near 47-year-old perimenopausal brain, and they're harder and harder to find , Marielle. Um, but this morning when I was leaving you that message, I was thinking about the fact that like not to be on my high horse, but like Chelsea was on hers, so I'm gonna get on mine with the full permission of the horse who wants me to you know, get on him, and in fact, he is made of plastic, not a real sentient being.
Stop me. Okay. I, I have interviewed thousands, thousands of vegans and I would venture to guess that in my 17 years of doing Our Hen House with Mariann, I would say 99% of them would be absolutely celebrating someone like this random TikToker Chelsea was talking about who was making significant steps in her life to eat fewer and fewer animal products. They would be applauding her. They would be like, "Cool. Let me know if you need any recipes." Maybe some people would like jump in and, and t- talk about how they might handle a, a social situation where, you know, this TikToker maybe was struggling or wanted to be a people pleaser or eat the cheese that was put in front of her or whatever.
Maybe someone would go to that extreme, but most people I think would be like, "Yeah. That's awesome. Welcome." I mean, is, is that your experience as well?
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Yeah. You know, I was thinking about this because I have seen examples of what Chelsea's saying specifically in vegan groups, um, specifically on Facebook, which like anytime I talk about Facebook my subscribers are like, "This is why you need to not go on Facebook." But, um, you know, we, in my local state Facebook group there's a lot of, um, what I would describe as like turbo Karens that then became vegan.
Um, and I joke on my channel a lot about being a vegan Karen but these are like certified, like before their vegan days they were like clearly from their online presence seem, seem like sort of raging Karens that then became vegan and are still carrying that like energy with them. And there are times when someone will join, um, uh, the group or I'll see this on Reddit sometimes where, you know, someone will be like, "I'm not vegan but I'm trying and this and that and I still eat X, Y, Z" and like they're actually coming to us and seeking like knock, knock, knock on the door.
And I will see sometimes that people are like, "Well why not just go all the way? Well watch Dominion." And you know, so it's like I, I do get how that can maybe feel discouraging because I have been on the other side of that too before I was vegan and kind of getting annoyed, you know. Um, but you know, so I, I, I agree to a certain extent that trying to just use welcoming language but like you're saying that is the majority of the sentiment and the actual, you know, comments that I'm seeing online.
Majority is welcoming and, um, aside from the, the turbo Karens, you know, there's not a whole ton of that. Certainly not enough to say all vegans confidently.
Jasmin Singer: I have a question for you, but I'm realizing that within the context of this question, I want to tell our listeners and viewers a little bit more about you and Totally Forkable, which is your platform. Because I'm very curious, I have not had that experience so much, and I do wonder if it's because I'm more speaking directly to animal activists who happen to be vegan.
So t- let's just pause for a second and t- tell people what Totally Forkable is.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: So Totally Forkable is a YouTube channel that I started in 2019 that has evolved a lot over the years. I think when I started it, I, I really wasn't sure what direction I wanted to go in other than I wanted to talk about vegan topics. So sometimes it would be, you know, a, a recipe video, me cooking something.
Sometimes it would be a vlog. Sometimes it would be, uh, reviewing vegan fashions. Um, you know, not very often doing more sit-down deep dive type of videos, um, but at a certain point, probably around 2021, I started watching more kind of deep dive video essays online like the types of videos that Chelsea, The Financial Diet posts.
And I really felt just very intellectually stimulated by them, and I always just found myself like really getting pulled in, really enjoying that. And so, um, the channel started going more in that direction. The first one I posted was, um, a, a deep dive discussion of the Chick-fil-A ads with the cows, you know, painting on the signs and the cognitive dissonance in that.
Um, and so then my channel turned into a lot more deep dives. One random day, I just was, you know, I just got inspired by something I saw on Instagram of this girl doing this funny newscaster bit, and I was like, "What if I did a funny newscaster bit but for vegan news?" And that's when I started doing Good Vegan News, which is a roundup of, uh, positive only, only positive vegan news stories, although sometimes negative things tend to sneak their way in as I'm sure, uh, you and Mariann are familiar with.
Um, but yeah, it is just like very funny and silly and stupid, and people really liked it. And so that kind of became a recurring thing on Totally Forkable, I guess what I sort of became known for. Um, and I haven't posted one in a while to be honest, but I'm still doing deep dives, sit-downs, sometimes vlogs, and hopefully more Good Vegan News in the future
Jasmin Singer: Well, and I love Totally Forkable. It's funny because when I first heard about it, I think I just made an assumption that it was like vegan foodie stuff, which I enjoy. Uh, you know, obviously a lot of my history is at VegNews, which is very food focused. But to me it's like usually more of like a sort of side thing for me because my, my, my favorite thing to cook is toast.
You know, like I'm just not a foodie. Uh, although I do enjoy sharing food photos with you, I admit. Like somehow you're bringing out the foodie in me. But then I looked and I looked again and I looked deeper and I was like, "Oh wait, this is not just foodie stuff. This is like really thoughtful commentary that might start with food, but then it kind of like delves into something much deeper."
And you're Right, Chelsea and The Financial Diet was doing something similar. Like you would think that you were watching a video about, you know, um, a particular celebrity and then suddenly it's about like the entire way the culture is evolving around that. Uh, and, and anyway, so I think that we have a lot of overlap with our audiences, but I think we also don't, and I am curious like these...
You're, you're being so much more generous of s- you know, generosity of spirit here I think than I am, per usual, uh, regarding re- regarding sort of validating Chelsea's perspective to some extent. I, I of course have heard about like these crazy vegans and it's not like I've never seen them, but it's so rare to me and it's so much more common for me to find a crazy meat eater or whatever.
In fact, I think I said to you on my, you know, pre-caffeinated audio message that like there's this joke that says, "How do you know a vegan's at the party? They'll tell you." My experience is that it's the meat eater who will tell you and then wanna talk about how like they tried to be vegan in college once and then you're sitting there nodding and like, you know, eating your hummus and carrot or something and, and, uh, just why, how did I get into this con- It's them! It's not you and but, but Chelsea would refuse to look internally at what role she might be playing in this dynamic.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Right, totally. Especially like making a TikTok like that is, is maybe going to instigate some types of those comments, and then they roll in allegedly, although I didn't see any. And then it's like, see? And like you said, it becomes this sort of self-fulfilling
Jasmin Singer: Right
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: issue or this pickle we seem to, to get ourselves into.
Um, something that, I mean, on, on the less generous side, something that I know I shared in the voice note that really bothers me about like this type of person, which I think there's a lot of these types of people in the world, um, certainly in our country that would identify themselves as, you know, politically liberal and especially on a variety of social issues.
Um, but then, you know, just total, total blind spot when it comes to the issue of animal welfare and, and even how obviously as we know, uh, animal issues can affect humans as well. And, um, that's something that I think really bothers me. You know, she actually said at the beginning of the video, um, that she wanted the conversation to be about provoking thought as much in myself as in anyone else, and yet like you said, she has this, you know, extreme inflexibility on these topics.
Um, you know, so I think that's, that's something that really bothers me is the sort of like zero tolerance for certain social issues, right? If someone were to suggest like, "Well, maybe women's bodies can be controlled by men, like just a little bit every now and then," she would be like, "That's absolutely ridiculous."
And yet when vegans, uh, have that stance around their, their lifestyle and what they're choosing to pay for or not to pay for, um, that is suddenly like you're just an intolerable, um, person. Um, so it, it just brings up the question like are morals flexible and, and would you expect them to be flexible across the board of social issues?
Jasmin Singer: Right, but if you're talking about, like, the environmental perspective which is, as you said earlier, entirely how she framed this, then yeah, flying a little less often, eating a little less meat, that's definitely a, a s- those are steps toward more environmental behaviors, more environmentally friendly behaviors. But if you're looking at this from an animal rights perspective... I'm, I'm hesitant to, to draw these parallels because I know they're really hot button issues and I, like, don't really like to go there either. it's true. I mean, if you speak out for, uh, human, against human trafficking for example, do you go home and, like, have a couple people in your basement against their will?
Yes, there, I said it. I sa- I said it. But it, it, it not only infuriates me, so much so that I had a nightmare that night about Chelsea. Like, literally the entire night I kept waking up and falling back asleep and the nightmare would continue all night. But it infuriates me that she is on her high horse but not talking about the goddamn horse.
There's no comment about animals at all in anything she's saying. So she's pointing to vegans and, like all vegans, she's pointing to vegans' moral high ground without explaining where they're fundamentally coming from.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Yeah. And I think the, yeah, the, the absolutism which we've, which we've talked about a few times now, I, I think too around, um, which approach works is something that bothers me, um, with this type of discourse in general. Um, even, even within vegans people will have conversations like this. Um, but sort of broadly people saying like, uh, you know, giving, giving credit to one method as the only method that works.
Like, well, preaching doesn't work, you have to, you have to entice them with delicious food, or the food doesn't work, you have to appeal to the, to the, like, base- the basic morals. Um, I think there's, there's just a problem when people make blanket statements like that about certain approaches because everyone, I think, requires a different approach.
Everyone comes to veganism in a slightly different way, and I think we all arrive at the same conclusion. Um, but that, but she, she mentioned this in, in that same TikTok, or maybe it was in, in, in the YouTube video when she was talking about the TikTok, that she found a creator, um, on TikTok that was talking about, uh, what he eats at Wendy's as a vegetarian, and, like, different fast food restaurants.
And she was like, "That is so amazing. That is such an amazing approach. Think about he's doing so much more with that approach than vegans doing X, Y, and Z." And it's like, not necessarily. Like, that just worked for you. Um, so yeah. So I think, you know, sometimes it is a shamey TikTok that's needed or a shamey TikTok comment, and someone, sometimes it's someone, you know, sharing what they got at Wendy's, which I assume is just a baked potato
Jasmin Singer: Which by the way, I had another potato before and I told you that like you know that toast is all I do. I don't like to cook. And I saw this random comment from someone saying the most obvious thing, which is that they, they, they baked a po- uh, no, they microwaved a potato for five minutes and then they air fried it for like 12 minutes on f- at 400 and it looked so good.
It reminded me of, of a Wendy's potato. So I made it and it, it tasted s- so good. I had another one today. This is totally a di- aside from the entire topic, but now I'm just thinking about potatoes as I often, I often do. Uh, you know, Chelsea sa- says herself, and I think I'm quoting her from a recent video, that she's part of the bourgeoisie. She a woman of lots of privilege and she, she gives the
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: She loves to share that point, by the way.
Jasmin Singer: She
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: It's her favorite talking point
Jasmin Singer: Here I am in the South of France and I get
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: I get it. I'm privileged
Jasmin Singer: spent half the year in New York City and the other half in Uh, but yet she has this blind spot she refuses to look at. I mean, so much of going vegan for me was looking at my own privileges. And, you know, for me when I went vegan like, I don't know, 20, uh, three years ago or something, after being a vegetarian for many years, it was around the same time as I was reading Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack, which is an essay that i- is quite, um, it is quite profound and talks about white privilege basically.
So I was like starting to come to terms with my white privilege as I was coming to terms with my human privilege and these two things were sort of side by side for me. And it, and it continues. Like I, I'm constantly realizing or probably also in many places not realizing the many, the many areas in which I have immense privilege. But, uh, you gotta look at your speciesism, dude. And I, I mean, I think that, I, I think that that's such a blind spot for her. Do you think she has the possibility of changing or do you think that like it's just a lost cause?
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Well, I think of that meme or that quote that, you know, gets shared often that is, is just so incredibly true which is the quote, "I could never go be vegan," said every vegan before going vegan, right? I mean, I don't know if you ever said that. I certainly said that multiple times. And, um, so I, I don't like to think that there're, that there isn't hope for anyone.
Um, I do, uh, I know I mentioned this in the voice note and I, this is, this is truly a bee in my bonnet. This is, this is a hill that I will die on which is so much of this comes down to dairy addiction. I mean, so much of the excuses I hear from people, I'm just like blah blah blah, I'm addicted to dairy. I get it.
Like, you can just say it. So many people will twist themself up into pretzels rather than say, "You know what? I'm addicted to cheese and I don't think I could give it up." And I say that as someone who was totally addicted to cheese. And it truly wasn't until reading an article probably by Dr. Barnard about, about, like, the addictive nature of dairy and casomorphins and all of this and just being like, yeah, that, yeah, that makes sense.
And so I don't know. I'm willing to bet that a lot of what... You know, I'm sure that the cheese in France is great and, and all of this. Um, you know, and even, even, you know, Miyoko Schinner has said it was, like, her travels around France and trying all these amazing vegan cheeses that inspired her to want to start making her own.
So I think if we could all just stop dancing around the fact that everyone's addicted to dairy and stop trying to intellectualize it, uh, we'd all be a lot better off.
Jasmin Singer: I think that's such a great note to end on, uh, or almost end on because I'm bad at ending things. I'm glad you brought up addiction because you're right. I mean, certainly I grew up in those fluorescent 1980s where, the food, the, the food I grew up with, we didn't even, like, have dishes. We had- we, we ate out of those cardboard squares, you know?
Remember those? That, like, you would micr- I'm sure they still exist. But you would microwave the lasagna for, like, 10 minutes, and it would be all burnt except the middle would still be frozen, like the very center, and, like, that was what I grew up on. These foods are literally designed to become a- for you to become addicted to.
They go down your gullet at a very specific speed with the right amount of squishiness and saltiness that makes you crave more and more and more. And certainly with dairy, the, the, the fact that Chelsea is willing to question assumptions in every other way but this is sad to me, and I don't know why this upset me so deeply.
I actually don't know why this upset me so... I u- it's a YouTuber that I don't know. But I'm, I like, I'm, I wanted to devote this entire episode to this, this conversation because why am I so upset?
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: I mean, there, you know, there's a, there's a parasocial aspect, and when you, you've come to sort of view this person's content on a semi-regular basis because you've come to maybe view them as some sort of an authority or a person worth li- worth listening to, and I think that's what many of her, many subscribers, I mean, they have, like, I think somewhere around 1.2 million subscribers.
Their videos get tons of views. So a lot of people view this person as an authority, um, especially because she's so honest about so many topics. So to hear her being so willfully ignorant about something, um, especially, like you were saying, just the, the consumerism aspect, and then her not connecting that to consumerism, I mean, is, uh, is, is just a big missed opportunity.
Jasmin Singer: I think it's potentially damaging. I mean, I don't want to give her more credit or, you know, more weight than she already gives herself. But I do, I think that it's potentially damaging to perpetuate this myth that all vegans are a particular way. And I know we have to close, but I will, I w- I just want to say that I have a personal trigger, and I've told you about this personal trigger. It's hard to articulate, but if someone says something to me defensively, like they're reacting to something that they perceived that I said, critically and then they're coming to me defensively and I'm like, "Wait, I didn't, I wasn't criticizing you," I am very triggered because I don't kn- I can't say anything at that point.
'Cause if I say, "Wait, no, no, no, no, that's not..." Th- then I'm like perpetuating this, this icky conversation. And that's sort of partly why I wanted to have this download session with you, and thank you, this has been very satisfying for me, uh, and hopefully for our listeners as well re- regardless of whether they know who this, who this Chelsea person is.
They probably know lots of Chelseas, 'cause we all do. But I don't feel like I have an opportunity to approach her. I mean, not that she would necessarily get the email 'cause she's so fancy with her million subscribers and her bourgeoisie. Uh, but, but I wouldn't know-- I wouldn't be able to present myself as a vegan without kind of coming across like what she assumes I already am.
She's judging me before I walk into the room. She's judging all of us before we walk into the room.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Yeah. I, I totally agree. It's, it's, um, like I said, it can be a difficult thing to navigate 'cause this entire conversation could be, you know, evidence of what she's saying. But I, I think it's also proof that vegans can have reasonable discussions and, um, we can vent our frustrations in safe spaces like this, which I think is so important and so necessary.
Um, but you know, we can also recognize where there's room to grow within our movement and, um, you know, not be so absolute about things. I mean, other than, other than our moral stance, which I think many people are absolute about their moral stances, whether that includes protecting animals or not.
Jasmin Singer: God, I really admire you. You're a lot less jaded and mean than me, and I, I, I actually am serious that I admire y- I, I don't mean that it, it c- potentially could sound patronizing, but I don't mean it as such. I, I, I really want to be more like you. I want to be willing to let my guard down in moments like these and be like, "Okay, well, what, what actually can I learn and how can I grow from this moment?"
So... And I get that from your, from Totally Forkable also, by the way. So if you're listening to this or watching this and you don't have access to Marielle as I do, ha ha, but also you have access to Totally Forkable. So tell our, our listeners and our viewers where they can find you and, and follow you online.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Yeah, it's Totally Forkable on YouTube, uh, Instagram, uh, where else? Threads, TikTok. I'm in all the places.
Jasmin Singer: Do you like Threads?
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: I barely ever use it.
Jasmin Singer: Okay. Okay.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: But any time I, I'll, I'll just randomly post on there once in a while, and then I totally forget, and then I go back and I somehow have, you know, so many more, uh, likes and, and things happening than anywhere else.
So there's, there's something interesting going on over there, but I'm a little scared of it.
Jasmin Singer: I am t- I am too. I am t- I'm, I'm also, like, im- impressed by your brain, 'cause sometimes we'll be in a conversation and you'll be like, "That reminds me of a tweet I saw in 2018. Hang on, let me pull it up." Like, that's happened more than once, and I'm like, "Girl, like, I don't even know where I put my keys this morning." Um, but okay. So for those of you listening and watching, this is Marielle Vigneau-Britt. Did I say that well? Was that
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Yeah, you said it right. Well, we, we should ask Chelsea if your French pronunciation was...
Jasmin Singer: True.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: On point
Jasmin Singer: Actually I could use some validation from Chelsea just in general, like about everything. I'm sure she would be happy to provide it.
Uh, for those of you listening and watching, while you're following Totally Forkable, make sure to follow Our Hen House on all of the socials. Don't forget that Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report, which is this, on Thursdays, and the long form interview on Fridays. Bonus for flock members comes out on Mondays. Once a month we also produce the Animal Law podcast and that's coming out this week, so that's the once a month.
And thank you so much Marielle. This was really fun. I really appreciate you and I hope that you'll come back and have other conversations with me about non Chelsea as well.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Yes, this was fun. Thank you, Jasmin, Mariann, all the hens, all the forks. We're all here together.
Jasmin Singer: We're all in
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: and
Jasmin Singer: one salad bowl coop. That didn't work. Maybe I need more caffeine.
Marielle Vigneau-Britt: Our totally forkable henhouse
Jasmin Singer: Our to-- Ooh, I like that!
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