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App not listed? Try this RSS linkOn this episode of The Hen Report, Jasmin Singer and Mariann Sullivan dig into a mix of movement news and reflection. They share encouraging data on the growth of plant-based product labeling and break down key legal wins in animal rights cases — including the Wayne Hsiung prosecution and the Meyenberg goat rescue case. The conversation turns to the environmental toll of animal agriculture on the Great Lakes’ water supply, and closes with a thoughtful discussion on movement infrastructure — why sanctuaries, podcasts, and community spaces support political strategy in sustaining long-term animal advocacy.
Key Topics:
- Vegan visibility goes viral — A casual YouTube chat sparked an invitation from The Financial Diet (1.3M subscribers) to debate vegan myths with a mainstream, non-vegan audience.
- Plant-based market growth — New data shows vegan and plant-based labels now appear on 40% of new snack launches, signaling optimistic momentum despite restaurant closure headlines.
- Animal rights legal wins — Updates on the Wayne Hsiung Sonoma County case and charges in the Mayenberg goat rescue case.
- Water, agriculture, and the Great Lakes — A look at how animal agriculture strains the Great Lakes’ fragile freshwater supply, with only 1% naturally replenished each year.
- Building movement infrastructure — Why sanctuaries, podcasts, and community spaces are essential to sustaining activists — and how the animal rights movement can stay big-tent even amid strategic and tactical disagreements.
RESOURCES
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- The Hen Report Ep 974
- Animal Law Podcast Ep 133
- DXE on Instagram: VICTORY!
- Ridglan rescue court case delayed to October 19
- “Thank you, Rochester” Instagram post
- How Agriculture and Data Centers Compete for the Great Lakes’ Most Precious Resource
- Political Surprise in the Corn Belt
- Soup Street
- Veribark
- WoofPet
- Flockwork
- March to Abolish Animal Testing
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INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Jasmin: Welcome to The Hen Report from Our Hen House.
I'm Jasmin Singer.
Mariann: I'm Mariann Sullivan
Jasmin: And we are here in Rochester, New York on beautiful Lake Ontario.
Mariann: Ontario.
Jasmin: Mm-hmm. Yeah
Mariann: If you don't understand why we're, uh, talking about that, you're lucky.
Jasmin: I'm pretty sure... Well, I guess it maybe hasn't become international news beyond Canada and,
Mariann: Americans should never assume that they're the focus of other countries' news, tho we frequently are because we're screwing so much up.
Jasmin: So much, uh, including what's happening to animals, which is why we're here at Our Hen House. And
Mariann: Nice segue.
Jasmin: A quick reminder about the Our Hen House podcasts, Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report, which is this, on Thursdays, and the long form interviews... Alright. You're just lip syncing, you're lip syncing to my speaking and only the people watching this on YouTube understand why I just paused.
Mariann: Yeah.
Jasmin: And the, the long form interviews are on Fridays, and Bonus for Flock members comes out on Mondays. We're on YouTube as I just mentioned, so subscribe, hit like, comment, listen on your podcatchers. I'm more of an audio person myself, though Moore watches YouTubes a lot. Uh, and frequently I'm in the room, so I have gotten kind of into a few of them.
Mariann: I just discovered the Kitten Lady on, on YouTube and my life is over.
Jasmin: She's vegan.
Mariann: I know.
Jasmin: Yeah. She's a big animal rights...
Mariann: That doesn't come up.
Jasmin: Mm.
Mariann: I mean, she's very good and I do enjoy watching her and I've learned a lot, but let's face it, she ain't the star of the show.
It's all about kittens.
Jasmin: So, uh, I, I just wanted, I wanna give a little update because something kind of bananas-y happened. So last week you were not the co-host for The Hen Report. We had a guest hen in the, in the...
Mariann: Miss me?
Jasmin: We did. Mm-hmm. Always. Uh, and it was Marielle Vigneau Britt from ... A friend of mine. And, and we were kind of going off on a little bit of a tangent from what we usually discuss here at The Hen Report, which is usually very animal activist oriented, but this was more of a kvetch session.
Like, it was Marielle and I responding to what we perceived to be some, you know, kind of v- annoying as ... very annoying comments about vegans that this YouTuber, uh, that we both follow and like, The Financial Diet is the name of it, had made. And they ... I felt like, we both felt like they were just not grounded in anything real and I don't
You know, you can go listen to that episode. Uh, and, and I put it on Our Hen House and Marielle put it on her platform which is called Totally Forkable, which I totally recommend. It's fabulous. And we ... It was like a 40-minute chat or so, and, uh, we, we were talking about how The Financial Diet, uh, which is run by this woman Chelsea, had... Chelsea had kind of gone, uh, like on and on about how all these vegans are like alienating non-vegans and, and she ... There was a lot of generalizing and a lot of kind of saying that we're shaming people with our purity tactics and this and that. Anyway, so we put this video up like totally thinking we're, we're just talking to our buddies, right?
And wouldn't you know it, slipping right into Marielle's DMs is Chelsea Fagan from The Financial Diet. She's like, "Yo, a bunch of my viewers have sent me this and, uh, I, I wonder if you wanna come on to my show and talk about it." And so, uh, I've been ... I mean, she has a massive following, like 1.3 million YouTube subscribers and, and I've been working with Marielle on like, you know, h- preparing for this and, and I'm super excited it's Marielle doing it.
Uh, sh- Chelsea only could have one person and she ... her whole thing, her whole shtick is like millennials and Marielle sits right in that, in that demographic and I like really think when I walk in the room with my haircut and my tattoos I look like a vegan. So I think Marielle is like the perfect, you know, the perfect person.
And, uh, isn't this ... It's just bananas. Like they're, they're actually engaging in a discussion about like vegan myths for a huge audience of non-vegans. I am so excited.
Mariann: It's great.
Jasmin: Yeah,
Mariann: I'm not upset at all that after, after 10 years of, 15 years, whatever it is, of doing Our Hen House, the first time we got any serious attention was when I wasn't on. But it's fine.
Jasmin: 17 years, A. And B, we didn't get the attention really. I mean, I was there but it was like the, it was for, it was Totally Forkable. But, but I will say that I was talking to my friend, uh, Trish last night about this and I, I, I was telling her about how the only other time that I remember this happening in, in, in Our Hen House history is when we went down to I think it was Virginia to give a talk, and the local news was clearly like slow that week because they invited us on to talk about our talk, which was about, we thought they were gonna like say, "What's the best vegan cheese?"
But they were like, "What's going on in factory farms?" And you killed it,
Mariann: I was on with somebody from The Bureau.
Jasmin: No, no, this is, this is first, first it was you and I, and then big- the, the agriculture industry in that area, which is massive, watched it, complained, and asked if they could come on to retort. And the hosts of that news show were like, "Well, we're gonna invite Professor Sullivan back on, and you can go head-to-head with her."
Mariann: I I can't believe I didn't remember
Jasmin: You killed it. I mean, it was like, it was hot. Like it was amazing. And, and so it was the only other time that
Mariann: We have all the information on our side, which helps.
Jasmin: I mean she was like, r- I remember the woman was saying that debeaking doesn't exist there or something, and you're like,
Mariann: She was an idiot
Jasmin: total idiot."
Mariann: Well maybe she wasn't an idiot. Maybe that's the way you play it. "No I'd never heard of..."
Jasmin: Right. But that was kind of, th- this was probably 15 years ago. It was certainly before, you know,
Mariann: I don't think that's as big as The Financial Diet I mean I'm glad you tried to make me feel better by remembering
Jasmin: No, I
Mariann: my one moment in in the sun in rural Virginia.
Jasmin: But hang on. It was the, the reason why I'm comparing it is it was like a non-vegan audience inviting a vegan on because their feathers were ruffled and, and saying like, "Let's, let's talk this out." And you killed it. Marielle's gonna kill it. I said to her like, "Let's say a million people watch this and like 100 people think slightly differently of..."
Like even if they don't go vegan, if they're like, if they challenge some of their perceptions and that winds up being like, you know, one of the seeds that's planted and, and I'm just, I'm excited. So pay attention over at the f-
Mariann: I think it's amazing.
Jasmin: Yeah
Mariann: My curmudgeonliness is exactly a joke but it's certainly not a a lack of recognition that this is really really good.
Jasmin: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Uh, we went to the Rochester Veg Fest this past week as just, uh, you know, as just goers. We were just goers. We, we went to e-
Mariann: You actually wore your Don't Eat The Homies Tshirt that day too.
Jasmin: I was wear- I have two, I have two, yeah.
I know, and I will say I thrifted both of them on like Depop or Poshmark or something.
Mariann: Oh.
Jasmin: Um, which I guess is not good in the sense that it didn't support the company which is...
Mariann: They do deserve support
Jasmin: They do. They do. But, uh, yeah, I got... A lot of people were wearing some really cool message wear.
Um, but aside from that, it was just really fun. We got poured, poured on by like some massive downpour, but then the sun came out, as it does, and it was, it, it was just, you know, there were so many people there just like poking around at a vegan fest. Yeah.
Mariann: It was very nice
Got some good cheese.
Jasmin: Oh, did you eat it yet?
Mariann: Yeah not all of it. I ate some of it
Jasmin: Was... have you had that one before? Which one was it? Was it, uh-
Mariann: Smoked Gouda from from what's Spirit in
Jasmin: in Abundance. Spir- yeah, Spirit in Abundance.
Mariann: It's a local company. I love to support them.
The the woman who founded it is terrific
Jasmin: Yeah? Mm. You didn't invite me over.
Mariann: Lots going on with vegan cheese these days.
Jasmin: Hey, do you still have some? Can I, like, have some when I see you later, just a bite or two?
Mariann: If you if you hurry
Jasmin: Okay. All right, let's talk about, uh, something else. Let's talk about this email we got from one of our listeners.
Goose Rodri- Goose Rodriguez.
I assume Goose is a nickname, but, like, that's my favorite nickname...
Mariann: I think his name is Gustavo.
Jasmin: Okay. That makes sense. Yeah, what a great nickname. Seriously, I want that. I love it. So why don't you walk us through this since I've been talking a lot?
Mariann: Yeah no this was just... he wanted he wanted to make everybody feel better about all of the bad news on talking about how veganism is dead and uh that a ve... there's a vegan label backlash that uh means that meat eaters won't buy things But he said but if you actually look at data that's not that's not what it shows. That's just like you know meat industry talk. Uh and it shows what he calls optimistic rapid growth.
Jasmin: Hmm
Mariann: He just uh... so he offered a few uh a few factoids Um there's a prominent growing trend of food companies adding vegan or plantbased labels to products that have always been vegan or plantbased uh but you know like peanut butter. I love that Um
Jasmin: funny. Wait, wait, wait. I just wanna say something. I, I wonder if it's ... I'm drinking a seltzer right now. Some of the seltzers I drink have a vegan label on it, and I always think that's so funny. Like, go vegan, drink seltzer.
Mariann: It could have like meat juice or something.
Jasmin: Ew. I c- ew. Okay, continue. I wanna get that thought out of my head.
Mariann: You should we should always check on everything and not buy anything that isn't... no I'm sorry I don't actually
Jasmin: No, you don't think that.
Mariann: You can go buy celery if you want Um
Jasmin: I don't want
Mariann: So according to marketing research brands do this to capitalize on a multibillion dollar market without spending a dime on reformulation. Wow.
Veganism is apparently like a bestseller. Um he also said that according to tracking from Innova Market Insights vegan and plantbased labels are now appearing on 40 of all new snack launches.
Jasmin: Really? I, that's shocking to me.
Mariann: To Innova um there's there's a massive transition towards authentic plantbased formulation. So it's not just labeling it's um it's this there's a wave of new products that's focusing on standalone clean label whole foods like lentils, chickpeas, and mushrooms
Jasmin: Oh my!
Mariann: Combining them with added functional health benefits. So like there apparently is a recognition that people think that vegetables are indeed healthy um and there's people trying to take advantage of that in making um snack foods. And it's he says that uh the trend is very optimistic and great for the vegan movement and and yet for some peculiar reason mainstream media ain't talking about it. All they talk about how is how all the vegan restaurants are closing, which I know is depressing and I know we have a whole list, but the fact is is that restaurants close all the time.
It's a very iffy business and we're kind of at the period where restaurants have been open for like 10 years or so and the you know it they have a they have a life and and new re w we can't talk about it without recognizing that new restaurants are opening.
Jasmin: I have a little, uh, a- anecdote to that. We, we had a little month- we do this monthly animal rights gathering and, and it was at our friend Michelle's, Michelle and Krista's, and, and she was like, "Oh, I just found this book. I thought you might find it fun to look through." And it was the 2012 New York City Vegan Guide.
Now, of course, we were living there then, and I was like, "Ooh, do I..." I did too. We owned it. I was like, "Do I wanna open this?" And, and I did, and I'm gonna say that, like, almost all of the restaurants were closed. But interestingly, uh, it was some of the ethnic restaurants that were still open, like Pangal, which is in Little India, which was right by the court where you worked.
Um, Buddha Bao Jai, of course, our favorite. Hangawi is still there. So the-- I mean, it's not like I gave it a super close read. Oh, and also notably, uh, I was looking at some of the ads, and there was a full-page ad from A Well Fed World, and I was like, "Yes, A Well Fed World, you keep just kicking." You know, I-- so it was sad, but I think also it was 2012.
That was like 15 years ago.
Mariann: Long time ago! I mean, like list the number of nonvegan restaurants that have closed in New York City since then. You couldn't write a book that long.
Jasmin: Someone has brought that up actually recently when they talk about the number of, uh, vegan restaurants that have closed. It's never comparative. Like, it's never like, "And this is the
Mariann: Nobody ever says what percentage of all restaurants close?
Jasmin: Right.
Exactly. Well, thank you, Goose. That was fun. And I, I think you have some more good news that you pulled out for us today.
Mariann: Well there's been a lot of legal news. It's not all good but it's mostly really good. All right I this If you if you wanna know more about this and you haven't yet listened to um the Animal Law Podcast episode 133 you should. But this is about Sonoma County's prosecution of Wayne Hsiung um I most recently interviewed him and his attorneys um after the c the California Court of Appeals, which is the midlevel appeals court, reversed some of the charges. Um and and uh he had been convicted of of a felony charge and two misdemeanor trespass charge and it they they left one one misdemeanor charge um alive, but they dismissed the rest. But they dismissed them with the possibility that the prosecution could retry them. They didn't say that you know there wasn't sufficient evidence or something like that It was that there was a trial error, a stupid one. The whole thing the whole thing is annoying and I can't go into all the reasons now cause I'll be talking for the next two hours and everybody will turn it off. But they th th so they they dismissed these charges allowed the prosecution to retry him and the prosecution has just decided, "No we're not gonna bother retrying him." Yeah no that's really good. He still has this this charge pending. Um and well it's not really pending because he's already done the time for them but uh but he still has this. But it's a misdemeanor and um so that's basic that's very good.
Jasmin: That's fabulous.
Mariann: Very recently on episode 135, I interviewed Taj Uppal.
Jasmin: Great interview.
Mariann: He is a young activist uh and attorney um who was charged along with three other people in a goat rescue, rescuing baby goats, um in in California in at the it's called the Mayenberg goat rescue case. And uh they, they had all fel... they had felony charges pending against them, which was not only ridiculous you know he's a young lawyer. He's about to get his first job as a lawyer. You can lose your law license for a felony conviction, so it's ve I mean even it's more dire than even like just having a felony conviction, which is pretty dire in and of itself. So I interviewed him very early on in this case cause I was so interested in it. And it was uh and it was before the judge had actually reviewed the e the evidence. This is in very early stages of the case. And when they did get to I couldn't interview him on the day I'd normally interview him on I had to interview him before that because he had to actually go to court uh which you know some for some reason he prioritized over over talking to me.
Jasmin: Rude.
Mariann: Alright so the the judge when it finally got to the judge uh he reduced all four defendants' felony charges to misdemeanors. And you know it's not nothing. There's still misdemeanor charges pending but a misdemeanor charge is just a lot better than a felony charge. They also um mentioned that body ca there's there's a great thing about the body cam footage uh that revealed that was revealed in discovery. You really have to see it to believe it It show it just demonstrated completely how much the sheriff and his minions just were doing anything they could to charge these these these I was gonna call them kids but that's outrageous. Like I that's just an old lady thing to do. Uh they're not kids. They're grownass adults. Uh th they they just wanted to charge them with a felony even though the go every... there was loads of evidence showing that the goats were not worth more than 150 apiece and you had to have 900 in in theft to make it a felony. They just there there's this great footage of them saying, "We have to make it a felony." Uh and so the judge um also sought further information from the prosecution on the allegations of a conflict of interest on the part of the district attorney. Uh you know this is a rural county uh and and uh so the district the current district attorney used to be in private practice and she worked for the for a firm and while she was there she represented the farm. So she used to be the farm's lawyer and now she's the district attorney.
Jasmin: There's some w- this is all weird.
Mariann: This is all still unresolved but it's all very good news especially the dismissal of the felony charges.
Jasmin: It's, it's really good news, but I have to say, like, as a non-lawyer listening to all this, it's all so bizarre. Like, it,
like l- loop- it's loopholes and mistakes and happenstance. Right. It's so funny. The law is so weird sometimes.
Mariann: The news from Ridglend isn't isn't really good news. They still haven't charged anybody for the second the April uh raid um uh on on Ridglend, where uh you know a number of people were arrested and it and that's the one where it first looked like a disaster but you know turned out to get great publicity and they ended up getting all the dogs out. But before that there was the March raid, which was much smaller and they did get dogs out. Um and people were charged with very serious charges. Um four primary organizers including Wayne Hsiung were um were charged with the most serious crimes. But a lot I think 47 or f up to... the uh the number is very unclear somewhere between 47 and 62 people were a were charged and they're they're awaiting trial. And you know they're from all over the place so they have to go to Wisconsin for for the court hearings And at the la Th they they keep putting them off. Um and the last one that they had a hearing scheduled at the very last minute the prosecution uh ghosted and and asked for more time and so nothing happened. And it's I it just it's abusive. It is absolutely abusive.
Who knows I mean who knows why they're doing it? Maybe they maybe they really think, they thought they wanted to go to court. Maybe they thought everybody would plead guilty and maybe they're horrified about what's happening. I don't know.
Jasmin: That's also bizarre, but in a different way.
Mariann: Bizarre. It's all bizarre.
Jasmin: Alright. Well, there's something else that's pretty bizarre going on, and it's going on right in our backyard. And this kind of doesn't really have to do with animals, but we thought we'd mention it because it's...
Mariann: Well we kinda mentioned it at the beginning but
Jasmin: The
Mariann: Happy to mention it again cause it pisses me off.
Jasmin: Well, you're not alone in that. I'm seeing it everywhere.
The, uh, just the fact that Trump is trying to rename Lake Ontario Lake America is, uh, uh, like I don't even know if I have words. The funny thing is, and probably people, I don't know, I think people know this, but maybe not, Google Maps refused to, uh, refused to leave it as Lake Ontario and, and they changed it to Lake America.
W- Google Maps is what I have been using, and we're right there. We're like 15 minutes from the lake. And, uh, and MapQuest is the only, is the only one that is leaving it as Lake Ontario. I have to tell you, I couldn't sleep last night, and, uh, for some reason I wound up on MapQuest's Instagram, and they are making the funniest content about this.
Mariann: I've seen some of it.
Jasmin: Like, they are
Mariann: Apparently their downloads are off the
Jasmin: the chart. Yeah, for sure. I'm like kind of obsessed with this and, and yeah. So I'm glad we...
Mariann: MapQuest I'm gonna switch
Jasmin: Yeah. Okay. I think I'll switch too. Um, I
Mariann: We do have a little other Great Lakes lo news that actually does have something to do with animals. We could probably come up with some way to say say that that was about
Jasmin: Well, you could just say like, uh, be, mm, let's see. There's so many wild birds who fly across the lake that would not know their way if it changed its name. Go, just go on. Just keep going.
Mariann: News about the Great Lakes which has nothing to do with what they're named um is from Sentient, Sentient Media. How agriculture and data centers compete for the Great Lakes most precious resource. This had some information in it that I was avail uh unaware of. And I I mean I did know that that there's water demand from agriculture and data centers. I know we downplay the amount of water demand from data centers, but it definitely ain't nothing. Um it's not it doesn't compare to agriculture.
So this is talking to some extent about plant agriculture, crops grown as feed, which is related to um animal agriculture but I don't think that's as as notable as the unbelievable amount of water that is used for raising animals because if they weren't raising crops as feed they'd be raising other crops, so I don't know. Um, am I bending over backwards to be fair? I don't know.
But both of these are just insane water demand and the great... this is the factoid that I didn't know. Like Great Lakes hold 20% of the world's surface fresh water. That I did know. It's unbelievable, I mean it's just enormous amount of water. Only 1% of that water is naturally replenished each year. We can't u... we could, like, we can't use all that water. It's not gonna come back.
Jasmin: Yeah .
Mariann: This is not a constant resource being, uh... So, uh, we have to be really careful with our precious lakes.
Jasmin: It does kind of show to go ya that we just, certainly in the US, think that all resources are infinite. I mean, that's like in a ... It, it's so tied to a ca- capitalistic destructive mindset and society and, and this is, this is a finite resource and it's, it's the Great Lakes' most valuable one. Uh, I do wanna s- pause for just a second and tell our, our listeners and our viewers that you're having some repair work done on your house, and so...
Mariann: Just gonna ask if you could hear it.
Jasmin: A little.
Just, just in the last few minutes. So I, I'm pretty sure Vicky will be able to edit most of it out, but,
if, people hear like a farting noise, it's probably not farting. Likely.
Mariann: sounded like farting, but okay. I, I, I'm, uh, my apologies. But, you know, you hire somebody to come do something, you can't tell them to wait a half an hour.
Jasmin: Well, they usually want to work exactly when you don't want them to.
Mariann: I wanna add one more story
Jasmin: Yeah, go for it.
Mariann: Great Lakes list of stories, except it's not actually in the Great Lakes. It's, it's in Iowa, which is not a Great Lakes state. I'm gonna mention it, anyway because I think it borders a Great Lakes state.
This is from Circle of Blue, which, uh, uh, prob- a publication I'm not familiar with.
Political surprise in the Corn Belt: Water pollution and cancer are on the ballot. I mean, as you probably know, cancer is rampant, I mean, really terrifying in, um, in Iowa. And, and we all know why. It's, you know, from, from, uh, the pollution, particularly nitrates, and, uh, it's actually getting attention.
This is Iowa, like the most- Mm ag-controlled legislature, uh, that you can imagine. And currently both candidates for governor and both candidates for, uh, for I think it's, um, Secretary of Agriculture are, are campaigning on, on doing something about this, which is unbelievable. People are... I mean, people, we all know that people care about data centers 'cause there's a lot about that in, in, in the news, and, uh, it, really seems like people may be waking up about agriculture too.
Jasmin: I mean, the-- I-- Do you really think so?
Mariann: Once loads and loads of people get, get cancer, of course. I'm sorry, what were you saying?
Jasmin: Yeah, it's very Erin Brockovich for sure. Uh, uh, do you really think so? I mean, do you th- like it, it rem- it hearkens back to our ongoing conversation about the campaign to end factory farming, which conveniently does not have a, uh, a, a alternative discussed. Like, nobody's saying and therefore go vegan or eat more plant-based or whatever.
But do you really think people are starting to wake up to this? I mean, do you think that like, uh, so many of the stories that you just covered, including the legal stories, to me, tie right back to that capitalist toxicity and, and that- that's exactly where big ag lives. Do you really think that people are starting to wake up to what's going on in agriculture and wanting to change it?
Mariann: I know my whole life is based on the assumption that it's possible. Uh, so I guess I don't question it too deeply, but I do like to see indications that something's going on.
Jasmin: I'm down with that.
Mariann: And actually I've been thinking a lot about, you know, about different takes on the movement. I mean, for, for weeks I've been thinking about this. Maybe for 15 years I've been thinking about it. But I am troubled. This is, this comes a lot from my, from my, um, interview with Simone Scampoli, who, that has m- he's a, he's an Italian activist and sanctuary manager. It hasn't aired yet, but we had a conversation and we were both, uh, talking about, uh, just movement infrastructure, and we were specifically talking about the, the importance of sanctuaries as part of movement infrastructure. Sanctuaries do a lot of things, but one thing they do is provide a place for activists to renew themselves, which I think is hugely important.
Activists of all types. And so it started me thinking about, you know, the fact that I think that that's something we try to do, uh, in our own little way and, uh, and you know, we have a hard time raising any money to help pay, uh, to put the podcast on because, because a lot of funders say, "Well, how many vegans have you created?"
And I'm not sure that we do create vegans. We more support vegans. And so this, this led into stuff we've talked about in the past few weeks about, uh, you know, the whole effective altruists criticizing the vegans and, uh, well, not, not that they're not vegan, but a vegan approach to activism. And I, I just jotted down some thoughts about, first of all, I th- I, I hate it when anybody, and I've seen this happen, and I'm not gonna name names because that's not the kind of thing I do, but, uh, and I don't want people to not like me, but...
Jasmin: And it's not one person. It's multiple people.
Mariann: Bunch of different people and doing from all s- different sides of the movement, and that's my point, the movement. Don't use the term movement to def- to talk about your corner of the movement. Like, the movement is a huge, very varied... well, not huge. It's tiny, but, uh, it's a very, very varied group of people. I'm not sure exactly where we should draw the lines, but it definitely shouldn't be only those people who agree with you on tactics and strategy. Uh, maybe we can limit it to those who agree on goals. I don't know. Uh, it's something to think about, but I want that that word to be big. We should be proud of the fact that our movement is big and, and includes people of all different attitudes.
Jasmin: Right. I mean, this, this reminds me a lot of The Financial Diet stuff actually, because like Chelsea was basically saying that we have a tiny little, itty bitty tent, and we were like, "No, we have a pretty damn giant one." And, and you know, I agree with what you're saying here about the movement. I think it's interesting because in this time where effective altruism is growing and is about to really, really grow, uh, I, I think that they have a big focus on what they call field building, and I think that, you know, that's not necessarily animal specific, though, uh, you know, about one fourth of effective altruism's focus is farmed animal concerns, so to some extent it is.
But I think field building is exactly what we've been doing, and as Our Hen House is, uh, you know, direct proof here of the fact that it, it, it is working because we, we are... Yeah
Mariann: I shouldn't say this is everybody in the effective altruism movement because... vis a vis farmed animals, 'cause I don't know everybody, and I certainly don't read everything that's going on.
But I think there is a tendancy to, to define the movement very narrowly and to look down on people who don't do it the way they do it. Uh, you know, because there's a lot of money, and there's a lot of concentration on the fact that this problem is psychotically enormous and, and, and, you know, to be fiddling around with, uh, with, with small-time vegan advocacy seems like a waste of time. But this is crazy. This is crazy. Like, we shouldn't be, be assuming that everybody is going to be doing the same thing and working toward-- in the same way and d- having the same strategies.
It's just-- But even if we could prove, which we can't, that we know which is the right way forward, not everybody's gonna agree with you. So unless people are really-- Well, the, the most damaging thing that you can say is, is if you say what they, the other people who have a different strategy, are doing is actually setting us back.
This is like the old, uh,
Jasmin: Mm-hmm
Mariann: been going on in the movement forever, that welfarists set back abolitionists. and I just think that if you're going to say that anybody else who is working towards the same goal is setting you back, you better be really sure.
And the fact is, how can you be really sure?
'Cause none of us know how to get there or what's setting us back. None of us know that, including the effective altruists, including, uh, anybody.
Jasmin: Right. What I keep coming back to is that we spend so much energy on theory of change and almost none on the structures that let anyone, you know, stay in, in this for, for like decades. Yeah, structure. And I mean sanctuaries which are more than infrastructure like are, are an example to me of structure, podcasts, and obviously I have an axe to grind, vegan restaurants, whatever we haven't built yet, we need so much more than what we have and we're not gonna get there unless we have that structure.
Mariann: I think sanctuaries are undervalued for... I, at least in my life they are, and I assume that's true of real-- I know it's true of a lot of other people, that, uh, the ability to go to a sanctuary is very meaningful, and I think that we need to emphasize that more and more.
I know this is an outrageous comparison, but, but I think that, that there's an enormous amount of focus on what will make us politically, um, successful, which I think is hugely important and, you know, building a political strategy and thinking about what other movements have done, whether it's like the AIDS movement or the NRA, like, or anybody, like moving politically.
But there's, there's, there are other ways to... Not everybody thinks politically, not everybody acts politically, and I think... Oh, I'm nervous to say this, but I really think that another kind of system we should look to is churches. I don't mean that animal rights is a religion by any means whatsoever.
I d- it's based in fact, not in faith. Uh, that's neither criticizing religion nor, uh, disparaging religion or approving of religion. It's just different. But there is that, that, that world view that it can bring in everybody, and it changes your whole life. And, and I think we need to take advantage of that and, and just think of the support that churches supply to people.
I mean, I was talking about this with Taj when I interviewed him, and he was talking about Sikhism.
Jasmin: Mhm
Mariann: He was saying that, uh, the amount of support that people get from their church community is so enormous. I don't think we can replicate that, but you never know. It is-- This is a-- This is not just a political change.
It is an entire philosophy, entire way that we live upon the Earth. And we have to really broaden what we think of as, um, activism and as, as ways to support activists. I mean, a podcast is good. I'm the last person to say it's not good, but it, uh, you know, we need in-person spaces as well, and I think sanctuaries can satisfy that.
And, and vegan restaurants, you know, I guess a few of them. It is-- You do run into people there, I'll give you that. But we need so much more than that. We need ways for people to join. And, and, and think-- I mean, I, I think of sanctuaries because I know... I mean, my sanctuary, my fundamental sanctuary is Farm Sanctuary.
I know it's a cliché, but I was... You know, in the '90s when I, when I discovered this, I remember when I first went there, when I was a new vegan, when I didn't know anything. And ever since, whenever I've walked onto Farm Sanctuary, it has just felt like a sanctuary. It's like this is a place where the world makes sense. And I th- I think that's very, very powerful. Anyway,
Jasmin: well, I d-
Mariann: Just some thoughts.
Jasmin: Yeah, I mean, and also I don't think that everyone has to agree on any of this. You know? Like, it, that's, that's
Mariann: I guess what I would say is I want people
Jasmin: We, we have to last. We have to stick around.
Mariann: to agree with is that the movement can encompass all of these things. You can still think that my way is the best way, and you can try to persuade people, "Do it my way. I, I know the best way." And I think that's fine. I mean, everybody... And, and if people wanna donate their enormous amounts of money to effective altruist, uh, strategies that other people don't think are, uh, are useful, well, that's their money.
If that's what they wanna spend it on, that's, that's their business.
Jasmin: Yeah
Mariann: Uh, if you wanna say, "If you can't measure it, I'm not interested in funding it," okay. But if I wanna say, "I can't measure what I'm doing, the art that I'm doing, but I still think it's useful," uh, you're just still part of the movement.
Jasmin: Right. We don't have to agree on the tactics to belong to the same movement. We, we do have to build the things, the structure that let each other keep going, and I think we've barely started that. So there's...
Mariann: I really don't know where veganism comes in. Do you have to be vegan to be part of this movement?
Do you just need to be on a journey? I don't know.
Jasmin: I don't know.
Mariann: It's a little hard to imagine.
And if you don't eat animals, are you part of the movement? Definitely not. You know, plenty of people who don't eat animals for all sorts of reasons, some of which make no sense to me.
But if it's not about animals, then at least partially it's, I don't, I don't think you're part of the animal rights movement.
Jasmin: Not, not just by default, right? Although by default we should stop eating them.
Mariann: It is hard to imagine any other movement that would say, you could be part of our movement even if you eat our constituents.
Jasmin: This reminds me of an argument you had with my brother on, like, a rooftop bar in Kansas, like, 15 or 20 years ago. Do you remember that? Where he was...
Mariann: Trying to forget it, but...
Jasmin: Yeah, sorry about that. Yeah, he was just basically saying you can care about animals and not be vegan, and you were like, "No, you can't." It reminds me of the Billie Eilish thing that went around recently where she was like...
Yeah.
Mariann: We're on the same.
Jasmin: Too bad Billie wasn't at that bar with us, but I think she was probably three at the time,
Mariann: Yeah
Jasmin: so it might not have worked. All right. Do we have s- we have a bunch of announcements, right?
Mariann: Yeah, we have a lot of announcements, which is good.
First of all, we have a book. And this is a book that, that some people are really gonna wanna get. Keith McHenry, the founder of Food Not Bombs, has come out with his memoir. It's called Soup Street. It is available on Amazon, but I kind of guess that Keith would not want you to buy it on Amazon. Um, and, and he's, he's an iconic activist in many areas of anti-capitalism and environmentalism and just a whole world of things. But h- one of his major projects was the founding and the continuation of Food Not Bombs, which is a way to feed people who need food, and it's always been completely vegan, like, for a long time.
Jasmin: Yeah
Mariann: Keith is no kid. He's, he's been around for a while. So I imagine that's a fascinating, uh, fascinating autobiography.
Jasmin: He's been working on it for a really long time. When I lived in Santa Cruz back when I was the senior editor at VegNews, uh, he lived in Santa Cruz. And there was, you know, a vegan restaurant right downtown where my office and my apartment were, and I remember going in one day, I went in every day, and Keith was there, and I felt like I had seen Beyoncé or something.
Like, I, I was flipping out.
Mariann: I always confuse them.
Jasmin: Yeah, they are very similar. But he was working on it then too, and that was, like, more than 10 years ago.
Mariann: It's not the kind of thing you just spit out.
Jasmin: Right. No, it's definitely not. Yeah. Very cool. I'm excited about Soup Street.
Mariann: Wanna do this next announcement? It's about this Friday?
Jasmin: Yeah, sure. If you're listening to this episode of The Hen Report right when it came out, which I'm sure everyone is, uh, y- you should know about this because we, we do monthly Flock Fridays, and we get a fair amount of Flock members.
But I'm not sure everyone knows that this is a perk you get by joining the Flock, which you can do so at ourhenhouse.org/support. There's a few perks you get. One of them is to join us for a monthly interview that we give, which then you have the opportunity to do a Q&A with who, who we're interviewing. And, and I hope that those of you who are in the Flock join us on Friday, September 4th, at 4:00 PM Eastern for our in-person interview.
Well, not in person. In person meaning you'll be there live digitally with us, uh, with Marie Gibbons of Veribark, and that's V-E-R-I-B-A-R-K, which is an app that interprets your dog's body language. So we have questions. I have so many questions, and I know you will too. And in case you're wondering, there are plans to extend this to other animals.
So if you're not a Flock member, you'll still have an opportunity to listen because that interview will air later in the month. This is so exciting!
Mariann: I would recommend to people that they download it. There's, there's either a free version or it's an introductory free... Anyway, you can do it for free and try it out, I mean, if you have a dog. Or you could try it on your husband or whatever.
Jasmin: That would be hilarious. They'd be like, "Uh, he's thinking about, um, you know, he's thinking about the cookies that he hid in the basement." By the way, that was a real example that I just gave of my stepfather when I was growing up. He hid cookies in, he hid cookies in the basement and he got in trouble.
Mariann: He w- he, he was not an unhealthy eater. He just lived with your mother.
Jasmin: As did I, which explains a lot. She's a wonderful person now, but you know, she, she had some learning curves, uh, which happened in the entirety of my childhood. Um, and thus the theater. All right. Save me. What's next?
Mariann: Alright, we have this, um, we were told about this, uh, social media channel and it's called Woof Pet.
Jasmin: Hmm
Mariann: and, uh, it's at... Well, we'll put the, we'll put the link in the, um,
Jasmin: In the show notes, yeah
Mariann: notes. Thank you. And it's a social network app for pets. I assume that you have to intervene and you don't actually give it, uh, to your pets. And, and their mission is to turn love for animals into a movement for a happier, greener world. And, uh, if you wanna get... If you ha- have come to hate social media, maybe this is the one for you because it's got really cute pictures. Not that other social media doesn't have cute pictures of animals.
Jasmin: No, it's good. It's a good one.
Mariann: They have, um... It says, "All the familiar social network features: video uploads, likes, comments, and chats."
Jasmin: Love that.
Mariann: If you wanna get rid of all of that other crap in the world and just focus on the pets, this is the place for you.
Jasmin: All right, there's something else. We got an email from Ximena from Vegan Hacktivists and she says, "I lead Flockwork, a free Vegan Hacktivists project that matches skilled volunteers, designers, writers, developers, researchers with animal advocacy orgs that need the help, and it's a real on-ramp for people who want to put their skills to work for animals.
Flockwork is just part of the movement to expand movement Infrastructure to build things that can help people find their place in the movement and figure out how they can actually help." This is-- this speaks really to the core of Our Hen House and really why we originally started it, and I'm very excited about that, so check out Flockwork, and we will...
Mariann: It used to be our tagline, which we gave up at some point, a place to find...
Jasmin: A place to find our way to change the world for animals. And it just, it became Change the World for Animals, which is easier to say and remember. But, uh, yeah. And speaking of changing the world for animals, give us the next one.
Mariann: It's-- This is our last reminder, I think, before the big day, uh, the, the upcoming protest, which is this month, September 12th to 26th. It's a very long protest here in New York State where we live, uh, and it's called the March to Abolish Animal Testing. So it's 14 days, 207-mile protest culminating at the infamous animal breeding and testing facility known as Marshall BioResources, uh, in, in North Rome, New York.
And you can join for the whole thing, but you don't have to join for the whole thing. You don't have to walk for 14 days. You can walk for as much as you want. To learn more, go to marchforanimals.org.
Jasmin: And I think that we're speaking at one of the organizing events, like either before or after the event. I'm not... Yeah, very briefly speaking.
Mariann: And, and I don't know what's organized about it, so, so I'm not sure where or when or if it will be.
Jasmin: We'll be somewhere in...
Mariann: be there if, if, if it
Jasmin: If, if it happens, we'll be there. All right. Well, that was a lot, uh, and thank you all for tuning in, and don't forget to subscribe and like and comment on your favorite podcatcher or on YouTube. You can, as I mentioned, become a flock member at ourhenhouse.org/support. And special thanks to Vicki Beechler for producing this episode and to Jen Riley for helping Our Hen House go.
We'll talk to you next time.
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