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App not listed? Try this RSS linkThis week on The Hen Report, we talk with poet and activist Gretchen Primack and Sexy Fit Vegan founder Ella Magers about the March to Abolish Animal Testing — a 207-mile trek across upstate New York from Albany to Marshall BioResources, the country’s largest breeder of dogs, cats, ferrets, and pigs for animal experimentation. They dig into the logistics of supporting dozens of marchers, the emotional and physical sacrifices involved, and why this grassroots movement could be a turning point for ending animal testing for good.
- The March to Abolish Animal Testing: A 207-mile, two-week march from Albany, NY to Marshall BioResources protesting animal testing on dogs, cats, ferrets, and pigs
- Marshall BioResources exposed: New whistleblower evidence reveals conditions at the facility, home to over 16,000 beagles and 45,000+ animals bred for experimentation
- Grassroots organizing in action: How a 3-month-old idea became a fully logistics-supported march with food teams, team captains, and nightly community events
- A public, arrest-free protest strategy: Why the march is intentionally 100% law abiding and focused on public pressure and legislative change rather than civil disobedience
- Get involved: How listeners can join the walk, attend the September 26th finale at Marshall BioResources, organize solidarity walks, or follow along via @MarchforAnimals and Unchained TV
RESOURCES
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INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
Jasmin Singer: Welcome to The Hen Report from Our Hen House. I'm Jasmin Singer
Mariann Sullivan: I'm Mariann Sullivan
Jasmin Singer: And today we are so thrilled to be speaking once again to animal advocate and poet and friend and badass Gretchen Primack, and Sexy Fit Vegan founder Ella Magers, who is also badass and hopefully a friend to be.
I mean, no pressure, but, like, yeah, a lot of pressure. Uh, we're gonna be speaking about the March to Abolish Animal Testing, which is going on right now.
So welcome to The Hen Report, and thank you for making time for us.
Gretchen Primack: Yeah. Well, we are thrilled to be here, both in the, on the trail, on the march, and on Our Hen House.
Ella Magers: Thanks for having us.
Jasmin Singer: I am honestly gobsmacked and, uh, just truly in awe. I've been following you closely online, and I, I am so excited to hear from the front lines what's going on there. Before we get to that, just a quick reminder to our listeners and our viewers about the Our Hen House podcasts. Rising Anxieties comes out on Tuesday.
The Hen Report, which is this, comes out on Thursdays, and the long-form interview comes out on Fridays. Bonus content for flock members comes out on Mondays, and we're on YouTube. We're also, if you're more into audio, although you'll miss the opportunity to see these lovely faces. I don't mean me and Mariann.
I mean our guests.
Mariann Sullivan: I beg your pardon
Jasmin Singer: Ours are fine. Our faces are fine, but theirs are, like, shining and effervescent. Uh, y- we are on YouTube as well for those of you who want to catch that effervescence, 'cause it is contagious. So don't forget to hit Subscribe, hit Like, comment wherever you listen. All right, here we are.
Here we go. I would imagine that by now everyone knows what the march is, but just in case someone's, like, listening to this, you know, f- in the far
Mariann Sullivan: Who the hell are these people? What are they talking about?
Jasmin Singer: And I don't know, if AI hasn't killed humanity or, uh, or, or whatever by then, tell us what the march is briefly, and then we're gonna really get into the weeds.
Ella Magers: Yeah. We are trekking 207 miles across upstate New York from Albany all the way to Marshall BioResources, which is the country's largest breeder of, uh, dogs for animal experimentation. They also breed cats and ferrets and pigs. We're talking 16,000- over 16,000 beagles, and, uh, in total over 45,000 animals at that facility all being bred to be sold into experimentation.
Uh, and new whistleblower evidence that has come out has really shown us the horrors that are happening inside that facility. So we are here to raise awareness, raise consciousness in this country about animal testing in general, and, uh, specifically Marshall BioResources. We are out to put the pressures on the powers that be to make changes to the systems that allow such cruelty to take place.
And, uh, we are gonna, we are gonna march. We are going to fight until every cage is empty.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I, I really want to get more into the whole theory and, and, and how this change is going to occur, 'cause I think, I think this is a really big deal. I mean, obviously it's a big deal for what it is, but this is an entirely new tactic for this movement, and I think it's very powerful, and we're already seeing that happen.
But before we get into, like, talking about all of the theory behind it, I'll, I'd, I, I just want some facts. Like, what is it like? Tell, first tell us a little bit about the people. Who's on the march with you for, for, how many miles is it? Like, 206 miles?
Gretchen Primack: 207. 207. Give us that last mile, Mariann. Come on.
Mariann Sullivan: 207. All right.
Jasmin Singer: 207
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, that last mile, like, what if you stopped at 206?
Gretchen Primack: Oh my God.
Mariann Sullivan: just 'cause I said that?!
Jasmin Singer: Listen, the 207th mile is gonna be pretty close to Rochester. I will come there and put you on my back and carry you for the last mile.
Gretchen Primack: Yes. Oh!
Jasmin Singer: Both of you, if I need to.
Mariann Sullivan: I wanna knoww who's there for the duration, and who are you picking up along the way, and how long are they... You know, the whole, the, the people. Tell us about the people.
Gretchen Primack: The people are-- I, I referred to them earlier today as luminous beings. We stand in a circle every morning and, like, just look at each other and think about how incredible this is and, like, state an intention and have little, you know, "Is anybody new today?" "Yes, I'm new." Um, you know, we have three new people today join us.
Um, I would say it's a core group of around 50, 40 to 50, and they are from everywhere. They are from-- Okay, not everywhere. At, at the Albany kickoff there was somebody from Japan.
Mariann Sullivan: Oh my God!
Gretchen Primack: is from all over the country and
Jasmin Singer: And the amazing thing is they walked all the way from Japan. It's
Gretchen Primack: Unbelievable. Unbe- The dedication The dedication is real. The dedication is real. Yeah, so it's, you know, and some people are seasoned activists. Some people are very new to activism. A lot of people are vegan, not everyone is. We certainly hope that by the end everyone is, and people are really, um, open to that and, you know, nobody has a problem with the fact that any sort of food that is sponsored by or, um, donated to or bought by the march is of course vegan And but we're not, you know, policing somebody's handbag.
We're just hoping that by the end their handbag contents change. There was something in their hand. You know, and we, we do want a big tent. Um, so there are people who are extremely zealous about dogs. This happened at Ridglan too, right? El and I were both at Ridglan. We didn't meet... We met on Thursday.
Ella Magers: For the first time in person.
Gretchen Primack: Right? Yeah. Like we've been planning this for three and a half months and we are- have been like joined at the hip on video and yeah. But we met the other day. And it's like it kind of hasn't worn off. Yeah. Maybe a little bit. Anyway, that's who's with us. Just phenomenal people.
Ella Magers: My dad's here.
Gretchen Primack: Oh my God.
Ella Magers: Yeah. My dad, who's
Mariann Sullivan: Oh, wow
Ella Magers: 80 years old. He's... Actually I don't know how old he is. Something like that. Around, around 80 years old. He's doing the entire two weeks. And, uh, yeah.
Mariann Sullivan: Now I feel like such a loser
Ella Magers: Ah. There's, there's from all ages. Yeah, no, well, my dad's ruining that for you.
Gretchen Primack: Yeah, he did have to... He invested in a pair of walking sticks after the first day.
Yeah. He's like, "I think I need some walking sticks," you know? But yeah. And then people are so generous with each other. It's like, "Oh, you have a blister? Hold on." And they like pull out their pack. Oh, yeah. And of course we have for all of the captains we have first aid kits and you know, it's a very... It's a highly organized event.
Ella Magers: Yeah, so my... What my dad said too is he was involved in a lot of marches for, um, civil rights and he was born in s- you know, uh, in that... He was in that era in the '70s. And he made a comment yesterday about how this just felt really different. That he said this, everybody is coming from such a place of, of compassion and service in a way that he had never experienced before.
And he just talked about how extraordinary the vibe is ... here and, and just... And it's true. It's just everybody is looking out for each other. Yeah. You know? This is complicated. There's so many moving pieces and even after the first day people had bloody blisters and, and, you know, we have to figure out food along the way.
We're in rural, you know, rural areas that don't have a lot. So we've gotta, we gotta all work together and be such a tight-knit community, and we just are.
Gretchen Primack: Yeah. Yeah. amazing. And we have a lot of super people. We went to Costco and I was shopping in Costco with, you know, another just luminary from, from the march.
And I was like, "Now listen, Christie, I am a Jew. There will be snacks." There will be f- And like, 'cause she, she was like, "What? Do we need that many?" And I was like, "Listen, you know, we that many. We will probably getting more." You know? Yeah. So we're really, you
Jasmin Singer: We to eat our emotions, Kristy. That's what our people do.
Gretchen Primack: Well, and we're going 15... That's, yeah, that is. But we're also go- we are walking 15 miles a day.
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, can you go into more detail though about the food? 'Cause I don't quite get... I mean, you can't just be going to Costco and buying a few snacks and feeding all these pe- Like, where are people getting their food and, and, and what kind of food is it and, like, what's the story, and how did you plan all of this? It was like two weeks ago you were on this, the podcast, Gretchen, saying, "I think I'm go- do, we should do this." Or maybe it two, not two weeks, but it feels like it.
Gretchen Primack: I'm not sure everybody understands that, that three and a half months ago I was on the Our Hen House podcast. I talked about this batshit crazy idea. I want to do this march. I want to, I want to start in Albany. I want to go to Marshall BioResource. If anybody out there wants to help me, get in touch.
Ella Magers: And there I was on the plane hearing her podcast and knowing that it was me who was supposed to help her. Yeah. Because I'm batshit crazy like that, too, and- I mean, it was like no question. I was like, "Fuck it." Yeah. Oh, no, and then I s- I called her, or we called each other, whatever. Yeah. And, and then I go, "Well, I think we should do it from, from- Yeah.
from DC." That's how batshit crazy I am. Yeah. I said, "Let's do it from DC to
Mariann Sullivan: would be a long stroll.
Ella Magers: with Albany." And I was like, "Eh, fine." But now- Oh ... you know, now like- Yes ... okay, yeah, this was the right call.
Jasmin Singer: You know, it is the, it is the, uh, second person. Or like the, it's the first person who stands up is like vital, but it's the second person that creates the movement. And I, I mean, do you know what I mean? Like, it... Yeah
Gretchen Primack: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so for the food, you know, we did tell everyone we are not... You are responsible for your own food, right? So, so put that out there so that people could start thinking about what are they gonna bring. Um, w- and then we put out guides for where are there supermarkets, where are there vegan-friendly restaurants, you know, at each stop.
We have support drivers who can take people places. But at the same time, it's important that people who may not have planned well enough or are here the entire time also have access to things. That's where, like, very heavy snacking of that we bought nuts, and trail mix, and chocolate, and protein bars, and popcorn, and, you know.
And every day some of that gets put into each of the support vehicles. And then there are water stops and rest stops along the way, and we come out at that point, and people sit down with the sandwiches they brought. The other thing is that on our first night we wanted to have stuff for people so that when they got off that first night of marching, they were not looking for a restaurant, you know?
We kind of catered with Joey at Subculture Vegan Deli in, uh, Albany. And
Mariann Sullivan: God, I love that place
Gretchen Primack: Yeah, right? And so the march bought a lot of food from him, and then were, like, selling it to marchers that night, the next day, you know. And so that way people had stuff. We have a food truck that may or may not be with us the whole time, um, who was with us the second night and the third night, and is gonna be with us the fourth night, and then may not come back till the end.
Um, she's coming all the way from Brooklyn, and it's like, oh, this is getting a little far, right? Um, but you know, we're, we're here to support, and we've got PB&J, and, you know, we're gonna make it work.
Ella Magers: People aren't here for the food, right? Yeah. Like, we, yes, we need to sustain ourselves and we need the energy to, to march, but nobody's, you know, this is not what we're caring about.
At the same time we also have it structured so that everybody who is marching multiple days is on a team, and they have a team captain. So we've got little, little groups within our group so that people can coordinate, and we have drivers and, and, you know, for each cap- for each team. So if ne- runs need to be made to different stores or whatever, that can happen.
So yeah, it's like a w- and we're fine-tuning this machine as we go because, you know, you just didn't know until you get here how it's all gonna work and-
Gretchen Primack: Yeah, you can't ...
Ella Magers: there are cars that need to get from this place to this place, and everyone wants, you know, to do the march every day. So it's, it's quite a logistical challenge.
Mariann Sullivan: You have to write all of this down and do it while you're doing it too. Take notes because you have to put out the guide to how you do this. Because everything you're saying I'm like, "Oh my God, how did they think of that? How is this work- Like, I can't believe you put this together."
But not like everybody could put this together, so you have to publish the guide.
Gretchen Primack: Yeah. I think you're right. We do have to publish the guide.
Ella Magers: Absolutely.
Jasmin Singer: I have a couple questions. First of all, I wanna know the awareness raising that's going on, like, as you're walking. Are there, are, i- is there interest from passersby? And also, what sneakers are you wearing?
Ella Magers: We were just talking about sneakers today. I looked down and Gretchen's, uh, bottom of her shoe is, like, halfway off today.
Gretchen Primack: Like- These are, this is, like, the craptastic pair, but I actually have two other... You know, I did, like, I some research-
Ella Magers: Those are the shoe- those are the shoes you chose?
Jasmin Singer: Wait, Gretchen, can I, like no joke, can I overnight you some shoes to whatever your next sleeping arrangement is?
Gretchen Primack: Oh, you're so sweet. I actually, I got some sh- I did a little web research for, like, long-term marching, and I did buy a p- vegan obviously, of, um, ASICS. So that is what I'm mostly wearing. But then I was like, oh, these are, these are ancient New Balance walking shoes. Like, why don't I also have those?
Jasmin Singer: The offer stands, and also Ella is, like, some fitness guru anyway, so
Gretchen Primack: Yeah. Well, tell, tell them
about
Jasmin Singer: prob- you're in good hands
Ella Magers: Yeah, yeah. I'm wearing some, um, uh, they're c- called On, and they have, um, they're, they're Swiss-made, really, really good shoes. They're also waterproof. thinking about that, 'cause we have had one morning so far that, um, we were walking through the rain.
And, and so I've got also Jane with me. Oh, yeah. Um, my, my rescue. She, is she sleeping? She's sleeping, but... What, you wanna get her? Just get her. Here, I gotta get a little bit- Oh, yeah. Just do that. Do that. She's sleeping
Jasmin Singer: Oh, Jane.
Ella Magers: sleeping in bed.
Jasmin Singer: Where did she come
Ella Magers: She's a Ridglan. She's a
Jasmin Singer: She's Ridglan.
Ella Magers: Yep.
Jasmin Singer: Okay
Mariann Sullivan: She's had a wild life so far, hasn't she?
Like,
Gretchen Primack: she,
Mariann Sullivan: from
Ella Magers: yeah. she, walked like nine miles yesterday. And she's got a stroller. So I've got a, a really nice running stroller. I call it a rover, not a stroller, 'cause that's a word. Yeah. But, um, but anyway, and, and it's got like a rain cover, so I put the rain cover over it, and so she, she's still marching out.
She's a trooper.
Mariann Sullivan: If I'd known that was available, I, I would've done it.
Jasmin Singer: Um, all right, so but
Ella Magers: We could have Mariann in your stroller- Absolutely ... and then I've got Jane
in mine.
Jasmin Singer: I would, I would pay, I would pay to see that. Uh, but back to the awareness raising, like, tell, tell us a little bit about that because I would imagine there are some very populated areas you're going through, but also areas where you're telling, like, the pigeons and rabbits about what you're doing
Gretchen Primack: Yeah. Yeah. I, I... The, the path that we're on is extremely beautiful. Uh, the- our first day was not beautiful at all. It was going between Albany and Schenectady on a very busy road, right? Trash. But the, almost the whole way from now on is on an embarrassingly beautiful Erie Canal. Like, it's, it's the Empire State Trail.
It's along the Mohawk River. It's, like, ludicrously beautiful, and there's not a lot of
Mariann Sullivan: And, nice and flat too, isn't it?
Gretchen Primack: Absolutely flat, you know, and almost no people. When there are rest stops, people come out with their signs, um, and are along the road. When there's s- whenever somebody asks, we've, we printed up, um, two-sided business cards that have, like, the QR code and the website, um, so that we could be like, "Oh, what are you guys doing?
Here, we're doing a, this march, and it's for animal rights," blah, blah, blah. And we have postcards also, so people are kind of handing stuff out. And then every evening we have an event in the community. And so last night there was somebody from a local animal rescue who came and brought two adoptable dogs and talked about animal rescue in the area.
Um, and we pass out information about their shelter and wanna, you know, give them some support. And we have a kind of, like, advance team that goes into the community a little bit early and, like, starts putting stuff around and, you know. Yeah.
Ella Magers: And then we're streaming those live.
Jasmin Singer: And now you have two extra dogs, Gretch? Is that your point?
Gretchen Primack: I was serious- one of the, Val, who wears so much eyeliner. I mean, Jane wears- She's a beagle ... a lot of eyeliner. She's a beagle and she has a lot of eyeliner on. I was like, "Oh, I like that Val." And Gus, Gus was, was with us last night. That's my husband for the, and our two pitties. Um, and Gus was like, "Oh, I was playing with Val.
She's super cuddly." I was like, "You know what? She can get Val." But then El and I were talking this morning, and, uh, you know, our dogs like, we don't even need leashes with these guys. And El is like, "You cannot have a dog door with a beagle. That b- that beagle will go. You can't..." And I was like, "Okay, then it's a, then no.
Sorry Val, you have to find another
family."
Ella Magers: And, and you know what? Like, everybody seems to have a beagle story. Like somebody in everybody's life is, I've found since I've had Jane, and I've never had a beagle before, that everybody's got a beagle story. And, and Jane is ridiculously cute. Yeah. Like, she is-
Gretchen Primack: Absolutely ridiculous.
Ella Magers: Like- She, she's like a stuffed animal. I, I-
Gretchen Primack: Angeringly cute ...
Ella Magers: everybody. There is not know anybody that doesn't come up to me when I have Jane. So it's, it's great. She's such a great ambassador. And then I am able to start conversations. Um, and then we're streaming every night's event live on Unchained TV.
We've got Jamie Sassone out, um, hosting, interviewing marchers. So we're really counting on not only the awareness of the people who are passing by and in the communities that we're, but we're, we're, you know, blasting this out, and we've got our social, amazing social media team putting this out. So we're really counting- Yeah
on,
Mariann Sullivan: So everybody listening right now can be participating by, by watching and, and spreading the word.
Gretchen Primack: @MarchforAnimals is our social media handle on all the platforms, @MarchforAnimals. And then our website is marchforanimals.org. And yeah, our social media team is fierce. Oh my God. Great.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah. We got a pitch from someone, we got a pitch from someone on your, like one, one of your volunteers asking us to cover March for Animals on Our Hen House.
Mariann Sullivan: And
Gretchen Primack: Oh. Oh, h- how do you guys feel about it? Do you wanna do it? Do you wanna, do you wanna cover us?
Jasmin Singer: I'm gonna, I'm gonna think about it. You know, I'll think about it." But
Ella Magers: Do we have to beg?
Mariann Sullivan: I saw something else on, I guess, on Instagram that I absolutely loved. It was this, this much shorter, I mean, you know, I think a, a short hike, march in Colorado in support of your march. Like, people could also be doing that. Or, I
Gretchen Primack: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Yes.
Mariann Sullivan: could get together with some signs and do that, like wherever you are.
And it's just developing this whole idea of marching for the animals. I loved that.
Gretchen Primack: Especially on, if, you know, if people are like, "Hmm, I think I should do that." On September 26th, that's the day that we finish the march, and we'll do three mile, about two and a half miles, and finish at Marshall BioResources. So people in their community, we, we will be getting-
Ella Magers: If they can't come out.
Gretchen Primack: Exactly.
Ella Magers: Because number one, if you can get yourselves to Marshall BioResources on September 26th, come please. Yes. We are wanting to make that the biggest protest we could possibly make it. So number one, if people can get there. This is gonna be huge. We want you there. If you can't, and you can organize something in your community, we are having...
There, and there are many people doing this, and we've got this in the UK. Uh, we've got Save the Dogs at their Marshall BioResource. It's happening at the very same time. So if you can do something in your communities and get in touch with us, and we will put that on social media and, and so we wanna make this worldwide, and it is
Absolutely.
Jasmin Singer: I have a quick question about that. I mentioned it to someone here in Rochester, uh, and, and they said their, their, their initial response was that they were worried about getting arrested. And so can you speak directly to that?
Gretchen Primack: Absolutely nobody's getting arrested. Okay. Obviously, I cannot speak for everyone. The intention of the march is 100% public property, no arrests. This is not another Ridglan. Ridglan had an intention. That was part of it.
Arrestable offenses, you know, things that somebody could arrest us for, right? Um,
Jasmin Singer: I was planning on bringing some cocaine, but you know, I guess now
Gretchen Primack: Yeah.
Jasmin Singer: I'll leave it, I'll leave it at home.
Gretchen Primack: Well, it's up to you. I mean, you know, that's, that's on you. You're an adult. You know, no. Um, but that is not what this march is about. That is a very considered strategy. We are a 100% public property, public pressure campaign. This is not about 50 people getting arrested. This is about the whole world supporting us and the idea that this industry needs to end, right?
So we don't wanna make it about arrestees. We wanna make it about this is a problem in our society right now. We have no problem with arrestable offenses at, in, in other... You know, I, we feel like there's room for all different kinds of actions in all different kinds of movements. What we have chosen for this action is no arrests.
So your friend should feel very good about coming and not getting arrested. Yeah.
Mariann Sullivan: I mean, there's no guarantees, but you are giving as strong a policy to prevent it as you possibly can. Uh, by making it very public that that's not what we're doing here. And this brings up, I had mentioned at the beginning that I wanted to talk a little bit about, you know, the big picture, the theory of change.
Like, and I just... I have always thought that one of the really big factors that has made Open Rescue successful, one of the things that makes people pay attention is the sacrifice. The fact that these people are risking prison. It's not just what they're doing. It is the very fact that they are risking prison that makes people, like, sit up and say, "Okay, what's going on here?"
Especially when they become more familiar with these are kids, these are not, like, hardened activists or anything. These are, like, random people from all sorts of places who are willing to get arrested. And I, I think that sacrifice is so important, and I think that what you have come up with here, even though not interested in arrest, you're walking 207 miles.
It's that sacrifice. Like, the, the fact that people are willing to do that, that, like, take weeks out of their life and just walk, just to bring attention to this, I think that's the kinda thing that really makes people stop and say, "Okay, what's going on here? What are they, what are they doing to animals?
Like, i- i- are these people serious? These, they seem like nice people. There, there, there's something going on here. I need to pay attention." And that's what I think is so brilliant about this. That's not a question, it's just my opinion.
Gretchen Primack: You can call us brilliant as many times as you want. That's totally fine.
Ella Magers: And we do. We have peop- I- it is this huge sacrifice people are making to be here. And, and physically, the, the blisters and the shin splints and all those things that people get, but also people, you know, we've got somebody who runs a sanctuary, and we know how hard it is to get away from the sanctuary.
She felt this was that important to figure out how to get here for as long as she's getting here for, and taking a leadership role in this. I, I, the sacrifice is real. It's real. It's, it's true.
Gretchen Primack: Yeah, We have people coming, you know, three, the, coming from California for three days. And, you know, renting a car in, you know, from two hours away and figuring it out.
I, like, yeah, it's, it's, it's logistically, emotionally, um-
Ella Magers: Physically, all of it ...
Gretchen Primack: physically, all of it very, very difficult and, and meani- a meaningful sacrifice that people are making together, and these are ordinary folks, right?
Jasmin Singer: Mm-hmm.
Gretchen Primack: people
Mariann Sullivan: And largely women,
Gretchen Primack: a bit. Uh, yeah, I guess. It's definitely- Well, certainly it was organized by, it was something like 38 women and four men. know, something like that. Right?
Mariann Sullivan: It seems largely
Gretchen Primack: here, the, yeah- Yeah, here it's- ... it is mo- it is mostly women ... it is much more. Yeah.
Ella Magers: Yeah, much more women. Much more women
Mariann Sullivan: here, yeah.
I mean, no shade on... on... I mean, you know, like, like whoever participates is a hero. Uh, it, it's just interesting that there are some, you know, efforts that, that, uh, that when people see it, the fact that it's mostly women, I think, you know, brings it home to them that, alright, these people may be crazy, they may be nuts, but they seem to really care about this, maybe I should too
Jasmin Singer: And on that note, I wanna just go back a little bit because I wanted to ask you this at the moment you mentioned your father, Ella, uh, but the moment had kind of passed. Y- you, you told us that he was very moved by everything going on, and just based on his age, was he at all an activist, like, for Vietnam or anything, anything like that?
I'm just curious.
Ella Magers: Yeah, back in, um, those days. He actually protested the war, uh, Vietnam War, and he refused. He was going to, um, to college at the time, and he could have gotten a pass if he just said, "I'm in college." And he believed that it was, um, you know, classist, uh, a classist system, so he for- forwent his excuse and said, "I'm willing to go to jail for that."
They never ended up coming to pick him up, but he was willing to make that sacrifice.
Jasmin Singer: That's amazing.
Wow
The reason... So I wanted to ask that part, and Mariann, you know, uh, as someone who was around then as well, like feel free to weigh in on this. I just, there's something about this type of activism that I feel like hearkens back to, you know, the '60s and '70s in a way that maybe the animal protection movement is, has been losing grip of.
And, and, and this is kind of, you know, just grasping onto it. So I don't know. Mariann, what, what do you think?
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, I think it's... I mean, I, I, the o- I think that Open Rescue has had a touch of this, but it has not had the ability to attract large groups of people because of the incredible risks involved. And, and I think it's absolutely... No, I think it's absolutely vital. I think those protests, which, you know, I was at two, some of them, uh, I think they ended that war.
I, I mean, it, they changed history. I, I don't think there's any question about that. And I think this has the, has the ability to change history as well
Jasmin Singer: I wanna know what potential you all think that this can have. Um, because this is a monstrosity. I mean, this is like a e- enormous, in- herculean task and, and the number of animals being tested on is, like, incomprehensible. But can this c- can this succeed?
Ella Magers: Yeah. Well, you know, I think it's interesting with the open rescue, right? Like, some, a, a few animals get saved in many of those cases, and it brings a lot of attention. What we're also doing here is really work on changing the systems that keep these, keep animal testing going, right? So we are working with the legislation and doing calls to action with, uh, legislation and pol- politicians, and we've got politicians speaking and sending in videos.
And so we're really working on changing the systems 'cause that's what's gon- that's what it's gonna take to ultimately save all the animals, um, that are in animal testing. So I think that's one of the main things that, reasons this is different.
Gretchen Primack: Yeah. And we're in a transitional point right now because we have the technology to pivot this industry.
Not entirely at this moment, but we could just do it and make it work, right? So we can have laws change. We can have government pol- uh, it, uh, agencies change their policies and still do the work that we have to do. So we feel very confident that we can put a lot of pressure on. And we're looking a big picture.
Enormous systems that were very entrenched and seemed absolutely impossible to change, like the enslavement of human beings in the United States, can fall from moral pressure. So the numbers have to reflect the desire for that change, which is what this march is about, right? A sustained action that builds on the momentum that was already there from Ridglan and just exponentially raises it, the consciousness.
Um, and there were, uh, I, I know that there were apologists saying, "You cannot just change the system of enslavement overnight. You can't do it. The economic systems of many states in the United States and the, where we get our food from and where we get our fibers from is based in the system. You can't just change it."
Well, guess what? When your moral imperative is what it is, you say, "We will figure that shit out. This needs to end." And we are in that place right now, and really, think that we can do it. I think we're at a tipping point. I think we wanna be part of what tips it. Um, we are partnered with about 60 organizations.
We really believe in coalition. So some of those organizations have the ear of people in this government.
We need to capitalize on that right now. You know?
Mariann Sullivan: And it is very easy to overlook, uh, for people to overlook or for the industry to claim that what they're doing is absolutely necessary. But you're right, this is the moment where maybe it used to be nec- necessary, at least for some purposes, but things have changed and they keep doing it because, because that's what they're used to doing and because they're making a lot of money doing it.
Gretchen Primack: There's a lot of system. There's ca- you know, somebody's building all the cages. Somebody's building the water dishes that go in those cages. Somebody's, you know, tran- building the equipment that sh- that takes them fr- to the airport and puts them in the airplane. Somebody drives that, you know, pilots that airplane.
You know, it's, it's very entrenched.
Jasmin Singer: Do you think, Gretchen, that there's the poetry book that will also be the result of this march?
Gretchen Primack: Oh, it's funny because I, I have to put on my poetry brain because tonight's activity is that I will be reading from Kind.
And trying-
Ella Magers: She's got some fans here, by the way. Oh my gosh. She's quoting one of the women that we were just riding with, uh, was quoting Gretchen's book. And she was like, "I can't believe you're in the car with me."
Mariann Sullivan: Oh my God,
Mariann Sullivan: I love that
Ella Magers: Yeah, so Gretchen's done reading.
Gretchen Primack: Yeah, I'm gonna do a li- a little reading tonight, so I have to, like, put that hat on. But oh, I mean, we'll see. I, I feel a little bit in a fallow period when it comes to writing and, um, sort of rethinking my relationship to poetry and stuff.
But I still feel very passionately about Kind, and I wanted to stay in the world and go, uh, you know, go into the world. Um, but yeah, it's a, it's a good question. I hadn't really thought about it, you know? And Ella will also be... So tonight is, like, you know, the lead organizer's night. So I'm gonna do some reading, and then Ella will do some chatting about, like, her story and her h- her history.
You know, Ella was seven when she was like, "I'm not eating animals anymore," and she was 15 when she went vegan. And so she's 31 years vegan and, you know, she's got a great story, and so she'll be talking about that. It's Founders' night!
Jasmin Singer: So great. That's so cool. I, I wish I could be there for that.
Mariann Sullivan: Can I just add a... Yeah, no, that sounds amazing, but I, I, I'm, I, I wanna move on probably because I forgot to say something, and I really wanna go back to it, because something you said really struck me. You said, like, we're at the point where we could replace all of this, so that's why the moment is now.
We are approaching that point with food, too. We really are. I w- and, and this, I mean, this is about the dogs, and some people are there for the dogs, and it's about the research, and some people are there because they're against animal research. But really, this has all the seeds that are important in growing a movement for all of the animals.
I mean, including the food animals. It, it, it's a starting point
Gretchen Primack: Well, I think about it. So dogs are like the gateway into animal experimentation- On any animals. And animal experimentation is the gateway into vegan. Is the gateway into food. Because, well, you're gonna say that, you know, this ca- I mean, Marshall BioResources is a factory farm. It's just a factory farm where the animals end up in a different hell.
Right. Right? So you know, people have to start thinking this way. So it's not okay for that species to be in that cage, but it is okay. Like, it's so not okay that I will march 207 miles or I will, you know, do the calls to action every night on that. But this one is okay. Come on.
Ella Magers: And yeah, and I, I was, you know, in my, in my talk at Marshall, I mean, sorry, at, uh, in Albany.
I kind of, and this is what I'm kind of doing with my stuff, is just working in little bits at a time. It's like just planting the seeds for these people who obviously care about dogs. Some of them care about more than dogs, but kind of just working in those seeds. And it's, it, we saw what it did in Ridgland.
We saw so many people turn vegan after that. One of our lead organizers- Yeah ... in this is, like, hardcore all about it now. She was completely clueless, meat eater, everything before Ridgland. So we're s- we're seeing those seeds get planted. And because I think the leadership is vegan, because the leadership was vegan in Ridgland.
You know, and we're not here for the food, but we are working that in. You know, it's, it's a way that people are here with an open heart. And I think that open heart for the dogs, getting worked in these little seeds, is really the way, instead of, like, a pressure, you know. It's not- Yeah ... it's, it's really brilliant.
Mariann Sullivan: It's allowing people to, to grow into this on their own and in their own speed, just giving them the material instead of, like, ex- explaining to them why, why something they're doing is wrong. I mean, it's so powerful, I think.
And, uh, it's actions. Actions speak louder than words.
Ella Magers: Mm-hmm. And we're, we're sitting here and all of us, even non-vegans and vegans alike, are saying, "Until every cage is empty," right? And in their heads they're thinking until every animal experimentation cage is empty. My head is, every time I say that, it's every cage with the food empty.
And so we are working that, again, it's like working that in, like, like connecting those dots, and people, people are connecting those dots. Yeah. And we can't, we can't help it, right? Because our philosophy is the vegan philosophy, we can't help it when we're speaking. In both of our speeches at, in Albany, right, 'cause we, we opened it up, right?
Like, we were the first people to, to speak. Um, we can't help but be like, "This is about animals." Like, we never are like, "This is about dogs."
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, of course. Yeah
Gretchen Primack: I mean, we, we have dogs on our shirts, on our backs, or all of the other animals that get experimented on, you know? Oh. That's it. Yeah. Just grabbing the...
That's the...
Jasmin Singer: I love
Mariann Sullivan: Oh, yeah. I love
it. Yeah
Jasmin Singer: our, tell our, tell our listeners what that is in case they're not watching.
Ella Magers: Oh, right. Oh, sorry. Yes, it's our, um, one of our logos. We got two logos, and it's our website, marchforanimals.org, with a row of, uh, all, many, some of the top animals that get tested on, including fish, including birds, um, pigs, rabbits. Oops. All the things.
Gretchen Primack: Mm-hmm. Mice, rats. Yeah. You know, and then, uh, the actor Alison Pill, um, who's a close friend of mine, she, she was speaking at the Albany rally, and I, I asked her to talk about rats because she has rescue rats.
You know, she and her daughter have, have rescue rats that, who they're very, very passionate about. And so she could talk about the smarts and the amazingness of rats to this group of people who are there for dogs, and get them thinking, right? I mean, and she was marvelous. If you can go, um, to, to her, I, I think it's iamthepill is her Instagram handle.
Um, but you can see her, her speech online, and probably at March for Animals, too.
Jasmin Singer: Yeah, it is there. Uh, th- that is, that's great.
Mariann Sullivan: You know, the, every time one of these, um, really passionate dog people opens up to other animals, it, it's like, it's like 50 other people opening up to animals because these people are unbelievable. Like, the devotion and the, the passion, like, that you get, and, and it, it, there... I mean, I don't want to sound like I think they're not the heroes.
I think they are the heroes. It's just, uh, finding a way to communicate about other animals is so important that that doesn't act as if we don't recognize that what these people do is extraordinary. Like, the passion of dog people is like nobody else. I mean, they work at it all the time. They rescue these dogs who are just a fucking pain in the ass, like, and, and get them to...
Like, the amount of energy that dog people put into it is extraordinary. Like, I, I, I would trust them to, uh, to, to, to accomplish anything
Jasmin Singer: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and on that note, uh, since we have to let you go finish your little, your little walkabout, uh, how can people, how can people find you online and support you? Just tell us again where all the places are.
Ella Magers: Marchforanimals.org is our website. You'll see our socials on there, but our handle is real simple, March For Animals, that's F-O-R, not the number four, on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, TikTok, all the thing, all the platforms we're on. And, uh, yeah, we're, we're, we're doing a great job with, with sharing this journey on Instagram, and then watching us live on Unchained TV.
They, um, YouTube is probably the easiest way. They also have an app, and we stream live pretty much for the next, um, uh, 10-ish days at 5:30 PM Eastern Time on Unchained TV. You can join, join live and watch those evening events.
Jasmin Singer: Wonderful. Well, Ella, Gretchen, thank you so much for, you know, taking time to rest your sore, sore feet with us today and just sharing some of your passion. I, I don't know if you realize this, but when you first started talking, Gretchen, and you said that you all got in a circle every day if there, like, there's 50 people or whatever, I like, I just started crying.
Like I, like immediately when you started talking because I'm so moved and grateful for all that you're doing and, and all that everyone is doing to show up for this. And, um, you know, we'll see you at, we'll see you at this end of it, um, which we're looking forward to.
Ella Magers: This is all because of guys, really.
Gretchen Primack: Yeah, I want...
Mariann Sullivan: Yeah, it, we get all the credit. Yeah.
Gretchen Primack: Everybody understands that I heard Adam Durand on Our Hen House. He was talking about going back to Ridglan. I bought a plane ticket to Wisconsin. I got pumped up and hyped up, thought up this idea.
Ella hears me on Our Hen House, right? Without Our Hen House, this does not happen.
Ella Magers: That's true.
Gretchen Primack: Full stop.
Mariann Sullivan: Oh, that
Jasmin Singer: That's incredibly generous. I,
Mariann Sullivan: But it is a little
Gretchen Primack: No, it is true. It's a fact.
Jasmin Singer: Well, all right. Okay, well, th- thanks. Thank you. Um, I appreciate that. I,
Mariann Sullivan: No, I'm taking all the credit.
Jasmin Singer: I recognize the value that Our Hen House brings to the world. I feel like Our Hen House is, like, its own entity, you know? And, and so I appreciate what Our Hen House does just as much as everyone else does.
It's like it- it's its own kind of thing, working its way through, uh, animal advocacy brains and minds and hearts, and so I'm grateful for that, grateful for you. Grateful for you if you're listening or viewing or, you know, intuiting this episode. I don't know. Uh, don't forget to subscribe, like, comment, all those things.
Uh, feel free to go to ourhenhouse.org/support if you have the means and become a flock member. We, we have our flock members here as well. Uh, and, and we are also always looking for fun ways to add perks to the flock membership, so thank you. And we'll talk to both of you soon.
Gretchen Primack: Thank you!
Mariann Sullivan: Stay safe.
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