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App not listed? Try this RSS linkOn this episode of The Hen Report, Mariann talks with recent University of Wisconsin-Madison graduate Ryan Blum about his solo, year-in-the-making undercover investigation into the campus’s Meat Science and Animal Biologics Discovery building, where he captured rare footage of pigs being stunned using CO2 gas chambers. Ryan breaks down how the process works, why it directly contradicts the university’s own claims that it’s “calm” and “humane,” and what he’s now doing — including a new on-campus awareness campaign — to push for the facility’s closure.
- A UW-Madison graduate secretly investigated his own university’s slaughterhouse, capturing rare footage of pigs being gassed with CO2 in an underground chamber
- The footage directly contradicts UW-Madison professors’ public claims that CO2 stunning is a “calm, relaxing, and humane” process
- CO2 concentrations used are so high (85-90%) that pigs visibly panic, gasping and reacting in pain before losing consciousness
- The investigator has since joined Allied Scholars for Animal Protection (ASAP) and launched a campus-wide poster and social media campaign to expose the facility
RESOURCES
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INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Mariann Sullivan: Welcome to The Hen Report. This is Mariann Sullivan. Jasmin couldn't be here today, but I am so excited to have a guest who you are really going to want to hear from, Ryan Blum. And this is an insane breaking story, so, uh, I'm super excited to do this interview.
Just before I get to it, just a quick reminder, Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesdays, The Hen Report on Thursdays, the long-form interview on Fridays, bonus for Flock members, Mondays.
And we're podcasts and we're on YouTube, so please subscribe, hit like, and comment wherever you listen. It re- I know it's annoying because everybody says it all the time, but it really does make a difference. All right, Ryan Blum is here. He is a recent graduate of the University of Wisconsin-Madison, and there he was the founder and president of the Alternative Protein Project and ran the local chapter of Allied Scholars for Animal Protection.
And he has a, this incredible breaking story about an investigation he conducted on campus, and he's here to tell us about it. Uh, Ryan, let's, let's start with the story. I, I wa- I want to get a little bit of your background, but let's start with the story and, and then go into the, to the past. What-- How did this all start, and what were you investigating?
This is just you, right? This wasn't some organization that you were working for.
Ryan Blum: Correct. You know, despite the fact that I spent so much time with ASAP as a student and I actually work there now, I did this totally independently without anyone knowing till after it happened, which was part of the difficulty, which I'm sure we'll get into later more. But also, once again, thank you so much for, for having me on.
Uh, this is the, the campaign launch day is today, so I'm super excited to actually be on this platform to be able to announce it.
Mariann: Well, we're excited too.
Ryan Blum: this
Mariann: We're mutually, we're mutually, uh, excited.
Ryan Blum: It all started on, uh, Halloween day of 2024. So October 31st, I already an animal rights activist, already passionate about this. You know, I knew generally how slaughterhouses worked. I'd seen documentaries before, and I knew my university actually had a slaughterhouse. And I was just walking, you know, on the public, you know, street, you know, just, you know, walking around my campus.
And I noticed that next to the slaughterhouse, in the back of the slaughterhouse, there was these big liquid CO2 tanks.
Mariann: Right. So, so it's obvious there's a slaughterhouse there. They're not trying to hide that?
Ryan Blum: Yeah. They're, not trying to hide that. Um, and in fact, and we can get into this more too, they're, they're very pr- uh, proud of this facility. It's called the Meat Science and Animal Biologics Discovery building, and it's right on campus, MSABD. when it was built, it was proclaimed to be, um, essentially the most modern meat science building in the entire world. It was finished construction, I believe, in 2019 or 2020. Um, some say it's the most complicated building built in Wisconsin. so it's really state-of-the-art. So if your thing is factory farming, your thing is uh, meat safety, meat quality, meat research, and you're all about meat, this is the building for you. Of course, if you're the victim of this, one of the animals, it's the opposite of that. It's horror.
Mariann: It's a slaughterhouse, but obviously w- from what you're saying, they're, they also do science there, research. But are, do they also slaughter animals and, uh, and, uh, is the, use the, um, the dead bodies as food?
Ryan Blum: Correct, and that's the primary, um, most of the animals that go through that, that building are, are for
Mariann: So it's just meat. It's... Yeah. Okay.
Ryan Blum: There's a, a club on campus called Varsity Meats. They have a shop in the building, and the building is set up into a couple different sections. There's like a food safety section, there's the slaughterhouse, there's like the front lobby, and there's like classrooms in the building too. And in the front lobby section, there's a shop called Varsity Meats. Lots of the meat, if not all, I'm not totally sure, um, at this point, the meat sold in that shop comes from the slaughterhouse there, including the pigs, including the pigs stunned in the CO2 chamber.
Mariann: It's not all pigs?
Ryan Blum: It's not all pigs.
They also do sheep, uh, chickens to a certain extent, cows as well.
Mariann: Okay. Well, you know, so often we say if, if people, like, really got up close or, you know, the slaughterhouse had glass walls, this one doesn't exactly have glass walls, but, but you go into the slaughterhouse, to the Varsity Meats shop and buy meat, you pretty much know you're buying dead animals. There's no...
It's pretty obvious. Anyway, um, so all right. So I, I, I'm interrupting you too much. Tell us the story. Like, you were there, you were walking down the street, you're passing the slaughterhouse as one does.
Ryan Blum: And I saw it and, you know, the first thing... And, and to give some more context, I went vegan when I was about, when I was 15 in, in spring of 2020, right, right around when COVID hit. Um, I was a sophomore year of high school. We went online. and long story short, when I went vegan, the seeing the gas chambers of the pigs was like something that struck a nerve with me especially.
I mean, that was like one of the final things was like, "I've got to do this whole vegan thing. This is crazy. You know, what are we doing as human beings to these, you know, innocent beings? Doing something so aesthetically barbaric as these gas chambers." Odds are, you know, my luck, I end up going to the only university in the entire country that claims to kill pigs in CO2 chambers.
Mariann: I've seen, you know, footage, the, the little foota- very little footage there has been up until now of CO2 footage, and I've heard that that's CO2 stunning of, of, of pigs, and I've heard that that's what happens, but I don't know a lot about pig slaughter. Is that the...
That's not the only way that pigs are slaughtered? Uh, is there also an electrocution thing? Have I heard that? Uh, so this is just, this is just one of the, of the methods?
Ryan Blum: Yeah. This is the, the most common, especially in the US, in, um, most, you know, countries with pretty, like, modern slaughterhouse equipment. this is by far the most common. Um, I don't know the exact stat off the top of my head. I think it's, like, around 86, 90% of pigs in the US, don't quote me on that, but are, are stunned in CO2. and actually at this very facility, just mere feet away from the CO2 gas chamber, they actually have electrical stunning that they use for pigs and other animals too.
Mariann: 'Cause they like to teach it all?
Ryan Blum: You gotta have it both ways.
Mariann: Okay.
Ryan Blum: Can't just do one, so you have to, you know...
Mariann: Okay
Ryan Blum: Yeah. Anyway, so I knew from that moment on, I was just like, I got hit with this curiosity about what's going on in my school's chamber. And also they posted on the website that they have the CO2 stunning method. Um, so you know, they obviously don't post, you know, the footage like, you know, that I got, but I wouldn't say it's fair to say that they completely hide it away and don't admit to this. They're almost in a way proud of their facility. So proud, in fact, that what ultimately made this possible for me was the fact that they give in-person... They, they do a variety of things. They, one, they give in-person tours of the facility. They have an on- on YouTube, they have an online video tour of the entire facility, head to toe, every single room, including the room of the slaughterhouse.
You don't see any animals in that, but they have a walkthrough video of the entire thing. It's still on YouTube. I don't know if they're gonna delete it now. We'll see. Um, they have students who work in the facility, and I spent my college days talking to hundreds, if not thousands, of students on campus, right? Um, and you know, the, the blueprints are publicly online. It's a public campus. You can go walk right up to it. So, um, although it was, you know, the most difficult thing I think I've ever done, it took over a year of planning to find a way and sneak inside and do this. I don't think it's, um... the university, I don't think should be shocked that someone you know, given their transparency because they're so proud of this. shouldn't be shocked that someone, um, was determined enough to go in and actually do it.
Mariann: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like the way they were saying it, they should've been fine with it.
Ryan Blum: Yeah.
Mariann: I mean...
Ryan Blum: and, and there's, um, professors, um, claiming, um, for example, Professor Jeff Sindelar, um, this is his quote, but I don't mean to, like, target him as an individual specifically more than others. But he is quoted saying, "It's a very calm, relaxing, and humane process," referring to the CO2 chamber, um, at the school.
They call it, you know, just rendering the animals, you know, unconscious.
Mariann: Is it, is it like widely considered like the, the preferred modern way of slaughtering pigs?
Ryan Blum: You know, it depends who you ask. Um, you know, if you ask an animal rights activist like myself, I think the third option is just don't slaughter.
Mariann: Well, yeah, I, I mean, uh, uh, leaving that, leaving that aside.
Ryan Blum: You know, in, in the industry, um, you know, they're, they're balancing things. So they're trying to balance welfare to some extent, but they're also trying to balance efficiency.
They're trying to balance not only animal welfare, but they're trying to balance cost as well. So the most... best thing for their welfare, you know, not kill them. But if you're gonna kill them, there are other ways that could be better for their welfare. Still, of course, not justified, better for their welfare.
So their balancing all those things and it just so happens to be CO- CO2 chambers is the balance that the industry decided on.
Mariann: And but they kind of, or, or maybe they don't. I mean, I, I'm, uh, um, I guess I'm asking, they kind of... Do they kind of promote it as this is the best way, even for the animals? Yeah.
Ryan Blum: This is the best way. This is the, the most modern way.
Mariann: Yeah, yeah. Is it used for other animals or is it just for pigs? Did I already ask that? I don't know.
Ryan Blum: In-- I think you asked about this facility as a whole, but for the CO2 chamber, they claim in the, the video that they posted that they use it for, uh, sheep as well.
I think they even say small cattle and quote "poultry to a certain extent," whatever that means.
Mariann: Okay. So, um, all right. So, so there you are, and, and you, you made a plan, and it was a very long-term process, and you decided to get in. Um, h- I, I'm, I'm not sure what I should ask you about what you can reveal.
Ryan Blum: I'm happy to just to tell more about it.
Mariann: Yeah, what you can... Well, all right, then tell us the whole story, what you can reveal about how you got in, and once you were in, how you gained access to the actual area, 'cause you said it's a very complicated building.
It probably, there weren't, probably weren't signs to, uh, "Pig slaughter this way."
Ryan Blum: Lots of biosecurity, you know, key card access on, you know, the, the, the doors generally, that sort of thing. Um, you know, the... You know, when I began planning, I kept, you know, trying to figure out different ways in. Okay, I can go at this time, I have to go in this way, I need to avoid, you know, this area because this person's gonna walk by. And I had to do all this stuff because keep in mind, this investigation, unlike most investigations in slaughterhouses or labs, where a lot of them, a lot of times you hire someone to work there. You know,
Mariann: Right. Right. That's, that's the standard, uh, undercover investigation, yeah.
Ryan Blum: And that's not what happened here. Um, and so I kept figuring out different ways in. There were so many times where I got close. I'm like, "Okay, I figured out the plan. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna go here." And I was like, "Wait, this isn't gonna work for this reason." And I had to go back to the drawing board. And this kept happening again. Week after week, month after month, until finally, um, in the winter of 2026, it finally clicked.
I'm like, "Okay, think I can do this. I don't see any holes in this plan and I executed that process. But, um, it-- not everything went, uh, totally as planned. At the advice of my lawyers, um, like hyper-specific details about, you know, exactly when I went in and, you know, what I did in there, you know, I'm gonna, you know, keep to
Mariann: myself.
Yes, please only tell us what you can tell us. That's all.
Ryan Blum: Yeah. But, um, it was definitely the hardest thing I've done. I think, you know, what was really hard was especially, you know, keeping this to myself, um, you know, from my friends, from my family. I mean, as we are talking right now, my own parents don't know. They'll probably find out tonight or some other point.
And you know, my, I, I mean, I didn't-- although I didn't, uh, literally live with my girlfriend, I had a single, you know, apartment my senior year. Um, and you know, there was a lot of times where, like, you know, we've since broken up since then, but, um, like she didn't even know. People who lived with me multiple days a week.
So being able to keep that so secret from those people was, you know, very, very difficult. And I did this 'cause, you know, I didn't want, you know, to get others, you
know, caught up in this sort of thing. It was a very personal
mission for me. And when I did it, I didn't expect this whole campaign thing to come after.
That idea came this summer.
Mariann: Alright, so but, but before we get to the campaign, like let's hear the story. Like how'd you get in? To the extent you can tell us, how'd you get in, and of course, what did you see?
Ryan Blum: Yeah. Um, so, you know, I would use information that I was able to, to pluck from the video and the in-person tours and all that. Um, and that informed me on, like, the right time to go in. Because if you watch these videos, the, especially that YouTube video tour, like, they give you so much information. Um, it's like if you had to ask, like, ok, how does one break into a facility? They're just like listing it. Um, so that allowed me to go inside.
So I snuck inside, and one of the things that I think, you know, was also difficult was when I came back out and I looked at the footage I got, um, I was a little disappointed, to be totally frank. The reason is because I managed to capture so little. You know, the... remember I, when I went vegan in, you know, 2020, and I re-remember I watched Dominion, um, like, that, the documentary, and they've got gas chamber footage there. You know, they show a lot of it, and there's the footage in California, the first footage of that in US history, and I think there's hours and hours of that. And I wanted to record a lot more, but just how the na- not everything went very smoothly when I went in. Again, this is, I'm a rookie at this. This is not, like, my, you know, I'm not an experienced, experienced investigator. So I just sort of get in and get out, and I wasn't able to get, um, as much as I wanted. Yet, I still was able to capture, um, I think it was under 30 seconds where you can really see the pigs. the entirety of what I captured is around 83 seconds, but most of that you can't even see the pigs in there. The audio also I think speaks for itself. But, um, I got the footage. Um, I downloaded it...
Mariann: So before, before you tell us that, like I remember from the one in California, like there was this whole elevator thing where they lower the pigs. Was that the same as the setup that you were dealing with? Can you just describe that a little bit without being too gruesome, but, uh, just describe for us what these pigs go through?
Ryan Blum: Yeah. So when they, uh, enter the chamber, um, there's an elevator box kinda like we mentioned, and it submerges them into the ground. I think it's either like 13 or 15 feet deep. Um, they get into the ground, and the carbon, um, dioxide, it's a really high percentage of gas. It's like 85, 90% cO2, which is really, really high.
If it was a way smaller, um, they might more gradually sort of pass out. Because the percentage is so high, they absolutely freak out. As you can see from the video, they're kicking, they're screaming. You know, it
Mariann: They're suffocating
Ryan Blum: There's-- Yeah. uh, you know, veterinarians have told me it would be sort of like if you feel like you're sort of burning from the inside.
Mariann: Oy vey.
Ryan Blum: The moisture in their body sort of like reacts like with like carbonic acid, and it's very painful for their eyes, their mouth, their nose. So, um, you know, obviously, you know, I, I don't believe, um, in slaughtering of sentient, you know, innocent sentient beings, right? Who've done nothing wrong to us.
But this is, uh, you know, particularly cruel and particularly, you know, unknown. You know, despite the university saying they do this, you know, I've talked to dozens of students today already in the first launch they came in. Nobody knows this goes on, um, on their campus. You know, ex- you know, except for maybe a couple students who work in the facility.
Mariann: Well, I, I mean, not to interrupt your story, but I just have to for a second. From that book Every Twelve Seconds, which is about cow slaughter, and it's a totally different thing, but he makes the point that the, the, the person who puts the, the cow into the chute where their, their, their throat is gonna be slit is separate from the person who, um, who, who stuns...
Now, the person who stuns them is separate from the person who cuts their throat, so that even the people who work there and are doing the slaughter don't actually see the whole thing.
Ryan Blum: Yeah, I think most, um... I g- I can't verify, like, down to the exact number, but I think most of the, the students who work in the building aren't really even in that, in that room, or certainly aren't always doing the slaughtering. There's a plant operation manager by the name of Dylan Walker. I'm on so little sleep, so apologies if I got the name wrong, but it's, it's on the internet. Dylan Walker, I believe he does most of the actual, um, stunning/ you know, slaughtering. Um, but lots of students work in the facility.
Mariann: Can I... So, so they lower them into the, uh, with this elevator into, like, a pit in the ground 13 feet down. They, they render them unconscious by flooding CO2 in there, which is a very painful process. Then how do they die? Are, like, does somebody then slit their throats?
Ryan Blum: Yeah, so the
Mariann: Sorry, everybody, but, you know, we gotta pin this down.
Ryan Blum: The gas makes them go unconscious. They go back up, they get rolled out onto s- kind of like a big tray. they get shackled upside down and then are just, you know, bleed out.
They're cut and then bleed out. Um, and that's how they technically die.
Mariann: Do they ever, uh, you know, there's always stories about, about certainly with chickens, I mean, who are conscious when they're slaughtered. Does that ever happen with pigs? That they don't... Or, or you, I mean, there's no reason you would know that just because of,
Ryan Blum: Yeah, I mean, I'm not, you know,
Mariann: yeah, world's expert on slaughter, yeah
Ryan Blum: Um, but, um, it wouldn't surprise me if there's some of that. My guess would be maybe a bit less for pigs than chickens, but I don't know. I don't know the answer to that.
Mariann: Um, all right, so you, you got footage. You're, you're a little disappointed with it, but you did get the basics. You, you got 30 seconds of the actual, um,
Ryan Blum: Yeah
Mariann: actual pigs, uh, being lowered down?
Ryan Blum: Um, you can't... In, in, in what I was managed to capture, um, you can't really see them, like, walk in too much. You could sort of see them before they start reacting violently to the gas for a couple seconds. Um, and it's a little unclear, like, at what point they're sort of being in the lowering stage. But if they're reacting to the gas, they have to be lower, low enough for the gas, yeah.
Mariann: So that's mainly what you wanted to get and what you did get 30 seconds of
Ryan Blum: I was hoping to get like way more of it, like, you know, multiple pigs and multiple batches.
Mariann: What, but they, wait, but what you wanted was this reaction to the gas, the, the, the way... And you mentioned that the sound, I assume that you mean you could hear them screaming,
'cause pigs are extremely vocal. Um, what were the risks if you got caught? And what are the risks, actually, what are the risks now?
Ryan Blum: Yeah. Um, again, like some aspects, you know, I'll refrain myself, you know, given my, my lawyer's advice. I don't think it's like too helpful to like... I mean, too, like problematic to say like, you know, I, you know, they could probably charge me with trespassing. Okay. Like I went into, you know, this building, I planned it, like that's sort of obvious.
Mariann: You might have defenses, but they could charge you with it.
Ryan Blum: Sure. Yeah, charge me with it. Um, I don't know how the schools react. We're gonna find out now.
Mariann: But you have already graduated at least.
Ryan Blum: I already graduated, correct. I did it before I graduated, but I have since graduated, correct.
Mariann: Um, so the university is, as you pointed out, is pretty proud of their, uh, work in this facility and in the slaughterhouse. They're not hiding it. What would you say is the difference between what they are saying or the implications of what they are saying and what you saw?
Ryan Blum: And here's the key difference. Because the UW-Madison professors are quoted saying it's humane uh, quoted saying it's relaxing, that it's calm.
Mariann: Yeah. That's pretty big.
Ryan Blum: I'll let people make up their own mind, you know, mind for the footage, but I think, you know, any person really rationally looking at this,
Mariann: probably
Ryan Blum: there's pretty severe contradiction between what the footage shows and that being called relaxing, humane, or calm.
Whatever that could possibly even mean for slaughter, but especially this, there's just... You know, it's unfathomable
Mariann: Yeah. No, relaxing is, that's a particularly telling, uh, telling quote. I mean, that's what people believe. Um, so what are your hopes for the effect of this footage? And, and, and also how can listeners help if, if... Uh, you s- you mentioned that you're-- I didn't realize you were now working for Allied Scholars for Animal Protection.
Of course, we've had F-
Ryan Blum: Ya
Mariann: We've had Faraz Harsini on the podcast, so people are probably somewhat familiar with it. But, uh, so did you just start working there?
Ryan Blum: I did. You know, I, I started with them earlier in the summer. Um, I worked with them very closely as a chapter leading, leading my chapter there since the start of my sophomore year. So, you know, I had six semesters with them, and I think maybe four semesters in, they're like, "We're gonna bring Ryan on board when you graduate."
So and fortunately, I didn't have to spend a lot of my time job searching, you know, at the end of college and this summer. I just walked right into this job. Obviously, I had to spend a ton of time on this, you know, to get this position. Um, I feel like it's the, you know, it's the ultimate privilege. I feel so privileged that I get to spend almost every minute of my day exactly how I want to.
Not many people on the planet get to spend all their time doing exactly what they want to,
Mariann: It's the truth.
Ryan Blum: To. So I'm super happy for ASAP for giving me the opportunity to do this 'cause I think animal rights, vegan education, um, we can only talk to so many people. It's hard to talk to all eight billion people.
But if we can focus on university students, I think that's where we'll make the most difference per unit of time and, and dollars. So I'm super happy to be working, uh, with them.
Mariann: And what about for the, th- this footage? Do you plan to use it in, in with ASAP work, or do you have other hopes for it? I'm sure you've been very busy today because you only released it today. This actually, for people listening, um, it was on Tuesday that this was released.
Ryan Blum: That was our D-Day, September 8.
Mariann: Yeah. And, and what are your hopes will happen?
Ryan Blum: Yeah. you know, with ASAP too, they can, you know, certainly help, uh, promote the campaign. Like, you know, I went in, I got this footage. There may even not be consequences to me. We'll see. But they can certainly help, you know, just like any slaughter footage out there, you know, they can help, you know, promote it, further vegan education. Um, but you know, truthfully, Faraz, who I'm very close with, nobody knew before I did it, um, that it happened only until after. Um, the hope now is really the, the stage of this campaign is just making sure it is impossible for every single student on my campus, um, to not know about this. just like ASAP's whole goal is to make veganism as a, um, as the concept, as that idea, as that movement unmissable on college campuses with their signs and their posters and their tabling and their education, their social media. I wanna use, you know, what I've perfected that craft over the last couple years for this specific gas chamber. Today we started that immediately. We put up around 300 posters on campus today. We've got 1,000 more being shipped in a couple days. We put up a giant, uh, six foot tall by 12 foot giant sign on our main campus hill.
Mariann: Wow
Ryan Blum: It says UW Madison, uh, campus gas chamber. Got a picture of me saying I snuck in. It's got a QR code to a website where people can watch the footage. They can sign petitions, they can get involved. We put a pink flag, one representing about every pig killed in the gas chamber per year. So now today, and then we'll also have, you know, a social media campaign.
We'll have local journalists, hopefully, you know, other journalists depending, you know, how the school's reaction, it might pick up traction. We'll see. Um, but the, the goal right now is making sure every single student knows about this because they can't take action if they don't know. So knowledge is power, right?
That's step one. But the world doesn't just change from what we know. It changes from our actions. We have to actually do something. I think it's gonna be up to the students, um, to decide how much they wanna push back against this. You know, there's only so much advertisement I can do about this, um, to make the students, you know, upset and outraged about this.
It's gonna be up to them. And this is not just a campaign for vegans or animal rights people. This is for everyone. Every student deserves, one, to know that this happens on their campus, that the meat they're eating in, uh, from Varsity Meats or the dining halls where, you know,nine times out of 10, the pig products there are from gas chambers too. Everyone deserves to know it's from gas chambers, and they can make up their own mind if they buy the university claims that they're humane, or they can see the footage themselves So the first step is make everyone aware.
Mariann: Yeah.
Ryan Blum: Then from there we'll start taking concrete actions to end this gas chamber.
I think that because this is the most modern meat science facility in the world, it's an incredible infrastructure for science and technology, why not flip the script and make it a place for good? Use it for alternative proteins, make plant-based products, fermentation, cultivated things, or even fruits and vegetables.
Use this incredible infrastructure, all of the tens of millions of dollars poured in this facility and have bioreactors have-- make this a place where we can actually advance the food system for more. Better for the environment and our health and for animals and just a more ethical society. Do that instead. So I want to shut down the facility, um, and replace it with something better. And I think the first step to doing that is making people actually aware of what's going on right now.
Mariann: Wow. Very, uh... Y- y- you're very inspiring, Ryan, uh, I have to say. And, you know, I've been doing this a long time, and sometimes it's hard to find that inspiration, but you are so right about the information. Like, it just... we, we wonder all the time why people don't wake up to animals, and when, when it's so clear what's going on.
And even though it's incredibly frustrating, they don't know what's going on. Like, like, people will not know this unless they can't avoid knowing it, and you seem to be making it your business to try to at least make sure they can't avoid knowing, and then they, they make their decision. 'Cause people will avoid it if they can.
Ryan Blum: Yeah.
Mariann: there's a c-
Ryan Blum: I mean, you know, it's to me it's like, you know, with my work as an animal rights activist, you know, on my social media feed, okay, I see the suffering there, I see the suffering that's here. I know about the male chicks. It's like how can I live in a world and people not know about this? But most people don't know gas chambers are a thing for pigs, nevertheless that they know it happens on their campus. Most people we talk to still don't know about, you know, the male chicks in the egg industry, or the, the mother stealing in the dairy industry.
Mariann: Right. Most people think that their meat doesn't come from factory farms. I don't know where they think it came, comes from, but surveys have shown that, that significantly large percentages of people don't think that the meat they buy comes from factory farms. So yeah, information is crucial. It's not the only step, but it-- we tend to forget that it's still the first step because you, you know, like you, my feed is full of it, but you, you can so easily forget that everybody's feed is very different.
Uh, all right. So tell us a little bit more about, you mentioned that you're not only working for Allied Scholars now, but you ran the chapter when you were in school, and Faraz actually told me that, that you were his fav... Well, no, he didn't say that, but you were way up there among, about, with the most ef- among the most effective of, um, chapters.
Uh, so tell us a little bit more about what you did there aside from, you know, 'cause your undercover work wasn't actually even part of that work, so-
Ryan Blum: No. Yeah, it was totally separate. Um, you know, ASAP has three pillars. They do dining hall work, they do education, they do outreach. Investigation is not pillar four, so this was separate. But I... You know, we had a very unique ASAP chapter because there's a lot of schools, not Wisconsin, but schools like Ohio State and other schools where their only animal rights student club is really ASAP.
If there was no ASAP, there'd be no animal rights nothing. And that wasn't actually the case here. When I joined my freshman year, there was an effective altruism group, and although EA covers a lot of issues from animal welfare to AI safety and whatever, um, the group just happened to be full of a bunch of vegans, and they were a very animal-centered EA group. Um, they're a bit more on the welfare side of things whereas I tend to spend time more on the education abolition side of things. But I, I joined EA for a bit. Um, there was another group called Dane for Dogs, which, you know, was a huge part in the early Ridglan, you know, a- and late Ridglan, too. Then, um, there was a new branch of effective altruism called, uh, Animal Advocacy or Effective Animal Advocacy that broke off to be their own sister group. And I actually became president of that other Animal Advocacy group at the same time I started my ASAP chapter. So I was actually running two clubs at once, once. And actually, at the very same time that happened, I founded the Good Food Institute's All Protein- Alternative Protein Project chapter as well. And I was on the EA exec board. So the s- fall of my sophomore year...
Mariann: Did you get any schoolwork done since you were also planning an undercover investigation during this time?
Ryan Blum: My parents may be listening to this, so I got lots of schoolwork done. No, I, I, I, you know, I, I was not a straight A student, and I think if-- I would have loved if I could take one or two classes as opposed to four or five a semester at a time, so I could get really immersed in that work. And I actually would record my time, how much of my time I spent on club stuff versus school stuff. Every semester, it got more and more like the club and less and less of the schoolwork.
Mariann: Yeah.
Ryan Blum: But I, I connected all my schoolwork really as much as I could. Every essay I wrote where I had any creative freedom, any report was some way back to, you know, what animals go through and, and, you know, the food system.
And one of my certificates, they don't do minors at UW-Madison. They do certificates which are a little smaller. I had certificates in food systems, global health, political science, and my major was science communication. So my classes were very relevant to this work. Um, but yeah, at the beginning of my sophomore year, I was spread pretty thin.
I was like president of three different clubs at once and founder of two and doing a bunch of other stuff. And then every semester after, I sort of narrowed more and more to just the Alternative Protein Project and ASAP to by the time I was at my senior year, it was really just ASAP. Partly also because this investigation was taking a bunch of my time as well. But because there was so many animal stuff going on at my campus, ASAP played an absolutely essential part in that, and they were doing something that at the time, the other clubs weren't really doing, which I thought was to really try to change the culture, actually make more vegans and actually challenge and talk to students. Versus the other clubs, I thought they did great work, but they mainly were fellowship based or had potlucks and community events, which are great for like the vegan animal community. But they weren't actually like trying to
change the university and, and, you know, change the culture in some like serious way. So I knew when I learned about ASAP, I had to start my chapter, you know, and get active immediately. Um, but things really exploded, um, through two things. One, Madeline Krasno, the former primate lab, um...
Mariann: she's been on the podcast as well.
Ryan Blum: Yeah. So she started coming to our campus, and we started working with her, and that brought up a lot of attention.
You know, we made a big giant flag that we'd have at our student org fair and tabling, calling out the university for their imprisonment of the monkeys. People really connected with that because of people like are very against animal experimentation and testing at our school. I think it's a little easier to talk to people about that because if you tell them, you know, monkeys and dogs are being experimented and harmed as opposed to cows and chickens, well, a lot of times there's supply and demand, they're causing that with the cows and chickens, so they build up this wall of defensiveness just a little bit.
So it's a little bit easier, as you know, with the experiment stuff. So, we had Maddie come, and then everything obviously exploded with Ridgeland.
Mariann: Of course
Ryan Blum: Ridglan, you know, wasn't at UW-Madison, but it was, you know, the town next over. UW Madison had, you know, bought dogs from there, I believe.
It brought so many activists into town. mean, I would say like in terms of crazy events happening at my school for animal rights, it like exponentially exploded in '25, 2026, so and then of course leading up to this as well.
Mariann: It just, I mean, it just shows how contagious these things can be. I, 'cause the original people didn't start out thinking that they were gonna change the culture at all at University of Wisconsin I, I, I assume, but, but, but there you go. It's, it's very powerful.
Ryan Blum: You can't walk on campus without... I mean, they might not recognize Ridglan by name, but they know about the beagle rescue. They know something about it. Um, cool side story, when April 18th attempted rescue, like the really big one when like a hundred activists tried to storm Ridglan was going on, I figured, okay, well, if there's gonna be hundreds of people trying to rescue these dogs, there should be at least one person on campus doing some vegan education.
So, um, normally we... One of our tabling exercises we do for ASAP is we have a big footage with a t- you know, TV screen showing slaughterhouses or labs, general animal exploitation footage. I decided to do something different. I actually li- took the live stream from Unchained TV or what Jamie Logan was doing, and I put it on the TV, had a big sign that says, "Animal liberation happening live." And I had conversations about veganism and animal rights the same exact way, but with, with that. Those are some of the best conversations I every had and that was a really cool experience. But it was the same semester as when I broke in and did my thing, and, um, having to balance like... 'Cause, you know, a lot of my, my pals were like pretty involved with Ridglan, and like they didn't know about this thing I was up to so there was a lot of like trying to navigate the social dynamics of like, you know, "Where you at?"
I'm like, "I'm off doing this other thing that, you know, you don't know about at all.
So there, there, there was some of that going on.
Mariann: Yeah, no, it's a really unusual story. People don't usually go off and do something that complex and dramatic on, on their own. They're usually part of a, of an organization. Though I did-- I, I, what you were saying about that does kind of resonate with the talk of, um, you know, people who go undercover in s- in factory farms and who work there for a p- long period of time.
There's something of the same sense of isolation and, you know, wanting to be friends with people and, and knowing that you're, you're, you're doing something totally different. It's a, it's a, it's a complex human, uh, experience. The, the university has not-- I mean, at least I know with-- there was some of the Ridglan activists who the university sort of went after for, for flyers they put up and, and, and so they haven't...
Ryan Blum: that was the other animal advocacy club that years ago, not anymore, during which I was president of and then someone else took over that.
But yeah, they were got investigated...
Mariann: So the university doesn't seem necessarily to be very sympathetic. Though you know, I guess it's a big place and opinions differ.
Ryan Blum: It differs totally from person to person, from admin to admin.
Mariann: So, uh, I was going to ask, I was gonna complete this interview with saying what's next for you, but we kinda know you're gonna work for ASAP. Do you know what you're gonna be doing there?
Ryan Blum: Well, you know, they originally hired me, I'd say in short my job description was to improve the quality of each chapter, help make it even more unmissable for veganism on each campus, and then increase the quality... I mean, the quantity of chapters we have. Make more schools and make the schools we have better. Long term, I'm still doing that, uh, but I am gonna be s- You know, I was gonna originally travel across the country and do that. Now I'm based in, in Madison, um, for this campaign, the pigs. I still work with ASAP. I still help them with lots of different stuff um, but they're giving me some freedom to, to spend my time doing this, which I really appreciate, and they'll help promote it as well.
But I, I give a lot of thanks to them because, you know, they believe in me so much. You know, it's a lot for them to... You know, I was 21 when I snuck in. I'm 22 now. It's a lot of them to... You know, they hired me not to do this. Originally, they hired me to help their chapters, which I'll be doing a little bit, but, you know, they're taking a risk on, you know, having me do this.
You know, they have plenty of work to do. So giving me the freedom to do this is something I appreciate, and I think, you know, took a building of a relationship for years of good work with them to be able to do. and I'm just so grateful that they exist as an organization. I think if I, like, dreamt up my dream animal rights organization, you know, back at the start of college before I learned about ASAP, it would look pretty darn similar to this.
Mariann: Well, that's, uh, uh, that's really great to hear, and I really like the way you describe the animal rights, not even animal welfare, animal conscious, uh, culture at the university. It's really a microcosm of the way it is in the world. There's different people doing very different things, and each person has to find the right niche for them, and it sounds like, uh, you have found it.
I, I, I mean, we'll be keeping an eye on what happens and how the university responds. I assume you haven't heard anything yet back from the university. I assume they, um, they will be responding?
Ryan Blum: There was, um, a reporter who I talked to earlier today. So again, this is all happening on September 8th, sort of afternoon, sort of live, and the reporter called me up and said the university called him and was basically saying like, "How do we know that the footage is from us?" And I basically told him like, "You know, there's only so much. I wanna balance with, you know, giving my lawyers advice I wanna share, but, you know, think of it this way, right? You posted a, an online video tour of the entire facility. You had in-person walking tours. You posted the blueprints. You did all these things. Is it that surprising that a dedicated student would find a way to get in there? Especially, like this is my life's mission, right?"
Mariann: It's pretty weak sauce, uh, that if that's the f- I mean, that's the, that's what they always say. But really, I mean, okay, if, if you think it's not from you, why don't you open the doors and we'll go in and we'll look what yours looks like that it's so different from this. Uh, it's pretty easy, easy to resolve.
Ryan Blum: Yeah. Um, only, the one very thing I thought about is if for some reason, like I don't think they're gonna poss- do this, I'd be surprised, but if for some reason they're like, "We'll film it," you know, or something like that, I'd be worried that they're gonna lower the concentration of the gas to the point where they just fall asleep slowly or something like that.
But no, it's, I mean, I don't like... I don't know what there is to deny. Like, you have this gas chamber. I have footage inside this gas chamber. You can see like it's not that un- you know, it's, yeah, it, it's wild. But we'll see what happens. And then that's not any official statement. That was just something the reporter told me.
Mariann: Right. And it is, it's always the, the first response, uh, from, from any place, but it sounds like that, that might be a pretty weak one for them. Uh, I'm not sure how they'll respond, but, uh, I hope, I hope they respond gently, uh, as far as you're concerned, because, you know, they don't need that kind of agenda to be making you the focus, so making you a victim.
So let's hope that doesn't happen, and that your-
Ryan Blum: There's a very easy way out for them. Um, work with us to, to build progress and, and don't do this anymore. Um, you know, I don't even... you know, I, I like to take, I think, a nuanced, reasonable view of I don't think the people doing this, you know, you know, as far as I'm concerned now, are, you know, uniquely evil people by any means. I think this is just their way of life. This is how they, you know, run their operations. That doesn't make it any less, you know, that doesn't make it any better for the victims, and that's who I'm here to speak up for, the animals. Um, but I want to work with them to end this, this horrible facility, move past this.
I think it's gonna be a stain on the university for now, but I think long-term, the quicker they can get away from this, they can be a leader in, in compassion for a food system.
Mariann: Oh, that w- it, it's really inspiring, and I really hope something happens. And I like, really like the way that you talk about it, and, um, I, I think there's a lot of promise there. And, you know, y- you had said before that most of the students who work there probably don't know what, how bad it really is. Uh, probably most of the people who work there don't, you know, like on- probably only a few people are really very familiar, and maybe they really are shocked, uh, about. about how dreadful it is, and maybe they should do something about it.
Uh, thanks so much for joining us today, Ryan. We will certainly be keeping an eye on your story and, and wishing the best and wishing success. And, uh, it's really, uh, I, I've s- I think I've said it three times bef- but I'm gonna say it again, very inspirational. And I just feel like we are living in times that are dreadful in so many ways, but they are times of change, and if this is the moment to take that, uh, and, and make it happen for the animals as well.
So thanks for doing it, and thanks for joining us today. It was my pleasure. Uh-
Ryan Blum: Thanks for all that you're doing hosting all, all these guests and, and me included.
Mariann: Well, it's not, it's not q- it's not quite as painful as going into a pig slaughterhouse. So it's, it's a little easier. But, uh, thank you. That's very sweet.
Um, all right, everybody, uh, just a reminder, there's an upcoming protest starting this weekend, September 12th through 26th, here in New York State, where we live.
It's called the March to Abolish Animal Testing, and will be a 14-day, 207-mile protest. People are gonna walk 207 miles, culminating at the infamous animal breeding and testing facility known as Marshall BioResources in North Rome, New York. And here's the thing, you can join for the whole thing, but you don't have to join for the whole thing.
You can join for as short a period as you want. Just be part of it if you're anywhere in the area or you can travel to the area. And I called it a protest, but it's really more, it's an incredibly powerful demonstration of compassion and of the kind of work that so many people are doing. To learn more, go to marchforanimals.org.
And, don't forget to tune in to Rising Anxieties, uh, the Hen Report, and the long-form interview on Fridays. And, um, and don't, don't forget to subscribe. And thank you for joining us today. I am sure you are glad you did because, uh, even though Jasmin wasn't here, this conversation with Ryan was important and will lead to, uh, important things.
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